Latest / Radiant Voices / The Power of Speaking from Presence - The Connection between Mindfulness and Communication
Transcript
- speaker-0: Mindfulness is bringing your attention to your breath, and when it mind wanders, bring it back. And that's actually not even mindfulness defined by the Buddhist tradition. That's shamata. That's the first preliminary to mindfulness. Mindfulness is the next move to pull back, to open up and observe what was the subject, now becomes an object or a part of you that's being observed. by a type of mindful awareness. speaker-1: Okay, welcome everybody. I am tremendously excited and really happy to be sitting with Loc Kelly. Locke is, I would say, ⁓ an in a mentor of mine, someone that I've been really ⁓ lucky enough to work with as a student on his retreats. And his work deeply informed my work to this date. And let me tell you a little bit about Locke he's an author, a meditation teacher, a licensed psychotherapist, and he's the founder of the non nonprofit, the effort. Mindfulness Institute. So all of this leads towards his work which combines contemporary psychology, ancient wisdom from a mindfulness perspective, and contemporary and neuroscience. So all of this comes together in his work centered around what he calls effortless mindfulness. And so let's begin in the most simple place possible, which is right here and now. If we teleported us both back to twenty-one years old into our original consciousness at university or wherever we were at that time, operating in our ordinary mind, what is that kind of awareness or what is that state of consciousness relative to mindfulness and then relative to effortless mindfulness? Can you describe the kind of progression that one might experience? speaker-0: Yes, thank you, Jeremy. It's so great to be here with you and always a pleasure. ⁓ so yes, here we go. Transporting back. So so twenty one years old, yeah. So the you know, very much ⁓ you know, focused on waking up, you know, what do I gotta do? What classes do I have to go to? ⁓ what happened last night, what what's going on, you know worries or concerns, ⁓ problem solving. You know, is there a problem I have to do? Is there something to avoid? Is there something to get today? you know, who who who do I want to talk to? You know, so very very personality ⁓ driven, very you know, animal driven in a normal sense, just, you know, getting getting food, what's for breakfast? You know, what's what where am I gonna get Lunch, who am I, you know, social part of the human? ⁓ who am I gonna hang out with and have some fun with during the day and ⁓ what sport? Yeah, so so I played sports, so like what's the is there a game today or practice or you know, getting there and getting ready to to do that. So ⁓ you know, strong you know, physical animal ⁓ instinctual, social, and then the mental tends to be this contracted me. So there's nothing wrong with the most of what's going on there at twenty one or even now, in terms of, you know, craving food, wanting to get it, making it mine, you know, those, you know, getting, wanting, desiring of functional dimensions of our consciousness and life in terms of our r identity related to a particular body in the world that has to survive and thrive. However, the extra thing is that the mental development from being a ⁓ dependent child who just was more instinctual and then had to develop this functional, okay, I've got to go out on my own and know What a green light and a red light, where they're across the street and be safe, which is good. But then thought based, I think therefore I am, referential, self referential identity, contracted mental me starts to be the feeling of okay, I can function with this identity, but it keeps looping on itself and it keeps judging itself. It splits off into good and bad and right and wrong and what's wrong with me and then I feel hurt emotionally by peers or situations that I and then there's a part of me that feels less than and then another part that well, you know, get it together, you know, or or whatever the judgment or the functional ⁓ protector parts or the manager ⁓ system stays very contracted and there's either some anxiety or kind of overwhelm of depression or low level w ⁓ feeling of less than or not good enough that tends to dominate the emotional body. speaker-1: It sounds very familiar to me. My twenties were definitely full of angst and self-judgment and all the things like that. A lot of self r self-referential thought and as he's described, a lot of parts ⁓ in dialogue with each other. I'm good at this, I'm bad at this, why am I so terrible at this? A lot of self-judgment. And I'm really trapped within a kind of an architecture of thoughts thinking about other thoughts. Yes. Hard work. speaker-0: Yeah, and these parts which have not just thought, because that's one of the things about bringing ⁓ sometimes the mindfulness can just focus on thoughts as if we're only thought, but they're our emotions and identities that create what we're calling subpersonalities or parts or that have thought, feeling, sensation, worldview, identity. ⁓ so it's not just the thinking that's the problem, it's it's this identification with this constellation of a small self or an ego identity, you know, to talk in a very common way. ⁓ speaker-1: That's good. And yeah, thank yeah. Yeah, keep going. Yeah, so so we've we've identified as you say this the these can you give me the exact term you do you use to describe ⁓ rather than just the mind, the the whole part and all of its density. speaker-0: Yeah, the yeah, so so the you know, so there's the you know, the dimensions of consciousness, physical, emotional, mental, instinctual, and then these patterns of survival or identity. And so now we're gonna move to okay, how do we move ⁓ what what i ultimately what is the what is the option? What is what is the solution or or what is is there a a way to learn to upgrade? this system of identity and mind, or is there a way to actually continue, in my sense, to ⁓ have a human developmental stage that is common and available that we just don't know about. But if we know what it is and can learn like we grow from you know not knowing how to read to learning how to read or maybe even you know, having the innate ability to have language. So there's an innate ability to awaken or to ⁓ access or to move this sense of beingness or awake consciousness or true nature or higher self or all these words that are imperfect to describe what this next identity is. So this mindfulness ⁓ what I call the mindfulness move ⁓ often is described first level is to calm that system. So yoga does that. So there's many ways to calm it and many people find that through exercise, through ⁓ singing, music, right? Through ⁓ watching their breath, through yoga, through sauna, through taking a nap. You know, anything to calm the system is called shamata or peaceful abiding, calm abiding. And often the traditional way in a Buddhist mindfulness is to use a one pointed focus on your breath. ⁓ basically you're giving your mind a simple task because the mind tends to wander and get complex and identify with automatic thoughts that keep going an automatic thought just says, okay, whatever's happening, just give it a simple task and the breath is happening by itself. So just be aware of that. Then when it wanders, bring it back. So that's one way. I don't think that is necessarily certainly it's not the only way. And I don't think it's necessarily the best way for people. I think people need to find, but it is important Because the system when it's agitated and running ⁓ like a hamster on a treadmill, towards survival and thriving, ⁓ it's hard to shift into the next level of identity in mind if you don't have some calm. So some way of calming, and there's many ways we could explore and I kind of in like my meditation app, I give different ways to calm the system and many people already have good ways that they can use. So that's the first kind of mindful s stage. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that first mind f mindfulness stage, and it's often the one that people land on first, is this thing of sitting and meditating. In general, most people that I encounter, or many people that I encounter, will report struggling with meditation and feeling like failures. You know, there's this sense of trying to bring the mind back and of course the mind does what it does as it leaps away and wants to get solving problems and that feels like a failure every time they loop into mind. And so often the the mindfulness project is abandoned at this particular place. And I think that's one of the joys of your work is that it offers, I think, the potential to sidestep the ⁓ potential grind of a lifetime sitting on a mat trying to bring your awareness to your heart or to your breathing and feeling like a failure. There's something else, right? There's another alternative. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, and that's very well said, Jeremy, in terms of you know, how how many people give up what is the first preliminary stage of meditation. They can't even get to the next few because they're told, Well, you have to walk through this door and the door is is one point of attention, which is basically concentration, which ultimately is not w the what you'll be using later on. And in fact you you're actually reinforcing the ego's strengthening attempt to do something that ultimately it it's you know it's already pretty good at in a general sense of like driving and stuff, but it it's never it's not even an advantage to become a great concentrator because you're gonna once you upgrade, you're actually focused from this effortless flow and y everything's able to focus from this bigger awareness based embodied ⁓ presence which is completely different than concentration. speaker-1: Beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. So we're gonna chat a little bit later about some of the effects of what we're describing in the realms of communication, but you're describing a shift ⁓ from the first kind of form of meditation, which has its place, but but involves a lot of effort and ultimately control from within parts of us that are already potentially too in control. Does that describe it? And there's another thing where you relinquish control and you learn how to exist, communicate, be from a place of naturalness where one's relinquished that form of control. And then you use that word flow. And we'll we'll come into that as we as we get into that section. I want to c hold us a little bit in this narrow range if you don't mind. speaker-0: Yeah, let's stay. We'll keep climbing the climbing the ladder of mindfulness here. speaker-1: Exactly. Okay, so there is this effort effortful mindfulness which many people have struggled with. Many people have also experienced goodness within it. Where is effortful mi effortful mindfulness good? speaker-0: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So so it it does, you know, as similar to exercise, ⁓ you know, doing something like singing or ⁓ an activity like gardening or, you know, something where you're you're focused on one task and you're not, you know, getting keep getting ⁓ lost in thought or, you know, dominated by the chattering mind because you're doing a simple task or you're you know working with your breath in a way that is allows it to be natural, there's a calming effect. And it helps the brain and the research has been done that it generally is is good, but it it's more toward a calming and it it calms the symptoms. However, what you end up doing is you're getting a temporary calm like taking a sauna or getting a massage. you know, ⁓ an hour later or a day later you're back again or half a day later you're you have to do it again to get the symptoms because the the root cause hasn't been addressed. So so the next move. So if you as you say, you know, when you look up even Google or, you know, use AI to chat GBT to ask what is mindfulness. I mean you'll of often get Mindfulness is bringing your attention to your breath, and when your mind wanders, bring it back. And that's actually not even mindfulness defined by the Buddhist tradition. That's Shamatha, that's the first preliminary to mindfulness. Mindfulness is the next move, which actually is a amazing move, which is somehow to shift from that thought-based concentrator that's focused on trying to watch that simple task and do that and to step out, to pull back, to open up and observe what was the subject now becomes an object or a part of you that's being observed by a type of mindful awareness. So then you can see, ⁓ wait a minute, I'm focusing here on my breath, then you just follow the back instead of focusing on your breath, you move up and then you you realize, ⁓ wait a minute, who's focusing on the breath? And then you feel people can feel it from a certain dimension. They use often don't even think about where they're feeling it from. That's the next move. But all of a sudden you can watch your thoughts. You can feel that the one that was concentrating isn't solid and that it is changing contents. which is why it was wandering. The reason it was the mind was wandering is because th there is no solid, you know, consistent self that is a stable thing. So it keeps showing itself as like you know, constellation and and patterning so that you can actually see that. And when you realize, you know, kind of these classic things, ⁓ I'm not my thoughts. ⁓ I'm not the one Who's worried and anxious, I'm aware of the part of me that's worried. And the part of me that's aware is not worried and is not thought based, but it's knowing. So that like that we hopefully people at least can get to that, although yeah, so I'll just stop there and see if you wanna speaker-1: It's beautiful. I think it it definitely it it it's worth a pause. So it is this extraordinary experience of being completely identified with the ongoing narrative in one's mind and then discovering or rather experiencing that a part of us is always aware, listening to that narration going on. And when for example, when we find ourselves looking at a view and perhaps not narrating thoughts to it, we are capable of of just being aware, independent of thought. And so our sense of self, instead of being, I am all these thoughts and these problems that I think about, is a sense of self, or at least our experience starts to shift into this wider view, which is I'm simply this awareness, and my awareness includes thoughts and sensations and so on. My awareness, I'll just use that ⁓ loosely. Yeah. Back to you. Just ⁓ don't know if you want to clarify on what I said there. speaker-0: Yeah, and and you you've even because you you do go further, you even went half a step further because when people go to just that mindfulness, they don't even think, ⁓ I'm the awareness. They're the the arrow's still pointing here. So they're even not even concerned with what this is. They're like, ⁓ look at the thoughts, sensations are coming and going, thoughts are coming and going, feelings are coming going, ⁓ I'm not there's a You know, the the classic Buddhist words are ⁓ anitja, which means change, things are constantly changing, and anata. ⁓ that's not that self is not solid. There's not a solid self. So it's still like toward the it's a disembodied ⁓ observer that's focused on the contents of consciousness and seeing it. through a lens almost like you've moved from glasses to, you know, a microscope. But you're you you still think you're looking through the microscope. You're at the and you do see who you're not. So the insight is to who you're not, but not yet, okay, well if I'm not that, what's the new operating system? So often ⁓ and there's the research by one of my colleagues, Willoughby Britain Who did a research on people during their first five-day retreats in this style of ⁓ just deconstructing the and seeing who you're not, meditation. ⁓ and she said 40% of the people got flooded by their unconscious material. Because when you take away the ego, you can't take away the ego defenses. So you take away the the protectors. And then the unconscious material, you don't have yet the who, who's who is who is the one who all