Latest / Detritus / Mr. Brown's Jersey Boys

Transcript

Mr. Brown's Jersey Boys · Detritus

0:05
cultural ephemera stuff from the media living
0:12
in perpetua in our memorial once once more cultural
0:18
ephemera stuff from the media Hello and welcome
0:34
to Detritus, the podcast that sifts through the
0:36
debris of popular culture in order to explore,
0:40
uncover, and maybe even reclaim that which is
0:42
lost to the algorithmic rivers of time. I'm John
0:45
Loveless, this is Jack Savage. Hello. And to
0:48
introduce this not particularly water -type concept,
0:51
we will be petitioning each other for the first
0:53
two episodes before inviting in a range of special
0:55
guests to participate in the act of recollection.
0:59
As Tony Soprano once said to Paulie Walnuts,
1:01
remember when is the lowest form of conversation,
1:04
to which we say, Tony, with all due respect,
1:06
you've got no fucking idea what it's like to
1:08
remember something you saw on Facebook in 2009.
1:11
Every recollection you make affects every facet
1:14
of a podcast. It's too much to deal with almost,
1:17
and in the end, you're completely alone with
1:19
it all. I think if The Sopranos was produced
1:23
today, there would be an episode in which...
1:25
Would Chrissie start a podcast? Oh, yeah, yeah,
1:29
yeah, of course. Well, there's already like Instagram
1:32
accounts that imagine like, you know, modern
1:34
day Sopranos. I think I've seen one that imagines
1:36
like Chrissie start your podcast. He'd do a few
1:40
episodes. Maybe we, maybe we will too. Do you
1:43
think we get shut down by the family? No, Tony
1:46
wouldn't like it, would he? Because he would
1:48
find it just too ghost shit out there, you know?
1:51
He didn't like him writing a screenplay. He definitely
1:53
wouldn't like him having to generate enough content
1:55
to do, like, a weekly podcast. But then maybe
1:57
Tony would fight. I don't know if he was made
2:00
a guest. He might like the spotlight. I think
2:02
Tony could be in any era, and I don't think he
2:05
would... I don't think he would adapt, like,
2:07
a social media presence today. I mean, I know
2:09
there's not that much left in the wake of the
2:12
mob. but I don't know if they're doing much on
2:14
socials. I think you'd be surprised. There's
2:17
that guy, what's he called, Big Time Tommy? Big
2:21
Time Tommy? He's this guy, he like rolls around
2:24
in sort of a dropped like... Cadillac or something
2:28
and he blasts loads of like freestyle music and
2:32
he just shouts into his phone. Is he in Jersey
2:34
or New York? He's definitely in like the Jersey,
2:37
he's in like Queens or something. Okay. You know
2:39
the more rough end of New York but he's um...
2:42
Stop clicking your pen. Sorry I just you know
2:45
I'm like yeah. That's what Tony would say to
2:47
Chrissie. Yeah, because of his addiction issues.
2:50
Say it in his voice. You know, imagine if you...
2:52
I can't do Tony, I can't do any of them really.
2:55
Imagine if you were just giving this podcast
2:57
a chance. Yeah, it's a podcast, but it's two
3:00
white blokes chatting about... cultural whatever
3:02
and then literally the first conversation is
3:04
what if Tyler Soprano or Christopher Soprano
3:07
had a podcast? Yeah, sorry about that. Yeah,
3:09
we got it out of the way. Well, yeah, I mean
3:11
we're walking straight into some Manosphere cliche
3:14
to begin with. First of many I know I died out.
3:18
Soprano's from like a contemporary media analysis
3:21
stance. Yeah, I like that. I mean it's such an
3:25
unexamined piece of art isn't it, Soprano? Yeah,
3:27
I just barely see any. Something about it, yeah.
3:32
We do need to talk about what you're listening
3:36
to though. I mean I think we should deal with
3:38
the elephant in the room which is who we are,
3:41
why we've done this and the audience that might
3:45
be listening because you're a part of it. So
3:47
I'm a writer and DJ and you are a musician and
3:53
previously were the drummer in the... relatively
3:58
extremely popular indie electro band Friendly
4:01
Fires. talked about it in the wider world, but
4:07
I'm no longer a part of that. Yeah, so I guess
4:09
that's a... It's an exclusive! Oh fuck, I'd forgotten
4:12
that there was an exclusive element. Well, yeah,
4:14
I mean, I don't want... I mean, yeah. You just
4:16
felt like the time had come? I think so, yeah.
4:19
Yeah, exactly. I did leave. I left the band in
4:21
order to stop this podcast. It's been in development
4:23
for probably two years, as we both know. Yeah.
4:27
A lot of market research. Exactly. No, yeah,
4:31
I just sort of felt like it was... It was time
4:34
to not be the drummer in a band that I started
4:37
with some friends when I was about 15. Well,
4:39
I'm your new friend now. Yeah, exactly. I mean,
4:42
to be honest, I thought it would it would release
4:44
me into allowing me to like flourish into the
4:48
sort of person I was always meant to be. But
4:50
sadly, I'm starting a podcast. It's about what
4:54
if Tony Saffrono had a podcast. Exactly. Your
4:59
last gigs were in Japan supporting Pulp. Uh,
5:02
yeah, and Primal Scream. That was really cool,
5:04
actually. I mean - Paul Mayley. Yeah, okay, fair
5:06
enough. Um, yeah. I love you, Bobby. Yeah, that
5:09
was about this time last year. It was, that was
5:12
a, that was, I think that was the only gig in
5:14
the diary for quite a long time. And I think
5:16
I'd sort of thought like, maybe that'd be the
5:18
last one for me personally. Well, I mean, if
5:21
we can make your experience in band about me
5:24
- Which it always was. Which it always is and
5:26
was. You know, it's quite - I wouldn't say it's
5:29
surreal to be here with you, but I remember in
5:31
my first or second year of uni, luring down some
5:37
people in my halls to go and see this band I
5:39
liked. Called? Friendly Fires, it was shit disco.
5:44
And I went to Retro Bar to see you, and yeah,
5:49
I just bought Paris, I was on Seven Inch, one
5:53
of your big early singles. Yeah, I was hammered.
5:57
You were drumming and then at the end I remember
5:59
I was at the bar and I sort of like put my hand
6:03
on your shoulder and I went, I was really good
6:05
mate. And you went, thanks very much. Just exactly
6:09
as you would now. And a few years later, I remember
6:11
being at Parklife Festival in Manchester when
6:13
it was in Fallifield and you were headlining,
6:17
the band were headlining the main stage. And
6:20
I remember being absolutely off my tits and saying
6:24
to my mate, I can't believe it was only two years
6:27
ago I was with a bloke in Retro Bar. I wasn't
6:30
using my voice, it's just abroad. I don't get
6:33
high and turn into an old sort of cockney man.
6:38
But yeah, I was watching you there and then here
6:40
we are like 15, 20 years later doing a podcast
6:44
with you. So, you know, what went wrong from
6:47
your perspective? Yeah, yeah, heady days indeed.
6:50
Yeah, and I'm glad you remember those things
6:51
because I definitely remember the... bar gig,
6:55
way better than I remember the Parklife gig.
6:56
I think probably because the Parklife gig was
6:58
so many people. Yeah, yeah. I don't know, yeah.
7:01
I hear scream and banger bleeding into the sound,
7:04
yeah. I don't know, it's definitely, I remember
7:06
Parklife being like a real mess. Made to real
7:09
fucking mess. And in the early days, they booked
7:12
a bunch of different stuff. This year, they've
7:15
just bought like bait Instagram house DJs this
7:18
year, so they must have had like a bad year last
7:20
year, they always shrink down. But you know,
7:22
in the back of the day, I saw like Yeah, in the
7:24
recent years, we had like Chemical Brothers 1975
7:26
headlining event. They had a Stein Roses event.
