Latest / The Parenting Podcast / Tell me more | Ep. 219

Transcript

Tell me more | Ep. 219 · The Parenting Podcast

• 0:00
  Joanne: But what it did was making me realize I didn't have a safe place anywhere.
• 0:06
  Speaker: It's amazing how quickly our minds fill in the parts of our children's stories we don't actually know.
• 0:15
  Speaker: Not because we don't care, but because we do.
• 0:20
  Speaker: We want to understand.
• 0:23
  Speaker: We want to help.
• 0:25
  Speaker: Sometimes, though, the most important part of their story doesn't begin until we've stopped talking
• 0:41
  Cheryl: Joanne, I'm so glad you're back in here with us today.
• 0:44
  Cheryl: I love having you come in and record with us.
• 0:48
  Joanne: Thank you so much for having me back.
• 0:49
  Cheryl: I want her to be a semi-regular, don't you?
• 0:51
  Cheryl: Yes,
• 0:52
  Joanne: I agree.
• 0:52
  Cheryl: So just let us know when you have time.
• 0:54
  Joanne: Absolutely.
• 0:55
  Cheryl: All right.
• 0:56
  Cheryl: So I was reading something, and I came across a concept that I had never heard of before,, related to parenting, and it's called lunch shaming.
• 1:09
  Cheryl: Have you ever heard of it?
• 1:10
  Christie: No.
• 1:11
  Joanne: No.
• 1:11
  Joanne: Never.
• 1:12
  Cheryl: It's, uh, an issue that's happened when kids are in school, so it's that age, so particularly, it would be the iPhone, a smartphone up age.
• 1:23
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 1:23
  Cheryl: So probably middle school- Middle school and high school.
• 1:25
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 1:26
  Cheryl: And so what happens is they're capturing photographs of people in the lunchroom, and if they're sitting by themselves, they take a picture of them as isolated and alone, and then it goes viral across the whole school.
• 1:42
  Christie: Mm.
• 1:43
  Joanne: That's terrible.
• 1:44
  Joanne: It's
• 1:44
  Christie: heartbreaking.
• 1:44
  Cheryl: Or you know what you look like when you're eating a sandwich- Mm-hmm.
• 1:48
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm and you have that u- you know, weird facial, and they capture a really ugly, dorky, uh, geeky- Mm-hmm.
• 1:57
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 1:57
  Cheryl: thing while you're eating-
• 1:59
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 1:59
  Cheryl: and then s- send it viral That's the thing they share.
• 2:02
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 2:02
  Cheryl: Yeah,
• 2:02
  Christie: that's awful.
• 2:03
  Christie: I can imagine.
• 2:03
  Cheryl: And, and so you go,"Okay, this has gone
• 2:05
  Carol: on before with.
• 2:06
  Carol: Kids but the problem is, is what parents started seeing is their kids weren't going to lunch.
• 2:12
  Christie: Oh.
• 2:13
  Cheryl: And so this is probably particularly middle school- Mm-hmm because they can't get out.
• 2:17
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 2:18
  Cheryl: And high schoolers can drive somewhere if they have time, but that they were not eating at all-
• 2:24
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 2:24
  Cheryl: because they would rather- not eat than be shamed.
• 2:27
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 2:27
  Christie: They just probably hide in the bathroom or something.
• 2:28
  Christie: That's so great.
• 2:29
  Christie: Yeah.
• 2:29
  Christie: Yeah.
• 2:29
  Christie: Mm.
• 2:30
  Cheryl: So I want us to talk about it a little bit.
• 2:31
  Cheryl: The issue with this and the article finished saying, uh, what's helped this is that we now have a lot of, uh, no devices school days.
• 2:40
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 2:40
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 2:41
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 2:41
  Cheryl: And they've noticed more children are eating- Mm-hmm
• 2:44
  Joanne: at school.
• 2:44
  Joanne: Oh.
• 2:44
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 2:45
  Joanne: It's interesting.
• 2:45
  Christie: Yeah.
• 2:46
  Cheryl: So I just want your thoughts on it and to bring this to awareness, but also this whole concept of shaming or bullying in a culture and for our kids.
• 2:58
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 2:59
  Christie: Yeah.
• 2:59
  Cheryl: Did it ever happen to you?
• 3:01
  Cheryl: Were you ever out, or were you always in the cool groups-
• 3:04
  Christie: Oh, I, I lived out.
• 3:06
  Cheryl: Me too.
• 3:07
  Christie: I was always in the out group.
• 3:09
  Christie: Oh.
• 3:09
  Christie: I never was in the cool kid group yeah, I- I'm just thinking back on all the memories of middle school, and I'm like, yeah, that- Ugh that, I feel like that's familiar.
• 3:20
  Christie: Oh, it is the worst.
• 3:20
  Christie: It's just a hard time of life and If you do anything even near the realm of awkward or clumsy or out of the norm.
• 3:29
  Christie: You know, I remember sometimes I would have, like, my mom would pack, like, tuna and crackers- Oh and my tuna would smell.
• 3:36
  Joanne: Oh.
• 3:37
  Joanne: Oh, no.
• 3:38
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 3:39
  Christie: Just anything that's weird, you know- Mm-hmm just throws you under the bus.
• 3:42
  Joanne: Yes.