of this is occurring to has not upgraded yet. So this becomes kind of a big a big important step of why effortless mindfulness introduces as soon as possible, okay, if you're not this, let's go find out who or what you are that can bear what seems to be unbearable, can can be with and is already has the capacity to ⁓ to be with and titrate feelings, thoughts, or be be big enough so that any storm doesn't hurt the ocean or the sky. speaker-1: Beautiful. Yeah, reminds me of you know Ram Das is the late great Ram Das's book, Be Here Now. And of course it sounds so simple. What you know, surely we're all just being here now. But I think you're pointing to something with effortful effortless mindfulness, a potential to kind of cut through something very quickly. So can you describe a little bit about the process of how you cut through? And and perhaps we should do we should do a glimpse now. The the how and also where are where are we pointing through to? speaker-0: Yes. Yes. So so so that move we've we've calmed the system in whatever way helps, but if we if we went by this one point in concentration and then we follow that ⁓ flashlight type of attention that is focused on object, we follow it back. Well wait a minute, where's the flashlight? ⁓ let me can I be aware of the flashlight? Now we're in this ⁓ floodlight or this ⁓ street light. You know, we're above and we're looking at the flashlight identity from this streetlight identity. ⁓ now what we're gonna do is there's a couple different ways, but we were like, well wait a minute, or this microscope identity. ⁓ who's behind the microscope? Well well let's let's go look. And as the awareness turns back and looks through, it doesn't find a a point of view. It finds ⁓ an open ⁓ hopefully spacious but also pervasive. So one of the metaphors would be like, okay, you're you feel like you're solid individual, then you feel a little more ⁓ change in content. So now you're like a cloud, but it's a storm cloud still, and you're aware of it, and you're trying to clean it up with positive intentions and and even in that system, you know, like training the mind to be more co equanimity and loving kindness and But then it keeps being some strong so here we're like, okay, let's step out of the cloud and realize we're the sky. Now like rest is the sky. Don't look back yet, just rest is the sky. Now come back and don't even just look at the cloud, but realize, ⁓ wait a minute, we're not other than the cloud. We're within the cloud, and the cloud is made of the same dimension of of consciousness, it's just patterning from, you know, ⁓ ox you know, w there's there's some water there, there's in the cloud, there's like a ⁓ oxygen, but also then hydrogen comes together. And now we got H two O and now we got you know, and so it's all invisible, ⁓ potential and then it becomes formations invisible, humidity than water, then it can be even ice if you want to use the that, but solid. ⁓ and they're not separate. So all of a sudden you start to realize, okay, there's this dimension of consciousness that isn't thought based, looking from behind the eyes, but it isn't disembodied like a mindful witness, and it isn't separate. So there's a you know, the word non dual means it there's kind of you're not just awareness The awareness and the aliveness, the emptiness and the f form are not two. There's a there's there's a multi-dimensional feeling, but this this move the the next move we're talking about from that mindful witness to to opening to feel this awareness that is clear and knowing and visible and Can't be hurt, that has no fear, no worry, no agenda, and yet is with and within that which has agenda or worry or fear or and so you're not you can get caught in what's called a spiritual bypass. ⁓ some of the non dual initial moves people get caught in this, like, ⁓ I'm just the awareness. And I'm free and there's nobody here named Locke, there's just awareness and things just happen and and ⁓ and and everything else is a movie. And you know, that's you know, that's non dual. And I'm like, well that's but there's dual. There's what's the movie? You know, what's the relationship so what's the relationship to this from this? So that's the next kind of Buddhist they call it ⁓ you know, you call it nondual presence. Rather than just nondual awareness, or you can call it in the Mahamudra Buddhist tradition, they call it same taste. The awareness and the aliveness, they have the same taste. They're not this it's not oneness, but they're not separate. They're interdependent. And that's the embodied beingness that has shifted from the small self that's worried about what how to solve a problem to. to ⁓ to this whole holistic ⁓ feeling of being. speaker-1: Sounds beautiful. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna tr try describe that ⁓ as a thought experiment for our listeners. And and we'll see if if this lands as as an accurate description of what you've said. I I might I might have got might be ⁓ talking about a slightly different stage, but I I just would invite everyone to consider what it would be like or to let me slow down here, to consider what it would be like to sit in this moment relatively free of thoughts. Where they're just aware of their surroundings, fully available, feeling the sensations of the body, emotions could pass through, thoughts maybe could pass through, but there was this sense of presence, a kind of even a knowing that you were present, a real awaken to it rather than being lost in the minutiae of thought. And the s this kind of spacious but embodied awareness. would have a sense of capacity to it and calm and emotion could r arise from within it, but the awareness itself just feels incredibly safe to exist as, to be in, to be within. I'm just exploring it. How did that feel? Any any corrections or or or adjustments to that? speaker-0: Yeah, no, that's a great we'll call that, you know, sometimes you say it a thought experiment and it it could be a sense of what's called pointers. So a pointer is is using language to just point a person, all right, can you notice that you're not just thought, but there's awareness that's aware of the thought. And people may go into their head and think about it, then they won't get it. But there's ways of of helping people move and of course, ⁓ you know, just to say that there is this gap that some people have these protective parts that just quickly turn back. So they these parts that feel like I want to be solid and real and survive and ⁓ you know, be be seen, you know, when they l they unhook or let go or open They're like, ⁓ no, here we go. Watch out. You know, and they snap back. So we have to so that kind of ⁓ giving the premise. ⁓ okay, you like you did, that's or the hypothesis, okay. This is a hypothesis that if you let go and discover this openness, you're gonna come back and everything's gonna be included, nothing's being left, but you need to go You know, it's like a kid is a little scared, just let it know I'm just going to the kitchen to get some food, I'll be right back, and then see if that isn't more holistic. So maybe I can do a an inquiry here. Let's do that, yes. To kind of follow follow on your your hypothesis. You're kind of setting it up. So that's the premise that this ⁓ thought based system is just operating on, you know ⁓ half of its capacity of physical, mental, emotional, survival brain, which is not we're not getting rid of that, we're just upgrading it like a you know, you would if you were a Tai Chi master. You know, you'd still physically safe, but now you're do it with calm, you know, and and and flow. So so the the main thing that is is the scanning for danger ⁓ dimension of what's called the negativity bias in the brain where the the past worst case scenarios are being projected and scanned for in the future. Is there any danger? And so we're in the past and then we're scanning into the future and we're we're overlaying that. So it's but basically it's it's trying to solve, look for any problem and solve a problem. Is is there if there's a pain in your foot Is there a knife there? Do I need to