7:29
Yeah, but that was like a different thing for
7:32
the fellas. But you could always gauge pop culture
7:36
through Parklife basically, but it was always
7:38
like really messy, like not really consistent,
7:41
but you know, they'd have bands and DJs and now
7:44
it's this year in particular, it's sponsored
7:46
by Pepsi and Rockstar Games and it's just like...
7:49
Calvin Harris, and then a bunch of people I don't
7:52
really know. But then again, I'm a 37 year old
7:56
man. So why am I even looking at this line up?
7:59
No, it's important. I mean, I remember when we
8:01
first met in Berlin, we went for a walk around
8:04
the Temple of Feld. It was during COVID? Yeah.
8:06
I think you told me for about 25 minutes why
8:08
Nemesis was your favorite roller coaster of all
8:11
time. Did I just dominate the conversation? No,
8:13
no, you didn't really. I didn't go in with that.
8:15
I know how to lure people into that. I did ask
8:17
you what your favorite roller coaster was. How
8:19
did Roller Coasters come up? I think you said
8:21
that you were doing a book... As if that's a
8:23
shock, as if anyone who knows me were, well,
8:25
how did that come up? No, no, but... Yeah, I
8:27
was working on a book at the time, but I suppose,
8:30
technically, I'm still working on Very Slowly,
8:32
which is about my, I guess, longest -form obsession,
8:35
which is with roller coasters and theme parks,
8:37
which will, incidentally, occur later on in the
8:40
podcast, actually. It's in our notes, isn't it?
8:43
Well, yeah, you are... I wrote it down. You are
8:46
a roller -logical costographer. Wow. That's nice.
8:50
That's like a sweet joke. It's good fun. That's
8:53
nice. Thanks very much. I wrote that down today.
8:55
More like that, please. Yeah, no worries. But
8:58
yeah, the subject of our first, if I may link,
9:02
the subject of our first, or hang on, how do
9:06
I fucking work this? Like the subject of our
9:08
first episode. That man trying to work out how
9:11
to do a link on a vodka. Is a guy who is a ride.
9:17
Yeah but I wouldn't say that's what he's best
9:19
known for and nor would he want to be known predominantly
9:22
for that given how his experiment turned out.
9:25
It's a bit of a shame because if you do get to
9:28
the point in culture where you're able to do
9:29
a ride then... It's a moment where you can possibly
9:33
have true immortality, because that thing is
9:35
not going anywhere. Like, thousands of people
9:37
go for it. Not for a while a day. Yeah, not unless
9:40
it turns out the ride is either really faulty
9:42
or racist. What's your favourite celebrity ride?
9:48
If you indeed have one. And that can be global.
9:51
Well, I suppose like, I struggle to think. You
9:54
know, there's loads of good rides at Universal
9:55
and Disney based on film properties. Rides, they
10:00
seem to save it for quite annoying people. Two
10:02
things come to mind. There's a Jimmy Fallon ride
10:05
in Orlando, where you go to visit Jimmy Fallon
10:08
and he takes you on a wacky trip around New York.
10:11
I cannot explain the contempt I feel for that.
10:14
Do you think they can swap him out for whoever's
10:17
replaced? Or is it so integral to his lived experience?
10:21
Universal and Comcast, they really trust him
10:24
and they trust him to have stopped drinking.
10:26
So yeah, he's going to be there for a while.
10:28
And the other is that currently, if you go to
10:32
Dubai, you can visit Beastland, which is Mr.
10:37
Beast's theme park, which is mainly a collection
10:40
of UK travelling rides rented out by Mr. Beast
10:43
with banners put on them. But that sounds pretty
10:46
fucking woeful. That's terrible. Beastland? He
10:49
hasn't Beast World, Beastland. He hasn't even
10:51
built a proper theme park. He obviously doesn't
10:53
have that level of expenditure. And even he doesn't
10:56
believe that the Beast brand can, you know, last.
10:59
Yeah, true. As long as the Universal Studios.
11:01
I suppose there's like Dolly World. Is that any
11:03
good? Dollywood, that's good. That's in Tennessee.
11:05
That is actually a genuinely good park. But it's
11:08
kind of got Dolly's name on it, but there's no
11:09
like, there's no like Dolly themed rides. She
11:12
doesn't really appear there. Really? There's
11:14
no like... magic show based on the mystery of
11:17
her husband. It's just like other IP. It's not
11:20
really IP. No, very universal. Don't get me started,
11:24
man. But Dollywood thrives on its own terms.
11:30
Yeah. Before we go into and reveal who this is,
11:33
we need to do a bit of a moment to discuss where
11:37
we're recording this. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So
11:40
you can introduce this because it's much more
11:42
to do with you than with me. Well, yeah, yeah,
11:44
no, part of my extended wilderness period, wilderness
11:48
period, part four is that I'm doing a, I'm doing
11:52
an MA at the Udekar in Berlin, which like it's
11:55
called Sound Studies. And so we're in one of
11:58
the Sound Studies studios. It's very nicely.
11:59
Sounds great. Sounds great. Yeah, exactly. It
12:01
does sound great. You'd hope so. Yeah. This is
12:04
a legendary course, but it's under threat. Well,
12:07
it's, it's more or less Like dumb, it's it's
12:11
been it's been nixed by the by the university.
12:15
My year group will be the final people to go
12:17
through it. It's like there's a podcast in there
12:20
while you can. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, there's
12:22
a lot of sort of anger around and a lot of like
12:25
motivation to want to protest it. But there's
12:27
also a feeling that the reasons behind it being.
12:31
are like halted are so German that it's actually
12:34
impossible to direct. Oh, like a steel wall of
12:37
bureaucracy that you can't look through. Yeah,
12:38
it's like, it's about a, it's about compliance
12:41
with the Berliner Hochschul gazettes. Do you
12:44
know what I mean? There's no, exactly, exactly.
12:48
Like apparently - That's how they get you. the
12:50
president of the university is on our side. Do
12:53
you know what I mean? We can't even take signs
12:55
and harass the crusty old dean to keep our stupid
12:59
awesome M .A. open. We should explain that it's
13:05
in basically sonic experimentation. Yeah, somewhat.
13:08
I suppose it's somewhere, but it's like sound
13:10
and... kind of installation art, but also there's
13:16
a lot of philosophy knocking around. To be honest,
13:18
that's my favorite. So I was the only person
13:21
to turn up to a lecture today. Oh my, you nerd.
13:24
Yeah, I know. So it was like a really amazing...
13:28
There's one guy lecturing at you. Yeah, one lady
13:31
called Sabina. I shouldn't have assumed it was
13:33
a guy. Exactly. But yeah, we had a good old chin
13:36
wag about like Deleuze, Adorno. It was banging.
13:39
She turned into a conversation. You didn't just
13:41
listen. I would not say that, but I was very
13:47
glad that she went through the motions of doing
13:48
the lecture when it was only one person. She's
13:50
getting paid. Yeah, I don't know. It did end
13:52
on a slightly bittersweet note because I was
13:55
asking how it was going with the... That's great.
13:57
It sounds like a kind of Warnock play or an early
14:00
Richard Linklater film or something. It was good.
14:02
It was great. I think, yeah, Sabina Zanio is
14:05
my favourite lecturer and it was nice to have
14:07
him on. Shout outs. Maybe if we carry on with...
14:11
Yeah, I mean, come on. I mean, this is maybe
14:13
getting into the weeds a bit. I just wanted to
14:16
explain that it's like a historical course where...
