Latest / Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture / Navigating Existential Dread and Finding Meaning Together (Benjamin Matthew)

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Navigating Existential Dread and Finding Meaning Together (Benjamin Matthew) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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  Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
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  Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
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  Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast.
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  Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,
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  Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the
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  Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions
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  Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. He called to make a
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  Speaker 1: That's CiU dot edu. Hey everyone, and welcome to this
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  Speaker 1: episode of Thanking Christian and doctor James Spencer and I'm
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  Speaker 1: joined by doctor Bed Matthew. Ben is a professor of
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  Speaker 1: counselor education at Columbia International University, and we're continuing our
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  Speaker 1: conversation about faith and mental health today and we're going
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  Speaker 1: to be talking about the second leg of the stool
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  Speaker 1: that we've been talking about, so we've addressed one of
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  Speaker 1: them so far. We talked a little bit about the
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  Speaker 1: social leg of school that stool in the last couple
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  Speaker 1: of episodes, and now we're going to move into the
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  Speaker 1: existential leg. This idea of shared meaning making and what
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  Speaker 1: is that and how does that relate to mental health?
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  Speaker 1: So Ben, welcome back, Thanks for being here.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, always great to be with you, James.
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  Speaker 1: Ben's having a little existential crisis on this episode, just
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  Speaker 1: to let everybody know. He's in the midst of a
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  Speaker 1: tornado warning and so we may hear sirens blaring or
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  Speaker 1: you know, windows crashing in, but he's braving the elements
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  Speaker 1: to be on the show with us today. So appreciate that, brother, absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: As I said to James earlier, if this helps your
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  Speaker 2: views and likes, I'm there for man.
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  Speaker 1: That's what shared meaning making is really all about, its views,
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  Speaker 1: and like, this is where we find meaning today, and
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  Speaker 1: so if you could help me out with that, that would
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  Speaker 1: be fantastic. So we're really talking to I think this
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  Speaker 1: is an interesting topic because I was just sitting around
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  Speaker 1: actually thinking about this last night, and you know, I
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  Speaker 1: have so much going on in life, and everything's kind
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  Speaker 1: of good, like it's all good stuff. But within the busyness,
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  Speaker 1: there are these moments where I find myself combating the
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  Speaker 1: idea that none of it matters, right, that it's none
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  Speaker 1: of none of it's good enough, that you're not really
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  Speaker 1: having any impact, that you're not really doing anything particularly important.
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  Speaker 1: And maybe that's all true. It's just I'm not sure
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  Speaker 1: it really matters. And so there's a sense in which,
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  Speaker 1: you know, I feel like this this sort of baseline
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  Speaker 1: anxiety is sort of seeping in a lot of areas.
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  Speaker 1: I'm certainly feeling it at certain points, and it just
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  Speaker 1: feels like, you know, in those moments, I have to
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  Speaker 1: sort of reset my understanding of what we're doing here,
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  Speaker 1: like what is really our meaning, our purpose, our general
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  Speaker 1: sense of what matters in life. How do you encounter
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  Speaker 1: that sort of in your own life maybe, but also
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  Speaker 1: in your practice.
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  Speaker 2: No, yeah, I'll start with the second one. I can
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  Speaker 2: recall actually dealing with clients. You know, again, whenever they
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  Speaker 2: first come in, it's usually some kind of mood disorder, depression, anxiety,
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  Speaker 2: and we kind of unpack some of the realities, and
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  Speaker 2: after we spend some time together, after they feel a
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  Speaker 2: little more comfortable with me. I've had a couple of
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  Speaker 2: clients come to this point in the counseling. I'll give
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  Speaker 2: you the phrase that I often hear, I'm angry at
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  Speaker 2: God for my existence. I'm angry at God for my existence.