quick go check? You know, look at your foot. Is there a ⁓ or your knee, you know, like, ⁓ what's that? Check that. ⁓ is it okay? Okay, I don't know. And then anything moves or somebody's face kind of looks, you know, you're like, ⁓ are they upset at me? And or is there something I need to do? did I forget anything? You know, so it's looking for a problem in the world, in the future, in the past. So if that problem solver wasn't Front and center wasn't sitting behind your eyes looking out, but it could be here, but just for now, in these next few minutes, you can look around. Is there anything dangerous in the room? Could you let that problem solver just soften back and open to the potential that there's another effortless awareness already here? So the inquiry is this so what's here now? What's this that's aware just now when there's no problem to solve? So just noticing that problem solver and just inviting it, thanking it for its hard work, asking it to Rest back or down. And then just being curious. When that thought based scanning dimension is not primary, what's this? That is simply aware? Just feel not think, but feel. What's this that's here that's invisible and yet alert to? And then just see if you can shift to not only being aware of this, alert awareness, but what's it like to rest as this? And as you rest as this and begin to be aware from this, just notice as this awareness what's the relationship to movement, vibration, energy, sensation, thoughts, feelings, your body and the room, if they're not separate. So what if everything was welcome and included? From this non thought based, open, spacious, pervasive, invisible. Beingness or interbeing or Non thought based. Clarity, but it has dynamism. So thoughts are welcome, feelings are welcome, but they're you're just not needing to analyze or there's a capacity to know that all is well and be with apart any parts that feel Uncomfortable, pleasant or unpleasant. without having to react but just to welcome and have this kind of knowing that's inherent within whatever's happening and is almost with it how do you feel toward whatever's arising from kind of a loving awareness. See if there's kind of a compassionate. welcoming feeling from here as well, so that it's embodied and isn't as reactive but is able to move your hand if you you could move your hand from here, lift it and put it down. And then you could also intentionally use thought, like remember your phone number. And then just like your hand, you can put intentional thought down. And just still be clear and aware, and you could respond. From here. speaker-1: So lovely. Immediately a sense of peace or accessing a sense of peace. And I've I've shared versions of this because I I know Locke has taught this for a long time, versions of it. And I've shared it with my my classes. And the very first thing people access often is a sense of peace or calm. And it's really quick. It's and I think this and of course they start accessing senses of awareness or clarity or Presents and I'm curious. Because of this really quick cutting through, can you describe a little bit about what direct path ⁓ means or or what these glimpses are and what what they can offer us living in our modern society with our phones and our terribly ⁓ hijacked awareness. speaker-0: Yes. Yeah, so so this is the premise ⁓ or the hypothesis that the you know, the word th the meaning of effortless mindfulness is not that you make no effort, it's that when you make a small effort, like this glimpse or this shift, that you discover that there already is naturally installed within all of us this kind of effortless awareness. that doesn't require concentration, but is alert and is the primary dimension prior to thought. So before babies learn thought, there was this beingness or this awareness that but it gets covered over. And so it's kind of just a background, foreground shift. And it's just been ⁓ You know, we've just been so involved and habitually trained to look to thought, to emotion, and try to function and we don't know that there's a higher capacity that's inherent within. So it's not creating anything, it's not it's not an altered state. It's you know, it's like i it's not a meditation state. It's actually the nat what's called the natural condition or the nature of mind that The mind isn't thought based, that's one of its functions, but its nature is awareness. And then it can move your hand, it can use thought, and that in Buddhism thinking is considered the sixth sense. So just like our five senses that we all know, thinking is just a sense occurring to what or whom. awareness and then used by what or whom awake consciousness, beingness, self with a capital S in Hinduism. And in this, you know, internal family systems, they use this self, a small self, and then this large self, or TikNathan calls it interbeing, and, you know, other cultures, whatever you want to call that, it's not a It's not about ⁓ a belief system. This is really almost like going in a scientific way and using these as little experiments to say, like, all right, can you shift from this thought-based operating system to this awareness-based? And doesn't it include everything? Yes or no? I'm not telling you what to do, I'm inviting you to look. So that's called a pointer. So it's a direct invitation. or you know, pointer to s have the person look for themselves, not say, okay, imagine a beach and or imagine, you know, or be become happy or even what they call in there's there's relative loving kindness and ultimate loving kindness. So relative, you know, imagine, you know, sending loving kindness. So that's a meditation state. So this, when you discover this, it's like, okay, let go of conditioning and see what's here and then all of a sudden it's not a negative thing that we feel like we're been defending against this unconscious material that even deeper or subtler really than the unconscious hurt or trauma or anything, subtler and wider and more primary. is this loving awareness that then can be with the trauma or the or the hurt parts ⁓ much more easily because even there's there's no no matter how smart or or or or developed your ego is, it it can't bear a fully emotional life. It can't handle trauma. It can't handle ⁓ but your awareness based identity can. So it's almost a natural immediate recognition, or it's called a recognition or realization. But then the habit is very strong of the old system. So it's not ⁓ you know, instant enlightenment or instant coffee. You know, it's not like that. It's it it requires so this way that I have found and was taught to me is called small glimpses, repeated ⁓ consistently, and then there's a always awakeness is always here, but then there's always unfolding and there's a healing and there's a kind of a almost like a developmental stage. You know, you kind of recognize you have the capacity, now you have to take it on the road and and try it out and learn and make mistakes and get get triggered back to the old system and you learn to return and then you train to remain and over time you it becomes the new normal. speaker-1: Yeah, it it it it's gotta be a revolution in human experience. I I I remember that Maslow, I'm told Maslow's hierarchy at one p at or for most of time ended at ⁓ self actualization. In other words, I must become the best me possible. I must actualize me. And then yeah, so towards the end of his life, he then added on a new top of the triangle, which was self transcendence. And I know you wrote in Shift into Freedom, you got deeply into this notion of emancipating oneself from this from the self, which and I really want to say this to everyone who's listening: nothing that Locke is saying is conceptual whatsoever. Everything he's describing is actually very simple human experience. In fact, and it's and it's really a shift from a kind of a very complex human experience, really wedded to thought and emotion, as a very believable ⁓ and very complete experience into something much cleaner. It in it we still retain those emotions and thoughts, but they're held or in in a what much wider view. And it's a really