Latest / This Jungian Life Podcast / THE VITAL SPARK: Reclaim Your Outlaw Energies and Find Your Feminine Fire.

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THE VITAL SPARK: Reclaim Your Outlaw Energies and Find Your Feminine Fire. · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
• 0:27
  Speaker 4: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst in Cape Cod.
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: Over a thousand people chose to be here with us
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: today and to welcome Lisa and talk about her extraordinary,
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: extraordinary book, The Vital Spark. So thank you all for
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: being here.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks. Thanks for coming. We're excited to talk about
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: the book. And I am so appreciative to both of
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: you guys for being here and helping me launch this
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: book into the world. When you write a book, anyway,
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: what I want is I want for it to find
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: a good home in the world. And that does take
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: some tending, like being a good mom and just making
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: sure that the kid leaves the nest well. So I'm
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: glad we're here together to do that today.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: Lisa, leaning into that metaphor, which I think is so beautiful,
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: when you imagine this message going out into the hearts
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: of women, how do you imagine it would affect them?
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: How would it live in the home of their hearts?
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: You know, what a great question. I really like that
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: question because the thing is, I think one of the
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: reasons why I like writing is because books have had
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: such an enormous impact on me. I mean, books have
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: changed my life again and again and again for the better. So,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, many, I guess, longtime listeners may know the
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: story of how I came to find Jung through the
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: writings of Linda Leonard, a Jungian analyst. And, you know,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: that was such an important moment for me to find
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: her book and read it. And it gave me language
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: for my experience and it opened up this whole new world.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: And so I would love it if I could do
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: that for someone else. And, you know, some of the
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: people who read my first book, Motherhood, said, well, I
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: didn't really know much about Jung before I read this book,
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: but now I have a whole new way of understanding
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: my experience. And that's what I hope happens with this
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: book is that I give someone some language to understand
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: themselves in a new way.
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: And I think you give so much language in so
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: many ways. I love the book and I love the
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: motherhood book because you put out the links to ancient
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: wisdom and fairy tale. You give some down to earth clinical,
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: if I can use that word, but interpersonal experiences. You
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: share some of your own experiences and, So it comes
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: alive in a dimensional way. It's not just theoretical. And
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: it's very conversational and human and real. And it says
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: so many important things for women. So I, too, hope
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: it finds a really good home in the world, many
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: homes in the world.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: But I love what you had mentioned, Lisa, is that
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: one of the ways that books inhabit our heart is
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: through the stories and images that.
• 3:40
  Speaker 5: They leave behind.
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: And that's particularly central to a Jungian understanding of the
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: psyche and how we understand that transition of archetypal forces
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: and information that the fairy tales that you tell in
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: the book stir something in the hearts of the listeners,
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: which is why they've been around for hundreds, maybe thousands
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: of years. And then linking that The contemporary stories that
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: you do in your book creates this bridge between these two.
• 4:12
  Speaker 5: Places, the voice of the times and the voice of
• 4:15
  Speaker 5: the deep.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Oh, how nice, Joseph. Yeah.
• 4:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I think both of us, you and I, Lisa,
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: found a commonality in how much and how important the
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: voice of the deep through fairy tales can affect us.
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: We discovered, I don't know, 40 or 50 years ago
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  Speaker 4: when we were in training, that we had a fairy
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: tale that really impacted us.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 4: Beauty and the Beast. And it's astonishing, I think, sometimes
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  Speaker 4: for people that might not have grown up with, you know,
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: grooms fairy tales to realize fairy tales in film is
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: and in all kinds of other places because they're eternal
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  Speaker 4: and that they do live in us. That voice of
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: the deep is right there all around us.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: And relevant.
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: Right. It's not some esoteric Jungian concept. It's a real deal.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and of course, it also shows up in dreams.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: And I do use a lot of dreams in the book.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: And so that is a segue to tell you that
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: we will be putting links in the chat where you
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: can submit your dream today. And we will be selecting
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: one of those dreams to talk about at the end
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: of the podcast. So if you brought a dream with you,
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: or if you have one, check out the links in
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: the chat. We'll probably be putting it in a couple
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: of times just as a reminder. And also, we're going
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: to be taking your questions. So there is a Q
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: & A function there at the bottom. We'll stop periodically
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: and take your questions. And we look forward to engaging
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: with you guys.
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: So if I can just jump in, Lisa, let's talk
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: about the concept that there even is a vital spark
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: in human beings. There is a center that warms and
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: energizes and mobilizes the human psyche, which isn't which is
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: an idea that in some ways is unique to Jung,
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: you know, in terms of being a psychological principle.
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: That's a, that's an interesting place to start.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I, I, I kind of linked it to
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: this wonderful thing that, that Jung once said that Murray
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: Stein talks about where he talks about, I'm trying to
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: keep my eye on the central fire. And I, I
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: think of that central fire, the, the, you know, the source,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: you know, the, the, The self, I suppose. And that
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: when we have a relationship with that, it is animating.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: It's enlivening. It gives our lives depth and dimensionality and
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: a sense of telos or forward movement. But we know
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: that many people come into our consulting rooms feeling like
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: they don't have that.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: That the ego has a certain amount of energy in
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: its gas tank. I think of the ego as being
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: kind of like, well, maybe like an electric car, which
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: really can only go about 200 miles an hour, 200
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: miles before it has to get plugged in.
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  Speaker 5: It has a very limited distance.
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: It can go, just donking its way forward. But some
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: of the rather sustained, magnificent efforts that we as human
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: beings have evidenced, both in terms of our civilization, but
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: even in our personal lives, has required that something additionally
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: support us. And when we are supported by that central fire,
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: we call it the self, other traditions, name it other things,
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: that there is a markedly different experience, both in terms
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: of the amount of energy we have and the sustainable
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: amount of energy that we have versus ego just, I
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: don't know, setting a bunch.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: Of Joseph, I mean, I know that's very true in
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: your experience because I know how you work, but I'm
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: remembering the story that you told on the podcast one
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: time about going through social work school and how you
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: just knew it was time and the self just really
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: carried you even though it was really difficult. Yeah, and
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: it carried each of us, I think, through training, too.
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  Speaker 2: You know, just that sense that, I mean, almost not,
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: I think, at least in my case. I was like,
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: I'm going to throw in the towel. It was so
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: difficult at some point. But, you know, there was enough
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  Speaker 2: vital life force to get us over the finish line.
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: I like how we're talking about the vital spark. You know,
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: that it's not some sort of transcendent. flaming arrow that
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: comes down from above and lights up our hearts. And
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: how come that hasn't happened to me? But sometimes it's
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: in the struggle. And Joseph, you knew it was time,
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: but you worked so hard of having a job and
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: going to social work school and all the rest of it.
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: And Lisa, of course, like all of us, we The
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: training is a struggle, and it's enlivening, and it's challenging,
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: and it's a whole adventure, just like fairy tales are.
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  Speaker 4: You can meet some talking animals, and that's really great.
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: And you have to swim a fiery lake or two
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: and climb a glass mountain. But it's something that we know,
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  Speaker 4: something that we feel, and it is there in everyone.
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: But it's not some sort of magical blowing light that
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: descends in an orb above us.
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: And it would be great if the orb descended and
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: it actually worked. The problem is that we have these fantasies.
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: You know, like the unicorn is clumped into the living room,
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: but then we still can't get out of bed the
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: next day.
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  Speaker 5: So it's like a false unicorn, you know, shows up.
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  Speaker 4: Not the unicorn, but the orb. Anytime, I'm here.
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  Speaker 3: As long as it gets the job done, it can
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  Speaker 3: look like anything that it wants to look like, is
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: my feeling.
• 10:36
  Speaker 5: Let me tell the story for two seconds.
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  Speaker 2: About the social work school, because I don't know.
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  Speaker 3: If everybody knows it, but when I was a senior
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: in my undergraduate year, class. I took a final class
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: on the theories of personalities, which is where I was
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: exposed to Jung in a very direct way. And it
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: was a groundbreaking experience. I had a certainty that I
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: would be an analyst, but that was some far, far
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: distant future that I couldn't quite predict. So I was
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: a body worker for about 20 years. I was an
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: Alexander Technique teacher, did rehabilitative work with injured classical musicians.
• 11:13
  Speaker 5: And then, you.
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: Rang out again. So I had to go through a
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: massive redesign. For those of you that have looked into it,
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: that you need to have some form of a licensable
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: degree in mental health before you can go into analytic training.
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: And so I enrolled for a master's in social work,
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: worked 40 hours a week, helped raise two stepkids.
• 11:38
  Speaker 5: And I had to show up, this was before COVID,
• 11:42
  Speaker 5: so you actually had to go to school, basically.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: Horrors.
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: And when I tallied out everything, it was just clear
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: that I would have to not sleep every Sunday night
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: in order to just get the work done and get
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: through it. And something inside of me just said, sure.
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: So I just didn't sleep Sunday nights for about two years.
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  Speaker 5: Lots of coffee. I mean, it wasn't.
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: The mystical orb looked like a great coffee pot floating,
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: pouring itself down my throat.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: Not recommended.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, but not something I could have done purely from
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: an ego standpoint.
• 12:22
  Speaker 5: It's just a wild idea. I'd give it a shot.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: In order to sustain that, something had to help me out,
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: which is where I think we're talking about vital spark,
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: which sometimes shows up in a way where we're uncannily
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: able to slog through something that we, like when I
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: think about that now, I don't know how that happened,
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: but it does. And everyone here probably has an example
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: of the extraordinary stamina that any of us had to
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: get to some place that turned out to be really,
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: really important for us.
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: So I wonder in a way, if we're talking about meanings,
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: of that this matters to me. Something is calling, something
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  Speaker 4: I want, something that beckons, something that fuels us toward
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: a goal. And, you know, having a child, now what
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: else is that but a vital spark?
• 13:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yes.
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: This is my calling, and it's going to be hard.
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: One thing we know for sure is that there will
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: be a lot of laundry.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: Paranormal amount of laundry.
