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Road building 101 · Talking Michigan Transportation

0:07
Jeff Cranson: Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast.
0:10
Jeff Cranson: I'm Jeff Cranson.
0:11
Jeff Cranson: There's been a lot of discussion recently about how roads are built.
0:18
Jeff Cranson: This comes up every couple years when we turn over legislators and we have new committees forming that have members that want to understand these things and delve into products and materials and all the things that go into road building.
0:32
Jeff Cranson: This becomes an especially hot topic when road funding is being discussed and thankfully, road funding is being discussed again right now proposals both from the governor and from some lawmakers and a lot of conversation and negotiation going on, and that can only be a good thing.
0:51
Jeff Cranson: We hope that there's going to be some kind of long-term fix and some kind of funding solutions and things are being shuffled.
0:59
Jeff Cranson: So I wanted to talk to Jason Gutting, who is the head of the Bureau of Field Services for MDOT, which oversees a lot of things, including construction, and talk to him about some of those questions and the myths about materials and whether Michigan does things in some drastically different way from other states.
1:16
Jeff Cranson: So I hope you enjoy the conversation.
1:20
Jeff Cranson: Once again, I'm with Jason Gutting, who is the director of the Bureau of Field Services at MDOT.
1:26
Jeff Cranson: That pretty much means he oversees several units within that bureau, everything from construction statewide construction to statewide maintenance and safety and some other things.
1:39
Jeff Cranson: Jason, thank you for taking time to be here.
1:42
Jason Gutting: Absolutely my pleasure, Jeff
1:44
Jeff Cranson: So I wanted to talk to you because it's that time of year in the two-year cycle where various legislative committees and new lawmakers are trying to understand, making an earnest effort to get their brains around everything that goes into road building and it seems like it might be simple on the surface, but it's not.
2:09
Jeff Cranson: There's a lot of complicated things and first, I guess to do a little bit of a reset I think this is your second time on the podcast I had you on when you were promoted to head up the Bureau.
2:20
Jeff Cranson: Talk a little bit round out, I guess, what I said about the Bureau of Field Services and everything it does.
2:27
Jason Gutting: Yeah, you were exactly correct.
2:28
Jason Gutting: Our two primary areas, like you mentioned, are statewide construction efforts and our system operations and management unit, which is in itself a big area.
2:41
Jason Gutting: That includes our intelligent transportation systems, traffic signals, maintenance operations, which really includes a lot of other things, rest areas and the snowplow drivers that you see, the mowing operations that are contracted out, and then we also have in our bureau, the research administration area, which is a fantastic area to ensure that we are on staying on the cutting edge of research practices and investment in our pavements and materials in those processes.
3:07
Jason Gutting: and our fourth area is safety and security which is focused on occupational safety as well as safety of our facilities filming big bridges and safety at those large bridges and large facilities.
3:38
Jeff Cranson: So one of the things we hear a lot and it comes up every time that there's talks about funding and we're thrilled that there is serious discussion going on about a longer term road funding plan but is about Michigan's roads fall apart faster than other states because we don't use the right materials or, you know, we don't oversee contractors appropriately.
4:01
Jeff Cranson: You've heard all the litany of things and my simple answer to that, when people talk about it, is you know there are national standards, you know we have to follow things that the Federal Highway Administration puts down and they might give some leeway in terms of flexibility, because every state's different and soils are different and there are other variables, but overall there are certain specifications and standards.
4:24
Jeff Cranson: So I mean talk about that and I guess if Ohio or Indiana or any other state broke the code, of course we would do whatever they do, right?
4:33
Jason Gutting: Yeah, that's exactly correct and just to play on that real quick, is there's a national association of the DOTs that we're a part of.
4:43
Jason Gutting: There are regional associations of that same group that we're a part of and we talk.
4:51
Jason Gutting: We talk to all the other DOT experts.
4:53
Jason Gutting: Now, while the United States has different geology makeups and weather makeups, it's still similar materials in every area and we talk about best practices etc.
5:05
Jason Gutting: That same group, the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials, coordinates and puts out testing standards for materials that all states follow.
5:19
Jason Gutting: The federal government has requirements that all states must follow as well.
5:24
Jason Gutting: We coordinate with our division office.
5:26
Jason Gutting: But we also talk to our states.
5:28
Jason Gutting: Like I mentioned previously, If there's a magic elixir or if there's something that's working well in one state, we share that across our forums and say, hey, this is working really well for us.
5:40
Jason Gutting: It might work down in a sunbelt area.
5:43
Jason Gutting: It's a little more dynamic up with our states because of freeze-thaw and the cold weather.
5:49
Jason Gutting: We see that a southern Florida may not see or a New Mexico, etc.
