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Mega Edition: Leon Black And His Epstein Related Congressional Transcript (10/11/26) · The Vault: The Epstein Files

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. On Friday, June 26, Leon Black stormed out
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: of a meeting with Congress. So in this episode, we're
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: going to start taking a look at the partial transcript
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: that was recorded before he stormed out. So with that said,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: let's dive right in. Ms. Brignac, this is a transcribed
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: interview of Mr. Leon Black conducted by the House Committee
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: on Oversight and Government Reform on under the authority granted
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: to it pursuant to House Rule 10. Accordingly, House Rule
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  Speaker 1: 10 grants the committee broad jurisdiction for the committee to
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  Speaker 1: conduct investigations of any matter at any time. This interview
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: was requested by Chairman James Comer as part of the
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: committee's investigation into the circumstances and subsequent investigations into the
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: crimes of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. The operation of
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: sex trafficking rings and ways for the federal government to
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: effectively combat them the ways in which Mr. Epstein and Ms.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Maxwell sought to curry favor and exercise influence to protect
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: their illegal activity, and potential violations of ethic rules related
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: to elected officials. Can the witness please state his name
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  Speaker 1: and spell his name for the record? Leon Black. Spells
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: his name. Ms. Brignac, thank you. I want to thank Mr.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Black for appearing here today. My name is Brittany Brignac,
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  Speaker 1: and I'm a senior counsel for Chairman James Comer. Under
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  Speaker 1: the Committee on Oversight and Government Reforms Rules, You're allowed
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  Speaker 1: to have counsel present to advise you during this interview.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Do you have counsel representing you in a personal capacity
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  Speaker 1: present with you today? Mr. Black, yes, I do. Ms. Brignac,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: will all counsels please identify themselves for the record? Susan
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Estrich representing Mr. Black. Aaron Cutler representing Mr. Black from
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  Speaker 1: Hogan Lovells. Mr. Spivak. Peter Spivak representing Mr. Black. Ms. Brignac.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: For the record, starting with the majority staff, can the
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: additional staff members please introduce themselves with their name, title,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: and affiliation? All right, we're going to skip all of that,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: and we're going to move to the point where Ms.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Brignac asks him if he understands everything that she was saying. Question, Ms. Brignac.
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  Speaker 1: There's a court reporter taking down everything I say and
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  Speaker 1: everything you say to make a written record of the interview.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: For the record, to be clear, please wait until the
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: staffer questioning you finishes each question immediately. before you begin
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  Speaker 1: your answer, and the staffer will wait until you finish
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: your response before proceeding to the next question. Further, to
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  Speaker 1: ensure the court reporter can properly record this interview, please
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: speak clearly, concisely, and slowly. Also, the court reporter cannot
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: record nonverbal answers, such as nodding or shaking your head. So,
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  Speaker 1: it's important that you answer each question with an audible
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  Speaker 1: verbal answer. Exhibits may be entered into the record. Majority
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: exhibits will be identified numerically. Minority exhibits will be identified alphabetically.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Do you understand? Mr. Black, I do. Ms. Brignac, we
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  Speaker 1: want you to answer our questions in the most complete
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  Speaker 1: and truthful manner possible, so we'll take our time. If
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: you have any questions or do not fully understand the question,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: please let us know. We will attempt to clarify, add
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: context to it, or rephrase our questions. If we ask
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: about specific conversations or events in the past, and you're
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: unable to recall the exact words or details... you should
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: testify to the substance of the conversation or events to
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  Speaker 1: the best of your recollection. If you only recall a
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: part of the conversation or event, you should give us
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: your best recollection of those events or parts of conversations
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: that you do recall. Do you understand? Mr. Black, I do. Ms. Brignac,
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  Speaker 1: although you were here voluntarily, you're required by law pursuant
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  Speaker 1: to Title 18 of the U.S. Code Section 1001 to
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  Speaker 1: answer questions from Congress truthfully. This also applies to questions
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: posed by congressional staff in this interview. Do you understand? Mr. Black,
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  Speaker 1: I do. Ms. Brignac, if at any time you knowingly
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: make false statements, you can be subject to criminal prosecution.
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  Speaker 1: Do you understand? Mr. Black, I do. Ms. Brignac, this
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  Speaker 1: includes both knowingly providing false testimony, but also stating that
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  Speaker 1: you do not recall or remember something when in fact
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  Speaker 1: that you do. Do you understand? Mr. Black, yes. Ms. Brignac, furthermore.
