Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / The Nine's Courage | Peace, Fairness & Finding Your Voice with Deanna Sudom

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The Nine's Courage | Peace, Fairness & Finding Your Voice with Deanna Sudom · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast, the Enneagram for Real Life.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Here is where you'll find conversations where faith meets story and strategy for lasting transformation.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Amy Wicks, here to help you find wisdom and wholehearted rhythms for moments that matter most.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you're learning your type or deepening your spiritual formation, these conversations will remind you that the Enneagram shines a light, but Christ is the transformation.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: I am so excited to begin this nine-month journey through the Enneagram one type at a time.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: So today I am going to start with the Enneagram type 9.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I've invited my friend, co-teacher, spiritual director, and wholehearted coach, Deanna Sudam, to help me share what we all need to know about the Enneagram 9 and how specifically spiritual formation meets this Enneagram type's journey.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: So even if you're not an Enneagram 9, this conversation is going to help you understand yourself and someone you love because we've all been in that experience before or lived in a way where we silence our voice to keep the peace.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Or we've wondered if what we really want matters or if it's worthwhile to state what matters to us.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: So with that, we're going to dive right in here with our first question today.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Deanna, thank you for joining me and sharing about the Enneagram 9.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: What we want to talk about first is when you think about the Type 9, what comes to your mind about that personality and even maybe their struggle?
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, the first thing that comes to mind to me is the besides the peace that they bring, I believe they carry, it's often their built-in like a fairness factor that they have.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Being able to see all sides of a story.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think that they would probably make the best mediators because it's just that's a phrase I hear often from them is not fair, not fair.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Let's look at all sides of the stories, you know.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so all the viewpoints are valid according to them, usually.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I've heard once actually they make great judges because they can just see from all sides of the story and be fair in the outcome of it.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so that really intrigues me in that space for them about the positive traits of them.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like they just carry a natural peace wherever they go, even if internally, I often hear them say too that they'll be like they feel like a duck, you know, they're paddling like crazy underwater, but they might have this appearance of calm.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: But that still comes through.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like the Lord has given them that gift for sure.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's almost like this mantle of ease that they bring into a space.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you've probably been asked a similar question.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: You go to a dinner party or you're hanging out with friends, and the conversation starts turning to Enneagram.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if I'm one of the Enneagram coaches in the room, it's pretty quick, like, what type do you think I am?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, those questions are, what do you think this person?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And while I would never tell anyone their type, and it usually involves a very deep conversation that we don't necessarily settle on anything.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: I have often experienced being able to discern who's an Enneagram 9 just by this ease and this presence that they bring that's very distinct, again, in my experience of the Enneagram 9.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I would agree with that for sure.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: We could talk a little bit about even uh what their core fears and core desires are, because I know that what they are actually flies in the face of what we get from them.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things their core fear being conflict or disconnection, or one word I heard was that is a great description is fragmented, that they have this fear of being fragmented in who they are and being overlooked.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: So they try and run away from those things in their core desire.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: They desire the peace and the harmony and the belonging and the voice, all the things that they have either numbed or allowed to be spoken over or allowed to be forgotten.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And but it is really at the core of their desire, I believe.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think about that?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: The harmony and again, let's bring this calm presence, let's get rid of the chaos.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I experience nines desiring that, and when that doesn't happen, often a nine going internally to get a sense of that calm, to avoid the chaos in order to be able to operate and maintain a sense of presence in that.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes it's really difficult because they're able to feel that, but maybe their loved ones who are around them kind of sense the disconnection in those moments.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it definitely is definitely a mode of operation for a nine for sure.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, there's so many things about the nine that we're going to cover in this month.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that you highlighted a couple of the core fear: conflict, disconnection, being overlooked, their core desires being for peace, harmony, belonging, value, not feeling fractured, as you said.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: So as we're talking more this month, I think that our friend listening will be able to hear even other different traits that are going to show up in a client's story, or even with some other coaches as we explore the nine.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to hear from you, Deanna, because your work as a wholehearted coach, you really emphasize the spiritual formation, spiritual direction.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you see or how would you articulate how an Enneagram type nine experiences God?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is a great question.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think that I see them often because they're created as a gut type, in being able to move in creation and experience God in creation that way.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: I believe that's one way that they really show up, being able to move their bodies.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And they often have this felt sense of knowing God.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: I've talked to people who doubt that maybe they hear him or they're not hearing him right as a type nine.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I really think when it comes right down to it, they have just this, they know.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's this knowing that God is with them, that they have this knowing in their gut and just uh even how they experience him as a felt presence.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Often it will be through, you know, worship or worshiping in creation or in when they're in the middle of doing all of that movement with their bodies.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so I believe that they can sense that moving into those places restores their peace and their balance and their calm.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where God's gonna meet them, usually outside doing hikes or you know, some kind of interaction with nature for sure.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: I saw that kind of epiphany for me when my husband was exploring his type and when he landed on the nine, and the more I learned about that connection with nature and being outside, I go, it makes complete sense.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: He became an arborist, and that is his ongoing field of study and career.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: But all the types get stuck in some way.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say to the elements where they tend to get stuck?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: What does that maybe look like?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's different for everybody.