Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Derek McCormack on Parental Stress and Burnout

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Derek McCormack on Parental Stress and Burnout · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Happy Families podcast. You know, parents
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: are more stressed than ever, like really, really stressed. The
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: data does not give parenting a good name. I don't
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  Speaker 1: know how else to say it. And yet when we
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  Speaker 1: look at our kids, we think, oh my goodness, I
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  Speaker 1: love them and I wouldn't change this for the world.
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  Speaker 1: Except maybe at two o'clock in the morning when you've
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  Speaker 1: woken me up for the fourth time tonight already. Anyway,
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  Speaker 1: more than 78,000 Australian parents visit one website every single day.
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  Speaker 1: They're looking for answers. And now the people who run
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  Speaker 1: it have released research saying those parents are, as I said,
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  Speaker 1: more stressed than ever. So here's the uncomfortable question. If
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  Speaker 1: we have more parenting information available than at any point
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  Speaker 1: in human history, why are we falling apart? Today on
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  Speaker 1: the podcast, Derek McCormick from the Raising Children Network, talking
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: about the latest study, talking about the Raising Children Network
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: resources online and a whole bunch of other stuff. That's next.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Stay with us. Hello, this is the Happy Families podcast.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: So glad that you've joined me for what I think
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: is going to be one of the most fascinating conversations
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  Speaker 1: we've had on the podcast. For some time, Derek McCormick
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  Speaker 1: is the director of the Raising Children Network. He's an
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  Speaker 1: honorary fellow at the Murdoch Children's Research Institute, otherwise known
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  Speaker 1: as the MCRI. He has a science communication background, spent
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  Speaker 1: more than 20 years now at the PRC, the Parenting
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  Speaker 1: Research Centre. Oh my goodness, what a bio. He's also
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  Speaker 1: a dad to two of his own kids, but three
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  Speaker 1: stepkids as well, which makes five kids all in their 20s.
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  Speaker 1: And they're slowly moving out, Derek, which means that you
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  Speaker 1: are feeling a little bit more relaxed about life than
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  Speaker 1: you probably were 10 years ago.
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  Speaker 2: A smidgen. I mean, you know, things change, you know,
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  Speaker 2: things change and evolve. So it's hard to compare one
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  Speaker 2: year with the next.
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  Speaker 1: Parenting is just this ongoing process of endurance.
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  Speaker 2: It's a marathon, not a sprint. Absolutely. So and I
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  Speaker 2: think we in the early years of parenting, we have
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  Speaker 2: certain ideas and expectations and then we learn they will
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  Speaker 2: last a year or two and then you'll have new
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  Speaker 2: expectations and things evolving that you didn't quite predict.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and expectations are the surest way to be miserable
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  Speaker 1: as a parent because the kids always seem to go
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  Speaker 1: in a different direction anyway. Hey, let's talk about parenting today.
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  Speaker 1: It's the brand new study. Well, you've been working on
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  Speaker 1: this for some time, but just recently there was a
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  Speaker 1: new tranche of data that came out in what you
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  Speaker 1: called the Parenting Today study. In brief, how many people
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  Speaker 1: are participating in this study? What are you researching and
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  Speaker 1: what did you find?
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  Speaker 2: Great, yeah. So my colleagues at the Parenting Research Center
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  Speaker 2: who also work with Raising Children Network, my main thing,
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  Speaker 2: They conducted this research over the last few years. So
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  Speaker 2: it's happening every three years. But this year was the
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  Speaker 2: first national version of a parenting survey in this country ever.
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  Speaker 2: So more than 10,000 parents gave us their time, answered
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  Speaker 2: more than 120 questions. And we really got deep in
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  Speaker 2: terms of what's going on for them, how they're coping,
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  Speaker 2: what's going really well. And those 10,000 parents gave us
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  Speaker 2: a really great snapshot that we will take again in
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  Speaker 2: another three years.