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: And it's hard. Kids get sick and there are all
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: kinds of trials and tribulations. But it has meaning and
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: it's vital. So the vital spark is in us. It's
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: all over the place. I would like to return to
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: the idea of of the worthy opponent.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Okay. I was going to pick up on desire since
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: we were talking about desire. So maybe I'll read just
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: a little bit from the beginning of the desire chapter. Um,
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: when Francis gum was just two years old, she attended
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: a singing performance of the blue sisters, three girls between
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: the ages of five and 12. When the youngest of
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: the trio stepped forward and began a solo, Her older
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: sister recalls that Frances was transfixed. When it was all over,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: she turned to Daddy and, I'll never forget it, said,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Can I do that, Daddy? Little Frances was born with
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: a desire to sing. She made her own solo debut
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: not long after this event and eventually became known to
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: the world as Judy Garland, one of the most beloved
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: singers of the 20th century. In the most primal sense,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: desire connects us with life Evolution has gifted us with
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: appetites that ensure our continued survival. We enjoy food, sex, activity,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: and becoming attached to one another. Fulfilling these urges is
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: deeply pleasurable and satisfying. We would do them for their
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: own sake, but by engaging in these activities, we also
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: fulfill the biological imperative that sustains us and our species. Similarly,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: we may feel compelled by deep, urgent longings that come
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: from within and And yes, listeners, I did get that
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: from my friend Joseph. Thank you. This beautiful statement asserts
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: that our deep wishes are seeded in us by the transpersonal.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: Something larger than us knows our secret purpose and desire
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: pulls us toward it. Desire is one of the great
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: engines that drive psychological growth and development. It is one
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: of the clearest expressions of our vital spark. It is
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: a force that moves us out over the threshold of
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: complacency and into life. It calls us forth to our destiny.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: And yet we may have been discouraged from honoring or
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: even knowing our desires. We are told they are selfish, grandiose, foolish,
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: or unbecoming. As women, we are particularly susceptible to becoming
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: cut off from knowing what we want. Perhaps we don't
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: even know that we don't know what we want. Many
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: women develop a pattern of ignoring their own needs and wishes,
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: both large and small. Because women often orient to caregiving,
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: our wants and requirements can easily become overlooked. Ignoring our
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: desires can leave us feeling depleted and resentful. When we
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: neglect our desires, we do not have access to the
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: life-giving energy of the central fire. Learning to listen for
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: the insistent prodding of our heart's desire later in life
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: is vital to those seeking those glowing coals beneath gray ash.
• 17:10
  Speaker 6: Oh, my.
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: What I'm thinking about, I'm building on your reference of
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: Jung and the central fire. And what he said was,
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: I'm setting up mirrors. around the central fire. And one
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: of those mirrors is desire.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: One of the ideas that I love about desire versus
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: appetite is that desire is something that we discover inside
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: of ourselves that may or may not be present in
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: the environment. It's through introspection that we discover this yearning
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: and a longing. So for me, desire comes from the
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: inside out and it guides us appetite often comes from
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: the outside in. For instance, I've had a great big
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: meal and I drive down the road and I smell
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: this steakhouse as I'm passing it. And there's a part
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: of my appetite that's like.
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: Hmm, that would taste really good.
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I feel like I'm going
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: to split my side. But my appetite can be excited
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: about a stimulus. But the desire to become an analyst,
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: the desire to become a mom, Desire to write a book.
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: That's something that's not like we saw it in the environment.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: We thought, well, that's yummy.
• 18:27
  Speaker 5: I'll be a mom.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: But something really deep activates inside of us, which goes
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: to what you were saying, Lisa, that something archetypal, something,
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: maybe it's transcendental, maybe it's in our DNA. Something far
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: stronger than just the whims of the environment activates us.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Well, and Hellman talks about this in The Soul's Code.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: You know, that book is essentially all about that desire
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: that you come into the world with that you need
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: to live out. And, you know, it's interesting because I
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: do think some people just feel it more strongly than others.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Some people don't feel that propelled by desire, which I
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: think is, you know, just sort of normal. But sometimes
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: people come in to therapy and say, or they come
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: into analysis sort of saying, you know, I feel like
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: there's something I need to do and I have no
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: idea what it is.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: So they feel that divine discontent, but they haven't found
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: an image yet.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: But that divine discontent, the not knowing, is the vital spark.
• 19:38
  Speaker 5: Yeah. The feeling of the longing.
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: Come and find me. Right. I'm here.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: I am.
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: I'm proud in you.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Well, I love that divine discontent phrase, Joseph. That's a
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: great phrase. But but then, you know, the problem with
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: going to look for it is that you can turn
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: it into an ego task. And then that's that's very difficult. Yes.
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: I really liked, Joseph, your distinction between appetite and desire.
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: And what you just said, Lisa, that ego goes looking
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: for it of like, maybe I should change careers. Maybe
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: I should go back to school. Maybe I should join
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: some sort of a civic group. Maybe, I mean, the
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: list is endless. That that is the going outward. That's
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: the externalization. And the vital spark is in you.
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: Which brings up this very complicated question.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: Dynamic between introversion and extroversion because extroverts will feel a longing,
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: but if they don't extrovert it, then they don't have
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: a relationship to it. So Amazon is driven by extroverted
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: feeling types who are like, there's something I want. And
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: it's like, oh, there it is. That approximates something I
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: want to Cha-ching, you know, I'm an extroverted feeling type.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: So it's unbelievable how many Amazon bucks happened my way.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: So sometimes we do, as extroverts, we do search for
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: images that might correlate with the secret, invisible, internal piece.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: And then introverts often wouldn't go that way, that they
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: would turn within and watch their images and watch their
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: fantasies and how they're talking to themselves. And It feels
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: very natural, very normal. The difficulty is to assess whether
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: you're an introvert or extrovert. Does the image adequately embody
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: the secret fire inside of me? Is that really, is
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: that fit? Can I put the fire in that idea?
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: And so we do try. So for you, Lisa, when
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: you really were like, The idea of being an author,
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: these books I want to write, my fire fits in that.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: And it likes living in that. So all of a sudden,
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: not just you, but the idea of being an author
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: also has heat.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Well, it seems like we're also talking about the ego-self axis.
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: And I think that, you know, so one of the questions,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: if someone comes in and says, you know, I feel
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: like there's something I'm supposed to do and I don't
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: know what it is, I'll often say, well, what did
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: you want to be when you were a kid? Because
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: sometimes that's, you know, it isn't a rational process. It
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: isn't like, well, you know, here's something and I can
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: go through the checklist and see, does this fit? It's
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: just more like that. It's like that, that Judy Garland story.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: And there's so many other stories like that, you know, just,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: you know, you just know, even maybe at a very
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: young age, not, not, I mean, I think there are
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: people who find their, who find their connection with that
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: thing later in life. That's, I mean, that's true of
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: some people that I'm close to. So it's not like, oh,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: if it didn't hit you by the time you were five,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: you're done. But I think it is interesting to say, well,
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: what was the image when you were in kindergarten? What
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: was the image that you had?
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: Just a way of saying that, you know, how did
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: the vital spark garb itself in each iteration? But also,
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: I think we're talking about Ian McGilchrist's work of The
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: Master and the Emissary.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Usually I'm the one that brings that in.
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: I know, I know. I was tickling your mind there.
• 23:31
  Speaker 5: That ego thinks, it's like, oh, I think I've got
• 23:34
  Speaker 5: a great idea. I'm going to go out and do
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: this thing.
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: But really the unconscious has sent the impulse to go,
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: do and be.
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: Boom.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: And the ego is tasked with figuring out how to
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: manifest it.
• 23:48
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: And that's the dance between ego and self, that the
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: self needs the ego to incarnate, the image in whatever
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: way that it can, given the resources that are available.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: That's great. I really like that, Joseph. Yeah. Because I think,
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: you know, so we, we get this idea, we have
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: this desire and some people in, in treatment have trouble
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: with that part of it because they can't even fantasize,
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: you know, so just like castle in the sky, what
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: do you want your life to look like in 10 years?
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: And some people have a lot of trouble doing that.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: But then if you can do it, then I always say, okay,
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: now it's time for the compromise with reality. And that,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: which is Freud's term, and that's where the ego takes over.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: It's like, okay, well, you know, I want to be,
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: you know, if my castle in the sky is I
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: want to be an Olympic figure skater, compromise with reality
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: is going to say, don't think that that's going to happen.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: But there are environments where you could feel like an
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: Olympic skater. Like, there are skating rinks, there are teachers.
• 24:52
  Speaker 6: That's right.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: You could have 50 of your friends come and give
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: a special performance for them.
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: Right. Feel like a million bucks.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: You know, I want to take this idea down to
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: a slightly different place, which is, you know, when I
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: was a kid, I didn't have any ideas at all
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: in the world ever about, quote, what do you want
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: to be when you grow up? Because I was in
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: the era that what you want to be when you
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: grow up is amazing. Married to somebody.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay. That's really interesting.
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: So I take it to what did you like? Ah.
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: What did you really, really like?
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: That's great. I like that.
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: I liked reading. I liked going to the library. My
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: sister liked being outdoors. She and a friend built a raft.
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: And they went down this river. They caught crayfish. They
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: did all kinds of. you know, outdoor kind of stuff.
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: What did you like? Your favorite stuff to do. And
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: then I think this idea about where the vital spark
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: is can range anywhere from Judy Garland or Frances Gump.
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: She's age two and bing, the fire is lit, and
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: that's what she wants to do, to way later after
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: having followed a good traditional lifestyle consistent, conventional, other-oriented path,
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: which is what a lot of women do, that you
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: walk into an analyst's office at age 40-something, like I did,
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: and say, whatever it is I'm doing, it isn't right,
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: and I don't know what is right, but I'm looking.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great, Deb. That's a really great distinction, because
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: I think that that's true for a lot of people.
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: And it speaks to Jung's observation, which is right where
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: you are, Deb, that the first half of life sometimes
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: is paying coin to the culture. And part of that's
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: very pragmatic. We do need career. We need some finances.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: We need some security. We need the fundamental needs, just
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: as you were listing them, Lisa, of I have to
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: meet my hunger needs, my sexuality needs, my need for
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: creativity and We have to have a basically, you know,
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: reasonably well crafted sandbox. So then in some ways we
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: have the luxury of considering actualization. And that also goes
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: to Maslow's things. Like if we're fighting for physical safety
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: and food, we need all our energy there. I mean,
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: that's the important thing. So the first half of life
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: is let's get a good platform. And maybe it's not
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: the most exciting thing, but we do what we need
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: to do. And then as Deb, you were saying at
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: some point, let's say 40, it's like, you know, all
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: this stuff's lined up, all the ducks are lined up.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: And I am starting to think about myself and my
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: soul and like, what am I doing?
• 28:08
  Speaker 5: So there's timing.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: It takes many different forms.