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just clarify everybody's nuanced and unique.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: But what would be some commonalities with the nine?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: I believe that almost every nine I've talked to in some way or another says that they think they're lazy.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that does appeal to the, you know, the false script that they do here or the weakness in them, the slothfulness is how we usually describe it.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think they get stuck and slothful about their pursuit of transformation.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: It comes in a space where it requires them to engage and to be moving towards something to actually not numb out, but to be present and to be aware.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so I believe that is one space where they they kind of just push against that because it's easier to maybe sit on the couch and watch TV or listen to books or read books and then not have to deal with the conflict even within them of trying to get to that place of peace for themselves.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're hinting at something I'm really excited for, Meredith, my Enneagram 9 client that we'll be sharing this month.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: But we did a lot of work around stubbornness.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you just alluded to it because hint stubbornness is not the word, first word that comes to mind when we think about an Enneagram 9, but it is a big word to work through.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you illustrate some of that right there.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'd love to hear though, do you have an example of a nine that you've walked with or that you've experienced in like in any of this, these areas in general?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: I actually have had a few nine clients and one just quite recently who um she's kind of in this season of empty nesting and trying to establish what that looks like with um her life, maybe pieces of it that she's avoided, numb to her own present.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I believe that God's awakening this desire in her to know more, to have more awareness, and possibly because of the season, the space is there to do it a little bit more.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: But she's always kind of heard just be the good little Christian girl and don't ruffle feathers and hide out, and don't we're not talking through emotions, just it is what it is, and just keep going and it's gonna be okay.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I but I'm seeing her awaken to the fact that she discovers that she hides from conflict a lot because she doesn't want to break connection, and so in that knowing, she um is learning to trust that she has already established a relationship with this person and that she can trust that connection is there, even if it's just like these tiny little steps where she's kind of taken her hands off to not have the full-on, kind of immersed connection that she maybe has already or has always had in a particular relationship with her child for sure.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: And but she's learning to trust that okay, I have done what I could do, I've done my best, and I can trust that the connection is there, and it's not gonna lose just because there's conflict or or something is even in their the way that they're living their life to try and just establish adulthood and do what they're going to do, right?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's gotta be just watching her blossom in that, it's pretty beautiful.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I and then even her appearance, like her appearance is different, and yeah, it's showing on on her face, even as she as she moves in that direction.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: You highlight a story that I think is familiar to many types, but it looks different, and that is codependency.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Very easy to suddenly become aware of as we're launching our children.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe we've launched our children, but they're moving further away, they're growing more independent, they're getting married, having their own kids, all those different elements.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so this piece is very distinct for each type because it's going to hit on our core fears uniquely.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: So for her to have that knowing that she's still valuable and maybe even worthy of her role, even if it doesn't look the same way, wow, that's huge for an Enneagram nine.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's big.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's pretty big for sure.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're excited to see.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if you heard Deanna talk about this and it feels familiar, just know you're not alone because uh Deanna and I would both say we're we're working with a lot of women who are in this boat.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Again, all those transitions, they're going to hit on our core fears.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: We think that we've like solved them, fixed them.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: They're not an issue anymore because we dealt with them in one chapter of life.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, guess what?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Any sort of transit transition, it's going to resurrect some of that.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: So this is normal and it's and it's good to just be made aware.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, this is one more piece that ultimately it gets us more connected and interconnected with Christ and a relationship there where we can be wholly dependent.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: And God loves that.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: I uh you're our word gal, not only with word words because you love words, but you love the word of God.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I would, I'm curious to know what scripture or practices that you often give to help anchor the nine, whether they're going through big change or they're just learning to come into themselves of I can, I can engage with chaos, I can engage with conflict, I can even be disruptive in this moment because I'm confident of who I am in Christ or what the Lord has a say for me.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of scripture, there's a lot of words to help.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: But what's something that you've offered in your practice for coaching a nine?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: I this scripture came actually when I was getting ready for a time together, and it's in Joshua, and it took me by surprise a little bit.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I believe that I believe God's calling out the boldness in nines and their engagement that we need it in this world.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: We need their overview of like, I see all what's happening, but I think this is the way to go, you know.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so the scripture is Joshua 1, 7 to 9 says, Be strong and very courageous.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Keep this book of the law always on your lips, meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Then you will be prosperous and successful.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Have I not commanded you be strong and courageous, do not be afraid, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that is a great promise for everybody, honestly.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, 100%.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: If this is something that a nine can claim, um, one of the things that I really speak to them about is naming what's happening.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Say it out loud.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Don't just let it spin around in there, and then be bold with your voice with a safe person.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it's good.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to start practicing this with just anybody, but choose one little piece, whether it doesn't have to be a conflict, even just a conversation, even a decision of where to go for supper or what you want to buy for groceries, like just one place where you haven't been bold before, to try it out in those places where you know that you can trust that the relationship is connected and the dance might change and they might be kind of looking at you cross-eyed.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, there's there's safety there, right?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And there's there's the ability to move into that decision and be confident that God's leading you.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's usually one act.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that would be an action piece that people can take is just okay, how can you do that?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Who could be your safe person?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't have that, then start there, start establishing with us a person that you could possibly do try that out with that.