• 3:43
  Joanne: Um-
• 3:43
  Cheryl: But it doesn't even have to be weird.
• 3:46
  Christie: Right.
• 3:46
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 3:46
  Christie: That's true.
• 3:47
  Christie: You just get targeted.
• 3:47
  Christie: Kids are just looking for something.
• 3:49
  Joanne: Right.
• 3:49
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 3:49
  Joanne: Like, when you mentioned taking pictures of Yeah a kid by themselves, that was me- Mm-hmm in sixth grade.
• 3:54
  Joanne: I, um- Oh I had come from a Catholic school to a very big public school.
• 4:00
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 4:00
  Joanne: And so I was so awkward.
• 4:02
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 4:02
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 4:02
  Joanne: I had w- you know, worn uniforms every day, didn't have to think about what was- Oh in style- Mm or name brands.
• 4:08
  Joanne: And so, um, going into sixth grade, I come in with my big, chunky plastic glasses- Mm.
• 4:16
  Joanne: and my LA Gear sweatshirt that I thought was cool, and my crimped hair- Mm-hmm because, you know, back in the early'90s, and I thought I was looking pretty good, but immediately knew I was so out of place.
• 4:29
  Joanne: Mm.
• 4:29
  Joanne: Oh.
• 4:29
  Joanne: Oh, gosh.
• 4:29
  Joanne: And so we had two different lunch periods at my middle school, and I had one friend at this school, and she had the opposite lunch.
• 4:37
  Joanne: So- Aw lunchtime was torture.
• 4:40
  Joanne: I mean, it was so bad.
• 4:41
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 4:41
  Joanne: I was by myself.
• 4:42
  Joanne: I would even just try to stand near people.
• 4:46
  Joanne: Um, and so even, like, the nerdy group, quote- quote-unquote"nerds," they would move away from me.
• 4:52
  Joanne: You know, just- Oh, no way I'm trying to stand by them just so I'm not by myself.
• 4:56
  Joanne: So when you said, you know, kids are now taking pictures of that- Yeah like, that would've been me.
• 5:01
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 5:01
  Joanne: And I just couldn't even imagine, you know, just that shame and that horrible feeling being at school, and then have it just follow me, home.
• 5:09
  Christie: I know.
• 5:10
  Christie: Mm.
• 5:10
  Christie: I think that all the time about a lot of different scenarios.
• 5:13
  Christie: I'm so glad we didn't have smartphones- Yeah in the'90s.
• 5:15
  Christie: Yes.
• 5:16
  Christie: But yeah, that, I mean, just having something concrete to keep the shame going-
• 5:22
  Cheryl: Yes
• 5:23
  Christie: is just brutal.
• 5:24
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 5:24
  Cheryl: Because when I was in...
• 5:26
  Cheryl: It was just gossip, you know?
• 5:28
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 5:28
  Cheryl: It would spread.
• 5:29
  Cheryl: And middle school's just hard.
• 5:31
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 5:31
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 5:31
  Cheryl: I mean, it used to be called junior high for me.
• 5:34
  Cheryl: But- absolutely miserable.
• 5:36
  Cheryl: And one of my reasons, like you're saying, being new, so we moved a lot.
• 5:42
  Cheryl: My dad's job, they moved him a lot, so I went to nine different public schools.
• 5:47
  Joanne: Wow.
• 5:47
  Cheryl: And you talk about junior high- Mm three different junior highs.
• 5:51
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 5:51
  Joanne: Mm.
• 5:52
  Cheryl: So
• 5:52
  Carol: i was Always new, and I'm an extroverted, friendly person, so I expect everybody else to be extroverted and friendly.
• 6:00
  Carol: Yeah.
• 6:00
  Carol: But that's as geeky as you can get.
• 6:03
  Carol: Mm.
• 6:03
  Carol: Mm.
• 6:03
  Carol: And just, like you're saying, nobody to befriend me.
• 6:09
  Carol: Nobody.
• 6:10
  Carol: And I can remember someone, and I won't...
• 6:12
  Carol: CC, I'll say her initials, and so she pretended to befriend me and all this, and it was just to make fun of me- Mm and to find out things.
• 6:24
  Carol: Oh.
• 6:24
  Carol: And then the group would, you know, play it against me.
• 6:27
  Carol: Uh-huh.
• 6:28
  Cheryl: So we're talking crimpy hair- Yeah but you found out it was cringey hair.
• 6:32
  Cheryl: It's actually cringey, yeah.
• 6:33
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 6:33
  Cheryl: So I just had kind of regular hair, and then I don't know why, my mom decided,"Oh, I know," and I went to get it done.
• 6:44
  Cheryl: Oh,
• 6:44
  Christie: no.
• 6:44
  Cheryl: And so I'm in eighth grade.
• 6:46
  Cheryl: Uh-huh.
• 6:46
  Cheryl: I am brand new to this school, and I'm tall and skinny.
• 6:51
  Cheryl: I was probably
• 6:53
  Carol: five eight In eighth grade.
• 6:55
  Christie: Wow.
• 6:56
  Cheryl: And, you know, about three inches wide.
• 6:58
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 6:59
  Cheryl: And she had them cut my hair and perm it.
• 7:03
  Christie: Oh.
• 7:04
  Christie: Oh, man.
• 7:05
  Christie: Wow.