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  Speaker 2: So that's more than just I'm having marriage problems. That's
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  Speaker 2: more than just I'm feeling really depressed about this life situation,
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  Speaker 2: which is there as well. But as they process this
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  Speaker 2: stuff in their life, it gets to this larger level,
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  Speaker 2: this this other other engagement that is so much more
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  Speaker 2: about them, to this larger existential kind of thing. And
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  Speaker 2: the response that sometimes come is because of all this
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  Speaker 2: stuff that's happening here. There's this frustration, this anger, this
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  Speaker 2: bitterness against not just God, but the God who would
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  Speaker 2: allow my existence to be a reality that's having to
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  Speaker 2: deal with all this, and there's this significant shift in
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  Speaker 2: what we're then doing in the counseling that again, I
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  Speaker 2: don't want to ignore the life's circumstances. And I think
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  Speaker 2: you're right. I think we all did. I know I
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  Speaker 2: do as well. Where you continue to put in effort
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  Speaker 2: day in and day out on whatever project or purpose
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  Speaker 2: that you're engaging with, and whether it's the lack of reciprocation,
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  Speaker 2: whether it's this disengagement from others, you just have a
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  Speaker 2: sense of like I'm not even doing this, Like I
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  Speaker 2: does not feel like an energy well spent, if not
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  Speaker 2: to the specific issue, just to the larger why even bother?
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  Speaker 2: But when I hear that in clients, that particularly that
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  Speaker 2: kind of not just frustration of the situation, but anger
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  Speaker 2: at existence. Most of my clients are Christians, and so
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  Speaker 2: it's directed theologically towards a person, but I've had other
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  Speaker 2: clients who are not religiously or and they'll just use
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  Speaker 2: the language I'm just angry at exists. I'm angry that
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  Speaker 2: I have to be here for this stuff. Yeah, so
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  Speaker 2: it may not be necessarily directed towards a creator, but
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  Speaker 2: it is still nevertheless frustrated that creates. I would say
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  Speaker 2: both some other opportunities, but to be honest, some real
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  Speaker 2: struggles too of how do we kind of then engage
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  Speaker 2: with that Accordingly.
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  Speaker 1: It's interesting. I don't know how many people can relate
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  Speaker 1: to this, and it may actually say something more about
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  Speaker 1: me than maybe I even want to admit. But I
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  Speaker 1: can remember in high school when I used to run.
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  Speaker 1: I don't really run that much anymore. I've decided that
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  Speaker 1: I wanted to get big enough that I would never
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  Speaker 1: have to run again. But when I used to run
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  Speaker 1: in high school, if it was windy out and I
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  Speaker 1: was running into the wind, it would really frustrate me
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  Speaker 1: because it's just it was just annoying. Here I am
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  Speaker 1: trying to run. I just want still air. I just
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  Speaker 1: want to be running down the road and the wind
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  Speaker 1: is like coming at It's like you know, blowing in
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  Speaker 1: your ears. You know, like everything about the wind just
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  Speaker 1: annoyed me. Right, It's just so frustrating to run when
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  Speaker 1: it was windy. I could do. I could run on
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  Speaker 1: the snow, I could run in the rain didn't bother me.
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  Speaker 1: And it was odd because it was only when I
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  Speaker 1: was running, like I used to bike all the time
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  Speaker 1: in Chicago, when snow rain never bothered me. When I
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  Speaker 1: was biking, right, running just infuriated. It was the most
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  Speaker 1: annoying thing I'd ever experienced. And occasionally, you know, when
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  Speaker 1: I when I'm in sort of a rut, I suppose,
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  Speaker 1: or you know, just just sort of one of those
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  Speaker 1: moments in life where you're just frustrated, I always think
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  Speaker 1: back to that running into the wind. That's how it feels.
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  Speaker 1: There's nothing to like, there's nothing to do with it. Right,
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  Speaker 1: the wind is the wind. You're not stopping the wind.
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  Speaker 1: There's there's no chance you're going to stop the wind.
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  Speaker 1: Do you either keep running into the wind or you stop.