14:18
I was hoping that you'd say there was going to
14:20
be some petition people could sign a rally. Seems
14:23
like it's done really, so fuck it. You just want
14:27
us to move on, you don't want us to continue,
14:29
fine. If you're happy with, you know, being one
14:32
of the last lot to do this, because presumably
14:35
you think nobody can do any better. I mean, by
14:37
the sounds of the attendance, it does sound like...
14:41
No wonder the president, he's looking at the
14:44
figures and he's saying... Allow me to just go
14:46
back on what everything I said. We need to fight
14:48
for the presence of sonic arts in this city because
14:52
this city's turning a complete fucking shit show
14:54
and it's because of the lack of sonic arts. And
14:57
some sonic arts for you. Yeah, but like, you
15:00
know, it is very sad and there is a petition
15:02
we can sign and I will share it in the thing.
15:06
I had the embarrassing thing of going to a bureaucratic
15:09
university meeting the other week and one of
15:11
the professors was like, I've got all these signs,
15:15
five of you, can you grab a sign so we can go
15:17
into this meeting with signs? And I was like,
15:19
yeah, yeah, sure, sure. And it turned out that
15:22
I was the only one carrying a sign in the whole
15:24
room. So I had this down with the cuts by this
15:28
massive bureaucrat. And it was just you? Yeah,
15:30
that was a little bit. Did that end up broadcast
15:33
on regional television? No, but I did feel a
15:36
bit silly. Also, it was just all in very, very
15:39
heavy bureaucratic German. You were just waving
15:41
your sign around. Well, it's the thought that
15:43
counts, really. Yeah. Well, I've never felt more
15:47
demotivated to save anything after that. Yeah,
15:51
exactly. That's my effect. We'll always have
15:53
the memories of the course. I'm continuing to
15:57
have a great education. I've really enjoyed the
15:59
40 minutes I've been here. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
16:01
yeah. The bathroom's very clean. Lift was efficient.
16:04
Yeah. It's quite a big lift. Room for 27 people.
16:06
Let's do the podcast. Yes. This is episode one
16:24
of Detritus. We're going all the way back to
16:27
2003 for Darren Brown Russian Roulette. Oh, what
16:31
a piece of TV it is. Is it not? It's great. Obviously,
16:36
like, we need to introduce this concept. And
16:39
I handed it over to you to find Detritus, which
16:43
is... We haven't really nailed down exactly what
16:46
qualifies as Detritus. I think this... It's close
16:51
to what I'd imagine as in it's something that
16:53
was culturally significant. It was an event at
16:55
the time. It was nearly 25 years ago. It doesn't
16:58
really get spoken about anymore. You had to remind
17:02
me of it. It was and remains quite sensational
17:06
in this case. It's quite a positive start to
17:08
the podcast. Yeah, I sort of feel like Detritus'
17:11
kind of stuff that is very broad and very, you
17:15
know, like a bit of a unifying cultural moment,
17:19
but probably forgotten about a week after it
17:21
happened. I feel like this was very much it.
17:24
I remember exactly where I was when I was watching
17:27
Darren Brown playing Drachenwerth. I was in a
17:31
university common room. like with some of my
17:35
crazy mates from halls when I was at university.
17:38
And everyone was like glued to it and it was,
17:41
I don't know, it was frightening and kind of
17:43
traumatizing. We didn't know whether he'd die.
17:46
Well, there was a lot of hype for this. Tonight,
17:49
I shall play Russian roulette live in this barn
17:52
behind me. One gun, one bullet, and every intention
17:55
of being alive at the end of the show. As ever,
17:58
no actors or stooges are used in making this
18:01
program. Obviously we played the intro there,
18:03
so you'll have heard from Darren what the plan
18:05
was, but this guy was going to play Russian roulette,
18:08
which at the time was best known from a Maltesers
18:11
advert that parodied the deer hunter. Do you
18:14
remember that? No, I don't remember. It's like
18:16
quite weird really, the idea that they were advertising
18:18
Maltesers with a guy. Oh no, wait, it wasn't
18:20
Maltesers, it was Revels. Do you remember Revels?
18:23
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do they have Revels in Germany?
18:25
Have you ever eaten them here? I don't think,
18:27
I think they were a part of the Galaxy family,
18:29
I think. Well, they're to Masterfood, yeah, Masterfood's
18:31
family. So the answer's potentially no? Yeah,
18:34
back then no one was playing Mushrooms out on
18:36
live television or otherwise, so it was quite
18:39
exciting. And then there was a really craze of
18:40
everyone doing it. No, it wasn't really. On BBC
18:43
One, they had it on as well. Imagine if every
18:47
channel just bought... Adrian Charles was doing
18:49
it. Early Charles. They were doing it on Big
18:52
Breakfast. It was big. It was big for a while.
18:56
People were doing it in the playgrounds. It was
18:57
amazing. Great time. There was a real sense that
19:00
it could be a moment of death on TV. You know,
19:04
there is a history of, like, magic -type people
19:07
dying. Magic -type people? Magic -type people
19:09
going just one step too far. Well, what are some
19:12
of the big deaths there? Houdini? Again, it wasn't
19:17
broadcast on Channel 4, though, was it? No, but
19:19
he had some act where he would get a strong man
19:23
to punch him in the stomach, and then some Tom,
19:26
Dick and Harry off the street came and did it
19:28
to him, and he just died. He hadn't anticipated
19:31
how strong they were going to be. Exactly, yeah.
19:33
So he kind of made a little deathbed for himself
19:37
there, so to speak. It's not like Siegfried and
19:42
Roy, that guy died of his heart. He did again,
19:44
not broadcast, but he did die in front, I think
19:46
that was in front of an audience in Vegas. That's
19:49
very shocking and sad. Yeah, I mean, but again,
19:51
he's winding up. Tommy Cooper again died of a
19:53
heart attack, and that was on television, and
19:56
they drew the curtain, and there's Dennis had
19:58
to go on after him. Is that true? Yeah, that's
20:00
true. Okay, that's incredible. Yeah, when he
20:02
was with Dustin G, but that's for another podcast.
20:04
Gosh. But anyway, Darren Brown has toured internationally,
20:09
his media is available on Netflix. I think one
20:11
of the reasons this show was so effective in
20:13
2003, it was the first big special he'd done.
20:17
So he'd done two series of street magic... and
20:21
mind reading kind of stuff. Mentalism. But what
20:26
worked about Darren and what had me really glued
20:29
to him as a teenager was that he wasn't smug,
20:33
arguably. He didn't pretend to have actual magic
20:36
powers. He made the pursuit of mentalism seem
20:42
authentic and he had a good touch with the public.
20:46
And so you'd come to trust him over a couple
20:49
of... seasons of his TV show, which was called...
20:54
Well, we really should have written this one.