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  Speaker 1: You cannot tell half-truths or exclude information necessary to make
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: statements accurate. You're required to provide all information that would
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  Speaker 1: make your response truthful. A deliberate failure to disclose information
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  Speaker 1: can constitute a false statement. Do you understand? Mr. Black,
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  Speaker 1: I do. Ms. Brignac, is there any reason you're unable
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  Speaker 1: to provide truthful testimony in today's interview? Mr. Black, no. Ms. Brignac,
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  Speaker 1: please note that if you wish to assert a privilege
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: over any statement today, That assertion must comply with the
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  Speaker 1: rules of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. Pursuant
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  Speaker 1: to that, Committee Rule 16c1 states for the Chair to
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  Speaker 1: consider assertions of privilege over testimony or statements. Witnesses or
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  Speaker 1: entities must clearly state the specific privilege being asserted and
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  Speaker 1: the reason for the assertion on or before the scheduled
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  Speaker 1: date of testimony or appearance. Do you understand? Mr. Black,
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  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, can you repeat the last clause? Brignac, yes.
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  Speaker 1: 16C1 states, for the chair to consider assertions of privilege
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  Speaker 1: over testimony or statements, witnesses or entities must clearly state
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  Speaker 1: the specific privilege being asserted and the reason for the
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  Speaker 1: assertion on or before the scheduled date of testimony or appearance.
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  Speaker 1: Do you understand? Mr. Black, yes. Ms. Brignac, ordinarily we
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: take a five-minute break at the end of each hour
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  Speaker 1: of questioning, but if you need longer or a break
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  Speaker 1: before that, please let us know and we'll be happy
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  Speaker 1: to accommodate. However, to the extent that there is a
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  Speaker 1: pending question, we would ask that you finish answering the
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  Speaker 1: question before we take a break. Do you understand? Mr. Black,
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  Speaker 1: I do. Ms. Brignac, do you have any other questions
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  Speaker 1: before we begin? Mr. Black, the only question I have
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  Speaker 1: is the questions that are addressed to me will only
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  Speaker 1: be by the people at the table or not everybody here?
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  Speaker 1: I'm a little hard of hearing. That's only so if
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  Speaker 1: people can speak up, I have hearing aids. Ms. Brignac, absolutely. Mr. Black,
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  Speaker 1: thank you. Miss Brignac, we'll do our best to accommodate that,
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  Speaker 1: thank you. Mr. Black, thank you, okay. And now Mr.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Grant jumps in. And we've had a couple of additional
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  Speaker 1: members join us. Could they please introduce themselves for the record?
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  Speaker 1: Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico. Dave Minn, California. Miss Brignac, I understand, Mr. Black,
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  Speaker 1: you have an opening statement that you'd like to read
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  Speaker 1: into the record. You can do so now. Mr. Black,
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  Speaker 1: thank you very much. Chairman Comer, Ranking Member Garcia, Committee Members,
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  Speaker 1: and committee staff, I come here today voluntarily to set
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  Speaker 1: the record straight about my relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, and
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  Speaker 1: in particular, why I paid him the money that I did.
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  Speaker 1: I knew Epstein for 18 years before I paid him
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  Speaker 1: a dime. When I first met Epstein in the mid-90s,
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  Speaker 1: he was on the board of Rockefeller University, the greatest
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  Speaker 1: scientific research institution in the world, and also on the
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  Speaker 1: boards of the Council on Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission.
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  Speaker 1: His network included respected luminaries such as David Rockefeller, Ehud Barak,
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  Speaker 1: who had been Prime Minister of Israel, Larry Summers, George Mitchell,
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  Speaker 1: Bill Richardson, and Ace Greenberg. By the time I first
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  Speaker 1: paid Epstein in 2013, I knew him to possess an
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  Speaker 1: unrivaled network of relationships with individuals in finance, academia, science, politics,
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  Speaker 1: and more, including Deepak Chopra, Tom Barak, Tom Pritzker, Reid Hoffman,
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  Speaker 1: Kathy Rumler, who had been President Obama's personal attorney, Elon Musk,
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  Speaker 1: Sergey Brin, Bill Gates, President Bill Clinton, Peter Thiel, Steve Bannon,
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  Speaker 1: Ariane de Rothschild, Eric Handel, who's a Nobel Prize winner,
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  Speaker 1: Leon Botstein, who's the head of Bard College, and numerous
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  Speaker 1: eminent scientists as well, with many financial institutions. I also
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  Speaker 1: knew him to possess a remarkable acumen about tax, insurance,
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  Speaker 1: and trust, and estate matters. I paid Epstein for his
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  Speaker 1: bona fide advice on these matters in addition to helping
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  Speaker 1: to manage and improve the operation of my nascent family office.
