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CLASSIC: Digging Up James K Polk (For the Third Time) · Ridiculous History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. We wish
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: you well in the upcoming year. We wanted to, as
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: we said, take some time off for the week. I'm
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: going on a couple of adventures. I think the rest
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: of us are too. In the meantime, One thing we
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: can tell you is that this classic episode stands out
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: to us because people kept digging up former president James K.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Polk. Leave James K. Polk alone his desiccated corpse. Yeah,
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: why did they do this? You might ask, Well, why
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: don't you stay tuned to find out in this classic episode.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Let's open today's
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: show with a tiny bit of trivia. My name is
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Ben and I was actually born in Nashville.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: My name is Nola, and I have been to Nashville once,
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: but my driver's license expired, so I didn't get to
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: go to any of the sweet honky tonks.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Oh that's a shame, you know. We should go to
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Nashville together. We should take a road trip. It's a
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: pretty swell place. You'd like it.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: No, I like the street. I bought a hot dog.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: All my friends went to Robert's Western World which is
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: apparently the spot where all of the grizzled Nashville session
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: guys just show up at two in the afternoon and
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: play till three in the morning, just like you do.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: And I really felt like I missed out on something.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: But I'll tell you what I did not miss out
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: on a bit. Well, what's that I recently returned from
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: a work trip to Los Angeles where I happened upon
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: a little place called the Museum of Death.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes, you went.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: I did go. Refused, and I'm not going to talk
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: too much about this, but they do not allow photo
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: for good reason. It's quite grizzly, quite upsetting. And they
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: had a whole section with funereal artifacts, embalming tools, and
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: they had a quite impressive collection of coffins. And I
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: only bring this up because today we're talking about digging
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: up bodies. That is the base level for my segue, right.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: So, for everybody wondering, Ben, why are you giving us
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: personal information about Nashville, Noel, why are you telling us
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: about coffinry, It's because those two things do have an
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: alarming and we think fascinating connection point here in today's episode,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: if you visit the Tennessee State Capitol in Nashville. You'll
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: see President Andrew Johnson, who's got sort of this wind
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: swept thing, kind of prefiguring Claire all herbal essences commercials, a.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Bit of a fabio look, if we're being honest. And
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: then you have the other Andrew. That would be Jackson
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: sitting astride his trustees steed in rearing back kind of pose,
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: looking a little bit windswept himself, but with a little
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: bit more of an.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Edge to him, a little panash. I believe he's tipping
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: his hat. Here's the thing, folks. Neither of those presidents
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: are actually buried at the Tennessee State Capitol, but those
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: statues are so prominent that they've become local landmarks. And
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: there's another important thing, because it turns out they overshadow
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: another president.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: That's right, poor James K. Polk the US is eleventh president,
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: who along with his wife Sarah, are currently buried on
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: those grounds of the Tennessee State Capitol. And a very
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: modest compared to the giant sweeping statues, a modest structure
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: that is kind of flanked by these columns, and it
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: was actually designed by the same architect that designed the
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: US state capitol in kind of a Greek style.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: And as we record today's episode, turns out that Sarah
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: and James may not be located there much longer. You see,
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: there's a movement to disinterer or exhuom the Polk couple
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: and move them about fifty miles away to their family's
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: historic home, which is actually in a town called Columbia.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: Very close to Murfreesboro. If I'm not mistaken, is there
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: r silent in Murfreesboro.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: I've always I've always kind of been winging it. Yeah,
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: we get some we got some great pronunciation emails earlier,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: I believe in the show. So help us out this time, folks,
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Murfreesboro versus murphy Feesborough. Yeah, that is the question.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: But Columbia is in fact a pretty small town near
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Murphysboro that is largely known for its yearly Mule Festival.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of festivals, man, and it's time
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: that the mule finally got its due. Yeah.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: I mean it's more than just a little horse, right,
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: And I mean.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: Just because it's a relatively small species doesn't mean it's
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: not a big deal. Technically, a mule is the offspring
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: of a male donkey and a female horse, so it's
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: a different species that's interesting.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: Only mentioning this to show that, you know, Columbia charming
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: place to live, I'm sure.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: But Broadway it's not Broadway.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: It is not not a whole lot of tourist attractions
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: for this city, and I think there are some that
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: hope that might change with the movement to move said
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: presidents remains right.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: So Polk was born in North Carolina in seventeen ninety five,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: but his family did eventually move to the Tennessee Frontier,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: where his father built a home there in Columbia in
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: eighteen sixteen, and because he lived there for several years
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: as a ute as an adolescent, the home now serves
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: as the James K. Polk Museum. And this happens very
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: often here in the United States. I don't know whether
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: it's the case in other countries, but in our neck
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: of the Global Woods, a famous, historically influential person just
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: has to spend time and a location for it to become,
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: you know, their ancestral home or their museum. It doesn't
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: have to be the place where Mark Twain rag or
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Allan Poe was born necessarily. It could be the home
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: where Mark Twain lived or Samuel Clemens lived in I
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: think Springfield, Connecticut. You know, he wasn't a kid there.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: That's that's where he lived and lost a bunch of
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: money betting on terrible inventions.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Niche. But let's let's get knock at two ahead of ourselves.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: What was Poke known for? Ben He was only one
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: term president, but accomplished a pretty scene amount of stuff, right, he.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Did some great stuff. I want to open with his nicknames, though,
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: because I think they're hilarious. Every president has a bunch
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: of nicknames, and just a few of James Knox Polk's
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  Speaker 1: nicknames would be Napoleon of the Stump and Young Hickory.