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  Speaker 1: When you say they told you what's going well, I
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  Speaker 1: think we should start with the good news. But the
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  Speaker 1: headlines certainly weren't positive because the media always grabs onto
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  Speaker 1: the negative. So tell us the good stuff first.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, look, the good news is when we look at
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  Speaker 2: that data, a lot of parents are doing pretty well.
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  Speaker 2: They value their job as a parent. They know where
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  Speaker 2: to get support in many cases. And They're happy in
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  Speaker 2: general with how things are going with raising their children.
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  Speaker 2: And what we found when we looked into the other
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  Speaker 2: data is that there are parts of the story that
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  Speaker 2: aren't quite as positive. And of course, you're right, that
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  Speaker 2: will grab headlines. And that's what we did. But we've
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  Speaker 2: managed to weave the good in with the less good
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  Speaker 2: in the narrative. So the good stuff is parents are
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  Speaker 2: generally coping pretty well with the job of being a parent.
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  Speaker 2: But on the other side, there are a lot of
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  Speaker 2: pressures on parents these days, which are leading to this,
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  Speaker 2: what looks like a bit of a decline in things
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  Speaker 2: like self-compassion, general well-being, feelings of isolation, those kinds of
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  Speaker 2: areas where parents could use a little bit more support,
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  Speaker 2: either from the clothes around them or just being kinder
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  Speaker 2: to themselves.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I talked about this on the podcast a few
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  Speaker 1: weeks back, the idea of self-compassion, the loneliness, and also,
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  Speaker 1: as you said, the Getting the support, getting the support
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  Speaker 1: that we need. In fact, I did a webinar called
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  Speaker 1: Burnt Out where I looked pretty heavily on this particular study.
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  Speaker 1: I've got a question for you that's probably a little
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  Speaker 1: bit of a challenging one, especially since you're running one
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  Speaker 1: of the most important resources on parenting in the country here.
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  Speaker 1: Raising Children Network has been going for 20 years, since 2006.
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  Speaker 1: Millions of parents have been involved and taken great information
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  Speaker 1: from it. A lot of money from the government so
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  Speaker 1: that we can get the best information out. They're evidence-based.
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  Speaker 1: My question for you is, if parents are more stressed
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  Speaker 1: now than when they started, which seems to be what
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  Speaker 1: shows up in the data, what does that tell you
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  Speaker 1: about whether giving more information is the right intervention?
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  Speaker 2: I think it's a great question and we need to
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  Speaker 2: face these questions bravely. I think information is critical and trustworthy,
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  Speaker 2: reliable information is exactly what we offer, but it ain't
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  Speaker 2: the whole story. So there's lots going on outside of
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  Speaker 2: simple information provision that will influence what's happening for a parent.
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  Speaker 2: They've got all those factors and contextual things in their
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  Speaker 2: lives that they might be having trouble with finances, relationship difficulties,
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  Speaker 2: and so on, what we call the social determinants, right,
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  Speaker 2: of health. And so on top of that, you have
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  Speaker 2: an evolving landscape around parenting with technology and AI coming in.