• 7:05
  Christie: I had a home perm in fourth grade.
• 7:07
  Cheryl: Remember how they smelled?
• 7:09
  Christie: Oh, yes.
• 7:09
  Christie: Yeah.
• 7:09
  Cheryl: Oh, yeah.
• 7:10
  Cheryl: And I d- I don't know why she did it.
• 7:12
  Cheryl: Well, you cannot imagine.
• 7:14
  Cheryl: There was something that had come out, advertised on TV, called spoolies, and they were little, some kind of curler that you would do- Okay for little old ladies to get their- Oh, I
• 7:23
  Joanne: remember that, yeah.
• 7:23
  Christie: Yeah.
• 7:23
  Christie: They
• 7:23
  Cheryl: had, like, little spring down.
• 7:24
  Cheryl: To get their little curly- Yeah and they'd just,"Cheryl, tell us, where did you buy your spoolies?" It was horrible.
• 7:30
  Cheryl: Aw.
• 7:30
  Cheryl: You know, you didn't want any time that you weren't specifically in a classroom- Mm
• 7:36
  Christie: mm-hmm.
• 7:37
  Cheryl: So I identify with this struggle.
• 7:40
  Cheryl: You don't have to have,, smartphones.
• 7:42
  Christie: Right.
• 7:43
  Christie: Mm.
• 7:44
  Cheryl: It's just a really rough road.
• 7:47
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 7:48
  Christie: Yeah.
• 7:48
  Cheryl: Okay, so we all identify with it.
• 7:51
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 7:52
  Cheryl: So let's back out to parenting,'cause parents One of the things we can't do is fix this.
• 7:57
  Christie: Right.
• 7:58
  Cheryl: Now, like, it's nice because if there's schools without phones, they can't virally spread the pictures.
• 8:03
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 8:04
  Cheryl: But your, family, did they help you navigate this well?
• 8:08
  Cheryl: Did you have good conversations and they talked with you about it?
• 8:13
  Joanne: Well, I'll, I'll just share an example from middle school.
• 8:17
  Joanne: So, um, I mentioned I was really, like, an outsider my sixth grade year.
• 8:21
  Joanne: Um, and at the end of that year, The most popular girl at our school also happened to be, like, a really tough girl.
• 8:30
  Joanne: Like, she would just randomly pick kids to start a fight with.
• 8:33
  Christie: Wow.
• 8:34
  Joanne: And, um, she was just known for that, and for some reason, that made her really popular.
• 8:39
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 8:40
  Joanne: Verbal fights or physical fights?
• 8:40
  Joanne: Fist fights.
• 8:40
  Joanne: Wow.
• 8:40
  Joanne: Wow.
• 8:41
  Joanne: Like, yeah, it was a rough, rough middle school I went to.
• 8:45
  Joanne: Mm.
• 8:45
  Joanne: Um, and so she, um, had a group around her at all times, you know, just kind of followed her around, and she was, like, tough, like I'm telling you.
• 8:53
  Joanne: And, uh, one day, I was just walking by her in the hallway, her and her group, you know, that was around- Yeah her at all times.
• 9:00
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 9:00
  Joanne: And she said,"I don't like that girl." And her...
• 9:04
  Joanne: I heard her friend say,"Who, Joanne?" And she said my name, and she said,"Yeah." And that instilled so much terror in me.
• 9:13
  Joanne: Mm.
• 9:13
  Joanne: And I, I...
• 9:14
  Joanne: Now, uh, looking back, I realize she didn't even remember that.
• 9:17
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 9:17
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 9:17
  Joanne: She really didn't mean anything by that.
• 9:19
  Joanne: But because I knew her, who she was- Yeah and what she did, I lived in terror- Mm.
• 9:25
  Joanne: Mm every day thinking,"She's going to start a fight with me- Mm-hmm because that's what this girl did," right?
• 9:31
  Joanne: Um, and so I had so much anxiety.
• 9:34
  Joanne: I just couldn't even stand it.
• 9:36
  Joanne: So one night, I opened up to my mom Uh,'cause I was trying to stay home from school.
• 9:40
  Joanne: That's what happened.
• 9:41
  Joanne: I was- Oh Oh faking sick, and she was- Yeah like,"What is it?" And so then I thought,"Well, I'm just going to open up and- Yeah share this with her." And, um, I said,"Well, actually, I'm, I'm not really sick.
• 9:51
  Joanne: I'm just really afraid.
• 9:53
  Joanne: There's this girl at school, and I think she might try to beat me up or start a fight with me."
• 9:57
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 9:58
  Joanne: And my mom, she just, uh, she kinda, she looked at me, and her demeanor kinda changed, and she said,"Well, you're not gonna stay home.
• 10:07
  Joanne: You're gonna go stand up to her." Aw.
• 10:08
  Joanne: Like,"You're not staying home from that." And I realized that is how she was raised.
• 10:13
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 10:13
  Joanne: That's what her mom said, so I'd, I don't hold it against her.
• 10:17
  Joanne: She thought that was the right thing.
• 10:18
  Joanne: No,'cause she was trying to equip you- Yes with what
• 10:19
  Cheryl: she thought
• 10:19
  Joanne: was right.
• 10:19
  Joanne: Right.
