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Manson murders: Are there more than we know? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm not a violet human being.
0:16
Speaker 1: Did you tell the women to do their witchy things?
0:19
Speaker 1: I said, if you're going to do something, leave something witchy,
0:24
Speaker 1: just like I would tell you. If you're going to
0:26
Speaker 1: do something, do it well and leave something witchy. Leave
0:31
Speaker 1: a sign to let the world know that you were there.
0:33
Speaker 1: Have a good day. Did you tell them which words?
0:37
Speaker 1: No pig helter skelter, no rise? I stop my vocabulary,
0:43
Speaker 1: that stop my generation. I keep telling you that. Wow. Yeah,
0:47
Speaker 1: there's nothing like hearing it from the horse's mouth. Charles
0:50
Speaker 1: Manson may he wrought in hell Crime Stories with Nancy Grace?
1:10
Speaker 1: Does it never end with Charles Manson? Let's listen to
1:15
Speaker 1: the rest of that. Leslie said in the car on
1:18
Speaker 1: the way to the Lobbianca house, you said, this time,
1:22
Speaker 1: make sure they're not scared like last night. Oh no,
1:27
Speaker 1: there may have been something like this. Uh yeah, I
1:33
Speaker 1: remember something like that, but I don't remember exactly the
1:36
Speaker 1: right words. I don't remember exactly the right words. But
1:38
Speaker 1: that's that's a simple that's a simple philosophy from China.
1:42
Speaker 1: That's a Chinese philosophy. You know, if if you're gonna
1:46
Speaker 1: if you're gonna go to war and you're fighting your enemy,
1:50
Speaker 1: and you're killing when he's afraid. You know it's a
1:53
Speaker 1: bad home, and it's bad. It's bad, so you try
1:57
Speaker 1: to absorb the fear. I think the Hindus choose that word.
2:04
Speaker 1: What the h double l does this serial killer know
2:08
Speaker 1: about Chinese tradition, the art of war, and the Hindu religion?
2:14
Speaker 1: Not a d A M n thing? What the hey
2:19
Speaker 1: is he talking about? Don't kill them while they're afraid.
2:22
Speaker 1: Sharon Tate was pregnant when his quote, which he followers
2:28
Speaker 1: under his direction, slaughtered her. The Lot Bianca's begged for
2:33
Speaker 1: their lives, not afraid. My rear end right now. This
2:41
Speaker 1: cult leader's family quote family who goes on a murderous rampage,
2:49
Speaker 1: still demanding to be released. Over the course of two nights,
2:54
Speaker 1: a so called family slaughtered ten people, including pregnant star
3:01
Speaker 1: Sharon Tate. She had just made a movie debut in
3:06
Speaker 1: The Wrecking Ball, The Wrecking Train. I think she was awesome.
3:11
Speaker 1: The La Bianca's a happy family slaughtered because of Charles Manson.
3:17
Speaker 1: You were just hearing the devil himself speaking to Leslie Stall.
3:23
Speaker 1: It goes on and on with me right now, an
3:26
Speaker 1: all star panel to break it down and put it
3:27
Speaker 1: back together. Troy Slayton, high profile criminal defense attorney there
3:33
Speaker 1: in LA. Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood
3:37
Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joseph Scott Morgan, detective and
3:41
Speaker 1: author of Inside the Mind of a Serial Killer. I
3:45
Speaker 1: don't know if I want to go there. Stephen Lampley.
3:48
Speaker 1: We're now medical examiner out of South Carolina and author
3:52
Speaker 1: of homicide Investigation Field Guy. Doctor Michelle Duprey joining me
3:56
Speaker 1: right now. Crime online dot Com Investigative Report order Levi page.
4:02
Speaker 1: You know, Levi, thank you for being with us in
4:04
Speaker 1: preparation for today. I actually watched Once upon a Time
4:10
Speaker 1: in Hollywood. Now. I love Tarantino, I love his work,
4:14
Speaker 1: and I love this Levi page. What's happening with these
4:20
Speaker 1: evil killers? Now? Well, the La Times has done an
4:24
Speaker 1: investigation into a series of suspicious debts that they think
4:30
Speaker 1: that it's possible that the Manson family committed and it
4:34
Speaker 1: started with twenty nine year old Joe. You wait, Levi, Levi,
4:39
Speaker 1: hold on just a moment. You mean Charles Manson is
4:43
Speaker 1: so called family are linked potentially linked to more murders,
4:48
Speaker 1: and if so, how many more? How many are we
4:50
Speaker 1: talking about? What's the body count? We're talking about twelve
4:53
Speaker 1: that the La Times has said that the LAPD thinks
4:58
Speaker 1: that he is connected to But there are several that
5:01
Speaker 1: stand out. Twenty nine year old Joe pu He was
5:05
Speaker 1: the boyfriend of a Manson follower named Sandra Good, and
5:09
Speaker 1: Joel Pugh did not like Charles Manson. He was embarrassed
5:13
Speaker 1: that his girlfriend was following this cult. But Manson was
5:18
Speaker 1: infatuated with Sandra Good because she was a trust fund baby.
