Latest / Marci talks money (and life) / Learning Financial Literacy Through a Board Game | Bostic Poindexter
Transcript
- Marci Grossman (00:01) Hello, I am MoneyMarci. Welcome. I'm thrilled to welcome today's guest, Bostic Poindexter. Bostic is a technology entrepreneur and financial literacy advocate with nearly two decades of experience studying financial systems, incentives, and money mechanics. Self-taught in financial literacy and economics, Bostic spent over seven years at Hewlett Packard Enterprise, where he learned how large scale systems, negotiation, and capital where he learned how large-scale systems, negotiation, and capital actually move. He built The Road to Financial Freedom after realizing most people are working hard, doing everything right, and still falling behind because no one ever taught them how the system works. His work focuses on clarity over hype, education over speculation, and building tools that create lasting behavior change. Welcome Bostic. Bostic Poindexter (01:00) Hello, Marci. Thank you for having me. Marci Grossman (01:02) Well, I'm so excited to talk to you. I haven't talked to anyone that invented a game before. But let's start with, how did you get here? What was your background before you self-studied financial literacy and economics? Bostic Poindexter (01:17) Well, I started out working in call centers, but I had always been in corporate America all the way from Comcast to Verizon, which eventually landed me at Hewlett Packard Enterprise. At Hewlett Packard Enterprise, they taught us to be self-sufficient and to run our own business. At Hewlett Packard Enterprise is where I learned how a business is actually run. And I used to bring up ideas to my managers and upper management and say, hey, look, we should do this this way or we should change this system. And it got to the point where I felt like I was being ignored. And I thought to myself, I could just create my own company. And so that's what landed me here. ⁓ And that's what created Pondexter Digital. Marci Grossman (02:04) Okay, well What made you interested in the financial literacy and the economics of it? Lots of people run businesses for their idea without necessarily having that financial part of the basis. Bostic Poindexter (02:17) Yes. So when during COVID, I remember being sent home from work, you know, when everybody was sent home from the pandemic. And I remember coming home because I wasn't paying attention to COVID. I didn't know much about it. And I turned on the news and I remember a newscaster coming across the screen and saying, hey, we don't know how long we're going to be on lockdown. If I were you, I would be using this time to learn something new. And I thought to myself, I've always wanted to learn about money, learn about finance, and learn about stocks and the finances. And I just started watching YouTube and started watching videos and I started reading books and it just took me down a rabbit hole and I just started learning more and more. And it got to the point where I even found Bitcoin. When I found Bitcoin, I learned even more about finance and how money works and how the government ⁓ prints money and gets it to the people. And so, I just was fascinated by the subject. Marci Grossman (03:18) Okay. And you have very strong feelings about where people's challenges from money come from. Was money something you talked about growing up? Was it something your family had conversations about? Bostic Poindexter (03:36) No, it was definitely something that we never talked about. Also, I would see it in the workplace where companies, especially major corporations, would always say, do not discuss your salary with other employees. And I'm like, why is that? Because I'm the type of person that's very curious. I'm always asking why. I will do it, but I want to know why. What's my reason? And so we never talked about it with my family, and we never talked about it in the corporate world also. I started to, when the world slowed down, I was starting to see the cracks in the system. And that's what caused me to learn more about it and also want to teach people about the cracks in the system and why you're falling behind and why ⁓ just helping them understand finance. Marci Grossman (04:26) Okay, so what was the first thing that you learned? What was the first thing that sticks with you that says, yeah, I'm on the right path. This is something that makes sense that I can go forward with this. Bostic Poindexter (04:41) The first, say that one more time, what the first, what? Marci Grossman (04:44) The first financial thing you learned, so you went down this rabbit hole after COVID started and you started reading these books and watching the videos, I'm assuming there was a point in time where some, whether it was a fact or a piece of knowledge that was like a key turning in a lock that said, oh yeah, this is the right place for me right now. Bostic Poindexter (05:03) I think it was first I started buying stocks and once I started buying stocks, it led me to options and I had a 2008 Nissan Altima and I sold it for $3,000 and I said, instead of putting this $3,000 in the bank, I'll take this $3,000 and I'll go put it in the market. And so I bought some options and I bought it on a Friday and the next that Monday morning when the stock market opened, it shot up to like $27,000, $25,000, something like that. I was like, whoa, what is this? And so I sold and I was like, I can't believe I just made this much money this fast. And so I thought I was being smart and I tried to stretch it out across three other options which were Apple, Amazon, and I think Tesla. And next thing you know, I lost like $20,000 just like that. And I said to myself, if you can make money this fast, I need to at least understand how this works. And so I started