• 10:20
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 10:20
  Joanne: But what it did was making me I didn't have a safe place anywhere.
• 10:24
  Joanne: Mm, yeah, I know.
• 10:24
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 10:24
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 10:25
  Joanne: So I didn't have a respite at home, and I was forced in this situation.
• 10:29
  Joanne: And thankf- It, it worked out.
• 10:30
  Joanne: I never, she never did pick a fight with me.
• 10:32
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 10:32
  Joanne: But it really, I had...
• 10:34
  Joanne: That sense of safety, you know?
• 10:36
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 10:36
  Joanne: Was really, it was hard for me to ever get back.
• 10:38
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 10:39
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 10:39
  Christie: That's awful, Joanne.
• 10:41
  Christie: Yeah.
• 10:41
  Christie: I'm so sorry.
• 10:42
  Christie: Thank
• 10:42
  Joanne: you.
• 10:43
  Joanne: I'm okay now, but thank you.
• 10:43
  Joanne: 'Cause you- Yes yeah,
• 10:44
  Christie: you worked through
• 10:45
  Joanne: it.
• 10:45
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 10:45
  Cheryl: I so identify with that.
• 10:47
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 10:47
  Cheryl: You know?
• 10:48
  Cheryl: And if I'd been someone in that hallway, I'm telling you, the self-protection- The honest truth is, I don't know if I'd come and, and, and would have stood next to you-
• 10:59
  Christie: Right
• 11:00
  Cheryl: against this group.
• 11:01
  Cheryl: Right.
• 11:01
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 11:01
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 11:01
  Cheryl: 'Cause I would have been scared saying, I don't want it on me." Mm-hmm.
• 11:04
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 11:05
  Cheryl: Just because of the immaturity, I, I think I would have been afraid, too.
• 11:10
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 11:11
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 11:12
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 11:12
  Christie: Yeah.
• 11:13
  Christie: I'm thinking back, your question of, did I feel like I could talk to anyone about it?
• 11:19
  Christie: Like, I don't remember even thinking that was an option.
• 11:23
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 11:23
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 11:23
  Christie: So that says a lot about what I would have thought the response would have been.
• 11:26
  Christie: But also, I think it was just so normal by, even by middle school.
• 11:31
  Christie: Wow.
• 11:32
  Christie: Even in elementary school, kids are- Yeah are mean to each other.
• 11:35
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 11:35
  Christie: And so I don't even know if I thought it was out of the norm enough to mention.
• 11:40
  Christie: I just assumed all the adults- Mm-hmm in my life would have known that's what school was like.
• 11:45
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 11:46
  Christie: Which I think is interesting to think about, too, because with our own kids, I know I have, when they've told me something, been like,"Oh, I'm sure they didn't mean it.""I'm sure it wasn't that bad." Right.
• 11:58
  Christie: And kind of gloss over it.
• 12:00
  Christie: Um, and, you know, then thankfully, with, you know, most of the times my kids will be like,"No, Mom, really," And then get my attention.
• 12:08
  Christie: But that's my impulse.
• 12:10
  Christie: Yeah.
• 12:10
  Christie: And I think maybe a lot of adults feel that way.
• 12:13
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 12:13
  Cheryl: That's true.
• 12:14
  Cheryl: Boy, do I identify with this.
• 12:16
  Cheryl: And so mine was handling it all by myself, uh, just trying to figure it out.
• 12:23
  Cheryl: My parents loved me.
• 12:25
  Cheryl: They, they loved the best way they knew how, but they didn't know to start these good conversations-
• 12:30
  Christie: Mm.
• 12:31
  Cheryl: Mm or to listen in and follow up on it too much.
• 12:35
  Cheryl: Uh, it just felt huge disconnect that they don't know what my world is.
• 12:40
  Christie: Mm.
• 12:41
  Cheryl: And like you're saying, I just had to figure it out all by myself.
• 12:44
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 12:44
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 12:44
  Cheryl: All alone, except for the times where it was so painful and I came home crying,'cause there were some instances of rejection where it happened outside of school and, a, a hangover from school, but it was in the neighborhood, and I came home sobbing.
• 13:02
  Cheryl: And again, my parents wanting to do the best thing, just like your mom.
• 13:06
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 13:06
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 13:07
  Cheryl: She was trying to equip you.
• 13:09
  Cheryl: Well, what they did is put their arms around me, my dad said,"It's okay, honey.
• 13:14
  Cheryl: Don't you worry about them.
• 13:16
  Cheryl: We love you.
• 13:17
  Cheryl: We don't need them."
• 13:18
  Joanne: Mm.
• 13:19
  Cheryl: So don't you worry about them.
• 13:20
  Cheryl: You know that we love you."
• 13:22
  Christie: Mm.
• 13:22
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 13:23
  Cheryl: Okay, it's true.
• 13:25
  Cheryl: I need to be safe, and I need to love you, but not to exclude those people, and they're, you know, they're other.
• 13:31
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 13:31
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 13:31
  Cheryl: Don't, don't be involved with them.
• 13:33
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 13:34
  Cheryl: That's true.
• 13:34
  Cheryl: You just
• 13:34
  Carol: ignore them.
• 13:35
  Carol: Instead of learning how to cope with it or- Yeah.
• 13:38
  Carol: Mm even coping skills.
• 13:39
  Christie: Right.