beautiful shift. And in and and and in spite of all the metaphors as as ⁓ or the pointers as as Locke is sharing, ultimately what he's sharing, the experience is incredibly simple, right? speaker-0: Yes. Yes. I mean the the simple the you know, that initial shift like we did with that what's here now when there's no problem to solve glimpse. ⁓ you know, like I have hundreds of those for different learning styles ⁓ in audio on my app or written. ⁓ because there's just little places people can get caught or defended. However, the the initial Recognition is actually not a deep experience. It's not it's not even an advanced experience in terms of it's it's it's right here. It's like that first but the the realization and the abiding and the you know, living from it is requires ⁓ kind of like a developmental stage. As you said, yeah, that I have ⁓ If people are interested in that Maslow, ⁓ Scott Barry Kaufman, who was on my podcast, ⁓ has written a couple books and that's his area, is describing that next stage that and going back into the the writings that weren't even published by Maslow about where he ended up in self-transcendence. So i I like that because it isn't a belief system. This isn't a religion, this isn't ⁓ Even though meditators or contemplatives have done a lot of this ⁓ research, to me they're like inner astronauts, you know, they're they're or they're using ⁓ glasses and then microscope and then electron microscope. And on when you look at electron microscope, you can look at a table or your body and the air and you can't see a division because it's so subtle ⁓ that there's just movement of molecules and and electrons. that are, you know, in the air and in your body or on the table, that that's the subtle dimension, but you don't the key is we're not living from that. The goal is not, ⁓ in this tradition to become a monk or to become to leave society or to be spiritually bypassed or, you know, to be there's nobody here, everything is fine. Would you would you like this, you know, what kind of tea would you like? All tea is the same. You know, like I to have no, I have no preferences. You know. So it's it's really to be more ju more juice, you know, have more more freedom to feel more love, more joy, more sense of less worry. So if you were to talk about as you've worked with and I've worked with people doing public speaking or doing other things like that, you know, there's the th that fear of the the group coming at you or judging you. And your own self judgment. So that social anxiety is like a part of you and you can be with that part from this internal family systems. You just recognize that, ⁓ there's a part of me that really is scared and worried and anxious. All right, where is that in your body? Okay, it's here, it's like here, in my stomach, it's like this little line. Okay, can you be aware of it and thank it for caring and realize it's a positive part now? Can you unblend or ask for space so you can be aware of it and you can be with this and realize, ⁓ there's a part. Now is there another part of you that actually is really looking forward and excited in a positive way? Yes, that's where's that? That's like, you know, like this little tingly thing here and my heart. And it's like, okay, so now who's aware of both those parts? ⁓ well I am. Okay, so from here can you go and and just you know, give your give your talk. speaker-1: Love that example. Thank you for sharing that. That's obviously very relevant to this audience. I do want to give a just a huge plug in this moment for your app and working with Locke. He's got an incredibly, I'm just going to speak about you in the third person for a moment. He's got an incredibly coherent system for waking up this form of presence or awareness or self from an IFS point of view, self with the capital S. And Go to his Mindful Glimpses app. ⁓ there'll be a link in the show notes. There's twenty percent off for a year. I'd heartily recommend working with him in person. ⁓ so on his website, lockkelly.org ⁓ or ⁓ mindfulglimpses.com. Is that right? speaker-0: ⁓ y I think so, yeah. I know lockelly dot dot org is good. And it has everything there. Yeah. speaker-1: Great, yeah. So Lock Kelly.org and it has everything there. I've been on retreats at least two times, maybe three, I'm not sure, in Costa Rica, but I know he does retreats in the US and and ⁓ elsewhere. ⁓ he does online retreats as well. And the the app itself is a concentrated form of ⁓ many or of or or all of the glimpses. And so you can do a huge consciousness journey of unwiring this. problem based self and getting a whole lot of space ⁓ from that and waking up this kind of awareness that Locke's speaking about in the comfort of the hour. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and as you say, you know, in terms of our so it's a funny thing that kinda I recommend I say it. Okay, now since you're on your phone and you don't want to be on your phone and now you're doom scrolling, all right, end by going on your phone to my app, do do a a ⁓ one minute to five minute glimpse and then put down your phone. So so as long as you're on it, you know and you're and you're you're getting a little caught, remember that there's a on your phone is a is a a glimpse practice that can take you into another consciousness and transition you out of your being on your phone and back into your everyday life. So it's kind of a funny a funny thing to to have meditation app ⁓ especially on this l level. speaker-1: I really love that suggestion of just at the end of a horrific session of doom scrolling to do your penance, move across to mindful glimpses. And you know, as as you have often said, small glimpses many times, the object with this work is to just many times a day drop into this kind of awareness through the glimpses, make it a habit and as opposed to the effortful ⁓ aware ⁓ effortful effortful mindfulness of sitting on a cushion and kind of pay ⁓ grappling with your mind and ⁓ and ⁓ repetitive thoughts and intrusive thoughts and so on, you just go to the the app, work with the glimpses, cut through the fog. Because I think that's one of the the feelings of this is a sense of cutting through the fog and kind of waking up to, ⁓ I'm here. Okay. Okay, I'm here. Breaking through the endless narrative and then doing that a lot to train that as a new normal, I want to ask you, let's just say for if we move this into a communication environment, being a human around other human beings, what does moving our awareness out of our habitual contractions, our habitual patterns, what does that look like when you start to bring this kind of awareness into relationships and communication? speaker-0: Yes. Yeah. So, you know, as you say, the you know, and as we kind of walk through this kind of meditation psychology work, you know, there's there is a place for calming the body, there's a place for sitting quietly, closing your eyes, taking some breaths, ⁓ being apart from the world and from activity ⁓ that is traditional or deliberate mindfulness or conventional mindfulness. Then when you learn these glimpses, ⁓ they can be done closed eyes, but most of them can be done open eyed. ⁓ and you can learn which ones you like ⁓ you know, by using my app or something like that, and then make them their own, then you train yourself to to lead yourself through it, ⁓ so that when you're in a social situation ⁓ and you get triggered. you start to realize, ⁓ you know, I'm about to say something. ⁓ wait a minute. That's a part of me that's triggered. ⁓ let me just, as the person's still talking and you're about to say something, you you start to realize, ⁓ wait a minute. Okay, let me just thank that part for being protective. You just it just becomes kind of very quick. I'm talking it through, but it literally step back, open up, f come back to your body, be aware of it, love that part. be open, curious about what the person is actually saying and and what they what part they might be in. Now you can see like, ⁓ they're like really, you know, try have an agenda about wanting me to think this or they feel like they're in a role that