20:56
I don't know. No, that's Chris Angle. It was
21:01
the opposite of Chris Angle, Mind Freak. Yeah,
21:05
so Darren had had a couple of series where he
21:08
would interact with normal people and celebrities
21:10
and show off his confounding powers. And true
21:14
to form at the beginning of this, we do see a
21:16
bit of him doing that. It starts with this kind
21:19
of thing where he's just doing this kind of cup
21:22
and ball trick. He's doing a cup and ball trick
21:24
in a market in London. Yeah, really charming
21:27
everyone. A real male worker is drawn to Darren
21:31
and he has him do the... the cups and balls,
21:34
just don't tell me which ball. And the bloke
21:37
does it and Darren looks away. And as we were
21:39
watching this on Sunday, you went, he's looking
21:42
at the reflection of the shop. And I was like,
21:44
no, he isn't. Well, to be fair, they never actually
21:48
turn me. Well, this is the thing about television
21:50
magic, because you don't know how much is being
21:52
kept from you. But that's another thing that
21:53
Darren did. He seemed to create a... an atmosphere
21:56
and a structure of trust compared to some of
21:59
the other magicians. You're right, he does love
22:00
his public. And I think that's kind of the theme
22:02
of the show in general, because he, you know,
22:05
he has this sort of like warm symbiosis with
22:08
normal people, he kind of needs them for his
22:10
thing to work. And at the end, I think, as we'll
22:13
see, like at the end, it takes this sort of like,
22:17
you know, like the appealing to this kind of
22:19
innocence of the of one member of the general
22:21
public to actually stop him from blasting himself
22:24
in the head with a gun. Yeah, I mean, it's very
22:26
much him becoming symbiotic with the public,
22:29
and it's about trust. Exactly, you're absolutely
22:31
right. And when you think about the magicians
22:33
in popular culture or the public consciousness
22:35
that Darren was following here, let's go through
22:38
them. We had Paul Daniels. Jerry Lee is, you
22:41
know, considered one of the biggest cons in British
22:44
light entertainment in a real gallery of cons.
22:48
He died due to magic. Yeah, did he? Yeah, he
22:51
choked on a dove that he was trying to have removed
22:53
from his mouth. That's not true. The live dove,
22:56
yeah. Paul Daniels? No, he didn't really. You
23:00
got me good there. Savage, worn, loveless, still.
23:03
Fantastic. But yeah, I mean... Now he's cooking.
23:06
I mean, like, are there current versions? Well,
23:09
there was... Well, there was dynamo in the years
23:11
after this. You know, Magica, I imagine he's
23:15
big on TikTok or whatever, because little card
23:17
tricks and stuff. There was Jerry Sadowitz, who
23:20
of course is one of the best close -up magicians
23:22
in the world, and was the person who discovered
23:24
Darren. At that point, he didn't really have
23:27
much of a TV career after Paul Bearer's review,
23:30
because if you don't know who Jerry Sadowitz
23:31
is, he's an amazing technical magician, but he's
23:35
also like a furiously misanthropic, offensive
23:39
stand -up comedian, basically, who finally got
23:42
cast a few years ago, but a real legend of British...
23:47
true alternative entertainment, but yeah, seemingly
23:50
doesn't pass mustard. Yeah. And also like a,
23:52
you can never find like. Yeah. Well, he used
23:55
to have a bit on his website. Do you remember
23:58
this? That's probably, yeah. So I got into him
24:01
because Stuart Lee was a big fan of him and a
24:03
lot of other kind of first wave alternative British
24:06
comedians. And I think he did some Stuart Lee
24:09
programs of the South bank center and he was
24:11
a part of it. And he used to have to be on his
24:13
website where it would be like, gigs tricks and
24:16
then there'd be one bit where it would say like
24:19
want to buy a gag or something or some kind of
24:23
outreach and then you clicked on it and he just
24:26
like it was just a photo of his own erect penis
24:28
and he just written fuck off on it. Okay I didn't
24:31
know that. That's who discovered Darren Brown.
24:33
Right yeah I mean Jerry Sandowitz was like the
24:36
one person he showed it is to kind of speak out
24:37
about Jimmy Savile. Yeah he spoke out about Jimmy
24:40
Savile a lot in the 90s and again I don't think
24:43
Sandowitz has many skeletons in his closet personally
24:47
I mean all the rage and fury and hate is just
24:50
there in his act it's very very funny too but
24:53
uh he would I could see him playing Russian roulette
24:56
do you know he would kill himself right yeah
25:01
and then before that there was also the masked
25:05
magician He's not a fucking magician. I think
25:08
he is mate. He had a TV show called The Masked
25:11
Magician. They don't just give that to anyone.
25:12
I concede. No, yeah, no, but he was, he was thrown
25:15
out of the magic circle. Well, that's what he
25:16
was so furious about. He was getting revenge
25:18
on them on the television. But then he was sort
25:20
of an anti -magician. He was doing... Well, he
25:22
showed, I mean, this was on, it was an American,
25:25
glossy American show that was on ITV on a Saturday
25:28
afternoon. I remember I was with my hands when
25:30
I watched this. And the whole conceit of it was
25:33
that he kind of wore a mask, broadcast from a
25:35
big, garishly lit warehouse, and he was like,
25:38
I'm going to show you what you should never see.
25:41
And, you know, it would be like a lot of, there'd
25:43
be card tricks by a lot of like classic slicing
25:45
a woman in half, putting a spike for a woman,
25:48
locking a woman in a tank, drowning a woman,
25:50
all that kind of, all that kind of stuff. Like,
25:53
that was big in the 90s. Right, right. And he'd
25:55
show you and then a woman would be fine. And
25:57
I'd be like, phew. I wonder if that... had any
26:01
kind of impact on me, actually. Do you think
26:03
watching a man repeatedly torture a woman in
26:06
the night is meant to just show you that he was
26:08
just kidding? Yeah. I mean, I don't think I've
26:10
ever seen a magic trick on TikTok. Not that I...
26:13
How often... No, I don't hang out with... I mean,
26:15
but, OK, I've never... I haven't seen any on
26:17
Reels either. Well, to use a phrase that I imagine
26:19
we'll be using a lot in the course of this podcast,
26:21
it's just not for us. Yeah, true, yeah. But TikTok
26:24
would be good for magic. But they were the big
26:27
magicians then, so Darren really was a... breath
26:30
of fresh air in his approach to it. Yeah, I mean,
26:33
he brought a different spin on it, but he definitely
26:35
retains that kind of, like, slight mystery. I
26:38
mean, he's very... He's warm, but he's distant.
26:41
Yeah, exactly. But also, he loves the reveal.
26:45
Like, he loves the reveal of kind of how it's
26:47
done, what he was thinking, and his strategies
26:49
around... He gives away enough, but there's moments
26:52
in this where he doesn't really tell you... Right,
26:55
so, to elaborate on what happens here, from...
26:58
I think it's about 500 applicants who all charmingly,
27:03
as it's the early 2000s, send in, as you've pointed
27:06
out, this is absurd. You go to a website to register
27:10
and then you have to send in a VHS tape once
27:13
they've emailed you like a code or something.
27:15
Yeah, I don't know, it really dates it. So he
27:17
would, the people would introduce themselves
27:19
and it was quite a diverse range of people basically
27:22
and although he did ultimately just choose six
27:25
white blokes. to go to the mysterious island
27:28
with him and a gun? Yeah. He whittles them down
27:34
from about a few hundred people in central London,
27:37
you know, he's testing them without them even
27:39
realising. He decides who's moving through to
27:41
the next round of the next room based on where
27:43
they've sat in the room. If they were too keen,
27:45
they're out. If they're at the back, they're
27:46
out. Then he has them draw a face and he sort
27:49
of lets face it, shows off a bit because that's
27:51
what this is about, by saying, I know who drew
27:54
that face, it's this guy or her or whatever.
27:57
I can try and describe these processes to you
27:59
but in the end it is just an instinct because
28:01
all these things become unconscious. There are
28:03
things in the way they dress or the way they
28:05
look the way they make eye contact or don't or
28:06
even the way they talk or they remind you of
28:08
somebody which you bring all that baggage to.