• 13:40
  Christie: Right.
• 13:40
  Christie: Well, and th- th- them that we're talking about- Yeah that's your, the people you're with more of the day than anybody else.
• 13:43
  Christie: Exactly.
• 13:43
  Christie: Yeah.
• 13:45
  Christie: More of your life you're spending with this group of people.
• 13:50
  Christie: That's a good point.
• 13:51
  Cheryl: And then you have to walk back into it again tomorrow.
• 13:54
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 13:54
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 13:55
  Cheryl: Wow.
• 13:56
  Cheryl: And so, like you, the conversations with my children- I w- I wish I had been...
• 14:04
  Cheryl: I was, I mean, I was more aware than, like, what my parents were, but I made a lot of mistakes in it, too-
• 14:11
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 14:12
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 14:12
  Joanne: Yeah
• 14:13
  Cheryl: trying to walk with them.
• 14:14
  Joanne: But just like you said, Christie, like, when you were saying that, I was so relating about, um, just trying to default to the positive and not-
• 14:21
  Cheryl: Yes
• 14:21
  Joanne: um, and I think in times I have, or when my kids have come to me, I maybe have dismissed- Mm-hmm their feelings- Mm-hmm inadvertently by trying to maybe, you know, believe the best about somebody- Right when really maybe I should have taken some time to listen.
• 14:37
  Christie: Yeah.
• 14:37
  Christie: I, I have these conversations actually with my kids now as adults where, um, you know, they'll remind me of times that I would have said,"Oh, you should make friends with so-and-so.
• 14:48
  Christie: I know their mom." Mm-hmm.
• 14:49
  Christie: "They, they're a really sweet family." And they're like,"You have no idea what their kids are like." Yeah.
• 14:54
  Christie: And, you know, I just think- Yeah there's this, like, kid/teen subculture that- that we detach from- Mm-hmm Yeah and make these assumptions of how things are, and it's just not always accurate.
• 15:05
  Cheryl: And that was my- It's true biggest mistake, too- Yeah Joanne, coming with a very positive-
• 15:09
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 15:10
  Cheryl: Well, you know, maybe they're hurting and you need to befriend them," instead of really listening-
• 15:16
  Joanne: Mm-hmm
• 15:17
  Cheryl: and not- Yeah dismissing and pulling from them so they felt safe- Right like you're talking about, safe to say,"Well, Mom, this is really what's going on," and, and to share it, even if it's all just emotion-
• 15:29
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 15:30
  Cheryl: to get it all out there instead of,"Let me fix this in a tidy box and fix it."
• 15:35
  Christie: Yeah.
• 15:36
  Christie: It, it's kind of like, you know, if you put your kid in a lion's den and you're like,"Well, maybe you could just talk to the lion- and get...
• 15:43
  Christie: Maybe he just is hungry.
• 15:44
  Christie: Could have been a mistake," you know?
• 15:46
  Christie: It, the- Yeah our kids don't h- always have the emotional maturity and strength- Right to go in and live out the after school special that we're trying to get them- Yeah to live out.
• 15:56
  Christie: You know?
• 15:56
  Christie: Yeah, that would be a beautiful ideal situation, if you could just be kind to the bully and they would repent and turn- Right away from their, their meanness.
• 16:06
  And
• 16:06
  Cheryl: then you're best friends
• 16:06
  Christie: with the bully forever.
• 16:07
  Christie: Yeah.
• 16:08
  Christie: Um, but it just doesn't always work that way.
• 16:10
  Cheryl: No.
• 16:10
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 16:11
  Cheryl: So having said all of this- What would you say?
• 16:18
  Cheryl: If a, a mom were sitting here and saying,"This is what's going on right now in my child's life, and my reactions have been kind of what mixture of what we're saying-" Mm.
• 16:28
  Cheryl: what would we bring to the table?"
• 16:30
  Joanne: Hm.
• 16:30
  Cheryl: About how to deal with this?
• 16:32
  Christie: This is the part where I
• 16:35
  Joanne: don't have answers.
• 16:35
  Joanne: Well, I, I'm just kinda taking one step back real quick, though.
• 16:38
  Joanne: It's just the awareness, like you said the mom- Mm is aware.
• 16:41
  Joanne: First of all, I think, like, we've all discussed some situations that we encountered when we were young, and thankfully we could leave it at school, but these kids today-
• 16:50
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 16:50
  Joanne: it's, it's following them home.
• 16:52
  Joanne: Mm.
• 16:52
  Joanne: And I think there's a lot of bullying that's happening that parents are not aware of- Mm-hmm because, um, you know, it can happen on social media or texting and all of that.
• 17:01
  Joanne: And so, um, one thing I did with, with my kids, and some people might disagree with me, but I thought it was a good idea at the time- Mm and I think it worked out pretty well, is I, I told my kids, you know, there's, like, not an assumption of privacy.
• 17:15
  Joanne: Like, Dad and I might be seeing what's on your phone.
• 17:18
  Joanne: We can see what's happening on your phone.
• 17:19
  Joanne: Uh-huh.
• 17:20
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 17:20
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 17:20
  Joanne: And it was for protection, and I didn't-
• 17:22
  Cheryl: Sure
• 17:22
  Joanne: do it to get involved in their friendships.