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  Speaker 2: And the reason he was Young Hickory was because when
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: he was Speaker of the House really trumpeted his mentor
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: Andrew Jackson's policies, and that informed a lot of what
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: he would accomplish as president in terms of really pushing
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: hard for this manifest destiny idea of expanding the United
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: States borders to the Pacific that we will get into
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: that shortly. That was one of the accomplishments. But Old
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: Hickory was Andrew Jackson's nickname, and so that he was
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: his boy, Little Hickory, Young Hickory.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was definitely a protege.
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  Speaker 2: So Polk had actually been a lawyer, and while he
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: was in law school, he clerked for the state Senate,
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: and then in eighteen twenty three he got elected to
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: the ten the Seahouse of Representatives and was re elected
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: a whopping six times, where he eventually became the Speaker,
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: and that's when he was able to really champion Andrew
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: Jackson's various political positions and got that nickname Young Hickory.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: He actually went on to become Tennessee's ninth governor.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: And in eighteen forty four he became President of the
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: United States. He was forty nine years old, which sounds,
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: you know, like a pretty cool batting average now, but
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: at the time he was the youngest candidate ever to
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: become president.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: So there's a there's a star, gold Star forum. Definitely
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: young Hickory, totally young Hickory for days. He also re
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: established the treasury system, which was kind of a precursor
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: to what we have today under the Federal Reserve. He
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: created the Naval Academy, and legislation that he signed actually
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: established the creation of the Smithsonian Institution, which is responsible
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: for preserving artifacts and American culture.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: And it is free to is it. Additionally, let's see
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: what's the best way to say this. During his administration,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: the very first US postage stamp was issued, which is
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: still a big deal today for philitalists in the crowd.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: Pinnag you just pull that word right off the top
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: of your dome.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Sort of, but I didn't make it up. It is
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: the fancy word for stamp collectors. Yeeh.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: I should have guessed that, but that is a weird
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: one for me.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: Voluminous is the fancy word for matchbook collectors. I am
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: full of cartoonishly specific words. But we are talking about
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: specific and historically significant actions by the eleventh President.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: And there's the real big one that we hinted that
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: earlier with this whole idea of manifest destiny, which was
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: the notion that the US should basically colonize other places.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: And during the Mexican American War, James K. Polk pushed
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: pretty damn hard to make that happen and had some success, didn't.
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  Speaker 1: He, Yes, he did. He He was instrumental in expanding
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  Speaker 1: the territory of the United States by more than eight
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: hundred thousand square miles, which means it goes all the way.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: This is where it became a sea to Shining Sea country.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. In eighteen thirty six, Texas, which was at the
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: time ruled by Mexico, was given independence and it was
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: not initially incorporated into the Union. And this became an
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: issue after that and continuous raids by the Mexican government,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: And then in eighteen forty four when Polk was elected,
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: he pushed really hard to re annex Texas, which is
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: kind of what set off this conflict. What does that
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  Speaker 2: mean again, Ben.