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: It takes many different forms. And of the group that
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: my cohort and many a woman that I've spoken to,
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: has said, you know, well, if I get to college,
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: then that'll do it. If I meet somebody special, then
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: that'll do it. I know I'll have a baby, and
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: that'll do it. And so we're still looking for the
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: vital spark and trying things out in the world, as
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: we should, to see, you know, what will light it,
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: what will call us.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: And for feeling types, things that we like is really
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: actually connected to something deeper. It's not a casual acknowledgement
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: that I like this and I really don't like that
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: or I really despise the other thing. But I would
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: chime in for those of you that are thinking types.
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: You might have a different criteria, but you do have
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: a criteria that there are some things you think are
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: good for you to get involved with and some things
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: you think you don't want to get involved with. So
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: you may notice that it's an inner dialogue that kind
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: of sources it out. Sometimes it's a liking criteria depending
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: on your, I guess, typology.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: So a couple of things. Maybe if you've joined us recently,
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: you can submit your dream for this podcast This is
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: a special thing we're going to. pick from the dreams
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: that were submitted today. So there's a link in the chat,
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: you can submit your dream and I'll be going over
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: later to pick a dream. And also for those of
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: you that purchase the vital spark today, there is a bonus.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: I'm I have a guided meditation based on one of
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: the fairy tales in the book. So if you would
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: like the free guided meditation, there's a there's a link
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: for that in the chat as well. And let's see
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: what else.
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: Oh, yes.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: And questions. You can put questions in the Q & A.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: So let's maybe take a couple questions now. That's all right.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Someone's asking about my glasses. Should I reveal the secret? Yes.
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: I think you really should.
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: It's tender, but tell the truth.
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: So this is a flippant question, but how many pairs
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: of glasses does Lisa have? They are all very cool
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: and in awe of the way they match outfits. So
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: this is my secret.
• 30:38
  Speaker 5: Ta-da!
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: So I do have a bunch of these little frames
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: that they just.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: How many? How many?
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know. Maybe 15 or something. No, no.
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: Maybe 15.
• 30:50
  Speaker 5: Very mercurial.
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Well, it's fun. I mean, it's, you know, it's sort
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: of the aesthetic sensibility of like a seven-year-old, but, you know. Okay.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: And then, hi. Hi, Helena. Hi, Helena. And Helena says,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: this book feels so timely and needed, but that makes
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: me wonder, why do we still need books like this?
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: Why do we still struggle with pervasive patriarchy dynamics in
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: our individual and collective unconscious? Why do women still internalize
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: these dynamics of stifling themselves? Why is feminine fire still
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: so dangerous and therefore kept sequestered to the attic, which
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: is really great. One of the things that I talk
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: about in the chapter on anger is the erenyes or
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: the furies in Greek mythology. It's like up. Women's anger
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: just gets banished to the underworld even 2,000 years ago,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: and it's still there for a lot of us. So,
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know what I think about this question,
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: which I think is a fabulous question, by the way,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: but I don't know if either of you have something
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: you want to take a shot at.
• 31:48
  Speaker 5: I want you to bring forward what you've been thinking
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: on this, Lise.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: So, well, I mean, and, you know, I'd love to
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: bat it around and hear your thoughts, but I think
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: that some of our tendency to put our own needs
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: aside Of course, there's a big cultural piece. But I
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: think some of it's just innate. And I realize that
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: that may be a difficult opinion to take on board.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: But there's lots of research that shows that, for example,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: that women are more agreeable than men. And it's cross-cultural.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: It's across the lifespan. I don't know that it's just socialization.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: Of course, there is a cultural component to it. But
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: I don't think that's the only thing. And there's also
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: studies about neonates, the difference between male and female neonates,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: and the difference between male and female primates. So again,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: it's so difficult to totally take out the socialization piece.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: But it also makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint that
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: women would, that the females of the species would be
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: more oriented toward caregiving because in most primates the the
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: mother does more of the caregiving probably probably mammals because
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: you know that there's a thing that we're called mammals
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: because of mammary glands you know so so it's sort
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: of like we're we're kind of wired to tend to
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: others and that means that our claiming these qualities claiming
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: our authority claiming our agency it it is It is
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: both an interaction with the culture, which is very real,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: and I talk a lot about it in the book,
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: but it also is kind of an inside job. Like
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: we've got to get over our own inner injunction against
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: being forceful or fiery. So I don't know. I'd love
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: to hear if you guys have any thoughts about that.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: Well, I can say just in my own analytic practice,
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: of course, just as we were saying earlier, Something's going
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: on in us and we don't know what it looks like.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: Maybe it's causing us suffering. And then we cast about
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: looking for images or ideas to house or explain our discomfort.
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: The difficulty when we claim that I am not actualized
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: because of the enormous political and belief system that has
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: been around for thousands of years. The subtext is, well,
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: I guess you're going to have to wait a thousand years.
• 34:27
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: Until it all changes because if that's what caused it
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: and it didn't disappear, wow, okay. So it can be
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: used as a defense against going inside and laboring in
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: a way that could be very scary.
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: Which I have a couple of tracks, which is, Lisa,
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: you can pick up the worthy opponent of the laboring within.
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: But I think it is... the always and forever very
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: difficult task of individuating. And Joseph, I was thinking for you,
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: you have had many male clients. They too face challenges.
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: Now we're talking about the vital spark and women's journeys,
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: but that doesn't mean that there aren't journeys for men
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: as well.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: And cultural challenges. Difficulties and constraints are human.
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: And our attitude as unions, it's not the only attitude,
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: is that if we take the idea of the patriarchy,
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: that patriarchy is a term to describe a system of
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: beliefs and actions and legislation, etc. But relative to how
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: it affects the vital spark is how is that alive
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: inside of you symbolically? Because, for instance, there are all
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: kinds of other social systems, political systems that are happening
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: in other parts of the world that are quite different.
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: Is that affecting you? Do you know about it? But
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: the things that affect our inner life are the things
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: that have been internalized. And that's the place where we
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: are sovereign. We may not be able to change everything
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: happening in our community, our state, our country. You have
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: enormous power to examine, challenge, and restructure beliefs, assumptions, images
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: that have been brought in and stand against the vital
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: spark and leave you internally oppressed, internally frightened. And I
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: hear this, and we all do as therapists, not just analysts.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: I've really always wanted to do thus and such. And
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: then there's a gauntlet of images and feelings that seem
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: to have their arrows pointed at the person if they
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: would dare to do that.
• 37:04
  Speaker 5: And that's inside of us. That's the inner war.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: So is that where the worthy opponent is?
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah.
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: Yes, I know you wanted to swing to this, Deb.
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: That's right.
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: I know. I'm using every opportunity.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Well, this is the right time for it to come in.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Let me just read a couple of paragraphs that I
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: think are just as if you just put it so well.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: Women today benefit from the remarkable gains of the women's
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: movement over the past century or so. There have been
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: substantial advances in women's quest for equality, and as a result,
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: we have an enormous degree of choice and freedom regarding
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: all areas of our lives. But throughout my years as
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: a psychotherapist, I have seen again and again that each
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: woman must wage an inner struggle for liberation. Whether we
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: are accomplished professionals, stay-at-home moms, women navigating a midlife transition,
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: or young women just getting started in life, We will
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: have to contend with internal forces that hold us back,
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: cut us off from our instincts, and cause us to
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: question ourselves. So, and Joseph, I think I'm really sort
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: of picking up on your point. And I like what
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: you said about, you know, if we say, well, it's
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: all out there, it's the patriarchy, like maybe come back
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: in a thousand years. I mean, honestly, that's disempowering. That's
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: a disempowering message.
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Because unless we're going to go change the whole culture,
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: and we have changed the culture, you know, and it's
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: worth continuing to try to change more aspects of the culture,
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: but we probably can't change everything. So, and maybe some
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: of it's even, you know, kind of innate. God, you know,
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: that's kind of a foreboding thing to say, but I
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: think it might be true. So what do we do
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: with that then? I mean, I think you have to
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: ask yourself, you know, where am I in this? And
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: what can I do? And that's where, you know, these
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: eight qualities come in, in the book that now I
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: came up with this list of eight qualities based kind
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: of on my experience and the experience with my, my analysands.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: It is not a, you know, an exhaustive or, or
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: a decisive list by any means. But here are the
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: qualities that I came up with. Disagreeableness, shrewdness, trickster, desire,
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: which we've already talked about, sexuality, rage, authority, and ruthlessness.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: That these are the qualities that are difficult for many
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: women to get their hands around. And maybe not all
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: of them, maybe like You know, most of them are
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: fine for you, but there's three that are really hard.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: But these are the qualities that allow you to advocate
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: for yourself, change what you can in your life. Not
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: that we should abandon the fight for equality in society,
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: but also where can you take power? Where can you
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: find agency in your life? That's the central question. that
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: I explore in the book, actually, is, you know, on
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: a personal, individual level, can you find your agency?
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: If we think about that list, that in 500 years,
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: that list could change.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: Because part of the list is what has been put
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: into the shadow, and therefore, we have little access, that
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: it just kind of grabs us from the unconscious, and
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: then we're doing it very unskilled, Yeah. So based on
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: your observations of working with women and current research, it
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: looks like this gold is in the shadow.
• 40:58
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: And if it were acknowledged, if there were images, metaphors,
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: ways of beginning to get a sense of how do
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: I put a little copper wire into that, get a
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: little of that juice over here, that I might be
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: able to run that car an extra 400 miles.
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: Oh, really? And kind of get to my destination.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 41:20
  Speaker 5: Exactly.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: It's a great metaphor.
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: I think I also want to just add, you know,
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: a sense of power, agency, authority as an inner stance of,
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: you know, like you talked about, Lisa, the compromise with reality.
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: I really don't have the agency to become an astronaut.
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: I don't think.
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: I believe in you.
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: Well, okay.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: Millions in space.
• 41:55
  Speaker 5: That's right. The first million to go out into orbit.
• 41:58
  Speaker 5: I'm all for it.
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: But what we also can do is to have a
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: sense of I know that I know what I know.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: I may not be able to change anything. somebody's mind
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: about something. I may not be able to get permission
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: for something. I may not be able to get that
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: promotion that I well deserve, but I know that I
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: know what I know. I know that I deserve it.
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: I know that this is a political maneuver, let's say,
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: just to give an example. I know that this isn't
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: quite right. I know I don't like it. And that's
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: my stance. Now I have authority. Mm-hmm. Because I'm centered
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: in here, not out there of what can I do?