• 17:25
  Joanne: If there was some conflict or something going on, I didn't try to insert myself into that, but I wanted to make sure-
• 17:30
  Cheryl: Have your finger on the
• 17:31
  Joanne: pulse they were safe.
• 17:32
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 17:32
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 17:32
  Joanne: Yes.
• 17:32
  Joanne: I wanted to make sure that they were safe and there wasn't anything just super horrible going on, and I think that having that awareness is number one-
• 17:39
  Cheryl: That's really good
• 17:39
  Joanne: first of all.
• 17:41
  Joanne: So.
• 17:42
  Cheryl: And we talk about it, safe is the word.
• 17:46
  Cheryl: I would encourage them If I were there, I would want to, again, not be reactive, whether it's your mom protecting or my parents that's a reactive response.
• 17:58
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 17:59
  Cheryl: So the first thing I would say is, get yourself in a place where you're not reactive, but that you can be receptive, and then say,"Hey, let's talk about this." And then instead of my talking about it was what you're saying, this nice, let's think about them, and how can you,, like that after school special thinking, kind of equipping with that rather than letting them really process- Mm their real life-
• 18:26
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 18:26
  Cheryl: and talking about it.
• 18:28
  Christie: Yeah.
• 18:29
  Christie: This is the thing, though.
• 18:30
  Christie: To be really honest, I don't know.
• 18:33
  Christie: I, I, I'll just be honest with you two as my friends, like, these are the two areas of parenting that I just feel like I sit and I can have compassion- Mm-hmm but I just don't know the answers.
• 18:44
  Christie: Wow.
• 18:44
  Christie: Because we had a, we had a bullying situation with m- one of my kids, and it was the really unfortunate scenario of me being friends with a lot of the moms-
• 18:54
  Cheryl: Oh
• 18:54
  Christie: in the friend group.
• 18:55
  Christie: And, and my daughter was the one that was booted out of the friend group.
• 19:01
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 19:01
  Christie: And it just left us in a really awful spot.
• 19:04
  Christie: And then, of course, my daughter's like,"Please don't talk to the moms about it.
• 19:07
  Christie: Please don't," you know, sh- that would've- Yes brought more embarrassment.
• 19:10
  Christie: Yeah.
• 19:10
  Christie: And, and so we've had sticky situations, and then, you know, our, our kids came of age into the digital world when it was the Wild Wild West, and we didn't- Yeah know what to do yet- Yeah because we didn't know- Yeah what was coming down the pike.
• 19:23
  Christie: And I don't know.
• 19:25
  Christie: I guess all I can say is I would, um, sit with that, that mom and just say,"This is really hard," but listening, like you said, Cheryl, listening to your kids is really important, not dismissing like I had sa- confessed to doing at times.
• 19:43
  Cheryl: And see, that's what I would say.
• 19:44
  Cheryl: You're telling me you don't know what to do.
• 19:46
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 19:46
  Cheryl: Just listening to her-
• 19:47
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 19:48
  Cheryl: talking about this, when you said,"I have no idea what to do."
• 19:51
  Christie: Mm.
• 19:52
  Cheryl: You listened to your children.
• 19:53
  Christie: Yeah.
• 19:54
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 19:54
  Cheryl: And whether or not you should have confronted that friend group, I don't know.
• 19:59
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 19:59
  Cheryl: Because I've had parents come to me and say,"What do we do about this?" Yeah.
• 20:04
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 20:04
  Carol: That there's Bullying going on and, and it's gossip going on over here.
• 20:08
  Carol: Mm-hmm.
• 20:09
  Carol: Not just the children, but amongst- Right the adults.
• 20:11
  Christie: Yes.
• 20:12
  Cheryl: And I think that's case by case, and you have to figure that out.
• 20:16
  Christie: Mm.
• 20:16
  Cheryl: But what you did is you listened to your children.
• 20:20
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 20:20
  Cheryl: And they were able to tell you,
• 20:23
  Carol: not perfectly Like a afterschool parenting program-
• 20:27
  Christie: Right
• 20:28
  Cheryl: but, you sat with them, and you listened to them so that they knew if they needed to, they could come to you.
• 20:34
  Christie: Yeah.
• 20:35
  Christie: Yeah, and I will say, I think you're right that that was a win in the scenario.
• 20:39
  Christie: There were a million losses in, in that season.
• 20:42
  Christie: Yeah.
• 20:42
  Christie: But one of the wins is I did my best.
• 20:45
  Christie: Now, if it had been, like, a physical safety issue, that would've been a different- Yeah scenario.
• 20:48
  Christie: But, um, as much as I could, I respected my daughter's requests to- Yeah let her lead the way and not just say,"Oh, I'm calling- Yeah her mom, and I'm gonna fix this," but say,"Hey, how do you, how can I support you in this?
• 21:03
  Christie: Do you want me to go with you to this group gathering?
• 21:06
  Christie: Do you wanna stay home?
• 21:08
  Christie: Do you..." You know, just let her lead in that.
• 21:11
  Christie: Um, I think that was a good move- I- in our relationship.
• 21:15
  Joanne: Oh, yeah.
• 21:16
  Joanne: I think that's so good.
• 21:17
  Joanne: I think so.
• 21:17
  Joanne: I love that, uh, what you said because I feel like, just, like, in almost everything, humans, we are drawn to extremes.