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  Speaker 1: This would mean that the territory at hand becomes part
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: of the United States property of it. So, for instance,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: if the US today were to annex Baja California, or
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: if Baja California were to annex California right, then what
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: that would mean is this territory would become the property
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: of the governing state. Annexation is typically not a move
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: that everyone agrees with. Right, So if our super producer
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: Casey Pegram and you and I are each three state
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: actors who are neighbors, and two of us decide to
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: split up the other one's property and annexit, it's pretty
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: much a declaration.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Of war exactly. And also part of the reason that
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: there was some issue with making Texas part of the
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: Union was that lawmakers did not want another slave state.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: And then there were these, you know, occasional raids, border
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: raids by the Mexican government. But like we said, when
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: Polk was elected, he threw all that aside and re
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: annexation procedures began, and this set off the war, and ultimately,
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: long story short, we won and we got a whole
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: bunch of land as a result. And that all happened
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: under the watch of James K. Polk during his very
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: short presidency, which was.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: A purposeful presidency. You see. He was a one term
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: president by design, that was part of his campaign platform,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: and unlike many, many, many, many, many other state leaders
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: or politicians in general, he kept his word and after
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: four years in the White House he returned to Tennessee.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: We do want to make a note here that the
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Mexican American War, and indeed all wars, are tragic things.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: This was not necessarily a position where there were clear
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: cuts good or bad guys in the United States, and many,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: many organizations commanded by the United States did horrific things.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean in the American military vastly outnumbered
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: the Mexican forces. It was sort of a you know,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: shooting fish in a barrel kind of not an equal
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: playing field.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Now, So what happened after Polk left the presidency.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: He died, That's right.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: He did pass away, as people are unfortunately wont to do.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: He died on June fifteenth, eighteen forty nine, so not
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: long after he served his term as president, and he
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: passed away in Nashville, Tennessee.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: He did. And it's actually super interesting because he passed
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: away after contracting cholera, and at the time there had
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: been a massive cholera outbreak in Nashville such that there
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: was a city ordinance that required any cholera victim be
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: buried in the local municipal cemetery.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, right, so don't even have their bodies around for
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: say a family ceremony or something.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: And so Polk's first burial place was very specifically tied
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: to these conditions that it was just they had to
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: do it. They put him there with everyone else who
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: had suffered from this disease.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: And his after his post presidency of one hundred and
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: three days, the shortest of any president. He did not
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: die in office. I believe it was. It was about
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: a year after, isn't that right, nol where they his
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: body was dug up and moved after the first burial.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: That's right. It was dug up and moved to Polk Place,
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: which sounds like a square on Monopoly.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: Or a place where they would sell poke bowls. Okay,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: here's a pitch. Here's a pitch. Just let me know
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: what you think a James K. Polk themed poke bowl restaurant.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: See, I I have issue with poke versus polk. And
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: I know you've made your line in the sand that
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: it is poke, and I have said that to people
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: who have looked at me askance. So, folks, what do
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: you think? We're talking about raw fish in a bowl
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: with rice and deliciousness? Is it poke or poke? Right?
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: In?
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: What do y'all think?
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Noel, If your problem with this persists, then don't worry.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: I've still got us covered. I've got a backup plan.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: It's a poke bowl place that's Pokemon themed.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: That's easy. Love. You could serve it in a poke.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Bowl, right and you can collect the bulls love it
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: all right? But Polk Place, it turns out is different.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: That is the that is the property where James K.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Polk was intending to establish his legacy, who wanted to
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: be buried there. He wanted kids to grow up there.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: He wanted it to remain the seat of the Polka state.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is the true kind of ancestral home
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: of the Polk family. After Polk died, his wife Sarah,
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: continued to live at Polk Place for forty two years
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: until she died. But here's where the plot thickens and
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: things start to get really interesting. Polk actually drew up
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: his will a mirror five months before he passed away,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: and in it he used some very specific language. He was,
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: after all, a lawyer, that said that his and his
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: wife's remains should be buried at Polk Place, and that
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: after he and his wife died, the property should be
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: held in trust by the state, and that there should
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: always be a blood relative living there.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: And there were a number of heirs, and they waited,
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: they bided their time.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: But not direct heirs, not direct air. I think because
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: of a childhood malady. He had the kidney stones really bad.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: He had an operation that rendered him sterile.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: Right, he did not have any direct issue, but there
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: were a number of airs who, as I were saying,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: bided their time for decades waiting for Sarah Polk to expire,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: and then they filed lawsuits arguing that this will was
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: a you know, a burlap sack full of bologney for
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: legal purposes. The court ruled in their favor, and the