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  Speaker 2: And these things can give parents extra stress while they
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  Speaker 2: are benefiting from good quality messages on how to raise
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  Speaker 2: children or what's good for children's development. So when we
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  Speaker 2: look at that, we look at, you know, what we
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  Speaker 2: see in this data, we think we better keep going
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  Speaker 2: with trustworthy supports, but we also need to work as
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  Speaker 2: a country in partnership with each other to put maybe
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  Speaker 2: some more scaffolding around parents around wellbeing. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: The isolation, the feeling like you can't talk to anyone
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  Speaker 1: about it. And And the feeling that everyone else has
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  Speaker 1: got it together because their Instagram looks so good can
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  Speaker 1: be so debilitating. And I know we're supposed to be
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  Speaker 1: past that, and yet it feels like when I'm talking
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  Speaker 1: to parents, they're not. They feel like they're the only
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  Speaker 1: ones who are struggling, and they definitely don't want to
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  Speaker 1: open up to everyone else who looks like they've got
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  Speaker 1: it together about the challenges that they're facing. Let me
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  Speaker 1: ask you, Derek, I get really concerned about the amount
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  Speaker 1: of information that parents are getting about raising their kids from–
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  Speaker 1: from influencers from instagram from from tiktok and i wonder
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  Speaker 1: sometimes if some of the stress is caused by parenting
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  Speaker 1: advice like and not necessarily the good sort but just
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  Speaker 1: there's so much parenting advice out there it's turned right
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  Speaker 1: up the tone of it can be really really challenging
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  Speaker 1: to navigate the online world is not i'm going to
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  Speaker 1: say a um it's not a safe place to be.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah for a lot of people there's a lot of
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  Speaker 3: noise a lot of noise to try and cut through
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  Speaker 3: and The challenge, the true challenge for us, Justin, is
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  Speaker 3: to accept the reality of what the algorithm is serving people,
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  Speaker 3: what influencers and creators are serving people, which is not
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  Speaker 3: helping as much as, say, a trusted source.
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  Speaker 2: And then figure out as best we can how to
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  Speaker 2: cut through that noise. So, you know, we are taking
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  Speaker 2: seriously the world of the influencer space and how we
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  Speaker 2: can cut through and show up there as a trusted
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  Speaker 2: place to get your messages. Same with other platforms. tools
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  Speaker 2: like social media more generally and AI. How can we
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  Speaker 2: show up for parents in a trusted way? And I
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  Speaker 2: include everyday life and the trusted spaces, the libraries, the YMCA,
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  Speaker 2: the sporting clubs. Where are parents feeling that they're in
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  Speaker 2: a trusted space and can we show up for those
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  Speaker 2: in those spaces?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's nothing worse than seeing a reel and feeling
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  Speaker 1: like you're damaging your child while you're just trying your
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  Speaker 1: hardest to get it right. After the break... We find
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  Speaker 1: out what the director of the Raising Children Network, Derek McCormick,
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  Speaker 1: struggles with and is stressed out most by as a parent. Plus,
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  Speaker 1: what do we do about AI taking over from things
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  Speaker 1: like the Raising Children Network? Do we trust AI? Does
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  Speaker 1: ChatGPT or Claude know better than the experts who have
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  Speaker 1: put the website together? That and more right after this.
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  Speaker 2: We're back.
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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. Derek McCormick, director of the
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  Speaker 1: Raising Children Network, talking about the Parenting Today study published
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  Speaker 1: by the Parenting Research Centre and the challenge of getting
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  Speaker 1: really good information out to parents who are feeling overwhelmed
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  Speaker 1: and sometimes just feel like there's too much information. Derek,
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  Speaker 1: you've got five kids in their 20s. What stresses you
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  Speaker 1: out the most as a parent?
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  Speaker 2: I think when you get to this stage of parenting
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  Speaker 2: and you're still very much engaged with How can I
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  Speaker 2: do the best for my young person who's still developing?
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  Speaker 2: I think the thing that stressed me out most would be,
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  Speaker 2: I don't know, negotiating that role where you become a
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  Speaker 2: kind of a peer and a supportive peer for your
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  Speaker 2: child while you're also feeling that protection and you want
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  Speaker 2: to guide them in their decision making. But they're making
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  Speaker 2: a lot of decisions without you. So you're balancing that thing.
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  Speaker 2: I suppose that Role negotiation might be something I think
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  Speaker 2: about more than anything else. Am I doing all the
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  Speaker 2: things I could do to further help them develop into
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  Speaker 2: adults and through adulthood? That would probably be the thing.
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  Speaker 1: You've been working around the parenting domain for 20 years
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  Speaker 1: with the Raising Children Network. Let's go back 10 or
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  Speaker 1: 15 years when the kids were all at home and
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  Speaker 1: there was nonstop activity and action and conflict and tension
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  Speaker 1: and all of those things. I think.