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  Speaker 1: The wind ain't stopping, you know, And that's just something
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  Speaker 1: that's that's sort of how it feels. It's like, that's
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  Speaker 1: how that that It's the same feeling I get occasionally
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  Speaker 1: when I'm doing this work and I'm not really connected
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  Speaker 1: to any sort of meaning and you kind of you
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  Speaker 1: start to look around in my world. You know, it's
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  Speaker 1: some of its content creation, but a lot of it
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  Speaker 1: is just working with major donors or anything like that,
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  Speaker 1: where it's like it's clear that they don't think you're
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  Speaker 1: having enough impact, and so you know you're not big enough,
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  Speaker 1: You're not you know, reaching millions and billions of people.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah right, And so sometimes I feel really settled in
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  Speaker 1: the work and say, no, producing good work is the point, right,
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  Speaker 1: and that's it, and doing little things to help people
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  Speaker 1: that maybe go unnoticed is the important part. And then
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  Speaker 1: there's that whole other side of it where you start
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  Speaker 1: to feel like you're running into the wind. Yeah right,
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  Speaker 1: there's no way of changing these other trends, Like it
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  Speaker 1: just keeps coming at you and coming at you, and
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  Speaker 1: so I don't know that picture of running into the wind.
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  Speaker 1: That's what I think of when I think about this
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  Speaker 1: existential leg of the stool. It's this notion that you're
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  Speaker 1: never gonna stop, like life is just going to keep
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  Speaker 1: coming at you and you either just have to decide
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  Speaker 1: you're gonna keep going at it or just stop. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And there's something I'll say when I'm working with clients
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  Speaker 2: that get to that point who metaphorically are running against
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  Speaker 2: the wind as you said, there's something good about giving
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  Speaker 2: some space for that frustration, right that the way that
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  Speaker 2: I often say, it's not a great place to live,
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  Speaker 2: but I think we need to be willing to visit
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  Speaker 2: there and let the frustration have some space, have some voice,
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  Speaker 2: I think particularly in Christian circles, where again we do
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  Speaker 2: have an eschological hope. Yes, that's good and right, and
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  Speaker 2: we should move towards that. And yet again it's not
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  Speaker 2: without the real struggle of the moment, right, you know,
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  Speaker 2: to quote the preacher vanity of vanity of sorts. We
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  Speaker 2: feel the frustration of the in and out engagement, whether
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  Speaker 2: it's intellectual or physical or material, and at the end
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  Speaker 2: of the day, it's like grasping at things and you
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  Speaker 2: just feel the weight of existence that doesn't always go
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  Speaker 2: the way it should. I know, for me, one of
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  Speaker 2: the things I'm trying to do, both in the clinical context,
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  Speaker 2: if not for myself personally, is to give some space
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  Speaker 2: for that frustration rather than just trying to Okay, but
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  Speaker 2: what's the good news? And there is good news, don't
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  Speaker 2: be wrong. We should get there. But sometimes I think
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  Speaker 2: we just need to be willing to give people an
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  Speaker 2: opportunity to voice the frustration and just sit in it.
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  Speaker 1: For a while.
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  Speaker 2: That's not a common I do feel. Within my discipline particularly,
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  Speaker 2: we try to often shortcut the frustration to get to
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  Speaker 2: the healing. The healing's good, but we try to get
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  Speaker 2: their little too fast. Whether it is therapeutically, medically, whatever, digitally, however,
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  Speaker 2: we try to solve the discomfort. The discomfort is real
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  Speaker 2: and it's based on some real existential crisis. We need
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  Speaker 2: to give some space for it as needed.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm you know, I mean, I'm a biblical
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  Speaker 1: studies geek. Right, So a lot of this comes down
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  Speaker 1: back to like interpretive frameworks for me, right, Like when
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  Speaker 1: I'm trying to work through some of these frustrations, and
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  Speaker 1: even when I'm to your point, just sitting in that frustration,
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  Speaker 1: there's a part of my brain that's always like, you
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  Speaker 1: just need to rethink this, you know, like your perspectives
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  Speaker 1: off right, And I know my perspective's off and so
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  Speaker 1: even as I'm taking some time to sort of sit
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  Speaker 1: in that frustration, I have that little itch in the
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  Speaker 1: back of my brain it's like, you just need to