• 21:24
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 21:24
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 21:24
  Joanne: And so you have on one hand where it's like,"Oh, I'm sure they weren't...
• 21:27
  Joanne: You know, I'm sure she really didn't wanna beat you up.
• 21:29
  Joanne: I'm sure..." Mm-hmm.
• 21:30
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 21:30
  Joanne: You know, trying to, like, gloss over something that's actually really pretty awful, or the opposite extreme of like,"What?" Like, you, you know, and taking up the fight for your kid.
• 21:39
  Joanne: Right.
• 21:39
  Joanne: And I think we need to be somewhere in the middle, which is what I feel like you did.
• 21:43
  Christie: Maybe.
• 21:44
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 21:44
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 21:46
  Joanne: Well, and we, we had a situation in middle school with one of my kids, and, um, the, there was conflict amongst the kids.
• 21:53
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 21:53
  Joanne: And there was a parent who decided to insert themselves- Ah into the situation- Mm-hmm and, and made the situation exponentially much more explosive and dramatic- Mm as a result.
• 22:06
  Joanne: I'm so thankful that I had you, you know, Cheryl, to talk through that, and I would recommend, you know, if there's any parents out there and they're not sure what to do, try to find someone who's a little older or wiser who, you know, a couple steps ahead of you and, and maybe ask their- Mm.
• 22:20
  Joanne: Like you said, not being reactive but trying to have a thoughtful, proactive approach.
• 22:25
  Joanne: Mm because, um, I think a lot of times as moms, you know, that mama bear- Oh, yes thing is we wanna g- it's hard to hear that- Yeah your child is being mistreated.
• 22:33
  Cheryl: Yep.
• 22:34
  Joanne: And we all feel it, but we just have to control it- Mm and not make the situation 10 times worse for our kids.
• 22:41
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 22:41
  Joanne: Um-
• 22:42
  Cheryl: You know, I just wish I'd been a whole lot more mature- years ago,'cause I'm thinking of our dearest friends in a situation, and it wasn't long-term I don't like bullies.
• 22:56
  Cheryl: A lot of it's because I was bullied so much.
• 23:00
  Cheryl: I have been so reactive.
• 23:02
  Cheryl: I mean, zero tolerance.
• 23:05
  Cheryl: I'm not gonna have any older, stronger bully
• 23:08
  Carol: take from.
• 23:10
  Carol: the weaker, That's a wonderful perspective, but I was reactive about it, and there was one situation, I was ready to walk out, give up those friends, give up...
• 23:20
  Carol: It was a family relationship-
• 23:22
  Christie: Mm
• 23:22
  Cheryl: because I couldn't stand that bully treatment- Mm.
• 23:25
  Cheryl: Mm of one of mine.
• 23:27
  Cheryl: And I'm so thankful, because our good friends said,"Stop.
• 23:32
  Cheryl: You can't do this." Mm-hmm.
• 23:34
  Cheryl: "Let's sit here and talk it out." Because I've talked before on here, I didn't do conflict resolution, you can say, very well.
• 23:42
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 23:42
  Cheryl: I didn't do conflict resolution.
• 23:44
  Cheryl: I either glossed it over or got out.
• 23:46
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 23:47
  Christie: Yeah.
• 23:47
  Cheryl: And so, yeah.
• 23:48
  Cheryl: They love me so much, and they said,"Stop.
• 23:51
  Cheryl: You are not going home.
• 23:52
  Cheryl: We're gonna sit down.
• 23:53
  Cheryl: We're gonna talk about it." So we, the, uh, parents talked about it, got me non-reactive- Mm-hmm and then we brought the kids in it, and it was actually nothing.
• 24:02
  Christie: Mm.
• 24:03
  Cheryl: But it was the reactivity.
• 24:05
  Christie: Wow.
• 24:05
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 24:05
  Cheryl: And so, um- Everybody just be more mature than I was.
• 24:10
  Cheryl: It's a challenge.
• 24:10
  Cheryl: How about
• 24:11
  Joanne: that for
• 24:12
  Cheryl: a panacea?
• 24:12
  Christie: Yeah, I think you guys both said the word proactive versus- Yeah reactive, and that, that may be the best, um, first step.
• 24:21
  Christie: Yeah.
• 24:22
  Christie: Is take a breath, uh, find out what's really happening, get to the details- Yeah whether it be that they're, it's worse than you think or not as bad as you think.
• 24:31
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 24:31
  Christie: And, um, and be a champion for your kiddo without- Right going to bat for them.
• 24:34
  Christie: Oh, and also just being humble enough to realize that maybe it's your kid who's being
• 24:44
  Joanne: the bully.
• 24:44
  Joanne: That's a big part, yeah.
• 24:46
  Joanne: You know, that we've had some situations- Yeah where w- it's like,"Oh, I think actually it was you." Yes.
• 24:50
  Joanne: "And we need to have a talk with you and learn how to go through life." I mean, we've all, you know, here I've talked about how I've been excluded.
• 24:58
  Joanne: Mm.
• 24:58
  Joanne: When I had the opportunity later, I excluded people, you know?
• 25:01
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 25:02
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 25:02
  Joanne: I feel like that's just- Mm-hmm k- we're im- immature- Sure and we're trying to figure things out.