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  Speaker 2: Looking back at that kind of phase, it was mostly
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  Speaker 2: about having an open line of communication and something I
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  Speaker 2: know you talk about a lot. And often when I'm
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  Speaker 2: talking to media too, I end up back in that
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  Speaker 2: space again and again. How is the line of communication,
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  Speaker 2: whether it's about technology use, whether it's about feeling safe
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  Speaker 2: at school, whatever the topic, is the communication line open?
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  Speaker 2: And for me, having a blended family during those years,
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  Speaker 2: stepkids and my own kids, just trying to keep those
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  Speaker 2: different styles of communication with the different young people and
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  Speaker 2: making sure we've got some sort of back and forth
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  Speaker 2: so that I'm seen as a trusted place to bring
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  Speaker 2: a problem.
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  Speaker 1: Derek, I've always been taken by the research that talks
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  Speaker 1: about how parental supervision and monitoring is not the thing
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  Speaker 1: that keeps kids safe. Child disclosure to parent is the
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  Speaker 1: thing that keeps kids safe. Hearing you say that is
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  Speaker 1: just one of those reassuring things where as a parent,
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  Speaker 1: That's what you want more than anything. Are we talking?
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  Speaker 1: Are the kids disclosing? Are they opening up? Are they
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  Speaker 1: letting me know what's happening in their world so that
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  Speaker 1: I can be that steady source of support? And ironically,
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  Speaker 1: the more you push them to disclose, the less likely
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  Speaker 1: it is that they will, right? You've got to make
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  Speaker 1: the relationship feel safe so they'll do it.
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  Speaker 2: Okay. Absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: Let's get back into the wonderful resource that you've got.
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  Speaker 1: I was grateful a number of years ago to be
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  Speaker 1: able to contribute to the Raising Children Network. But I
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  Speaker 1: think about what the world has become with the rise
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  Speaker 1: of AI technology. My sense now is that rather than
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  Speaker 1: jumping onto Google and going to the Raising Children Network website,
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  Speaker 1: parents are diving into their preferred AI at 2 o'clock
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  Speaker 1: in the morning and typing their question in there instead.
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  Speaker 1: I wonder what your view on that is. Do you
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  Speaker 1: have any data on that? Have you seen any change
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  Speaker 1: in your numbers at the Raising Children Network?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And what are you guys doing about it?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we've definitely seen, like anybody who publishes anything online,
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  Speaker 2: and we see the effect of numbers dropping on a
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: website versus increasing in other tools. So we're seeing, like
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: in the last 12 months, we saw more than 100%
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  Speaker 2: increase of people coming to us through their preferred AI.
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  Speaker 2: Because the data you get is getting better. Now, it's
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  Speaker 2: still not perfect. We're on a long road here. But
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  Speaker 2: the data you can get about who's coming to us
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  Speaker 2: because of AI is getting better. So that's encouraging while
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  Speaker 2: we're also playing in the social media space and looking
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: at Instagram and TikTok and these other places that we
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: need to show up for parents. So it's a, what
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  Speaker 2: would I call it? It's a changing landscape. What we
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  Speaker 2: know from the data we do have is that these
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  Speaker 2: tools naturally will preference quality where they can. And the
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  Speaker 2: way we developed our messages is in a way that
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  Speaker 2: it will preference our messages and cite them better and
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  Speaker 2: better over time. The way I think about it now, Justin,
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  Speaker 2: is we have this large online presence full of trusted messages,
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  Speaker 2: almost like a bank, like a repository, and that's getting
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  Speaker 2: scraped and used and reused in ways that are increasing
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  Speaker 2: so that we are showing up for more parents who
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  Speaker 2: are not doing the old school Google. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: So I have two questions to go. One of them
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  Speaker 1: is a policy question. So for people who are not
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: into government stuff and policy stuff, I'll make it really quick.