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  Speaker 1: rethink this, Like some of these ideas that are rumbling
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  Speaker 1: around in your skull just aren't quite right, and there
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  Speaker 1: has to be this sort of shift that you make
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  Speaker 1: in order to get back to a place where you're
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  Speaker 1: recognizing that God uses people differently, that your life does
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  Speaker 1: have meaning and purpose, that God is working through you,
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  Speaker 1: and to the extent that you are willing to give
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  Speaker 1: up your self to him, He's going to do what
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  Speaker 1: he wants to do through you. I think sometimes I'm
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  Speaker 1: even trying to change the way I talk about that,
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  Speaker 1: because sometimes like God's going to do great things through you,
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  Speaker 1: not necessarily right, not necessarily right, and so you know,
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  Speaker 1: but I don't know when we think about that interpretive
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  Speaker 1: framework aspect, do you find that to be helpful or
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  Speaker 1: is that just me sort of importing my biblical studies
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  Speaker 1: into the into the realm of mental health?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my God, that's always not just a danger
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  Speaker 2: but a reality for all of us, whether like you,
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  Speaker 2: you're a scholar of biblical knowledge or anyone. There's always
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  Speaker 2: a danger of kind of forcing shoehorning in some of
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  Speaker 2: our perspectives if it's not truly helping. That being said,
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  Speaker 2: I will say similarly, the framework, I'll say for myself,
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  Speaker 2: the biblical theology framework has been an incredibly helpful lens
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  Speaker 2: to apply to my hermeneutics in that there's a greater
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  Speaker 2: meta narrative, greater story, and I'm not the center of it.
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  Speaker 2: Like when I hear you say how God loves you
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  Speaker 2: and has a wonderful plan for your life. Well, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: those aren't untrue, but that phrase tends to put me
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  Speaker 2: at the middle of the story, and I'm like, a, right, well,
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  Speaker 2: maybe I'm not the of the story and that's actually
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  Speaker 2: a good thing, right.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: My reframing of scripture in that light that the main
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  Speaker 2: story is not about me but about the person and
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  Speaker 2: work of God through the Sun and the administration of
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  Speaker 2: the Spirit. Interesting enough. That actually brings me more joy
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  Speaker 2: and meaning and purpose when I realize I'm not the
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  Speaker 2: center of the story, or as I've said it to some,
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  Speaker 2: I'm not it, but I get to be part of it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Right, I do think there's something to take that framework
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  Speaker 2: and utilize. I have utilized that in certain clinical context
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  Speaker 2: because existential dread that that frustration of existence tends to
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  Speaker 2: be somewhat and I use the term more clinically egotistical,
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  Speaker 2: not as like a character deficiency, but in terms of
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  Speaker 2: very inwardly focused your frustration at your existence is about
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  Speaker 2: your existence, So in that sense, it's the true definition
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  Speaker 2: of yourself. Again, I want to give space for that.
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  Speaker 2: I want to give some opportunity to give voice. I
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  Speaker 2: think that the Psalms gives some ideas of the laments, right,
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  Speaker 2: that's an important part of the emotional experience of humans
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  Speaker 2: in response to the tragedy of situations and of life.
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  Speaker 2: At the same time, trying to not just center myself
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  Speaker 2: as the center of the story right helps for both
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  Speaker 2: Christians and non Christians. I've worked with Christians that it
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  Speaker 2: makes a little more sense, you know, theologically and foundationally,
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  Speaker 2: but it even works with clients that don't have a
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  Speaker 2: similar faith perspective when we help them kind of see, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: maybe you're not the center of the story. Maybe you're
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  Speaker 2: you're part of a story, whatever that may look like
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  Speaker 2: in their context. I have found some incredible help in that. Again,
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  Speaker 2: it does a couple of things. One, it relieves the
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  Speaker 2: pressure of having to then perform to that expectation. If
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  Speaker 2: I'm the center of the story, it all depends on
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  Speaker 2: me then. And if I don't get all the likes,
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: if I don't get all the videos, if I don't
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  Speaker 2: get all the donors. If I don't get all the
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  Speaker 2: clients all, it puts so much pressure on me. When
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  Speaker 2: I'm the center of the story, or if I'm not
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  Speaker 2: the center of the story, it doesn't depend on me.