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: Do I have to change jobs? Should I speak to
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: my boss? Should I go to HR? All about coming
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: back inside.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: So the word authority and the word author come from
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: a similar basis. And so just as you were saying, Deb,
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: when you can take control of the truth of the story,
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: I'm going to author reality. that also is the source
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: of authority.
• 43:19
  Speaker 5: I know the story.
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: I know what's going on. And then it creates a
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: congruity in the personality where we're not warring with some fantasy.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: Right. And this issue of knowing what you know, which
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: I really like how you put that, you know, to
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: me where that is in the book is in this
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: category of shrewdness, because I think not knowing what we know,
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: is often we do that when we're trapped in an
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: innocence complex. So maybe we can talk about a fairy
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: tale with that. But there's so many good questions. Let's
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: do a few more questions.
• 43:56
  Speaker 5: I do want to come back to this idea of
• 43:57
  Speaker 5: malignant innocence. It's so good.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: Okay, we'll definitely get there. How does one elegantly and
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: gracefully stay true to the impulses of the central fire?
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: Who said anything about graceful?
• 44:11
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking of Jung's quote about the hammer and the anvil.
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: What I would offer is graceful is one tone.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: And what I would suggest is what is skillful? Because
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: skill implies that you will be successful. And sometimes correctly
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: applied grace might be the skill that's required. Sometimes being
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: very confrontive and disagreeable is a way to skillfully navigate
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: what it is that the heart desires. But becoming facile, skilled,
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: competent at what is required seems like a path forward.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Here's a question that I appreciate because it gives me
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: a chance to plug my book. She says, I'm sorry,
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: I'm a little late. What book are you reading from?
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: Oh, it's a new.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: Book, The Vital Spark. And it was released on Tuesday
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: and it's available as an audio book. And I narrated
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: it this time. I was so thrilled to be able
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: to have that opportunity. So it's available as an e-book,
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: a paper book and an audio book. And in fact,
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: if you buy it today, there's links in the chat
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: and you can also get a free guided meditation that's
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: based on one of the fairy tales in the book
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: so i do hope if you don't have it already
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: that you will buy it and if you do have
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: it and you like it i hope that you will
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: leave a review on amazon or goodreads because those really
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: help um poor struggling authors like me um so yeah
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: so let's go back to um malignant innocence you want
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: to respond that joseph.
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: And the medicine, that shrewdness is a medicine that is desperate.
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: So one idea about malignant innocence is that at some
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: point in our childhood, that our innocent child gets sequestered
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: away because the environment is dangerous or unskilled, sometimes in
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: very surprising ways. And so later in life, there is
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: a little innocent one inside of us that is full
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: of curiosity full of life force, but it hasn't had
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: the benefit of maturing. So it starts to give us
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: advice from its very, very young perspective. And when we
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: look 25, but our inner advisor is three, that can
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: put us in pretty compromising positions.
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: And the original innocence becomes malignant. It's not working for us.
• 47:01
  Speaker 5: It's dangerous.
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: But Lisa, you gave a great example in the book
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: about innocence with the story of Dorothy and the Wizard
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: of Oz.
• 47:10
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. All right. Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: in this chapter. So let me read the beginning of it,
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: if that's okay, and then I'll also find the Wizard
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: of Oz stuff. We're back to Judy Garland. Let me see.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: So this is the beginning of Chapter 3, Shrewdness, Getting
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: Over Innocence.
• 47:27
  Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: When I was 11, my mother let me save up
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: to buy a sterling silver puzzle ring that I had
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: been coveting. I loved it. When I had a chance
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: a few weeks later to take it off and show
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: how to dissemble and reassemble it for a group of
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: older girls I looked up to and admired, I was thrilled.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: I felt lucky to have been included in the invitation
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: to spend the afternoon at Melissa's house. Though she was
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: just one year older, she seemed much worldlier than I was.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: She had blonde hair and her parents were divorced. She
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: lived with her mother in a small house that was
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: pleasantly cluttered with interesting things. A glass jar of sourdough
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: starter sat on the kitchen windowsill and bead curtains hung
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: between the rooms because yes, we are talking about the 70s.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: Her mother had taught her how to back up the
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: car and turn it around in the driveway. I was
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: in awe of this adult skill. When I had finished
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: the demonstration of my wonderful new ring, Melissa asked me
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: if she could borrow it for a while. I readily
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: handled it over to her, happy to have excited her interest.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: She disappeared to another room but rejoined us shortly. As
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: we got ready to leave sometime later, I asked Melissa
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: to return my ring. She denied that I had given
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: it to her, suggesting that I must have misplaced it.
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: I knew that this wasn't right. But Melissa's friends all
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: backed her, of course, and I felt powerless to contradict
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: her assertion. I never got that ring back. When I
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: handed my ring over to Melissa, I was too naive
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: and trusting. I wasn't able to access my gut instincts
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: about what might really be going on. Shrewdness is the
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: ability to see things as they are, not as we
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: wish they were or think they should be. The dictionary
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: tells us that shrewd means having or showing sharp powers
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: of judgment, astute. The term was taken from the small rodent,
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: the shrew, which has a long pointed snout and tiny eyes.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: It originally meant evil in nature or character. To this day,
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: the word shrew has two meanings. It refers to the
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: small mammal, but it also means a bad-tempered or aggressively
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: assertive woman, as in, of course, the taming of the shrew.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: This one word then reveals a deep cultural truth. Women
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: with sharp powers of judgment are considered bad-tempered or aggressively assertive.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: To avoid being a shrew, a woman mustn't be too shrewd.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: Don't see what there is to know. Remain innocent and naive.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: Yet when we can't access our shrewdness, we risk being
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: unable to protect ourselves. You know, I'm thinking, Deb, of
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: the part about protecting ourselves from envy is where I
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: bring in the Wizard of Oz. Envy is something that
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: a lot of women struggle with, like both feeling envious
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: of other women, but then also of being kind of
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: on the receiving end of an envy attack, which can
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: be really serious sometimes. Like envy actually really motivates people
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: to do terrible things. And so I am just looking
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: for the part here about the Wizard of Oz. Don't
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: know if, oh, here we go.
• 50:53
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: So if you think about it, you know, Dorothy is
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: this powerful person. She's killed the witch. But she says, no,
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: I'm not, you know, Glinda says, are you a good
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: witch or a bad witch? And she says, oh, I'm
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: not a witch at all. She doesn't know her own power.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: I'll just read from this. Dorothy doesn't know her own power.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: She is too accustomed to seeing herself as innocent and good.
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: Who me?
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: She asked in response to Glinda's question.
• 51:21
  Speaker 5: Why?
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: I'm not a witch at all. I'm Dorothy Gale from Kansas.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: When the Wicked Witch of the West confronts her about
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: having killed her sister, Dorothy replies that it was an accident.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: Yet Dorothy becomes the rightful owner of the powerful ruby
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: slippers because she dispatched the Wicked Witch of the East.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: As Dorothy travels to see the wizard, the Wicked Witch
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: of the West hounds her, hoping to get the ruby slippers.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: When the witch imprisons her and threatens to kill Toto,
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: Dorothy immediately offers to her the slippers. That's a good
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: little girl! The witch responds as she reaches for Dorothy's feet.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you have to try to do
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: the voice.
• 51:58
  Speaker 5: Oh, totally.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: But the slippers cannot come off the girl's feet while
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: alive and the witch gets zapped when she touches them.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: Dorothy's aggression and power manifests through the action of the
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: shoes while she consciously denies this part of herself. Oh,
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Dorothy says, I didn't do it. Can I
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: still have my dog? Dorothy apologizes to the witch, denies
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: her own power again, and behaves naively, expecting the witch
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: to play fair and keep her word. And then it
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: goes on from there, but I think you can see
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: how it's like when we don't let ourselves know our
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: own power, we are more susceptible to others' envy. So
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: I go on from there and I give a case
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: and stuff like that, but I don't want to belabor it,
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: but yeah.
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: For me, it goes to, you know, knowing that you
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: know what you know. If If we really could make
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: this real world and you land in some magical place
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: and you have sparkling red ruby slippers on your feet,
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: wouldn't you wonder about, ha, wonder what this means, wonder
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: what they do, wonder what just happened here. Something different
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: is really in the air. Now, of course, Dorothy, like
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: all of us, we all have to go down the
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: yellow brick road.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: To come to know that we know what we know of, ha,
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: this is what's going on here. Yeah. The Wicked Witch
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: is the Wicked Witch. Yep. She's not going to play fair.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: She's not going to play fair.
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: So that goes to the idea of mediating the archetype.
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: For Dorothy, she might have all these potentials, and she
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: did have all these potentials in her for being canny
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: and tricky and fierce. But she had to find circumstances
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: to incarnate that so that then she could experiment with it.
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: See what the environment gives her as feedback so then
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: she can own it and also refine it for that matter. Yeah.
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: The thing about the slippers, I just want to put in,
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: because when you were telling that story, I was thinking, oh,
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: this is very similar to the Harry Potter story. In
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: as much as in the Harry Potter story, this piece
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: of evil exists. is put into Harry Potter that he
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: has to finally come to grips with. And then at
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: the end, he becomes dangerously powerful after that. Similarly, Dorothy,
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: for all her innocence, has given her the shoes of
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: the most evil of witches. And now that is part
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: of her. She doesn't know what it can do. No
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: one really tells her anything until the end that she
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: can click them and magically transport herself one place or another.
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: But she is walking in the feet of the Wicked
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: Witch of the West, which is an interesting thing.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: Let's see. Someone says, not a question, but I really
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: resonate with Deb's take on getting to the vital spark, desire.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: What did you like? What did you do? I also
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: didn't have any idea what I wanted to do and
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: wasn't encouraged to think about that. And she said, thanks, Deb.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: This hits home really strong.
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: I also see a question, Lisa, that can you expand
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: on the sentence, when we don't know our power, we
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: are more susceptible to others' envy. And I was thinking
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: a similar thing, if you could open that up a
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: bit more.
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 55:25
  Speaker 5: It seems very important and a bit mysterious.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: Okay. Well, then you talk for a minute because I'm
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: going to try to find that part of the conversation.
• 55:33
  Speaker 5: So Deb, what do you think of the relationship.
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: Between envy and innocence complex?
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: Knowing that I know what I know about Joseph tossing
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: the ball to me, it's hard to get through an
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: innocence complex. We all have it. We all have it.
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: We want things to be just. We want things to
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: be fair. And I'm thinking back to Lisa, your story
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: about the ring, which I once had.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: Did you have a puzzle ring?
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: I had a puzzle ring. And for the love of me,
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: I could not put the damn thing back together.