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: court said that the will violated the common law rule
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: against perpetuities, things that limit an owner's ability to leave
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: property to unborn future generations.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: I guess Polk might have been a cracker jack one
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: term president, but not that great of a lawyer.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: And who knows, you know, if he were. That's the
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: thing about wills, You're not around to defend it in person, right,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: you know. So he very well may have been able
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: to defend his position, but unfortunately with everyone who really
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: had a stake in that perspective, gone, yeah, you're right,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: he had to just depend on the language as he
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: had written it. So Polk Place was sold and torn down, right,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: and today there's a boutique hotel on the property.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Apparently, initially they were trying to turn it into
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: the governor's mansion there in Nashville, but that did not pass.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Muster and then they it was scooped up by a developer.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: I think it was an apartment for a while, and
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: then it was it's the Boutique hotel today. And that
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: initial developer, his name was Craig McClanahan. He apparently donated
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: part of the property to be turned into a Carnegie Library.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: And according to Tennessee Magazine, an article written by Bill Carey,
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: who talks a good bit about this debacle moving Polk's remains,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: he says all of this was done just to appease
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: Nashville residents who might have been irritated that this fat
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: cat developer swooped in and you know, crushed their their history.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Which unfortunately is a tale as old as American time.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: If we're ticking on the capitalist clock, developers come in
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: and change things, and it's tough to decide what should
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: be kept historic and what becomes ephemeral and what has
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: a strip mall or a mixed use development in the future.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: We're in an interesting spot where we sit here now,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Ben We're in a place called Ponce City Market. That
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: is a historic building. It used to be a city
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: hall before that in the what forties, I want to
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: say it was in Sears and Roebucks Shipping and Receiving
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: center by the train right by the train line what
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: they call the belt line now and to this day,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: it's basically kind of a bougie mall. And we have
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: our studios here, which we love. It's a neat spot,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: but it has that interesting give and take between history
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: preserving history and progress and bougie malls.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: And here's a great example, listeners, you may find this interesting.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Even before there were buildings here, this road is named
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Ponce de Leon. This building is named Ponce City Market
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: because it's on a road called Ponce de Leon, which
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: is relatively famous here in the US. It's named that
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: because people used to drive outside of the city proper
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: when it was a dirt road to find the curative
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: springs that were said to be panaceas for what all
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: ails you. And they named this street Ponce de Leon
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: as just a blatant marketing thing to have it associated
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: with a fountain of youth, famously searched for by Ponce
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: de Leon himself.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Totally. And now when you drink from the water fountains
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: at Ponce City Market, you are granted eternal life.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: True story, right right, Well, you're on the eternal life plan,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: which I believe is starts at ten dollars a.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: Month and an eternal life coach.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: That's a good one too. Seriously, though, the water does
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: come from those same springs. That's why there's that big
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: sister a reservoir, yeah, exactly, or reservoir. So back to Polk.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: On September nineteenth, eighteen ninety three, James K. Polk's body
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: was moved again. This time it was moved to the
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Capitol where our story began with the statues of Jackson
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: and Johnson, and he was buried alongside of his wife.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: And we talked a little bit earlier about how there's
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: a little bit of a kerfuffle about this potential choice
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: to move them.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: To It's a huge coach.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I'm probably downplaying a little bit. And
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: a lot of that has to do with the idea
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: that the folks in Columbia are just pushing for this
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: because it would be a tourist destination. Because we talked
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: earlier about how at the Tennessee State Capitol, Polk's grave
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: is largely dwarfed by these, you know, really ostentatious sculptures
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: of potentially more well known presidents Andrew Jackson and Andrew
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Johnson not necessarily more important, not necessarily more important at all.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: And again, the whole connection is interesting. How Jackson was
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: old Hickory and and Polk was little Hickory. I'm sorry,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: it's not little Hickory. It was young Hickory, Youngckory, young Hickory.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: And he's dwarfed in in other ways than that. Jack
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: is buried also in Tennessee at his estate called the Hermitage,
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: which is a hugely popular tourist destination. And you know,
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: why wouldn't the folks in Columbia want to get a
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: little piece of that sweet, sweet tourist action.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. According to Bill Carry, a researcher and writer
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: who focuses on this region, the reinterment of President and
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: Missus Polk is one of the most disrespectful deeds ever
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: committed by the state of Tennessee.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: The second one, the second reinterment, right, I'm asking you,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, First one Colera, you know, Colera Graveyard,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: second one family homestead. Then when they toured, that's the
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: gross one, and then the reet to the capitol.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: And so we're seeing, Yeah, that's a great distinction because
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: we are seeing collectively this this grab for money. It
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: seems as if you know, as as Noel said earlier
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: that to the opponents of the Columbia move from the
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: Capitol to Columbia, this seems as though it is little
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: more than a blatant grab for authenticity and tourism dollars. Right,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Or we're not particularly honoring the wishes of this former