28:11
In the end I just see them and I feel them and
28:14
I know that's the right sort of person or it's
28:16
the wrong sort of person. And then yeah so he
28:18
finds six guys. One of them is a bloke who really
28:22
is desperate to help Darren kill or not kill
28:25
himself. The most obvious, like, IT guy I've
28:28
ever seen in my life, who's always got a really,
28:31
sort of, fire -red brown. I think he's trying
28:33
to watch Darren to try and be him. He sort of,
28:36
I think he fancies himself as having powers of
28:39
suggestion. He just wants to be in Darren's orbit
28:42
so he can sort of ingest a bit of the power and
28:45
have a bit of the same influence that Darren
28:48
clearly has. then there's like about four completely
28:52
nondescript. Yeah. And I was really gunning for
28:55
the IT guy to win. Because at one point he says,
28:58
how do I feel about not getting through? Well,
29:00
if I get through, that's great. But if I don't
29:01
get through, at least I've got to come to London
29:03
and have a good time. And at the end of the day,
29:05
that's what it's all about. But he's already
29:07
nearly in tears by the prospect of not going
29:09
through. He does get through. He does get through.
29:12
He gets to the final two, doesn't he? Well, Darren,
29:14
I mean, was zipping through a few... of Darren's
29:19
sort of challenges here. He takes them out for
29:21
dinner, reads them there. And they're having
29:24
a lovely time. You know, the hospitality for
29:27
this look great. And the guy who, the big Darren
29:29
fan, he just can't believe it, basically. But
29:32
then he does take them to somewhere away from
29:35
the UK by private jet. And that's when we get
29:38
to the live bit of the show, which after he's
29:41
whittled them down, they're in a barn on... unnamed
29:45
sort of island, which is Jersey. We now know
29:48
it's Jersey. OK, we don't know that at the time.
29:50
He didn't say it was Jersey at the time. He said,
29:52
due to the British gun laws, we have to leave
29:55
the UK. We know now that they were on Jersey.
30:00
So they're in a barn, sort of like brightly lit.
30:04
And this was filmed live in October. So. Yeah,
30:08
it's a windy night. There's a lot of atmosphere
30:10
there. Yeah, no, it's great. It's what you heard
30:11
of a star. He's live. He's like tonight I'm going
30:14
to play Russian roulette on live television.
30:16
The atmosphere is really good. Something about
30:19
the structure of the show is quite sort of pedantic
30:21
with all it's like whittling down of stuff. But
30:23
I don't know having been trailed and also there
30:27
being no footage of what it's going to look like.
30:30
It is very tantalizing. Like when he sort of
30:32
says tonight I'm going to be. doing Russian,
30:34
I'm gonna be playing Russian roulette. And these
30:37
are sort of outside in this kind of like windy
30:39
arse. Yeah, and it feels like it feels like you're
30:43
being let in to see something you shouldn't be
30:45
able to see. Yeah, yeah. And 3 .5 million people
30:48
watch this or something. So yeah, I guess that's
30:51
the other thing that's appealing to men of our
30:52
age. It was kind of like a communal event. What
30:55
would they call it? A mono, a monocultural experience.
30:59
Although let's face it, most people are probably
31:00
watching Havago News for you on the other side.
31:03
It was a Sunday night, so it would have been...
31:04
Was it a Sunday? Yeah, I'm certain of it. Oh,
31:06
okay. I thought it was a Friday. Sunday night,
31:08
about 9pm. People would have been watching Heartbeat
31:10
on the other side or The Royal. Yeah, or I don't
31:14
know, maybe Top Gear or something. Top Gear or
31:16
something. But the real heads... I'd like to
31:19
live on the edge like yourself. I think it'd
31:21
be a shame if Top Gear got more ratings than
31:23
this. I'd definitely watch an episode of Top
31:25
Gear where anyone who's ever hosted it tried
31:26
not to shoot themselves in the head with it.
31:30
They should have, you know, the Hammond episode
31:32
where he crashed her car. Yeah, I mean, I don't
31:36
think I've seen that. No, they never broadcast
31:38
it. Anyway, so the other thing that we should
31:43
mention is that Darren brings us to meet an Armourer.
31:48
Yeah, yeah. In what is the kind of silliest bit
31:52
of the show? The Armourer shows them how to load
31:55
a gun and these are just like five non -descript,
31:59
completely unforgettable British blokes. All
32:01
wearing what we described at the time as like
32:03
Burton wear. Like they all look like they've
32:05
just been to Burton or Top Man basically. Yeah,
32:08
like there's so many. I feel like one of them
32:11
has like a t -shirt with a Union Jack on it.
32:13
Yeah, one of them does. And like that was just
32:15
fine. That was fine because we were the end of
32:17
history. It was fine. Yeah. Yeah. And one of
32:19
them had an FC UK shirt on and it reminded me
32:22
of when I was a teenager. I went past FC UK and
32:26
I saw that they sold a shirt that said FC UK,
32:29
sale, sale, sale. And at the time I was like,
32:31
I think that's the smartest thing I've ever seen.
32:34
People would be in hysterics if I wore that shirt.
32:37
But with my lack of pocket money and the fact
32:41
that I wasn't applicable for government youth
32:44
funding, I couldn't afford to buy it. Right,
32:46
that's a real shame. Probably for the best in
32:48
retrospect. Yeah, so they all meet this armorer
32:51
who's inexplicably got his face blurred. He's
32:55
already done a crime basically. It really does
32:58
add to a certain, I don't know. I thought that
33:00
was stupid. I thought his blurred face was mental.
33:05
Okay, my take. Right, I'm finally going to say
33:08
a take, is that he's basically the devil in the
33:13
kind of interplay of archetypes that are in this
33:16
thing. You said Darren's planting the seed of...
33:20
Well, I think Darren is like, he's like a attention
33:24
seeking Jesus. As in, like, he's kind of, he's
33:27
capable of miracles. But he's also... Is this
33:30
Roland Barthes? No, no, no. This is me. Oh, this
33:34
is you. Right, okay. Interesting. He's... Well,
33:37
maybe I don't know. I mean, it's someone. It's
33:39
someone. And he's, you know, he's, he's capable
33:42
of like brilliant powers, but he's, he's hamstrung
33:44
by one thing. His need to entertain the British
33:47
public. Oh yeah. Okay. We'll come onto this in
33:50
a while too. And the, um, and so he's tempted
33:53
by a faceless sort of slightly brusque. man who's
33:58
handing him firearms, obviously the devil. Yeah.
34:01
That's what the devil does. He gives you bad
34:03
things or he offers you bad things to allow you.
34:06
You know, I shocked you. I don't think that the
34:08
guy's face was blurred at the time of filming.
34:11
Okay. Oh, right. Okay. It's to blur out the little
34:14
beard and the horns and like the sort of red
34:17
colouring. If that was the devil, at least one
34:19
of those five lads would have been like, sorry,
34:21
is that the devil? Why is he here? And why has
34:23
he got a gun? They might have edited it out.
34:25
They probably did say that. Interesting. Anyway,
34:28
yeah, the armour does, he comes back at the end.
34:30
His face isn't blurred at the end either, which
34:32
I also thought was silly. He's wearing a big
34:34
jacket and sunglasses, I think. You can see just
34:38
peer into his face. Again, that's what I'd wear
34:41
if I was the devil. And it's his job to show
34:44
him how to load the gun, but it's him who also
34:47
shoots, before the Russian Roulette begins, he
34:50
shoots. To say look, I'm a real armorer and this
34:54
is a real fucking god This is actually fucking
34:56
happening. Yeah, I mean it cuts to a break and
34:59
you strap in at that point then the five blokes
35:02
are in the barn but Darren in Strange bit of
35:06
me is on San has them in their own individual
35:08
stables like the horse. Yes, good So the way
35:12
Darren is gonna do this is simply count ask them
35:16
to count from one to six, which is the amount
35:18
of Chambers available for the bullets in the
35:22
pistol bloody like Clint Eastwoodian Yeah, he's
35:28
gonna Ask him to count one six and the idea is
35:30
that he's got to know them so well in this process
35:33
But he will simply be able to deduce which chamber
35:37
does or doesn't contain a bullet James I'm gonna
35:40
ask you in a moment to count from one to six
35:41
I'm only gonna ask you to do this once you need
35:44
to count clearly and slowly and loudly so I can
35:48
hear you from one to six. Listen, very important
35:51
as you count. Don't give me any clues. Don't
35:54
try and help me. If you try and help me, James,
35:57
it will confuse me. And it's really important
35:59
I'm not confused. Does that make sense? Yes.