5:55
Jason Gutting: But there is an immense amount of coordination with monthly meetings and yearly conferences to coordinate things nationally to make sure that we're all utilizing the best practices, because the standards and the specifications that are put out are similar across the nation.
6:16
Jeff Cranson: So talk a little bit more about the materials and the research and how you're always open when somebody comes up with an idea which you get solicited often from people whether it's a different kind of aggregate or flexible concrete or those kinds of things and why it's so difficult to implement something new like that and why the testing takes time.
6:41
Jason Gutting: Yeah, that's a great point, Jeff.
6:42
Jason Gutting: We have a very thorough new materials process that we've engaged over the years.
6:48
Jason Gutting: To make sure that we're transparent, it is posted on our website.
6:53
Jason Gutting: It's a process to follow.
6:55
Jason Gutting: There's a form to fill out so we know where to vet things.
6:58
Jason Gutting: We are trying to ensure that we are using taxpayer money efficiently and effectively and as part of that, we like tried and true materials that have performed well over the years.
7:13
Jason Gutting: We research the items that we've placed.
7:15
Jason Gutting: We research new items that are coming up as suggestions from other areas to ensure that we're going to have long-term performance.
7:24
Jason Gutting: The challenge with that is long-term performance and research for that takes time.
7:30
Jason Gutting: So if someone comes up with a new process or a new material or some other building technique, we want to make sure that that is thoroughly vetted for application down the road, because we design our pavements for 20 years and we want to make sure that this process is going to last that whole period of time.
7:50
Jason Gutting: So we need to pilot it, we need to monitor performance, we need to report on that, we need to coordinate with other areas, other states, to make sure that the performance is what we expect in the short term, and that predictive analysis is there for long-term performance of those materials as well.
8:16
Jeff Cranson: And what goes into that.
8:17
Jeff Cranson: I mean somebody shows up and says you know, we got this thing, and my memory is that what's often the case is that they found something that might actually work on a less traveled you know city street, like a subdivision street or a parking lot, but there's no way it's going to work on a state trunk line with the kind of traffic volumes and kind of weights it's dealing with.
8:34
Jason Gutting: Yeah, that's going to be on a closer caliber to the volumes that we have on trunk lines.
8:50
Jason Gutting: In many cases it's ideal if they've tried it on a local agency facility versus a parking lot or a private facility, just because the traffic volume is not there, and then we can pilot it on maybe a lower volume facility or something that's a little closer to a maintenance garage so we can monitor it a little closer.
9:17
Jason Gutting: And, like I said, the scale of application is definitely controlled.
9:23
Jason Gutting: I mean, we're not going to take a new thing and put it on our highest volume interstates I-75, 96, 94, right away.
9:32
Jason Gutting: That just wouldn't be appropriate management of our transportation facility.
9:37
Jason Gutting: So we'll want to scale up, as we're trying that product from a lower volume facility to a higher volume facility.
9:45
Jeff Cranson: We will continue the conversation right after a quick break.
9:53
MDOT Message: Even with the best planning, backups and traffic congestion can occur during road construction.
9:58
MDOT Message: This can pose hazardous situations for both motorists and construction workers, particularly when drivers are distracted.
10:05
MDOT Message: Motorists are more likely than workers to be killed or injured in work zone related incidents.
10:11
MDOT Message: Additionally, the leading causes of all work zone related crashes are distracted driving and speeding.
10:17
MDOT Message: So it's crucial to do your part in ensuring the safety of both drivers and focusing on your most important task safe driving.
10:24
MDOT Message: Slow down and stay focused.
10:29
Jeff Cranson: Something else that I think is sometimes misunderstood is the low bid process and why contractors are selected based on that.
10:39
Jeff Cranson: Could you talk about that?
10:41
Jason Gutting: Yes, and you are absolutely correct.
10:44
Jason Gutting: The federal government requires low bid acquisition for contractors on our projects.
10:51
Jason Gutting: We do have a best value process.
10:54
Jason Gutting: That has been used rarely for some unique project situations where there were considerations that need to come into play, that we wanted to evaluate the contractors on other aspects other than cost.
11:11
Jason Gutting: So cost was included in the best value.
11:14
Jason Gutting: It's just not the sole factor in determining low bid and low bid has worked well for us.
11:22
Jason Gutting: It is actually obviously the most financially prudent for the taxpayers.
11:26
Jason Gutting: We do have a lifecycle cost analysis project and part of that with our projects is we may have a project that is so close in pavement design that it's considered an alternate pavement bid project, which means both paving industries with their contractor partners will bid on that project and the low bid will actually be whichever of the two paving materials has the lowest equivalent annual cost.
12:03
Jeff Cranson: Yeah, tell me how that's calculated, the annual cost.