5:23
Speaker 1: When her father passed away, she started getting two grand
5:27
Speaker 1: a month and this money she was giving to Manson
5:31
Speaker 1: and his cult. So he loves Sandra Good. And Pugh
5:35
Speaker 1: was found dead in the Talgarth Hotel in London. His role.
5:40
Speaker 1: I want to tell you something he just mentioned, and
5:43
Speaker 1: I want to go to our friend Troy Slayton on this. Troy,
5:48
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna even ask you to defend that killer,
5:51
Speaker 1: Charles Manson, but I want you to look at his
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Speaker 1: m O. I really I didn't think about this part
5:58
Speaker 1: of it before until I saw two Tarantino's movie, because
6:01
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just I'm just concerned with the nuts
6:04
Speaker 1: and bolts. The facts what I can prove in court
6:06
Speaker 1: and that justice prevails. But it was very clear what
6:11
Speaker 1: Manson's m O was. You're hearing Levi Page described this
6:14
Speaker 1: trust fund baby and that Manson was all into her.
6:17
Speaker 1: He had plenty of women to sleep with, but she
6:22
Speaker 1: had money. And in this movie, Tarantino reminds me that
6:27
Speaker 1: Manson and his followers would go out like fishing for followers.
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Speaker 1: You know, lost girls that were homeless, that were rebellious,
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Speaker 1: that didn't want to be with their family, And what
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Speaker 1: could be better for Manson than a trust fund baby?
6:41
Speaker 1: That was his mo to how he developed his followers.
6:46
Speaker 1: Anyone connected with Manson who even took an ancillary step
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Speaker 1: towards committing the murder or any of those murders up
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Speaker 1: to thirty five that Manson bragged in jail that could
7:00
Speaker 1: have been committed under his direction and he was only
7:05
Speaker 1: convicted for nine. Anyone even remotely connected that took an
7:11
Speaker 1: affirmative step is also guilty of murder. Trolly, I want
7:14
Speaker 1: you to take a listen to my friend Diane Lake
7:17
Speaker 1: that I spoke with about these girls that became his
7:21
Speaker 1: devite's you, Diane Light, he fell under his spell. He,
7:28
Speaker 1: as I said, was very charismatic, playful, seemingly intelligent. And
7:39
Speaker 1: the girls, the other girls had such a devotion for him.
7:43
Speaker 1: It was easy. And being not with my family and
7:48
Speaker 1: not feeling like I really belonged with the life that
7:52
Speaker 1: they had chosen just made me and that his family,
7:58
Speaker 1: he and his family length of girls made me feel
8:02
Speaker 1: so welcomed and part of them. That was the that
8:08
Speaker 1: was the magic. Have they lost their minds? That was
8:13
Speaker 1: Diane Lane who actually was with Manson. Have the magic?
8:20
Speaker 1: What magic? I mean? Joseph Scott Morgan, you're the forensic expert.
8:25
Speaker 1: How many times have you and I seen murders where
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Speaker 1: one person or more than one person is totally enamored
8:35
Speaker 1: with the devil? That would be Charles Manson. They'll do
8:37
Speaker 1: whatever he says. Yeah. And you know, one of the
8:39
Speaker 1: one of the things that's always kind of come through
8:42
Speaker 1: with all of this is that we heard in the
8:44
Speaker 1: in the beginning, you know that clip where he said
8:47
Speaker 1: do something witchy. Uh, he had these people under a spell.