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  Speaker 1: And then a really practical question about the Parenting Today
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  Speaker 1: research and the stress that parents are experiencing. Let's go
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  Speaker 1: with the policy question first. You've got this role where
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: you're government funded. You have the ear of government. When
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  Speaker 1: you look at the research that has come through from
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  Speaker 1: the Parenting Today study indicating that parents are pretty stressed
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  Speaker 1: and struggling with burnout and loneliness and so on, what
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  Speaker 1: are you asking the government for off the back of
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  Speaker 1: this research? What policy changes do you think need to
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: be initiated to support parents and families better?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, well, in those conversations, I will, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: have thankfully good conversations with social services and other departments.
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  Speaker 2: And we'll say things like, here at the Parenting Research Centre,
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  Speaker 2: we've got this data and it tells us there are
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  Speaker 2: things we could do, some more things we could do
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  Speaker 2: around parents where they are in their daily life. Now,
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  Speaker 2: it includes showing up with good, trusted messages, but it
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  Speaker 2: probably includes other things like peer support, and having access
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  Speaker 2: to human support, maybe a little bit more than they
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: have in the last few years. We have to acknowledge
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: all the other caveats like COVID and financial strain and
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: all those things we can't fix in a minute. But
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  Speaker 2: looking at interpersonal relational support is something we would shine
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  Speaker 2: a light on. And we might talk about things like MyTime,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: which is a peer support group across the country. Or
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: we might talk about having other forms of of real-world
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: support while the information is there as a trusted foundation.
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  Speaker 1: Final question. If a parent is feeling a little bit stressed,
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  Speaker 1: feeling a bit burnt out, resonating with the findings of
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  Speaker 1: the study that we've been discussing today, what is the
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  Speaker 1: one thing that you think they could do? And I
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: know this is such a general question because every family
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: is different, every circumstance is different. But is there one
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  Speaker 1: thing that you've seen work again and again? One of
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: those things where you think, oh my goodness, if we
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: could just get everyone to do this thing, it would definitely...
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  Speaker 1: create a shift. It would just reduce the stress a
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: little bit for almost everybody.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I'll offer two quick things instead of one. One
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  Speaker 2: thing I would say is think about, as a parent,
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  Speaker 2: think about where you're getting advice when you need it.
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  Speaker 2: And is it coming from a place you truly trust?
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  Speaker 2: That might be a family member. We've seen this in
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  Speaker 2: the data. It might be a trusted teacher, doctor, or
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: it might be the internet. So have a look at that,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: maybe with a little bit of a critical eye. Am
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: I getting stuff I can really trust? But then leaving
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: aside that one, I would really think what tends to
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: help is this refocus on how am I taking care
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: of myself? It sounds like something parents don't love to
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: jump into, but the whole airplane thing where you take
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: care of yourself before someone else. So that comes back
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: to those things like self-compassion. And am I being kind
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  Speaker 2: to myself? Do I talk to myself the way I
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: would talk to a good friend? And starting there and
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  Speaker 2: then having more conversations like that with yourself might help
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: you reach out and have them with other people.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, the answer all too often is no, isn't it?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a struggle.
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  Speaker 1: Really, really valuable conversation. We're going to link to the research,
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  Speaker 1: the Parenting Today research in the show notes, as well
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  Speaker 1: as the Raising Children Network. Derek McCormick is the director
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: of the Raising Children Network and an honorary fellow at
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: the Murdoch Children's Research Institute. It's been a delight to
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  Speaker 1: talk to you. I'm so glad we got to do this. Thanks, Derek.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Likewise. Anytime, Justin.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: For more information, visit either of the websites that we've
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: just referred to. Otherwise, you can visit happyfamilies.com.au for more
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: to support your family. The Happy Families podcast, sound and
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: audio engineering from Justin Roulon at Bridge Media. Our additional
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: support comes from Mim Hammons. If you would like more,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: tomorrow the podcast continues with an insight into research on
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: whether we're maximizing, maximizing, maximizing, whether it's helping or whether
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: we should be satisfied with a little less than the best.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Why would we say that? Tune in tomorrow and find
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: out when the podcast drops right here on the Happy
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Families podcast.