12:06
Jason Gutting: So we evaluate the projects and the bids from each of the contractors using the different materials and what we take into account is the actual cost of the materials now, as well as a factor for the maintenance cost of those materials, based on historic performance and maintenance costs that we have experienced.
12:29
Jason Gutting: That's put into an equation, so there's multiple varials placed into this equation, which gives us this equivalent annual uniform cost, and whoever has the lowest of that value will be the successful bidder on those projects.
12:46
Jeff Cranson: Okay, so what I've come to learn is that there are some very passionate advocates for concrete pavements and some very passionate advocates for asphalt pavements.
12:58
Jeff Cranson: I'm not asking you to take a side in this, but tell me the best arguments for both.
13:07
Jason Gutting: You know, both paving materials have their place and provide appropriate long-term durability for our roads.
13:18
Jason Gutting: In Michigan Concrete pavements are historically very successful with high-volume commercial traffic and the support they can provide.
13:29
Jason Gutting: Asphalt industry is the same.
13:35
Jason Gutting: With that they can provide that same performance.
13:36
Jason Gutting: But historically you'll see the cost because of maintenance costs and pavement costs.
13:41
Jason Gutting: Concrete pavements will be the successful bidder in the high commercial traffic corridors of the state, as I had mentioned earlier, being I-75 and I-94 segments of the roadway.
13:58
Jason Gutting: Asphalt has typically, on some of the lower volume routes, has had more successful bidding opportunities there just because of lower maintenance costs that's been experienced in the last several years and those are very dynamic costs.
14:15
Jason Gutting: So I definitely want to, because I'm assuming I'm going to get a lot of friend calls from this podcast from each of the industries telling me a few things.
14:25
Jason Gutting: But obviously either industry does well It'll depend on project location and how close they can have plants to the facilities.
14:33
Jason Gutting: There are so many aspects that go into those bidding costs and we've seen, you know, on a project where we thought one industry was going to be easily the successful candidate, the other industry came out and won that project for numerous reasons that we don't know.
14:51
Jason Gutting: You know, came out and won that project for numerous reasons that we don't know.
14:54
Jason Gutting: You know better logistical path chain, et cetera, location to the project site, another project that's adjacent suppliers, et cetera.
15:00
Jason Gutting: It is always very unique and is always very exciting to see who is winning those contracts because, like I said previously, it is for the advantage of all of us taxpayers in being efficient with that money.
15:14
Jeff Cranson: Absolutely.
15:14
Jeff Cranson: I think that while the driving public sees trucks, various logos and things for the myriad contractors that do the road work around the state, they still aren't aware that the roads are built by private industry.
15:31
Jeff Cranson: They still aren't aware that the roads are built by private industry.
15:34
Jeff Cranson: Talk about oversight and what MDOT's role is on any of these projects.
15:40
Jason Gutting: Yeah, that's an excellent point as well.
15:41
Jason Gutting: So MDOT doesn't have the forces to build and reconstruct these roadways.
15:47
Jason Gutting: We do, as you mentioned, Jeff, contract out all those to private vendors, private contractors, to do that work and then we, as the owner agency of all the trunk line routes in the state, oversee that work per our procedures that are approved by the FHWA, coordinated with the national standards, et cetera.
16:11
Jason Gutting: So you'll see an MDOT individual or a consultant we may hire out on the facilities, monitoring the activities, recording information materials, equipment that's being used and then reporting pay items so we can reimburse the contractor for the work they complete.
16:33
Jason Gutting: Our specific direct force individuals are focused on maintenance activities, which I had mentioned previously could be pothole patching repairs.
16:46
Jason Gutting: We have concrete pavement repairs.
16:48
Jason Gutting: They're kind of more of what I would define as a SWAT team to fix things that are immediate need.
16:54
Jason Gutting: That might be a little more reasonable for our staff, but once we get into even larger things then they can handle.
17:01
Jason Gutting: We contract all that work out.
17:04
Jeff Cranson: So I know you've done a number of things at MDOT before you made your way to this position, so you know what it's like in the field.
17:12
Jeff Cranson: I think you know there's some people under their perception that the contractors pretty much have carte blanche to do what they want on a project.
17:22
Jeff Cranson: Can you talk about what it's like to be an inspector, overseeing it and day to day you know, making sure that they're following standards and procedures but also getting things done on time?
17:34
Jason Gutting: Oh, absolutely.
17:35
Jason Gutting: There's a lot of pressure on those individuals.
17:37
Jason Gutting: We have a lot of time commitments to local agencies and to the public to get things open, so there's a lot of pressure felt.
17:45
Jason Gutting: There's a lot of fast-moving traffic in those work zones.