8:51
Speaker 1: And one of the things that's kind of floated to
8:52
Speaker 1: the top over the years is that he would actually
8:56
Speaker 1: as a collective, have these have these young runaway earls
9:01
Speaker 1: plied with like hallucinogens, and he would fake actually taking
9:05
Speaker 1: them himself. And then as they're under the influence of
9:08
Speaker 1: these things, he would begin to espouse his philosophies and
9:12
Speaker 1: preach to them and in effect kind of perform a
9:15
Speaker 1: brainwashing over these people and affect them as to what
9:18
Speaker 1: they're going to do. And you've got all of these
9:20
Speaker 1: vulnerable kids that are essentially just kind of lost kids
9:23
Speaker 1: that are on the street that he would take in
9:25
Speaker 1: and they would go out and just slaughter people, as
9:27
Speaker 1: we see in the Tate Lobby on kohomicide crime stories
9:45
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. The Medicine family is mostly remember for
9:50
Speaker 1: two events, and that would be the murderer of Sharon
9:54
Speaker 1: Tate and for others there in Benedict Canyon and butchering
9:59
Speaker 1: Leno and rose Mary Lo Bianca and Los Felice. But
10:03
Speaker 1: now cold case investigators and others say that Charles Manson
10:08
Speaker 1: and his cult followers murdered many more people. LAPD officially
10:15
Speaker 1: has a dozen unsolved homicides that they are linking to Manson.
10:21
Speaker 1: There are other murders outside la that many believed to
10:25
Speaker 1: be the work of the Manson family and some of
10:29
Speaker 1: the connections are extremely, extremely believable, but he didn't just
10:37
Speaker 1: apply them with dope. Listen to Diane Lake. For a
10:41
Speaker 1: fourteen year old girl essentially living in a sex relationship
10:45
Speaker 1: with a thirty four year old man, Charles Manson, I
10:48
Speaker 1: spend a lot of time, you know, just outside in
10:54
Speaker 1: nature enjoying. And I did. I did enjoy living at
10:58
Speaker 1: Spawn Ranch, beautiful hills and trees and rocks and little streams,
11:05
Speaker 1: and I remember spending a lot of time out in nature.
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Speaker 1: You know, I didn't have sex every day. It was
11:14
Speaker 1: not it was not that concentrated or that that wasn't
11:19
Speaker 1: the total focus. You know, when you say we didn't
11:23
Speaker 1: have sex every day, well, you know, Diane, most fourteen
11:27
Speaker 1: year old girls don't have sex ever because it's actually
11:31
Speaker 1: statutory rape. So to hear you say that, I just
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Speaker 1: think of you as a fourteen year old girl in
11:40
Speaker 1: that world. You are hearing me speaking with the youngest
11:44
Speaker 1: that we know of vance and follower, Diane Lake, and boy,
11:48
Speaker 1: my eyes were opened up when I talked to her.
11:51
Speaker 1: We learned that the LAPD is linking many, many more
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Speaker 1: murders to than Manson family. And this after Bruce Davis
11:59
Speaker 1: who was sent us to death for murder the murders
12:02
Speaker 1: of Shorty Shaye Garry Heman. You know, he was sentenced
12:05
Speaker 1: to death. Then California got rid of the death penalty.
12:09
Speaker 1: His sentence was commuted to life. He was actually granted parole.
12:13
Speaker 1: Gavin Newsom overturns the decision straight back out to leave
12:17
Speaker 1: ipage Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter. Now, the LAPD
12:22
Speaker 1: has absolutely linked multiple murders back to the Manson family.
12:26
Speaker 1: Why now they're taking a second look at these cases
12:31
Speaker 1: And a lot of the prosecutors in this case, Stephen
12:34
Speaker 1: Kay and Vincent Bugliosi, have long thought that they were
12:38
Speaker 1: connected to a lot of these murders. At the La
12:40
Speaker 1: Times is publishing and writing about now, and what stands
12:45
Speaker 1: out to me is we were talking about Sandra Good,
12:48
Speaker 1: the young woman that Manson was infatuated with because she
12:52
Speaker 1: got two grand a month from a trust fund. You
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Speaker 1: know back then that was a lot of money. And
12:57
Speaker 1: her boyfriend was embarrassed that she was a member of
13:00
Speaker 1: this cult and he was actually very depressed that she
13:04
Speaker 1: was cheating on him, was a member of this cult,
13:08
Speaker 1: and he was killed in a hotel in London. His
13:10
Speaker 1: throat was slashed, and investigators in London determined that the
13:14
Speaker 1: twenty nine year old killed himself from suicide. They say
13:18
Speaker 1: he was depressed. However, what's so bizarre is that the
13:23
Speaker 1: mirror in his hotel room actually had stuff written on it,
13:28
Speaker 1: but investigators are not releasing what it was, and they
13:30
Speaker 1: didn't take photographic evidence and save it. They just brushed
13:34
Speaker 1: it off as a suicide. His throat was slashed and
13:39
Speaker 1: so were his wrist. It was a bloody scene that
13:42
Speaker 1: they just said was suicide. But what links this to
13:47
Speaker 1: Manson is that Bruce Davis, he just mentioned, he was
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Speaker 1: a member of this cult. He had killed people, participated
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Speaker 1: in several murders. He was in London at the time
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Speaker 1: that Joel Pugh killed himself allegedly. He was a member
14:03
Speaker 1: of the Church of Scientology and he was there in
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Speaker 1: London at the time that this young man allegedly killed himself.