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: president because the former president wanted to be interred in
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: a place that has been torn down. Right, we're not
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: necessarily honoring the wishes of the man himself the woman
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: herself because they wanted to be interred at Pole Place,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: which was torn down for development purposes. This move, this
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: idea of moving from the Capitol to Colombia, has no
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: small amount of critics, including Bill Carey, but also Carol
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Van West, who is the state historian there of Nashville.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: She said, when Polk left the White House, he came
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: home to Nashville, his wife stayed there for decades afterwards.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: There's no reason to move them, essentially.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: Except there's an argument on the other side too, right,
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: because you've got this guy Tom Price, who's the curator
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: of this place we're talking about now, the James K.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: Polk Home and Museum in Columbia, Tennessee, which was the
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: home that his father built and that he later purchased.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: And you know, mister Price argues that it's not about
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: tourism dollars, that it's about doing the best job possible
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: given conditions to honor the language, and that will because
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: he wanted to be buried at home. This is the
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: closest thing you got. So it's like the spirit of
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: the law if we cannot adhere to the letter Rightactlyah,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: What do you think I am on the fence, because
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: he does acknowledge that it's difficult to get students to
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: tour the home because Andrew Jackson's hermitage is so close.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: By, exactly. So they again, in life dwarfed also in death.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: And it's interesting because the Tennessee lawmaker, State Senator Joey Hensley,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: who sponsored this bill that we're talking about that would
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: disinter these remains and move them to this Polk House
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: in Columbia, is quoted as saying this, I honestly served
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: up here in the Tennessee State Capitol for fourteen years
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: and had never seen Polk's grave. He told this to
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: the New York Times, it's not handicap accessible. It's not
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: really talked about much when they do do the Capital tour,
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: and not many people visit it. It's just not a
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: very good place to honor his legacy. So all kidding aside,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: I can see both sides, you know.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point, because if they're not
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: including it when they're doing the tour, if it's not
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: easy to get to. Usually for anyone who's been on
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: an historical tour before, what happens is you become inundated
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: with information and so you're not Most people are not
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: very likely to go above and beyond what the tour
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: guide tells them to look at. And this brought us
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: to a very interesting question, which is what does it
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: take to disinter the corpse of a president if we
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: just decided, hey, we're not doing anything with the next
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: few years, let's pick up a new hobby. It turns
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: out it's not too easy. You have to have the
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: approval of the governor, the state House of Representatives, a
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: local judge from the area, and in the case of Tennessee,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: the volunteer state. You have to have the approval of
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: the Tennessee Historical Commission. You have to have a lot
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: of a lot of different moving pieces work together. In Unison.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: About a week after the Senate bill passed, the Tennessee
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Historical Commission had come out against the plan to exhume
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: James K. Polk and said that moving the graves would
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: create a false sense of history at the Home and
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Museum in Columbia.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Even given all of that red tape you have to
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: get through to make this happen. And I'm not sure
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: if this has always been the case in exactly the
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: way that you laid out, but there are several historical
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: precedents for exhuming presidential remains.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: And three times is not even close.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Not even close. Man. In eighteen fifty eight, James Monroe,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: who was our fifth president, was exhumed and relocated from
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: New York to his home state in Virginia. And then
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: we've got this one that is just an absolute doozy.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: How many times, Ben, do you think Abraham Lincoln's body
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: was moved?
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: I know, do you want me to pretend to yes,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know. You can just say it, okay, seventeen
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: times so far, so far. That's the thing with Abraham Lincoln.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: I feel like we have to add so far every
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: time we mentioned.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: That statistics let the man rest.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: And that is indeed, that is the presidential record for
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: the amount of posthumous moves per president. And in the
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: case of Lincoln, these all occurred within the balance of Springfield, Illinois.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: What is that even about? Yeah, and I found this.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: It's on a discussion board Lincoln Assassination Forum, from a
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: man named Roger Nordon. I can't speak to mister Norton's credentials,
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: but he does have an example or a little account
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: of every single time Lincoln's remains were moved, and one
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: of them reads as such. November seventh, eighteen seventy six,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: in an attempt to kidnap Lincoln's body and hold it
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: for ransom, Ghoules partially dismantle the sarcophagus and slide Lincoln's
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: coffin halfway out. The conspiracy is foiled, however, and the
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: kidnappers escape, leaving Lincoln's body behind.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Lincoln also in a way that reminds me of our
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: earlier episodes involving Winston Churchill. Lincoln also felt that he
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: experienced pre cognitive dreams, but he never as far as
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: we know. In the historical record. He never said, guys,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: they're gonna move my body seventeen times. But that's a
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: weird prediction for people to make at this point. Only
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: time will tell if James and Sarah Polk are going
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: to be disinterred and reinterred a fourth time. And we
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: want to hear your opinion on this. Is it a
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: matter of historical accuracy? Is it a matter of disrespect?