learning more and more about options, stock market, ⁓ the way money works. And it just, like I said, it just took me down that rabbit hole. Marci Grossman (06:20) Yeah, and that goes through to learning through experience. ⁓ Bostic Poindexter (06:25) Mm-hmm. Was it an experience. I couldn't sleep for like three weeks after this Marci Grossman (06:32) Yeah, So did you talk to anyone about this? Did you invest in the stock market on your own or did you have someone you kind of bounced it off of or you just dove in the pool? Bostic Poindexter (06:43) Trial by fire, just like in the corporate world. Just throw you out there to the wolves and you'll learn it. I think that my background being from Mississippi, we always taught to persevere. Like we feel like we can get through anything, especially like going through things like Katrina. like there isn't anything I feel like I can't do. So learning about finance was just another challenge for me. And so that's why I kept going, kept going down that right up. rabbit hole because I love learning learning learning new things and meeting new people so Marci Grossman (07:15) Okay, And since your family hadn't talked about money then and these things that you're learning and your whole journey to create The Road to Financial Freedom ⁓ is now all about talking about money, how was your family when you said, okay, now we're gonna start talking about money? Bostic Poindexter (07:32) Well, they love the fact that when we put the game together, when I put the game together, all the conversations that were about money was not like, much money do you have? How much money do you have in the bank? What do you own? It wasn't anything like that. It was, what is fractional reserve banking? What is ⁓ the interest rates set by the federal government right now? ⁓ It was just those type of questions and it just challenges your knowledge because these things affect our paycheck. They affect our daily lives and we need to know these things but most people are usually just caught up in the politics. They're not thinking about what the Federal Reserve does or what the Treasury, the US Treasury does that also affects your paycheck. Marci Grossman (08:24) Okay, and I don't think I said it ⁓ earlier, but the Road to Financial Freedom is a game that Bostic created so that people can learn about financial literacy by playing this game so you can have fun and have the experiences through it. ⁓ Tell us about the creating the game and the gameplay. Bostic Poindexter (08:48) I stayed up many, many, many nights revising, writing questions, play testing it with friends and family, and just getting feedback. And I think what hit me was when I said to myself, OK, not only do people need to learn, they need to have fun while they're learning. So that's what helped me create. Throughout the game, there are two different ⁓ scenarios. There is the real life scenarios and then there's the high risk, high reward. The real life scenarios are just things that actually happen in real life that you don't expect. Or it could just be just real life things that happen. And just a few weeks ago when we were in New Orleans and some girls were playing and they didn't know about divorce and they pulled the real life scenario card and it said you were in love but the love didn't last. You've now been divorced. Pay half of your savings over to the bank. And she was like, is that what divorce is? And we just had a long dialogue about divorce. And it just opened their eyes up to real life scenarios. And then there's another aspect of the game, which is called high risk, high reward, which it challenges your thoughts about money. It may say, hey, what is the highest credit score you can receive? And a lot of people don't know that. And so that's. that's what it teaches you to learn about those things that you really should know about and you should be aiming towards to help you with financial literacy and lead you to financial freedom. Marci Grossman (10:22) So is this the kind of game that someone wins and loses? Bostic Poindexter (10:26) Yes, so the winner is the first one to achieve financial freedom, which is at the end of the board. And the more the way the game is designed, the more you know about money. And also, real life happens. Nobody can avoid that rich, poor, or middle class. And so there are little small things that you cannot predict that happens to everyone that affects all of us. But the goal of the game is to achieve financial freedom. So the more and more you know about money, the better chance you have of achieving financial freedom. So the more and more you play the game, the more and more you know about finance and the better chance you have of achieving financial freedom. Marci Grossman (11:08) Okay, and I love the fact that this is a game you play with other people, so it gives you a chance to have conversations about, as you said, like divorce and whatever else, because depending on someone's situation, there may be things that they've never heard of and there may be things that they know really well, so playing the game and watching someone else play the game and have the conversations gives you an opportunity to... to start getting away from that stigma of talking about money, oh we shouldn't talk about money. Bostic Poindexter (11:41) Right, exactly. And I think that, like I said, I think that we should be talking about money. ⁓ Because especially with all the information that we have these days with social media, and now you have AI, this is the time to start asking those questions. So what we've done with the high risk, high rewards, and also the real life scenarios within the game is we implemented a QR code on the top of each card. So let's say if you get that question about what's the highest credit score you can