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: Deb, why does that not surprise me? Seemed like a.
• 56:18
  Speaker 5: Good idea to take it apart.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: I had it.
• 56:21
  Speaker 4: I had it. I took it off. I kept it
• 56:23
  Speaker 4: in its shape. And then I thought, I can do this.
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: I could not do it. And not only that, I
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: projected it onto the ring. It was the ring's fault.
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: It wasn't worth it. If it was too hard for
• 56:40
  Speaker 4: me to do, it must be a worthless object. It's
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: very funny in retrospect. But I think shrewdness and I
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: think ruthlessness... are are hugely difficult because we don't want
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: to see that our boss is really a bit of
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: a stinker that our best friend can be really mean
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: sometimes yeah and worse yet i can be weak selfish
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: greedy manipulative oh the.
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: List is very long So the fairy tale that I
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: talk about in this chapter, the shrewdness chapter, is Snow
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: White because Snow White is so annoyingly, irritatingly passive and naive.
• 57:30
  Speaker 4: Oh, she drove me crazy.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: I know. And the dwarves are like, don't open the door.
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: It's your mother. And she's like, oh, someone's knocking at
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: the door and they're selling pretty wares. But she keeps
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: opening the door. So I looked at that. But I
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: found the part about envy. So if it's okay, I'll
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: read that. Please.
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: Please.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: If we are unconscious of our gifts, we cannot protect
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: ourselves from poisonous envy. Envy is a powerful destructive force.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: If you think back to when someone was envious of you,
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: you may be able to recall the palpable sense of
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: malice in the field between you. Envy is no joke.
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: It is a powerful emotion that can provoke ugly, spoiling
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: reactions in those struck by it. It can motivate criticism
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: and attacks both outright and covert. It is the subtle
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: word in the staff meeting that means we are passed
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: over for the promotion or the lie that spreads discrediting
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: or condemning mistruths about us. When we have a gift
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: that we do not recognize or claim, like Dorothy's shoes,
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: we are more susceptible to attacks of envy from others.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: The ruby slippers are a potent image of a sparkling
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: talent or trait that belongs to us, but that we
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: have not yet learned to claim or wield. Other people
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: can see this about us, but if we cannot see
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: it ourselves, if we go through life being overly modest
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: and sweet, underestimating ourselves and our abilities, then we will
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: be readily become a target for others. Cultivating shrewdness can
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: help us protect us against this vulnerability because we allow
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: ourselves to acknowledge our gifts that might provoke envy. Yes.
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: She arrived for her initial appointment and I met her
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: in the waiting room. When I saw her, I was
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: taken aback. She was statuesque with an elegant posture and figure.
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: She had a classic beauty and a gorgeous smile. Her
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: hair was perfectly coiffed and she sported a neat manicure.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: Her clothes were fashionable without being showy. My first reaction
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: was to feel intimidated and acutely self-conscious of my comparatively
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: unkept appearance. Allison's mother had been a cold, controlling woman
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: who rarely showed her children any warmth and was harshly
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: critical of every aspect of Allison's appearance. When our needs
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: do not get met as children, we internalize this as
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: shame and self-hatred, and Allison suffered from both. She couldn't
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: stand to see herself in any reflective surface. An accidental
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: passing glimpse in the rearview mirror could plunge her into despair.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: Appointments at the hairdresser were fraught as she feared she
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: would hate the result and be dropped into a vortex
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: of shame and self-disgust. In addition to being beautiful, Allison
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: was bright, funny, and warm. She had a sparkling personality
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: that made her instantly likable. Yet she often found herself
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: the target of mean-spirited aggression from other women. She had
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: a group of friends with whom she used to get
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: together for dinner monthly, but she became aware that they
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: were gossiping behind her back and she was gradually ostracized.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: She was deeply hurt by this and could not understand
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: why it had happened. Throughout our work together, something similar
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: happened several times and each incident was entirely mysterious for Allison.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: We discussed how she managed to find her harshly critical
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: and rejecting mother out in the world and to recreate
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: aspects of her childhood experience unconsciously. I suspected that envy
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: was part of the mix. Alison's mother was a woman
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: who set great store by her appearance. Though Alison couldn't
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: imagine that her mother felt envious of her, it was
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: not hard for me to suppose that this overbearing, critical
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: woman may have, like Snow White's mother, had a hard
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: time watching her daughter grow into her beauty while she aged.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: Did her mother feel envious of Alison's beauty and youth?
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: I thought of my reaction to Alison the first time
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: I saw her. Did Alison possibly provoke envy in other women,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: underscored by the feelings of inadequacy and intimidation I had
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: experienced upon meeting her? Because Alison was unaware of her beauty,
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: she couldn't fathom that anyone might envy her appearance. So
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: Alison went through life a little bit the way Dorothy
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: went through Oz, bearing a bright and shiny gift for
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: all the world to see, while she could not acknowledge it.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: And if you can't fully acknowledge that thing about you
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: that is special and draws admiration from others, then like Dorothy,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: you're always going to be at the mercy of those
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: who would like to take that thing from you or
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: who would enjoy seeing you fail or have something bad
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: happen to you. Developing shrewdness strengthens our ability to protect
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: ourselves from envious attacks because we become aware of our
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: gifts and can anticipate others' reactions to them, rather than
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: remaining stuck in self-deprecatory innocence and naivete.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: So what I'm imagining, just if we are caught in
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: an innocence complex, it prevents us from being aware of
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: other people's shadow.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 5: And our own shadow.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: That if we're innocent babes walking down the road, then
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: Everybody else must be a loving mother or a loving
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: father because the archetypes come in pairs. When the divine
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: child is present, the great mother is somewhere in the
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: personal unconscious or out in the room. So every divine
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: child is expecting a kind of loving divine parent. It
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: also invokes something called primary narcissism, I think, where the
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: divine child rightly so just wants to show it's gold.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 5: Look, I can do this. I can do that.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: This is wonderful. And the expectation is because the child
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: finds it wonderful, that the parents will also find it
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: just as wonderful. Now, the truth is sometimes that doesn't
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: happen in reality, but the archetype certainly talks to us
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: and suggests that, well, of course they will. So then consequently,
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: we're shocked or surprised or unprepared for the fact that
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: around us don't receive our gifts, or when we show
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: our gold, don't necessarily celebrate it or delight in it
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: as much as we are. And the showing of the
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: gold is, from the innocence standpoint, is meant to delight.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 5: Look!
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: Lo!
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 5: This is so great!
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 4: You've just really led into a question by a listener
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 4: named Adam, about trauma, relational trauma, and that, you know,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 4: the gold was not delighted in. You know, and the
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 4: gold for a three-year-old can be learning to do a somersault.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: Whoa, really? You can?
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you want to see me do it again? Well,
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 4: maybe one more time. And then I think I'm out.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 4: But to have that mirroring and to have that enjoyment
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 4: is incredibly important and it ties into the innocence complex of,
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 4: I must be what other people say I am. And
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 4: for women, many, a fairy tale involves overcoming the innocence complex.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 4: The ones that I can just rattle off at the
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 4: top of my head, Hansel and Gretel. Yeah. They come
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 4: across a candy cottage in the middle of the forest
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 4: and they go, Hey, whoa, good. Let's help ourselves. Wouldn't
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 4: you kind of step back for a sec like Dorothy
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: with the shoes and go, wait a minute.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: This might be a little too good to be true.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: And then there's old Rapunzel up there in the tower
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 4: and she sits quietly every day, doesn't go anywhere, doesn't
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 4: think to herself, I'm getting bored. I want out of
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 4: the tower. You know, or the great tale of feminine development,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: Psyche and Eros or Psyche and Cupid, where it's just
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 4: what you were saying, Lisa, she doesn't recognize that her
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: beauty sparks envy by a goddess. Right. The goddess is
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 4: envious of her.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: So if we know shadow, if we know that we're
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: capable of being envious and And by extension, well, of course,
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 3: even my best friend could be envious. I experience envy
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 3: or my friend could be spoiling occasionally because I understand
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 3: that I have been spoiling or could be spoiling. And
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: then when we have that impulse to share our gold,
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: part of us is like, is this the right time?
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 3: Is this person in the right mood?
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 3: What's at the forefront of her personality? Am I going
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: to get the supportive side.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 5: Of this person?
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: Or is she exhausted and she's going to really just
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: give me a nip on the hand? And welcome to reality.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: Welcome to complicated human relationships.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: Which little ones shouldn't have to know about. When we're older,
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: we're expected to be able to ask this question of,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: how is the environment likely to respond?
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 5: And is that okay with me?
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. And to discern, I mean, again, this is all
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 4: our internal work of, you know, am I showing my
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 4: gold that I can do these things and I want
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: to go for it? You know, or am I just
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 4: being boastful? But oftentimes our gold is perceived as being
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 4: boastful and being self-aggrandizing and it's really not done. And
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 4: so we hide our gold.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And then this is, I'm still back in some
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 4: part of me with an extension toward Adam. Then we
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 4: don't enjoy ourselves if we weren't enjoyed by others. We
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: learn to tamp ourselves down. And then there's no gold.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: And that goes to the beginning of your book, Lisa,
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 3: about finding the vital spark. Because if our good stuff
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 3: was mistreated and we had to hide it, hide the
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 3: treasure away, even from ourselves, maybe. There's a listlessness and
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: the sense of, I don't know, people keep, my boyfriend
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 3: and my girlfriend keep asking me what I want to
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 3: do tonight. And I'm like, I don't know. I can't,
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: knowing what I want.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 5: What is that?
