Latest / Marci talks money (and life) / Agriculture, Money, and Legal Challenges with Jillian Hishaw
Transcript
- Marci Grossman (01:00) Hello, I am MoneyMarci, welcome. I am thrilled to welcome today's guest, Jillian Hishaw. Jillian is the founder of FARMS, Family Agriculture Resource Management Services, a national agricultural nonprofit, and Hishaw Law, a bankruptcy practice that operates in North Carolina and Wyoming. Jillian is a passionate, dynamic, and results-driven legal professional with extensive public and private experience the areas of agricultural law, asset protection, and innovation. Over the past 20 years, FARMS has saved nearly $25 million in farmland assets, purchased and donated over 3.5 million pounds of fresh produce in five countries, and has provided over $500,000 to U.S. family farms in emergency situations. Jillian possesses persuasive abilities to advocate for clients in various capacities related to predatory lending matters, compliance, and environmental illegalities. Author of award-winning "Agriculture Blockchain and Crypto", "Don't Bet the Farm on Medicaid", "50 State Farm Tax Credits of the US", as well as numerous other books and legal publications, she has gotten her clients impactful results. She has been featured in Realtor.com, Oprah Magazine, Seniors.com, and many other publications. In 2024, Jillian was interviewed on the Kelly Clarkson show. Welcome, Jillian. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (02:48) Thank you, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Marci Grossman (02:51) Well, I'm so excited to talk to you. How did you get here? Creating farms, law school, and a focus on bankruptcy. That sounds like an interesting journey. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (03:01) Yes, it's been quite, quite fascinating. Yeah, so my grandfather was raised on a farm in Oklahoma. And when he relocated to Kansas City, which is where I'm originally born and raised, he and my great grandmother hired a lawyer to pay the property tax. But unfortunately, the lawyer stole the money and the land and the homestead was sold in a tax lien sale without notice being given to my family. And so that just propelled and encouraged me more to get into agricultural law specifically and to represent particularly aging family farms owners and help them basically retain and secure their property. Marci Grossman (03:48) Family farms, I mean, it doesn't get any American than that. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (03:52) Yeah, true, true, true. Marci Grossman (03:55) And I guess from that, that's how you got into the bankruptcy focus and that because of the way it relates to family farms and the liens. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (04:04) Yes, yes, and I did in 2004, the fall semester, I did the bankruptcy clinic at University of Arkansas in Fayetteville, that's where I attended law school, during my last year. And I just became more interested in bankruptcy. And then the following year when I did my legal masters in agricultural law, there was a whole semester focused on Chapter 12 bankruptcy, which is only designated for farmers and fishermen because there's a total of six chapters, at least that I know of, of bankruptcy and Chapter 12 was very distinct and it was created in the 80s during the farm crisis. Marci Grossman (04:45) I'm most familiar with seven and 13 and I guess 11. All these different bankruptcy types affect, I guess, different people, different situations, different entities. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (05:02) Yes, so chapter nine is filed by municipalities like a county or city of, I don't know, Charlotte or something along those lines. And then as you mentioned, chapter 11 is for corporations. And then chapter 15 are for foreign corporations like Alibaba that need to file a bankruptcy here in the U.S. but they're based in Asia. And then 12 is for farmers and fishermen. And then seven, you have to qualify. So you have to be low income, living below the federal poverty level to qualify for a seven, which is mostly advertised and people know of. You file it, you know, one day and within three months, the debt is all removed. But if you don't qualify for a seven, then you'll shimmy over to a 13. Or if you're trying to stop the foreclosure of your home, which is notably known for then you'll follow chapter 13. Marci Grossman (06:03) And that's why it's so important if you are looking at serious debt and you've got to be considering bankruptcy that you go to someone that really knows the ins and outs and bankruptcy so that they can help you file the right type for your situation in the correct manner. Please remember while we are having these conversations about legal topics, we are not in any way giving legal advice. Despite Jillian being an attorney, if you are looking you need to talk to someone who is a licensed professional to deal with your issues in your location and has the competency and the information to give legal advice. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (06:50) Correct, correct. Because even if you qualify for a 7 but you have too much equity in your home that exceeds the exemption amount, you'll have to be forced to file a 13. Marci Grossman (07:03) Right now, which is the bankruptcy where you say you'll pay everything off and if everything's perfect, it's great, but if not, you end up having to give away even more? Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (07:14) Well, I think you're thinking of a 13, which it's a five-year payment plan. But is you don't have to pay everything off. For example, I have current clients that are on a 2 percent payment plan, meaning that they only have to pay back 2 percent of what they owe their creditors. Let's say you owe 100K and you are basically barely making ends meet, you bring in $5,000 in income, $4,900 in expenses, only $100 is left, then you're placed on a 2 % income plan. And so 2 % of $100K is $2,000 stretched out over a five-year period. After you've made successful payments over that five years, the remaining $98,000 is just written off at the end of that five-year term. So realistically, you don't have to pay back everything. Marci Grossman (08:15) And people are able to successfully manage that and get through that five-year period? Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (08:20) Not all the time. It's like 30 to 40 % have a five year duration, but it, but at times it is 50 50, but it just, it just depends on the circumstances because five years is a long time to, you know, really dictate, Oh, I'm going to pay this amount for five years when, you could lose your job or you could get sick. So there's so many different factors that may happen. Marci Grossman (08:51) Right, yeah, five years is one of those times that it's like, yeah, five years, no big deal, I can do that standing on my head, and yet five years is also a long time to not have any of life's challenges come at you. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (09:07) Exactly, exactly. Marci Grossman (09:10) And you also deal with Medicaid and nursing home liens. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (09:15) Yes, yes. So I wrote several books, but I'm updating it right now. This is the sixth edition that came out last year. And I originally published it in April, May of 2018. And every year I update it because, of course, Medicaid updates July 1st of every year, their income limitations to qualify for Medicaid per state. So I wrote that book and I did lobby on the Hill to change state policy regarding Medicaid liens because people don't realize when you go into a nursing home or rehab facility, if you owe a debt to that facility, that facility has the federal, not only state, authority to put a lien on your house or even your car if you're in an expanded Medicaid-lien state like Maryland. So it's very important that you protect your assets within a trust prior to qualifying for Medicaid. Marci Grossman (10:23) Yeah, I think it's so hard for people to understand all the rules of Medicaid, all the financial rules of going into a nursing home, and then add to it the rules change every year. If not the rules, then at least the numbers and the thresholds. so difficult for people, not just to understand mentally but in terms of implementing those changes and making sure that you stay on the right side of that line continually. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (10:51) Exactly, because unfortunately there is a five-year look back period with Medicaid. So if you put your home in a trust and you put it in trust in 2020, but you need to go into a care facility in 2022, then you are prohibited from qualifying for Medicaid for another three years because of the five-year look back period. And so they think from their perspective that you're hiding assets and so you have to pay out of pocket for those three years and then you'll qualify after that probation. So yes, it's very strategic in how you do it. Marci Grossman (11:32) What happens if you have money and you're not hiding it, but you don't necessarily have enough for those three years? Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (11:40) You have to figure it out. Unfortunately. What you can do is that if you have a sibling and they don't own a home, they can come and be your caregiver for two years and then that'll protect your home and then the home will automatically be exempt and it'll go to your brother or your sister. And if so, if you owe a debt to a care provider, you won't be on the hook because the two years prior your sibling was your caregiver. Marci Grossman (12:15) I'm not sure I would trust either of my siblings to care for me. They might unplug my refrigerator and call it a day. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (12:19) or You could also do your children also apply. It's your siblings or your kids. The problem here is that we also have 26 states that have a filial laws, meaning that state law dictates that you are basically responsible for their care. And if you don't take care of them, then you will be financially liable. And that's listed in the book as well at the last page. So these are all of the states regarding the filial laws and due to the budget cuts in July of last year, I believe that more states are going to enforce those laws since now they're carrying more of the brunt of Medicaid expenses. Marci Grossman (13:11) And that's important to remember that some of these rules are federal, some of these rules are state, and so it's really important to get the expertise you need for the location that you are at. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (13:16) Yes. Correct, correct. And so things are definitely ⁓ all strategy. Marci Grossman (13:33) So you mentioned you'd been to the Hill and the speaking that you've done and your books have gotten published in some pretty impressive locations and you were on the Kelly Clarkson show. That's a lot of high profile exposure. How did you end up on the TV show? I did see the interview. I looked it up online. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (13:55) Great. Yeah. The producer just contacted me. I think she read an article or something somewhere and a couple of months went by and she contacted me a couple of days before the show. Hey, can you come, you know, know, five days? And I was like, sure, sure. And so they flew me out, which was nice and interviewed me and a dairy farmer, Scarlett, that I've been helping for the past seven years. And yeah, it was great. So Scarlett got grant money and then we were able to help other farmers with the grant money as well. Marci Grossman (14:36) That's amazing the exposure that happens. Because family farms in the U.S. it's so important. If you have local, farmers markets that come around town. I love to go to the local farmers markets. The produce couldn't be fresher, the people couldn't be nicer. And if you haven't gone to farmers markets around you, you've got to check them out. You don't know what you're missing. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (15:03) Exactly, exactly. It's definitely needed in these days and times, especially with corporate farms just, you know, growing the bulk of the produce. Marci Grossman (15:12) Right, absolutely, absolutely. So we talked a little bit about bankruptcy. What is foreclosure? How is foreclosure different than bankruptcy? Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (15:25) Well, foreclosure occurs, as we all know, when you cannot afford to pay your mortgage. And so what will happen is that the bank or whatever lender will state to the debtor, if you don't pay by X, Y, and Z amount, then we're going to foreclose on your property. And so then they'll file a foreclosure notice. They'll have 60 days which is called pre-foreclosure. So they'll have 60 days before the foreclosure sale to get things in order. So say you receive the notice on December 1, then you have until, February 1 will be the sale. So you have 60 days to pay to get your payments current or to file a Chapter 13 to stop the foreclosure sale. Marci Grossman (16:17) Okay, so they're related and the one can help with the other, but obviously you want to try and avoid both if you can. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (16:22) Yes. Yes, if you can, of course. Marci Grossman (16:28) What should people know about Medicaid and nursing home liens? Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (16:33) So it sort of goes back. It acts like in a way similar to foreclosure where they will put a lien on your home. And it depends on if you're living in a pre-death or a post-death state. So if you're in a pre-death state, they will foreclose on your property while you're living and while you're still an occupant in a nursing or even a rehab care facility. And so I have had farmers that were living in a pre-death state and they were in the nursing home and the nursing home foreclosed, you know, put a lien and sold the property while the farmer was still living, unfortunately. And so it definitely depends on the state that you're living in. So for example, Iowa is very aggressive when it comes to Medicaid liens. And as well as Massachusetts used to be one of the top one or two states with Medicaid liens for like 10, 20 years. But in 2024, they reverted back to being less aggressive and the legislation changed. And now they're a limited estate recovery. And so you have limited and you have expanded, you have pre-death, you have post-death. Post-death, the sale happens after... Again, pre is during your lifetime. Expanded is when they will not only foreclose on your real property, but they will take your car, they'll take your furniture, they will take your costume jewelry. Limited is that they'll only take your real property. And so, you know, definitely you want to be in a limited state if you can, you know, at least you could sleep in your car. ⁓ But, you know, Maryland used to be a limited state, but, you know, I think in 2023, 2024, they changed over to an expanded state. so it just, you know, states go back and forth between expanded and limited at times, but they will take your real property. And so in 2018, when I was on the Hill, I visited North Carolina and Georgia Senate offices and the staffers weren't really aware of Medicaid liens, particularly in the Georgia office that I visited. And that next year they had changed the law in Georgia. Now I don't know if it was because of the book that I gave them and the visit, but it was the way that they changed it, was way better for the property owner. And so now in the state of Georgia, at least last I checked, hopefully they haven't changed it, where it used to be they would sell, all of the land, so say you have 10 acres, they would sell the 10 acres and now it's prorated. So say you owe $10,000 to the nursing home and you have 10 acres and each acre is worth a thousand dollars. Well, if you owe, let's say $2,000 to the nursing home, they'll only sell the two acres and leave you with the eight. And so that's way better than selling the whole pie, you know, and just leaving with the crumbs. So. Marci Grossman (20:01) I've never heard that before, selling the pie and leaving with the crumbs. I like that. And with the five-year look back, so you have to know ahead of time you're going to have problems before you give your farm to your kids. And back to five years can be a really long time to know that. What about if it was a co-ownership? Let's say I'm getting older and no idea what the future holds. I've now made a co-owner of my child and now I find myself in a nursing home not having the cash does that co-ownership impact anything? Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (20:41) It depends on the type. So there's what's called tenants in common or farmers call it heirs property where there's the mother and the father bought the property, but they died without a will. And then, you know, they had 10 kids, the 10 kids share the farm, equally. And then generations later, it's like a hundred heirs sharing the farm. Now, if you're an heirs property owner, you can still qualify for Medicaid without being penalized because you really don't own much there. But if you are a co-owner with your child, then it depends on the worth or the market value of that property. I would suggest you just do a life estate because you can still qualify for Medicaid with a life estate. Now I'm definitely not a Medicaid expert, I just focus on estate recovery. But I do know that you can qualify for a life estate and a life estate is basically, I'll live in the home, I'll live on the land until I die, something along those lines. So you really don't have an ownership value in the property any longer. And that allows you to still qualify for Medicaid. And you could still age in place, you know, you could still qualify for Medicaid and have a home care attendant come under Medicaid and be paid under Medicaid. I know that there's several people that take care of their parents and they get paid monthly, like a thousand to two thousand a month from Medicaid just taking care as a caregiver you can get paid ⁓ under Medicaid. And so those are, definitely ways to still age in place in your home and qualify for Medicaid. Marci Grossman (22:33) That is good to know. Tell me more about FARMS. How would people access the services? How would people support it? What can they do to help our farmers? Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (22:46) Sure, so you can definitely go to protectfarms.org or 30,000acres.org. They're all under the same web address. And we've been in operation for nearly 13 years. August of 2013 is when we started. And we have three different programs. So the one program we used to do, primarily me used to do pro bono legal services, but that has been transitioned over fully into education because I just can't do pro bono forever. And so we primarily just focus on education. So workshops, books, all those things, we still do provide money to farmers that are dealing with legal issues so through the farmer's emergency fund. So if you have a legal challenge, we'll give you money partially to pay the lawyer. We also help with natural disaster relief. So we do repairs, give out generators, waters during natural disasters, tornadoes, floods, know, what have you. And then we also cover funeral expenses for farmers, medical. We just paid travel expenses and medication for a rancher that's dealing with a medical issue. So, you name it, it covers it from equipment repair. We just gave out last week to a farmer commodity crop farmer here in North Carolina to property tax, which we have paid for it for a farmer in California. And we've given out about $500,000. And then our last program is our Farms to Food Bank program, which operates internationally. We've been working in Sierra Leone for nearly six, seven years. And we basically purchase produce from small farmers, and then it's all donated to our food bank partners, nursing homes, orphanages. So for example, in Sierra Leone, we feed about 250 kids each month and we purchase produce from only women farmers in Foindu Village in Sierra Leone. Marci Grossman (25:03) That's amazing. That's tremendous what you've done here. Jillian, before we wrap up, is there anything you want to mention that maybe we haven't covered? Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (25:12) Oh yes, that you can definitely get rid of student loans now by filing bankruptcy. So whether it's a seven or a 13, it's not guaranteed, but it is the second part of the bankruptcy process. So you'll come to a bankruptcy lawyer, file the petition, and then once we file the petition, we'll file a form to the Department of Justice. We'll wait six to nine months to see if it's approved, and it has an 87 % approval rating right now. As of 2025, it was reported in January of this year that the rate was 87%. And so, you know, there is a high likelihood of approval and you can get rid of those student loans. If you file a 13, then under the 13, you don't have to pay. You're basically in forbearance for five years. So if you are in a public service career like a nurse or a teacher, or you work for a nonprofit like me, you can take those five years and it'll be in forbearance. And then under the public service program, which is 10 years, you'll just have the remaining five years after that bankruptcy to pay on it and it'll be forgiven. So it cuts it down in half. So that's something to think about. Marci Grossman (26:37) Wow, that's new. I didn't think that student loans were covered there. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (26:41) Yes, it's a new program. It was November of 2022 when it came into effect. Marci Grossman (26:48) Well, that's good to know. I'm sure a lot of people will appreciate hearing that. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (26:52) Yes. Marci Grossman (26:52) Jillian, thank you so much for being my guest today. taking the time to join us here. Jillian Hishaw, Esq. (26:57) Thank you so much for having me. I hope all this information was resourceful. Marci Grossman (27:01) It was amazing. And to my listeners, I will be sharing a link to Jillian's information in the show notes. Please check her out and FARMS of course. There's a lot of interesting information. And don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review and stay tuned. I'll see you next time. This has been MoneyMarci on Marci Talks Money (and Life). You got this.