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Speaker 1: And that's why a lot of people think that this
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Speaker 1: was not suicide, that this was murder, and that Bruce
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Speaker 1: Davis was involved in it too. Doctor Michelle Dupre, medical examiner,
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Speaker 1: author of Homicide Investiation Field Guide. As of right now,
14:23
Speaker 1: the LPD is connecting Charles Manson and his groupies to
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Speaker 1: even more murders. Well, I'm glad they're doing it, but
14:32
Speaker 1: in many people's books, it's a day late and a
14:34
Speaker 1: dollar short, Doctor Michelle Dupree, What if anything can be
14:39
Speaker 1: gained from the murder victim's bodies this long after the murders, Well,
14:46
Speaker 1: a couple of things. Really. We can look at the
14:49
Speaker 1: way that the person was murdered. A lot of times,
14:54
Speaker 1: suspects have a certain preferred weapon. They also have a
14:58
Speaker 1: certain method of doing things that have a signature. We
15:01
Speaker 1: can tie those together. Certainly, there is any DNA we
15:05
Speaker 1: can look at that. Even if we can't tie the
15:08
Speaker 1: DNA to a person, we can tie it to the
15:10
Speaker 1: same unknown suspect, and that helps us to provide linka
15:14
Speaker 1: just to these other crimes as well as any Perhaps
15:17
Speaker 1: Trice Aft wants you to hear what authorities have to
15:20
Speaker 1: say about Jane Doe fifty nine, as she has been
15:26
Speaker 1: called Jane Doe fifty nine. This is freelance reporter Robert
15:31
Speaker 1: Dike dot an anatomy of her murder. Just four months
15:35
Speaker 1: prior to the murder, members of the Manson family, living
15:37
Speaker 1: at Spahn Ranch committed the infamous Tate La Bianca murders.
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Speaker 1: Authorities thought it was possible that the young woman may
15:45
Speaker 1: have met her end at the hands of Manson and
15:47
Speaker 1: his followers due to the close proximity of her dump
15:51
Speaker 1: site to the Tate murder site. However, no strong leads
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Speaker 1: came from this. Jane Doe Number fifty nine's image was
15:58
Speaker 1: reconstructed in hopes of gaining more exposure and recognition. However,
16:03
Speaker 1: her body remained unidentified, so she was cremated and buried
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Speaker 1: in a mass grave. The box containing her case files,
16:10
Speaker 1: dental records, fingerprints, and a blood soaked bra with her
16:14
Speaker 1: DNA was filed away in an evidence locker with the
16:18
Speaker 1: hope that someday someone would identify her. You are hearing
16:22
Speaker 1: a freelance reporter, Rob Dyke in anatomy of a murder.
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Speaker 1: What I don't understand. If a freelance reporter knows this,
16:30
Speaker 1: then how can police were not pursuing it. Take a
16:32
Speaker 1: listen to Dike. When the LAPD formed its cold case
16:36
Speaker 1: squad in the early two thousands, detective Cliff Shepherd discovered
16:40
Speaker 1: the bloody bra in her case file and hoped it
16:42
Speaker 1: could help family members identify Jane Doe. He submitted her
16:46
Speaker 1: DNA into databases across the country and released her post
16:50
Speaker 1: mortem photo to the DOE network and National Missing an
16:53
Speaker 1: Unidentified Person's system. However, another decade passed without any answers
17:00
Speaker 1: until twenty fifteen that childhood friends of a missing woman
17:04
Speaker 1: from Montreal, Canada, spotted the profile of Jane Doe, number
17:07
Speaker 1: fifty nine in the National Missing and Unidentified Person System.