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  Speaker 2: And I mean theologically, this aligns a lot more with
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  Speaker 2: God's sovereignty over the situations of life. And two, it
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  Speaker 2: tends to then reorient how do I be part of
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  Speaker 2: the story, meaning how do I contribute to something greater
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  Speaker 2: than myself? This is where you know, not to get
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  Speaker 2: again too philosophical when we start getting into tellos right,
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  Speaker 2: the ideas of meaning making towards a created end that
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  Speaker 2: is not something I create myself, but is given to me.
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  Speaker 2: If I can help clients tap into that that much more,
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  Speaker 2: working towards something not inherently of themselves, that starts giving
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  Speaker 2: them significant hope in the midst of this existential dread
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  Speaker 2: that I think biblically, it works for my hermeneutics, personally,
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  Speaker 2: it works my faith, and even for non Christians it
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  Speaker 2: helps give them something beyond themselves to look forward to.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, when I hear you talk about that,
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  Speaker 1: a couple of ideas came to mind. Number one is,
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  Speaker 1: you know, wanting not to jump to the fix. The
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  Speaker 1: head goes to Romans eight, right, where the Holy Spirit
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  Speaker 1: helps us express these groanings that we can't really comprehend.
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  Speaker 1: There's no fix there. It's how do we navigate from
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  Speaker 1: this broken existence that we're in in the moment to
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  Speaker 1: the glorified state where we know we're supposed to be
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  Speaker 1: in union with Christ. And there's no way for us
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  Speaker 1: to solve for that, like we don't even know what
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  Speaker 1: we're asking. We don't we can't comprehend how we go
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  Speaker 1: from where we are now to where we know we're
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  Speaker 1: going to be with Christ, and so there's no solve there. Like,
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  Speaker 1: that's this appropriate anxiety that we're feeling to some degree
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  Speaker 1: of not hopelessness, but a complete and utter lack of
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  Speaker 1: understanding of how to move from here to there. The
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  Speaker 1: only Spirit, Sorry, that's right, right, And so that that
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  Speaker 1: part where the Holy Spirit intervenes. I think when you're
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  Speaker 1: talking about like giving time for this sort of anxiety,
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  Speaker 1: just to sit, for this sort of discomfort, to just sit,
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  Speaker 1: that like that's the passage I go to. It's this
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  Speaker 1: idea that sometimes if we're continually trying to solve, we're
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  Speaker 1: not leaving this room for the groaning that that is
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  Speaker 1: inevitable for us, and for the work of the Holy
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  Speaker 1: Spirit to intercede in that space. And then the other
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  Speaker 1: side is sort of like a Jeremiah moment or Elijah
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  Speaker 1: in the Wilderness sort of moment moment right where there's
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  Speaker 1: this deep like, Lord, I'm done sort of flavor to it,
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  Speaker 1: and and God comes in and reframes for them. You know,
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  Speaker 1: with Elijah, it was man, I'm the only one left, Lord,
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  Speaker 1: and God's like, well, really, you're not really the only
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  Speaker 1: one left, you know. But God, in his graciousness still
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  Speaker 1: gives Elijah and out like he recognizes where Elijah is,
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  Speaker 1: gives him the comfort that there are these seven thousand
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  Speaker 1: other people aren't doing it. But then you see the
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: transition then to Elisha, like a recognition that Elijah is
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: at his limit. And I think that's sort of a
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: beautiful picture, like there is this reframing that needs to happen.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: But then ultimately we're still dependent on the grace of
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: God to sort of walk us through a lot of
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: this stuff. Yeah, it's so there's just a couple of
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: things that came to mind when you were so good.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: We're talking about those things.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think about I mentioned the lament psalms in particular,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: right the Yeah, A good section of the Bible is
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: essentially this language of poetry that in itself is an
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: emotional expression of language and feeling and hope and suffering
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: that even so much more, I mean, think about that
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Biblical theology lens that when Christ is on the cross,
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: knowing his childhood and all the things he learned in
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: the synagogue, and all the psalms that he probably read
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: and knew and memorized, that at the greatest existential confrontation
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: of his soul, he reaches for one of those lament psalms. Right,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: my God, My God, why have you forsaken me? Yeah,
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: we can't begin to unpack the understanding of it, and
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: yet we know it gives It gives it gives that opportunity,
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: It gives language to the existential anxiety of the moment
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: in a way that he's not chastised for it. He's
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: he's not condemned, as it were, for even phrasing it
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: that way, but he lets it sit it let's it
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: gives it voice because Christ, in that moment recognized what
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: the psalmist was doing and is able to appropriate that
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: language in a way that I'll say, I'm in a
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: clinical context when I'm sitting with clients, and when I
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: hear them say when I try to give them that space, Yeah,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: to hear them say this is so good for me,