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh you and I love a practice of Lectio and Lectio Divina, which is looking over scripture, breathing through it, reading it aloud, letting it be read over you.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is one of those opportunities, even maybe pause here and rewind it a minute to listen to Deanna read a Joshua one passage.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was Joshua one, seven through nine.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I would encourage the listener to take that scripture, read it, and even take it before the Lord and go, Where do I need courage?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because maybe hearing it, you're going, I don't need courage.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm fine, I'm good.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I would just poke a little bit and go, yeah, maybe you're fine.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: But is there anything the Lord is inviting you to to not be just fine and not be comfortable and to use your words and be courageous with?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Again, just like Deanna said, maybe just speaking up what you want for supper.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: But and with that, as you're reading that, asking the Lord, who is it that you need to be courageous with?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: What are those things?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: What's that first step?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: So over time, this can become a directive where you are stepping into this without even thinking about it.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: But take the time.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: It might be weeks, it might be months, meditating on a scripture like this, asking the Lord, where do I need to be strong and courageous?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: What is it that you have for me?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know my nine friend listening to me, they're their uh mo is not to go into places where they have to be strong and courageous because that's just that's not your jam, but it can be.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're not looking for that.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're not looking to pick a battle or to assert yourself in any way.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: This is so good, very actionable.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Look at us, Deanna.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: We're doing this.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Our goal was because nines were starting with you.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: One, you might be the most forgiving.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: We'll just put it that way, because if we, if I do a, well, you know, like it's a little bit new and we're experimenting with this rhythm and spending one whole month on a type.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: I knew that I could start with the nines and you all would love it and you would be affirming and encouraging.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm really proud of Deanna and I because we can talk for hours at a time without stopping.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: If there's not something set on the calendar that we have to stop, we will keep talking.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: So we've done a pretty good job of covering some of the highlights and elements about the nine that I think are really important to begin this month-long conversation with.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: We'll unpack more with Jillanne, who's an Enneagram Nine and a wholehearted coach, and with Meredith, who is a wholehearted client.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so excited for you to hear her story.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we even have Marilyn Van Sill, who is an author and Enneagram Nine and Enneagram expert, who will continue to unpack all of the insights that I think are going to be very actionable and can be life-changing for a nine, but also for those who love a nine.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: So help me synthesize some of this conversation, Deanna.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's been different elements.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: The nine has been invited to wake up, to speak up, and to trust that your voice matters.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: There is an element of where if you've been keeping the peace by staying quiet, maybe the question for the Lord is where do I need to be strong and courageous?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: What else do you feel like is really important to make sure a nine walks away with understanding about themselves or just hearing this insight about how they view the world?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think even just the awareness that it's possible that you have done some things to keep yourself safe.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's usually what we do.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Personality is our way of coping with what the world brings to us, right?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I think that so in those places where you have awareness that you have melded with someone else or just kind of lost yourself.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think even just speaking the scripture over yourself, reminding you that you're courageous and that you're bold and that God has created you that way, that He has given you an impartation to give to others about peace and about being present.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And isn't it just like the enemy to fight us in the area where God wants us to be strong, where He's naturally created us, He's naturally created you as a type nine to bring peace in presence.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're always wondering if it's enough or you can be on the forefront kind of thing.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so don't slank back, just continue just to pull that out.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: I always say, you know, the older we get, the more we unravel the things that don't serve us any longer.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just encourage you to really dig in and say, what is not serving me any longer?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is it serving me to be so much like my fill in the blank, your friend, your husband, your child, that you forget that you also have the right to be existing on this earth?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I would encourage that peace for sure.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think I got stuck on the word impartation because that is so powerful for a nine.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: One, they've been imparted this ability to bring peace, and they must receive the invitation to impart then themselves.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so it goes both ways.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: I have that stood out to me for sure.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that shimmers to uh our friend who is listening as well, and to inquire what does that look like?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like for me and in this chapter of life?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, Deanna, thank you.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: This conversation has been rich.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: I am so excited for the rest of this year.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: You get to share your insights about each type.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Every month we're gonna be coming with these, not super short, but sweet enough to listen on a commute or on a healthy walk.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I think you've helped make the invitation for the Enneagram Nine to be clear is that God isn't asking you to stay quiet or to stay small.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: God is inviting you to wake up, to speak up, and to bring your full self.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Not because you have to earn anything, but because you have something important to impart.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And excited next month, we're gonna get to hear from you again.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: But in the meantime, next week, you'll get it to hear from Meredith and then followed by Jill Ann and Marilyn Bainsel.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm so excited.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks again for being a part of this conversation, Deanna.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, thank you.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was a pleasure.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for joining me for the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: If this conversation spoke to you, please share it with a friend.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: You can also visit simply wholehearted.com to take the free Enneagram quiz and also get your personalized podcast playlist specific for your Enneagram type.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: And remember, friend, your starting point doesn't have to be your stuck point.