17:11
Speaker 1: They contacted Anne Jurvitson, who immediately recognized her sister and
17:16
Speaker 1: the photos taken at the Morgue. In April of twenty sixteen,
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Speaker 1: a DNA test confirmed Anne Jurvitson's worst fears. Jane Doe's
17:26
Speaker 1: real name was Rate Sylvia Jurvitson Rate Sylvia Jurvitson aka
17:32
Speaker 1: Jane Doe fifty nine, believed to be yet another victim
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Speaker 1: of the Manson family due to proximity. At the time,
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Speaker 1: she was not identified and they cremated her. Oh, Dear Lord,
17:45
Speaker 1: does it never end? Crime stories with Nancy Grace Great
18:02
Speaker 1: Sylvia Jervison aka Jane Doe fifty nine, believed to be
18:07
Speaker 1: yet another victim of the Manson family. At the time,
18:11
Speaker 1: she was not identified and they cremated her. Police kept
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Speaker 1: a file however, included her blood soaked broad dental in
18:20
Speaker 1: records and fingerprints which could be probitive filed away in
18:25
Speaker 1: an evidence locker. To Stephen Lampley, detective an author of
18:30
Speaker 1: Inside the Mind of a Serial Killer, Stephen Lampley, I
18:34
Speaker 1: find it very difficult to believe that a young girl
18:37
Speaker 1: like Riek Jervison ends up dead so close to the
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Speaker 1: Manson family farm, murdered. She fits the profile of all
18:47
Speaker 1: his other followers. She was stabbed clearly, just like the
18:52
Speaker 1: Tates and the lobbyonca is brutally stabbed and it was
18:57
Speaker 1: never connected. I mean, it's so obvious to me. Steve Lampley,
19:00
Speaker 1: What do you make of it? You're the expert inside
19:04
Speaker 1: the mind of a serial killer? Man, see, I agree
19:06
Speaker 1: with you. Now. Why they didn't make the connection Adam
19:10
Speaker 1: a clue? I really don't know. But there were other murders,
19:13
Speaker 1: as these other twelve proved as well, and Manson themselves said,
19:18
Speaker 1: now he killed thirty five. Of course Manson is a
19:21
Speaker 1: known liar, but there's no reason to believe that he
19:25
Speaker 1: didn't kill thirty five, or maybe he killed fifty. There's
19:29
Speaker 1: no way of knowing the problem we have, or they're
19:32
Speaker 1: going to have is that in nineteen sixty in California, Nancy,
19:39
Speaker 1: there were six hundred and sixteen murders. Now that increased
19:44
Speaker 1: to around fourteen hundred in nineteen sixty nine. There was
19:48
Speaker 1: a one hundred and twenty five percent increase in homicides
19:52
Speaker 1: while there was only a twenty four percent increase in population.
19:56
Speaker 1: So were any of these copycats? I don't know where
20:00
Speaker 1: they're similar, just by nature that we don't know good
20:03
Speaker 1: Manson doom at this point we're looking at that. So yeah,
20:06
Speaker 1: but I agree with you. Why didn't stand out? I
20:09
Speaker 1: really don't know why they didn't want it, didn't latch
20:11
Speaker 1: onto that and go with it to you? Leavi Pays
20:13
Speaker 1: joining me crime online dot Com investigative reporter. What can
20:16
Speaker 1: you tell me about a series of tapes that have
20:19
Speaker 1: just been unearthed? Yes, these are tapes where some of
20:24
Speaker 1: the members are talking about a lot of the unsolved
20:29
Speaker 1: murders or suspicious debts here that we're discussing. And I
20:35
Speaker 1: want to mention Riek Jervidson Nancy. She was stabbed one
20:39
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty times in the neck, and she went
20:42
Speaker 1: to California, LA after meeting a Manson follower at a
20:47
Speaker 1: coffee shop in Montreal. What are the chances that she
20:51
Speaker 1: meets a Manson follower, moves to LA and then is
20:54
Speaker 1: killed by someone else other than a Manson follower. I mean,
20:58
Speaker 1: that seems extremely bizarre and strange that someone else outside
21:04
Speaker 1: of the Manson family cult would end up killing. The
21:08
Speaker 1: tapes seem to be very indicative that there are other
21:12
Speaker 1: that there are other murders. The tapes include conversations between
21:18
Speaker 1: convict to killer Charles Techs Watson and his lawyers, and
21:23
Speaker 1: the LAPD got the tapes after a legal battle. What
21:28
Speaker 1: do we know? We know that they seem to indicate
21:32
Speaker 1: other murders were perpetrated by the Manson family. Now, a
21:36
Speaker 1: judge ruled in twenty seventeen Leslie Van Houghton could not
21:40
Speaker 1: have the recordings as part of her efforts to gain parole.