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  Speaker 1: With the benefit of hindsight, I now know, so does
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  Speaker 1: the world, that Epstein engaged in horrific sordid activities. I
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  Speaker 1: feel terrible for Epstein's victims. I want to state clearly
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  Speaker 1: that I did not know about his nefarious activity until
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  Speaker 1: Epstein was charged with trafficking in July of 2019. I
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  Speaker 1: did know that Epstein pleaded guilty in June of 2008
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  Speaker 1: to state charges relating to prostitution involving a minor. Epstein
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  Speaker 1: had told me that it was an isolated incident resulting
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  Speaker 1: from a fake ID. Five years after his conviction, I
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  Speaker 1: gave Epstein a second chance, as did many others. I
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  Speaker 1: wish I had not. With that context, let me state
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  Speaker 1: unequivocally that I have never abused a woman. I have
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  Speaker 1: never been with an underage woman. I have never engaged
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  Speaker 1: in sex trafficking. I have never paid Epstein for access
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  Speaker 1: to women. I was never blackmailed by Epstein. I was
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  Speaker 1: not involved with and had no knowledge of any of
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  Speaker 1: Epstein's heinous conduct. My background? I'm almost 75 years old.
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  Speaker 1: I'm a husband, a father, and a grandfather. I am
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  Speaker 1: proudly Jewish. My father was a rabbi before becoming a businessman.
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  Speaker 1: My mother was a schoolteacher and also an artist. My
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  Speaker 1: sister was a schoolteacher. Thank you. and now my grandchildren.
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  Speaker 1: I'm also a business builder, an investor, an art connoisseur,
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  Speaker 1: and a philanthropist. I'm a self-made businessman who's experienced much
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  Speaker 1: good fortune, and I have personally paid billions of dollars
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  Speaker 1: in taxes on the federal, state, and local level. When
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  Speaker 1: the first news accounts called out millions I had paid
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  Speaker 1: to Epstein, I was chairman and CEO of Apollo Global Management,
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  Speaker 1: which I had founded and built for 30 years. I'm
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  Speaker 1: proud of the work that I did with many others
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  Speaker 1: at Apollo to invest and support companies in America and
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  Speaker 1: the world. I helped to create numerous businesses that are
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  Speaker 1: responsible for providing hundreds of thousands of good, well-paying jobs
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  Speaker 1: that American families depend on to pay their bills and
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  Speaker 1: realize their dreams. Apollo also invested hundreds of billions of
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  Speaker 1: dollars in the American economy, including billions of dollars for
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  Speaker 1: labor union pension funds, which return billions of dollars to
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  Speaker 1: fund the retirements for millions of workers. The reason that
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  Speaker 1: I'm here today is because of my unfortunate connections to Epstein,
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  Speaker 1: a man we all know now to be reprehensible. I
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  Speaker 1: severed my connection to Epstein in 2018 after more than
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  Speaker 1: a year of increasing turmoil in our professional agreements. After
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  Speaker 1: Epstein's arrest in 2019, we all came to know more
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  Speaker 1: about the demonic life that he was leading. It was
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  Speaker 1: a life I knew nothing about. In 2020, I asked
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  Speaker 1: for and fully cooperated with an independent investigation into my
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  Speaker 1: relationship with Epstein, because I had nothing to hide. Well-respected
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  Speaker 1: former prosecutors from the Southern District of New York, who
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  Speaker 1: were at the Deckert law firm, spent three months examining 60,000
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  Speaker 1: documents and interviewing over 20,000 people. They had no limitations,
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  Speaker 1: no restrictions, and full access to all financial records and correspondence.
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  Speaker 1: Their questions on behalf of of an independent committee of
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  Speaker 1: Apollo's board of directors, answerable to the shareholders and limited
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  Speaker 1: partners of Apollo, were straightforward. How much did I pay Epstein?