I have from my history that is triggering me. So it but they're not actually or they're not actually doing that. They're just being enthusiastic or, you know, strongly opinionated. And I'm like, okay, okay. So now let me respond, you know, to them. Or if they are being, you know, like, you know, you say, well, you know what? I I really let's let's talk about this later because I'm gonna I'm gonna take a break and ⁓ I'll come back to you on that. You know, so you have space to respond from but the key is it's not a strategy of your ego. It literally all of this is about There is another dimension of being or presence that isn't a positive ⁓ quality of your personality. It is the prior dimension of your mind and your identity that got contracted into this small identity. So rather than it being an altered state, we really have to start realizing we're walking around in an altered state. We're w walking around in this mental small mini me and and we can dehypnotize from the trance of the ego and learn to return home to this being that we've always been, that's innocent and intelligent and naturally loving, but actually naturally courageous, could can stand up and say, No. ⁓ actually no, I don't I don't want to Do that, you know, and it'd be very like and person go like, ⁓ okay. And you're like, wow, that was pretty good. I that can't so you start to f feel that there's this ⁓ shift of growing up to this new already installed higher consciousness that isn't just ⁓ a meditative strategy. It's literally the new level like a ba a baby, you're the you know, it still has you the personality nothing's gotten rid of, but you as a baby, you as a teenager, you as a young adult, and then you as this awakened being adult are still have the personality stuff, but the the view and the capacity is completely different. speaker-1: Hmm. Beautiful. Thank you, Locke. Yeah, I think that ultimately that's also in in the work that I share, that is the objective is to start to or to begin with looking at the condition patterns we might have when we walk into a room, whether that's public speaking or with social anxiety, or just most of us ⁓ in relationship. Will walk into a room, walk into a conversation carrying quite thick conditioning about how to be, including facial masks and patterns of conversation and patterns of fawning, or whatever other behavior patterns will bring into the situation. And what you're suggesting, I think you might have used the word naturalness, is this sitting back into s something more. struggled ⁓ to find the right words, not necessarily spacious, but with capacity, presence, awareness that is almost prior to all of that conditioning. And the conditioning exists within it, but it we're not hypnotized by it. We're not looking at everyone else through all of that conditioning. It's a little bit like the conditioning is kind of somewhere down here, operating. It doesn't possess us. So then What are we looking through? I mean it's a strange question, but but who or what are we then if we're not in that conditioning? speaker-0: Yes. Yeah. So the you know, as we were talking about before, it's almost like because our physical body in order to survive has to know its boundaries, its dimensions, and its ⁓ sense of solidity so that it it knows when it bumps into something or something's coming at it, it needs to have this. So we the little ego identity starts to think it is a solid identity. ⁓ thing with a body that actually is using this as a vehicle. So it's like it's now no longer just identify with the body. It's like a little mini me driver like going like, yeah, I'll use this body, I'll move it like this, it'll do like that. But I'm a solid, I have to be solid, nobody can attack me. And I've got to and then this mindful move. Wait a minute, that's not solid. That's a pattern. Then we get subtler. So there is a dimension you have to be ⁓ you know ⁓ familiar and comfortable with more space with a dimension of who we are that isn't that is here now but that being but then the space is also includes the the energy or the thought feeling sensation emotion patterns and form and body. So now we're more in ⁓ almost we've moved from ⁓ solid rock or ⁓ physical animal only to sky and now we come into almost like ocean and wave. So now we're an individual wave but so are you you're a wave and all everyone I'm talking to is a wave and the things in the world is a wave in this ocean there's a sky dimension there's an earth dimension But that now we get into flow. So now there's a dimension where I'm multi-dimensional. There's a physical body here, there's a personality that's happening, there's parts that keep trying to ru you know drive the drive the vehicle, but the dimension of of flow consciousness, which interestingly this, you know, in its traditional form, Chiksent Mahai, who was the researcher who first in this flow consciousness, basically. said there's these dimensions where when you're in flow, you're not using thought based ⁓ self reference. You're in the now. Time either slows down or seems if you're absorbed flow, it kind of you look up, you've just done this amazing work and hours have passed, or when you're in this panoramic flow, which I call it, ⁓ everything slows down, someone's talking and you're like Okay, I know what I'm gonna say. And and it's optimally functioning, it's higher functioning, but it's not thought-based. It has a sense of connection to everyone and everything, to your environment, and there's a a feeling of not self-referencing. So, you know, y most people have experienced this in things they love to do, sports, music. what it what if you could So I have, you know, one of the ⁓ glimpses I do, it's called the memory door, where I say, Well, go to that experience that you love, that you do in your free time, ⁓ which is why do you do what you do in your free time? It's actually to get into awake consciousness, to get into flow. But you don't even know what that is. You think it's about surfing or playing tennis or gardening or walking your dog or playing music. That's the door. To you, not even the qualities that arise, which are fun and freedom and and and playfulness and joy. That's good, but it's the who who you shifted into who and through the door of music or whatever that is, to the qualities, but you st you're still focused on the thing, the person place or thing or activity, or the qualities and But if you once you realize wait a minute, it's because I'm this beingness that's interacting and has open eyed act is active meditation is in in the world. So what if you could sh so the glimpse practices are reverse engineered. All right, let's go to the who and the what. Now let's bring it into activity. So if you're sitting on a subway in New York City and then see somebody on, you know. And go up walk up the stairs and go to work. There's no difference than doing your favorite activity because it's the who that you. speaker-1: I love that. And and and you know, ⁓ every time I think ⁓ a question starts to arise, you start answering it before I I get to utter it. So part of what you expressed there is also part of the promise of doing these micro efforts. What does it feel like to do this this shift? What does it feel like to exist in this slightly different evolved way? Well, very different evolved way. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean it it's a process and it's getting comfortable and familiar with this new ⁓ so there's a there's a unfolding, there's a ⁓ a l you know, a growth ⁓ over time that the habit initially comes back quicker and you you get unconscious about it, and then ⁓ you you you almost have a spontaneous awakening, the first spontaneous awakening is ⁓ I'm caught, ⁓ I'm in a part. ⁓ I'm identified. ⁓ I'm I'm back I'm being, you know, contracted. Whatever that is, you almost have to find a language and ⁓ for that felt sense of like identified, attached, ⁓ shut down, triggered, whatever that is. And then and then ⁓ and there's ⁓ there's a way to there's another way to be. You so you remember that. Then you remember, ⁓ and that and I know the the the different types of glimpses or doorways or shifts that can take me out of this and into the other and then also be with this that is worried or are contracted or triggered. So and then the fourth thing is, okay, so let's do it now. And then the next key is that what does it, and this is where people have gotten caught over forever. is what does it is the awareness. So the awareness unhooks and opens to know itself. So it steps back from the mind and the body and then it looks at itself. So there's so many people, as you mentioned, that get caught in the difficulty concentrating. And there's a whole nother group who have been doing in this more non dual practice, who am I? For and even the guy who wrote the book on it. I just heard an interview with him and he's like, ⁓ yeah, I'm still doing it. You know, it's it you know, hopefully it'll work someday. And I'm like, What? What are you talking about? Like like he keep like we keep trying, I'm not gonna give up on it. So it's like, no, it's gotta be one, two, three. If it's not one, two, three, because not because you're a magician or you're advanced or something, but because the the awareness is right here and that's one potential doorway or shifting method. ⁓ if that doesn't work, there's there's a lot of other ones you can you can try. It doesn't mean because Ramana Maharshi used that, it's the best or the only way. ⁓ so so the key is this awareness has to feel like it knows your body and it feels like it knows itself. So that feeling of the the letting go into not knowing has to be you have to talk to the parts and say, look, we're we're not going to stop here at not knowing, and we're not going to stop here at disembodied, and we're not going to stop at dissociated. We're not going to go to dissociation or to spaced out or to, you know, we're going to come back. You know, Ken Wilbur talks about transcend and include. So that is a beautiful, you know, those you're transcending and the awareness is transcending. So the movement is done, the awareness disidentifies and either steps back like when we did that, what ⁓ what's here now and there's no problem, the problem solver relaxed and then the awareness had to know itself. Or it comes forward and the other way to do it ⁓ is your awareness unhooks from thought and then like a bubble of awareness that can drop and feel your body from within. So it can feel your jaw from your jaw, feel your throat from your throat, it can drop into the subtlest dimension of your physical body, your energy body, your awareness body, then open and then include. But what has moved either way isn't me concentrating from here going there. It isn't pulling the observer back. It's this this new so this is what's the new thing brought from contemplative world that isn't on the philosophical or psychological methods. of the West is awareness has to ⁓ can move. You don't have to move it. The the awareness can move itself and r and find itself, return to itself, and then include everything. So that that feeling that's so odd because it's also it has to be palpable even though it's invisible. In other words, you can feel the awareness of the space in the room and the awareness of itself, even though it's not with the five senses, there's kind of a a feeling of clarity, openness, so these other kind of feelings, light, ⁓ and then feel like the intention to be curious or include or be i is not be no longer being done by the thinker. So that this this we've just kind of discovered, you know, this which is, you know, like so hard to describe that I'm trying to describe. It has to be experienced, but it's what it's when w like I'm talking, I'm not talking when I w to when I give a glimpse instruction, I'm not talking to you, the thinker, the personality, the will, the doer, or your attention. I'm talking to you the already awake awareness. And I'm asking you I'm saying, like, look, we're already have this dimension. So you, not you, you I'm talking to you, I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to this. Can you let go of that or can you unhook and feel like your awareness can move, open out of the cloud to discover the space and then to mingle with the already awake spacious awareness? That's always been here and has been waiting for you to return, or but it isn't the thing about it is why don't people awaken? It's because the neutral awareness is it's already here and it it kind of like I'm already including everything. Like I I I'm not motivated for you to get it, which is the weird thing. But the heart's desire when you have a taste. So it's what that's what kind of motivates people. It's more like the what what is the ultimate final destination of what's called bodhicitta or open hearted awareness or loving presence that that's like, ⁓ my God, if this is really real and possible, what else am I going to do with my life? That's that's what I felt when I got this first ⁓ glimpses. I was like, ⁓ my God. God, this is so amazing. This is what I've been looking for and everything. I was, you know, young enough to say, like, okay, I don't know how to proceed. I'm not gonna join a monastery, but I'm gonna I'm gonna be curious and see how this all unfolds and whether it's possible and whether it's real. And I wasn't a joiner. I wasn't, I was very didn't want to be in a cult, I didn't want to be in a You know, religion, I didn't w I was just like, all right, I'm gonna use the scientific method of internal, you know, investigation without being too mental, just try to let it show it and eventually what it feels like it it shows itself to itself. speaker-1: Yeah, th that was a a a powerful little session, mini session there. I wanna urge our our listeners to actually start again, watch the whole thing, but don't try and process anything Locke is saying with your mind. So don't try and grok it, ⁓ if I just get this next concept, I'll get it. Let yourself just kind of imbibe it, let it flow across like water, because he's putting out a whole ⁓ whole thing But not at the level of the mind. As you say, this is not actually something that one can process and understand and get. It's more of a releasing into something that seemingly is so obvious, it's there already, but gets masked by our hypnotized focus on the mind. And he just put out ⁓ kilowatts of of of lovely material there for the awareness to wake up. That was ⁓ delicious. I did ask you a question which was which I'd still love you to answer, which is what is it like to live as this? How is it different now? speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, I was trying to say, you know, kind of give the the map of how it is in terms of consciousness, ⁓ how how you get caught and learn to return. So it's not a you know, having met many people who you j who have genuinely, you know, kind of are in the unfolding, there's nobody who's done. There's nobody who's like just steady state, you know, because it's not a state. Because everything's changing and the and there's this dance of consciousness going on. So it's always kind of a dance. ⁓ but the the foundation of of the trust and the knowing ⁓ starts to become you know, shows up by itself without attempting to do it and and always has a little background, kind of almost what they call in ⁓ ⁓ in Tibetan Buddhism and they call it grandma grandmother awareness. So it's almost like this loving loving presence, like you're okay. You're okay, sweetheart. You're you're you're a little crazy. You're you you you got caught inside. It's okay. It's all right. Don't worry about it. You're not it's not it's not so bad. Just don't hurt yourself or anybody else. It's all right. Just keep keep from acting. You can anything going on inside is okay. We'll we'll we we'll we'll handle that. But it's that almost that feeling of ⁓ existential okayness, like everything's okay. And yet then almost like a feeling of like, okay, so then let's live this human life. Let's show up. Let's let's let's be engaged. Let's not so it's not this everything's okay, so I'm gonna s join a monastery, sit on a couch, ⁓ be a you know, like it it's like enthusiasm, interest, because there's