21:45
Speaker 1: To Levi Page climb online dot Com investigative reporter Levi,
21:51
Speaker 1: how did the La Times manage to get the tapes
21:53
Speaker 1: and what if anything are they doing with them? So
21:55
Speaker 1: they're reviewing these tapes to see to hear and listen
22:00
Speaker 1: to these conversations between these cult members to see if
22:04
Speaker 1: they can garner any clues and connect them to these
22:08
Speaker 1: unsolved murders. And Stephen Kay, one of the prosecutors in
22:13
Speaker 1: this case, and his partner, Vincent Bugliosi, had always suspected
22:18
Speaker 1: that they were involved in more murders than what they
22:21
Speaker 1: were convicted of. And it's so interesting that these tapes
22:26
Speaker 1: are not made public. I think they should be made
22:30
Speaker 1: public so that the public, the people out there, can
22:34
Speaker 1: decide from themselves of whether or not a thorough investigation
22:38
Speaker 1: was done, whether or not these killers, some of which
22:41
Speaker 1: have been granted parole, are responsible for more murders. You know,
22:47
Speaker 1: to Troy Slayton, veteran criminal defense attorney joined me from
22:51
Speaker 1: that jurisdiction, did you know that Manson told Salemates he
22:56
Speaker 1: was responsible for thirty five murders? What do you make
23:01
Speaker 1: of that? You need other evidence, Nancy, Simply admitting to
23:05
Speaker 1: a murder is not enough to convict a person of murder.
23:09
Speaker 1: I could walk into the LAPD and say I committed
23:12
Speaker 1: thirty five murders, arrest me, and I don't think they're
23:16
Speaker 1: going to unless there's other evidence. So these tapes that
23:23
Speaker 1: they fought to keep out of the hands of investigators
23:28
Speaker 1: maybe may provide those clues. As far as police detectives
23:33
Speaker 1: are concerned a case is never closed until there's a
23:38
Speaker 1: conviction for murder. Well, this is what we know about
23:42
Speaker 1: Jane Do fifty nine, also known as Rit Jervison. Now,
23:47
Speaker 1: I was very friendly with Bougliosi. He wrote Helter Skelter.
23:51
Speaker 1: As we all know, he was a proponent that she,
23:55
Speaker 1: Jane Do fifty nine, was killed because she witnessed one
23:59
Speaker 1: of the Man and Family murders. Listen to this. Joe
24:04
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, forensic expert, author of Blood Beneath My Feet.
24:09
Speaker 1: Jane Do fifty nine read was stabbed one hundred and
24:13
Speaker 1: fifty times. A birdwatcher found her on mondel Holland Drive,
24:19
Speaker 1: just six miles from Spawn Ranch where Benedict Canyon is
24:25
Speaker 1: and where Tate and the others were killed, just six
24:28
Speaker 1: miles from the Benedict Kenyon home where Sharon Tate was killed.
24:33
Speaker 1: Now she's been identified. She was just nineteen years old
24:37
Speaker 1: at the side at the time. She's been identified with DNA,
24:41
Speaker 1: and she came to LA from Canada, and she joined
24:47
Speaker 1: a guy that she thought looked like Jim Morrison. I mean,
24:53
Speaker 1: obviously it's Charles Manson. Joe Scott Morgan, what do I
24:56
Speaker 1: have to do connect the dots and send the picture
24:58
Speaker 1: to the LAPD. Think that that's I think that it's
25:01
Speaker 1: it's connectivity with all of these things. One of the
25:04
Speaker 1: most striking things that kind of you know, floors you
25:08
Speaker 1: is what you mentioned. What was that number you gave
25:11
Speaker 1: me again relative to how many times she was stabbed?
25:15
Speaker 1: She was stabbed one hundred and fifty times one hundred
25:19
Speaker 1: and that sounds like a group killing. That sounds like
25:21
Speaker 1: people were joining in on the stabbing, like murder on
25:24
Speaker 1: the Orient express as anybody seen that act of the
25:27
Speaker 1: Christie novel. Everybody had a reason to kill this one person,
25:32
Speaker 1: and they all stabbed him, and there were multiple stab wounds.
25:36
Speaker 1: It really threw kuere Parrot into a fit, let me
25:40
Speaker 1: tell you. But one hundred and fifty stab wounds, that's
25:43
Speaker 1: more than one person. Joe Scott helped me out here. Yeah, yeah,
25:46
Speaker 1: it really is, unless unless you're dealing with a single person.
25:50
Speaker 1: That is just so psychotic. But look look back at
25:53
Speaker 1: what we're talking about relative to just as an example,
25:57
Speaker 1: the Tate, the Tate murders, Uh, those those are a
26:02
Speaker 1: signature of overkill. You've got this this bloody orgy that
26:06
Speaker 1: is essentially taking place, and he cut these people loose, uh,
26:11
Speaker 1: like like you know, guard dogs on these on these
26:15
Speaker 1: poor victims, and just absolutely ripped them the shred and
26:18
Speaker 1: the shreds. And this is one of the things that
26:20
Speaker 1: we look for in these serialized events like this, this
26:23
Speaker 1: signature pattern that goes along. And unfortunately this poor girl, uh.