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 3: And so then there's the discovery. It's not an innocence complex,
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: but it's like, there's a missing part of me and
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: it's become a problem. And that's where your book starts
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: in a lot of ways.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: There is, Adam, a real link, I think, between this
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: the subject about innocence and trauma and actually in the
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: shrewdness chapter, I talk a little bit about trauma. And
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: it's partly because one of the things that happens with
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: childhood trauma is that we sort of have a choice
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: about whether or not to identify with the aggressor. And
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: if we don't do that, then we often kind of
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: take shelter in a kind of innocence. And it's a
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: little more complex than that, but I'm not going to
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: be able to do a good job of explaining it here.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: But I did just want to mention that. Let me
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: just do another loop of announcements because I do see
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: a So we're going to keep talking. We're going to answer.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: There's so many questions. We'll probably stick with the questions
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: for a while longer. This is being recorded. It will
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: be released as a podcast, probably not this Thursday, but
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: the following Thursday. So if you missed part of it,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: you can listen again. We are talking about my book,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: The Vital Spark. Reclaim Your Outlaw Energies and Find Your
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: Feminine Fire. It is available as an ebook. It's available
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: as a print book. It's available as an audio book
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: read by yours truly. There are links in the chat
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: to purchase it. And if you purchase it, you can
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: also receive a free guided meditation that's based on one
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: of the fairy tales in the story. And we also
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: are looking for dreams. So we are going to pick
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: a dream from those of you who are here today.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: There is a link in the chat where you can
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: submit your dream. We'll be moving to the dream probably
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: somewhat soon. So go ahead and get those dreams in.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: So what do you think? Should we, um, should we
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: answer more questions? I want to loop. Okay. You loop.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 4: I may have got my, I think it's a general
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 4: question that, um, Adam has sparked about, you know, what
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 4: do we do about this? And I think something like
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 4: our conversation today, certainly your book, Lisa, can get it
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 4: to start it up here. We can think about it.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 4: There are words for it. There are fairy tales. There
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 4: are case examples. We see it in our friends. Good heavens,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 4: you can even see a lot of it at the
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 4: grocery store. So it can start up here, like something's fishy.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 4: And let it percolate down. Of course, you can read more.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 4: Of course, there are things like therapy. So there are options.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 4: Once you have the cognition in your head that this
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 4: doesn't add up, that's a great place to start.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: Well, and I think that, you know, one of Jung's
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: really important insights was how key it is to personify
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: contents from the inner world. And of course, you know,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: that's the practice of active imagination, but that's also what
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: happens in our dreams, is that inner contents get personified.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: And then the thing that's so helpful about that, which
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: goes to what you were saying, Deb, is then we
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: can relate to it. If you have an image for something,
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: if you have a story for something, if you have
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: words for something, you can think about it. You can
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: walk around it. You can put it away and come
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: back to it later. When it's not formulated yet and
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: when it's just kind of rattling around and you can
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: just sort of feel like, I know something's wrong, but
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know what it is. You don't have that
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: space between you and it. Once it's personified or even languaged,
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: You can stand over here and you can be like, oh,
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: there's that thing there. I wonder about that. And maybe
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: it's connected to this. And so it really changes things
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: to have things formulated, which is, I think, a lot
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: of what we actually do in therapy is help people
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: formulate things.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 4: Then you can start to have it instead of it
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 4: having you. And that's where we go. I don't know
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 4: what this thing is. Something's bothering me. It has you.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 4: It That's great. That's a place to start. And then
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 4: creating that distance with words, dreams, images, understanding a hundred things.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 4: Then we can start to separate enough. So, oh, now
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 4: I can see it. It's over there.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: I just want to answer a question. We are not
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: going to be interacting with a dreamer on the podcast.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: So if you submit your dream, no one has to
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: know who you are. You won't be asked to talk.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: So someone asked that and I hadn't clarified that. So
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: don't let that fear of that stop you from submitting
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: the dream.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: Something makes us brave if our name is not attached
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 3: to something, which sometimes helps us and sometimes it's a problem,
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 3: but I can understand the freedom of that.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 4: But almost anything can be an opening. Almost anything can
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 4: be a place to begin.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 3: We've spoken about this frequently on the podcast that in
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 3: chapter nine, you introduced the medicine of ruthlessness and owning
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: one's aggression. So I'd love to hear more about that
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: and to contextualize it.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: So, you know, I've presented on this topic a few
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: times for Jungian groups and one group, usually there's someone
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: who says, well, I like what you're saying, but I
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: would never want to try to become, you know, a trickster,
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: because then that would be manipulative, or someone will say, well,
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: I can agree with everything you're saying, except for ruthlessness.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: I don't think anyone should ever cultivate ruthlessness. But really,
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: what I mean by ruthlessness, first of all, is the
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: ability to do something that's going to make someone else uncomfortable,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: that is in the interest of wholeness and growth, let's say,
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: of your wholeness and growth. So the little example that
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: I give in the chapter is when I was in
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: my 20s, I was seeing a therapist and it wasn't
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: a good fit. And I was like, oh, I should
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: really stop this. You know, it's a lot of time,
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: energy and money. And it's not it's just not working
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: for me. But I didn't want to quit because I
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: didn't want to hurt her feelings. I didn't like I
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: just was dreading doing it. And then I had a
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: dream that I was driving around with Tony Soprano. Yeah.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: the thing about Tony Soprano is that, you know, he
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: could do, I guess that must've been a little bit later. I, I,
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: I suppose I was in my thirties because timing, but anyway, um,
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: you know, Tony Soprano, man, he would do the, the
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: hard things, right? He, he could be ruthless. He, you know,
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: if he needed to kill his friend, he would kill
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: his friend. And so, uh, so I'm, I'm talking about
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: ruthlessness as a kind of psychological capacity that, And I'm
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: not taught any of these qualities. I'm not saying you
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: should go through the world as a ruthless person. What
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: I'm saying is you should develop this as a capacity
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: that you can use when you need to. Yeah. One
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: of the things, and Joseph, I would love to bring
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: this up with you because I know that you love
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: the film too, but the fairy tale that I use,
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: or I use a couple different fairy tales, but one
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: of the ones that I use is my all-time favorite
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 2: fairy tale, Vasilisa the Beautiful, because- Baba Yaga is pretty ruthless.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, she eats you if she doesn't like you.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 5: She means business.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: And Vasilisa is very sweet and has had a very
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: good mother. Doesn't know how to, you know, doesn't know
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: her own aggression. And she has to go kind of
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: become an apprentice to Baba Yaga. So she very sweet,
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: beautiful Vasilisa the beautiful. She goes into the dark forest.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: She needs to ask Baba Yaga for some fire because
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: the fires, her evil stepmother and stepsisters have sent her
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: out under the pretext of asking for fire. But really,
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: they want her to be killed. She goes out into
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: the forest. She goes to Baba Yaga's hut. She says,
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: you know, I need some fire. And Baba Yaga says, well,
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: come on in and you have to work for it.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: So Vasilisa has to do all of these tasks and
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: she does them really well. And then Baba Yaga says,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: all right, get out of my house. And here's the fire.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: Don't forget to give this to your stepmother. So Vasilisa,
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: the fire is a skull whose eyes burn. So Vasilisa
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: is holding the skull aloft in the night to light
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: the way home. She gets home and the dawn breaks
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: and she's like, oh, I bet they figured out. They
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: got light a long time ago. Let me just throw
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: this skull in the bushes. And the skull says, don't
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: throw me away. Baba Yaga told you to give me
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: to your stepmother. So Vasilisa goes in with a skull
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: and the skull, the eyes start burning and they burn
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: the stepmother and the stepsisters to death. So Vasilisa found her.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: She found her aggression. She had to go and become
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: an apprentice. to Baba Yaga in order to find her ruthlessness.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: And then the film that I contrast that with, which
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: is so fun, is The Devil Wears Prada. Because Anne
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: Hathaway is the ingenue, she's Vasilisa, and she apprentices herself
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: to Baba Yaga, otherwise known as Meryl Streep in the
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: role of, um, Miranda Priestley. And Anne Hathaway has to learn,
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: or her character's name is Andy. Andy has to learn
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: how to, you know, grow a set basically, you know,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: and then she, she earns, uh, the witch's, uh, reward. So, um,
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: so it's, it's really fun. That's such a, fun movie. Mm-hmm.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 3: One of the things that Miranda Priestley teaches her protege,
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: and perhaps Baba Yaga teaches Vasilisa, is that it matters.
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 3: And I really want that to sink in. Because part
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 3: of what Anne Hathaway brings when she starts her internship
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 3: is that nothing really matters.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 3: You know, Miranda Priesty is like, how are you dressed
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 3: like that? You're an intern, like a fashion, you know, agency.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 3: How did you think that didn't matter?
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 5: So part of it is waking up her and saying.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 3: This matters, this matters, this matters, and this matters, and
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 3: this matters, and this matters, and wake up to what
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: matters if you want to have a place, at least
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 3: in her world. Yeah. And so for Vasilisa, whatever the
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 3: stepmother and the stepsister represent or what they're doing to
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 3: her or how they're affecting her, it actually matters. And
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 3: pretending something doesn't matter keeps you in an innocence complex
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 3: or keeps you from being effective.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And being nice.
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: Being nice.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 4: Snow White was nice. There was a dear old lady
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 4: at the door. Oh, what I think I want to
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 4: parse out a little bit is, you know, all of
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 4: the sort of gradations of ruthlessness. I mean, you had
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 4: a dream with Tony Soprano and he was ruthless if
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 4: he had to kill his best friend. And he did.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: No spoilers. No spoilers. Maybe not everyone has seen it.
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 4: Well, guess what he did.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 3: If you weren't looking at all of us with a
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 3: particular lean.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 5: When you're saying that.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 4: Just you, Joseph.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 5: Killing best friends.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 4: But is it ruthlessness like Miranda Priestly where this is business?
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 4: You know, as you said, you know, kind of grow
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 4: a set, grow up, get real. You're working for a
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 4: fashion magazine.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 4: You can't come in looking, you know, really sort of
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 4: half put together.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 4: It's the fashion magazine. It's not the Village Voice.
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 5: And McDowell's like, why would you care what color blue
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 5: it is? Blue is blue.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 5: It's like, hello.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 4: That is a different thing. That's a reality check. You know,
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 4: wake up, get with the program. And the same thing
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 4: is true of Baba Yaga, that you have to be
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 4: savvy with Baba Yaga. Do the chores. Don't be an idiot.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 4: Don't be a klutz. Get on it.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 5: That'd be excellent.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 4: Versus Tony Soprano, who is unfeeling.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, let's just have this out, okay?
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: I don't think Tony is unfeeling, all right? I know
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: there's been much discussion about whether or not Tony is
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 2: a sociopath, and I think he's not. I mean, maybe
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: someday we should just have this out, but I don't
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: think he's... I mean, when he has to kill, is
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: it pussy that he kills? He's, like, wrecked. He's not
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: happy about it, and he's haunted by it. But wait
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: a second. And the other thing is that in Miranda Priestly, actually,
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: there's this moment in The Devil Wears Prada. There's this
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 2: decisive moment where Andy has to stab her co-worker in
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: the back and she does it. Now, she does it,
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 6: Figuratively, whereas Tony Soprano would do it literally. But I mean,
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 6: Tony Soprano, it was business. You know, he just had
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 6: to do what he had to do. Anyway, I'm a
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 6: Tony fan.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 4: I have had to do it a couple of times.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: I hate it when that happens.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 4: Oh, I do, too. And I feel terrible about it,
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 4: which is obviously absolves me from all those dead bodies
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 4: in the middle of the lake. Oh.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: Well, you're so lucky that you live near the water, though, Deb.