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: thank you for just letting me get this out, like
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: they're thankful, just for the chance to elucidate, just to
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: give vocabulary to the struggle. Because in almost every other context,
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: my marriage, my kids, my work, my church, whatever, I've
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: got to look the part. There's this certain facade I
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: have to present, and that's somewhat normative. Right, we can't
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: go around as an e or kind of complex. And
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: yet I do wonder to what degree, let me say this,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: even within the context of the local church, do we
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: have space. Do we provide space, whether it's on Sundays,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: small groups, smaller context where we give people those Psalm
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: twenty two opportunities.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of being able just.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: To voice, to articulate the hardship of the moment, knowing
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: that there's still support. Right, what is it the times
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: before that moment Jesus Christ Father forgive them. There's moments
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: after where he says, Father, into your hands, I commit
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: my spirit. The one time Jesus does not address God
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: as Father is in that moment where he's quoting Psalm
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: twenty two. Yeah, but it's nevertheless a real heartache in
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: the midst of real support. I wonder how the church
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: can actually replicate that reality, How in the midst of
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: support we can still give voice to the lament that
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: needs to happen.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it raises a question. I've been thinking about an
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: awful lot with the local church and dealing with some
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: of these issues. Right, you mentioned the telos before, Right,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: this sort of goal that we're shooting for, and sometimes
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: it feels like, I mean, we we're pretty close while
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: we're recording this, we're pretty close to just seeing the
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: There was this whole kerfuffle with Kirk Cameron online where
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: he supposedly did the whole annihilationalism thing, and then you know,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: you just saw the white blood cells of every other
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: YouTuber kind of you know going in and like, no,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: this isn't right. And I was watching that happen and
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: just I was like, this is reactive catechises. We should
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: just know better in general, like how do we not
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: know this? How do we not know this? How is
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: the how have we gotten to a point where people
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: feel the need to react in this way because they're
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: concerned that other Christians aren't going to understand what's going
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: on with this how do we get here? And part
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: of me when when you're saying, like, let's provide this
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: sort of lament, uh, the support with room for a lament,
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: my concern is that we just haven't built ourselves, even
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: early on to provide the appropriate constraints even allow that
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: to happen. We've become a little too our boundaries have
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: become too blurry, right, And so I'm not talking about
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: it tight rigid. You know, you must believe in this
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: exact thing, you know, like give them to Like that's
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: not what I'm saying. But there is an interpretive framework,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: a grid, a teaching off, a sort of feel that
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: would give everyone the boundaries to begin negotiating this in
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: ways that are truly Christian in their thought process, as
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: opposed to just oh man, this person seems to be
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: breaking down. I think they need a counselor right now.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: That may be appropriate to identify at certain points, but
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: other times you're just kind of sitting there, like why
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: can't I just be here in the in the moment
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: with a brother or sister who's really having a difficult time.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure we built ourselves to get there. That's interesting.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the realities. And I'll make this statement that's been
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: made by much more qualified individuals than myself. I don't
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: know if there's exactly a mental health support crisis as
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: much as there is a lack of general community support.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is, you know, within
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: the larger culture, we talked about the mental health crisis,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: and we don't have enough providers like myself, a licensed
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: professional counseers, and so programs like ours here at CiU
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: are just blowing up because so many people want to
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: become counselors. Right again, I'm all for that. Obviously, that's
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: my bread and butter, and so I'm all for that. Yeah,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: and yet I do wonder. Here's the example I would give.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: If you wake up in the morning with a headache, right,
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: and if your first impulse is to call the local neurosurgeon. Okay, listen,
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: you may need to get to that point, right, There
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: may be some something really, but maybe get a drink
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: of water first. Okay, let's bump it up to todd
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: on all maybe you want to go take a walk
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: or Okay, listen, you might need to call your general practitioner. Like,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: there's levels of support. Yeah, before you get to this
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: individual that's at this level.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: I I kind of feel the analogy.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we've gotten to that point where you to what
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: you're saying, James, we haven't developed the supports that should