26:28
Speaker 1: And you know, having worked at the Emmy's office in
26:31
Speaker 1: Atlanta and in New Orleans with a coroner's office, I've
26:34
Speaker 1: been to these mass graves where we have to bury
26:37
Speaker 1: bodies all at once. They've stopped cremating bodies nowadays, they
26:41
Speaker 1: just bury them in mass graves. But in her case,
26:44
Speaker 1: she was actually cremated. The family has nothing to go
26:47
Speaker 1: back to. Fortunately, you know, they had this bra uh
26:51
Speaker 1: that gave them some indication of who she was, and
26:54
Speaker 1: they followed that thread. But but you know, she's just
26:57
Speaker 1: one person and how many other person how many other
27:01
Speaker 1: persons were there that he was cut loose upon. Take
27:05
Speaker 1: a listen to Vinci Biliosi, the faint prosecutor who brought
27:08
Speaker 1: down Manson, speaking to La Times writer Richard Winton here
27:12
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two, the California and US Supreme courts
27:16
Speaker 1: both rule that the death penalty was unconstitutional. He I
27:20
Speaker 1: think enjoys his notoriety steeped in infamy as it is.
27:27
Speaker 1: You know, after my trial, or after my trying him
27:31
Speaker 1: and convicted him, he told me, He says, you know,
27:34
Speaker 1: mister Billiosi, you haven't achieved anything at all. All All you've
27:36
Speaker 1: done is send me back to where I came from.
27:39
Speaker 1: At We used to have sarcastic conversations back and forth.
27:42
Speaker 1: And I said, yes, Charlie, but as far as I know,
27:43
Speaker 1: you've never been to the green room before. That's the
27:45
Speaker 1: apple green room at San Quentin, the gas chamber. He
27:49
Speaker 1: just smiled. But the next year I was listening to
27:52
Speaker 1: the radio and I heard that the Supreme Court United
27:55
Speaker 1: States had set aside the death penalty. And the first
27:57
Speaker 1: thought that came into my mind was what Manson had
28:01
Speaker 1: told me. He gets out of prison in nineteen sixty seven,
28:06
Speaker 1: thirty two years of age. Seventeen out of those thirty
28:09
Speaker 1: two years has been spending jail's reformatories in prison, so
28:12
Speaker 1: he doesn't mind prison life. He's totally institutionalized. Time stories
28:30
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. How does one person brainwash so many people?
28:39
Speaker 1: Take a Listen to Charles Manson in his own word,
28:42
Speaker 1: speaking to sixty Minutes Australia. Well you're happy when you
28:44
Speaker 1: found out you weren't going to go to the gas chamber, Charleson,
28:48
Speaker 1: I knew I wasn't going to go to the gas
28:49
Speaker 1: chamber because I hadn't done anything wrong. You're scared to
28:55
Speaker 1: die sometimes I feel I'm scared to live. Living it's
29:02
Speaker 1: what scares me. Dying is easy. How long have I
29:07
Speaker 1: been in jail? Thirty four years? Thirty four years, so
29:11
Speaker 1: out of forty seven, you've been here thirty four. I've
29:13
Speaker 1: been in jail, prison a long time all my life.
29:19
Speaker 1: I was raised up in here, so I understand jail,
29:22
Speaker 1: so I understand myself and I can deal with that.
29:25
Speaker 1: I sat in my cell and I do my number
29:28
Speaker 1: like a convict does his number. But there's different colors
29:32
Speaker 1: on different people's backs, doing different things. It's a different world.
29:35
Speaker 1: I love the world I live into, just like Regan
29:38
Speaker 1: loves the world he lives in. You love the world
29:40
Speaker 1: you live in. Most shared Choice Layton, high profile criminal
29:45
Speaker 1: defense attorney in LA without naming names, have you ever
29:48
Speaker 1: had a client, a criminal defendant that seemed to have
29:52
Speaker 1: mind control over codefendants I've had in my years as
29:57
Speaker 1: an attorney and several years in the DA's office in
30:02
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, I've seen many co defendants who seem to
30:08
Speaker 1: have had some sort of unusual power over other co defendants.