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 5: You're transforming before my eyes.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 4: Isn't it? Everybody's getting scared. So I think what we
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 4: may actually have landed on is this question of ruthlessness
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 4: is complicated. And does, oh, I feel really bad about it.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 4: Does that really absolve you? Is that part of it?
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 4: Do you hold the ambivalence? These are not cut and
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 4: dry questions. kinds of issues and questions in the psyche.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: What I would say for the purposes of my book,
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: what I was interested in is how do you, can
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: you access these qualities when they're in the interest of growth?
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: So are you being, are you, are you not, you know,
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking of the moment in the movie where, you know,
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: the character Emily has been looking forward to going to
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: Paris and Meryl Streep says, Dan Hathaway, I want you
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: to go to Paris. And And Andy's like, oh, no, no, no,
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: I couldn't do that to Emily. And Meryl Streep is like, oh, well,
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: if you don't, I will consider that you don't want
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 2: a future here or something like that. So she does it.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: And if she didn't do it, would that be a
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: kind of false niceness? Can she be effectively selfish? I
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: want to read this great quote in here by Edinger,
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: which I think sort of it's a really central... That's
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: a really central quote. It's by Edinger.
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 4: Who's Edinger?
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: Oh, Edward Edinger. Thank you, Deb. I'm like, Deb, it's Edinger,
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 4: Anyway, yes.
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: He was a Jungian analyst and a very prominent and
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: important one. So he says, in my experience, the basis
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: of almost all psychological problems is an unsatisfactory relation to
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: one's urge to individuality, And the healing process often involves
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: an acceptance of what is commonly called selfish or power seeking.
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 2: The majority of patients in psychotherapy need to learn how
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: to be more effectively selfish and more effective in the
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: use of their own personal power. They need to accept
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: responsibility for the fact of being centers of power and effectiveness.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: So I'm thinking of Andy needing to stab her coworker, Emily,
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: in the back. And that's ruthlessness in service to growth.
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: So that's the thing. It's not that you're doing it
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: just because you enjoy hurting someone. That's sociopathy.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: And that's like Janice's boyfriend. I can't remember his name. Oh,
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: my God. Like season two or three of The Sopranos,
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 2: like really scary sociopathic. But Tony doesn't enjoy doing it.
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: He just does it because he has to.
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 3: Well, I think I'm just going to summarize this. Any
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 3: of the forces, personality forces that are put in shadow
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 3: and then are needed and called forth, they all have
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 3: to be subject to.
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 5: Intent and context.
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: And consciousness.
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 3: Well, of course, and consciousness, because in order to do it,
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 3: you have to be conscious of them. So when is
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 3: it okay to be ruthless? And if I think of
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 3: ruthless as an.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 5: Absence of empathy.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 3: You know, this is the task that has to be done. Now,
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 3: you know, if I was going in for brain surgery,
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 3: I want the surgeon to not be worried.
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 5: Oh, but you know, it could hurt. Like, I want
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 5: them to know what they're doing.
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 5: Get it done.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 3: Not be terribly emotional. And it takes a lot of
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 3: aggression to go in there and get that tumor out.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 3: It's like, we're not going to protect the tumor because
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 3: it might feel bad. You know, it's out. Yep. So
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 3: there's a sense of this is the task. Sentimentality is interfering.
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 3: There's no room for sentimentality. There just are the facts
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 3: and orienting to the facts relative.
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 5: To the mission.
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 3: And when the mission is important enough, then sentimentality often
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 3: has to be put aside.
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yes.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, I think... The Tony Soprano thing, that
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 4: if it's in the service to growth, you know, I
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 4: can't give Tony too many points.
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 4: I know.
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: I probably took that way too far.
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 4: You know, I'm thinking about one of my grandkids who
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 4: had four years on his sister. And he could be
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 4: like a little boy. You know, if he wanted that toy,
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 4: you just take it. Mm-hmm. And then his mother, my
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 4: beloved daughter, would say, you have to say sorry. So
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 4: he would say, sorry. And at any rate, this is
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 4: obviously a huge topic. And I agree with you entirely
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 4: that is it in the service to my individuation and growth?
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 4: And that I agree. have to come to terms with
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 4: the fact that I'm not always nice and that my
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 4: choice is going to hurt somebody like Emily's choice hurt
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 4: her coworker.
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 4: And that's what I'm doing. Is it really in consciousness? Yes.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 4: And is it going to do anybody good for me
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 4: not to go to Paris? Well, then neither Emily nor
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 4: her co-worker go. Well, then?
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: Well, I think if Andy hadn't gone, Emily would have gone.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 4: Oh, I got the characters backwards.
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: But it's okay. But the reason that I'm making the point, though, Deb,
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: is it's because thinking, well, would anyone benefit if I
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: didn't go is an other orientation. Yeah, that's right. And
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: I think women are always, we're always orienting, which is great.
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: And it's important to be able to not do it sometimes.
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 3: And if we internalize that as an internal community, part
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 3: of what Jung's general message is that the ego and
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 3: the self have their own agenda for the actualization of
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 3: the personality. And all of the competing agendas inside of
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 3: us or outside of us have to be subordinated. in
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 3: order to be prioritizing individuation, which goes to what you
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 3: were saying, Lisa, of is it in service to growth
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 3: and of course the right kind of growth. And what
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 3: does it take to say, you know, this person is
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 3: responsible for their own feelings about thus and such. And
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 3: that my individuation process is a priority if one believes
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 3: it is a great human venture to become who you
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 3: truly are in all its fullness. Now, that may only
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 3: have the resources or the luxury of doing that in
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 3: the second half of life, which is perfectly fine. But
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 3: at a certain point, it's like, you know, honey, you're 40.
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 3: Don't think I can pay your rent for the next
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 3: year because I'm going to take that money and I'm
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 3: going to go to Paris and learn how to paint
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 3: because I've wanted to do that since I was four.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 5: I'm so sorry. Right. And, you know, the daughter might say,
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 5: you're ruthless. Oh, my God, you're destroying me. Get it.
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 3: Of course she might feel that way if she was
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 3: dependent in that way.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 3: At a certain point, the self demands the resources and
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 3: opportunities because something larger than you wants the opportunity to
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 3: live in the world.
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 2: And Joseph, you said it's something really great back toward
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: the beginning. You said that the desire presses up from
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 2: the self, and then it's up to the ego to
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 2: carry that mission forward. And I don't know that I
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 2: thought about it this way before, but I think in
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 2: some sense what I'm saying in the book is that
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 2: you need these tools, you need these qualities to Sometimes
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: you will need them to fulfill your mission.
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: So let's switch dreams. I want to tell you guys
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: there's like 150 dreams.
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 5: Oh, how are you going to choose?
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 4: I got one.
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 5: I got one. Okay.
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 4: We can only do 75. Okay.
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 5: Oh, my God. We'll be here until 2 in the morning.
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 5: I'm game.
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: But before we go, the book is The Vital Spark,
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: Reclaim Your Outlaw Energies and Find Your Feminine Fire by me,
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 2: There is an audio book and it's available and it's
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: read by me and there's an ebook and there's print
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: book and you can order it at the links. You
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: can sign up to get a free meditation that's based
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 2: on one of the fairy tales in the book. Links
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 2: are in the chat. Please buy the book and please
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: leave a review, especially if you liked it. Leave a
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: review on Amazon and Goodreads. And thank you all so
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 2: much for coming and helping me celebrate the book launch.
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 2: And thanks to Deb and Joseph. And I emailed you
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: guys the dream.
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 2: So it's in your email.
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: But it is really short. So I'm going to read it.
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: Today's dreamer is a 42 year old woman who works
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: as an artist. There were workmen digging in the front
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: yard of my childhood home where my parents still live.
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: I was in one of the trenches myself and I
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: kept unearthing warthog skulls. I kept finding one warthog skull
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 2: after another. Then I saw a lilac light glimmer through
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: the soil. I dug down and found a unicorn skull
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: with a glowing lilac horn. I quickly looked around to
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: make sure no one else saw it. I reburied it
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 2: saying that I will come back later at night to
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: get it. And she notes that this dream happened several
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: years ago when I started a job at a major corporation,
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: but it has remained really present. I just left that
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: job to pursue my art full time. And the main
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 2: feelings in the dream were wonder and keeping of a
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 2: secret and a feeling that this was incredibly important. And
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: she notes that the unicorn skull seems to mean something
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 2: about her creativity and artistic skills.
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 4: You know, it's interesting that that image showed up in
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 4: this dream that got chosen. And earlier on, we mentioned unicorns.
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 4: And would you want one crashing around in your house?
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 4: And your answer was, sure, I'll take it.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 5: Sounds good.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 4: It's interesting that This image has shown up in those
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 4: two ways. Okay, let's look at the dream.
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 3: Well, the first thing, just starting at the beginning, is
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 3: they're digging in the front yard of the childhood home.
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 3: So the setting in the beginning generally matters in a dream.
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 3: And I will often, in my own mind, think, oh,
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 3: so there's going to be work on the childhood or
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 3: work on the childhood complexes.
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 3: And something greater than us has decided, well, that's a priority.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 3: That's what we're going to be digging around in.
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: Something's going to be dug up or excavated or unearthed. So,
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: you know, if something's buried in the ground, it's been
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: there for a long time without our knowing about it. Yes.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 2: You know, it was in consciousness before, but now it's
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 2: gone unconscious. You know, I'm going to just Google warthog.
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 2: Ha ha ha.
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 4: I was thinking about Lion King.
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 2: Were those warthogs? Yeah, I guess they were.
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 4: There was a warthog. One of them was a warthog.
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 4: And hyenas.
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 2: Hyenas, right.
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 4: But the warthog was actually one of the good guys.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 2: Oh, was he?
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 4: What does this say on Google?
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 2: Oh, God, they are ugly.
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 3: I think that if we see them as part of
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 3: the pig family, that they would be associated with the
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 3: very primal, super primal great mother.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 5: Yes. The pig who.
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 3: Survives in the wild also has numerous children, has numerous nipples,
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 3: is big and robust. I mean, that's that symbol of
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 3: nature as the fecund mother.
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 2: And I think, wasn't the pig sacred? Was it to.
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 4: Demeter, Ceres.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 2: Demeter, yes. The earth goddess, goddess.