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  Speaker 1: What did Epstein do on my behalf? Did he work
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  Speaker 1: for Apollo at my behest? Did I know about the
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  Speaker 1: behavior that led to Epstein's arrest in 2019? The Deckert
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  Speaker 1: Law Firm issued a report in 2021 that answered each
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  Speaker 1: of these questions. The report was filed by Apollo as
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  Speaker 1: a public securities disclosure. The fact of the matter is
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  Speaker 1: that I am the only person in Epstein's orbit, including
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  Speaker 1: all the individuals who have been called to appear before
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  Speaker 1: this committee, who have been the subject of an independent
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  Speaker 1: investigation made at my request, wherein the results were made public.
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  Speaker 1: The Deckard report concluded that I had paid Epstein $ 158 million,
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  Speaker 1: and Deckard examined the services Epstein rendered and determined that
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  Speaker 1: Epstein performed highly valuable and legitimate tax and estate planning
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  Speaker 1: services for my family office. that the tax work was
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: responsible for billions of dollars in savings, and that all
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  Speaker 1: of Epstein's work had been vetted by reputable law and
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  Speaker 1: accounting firms. Deckert also found that Apollo never retained or
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  Speaker 1: did business with Epstein. The Deckert report also determined that
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  Speaker 1: I had no awareness of or involvement in any of
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  Speaker 1: Epstein's criminal activities. The rank speculation about me was proven
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  Speaker 1: to be just that, rank speculation. As I said earlier,
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  Speaker 1: I knew Epstein, I knew about his plea deal, which
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: appeared to me, and most other observers, and consistent with
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: a relative lenient sentence, to have involved an isolated incident.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: Epstein appeared to me and so many others to have
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  Speaker 1: redeemed himself. He served on several prestigious boards, hobnobbed with
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  Speaker 1: leading people in academia, the arts, business executives, and numerous
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  Speaker 1: world leaders. And Epstein solved a massive estate problem for
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  Speaker 1: me that none of the experts and lawyers I consulted
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  Speaker 1: With had been able to solve. It was a problem
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  Speaker 1: that would have destroyed enormous value for my family and
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  Speaker 1: also in Apollo, the company I had founded. Epstein also
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  Speaker 1: told me that the fees I was paying him were
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: tax deductible 60 cent on the dollar, which I only
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: learned years later was not true. What I believe to
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: be 95 million of net fees paid to him over
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: five years was actually 158 million. but at the time,
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: I was led to believe by Epstein that I was
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: paying 60 cents on the dollar. That assurance was subsequently
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: proved to be false. With hindsight, I now see that
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Epstein exaggerated, embellished, manipulated, and outright lied prolifically, and without
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  Speaker 1: concern for me or my family, and now I see
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  Speaker 1: that his deceit was not limited to me, but also
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: extended to numerous, highly sophisticated individuals. Epstein took credit for
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: other people's ideas and He falsely claimed to have been
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: involved in decisions, in my decisions, about investments. He asserted
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: that he had influence over me. He said false and
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: vicious things about my wife and children. He duped and deceived,
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  Speaker 1: and he did so repeatedly. In short, with the Epstein
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: files release, I now appreciate the full extent to which
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Epstein was a despicable individual and an inadvertent liar. This
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: was a side of him I did not know. I
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: knew Jekyll. I didn't know Hyde. Ultimately, in 2018, I
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: fired Epstein after growing tired of his relentless pursuit of
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: more and more money from me for professional service. His
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: mistruths and misrepresentations regarding the 60 cent fee payments and
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: his failure to repay most of the $ 30 million demanded
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: loan that I had made of him. I would have
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: expected that the conclusion in the Deckert report would have
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: definitively answered the questions about my involvement with Jeffrey Epstein,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: but that has not been the case. and the release
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: of the Justice Department files has only added fuel to
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: the burning conspiracies and falsities that are at the core
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: of speculation about Epstein. I understand that, and I understand
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: why people are upset, but I don't understand why people,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: including members of this committee, would accept baseless speculation about
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: me with regard to the facts and spin such ugly
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: and vicious narratives that are demonstrably false. I've been very
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: publicly sued three times, by a single law firm by
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: three women claiming ties to Epstein and making horrific allegations
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: about me. This law firm, the Wigdor Law Firm, brought
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: these allegations in Manhattan to the DA and the Department
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: of Justice. I'm told that there are intake forms that
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: appear in the Justice Department files with heinous, fabricated allegations
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: generated by this firm about me. The media raced to
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: cover these sensational allegations, taking them at face value, without
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: conducting any investigation, or undertaking even minimal diligence. As a