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: already be embedded in our contexts that we think, well,
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: because I've got this problem over here, I got to
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: go straight to the local expert. Hence we have this
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: backlog of mental health providers who can meet the needs
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: of the moment because so many people are calling the
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: local neurosurgeon when probably what you need to do is
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: get a glass of water. The glass of water is
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: the local church, is the community of saints that has
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: been built as a means of support. Are there times
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: you may need some more clinical expertise help. Absolutely, there
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: are levels that we can engage with that I think
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: give as certain criteria to look at. But I do
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: wonder to your point, is it is it have we
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: failed in developing those early supports.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: It's it's harder.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: It's harder within a especially a Western context that is
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways more performative than supportive.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: When I'll say, like my wife and I got involved
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: with foster care a few years ago, and just as
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: we'd have kids come through, one of the things that
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: I started formulating in my head, I'm like, we're a
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: tent when they need a house.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: That's good.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: So a tent is important right when you're when you're
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: out camping, Like, a tent has utility. There's nothing wrong
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: with a tent, right, but it's got its own sorts
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: of limitations. It's going to protect you for a while,
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: but it's probably not your permanent shelter. And I was
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: thinking to myself, like, we're a tent, right, and so
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: there's only certain things you're going to be able to
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: do as a tent, right, And so what's needed is
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: at a house, right, a more permanent structure that is
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: going to provide a different sort of stability. It's not
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: going to be as mobile, it's going to be far
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: more permanent. You think you're going to stay there much longer, Right,
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: You're not just going to pick up a tent and
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: go to you know, go to another ten or another
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: ten or another tent. Tent's not gonna you know, the
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: tent's gonna wear out well before a house. I think
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: that analogy can apply into some of the things we've
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: done on the local church too, in creating things like
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: small groups and different things like that. Those to me
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: are kind of like tents. They're they're these really important
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: helpful arenas. They're not a house, yea. And so you
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: almost have to have both, like these sojourning moments when
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: you're sort of going around to a different small group,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: or even if you have a smaller community, stall group
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: or something like that, these are still fairly impermanent, right.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: The church is what stands. The small group is is
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: an extension of that church that may morph and change
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: over time. You may have people move out of an area,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: you may you know, but the church is the structure.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: And so we've got to invest in that house, right
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: and build some permanence, some stability, some real durable structures,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: and then allow the small groups to be the tense. Yeah,
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: I think if we have tents without the structure, we're
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: shorting ourselves. That's good, It's there's a million analogies we
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: could use for that, but it's it's this idea that
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: without the durable sort of baselines, you know, you could
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: you could argue like a military metaphor and say, you know,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: without the sort of general orders, if you're sending soldiers out,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: they're not going to know what to do. And I
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: think that's in part what we've got going on. It's
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: this mismatch or asymmetry between durability, true mission, true goal,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: true understanding of God's word, a deep rooted understanding what
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: it means to be a community. But we've still sent
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: people out to execute on something that we haven't been
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: sufficiently clear.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: On are ourselves. That's that's so good? Yeah, they And
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: again we can go too far to be sure, right,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: And I think to some degree that is maybe what
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: individuals like kunker Guard were trying to warn against, right
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: that like, when you consider the organized church of his
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: context and all the supports and pillars that they had,
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: and he's he's trying to rage against the machine, as
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: it were, and say, listen, there is this other element,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: this leap of faith that must be enamored that is
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: not just because of the structures of the church. I
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: think he was right to kind of, you know, be
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: the Danish gadfly, that he was right in being the
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: critique to the realities and yet the verse I was thinking,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: I think it's in one Timothy that the church is
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: the pillar and buttress of truth. Right to use your
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: analogy of a house. Yeah, my parents being from India
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: when they moved to Canada, they saw, like all of
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: our friends going tenting and camping. They're like, what, we
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: came from a country that like is trying to avoid that?