36:01
Yeah, it does. Alright. When I say go, just take
36:04
a little while, just take a moment, just to take
36:06
a breath and relax, and then count from one to
36:08
six, loudly, clearly, and slowly. Take a breath
36:14
first. Go. One, two, three, four, five, six.
36:32
Okay, thank you. Exactly, and he needs to find
36:35
the most, I like the most kind of innocent suggestive,
36:39
maybe not suggestive, or like the person who's
36:41
going to give the game away immediately. So he
36:44
has them do one, two, three, four, five, six,
36:46
you know, on paper. This is just like the most
36:49
banal thing you can imagine. It's like a magician
36:51
in a barn with five, like, 30 -something wide
36:54
British blokes just repeating numbers. But you're
36:56
really on the edge of your seat, or I found out
36:58
when we watched it again over the weekend. I
37:00
think it speaks for his stagecraft as well. Yes,
37:03
his stagecraft is fantastic. It always has been.
37:06
And this is what I think the really early example
37:10
of him just like nailing that and moving beyond
37:12
just like a funny, weird street guy. you know,
37:15
doing spectacle in a way. So then they go to
37:19
begin the process and the guy who he chooses,
37:23
who, like you say, is kind of the most, like,
37:25
sort of inconspicuous of them, he's notable because
37:27
in another fantastic 2003 touch he's... wearing
37:31
baggy jeans with a long metal wallet chain on
37:34
them. So he's got a bit of a Griebo look about
37:36
him. He's gone for the Karangry. He thinks the
37:38
armour is going to nick his wallet. When they're
37:42
sort of panning between the faces of the contestants,
37:44
he really does look like a quivering kind of
37:47
lamb. And he says, are you sure you want to do
37:49
this and whatever? And he's like, yes, Darren.
37:52
And it's very, there's an intimacy between them.
37:54
Yes. And when they do, when he asks that question,
37:57
he answers in the affirmative. you can see him
37:59
gain in stature, I think. You know, he goes from
38:02
Green Lancer, like, I'm going to do this. I'm
38:04
going to help this man kill himself. And I think
38:05
at that point, we, the viewer, know that Darren
38:08
may have chosen right. Correct. Well, I don't
38:11
think it's a spoiler to reveal that Darren doesn't
38:14
kill himself on live television and that we weren't
38:17
watching this, like, you know, on Rotten .com
38:19
or on some weird Russian torrent. Yeah. Yeah,
38:22
like it was, you know, some other kind of beheading
38:24
video or whatever. But I think the, probably
38:27
the possibility of that is, or the, maybe the,
38:30
maybe because, because it came at a time... Get
38:31
onto the possibilities of it in a minute, Jack.
38:34
Sorry. Because, because I think the possibility
38:37
of it was perhaps quite low, but... Now I, I
38:42
know what I was going to say is that the, as
38:44
it came at a time of probably 2003, probably
38:48
quite a high point in like internet gore. Oh
38:51
yeah, internet goal was huge, then people would
38:53
just get on MSN messenger and send you Ken Bigley
38:56
being beheaded after school. At least they did
38:59
at my school. The school of hard knocks. No,
39:03
I never directly was sent anything like that.
39:05
But yeah, there was definitely like, the grubbier
39:07
end of the internet was beginning and the idea
39:10
of watching Channel 4 broadcasts like a snuff
39:12
movie was obviously entertaining. But I don't
39:14
know, it's quite Victorian in a way as well,
39:16
which Darren also loves. Darren loves the perfect
39:19
story. They're in this barn, and he goes behind
39:23
bulletproof glass. Darren takes the gun, and
39:26
he asks him to count one, two, three, four, five,
39:28
six. And you've seen this more than I have. Darren
39:32
gets one wrong. I'm going to set the gun to a
39:35
chamber that I feel is safe. That's number three.
39:40
Yeah, he goes to number three. He's sort of repeating
39:44
to himself, like, number three I think is safe.
39:46
Number three, I think. And then he shoots it
39:49
against the... There's like a large... What I'd
39:53
describe as almost like a... It's very... Again,
39:56
the decor of the mise -en -scene is really impressive.
39:58
I'd describe it as a big boxing... Yeah, yeah,
40:03
yeah. A big sack of stuff. Well, he's sort of
40:05
sat at the table with the gun in front of him
40:07
and he's kind of looking into the middle distance
40:09
and then he kind of grabs it and then whacks
40:11
against his head and pulls the trigger. Pulls
40:13
the trigger. Yeah, anyway, so he gets away with
40:16
it, but then he knows he's made a mistake, and
40:18
he knows he can't fuck up again. And there's,
40:21
I'd say, a good two minutes of complete silence
40:24
while Darren looks at the gun, deciding what
40:26
to do next. And this is genuinely one of the
40:28
most thrilling things I've ever seen. Completely,
40:31
like, there's a moment, you know, there's a one
40:33
moment where his hand twitches. That's the, you
40:35
know, that's all that happens in that, in that
40:37
two minutes while he kind of... I don't know.
40:40
And then... And also he only hears the... He
40:44
only hears the guy saying one, two, three, four,
40:46
five, six, what once. And there's no sound after
40:48
that. You can hear the kind of wind blowing against
40:50
the bar and then just Darren's breathing. And
40:53
yeah, this was so exciting at the time and I
40:56
really found it thrilling when we watched it
40:59
again recently. I thought it was amazing. Darren
41:09
identifies whatever boy starts shooting. He immediately
41:12
puts the guns down, stands up, calls over the
41:14
lad whose name we really... James or Jamie. James
41:19
or Jamie comes around and they kind of embrace
41:21
and Darren says like thank you and Darren's like
41:25
and it's over and they just cut to credits basically
41:28
and then it's over then the show's over. The
41:30
credits roll. Again it's a great bit of editing
41:33
because you catch your breath too you know it's
41:36
like oh we've really been through something together.
41:38
The credits roll in silence. Yeah. we're left
41:41
with our thoughts and Darren lives to fight another
41:44
day. Yeah. Yeah, really, it's really amazing.
41:48
It is really amazing. So I'm going to bring in
41:52
a slice of cynicism to this podcast. I hate to
41:55
be the harbinger of that. Finally. Yeah, which
41:59
is obviously this caused quite a stir at the
42:01
time in the press because a man was claiming
42:05
to potentially be in position of killing himself
42:08
live on television. And it was revealed the next
42:12
day that the whole thing took place on the Isle
42:16
of Jersey, which, you know, I'm no geographical
42:20
expert, but I believe it is part of the UK. It's
42:23
just a part where you can do things without paying
42:25
tax. It's a Crown dependency, isn't it? Crown
42:28
dependency, there you go. And I think the gun
42:32
laws there are the same. The police said that
42:36
they had given permission to a production company.