receive, you can scan the QR code if you didn't know the answer, and it pulls up the AI model, Harriet, and Harriet will tell you the answer. So the next time you play the game, you would know that the highest credit score you can get is an 850. Marci Grossman (12:26) That's cool. So You brought up AI. So how do you feel that AI is impacting financial literacy, the economy, the various aspects of money? Bostic Poindexter (12:28) Thank you. I think when used in a positive way, it could definitely help with budgeting. It could help with learning about how the government works with money. ⁓ You could learn about credit cards and credit card points and just using it as a tool for good. And that's what we've done with this game. Marci Grossman (12:59) Okay. Now, I imagine that you've played with different people in different financial situations. Does it make them overwhelmed when they pull cards that are related to what's happening to them or related to things that might be happening to them or things that they knew nothing about and my God, there's another boogeyman that could come out and impact my finances? Bostic Poindexter (13:27) No, I haven't seen that. But what I have seen is there was a girl who was playing the game and the card was about buy now pay later. And it also talked about borrowing money. And one of the things that the girl said was, I do not want to be like my parents because they have always borrowed money and they're borrowing money. They're borrowing from Peter to PayPal. And so she said that she does not want to be like that. And when playing it in the game, and she realized the consequences of borrowing money, she said, I don't want to be like that. And I think it showed her how real life scenarios could affect your financial decisions, like her parents borrowing money all the time. Marci Grossman (14:19) Okay, that makes sense. And ⁓ your parents have played the game with you and you're all cool. Bostic Poindexter (14:28) Yes, yes, yes. Like I said, it's not in a way that's gonna be awkward conversations when you're playing the game. So yes, we've played the game, we've had some great conversations, and it's just something that we need to talk about as families. Because I remember growing up when we used to eat at the dinner table as a family. And now we're trying to bring that back with playing a game and talking amongst the family at the table. Marci Grossman (14:57) That's awesome because that's so important to bring the generations together. You make decisions based on how you've interpreted things that you saw your parents go through, which may not have been how they interpreted what they went through. And this gives you an opportunity to kind of get a resolution and move on and take control of those decisions. But I do want to ask about the game pieces that you have on the board. Can you tell me about those? Bostic Poindexter (15:28) Yes, so when I was creating the game, was around the time that Sinners came out, the movie with Michael B. Jordan and directed by Ryan Coogler. And I'm from Mississippi and I've always heard the story about Robert Johnson and how he basically gave his soul to be a blues musician. And so I was thinking, I was like, wow, like that's great that they made this movie. about someone who was so influential to music in American history. And I said, how can I do that with The Road to Financial Freedom? So with the board pieces, they're all after African-American inventors. So there's Lonnie Johnson with the super soaker. ⁓ There is ⁓ John Albert Burr, who made one of the first push lawnmowers that are just with just the blades. You remember those? And so, yeah, so ⁓ I wanted to commemorate Marci Grossman (16:21) Yeah. Bostic Poindexter (16:26) these ⁓ entrepreneurs and what they contributed to America. And also entrepreneurship is a way to financial freedom also. Marci Grossman (16:36) Is there a card about each of your game pieces? Bostic Poindexter (16:40) Where were you about a year ago? I wish I would have thought of that. I didn't even think about that. I wish, no. We don't have anything, ⁓ any cards about it. Mainly the cards are just real life scenarios and high risk, high reward. But within the high risk, high reward, there are ⁓ some cards that are Let's Talk About It. And Marci Grossman (16:42) You didn't call me, I was right here. Bostic Poindexter (17:07) We've seen the conversation go all kinds of ways, especially when it comes to finances, marriage, or wills and trust and life insurance and just those type of conversations that we need to have. But no, those pieces are not in within the cards. Marci Grossman (17:26) Have you put your own personal experiences into the cards? Maybe lessons that you learned the hard way? Bostic Poindexter (17:34) Yes, most definitely. There are a lot. Let me see, let me think of one. ⁓ there's a card that says, Real Life Scenario. Your friend borrowed some money but never paid you back. I think we've all gone through that. So pay $100 to the bank and move back one space. Yes. So I'll. Marci Grossman (17:55) That's a painful one. Bostic Poindexter (17:57) Mm-hmm. Yes. Marci Grossman (18:01) Why do you think that financial literacy is becoming a survival skill in today's world? Bostic Poindexter (18:11) Because people are realizing that inflation is eating away at all of us. And the wealth gap between the rich and the poor is getting further and further apart. 70% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. So I think bringing awareness around that and financial literacy, it's, like you said, becoming a survival skill because the only way you could fight against inflation is you need to know about it. You need to know how it works. You need to know how to beat it, how to overcome it. Whether that's buying assets, ⁓ investing in the stock market, or just becoming better with your credit card points and getting discounts with using credit cards and paying off debt. You will be amazed of how many people have played the game that did not know how credit card interest rates work. ⁓ They were just paying the minimum payment on a credit card and wondering why the bill keeps going up because they see the line that says minimum payment. So they're only making that payment and they're not paying off the full balance, but they're watching it go up each month. So I think that learning about financial literacy is definitely becoming a survival skill because we need to know these things. Marci Grossman (19:31) Right. So the game helps people with their knowledge shift, but you really have to have a mindset shift before you can have the habit shift that has you making a difference in the way you approach your money and money decisions. Do you see that happening yet where people are getting that transitioning from, I've got more knowledge now and then implementing it with the decisions they make? Have you heard feedback from users? or. Bostic Poindexter (20:03) Yes, so paying off credit cards. So with them playing the game, when people understand the interest rates and the credit cards, there was, it was my aunt, when she played the game, she was like, wait, so what is this number on the interest rates? You know what? I paid it, this is happening to me. And so, and I told her, I said, look, if you have the money, why are you paying monthly on it? Pay off the entire balance that way you won't be racking up the interest. And it was like a couple weeks later, she went ahead and she paid the full balance. And she was so happy because she was just so used to paying their minimum payment and the price just kept going up or the balance just kept going up. And so we've seen people that play the game and we've seen the results of what happens when they do play the game and they started learning about the finances, especially during the play testing phase because we've been developing this game for an entire year. So there have been a lot of use cases where people are using what they learned throughout the game and implementing it into their lives. Marci Grossman (21:13) When was the game released? Bostic Poindexter (21:15) It was released on January the 6th. Marci Grossman (21:18) Okay, so just a couple of months ago. don't know if you've... Is it all around the country or is, I guess, if it's online then it's technically all around the country or are you in stores? Bostic Poindexter (21:30) No, no. So as of right now, we just have, we're just ⁓ on Shopify. And so we just have our website. We're not at Amazon, we're not at Walmart or any of those places. I want to do this as a grassroots project and I'm not looking to get into the big retailers. I want to get this game into the hands of the people who need it the most. That's, that's my mindset and how I've been operating The Road to Financial Freedom. Marci Grossman (21:59) Okay, so what are you doing to get it from here to there? Other than talking to podcasters and I saw you I think on a TV news show or a YouTube show. Bostic Poindexter (22:11) Yes, so I've been going to schools around the country speaking to kids, I'm sorry, not kids, students about financial literacy and going to the Boys and Girls Club, nonprofits and showing them that there is another way because you can't say that you like money if you don't understand money. And so I think that resonates with the kids and they, as soon as I say, do you like money? All right, do you understand money? And then they were like, ⁓ not really. OK, well, you should. And so this is how. This is a tool that's made for you. And as soon as they see the money and see how the money looks real, that's when they're really engaged and ready to play. And you see the laughs, the smiles, and the jokes, and just having a good time while learning about money and not sitting in such a boring lecture about money. Marci Grossman (23:01) So has it been picked up by some schools for their financial literacy and classes? Bostic Poindexter (23:08) We are almost there. ⁓ I had a call last week with a teacher in New Orleans, and they were bringing it up at their board meeting on Friday. And they were interested in purchasing some games. So like I said, we're only about 60 days in or 69 days in, and those conversations are being had, and we're moving forward. So ⁓ we're just looking to get into schools and universities, and then eventually, ⁓ ⁓ stores, small stores. Marci Grossman (23:40) That's awesome. ⁓ Bostic, do you have anything else you'd like to mention that maybe we haven't covered? Bostic Poindexter (23:43) Thank you. Yes, so you could purchase the game at www.playfinancialfreedom.com. You can also follow us on social media, which is Play Financial Freedom. We're on TikTok. We're on Instagram, YouTube, LinkedIn. We're everywhere. So we'd love for you to give us a follow and reach out. And let's change the subject. Let's start moving towards financial freedom and financial literacy. Marci Grossman (24:22) Okay, well I will definitely be putting that in the show notes. ⁓ Bostic, thank you so much for being my guest today. We appreciate you taking the time to join us here. Bostic Poindexter (24:34) Thank you, I appreciate you for having me and I'll enjoy being on the show and good luck in the future. Marci Grossman (24:40) Well, thank you. To my listeners, I will be sharing a link to Bostic's information and his social media in the show notes. Please check out his site, see what he offers. A lot of interesting information about the game. Don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review and stay tuned. I'll see you next time. This has been MoneyMarci on Marci Talks Money (and Life). You got this.