17:49
Jason Gutting: That's the one thing I'd ask the listeners to focus on is just watch your speed and put away any distractions that may be in your vehicle when you're going through a work zone.
18:01
Jason Gutting: We really appreciate that in the bigger picture for our safety and for your safety as well.
18:07
Jason Gutting: But again, there is a lot of focus on those inspectors to ensure that the work being completed is in alignment with our required specifications and you know work that deviates from that is not completed.
18:23
Jason Gutting: Extra work that the contractor might want to get paid for that we don't need is not incorporated.
18:28
Jason Gutting: So they will focus intensely on ensuring that the work completed matches our details.
18:37
Jason Gutting: We have matches the contract documents.
18:40
Jason Gutting: We have our plan documents.
18:42
Jason Gutting: There's numerous sources of information that an inspector has to check in the field.
18:47
Jason Gutting: At the same time, the work is being performed and that can be very intense while they're also engaging with the public that you know, maybe in a city, reconstruct that as stopped and talked with them, or walking down you know concrete barrier wall on a highway project while traffic is passing by at highway speeds right next to them.
19:09
Jason Gutting: It can be an extremely intense situation for those individuals.
19:14
Jeff Cranson: Yeah, I think simulations you've seen various public service announcements that some departments have done that portray you working at your desk in an office and having a cargo bite 80 miles an hour.
19:25
Jeff Cranson: That really kind of drives the point home what you're talking about.
19:29
Jeff Cranson: So one other thing you talked about we talked a little bit about materials that go into the roads and the standards and the uniformity you also get solicited for various you know winter products, ice melting products, whether it's brine, or you know other agricultural products, similar things when it comes to testing and seeing if it can be done at scale.
19:55
Jeff Cranson: But can you talk a little bit about that and why it's just not as easy as it sounds.
20:00
Jason Gutting: Yes, that is a.
20:01
Jason Gutting: That's another great aspect there is.
20:04
Jason Gutting: There's there's a lot of discussion in, you know, our environment that trying to use byproducts of other processes in a commercially advantageous way, if not obviously a beneficial way.
20:20
Jason Gutting: So we've been approached by farmers asking for byproducts.
20:29
Jason Gutting: Can you use this byproduct to help melt ice or provide additional traction, et cetera?
20:34
Jason Gutting: And those are evaluated in the same way.
20:38
Jason Gutting: A construction material is obviously on a smaller scale to ensure that it does work, a longer term performance.
20:45
Jason Gutting: And then there's characteristics we have to evaluate, such as runoff.
20:49
Jason Gutting: What is it going to do to the environment when it gets into the ditches or gets into closed sewer systems and runs down to wastewater treatment plants?
20:58
Jason Gutting: And then we have to evaluate the cost.
21:01
Jason Gutting: It might be reasonable on a very small scale, a single road, but when you talk about MDOT buying thousands, of thousands of tons of product across the state through statewide contracts, it can be a substantial amount of money if something is several dollars more than the next available product.
21:21
Jason Gutting: So all of those factors will come into play.
21:24
Jeff Cranson: So that's good.
21:25
Jeff Cranson: Thanks for explaining that.
21:26
Jeff Cranson: One last question I like to hear how different people answer this, different civil engineers especially.
21:32
Jeff Cranson: Why do bridges freeze before roads?
21:36
Jason Gutting: You know that's an interesting question because I see that sign.
21:39
Jason Gutting: I just drove down south and back and I saw the states and different signages for that bridge may ice earlier than roadway, watch for ice on bridge, et cetera.
21:53
Jason Gutting: And the reason is the underside can stay cool as the top side will.
22:01
Jason Gutting: So on a road you have the geothermal warming that keeps that warmer than a bridge can, because a bridge is cold on each side of it, so there's no insulating qualities there that the road would have.
22:16
Jason Gutting: So you're inherently going to get something that's a platform, freezing faster than something that is attached to the earth, which takes a lot longer to cool and heat each season I think that's a good explanation.
22:31
Jeff Cranson: I I always I think of it in terms of geothermal heating systems and why.
22:35
Jeff Cranson: When you go what I don't know a couple feet below the surface, the ground in at least in Michigan, I think is about 54 degrees year round.
22:44
Jason Gutting: Absolutely Yep.
22:45
Jason Gutting: My basement is a lot cooler in the summer, so yeah, yeah.
22:50
Jeff Cranson: Well, thanks, Jason, that's good, it's interesting and I always appreciate talking to you about these things and I'm sure we'll do it again.
22:57
Jason Gutting: Absolutely.
22:58
Jason Gutting: Thank you, Jeff.
22:59
Jeff Cranson: I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation.
23:02
Jeff Cranson: You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout.
23:07
Jeff Cranson: I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and Jackie Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.