42:39
to shoot there with a limited amount of bullets
42:43
and the armourer, and that everything had been
42:46
checked over by them, and that Darren was only
42:51
shooting blanks, and it was blanks loaded into
42:54
the gun. When the production company were approached
42:57
about this, they immediately came back and said,
43:01
If it were blanks, then it wouldn't have made
43:04
a difference because Darren still would have
43:06
killed himself by shooting himself in the head.
43:09
Which I think is the shittest thing they could
43:10
have said at that point. They should have said
43:12
nothing. You're absolutely right. I think that
43:16
it's neither here nor there what is in that gun
43:18
really. I think the drama is real. I think the
43:23
thing as a narrative... like that sort of culminates
43:27
with all these like members of the public in
43:29
the in a Masonic Lodge and ends with him sort
43:32
of staring into space like repeating numbers
43:34
in his head while he thinks about whether he's
43:36
going to pull the trigger on himself again is
43:39
kind of perfect. And there's no amount of authenticity
43:41
that would make that better. Like, I think there's
43:45
it just is right. I think if they If it was not
43:49
real, then they've done a brilliant job in doing
43:52
everything that would make it appear real. If
43:55
they were going to really fake it, then they'd
43:58
just do it in fucking Boreham Wood or something.
44:01
Like everything else in TV. It would be like
44:04
an Addison Lee ride away from central London.
44:06
He'd be home in bed half an hour afterwards.
44:09
But instead they went all the way to Jersey.
44:13
Yeah, you know and they would get a select, you
44:15
know If they were really gonna fake it they just
44:16
get some celebrities to be the armorer like they
44:19
get like Andy McNabb to be the armorer. Vernon
44:23
Kay in 2003 would have been... He'd be great,
44:26
he'd bring in like an extra million viewers on
44:28
whatever it is I'm on board with it and I think
44:32
I'm not on board with some of like Darren's other
44:35
oeuvre. Like we watched... We watched The Heist
44:38
afterwards because we were riding high on We
44:41
were so high on fumes. Exactly, we were just
44:44
high on mentalism. The heist was voted on Darren
44:48
Brown night, according to Wikipedia, like his
44:50
number one special ahead of Russian Roulette.
44:53
The heist is when he attempts to coerce people
44:57
into... robbing, um, somebody delivering money
45:01
to a bank in central London. He attempts to,
45:05
yeah, he coerces the people who are already amoral
45:08
wankers into, like... Yeah, so you have to spend
45:10
an hour with a bunch of cunts, basically. Yeah,
45:12
yeah. One of them's like, I'm not doing this
45:15
on TV, my daughter might see it. It's not that
45:18
it's wrong, he just doesn't want his daughter
45:19
to see it. There is a good sequence where loads
45:22
of blokes in suits just go into the same corner
45:24
shop and nick like a twix and did some cigs and
45:28
that bit's funny. Tellingly the first person
45:30
who does it correctly is like a PR expert, like
45:34
a press officer. Yeah, like the worst people
45:37
you can possibly work with. Anyway, so that one,
45:42
and also I do feel, and then Darren takes him
45:45
to... like a mysterious white tent where he heals
45:50
them, and it's a little bit... Oh yeah, he kind
45:52
of deprograms them. He deprograms them, and for
45:55
me it's just a little bit silly. Darren does
45:57
a lot of his work with Andy Neiman, who also
45:59
works with the League of Gentlemen, and he is
46:02
credited up front, but I don't think enough people
46:04
know about how his level of storytelling and
46:07
stagecraft is really important to what Darren
46:09
does. I really like a lot of what Darren's...
46:12
done in the years since his stage shows, but
46:16
I don't think anything he did on TV had the sheer
46:20
thrill of this and nor did it have the rawness.
46:23
Everything after that became, yeah by 2008 -2009
46:27
he was like faking a zombie apocalypse to teach
46:30
some like bloke on the spectrum how to like stand
46:33
up for himself in the office. It was just like,
46:37
it's just a bit inessential. And he did like
46:42
a Guessing the lottery numbers thing which I
46:45
think and that was very transparent. Well, didn't
46:47
even say it was fake like straight up. He didn't
46:49
even have a Yeah, every for excuse. It's just
46:53
lied. Yeah But yeah, I think he he definitely
46:56
peaked with this but I don't know he does have
46:58
a you know, he costs a broad shadow on UK culture.
47:02
Yeah Yeah, I do notice that you've been like
47:05
sort of just be rubbing your leg just like they
47:07
do in the in the uh the heist episode yeah so
47:11
you you're you need deprogramming don't rejoin
47:14
the band keep doing the podcast with me yeah
47:17
yeah so that was a good gag we should keep it
47:22
in um so yeah i should talk about what i what
47:25
i interviewed darren tell us about when you uh
47:27
met darren brown john well i met darren perhaps
47:30
past his peak in light culture and whatsoever
47:33
darren's just kept touring you know he's a touring
47:36
illusionist and is kind of a... I don't know
47:40
if he's a national treasure or not what he wanna
47:42
be, but he's, you know, still a presence, if
47:45
you will. It's not like he did anything fucking,
47:47
like, unforgivably shit. No, I mean, I think
47:51
he's... I think he's a really likable guy. Yeah.
47:54
I'd love to be mates with Darren Brown. He also
47:56
wrote about stoicism. Which again is a very...
47:59
is almost like a very benign philosophy compared
48:02
to, like, what, you know, a lot of... Well, you
48:05
know, there's a cultish element that... has formed
48:07
around him. I was deep on Reddit reading Darren
48:12
Brown subreddits and such, preparing for this,
48:15
reviews of his recent tour. And you realise that
48:17
some people have been going to him for a long
48:19
time and are really devoted to his craft. And
48:22
yet I don't think he's ever exploited that in
48:24
a cultish manner. So I like that about him. No,
48:29
like as you said at the beginning, he does have
48:31
a warm, he's symbiotic with his fans and his
48:35
public and his sort of You know, they're never
48:37
stooges. Well, when I met Darren, I interviewed
48:40
Darren. Did he hypnotise you? I think I'm only
48:44
just coming out into his nightmare. He was exactly
48:49
like Darren Brown as well, like his cadence,
48:54
his warmth but slight remove. But the thing to
48:56
know about when I met Darren Brown is I was,
48:58
I'd been out the night before and I was fucking
49:01
in a bad way. It was at a hotel in Southend -on
49:04
-Sea. And I'd been to XOIO in London the night
49:08
before. Big time. Yeah, I'd indulge myself, I
49:10
think. I also remember I was staying with a friend
49:13
who was having like really bad like mental sort
49:17
of episode, but not the good kind that Darren
49:19
likes. I mean, the bad kind, but this was 2015
49:24
and I had less tools to deal with that. So it
49:29
was a bit of a mad evening. And then I got up
49:30
early to go to Southend. because he'd been performing
49:33
in Southend the night before. And the reason
49:36
I interviewed him, to bring it right back to
49:39
the obsessions touched on at the start of the
49:41
podcast, was because he was the man behind Darren
49:45
Brown's Ghost Train at Fort Park. Right, right.
49:49
So, Darren Brown's Ghost Train opened at Fort
49:51
Park in 2016 and was, you know, an extension
49:54
of the Darren Brown IP or brand, really. And
49:57
I remember when... He was rumored to be the intellectual
50:01
property behind this mysterious new dark ride
50:04
over the building of Fort Park. And people were
50:07
a bit like, how's that going to work? And then
50:10
there was a really good promotional campaign
50:12
where Darren talked about how he'd been working
50:14
with a team of 150 illusionists and designers
50:17
to create a new idea of the ghost train. That
50:22
you'd go in and there'd be a mysterious Victorian
50:25
train and then you'd go on like... an adventure
50:28
beyond the normal human dimensions and I thought
50:31
it sounded really good and I obviously was a
50:33
fan of a fan of Darren casually and more of a
50:36
fan of theme parks so I got the Guardian who
50:39
I was writing for weekly at the time only about
50:42
about clubs and occasionally about theme parks
50:44
to set me up with PR thing. Now the ride was
50:49
meant to open in March and it was delayed till
50:52
July that's another thing that I can Terry, so
50:55
I went to meet him early March and I got to visit
50:58
the ride the day before. I signed a ludicrous
51:01
NDA, like an insane NDA, that it was if I was
51:04
visiting Abu Ghraib or something, it was nuts.