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Is it a matter of doing our best? Is the
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: living to adhere to the wishes of those who have
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: passed totally?
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: And in this Polk House and museum now a lot
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: of the furniture from the raised ancestral Polk home is
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: on display, you know, in sort of like a place
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: out of time, kind of a pastiche So I'm sure
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: it's a fascinating place to go. Do you need to
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: dig up the guy's bones right and move them? I mean,
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: this all depends on your view I guess of historical completionism.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: I guess I don't know, right, Like, I don't know,
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: can't they just put up a plaque? It just seems
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: like an awful big to do.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Right, And then it also goes into well we could
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: argue that it goes into the spiritual beliefs of the
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: people when they were alive, you know, because there are
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: some people who find it tremendously offensive to be moved around,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: and then there are some people who would say there
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: were some people whould say, like Lenin style, just just
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: preserve me and keep me on display.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Right, And as it turns out, we have an update
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: to this story. So the resolution that called for the
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: movement of President Polk and his wife's remains was passed
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: by the state Senate in Tennessee in March of twenty seventeen,
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: but it was put on hold until later this year,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: so the state House will not actually vote on it
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: until sometime this year, when we do not know, as
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: the gears of law tend to grind pretty slow. But
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: we'll keep an eye on this one.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: So will there be an update in the future, Will
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: there still be momentum for this legislation or will it
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: fall to the wayside. Unfortunately, as so much legislation often does,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: there's only one way to tell. Well, there are several
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: ways to tell. They all depend on time, and we
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: hope that your favorite way to tell will be tuning
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: into another episode of ridiculous history In the meantime, I'd
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: like to add this Pulk quotation toward the end of
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: our episode here because I think it's an interesting contrast.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: One of his more famous quotations was the following, I cannot,
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: whilst President of the United States, descend to enter into
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: a newspaper controversy.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, bold words from President James K. Polk.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Well, he did say while president and not currently president.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: That's fair.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: But now it seems that controversy has sprang up in
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: his way.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: He was really trying to just be super chill under
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: the radar, especially when he, you know, invaded Mexico.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: He said some other stuff I like too. He said,
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: thank God, under our constitution there was no connection between
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: church and state.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Oh that's cool.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I had no idea that would turn controversial again,
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: did you, President Polk.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: And it's funny because he has kind of a pale,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: kind of milk toast kind of look to him.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Something almost puritanical period exactly.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: So you know, I could see him wanting to be
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: uncontroversial and some of the stuff that we're talking about,
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: especially like the whole you know, Mexican American War and
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: manifest destiny and all that. You know, we like California,
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: but not the most popular political stance these days. Right,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: let's just go take you know, from beyond our Borders.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and Noel, what do you think about this
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: quotation the world has nothing to fear from military ambition
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: in our government?
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: How about that one? Either. Let us know what your
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: favorite James K. Polk quote is and hey, any historical
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: figure send us quotes. We'll read them on the air.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: We'll have a new section in the show called quote Corner.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: I'm just spitballing here. You can put corner behind anything
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: and it can be a segment. But write to us.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: We are ridiculous at HowStuffWorks dot com. You can also
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: find us on Facebook, Twitter, or we are Ridiculous History
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: and check us out on iTunes and leave us a
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: review Apple Podcast rather excuse me. We appreciate it and
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: that kind of helps discoverability of the show. Go up
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: or anywhere else you listen to podcast. Just write us
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: a note if you dig the show. We really appreciate it.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: And perhaps not most importantly, but let's put it in
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: the top five. There a James K. Polk themed poke
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: bowl place or a Pokemon themed poke bowl place.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: Let us know. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
• 33:57
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• 34:00
  Speaker 2: favorite shows.