30:15
Speaker 1: I don't think I've had a case of mind control,
30:19
Speaker 1: but it seems like there are undue pressures that several
30:25
Speaker 1: co defendants could place, much like Manson had control over
30:31
Speaker 1: all of the Manson family, as it's called. And so
30:36
Speaker 1: LAPD now is looking at these twelve unsolved murders and
30:44
Speaker 1: following every investigative lead that they can. And there are
30:48
Speaker 1: several others in other jurisdictions besides LAPD that are still
30:52
Speaker 1: looking at these cold cases to try and bring to
30:57
Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley, detective, author of Inside the Mind of a
31:00
Speaker 1: Serial Killer. Why anybody would be brainwashed by somebody like
31:04
Speaker 1: Charles Manson or let's just say Jim Jones, or there
31:07
Speaker 1: was Sante and Kenneth Kimes. Kenneth Kimes is brainwashed by
31:11
Speaker 1: his mother. How you get people to go along with you?
31:16
Speaker 1: For instance, in the Sarah Stern murder The Teen Girl.
31:19
Speaker 1: How in the world did Liam Mactasney get a friend
31:22
Speaker 1: from high school to help get rid of her body.
31:25
Speaker 1: I mean, how do they do it? What kind of
31:28
Speaker 1: mind control do they work on? The codefendants? Well, and
31:35
Speaker 1: they're charismatic, they're outgoing that the people like them. And
31:39
Speaker 1: there's something that there's a condition called also called hybristophilia,
31:45
Speaker 1: which is an attraction to dangerous people that actually exists
31:51
Speaker 1: where people are attracted to their renegade direct bulls, the murderers,
31:55
Speaker 1: if you will, James Warren James Jones was able to
31:59
Speaker 1: con it's one hundred, couple hundred of folks. I don't
32:03
Speaker 1: know the number. It's just people are looking and that's
32:07
Speaker 1: the way that that's the way the gangs have succeeded.
32:10
Speaker 1: They're looking for people who want to be a part
32:13
Speaker 1: of something. They're looking for people who want to get
32:16
Speaker 1: away from where they are and be a part of
32:18
Speaker 1: something more, to be a part of a group, be
32:20
Speaker 1: a part of a quote unquote family. I guess, if
32:23
Speaker 1: you will, what about it? It's just Scott Morgan, you
32:24
Speaker 1: and I have investigated so many cases. I've never understood
32:29
Speaker 1: why people just fall in lockstep. And by the way,
32:32
Speaker 1: lockstep is a referral back to Hitler and Nazi Germany
32:38
Speaker 1: and the way thousands of people would march in lock
32:42
Speaker 1: step at Hitler's behest, an evil, maniacal devil, and people
32:49
Speaker 1: just followed along. And even to this day there are
32:54
Speaker 1: nuts who insist that Hitler ever murdered millions of Jews
33:03
Speaker 1: and others. It's incredible that people could think that at
33:10
Speaker 1: the time, everyone followed along with him. Joe Scott, we've
33:15
Speaker 1: seen it many many times before. Yeah, we have, Nancy,
33:20
Speaker 1: and let me let me kind of let me kind
33:23
Speaker 1: of paint Charles Manson in a different light here, and
33:26
Speaker 1: I know that you've seen this. Charles Manson was nothing
33:30
Speaker 1: more than a psychotic pimp, is what it comes down to.
33:34
Speaker 1: That preyed on young girls. And you and I have
33:37
Speaker 1: both seen these pimps out in the world of crime
33:43
Speaker 1: that take these girls in, they use them for sex personally,
33:47
Speaker 1: and then they sell them to people on the streets.
33:51
Speaker 1: You know, Manson had a long history of pimping and
33:55
Speaker 1: being involved in the flesh trade, if you will, And
33:58
Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, he targets the most
34:01
Speaker 1: vulnerable among us and that's how he got Look, these
34:04
Speaker 1: people need a roof over their head, clothes on their back,
34:07
Speaker 1: they'd like a little cash in their pocket, they want food,
34:10
Speaker 1: and they're looking for somebody to parent them. And he
34:14
Speaker 1: is just this kind of weasel. You know, all these
34:16
Speaker 1: big pronouncements that he used to make from jail. He's
34:19
Speaker 1: a tiny, diminutive guy. He's nothing more than a pimp
34:23
Speaker 1: that's in a jail, has a low self esteem, and
34:26
Speaker 1: he's just trying to protect hisself. He always dances around everything.
34:30
Speaker 1: You listen to every conversation he's ever been in. He
34:32
Speaker 1: will never directly admit to anything. He always puts it off. Well,
34:36
Speaker 1: it's just the universe causing all of this stuff to happen.
34:40
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, he's a common petty
34:42
Speaker 1: pimp that manipulated people. We wait as justice unfolds. Are
34:48
Speaker 1: the murders connected to Charles Manson in a so called
34:50
Speaker 1: family Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off goodbye friend.