51:06
It was, I could not believe it. Did you go on
51:08
the ride alone? No, because the ride wasn't ready,
51:10
but I had the lead designer tour me around it.
51:13
Okay, what with all the lights on? There's a
51:15
guy called Bradley Wynn took me around it, who
51:18
still works in the industry, but isn't involved
51:20
at Fort Park or Merlin anymore. So... I got taken
51:23
around it and they were like, here's where this
51:25
is going to happen. But the ride, you know, it
51:27
was more of a dark ride, more of a simulator
51:29
kind of ghost train kind of thing going on. Lots
51:31
of different elements. If you've ever been to
51:33
like any of the Dungeons, like London Dungeons,
51:35
York Dungeons, Edinburgh Dungeons, because that's
51:38
Merlin too, there's a bit of that in play. I
51:41
mean, I had the feeling that it might be a bit
51:44
of a disaster and that feeling increased the
51:46
next day when I met Darren and I told him I'd
51:48
been and he said, how's it looking? And I realised
51:50
he hadn't visited. So yeah, well, he wasn't like
51:53
feverishly in meetings every night just being
51:55
like, okay, yeah, guys, have you made the track
51:58
yet, guys? No, no, no. He's like, how are the
52:00
ghosts coming along? Are they spooky enough?
52:04
No, he wasn't. He was at this point doing like
52:07
PR appearances where he turned up, for example,
52:09
like in Wolverhampton town centre with like,
52:11
safety centre, sorry, Wolverhampton, with like
52:13
two little spooky ghost doll girls or like with
52:16
a demon on a chain dressed like a fucking like
52:19
Victorian like... Conductor he was doing he was
52:22
doing that what I've realized since was that
52:26
Darren Brown? Maybe didn't have that much input
52:29
into the core of a ride, which was like something
52:32
designed like By committee and a very much too
52:38
many cooks for the broth type thing because it
52:40
was meant to be this classic ghost train But
52:42
also it was like this VR ride where you went
52:45
on this Victorian ghost train and then you put
52:47
on a VR headset and you won the London Underground
52:49
and then it turned into like a Play where some
52:52
zombies jumped out and then you went back on
52:54
the same train And it was like you'd never moved
52:56
and they spent millions trying to achieve that
52:57
effect, but nobody noticed it The whole thing
52:59
was just a disaster they reopened it the next
53:02
year with like an additional version of it got
53:05
Darren to like do another advert. but I felt
53:08
for Darren because when the ride opened it kept
53:10
breaking down like a lot of new rides do and
53:12
it wasn't particularly well received and so he'd
53:14
just have to deal with like thousands of tweets
53:16
a day saying all right you can't just go my way
53:18
back from Fort Park your new ride shit or like
53:21
my nine -year -old couldn't go on your ride or
53:24
my 11 -year -old did go on your ride and he said
53:26
it was shit you should be ashamed of yourself
53:27
so like Darren went from just like you know like
53:30
cozy tweets with like Jonathan Ross or Stephen
53:33
Fry to just having like 15 ,000 people from stains
53:38
a day dumping on him. I can't imagine he like
53:41
that much, especially as he's usually operates
53:43
really in his lane, you know, where he's got
53:46
control over things. I just imagine they just
53:48
gave him like a big wedge of cash to do this
53:50
really. It just, it maybe does show that there's
53:53
like, there's now no people who embody spookiness
53:56
without being like someone who played, you know,
54:00
a horror. Christopher Lee. Christopher Lee. So
54:04
you wouldn't give him a ride at Fort Park. You
54:06
know, like, yeah, well, like... To give you an
54:08
example of the other IPs that they use at Fort
54:11
Park, Angry Birds, I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out
54:14
Of Here, like, blackmail, it's like, fuck, why
54:17
did you do this, man? Anyway, it was nice to
54:20
meet him. I was really hungover. And the PR guy
54:24
in the room... who was like sort of 20 something
54:27
bit of a geezer like was there to keep things
54:30
very much like in check you know like um and
54:34
keep make sure i was on my best behavior he'd
54:36
clearly been warned by the pr from the same company
54:38
the day before but i was actually like a genuine
54:42
roller coaster and let's face it like media freak
54:45
and i would have like weird questions for darren
54:47
brown and i did like hung over ask him because
54:51
I was just such a moron back then and I was like,
54:54
just knocking about London. I was living here,
54:56
but I wasn't properly settled. I was like reeling
54:59
from a bad breakup. I had even less money than
55:01
now and I was just living a chaotic life. So
55:04
I just wouldn't write things down. So the next
55:06
thing you know, I'm just sitting in like the
55:08
lounge of a posh B &B in Southford and I'm like,
55:11
Darren, do you think this will make people go
55:14
on it now? rewatch your shows because they might
55:18
not have seen them and do you think about legacy
55:21
and all this stuff? And he's clearly just like,
55:23
I can see the PR's face like, what is this question?
55:26
There's a strange... And he was just like rambling
55:28
nonsense. Anyway, the ride finally opened months
55:31
later. The Guardian like literally did a puff
55:34
feature on it that featured zero contributions
55:36
from Darren and barely anything from myself because
55:39
at that point I was probably at like... club
55:41
division or something, he was not doing the job
55:44
I was supposed to do. That's not Darren's fault
55:46
though, is it? He probably valued speaking to
55:48
a real rollercoaster fan. I don't think he did
55:50
at all. I really think he just could not wait
55:53
to get home to London to his flat, which you
55:57
see on Instagram. I will say his Instagram is
56:01
quite personal and quite good. He doesn't really
56:03
play the game on there, but obviously he lives
56:05
in a very quirky house. full of quirky artifacts.
56:08
Right. Okay. Well, it's like, I bet he has one
56:10
room that, that's like big at the, the, in the
56:12
foreground, then tiny as you walk there. And
56:15
then there's like another years to get the planning
56:18
permission for that. And there's a corridor that
56:19
like spins. It's actually better than his ghost
56:22
train. Yeah. It was sensational. Hall of mirrors
56:26
downstairs. Um, I'm glad we watched that thing.
56:29
I think it's good to try. As far as to try us
56:32
goes, I feel it's a really solid piece of entertainment.
56:35
And if you do want a glimpse into not only the
56:39
aesthetic of Britain at the time, a lot of gelled
56:43
up spiky hair, a lot of Burton Shirts. I know
56:46
I had it. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Yeah. I had my
56:49
hair like really like pure Gareth Gates. Right.
56:52
OK. OK. I would love to see that. Wait till we
56:55
start with Patreon. Please bring it back. That's
56:57
a Patreon bonus. Well, I guess we don't have
57:00
to reclaim this, but we can at least recommend
57:04
it. I would recommend it to anyone who's looking
57:08
for a bit of escapism in their lives. And I think
57:10
it's one bit of a... I forgot the world for an
57:12
hour. And Lord knows we need escapism right now,
57:15
don't we? Don't we? Yeah. And on that note...
57:18
On that note, thanks for listening to Detroiters.
57:20
I've been John Loveless. Jack. Bye. Detroit.