almost like a fearlessness of you know, to be with the social anxiety part, to be with the the part that feels it gets triggered and hurt by people who are kind of similar to the ones who hurt us ⁓ that as we engage in the world. There's there's like, okay, here we go, let's go let's go show up. And then there's a a choice, you know, like the choosing is happening. I could do this or I could do that. I could do anything. But let's see. Okay, so I ⁓ I'm, you know, have to make a plan in three weeks in order to, you know, let people know I could do this, I could do that. Okay, well let's do this. And then you step through the door and either way, i it's okay. Now you have these other other choices that are revealed. And ⁓ you know, I'll just say, I mean, a lot of I don't I don't kind of talk about myself so much, but ⁓ like during COVID, ⁓ I guess two things. One is that I had long COVID, so I had these kind of extreme symptoms for o almost well, over a little over two years where I could I'd wake up in the morning and like my shoulders and legs, the nerve endings wouldn't fire. So I would be like I couldn't even stand. And I couldn't breathe. I c I had to stop doing exercise. I had brain fog. I'd have blood pressure go up and down, I'd have ⁓ energy drain would be just like okay, you know, which you know everyone has to some degree like four o'clock in the afternoon or you know, late at night, but it would be just like a battery, just like and then just like this pain, you know, so I had to be with this body and this I was like, I don't know if this will ever go away and, you know, did all the things of of the the you know, had these these great physicians and alternative health and throwing all these vitamins and, you know, treatments in there and nothing helped until they went away. But being with it, like w the brain fog thing. was like, I can't remember what I'm supposed to be teaching about something and I gotta so all right, well you then you better not operate from this mind because the mind is you better shift into the awareness. And then I just like okay and I just start talking and I'd be like, well, whatever this guy's saying is pretty good, but I'm not sure what he's talking about. But but it but it just trusting that the awareness is happening ⁓ and organizing from flow and that it made me not be able to use the the small self and the and so it reinforced that as and being more loving toward myself as I couldn't function and my wife, you know, would be like ready to go on a hike and I'd go ahead, you know, enjoy yourself. Find a friend, you know, I'll see you or I'll go part way or and the other thing is we just had, you know, Paige, my wife and I, just during those years of being like isolated in our we just had the best time. We be so became so much more loving and we had so much fun and our whole our relationship just grew ⁓ you know more beautiful and and ⁓ we, you know, had these talks and these laughing and playfulness and ⁓ you know, being kind of thrown into isolation. It just actually made it better. speaker-1: Beautiful. Hmm. So you've described this foundation of kind of fundamental okayness, a background hug from a kind of a grandmother awareness, which I I think is a beautiful metaphor. Kind of holding us in our crazy and all our beauty and and from that capacity there's this potential to go out and engage with the world and contribute and really live and live a real human life. ⁓ What does it look like, or what might it look like if this happened at scale with lots and thousands and millions of humans? How would it be different from where we are at this precarious place right now? What do you hope for? speaker-0: Yeah, well I mean it would be beautiful and you know this is why I'm you know one drop in the ocean at a time just continuing to explore and ⁓ you know g try to offer and and fine tune these tools of ⁓ consciousness and learn from students about what works, what doesn't work and offer and just then let it go. Because how fast or quickly, you know, the hundredth monkey will you know is the hope that there'll be some hundredth monkey because the the volume of it, the slow the slowness of you know, one person at a time, you know, forty people during a retreat out of eighty, you know, really have a amazing experience and start and you know, then say, you know, great, other people have fun, but then they're like I got interested in something else and I ⁓ you know something else happened and ⁓ you know I I I what what was it what was it that was so good five years ago that that was I r I remember we had it was something I realized but I can't remember. ⁓ so it's you know, it will ⁓ hopefully unfold and kinda all we can do is is ⁓ be true and and have integrity and ⁓ try to find that loving presence that we are and respond to ourself and our own parts and others in a way that that starts to resonate. And, you know, developmentally I think it it is important to have to know that there's this next stage of human development and to see if people can discover it and, you know, spend the the next time. There's not as much ⁓ clarity and teaching on the once you have that initial awakening how to how to l live it and stabilize. So that's kind of where I'm focused. I'm, you know, the latest my latest thing after developing the app and having these, you know, online and live retreats is I've been doing a training program for helping professionals. So I had 180 people in the first cohort from nineteen different countries ⁓ to because I thought well helping professionals are are engaging with so many people in a in a way that they're they're teaching ⁓ and they're all these different there's forty different helping professionals. It's not just therapists and coaches and meditation teachers, yoga teachers, ministers, you know, ⁓ body workers. ⁓ then they add this effortless mindfulness and then hopefully it can ⁓ you know be passed on in a way that is different and resonant and particular to the helping professional and to the people who are learning it so they can find their own way. speaker-1: Right. So seeding it out that way is kind of efficient. The the app is efficient. I really just want to re-recommend the app for anyone interested in this work. Just get stuck in. I think there's all the tools you need and all the glimpses you need to as as Locke said, to stabilize. Well, first to wake up this experience of of a of this type of awake awareness, you could call it, and then to learn how to stabilize it, to do the small glimpses many times. So that it eventually becomes a a stable form of experience and one lives outside of the hijacked narrative of one's mind or or or less hijacked. And the promise is less reactivity, more space, ⁓ a kind of a more loving awareness, ⁓ greater capacity, and I think a kind of an effortless natural spontaneity where one is incredibly human and Emotions are felt and shared, but I I would say there's the potential for a huge amount of human health in it. We still have to do the work of cleaning up our psychological parts and our reactivity and our trauma. All of that work still needs to be done. But this provides this kind of s loving substrate, like a deep potential and clarity for engaging with life naturally and I think really beautifully. And so I'm so grateful for your work. Thank you so much. speaker-0: Right. Thank you, Jeremy. Yeah, that's beautifully said, yeah. speaker-1: Well, thank you for this time together. Yeah. I feel really blessed to have spent this time. And ⁓ thank you for sharing your work. ⁓ you know, as I said earlier in the podcast, I I I've attended multiple retreats of Locke's and part of what I came to do when I I came to work with Locke, I I I literally use the word stabilize and to really stabilize the experience of this this call it awareness. And I think he offers the most coherent package you can possibly find for stabilizing in this. So I cannot recommend his work enough and he ⁓ it it's a a deep blessing on the planet. So thank you so much. speaker-0: Yeah, thank you, Jeremy. Such a blessing to be with you and so much fun as always.