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Why would you pay to be? Like camping was such
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: an unknown reality for my household. I've done it all,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: like you know, I have friends. But to them it
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: was it was that similar mindset, like what why would
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: you willingly go outside to sleep on the ground when
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: we've got this right?
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like what is happening? Yeah?
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: And and remember thinking through like there is something and
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: we talked about this in our last episode. There is
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: there is this responsibility the church has to make these
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: not just supports but proclamations of truth so that when
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: these real questions of existential dread do come, and they
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: will come, and in some degree I think they should come.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: Right when we look at the world we're in, when
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: we look at the constructs that are going on, the
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: systems that are at play, I don't want to say,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: it's a good response, but I think it's a proper
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: response for us to feel this dread, this existential difficulty
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: in light of the realities around us, that that's a
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: a right response in that sense.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's why the church is so.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Important and its proclamation, in its defense and its pillaring
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: buttressing of truth as a means to give the community
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: of God an opportunity to respond accordingly, not easily, but together.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: And I think that's another element of the social component
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: that we've talked about.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: No, I get that. Yeah, it's almost like within the
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: existential component there is an appropriate anxiety and that sort
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: of tension that we feel living in a broken world.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: And yet what we need is we need the church
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: to help us find sort of that non anxious present,
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: to use Freedman's words, right at this moment where it's like, no,
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: we're we're a self differentiated community enough that we understand
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: why all of this is important. We're not denying and
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: trying to pull away from the you know and say
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: you shouldn't care about where you should get your next meal,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: or hey, if your bank accounts at zero, you don't
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: need to worry about that, Right, That's not the point.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: The point is that these existential anxieties exists, they're real,
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: they're many times appropriate for us to feel. But the
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: church is helping us to avoid despair. It's anchoring us
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: to a point where it's like, these existential anxieties can
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: go this far, but no further. And now you have
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: this backstop of the church saying no, we're here, We're
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: here to help. We are your anecdote, we are your community,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: and you get through this together. I think that's kind
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: of an important notion to your point, Like when you
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: wake up with a headache, right, that church is triage.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: It isn't denying that there could be a situation that
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: the church itself can't solve right, and that there might
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: need to be additional expertise brought in, additional resource brought in,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: additional whatever brought in. But there needs to be this
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: sort of baseline community that is helping to manage some
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: of that. And if that's where we've lost, we need
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: to rethink.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: We need to regain that ground.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: We need to regain that ground.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: There are a number of times in clinical counseling context
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: when I'm working with an individual.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: One on one, Yeah.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: One very thankful that they're willing to see counseling too,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: that they've showed up and want to deal proactively with
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: the struggles they have. I'm all for that, yeah, and
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: yet at times there's part of me, especially if and
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: when they are a believer, they have a faith community,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: that I'm thinking, Oh, man, I would love to just
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: put you in a contact in a church, in a
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: community that I think can address all these issues you're
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: dealing with on my couch. I'm thankful you're on my couch,
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: but man, I think it'd be so much better because
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: not only is it just me giving an opportunity both
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: for voicing and responding. Meaning is solidified in community, Right,
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: we were looking for meaning and shared meaning in the
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: contracts specifically of the church has an ability to to
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: solidify it in ways that both encourage and challenge. Right,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: it's not just one on one, it's one with many,
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: and that carries with it all kinds of frustrations too,
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: that I've got to deal with a bunch of other
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: people that aren't perfect like me, obviously, but right, nevertheless,
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: so much better that the shared meaning creates actually greater
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: strength and resilience in the midst of that existential dread.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well let's put a pin in it there. We'll
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: talk on the next episode a little bit more about
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: this idea of you know, sadness as a rational response
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: and what does it really look like, because I think
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: we're diving into it, we're getting the heart of this
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: existential crisis and it does I think your point, meaning
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: making occurs within community is a crucial aspect of this,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: and so let's continue this conversation in the next episode.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: But this has been great. Really appreciate you being here, Ben,
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: and appreciate everybody listening. So we'll catch you on the
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: next episode of Thinking Christian. Here. I just want to
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: take a second to thank the team at Life Audio
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got
• 36:13
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