• 25:05
  Joanne: And so w- you know, and just having that grace to, you know, it's not, doesn't mean your kid's terrible, but they may not be right in this situation.
• 25:13
  Joanne: Right.
• 25:14
  Christie: That's a good point.
• 25:15
  Cheryl: And see, I love what we're describing, not my mistake, but what we're describing when we do it right, and like our good friends, that we slow down and we don't throw other people under the bus.
• 25:27
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 25:27
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 25:28
  Cheryl: And that our children are watching So like your children have watched how you've treated other people, and how do we talk about other people who maybe rub us the wrong way or whatever?
• 25:40
  Cheryl: Are we, if you will, bullying people with our words- Mm-hmm.
• 25:43
  Christie: Yeah
• 25:43
  Cheryl: when they don't agree with us?
• 25:45
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 25:45
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 25:45
  Cheryl: And go,"Well, you know how those people are."
• 25:47
  Christie: That's so true.
• 25:49
  Christie: Our, even our attitudes at home-
• 25:51
  Cheryl: Yeah
• 25:51
  Christie: even if it never lands- Yeah in the ears of the person we're- Mm-hmm talking about, I mean, which is gossip.
• 25:58
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 25:58
  Christie: But, um, just modeling those attitudes towards another person- Right and verbalizing those opinions in a way that's not helpful or needed.
• 26:07
  Cheryl: Right.
• 26:08
  Cheryl: Right.
• 26:08
  Cheryl: That we don't treat others as others.
• 26:10
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 26:10
  Joanne: Well, and, and the things that we laugh at and the jokes we allow at our home.
• 26:14
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 26:14
  Joanne: Yes.
• 26:14
  Joanne: So, um, you guys might remember, I am a, I'm biracial.
• 26:17
  Joanne: Like, I'm half Hispanic, half Greek.
• 26:19
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 26:19
  Joanne: You know?
• 26:20
  Joanne: And so i don't look Hispanic, I'll just say that.
• 26:22
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 26:22
  Joanne: So I heard a lot of racist jokes, like a- Mm against, um, you know, Mexicans or Hispanics- Mm and that's my family- Mm on my mom's side.
• 26:32
  Joanne: And then I have had a lot of people come to me and apologize when they've realized later.
• 26:37
  Christie: Wow.
• 26:38
  Joanne: So because, you know, some of those things are, were just such a part of our culture growing up.
• 26:42
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 26:42
  Joanne: Now thankfully, I feel like the- Yeah the tides have changed- Mm-hmm and people are a lot more aware of that.
• 26:47
  Christie: Sure.
• 26:48
  Joanne: But we can be snarky or allow jokes or laugh at things that are at other people's expense.
• 26:54
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 26:55
  Joanne: Yes.
• 26:55
  Joanne: So that was something that was really important in my house, is like, we do not make fun of people.
• 27:01
  Joanne: That's good.
• 27:01
  Joanne: Period.
• 27:02
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 27:03
  Christie: That's good.
• 27:03
  Joanne: No matter what.
• 27:04
  Christie: Yeah.
• 27:04
  Cheryl: And, and one of the things I appreciate is my grown children point out to me sometimes when I'm not even thinking about it-
• 27:12
  Christie: Right.
• 27:13
  Christie: Yeah
• 27:13
  Cheryl: I'm making a casual comment, and they go,"Mom, do you realize what that actually says?"
• 27:17
  Christie: Yeah.
• 27:17
  Joanne: I
• 27:17
  Cheryl: think we all do it.
• 27:18
  Cheryl: Oh- Yeah it's true.
• 27:19
  Cheryl: Or a derogatory term, even though it's maybe a cleaned-up derogatory term.
• 27:24
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 27:25
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 27:25
  Cheryl: They're watching how we treat people.
• 27:27
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 27:28
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 27:28
  Christie: So true.
• 27:29
  Cheryl: So that's maybe Oh, by the way, here we land on children being shamed in the lunchroom, that actually it has to do with who I am as a person- Mm.
• 27:40
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 27:40
  Cheryl: how I view other people, how I love them and my humility to be willing to repent-
• 27:46
  Christie: Yeah
• 27:46
  Cheryl: and say,"Yeah, I was wrong in that."
• 27:48
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 27:49
  Cheryl: yeah.
• 27:49
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 27:50
  Cheryl: wow.
• 27:51
  Cheryl: Great conversation.
• 27:53
  Cheryl: And so we don't have a tidy bow on it, but this is what I would encourage you parents, keep those conversations going, that it's a lifelong engagement and conversation.
• 28:05
  Cheryl: Hey, thanks so much.
• 28:07
  Cheryl: Thank
• 28:07
  Joanne: you.
• 28:07
  Joanne: Thank you.
• 28:08
  Cheryl: Hey, parents, remember, hang in there, keep loving, keep persevering, because it's worth it.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Trust isn't built because we always know the right thing to say.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: It's built because our children learn they don't have to edit themselves before they come to us.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: That doesn't happen in one perfect conversation.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: It happens over years of small moments when they discover they can tell us the confusing parts, the embarrassing parts, even the parts that don't make sense yet.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Long after we've forgotten the details, they'll remember what it felt like to be heard.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: You can reach us anytime at contact@theparentingpodcast.com.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Until we're together again, take care.