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 4: Of throwing things, where we get the word cereal from.
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 3: So I think of warthogs as being in that Same place,
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 3: though they seem more exotic to us, not being from our.
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 5: Part of the world.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 4: What I'm imagining, though, you know, from your instant reaction, Joseph,
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 4: they're really not attractive. They're ugly.
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 3: Unlike the beautiful pigs that roam around. They're just fetching.
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 4: Pigs are smart. Pigs are sentient. And pigs go from
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 4: being little piglets to... to being market weight of 200
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 4: and some pounds in months, a matter of months.
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 4: Which is amazing. But my guess is that she's in
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 4: the process. I like that she's in the trenches.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 4: And she keeps on going with unearthing these ugly pig-like
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 4: Not pleasing personas. They're not beautiful deer or adorable Persian cats.
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 4: They're shadow. They look ugly, but they have value. They
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 4: are primal. You know, they are associated with the goddess.
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 4: And she keeps going. It looks like, gosh, all I'm
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 4: getting is warthogs here.
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 5: Warthogs all the way down. Exactly. Exactly.
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 4: And then I saw a lilac light and finds the
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 4: unicorn skull.
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: I know. It's such an astonishing image. What do we
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 2: think about lilac? I mean, purple is associated with the emperor,
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 2: also with individuation. But lilac is a.
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 4: Pale.
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 2: You know what I just realized I can do? I
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 2: can share. I can put the dream up on the screen.
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 3: Uh-huh.
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: So people can see it. Oh, my gosh.
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 4: That's just great.
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: So lilac, it's a pale purple. So it might be
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 2: something kind of nascent or that's just kind of beginning.
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 3: It also evokes the flower. The word purple has only
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 3: a meaning.
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 5: It's only a color. But lilac is both a color
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 5: but also a flower.
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 5: So it has... several.
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 3: Qualities to it in lilacs, of course, are fragrant. They
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 3: grow in cold terrains. They don't grow in warm areas
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 3: because they require a very hard winter freeze in order
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 3: for the buds to set. Yeah, because I've tried to
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 3: grow them down here in North Carolina.
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 5: It's just sad.
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 2: That's great. It's also interesting that it's shining through the soil.
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 4: But I want to footnote something just for all our
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 4: listeners that just noticed what we did. As soon as
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 4: warthog came up, it's, oh, let me see what they
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 4: really look like. As soon as Lilac came up, oh,
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 4: let me see what else this is associated with. And
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 4: that's a huge part of look it up, get an image,
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 4: get a definition, get a link to a myth or
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 4: a fairy tale so that we can amplify the image
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 4: and make it bigger and get to the meaning.
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 2: So let's go to the central image in the dream,
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 2: which of course is the unicorn.
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 4: That's the key feature of a unicorn. Otherwise, you would
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 4: just have a white horse.
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 3: To me also, what's important is that she's excavating these
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 3: bones and they don't necessarily have any life in them.
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 3: They're artifacts of something that was once alive.
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 2: Oh, good point.
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 3: The unicorn is also an artifact of something that is
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 3: now dead. There is secret life in the horn, like
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 3: a rhizome or a... tuber or root, the thing that
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 3: looks dead, the life force has withdrawn itself into the horn. Again, lilac,
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 3: like a lot of other shrubs that are acclimated to very,
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 3: very cold weather, all the life goes into the roots
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 3: in order to survive the winter. And now it's time
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 3: to excavate something that has been stored in.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 5: The roots of things.
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 2: So, I mean, this dream is just such a perfect
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 2: dream for what we were talking about today. Because the
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 2: skull with its glowing horn is kind of an image
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 2: of this vital spark. And it literally was buried. And
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 2: then it sounds like she did excavate it. And a
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 2: few years later, left her corporate job to become an artist.
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 2: And that is exactly, you know, in fact, I just
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 2: want to, I want to amplify the dream actually with
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 2: just a little snippet from the book because it's just
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 2: so kind of perfect. Jung says, the social goal, this
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 2: is Jung, the social goal is attained only at the
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 2: cost of a diminution of personality. Many, far too many
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 2: aspects of life which should have been experienced lie in
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 2: the lumber room among dusty memories. But sometimes, too, they
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 2: are glowing coals under gray ashes. Yeah, isn't that a beautiful,
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 2: such a beautiful quote?
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 4: Perfect.
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 2: But here it is. The unicorn skull has been like
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 2: a banked coal in her life. And it may be
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 2: that it's taking place in the front yard of her
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 2: childhood home because... You know, perhaps art was a love
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 2: in childhood, just like we were talking about before. For
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 2: some of us, you know, like Francis Gumm, Judy Garland,
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 2: we kind of knew. And now she's come back to it.
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 3: What I'd like to expand upon is if the Warthog
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 3: skulls are associated with the Great Mother, that the unicorn,
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 3: which is often associated with the virginity.
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 3: Only the pure, the virgin, the uncorrupted consciousness can find
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 3: the ethereal animal. So what we imagine is there was
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 3: a unicorn, there was a virginal time in the life,
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 3: something occurs, and what the horn represents, which might be
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 3: the artistic interests, passes out of consciousness and it winds
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 3: up getting buried. But what gets buried on top of
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 3: it are more and more and more and more of
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 3: the primal mother.
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's great. Yeah.
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 5: Which may have.
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 3: Been even appropriate at the time. I don't know if
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 3: this person maybe had many years of being a mother.
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 3: And so the artifacts of that build up on top
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 3: of it.
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 2: But if I can even just link it to my book,
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 2: whether or not she's actually been a mother, the primal
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 2: mother might be that kind of blind urge toward caregiving.
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 2: So, you know, maybe you're always the one who, you know.
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 5: The warthog out there.
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, is looking out for coworkers or, you know, putting
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 2: yourself out for friends or whatever. So, yeah, that's an
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 2: interesting detail in the dream, Joseph.
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 4: And I'm going to go back to my thought that
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 4: a warthog can also be a great image of shadow.
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 4: They have these big horns. They're aggressive, you know. Nobody
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 4: feels all warm and fuzzy toward a warthog.
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 5: And yet for yourself.
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, I didn't mean you, Joseph. I know you've.
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 2: Offended warthogs and Tony Soprano today.
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 4: Oh, good Lord. What will happen next? But I do
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 4: think there's a connection to shadow that we don't want
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 4: to be. We don't want to be. I don't want
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 4: to be a warthog. I would like to be a gazelle.
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 3: Maybe the warthog could be the crone version of the
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 3: pig in as much as it's kind of warty and
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 3: fierce and looks like something the Baba Yaga might keep
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 3: as a pet.
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So I think all those things are very good.
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 4: They're not in opposition to each other. This is an
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 4: additive process. It's this and it's this. And it could
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 4: be this and it could be this. And you, our dreamer,
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 4: thank you very much. You know, see what resonates for you. What,
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 4: like the unicorn horn, lights up in you about Warthog? And,
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 4: you know, I'm also content to leave it to our
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 4: dreamer and other people who are listening. What's a unicorn exactly?
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 2: Well, I will tell you that my symbol dictionary has
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 2: multiple pages on unicorns. And Joseph already alluded to the
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 2: medieval legend. that it would come and place its head
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: docilely in the lap of a virgin. So there's Christian
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 2: symbolism that goes along with it and on and on.
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: There's a lot. So that would be an interesting thing
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 2: for the dreamer to do is look that up if
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 2: she hasn't done that already. But thank you. Thank you
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 2: to everyone who submitted a dream. I'm sorry that we
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 2: couldn't get to them all. If you want a better
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 2: shot at getting your dream interpreted, remember you can always
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 2: become a patron. We do... patron dreams from our Patreon supporters.
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: We do them, what, is it three times a month, Joseph,
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 2: as extra dream episodes?
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 3: That people can give us questions or dreams. We do
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 3: one of those a month, or we do all of
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 3: them at the end of the month and we just
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 3: put them all out quickly. But generally speaking, that we
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 3: release individual dream interpretations submitted exclusively by our patrons.
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 2: So we hope you'll consider that. And of course, we
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: hope you'll also take a look at Dream School, which
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 2: is our 12-month online program where you can learn how
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: to interpret dreams, similarly to how we just worked with
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 2: this one. Like us and subscribe to us and follow
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 2: us on all the various platforms. We're on YouTube, we're
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts and everywhere else you get your podcasts.
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 2: And of course... Buy the Vital Spark.
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 4: Get lit.
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 5: There you go.
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 4: And don't forget to write a review on Amazon. And
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 4: what else, Lisa?
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 2: Goodreads. Goodreads. But mostly I hope you buy it and
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 2: read it and enjoy it. And I hope it resonates
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 2: and speaks to you.
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 2: But we do appreciate the support. So thank you all
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 2: so much to everyone who joined us. And thanks again
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 2: to everyone who, that's just remarkable how many people submitted dreams. Finally,
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 2: before we go in the last couple of minutes, links
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 2: in the chat to purchase the book and receive a meditation,
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 2: a guided meditation, and also links where you can purchase
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 2: the book.
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 5: Stick with us.
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It was great doing this. Maybe we should do
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 2: this again sometime. I'm aware there were over 100 questions
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 2: we didn't get to. So maybe sometime we need to
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 2: do this more often.
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 4: What I would be interested in, that's an interesting idea
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 4: going forward, the Jungian concept of telos, write to us.
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 4: What would you like?
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great idea. What would you like.
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 4: Us to do? What would you like us to talk
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 4: about it? How would you like us to talk about it? Webinars?
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 4: Just keep listening to the podcast? More Q & A?
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 4: You tell us.
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 3: There's a link at the website where you can make recommendations.
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 3: That's the best way to reach us.
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 2: You can absolutely leave a recommendation for topics, and you
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 2: can also email us if you have comments on the
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 2: format today. You can always email us at admin at
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 2: this union life.com. So yes, it was really fun being
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 2: with you all. And, uh, we, uh, be back next week.
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 4: It was great. And buy the book.
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 6: All right.
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 2: Bye bye.
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 1: You've been listening to This Jungian Life. From our website, thisjungianlife.com,
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 1: you can follow us on Twitter, like us on Facebook,
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: help us produce future episodes by funding us through Patreon,
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: and submit your dreams for possible interpretation on another episode.
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 1: We'd like to thank our listener who shared a dream
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 1: for today's show and hope you'll let us know what
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 1: topics you'd enjoy hearing more about. Until next time, keep
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: living this Jungian life.
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 2: Thank you.