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: result of this torrent of lies and misrepresentations, I have
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: received death threats and my family now feels unsafe. For
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: the first time in my life, I've had to deploy
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: a bodyguard. But those lawsuits were demonstrably baseless, and those
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: allegations were entirely fabricated. Of the three lawsuits that were filed,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: the first two have been dismissed, with prejudice. That means
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: those lawsuits can never be brought again, as the first
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: plaintiff never met Epstein, and her claims were wholly without merit.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: I never even met the second plaintiff. In the third lawsuit,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: a Democratic federal district judge, appointed by President Biden last month,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: issued a remarkable 76-page ruling sanctioning the plaintiff, the lawyer,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: and the law firm in question for outright lying and
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: submitting false and fraudulent evidence. The plaintiff in that case
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: had testified under oath, incredibly, that she gave birth to
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: four of Epstein's children, three of whom were kidnapped at birth.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: She fabricated a journal where she made a fantastical claim
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: that she was raped by 50 different men when she
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: was in high school, including a former president and multiple
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: cabinet members. She claimed to be a 16-year-old autistic woman
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: with Mosaic Down Syndrome. Meanwhile, the law firm in question
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: was expressly warned about filing that she was a fraud
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: by class counsel, but they still proceeded to rely on
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: her claims, knowing that they were entirely manufactured. Another federal judge,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: has found on the record that the plaintiff is not credible.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: To be clear, I categorically deny the baseless and fabricated
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: allegations in that case and in the other two lawsuits
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  Speaker 1: that were filed against me and that have now been dismissed. Today,
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: one of the lawyers at that firm who spearheaded this
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: malicious campaign to destroy me has been retired, in quotes,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: and the firm has been sanctioned, but the media coverage
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: of the dismissals has been dwarfed by the initial baseless
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: and salacious coverage. Meanwhile, extraordinary damage has been done to
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: me and my family. In conclusion, I wish I never
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: met Epstein. I regret ever doing business with him. My
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: association with him, the frivolous but destructive litigation, the endless
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: rumor mill have created a toxic environment for my wife
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: and family, which I deeply regret. I will not add
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: to that toxic environment today. I'm here voluntarily to answer
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: questions about the work that Epstein did for me and
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: for the services for which I paid him. I'm not
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: here to answer questions about my personal life, which would
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: be hurtful to my wife, children, and family. And I
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: will not speak about the personal lives of adult women
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: who have chosen and do not deserve to be connected
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: by me or anyone else to Epstein. This is an
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: opportunity for me and for my family to move forward
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: with the productive and beneficial work that should be consuming us.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Our commitment to advance worthy causes for society. We have
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: made more than half a billion dollars in philanthropic gifts
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: in several key areas, including funding health research, highlighted by
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: the Melanoma Research Alliance, of which we are the founders
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: and largest donors. The MRA has been at the vanguard
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: of the immunotherapy revolution that has energized the entire field
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: of oncology and created a new paradigm for how over
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: 30 cancers in millions of patients are treated. We also
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: support organizations that help women in need. We support veterans
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: and a program for loan forgiveness for mental health care
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: workers in New York City public health system. Also of
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: importance to us is our support for Jewish causes and
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: the effort to end the scourge of anti-Semitism spreading across
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: the globe. And we continue to be active in giving
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: support to academia and the arts. I am a proud American.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: We live in a great country where all things are possible.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: I'm hopeful that the committee will find my voluntary testimony useful.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Thank you. With that background, I'm glad to take your questions.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: All right, everybody, we're going to wrap up right there.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: going to pick up where we left off. All the
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: information that goes with this episode can be found in
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: the description box. What's up everyone and welcome to another
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode we're going
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: to pick up where we left off with the Leon
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Black interview with Congress. Ms. Brignac, question Mr. Black. Let's
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: begin by discussing your background. Where were you born? Answer
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: New York City. Question what year were you born? Answer 1951.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Question what's your marital status? Answer I've been married for
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: 45 years. 44 years, as of last week. Question, and
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: who is your wife? Answer, my wife is Deborah Black. Question,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: and you have children, correct? Answer, I have four children. Question,
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: what's your educational background? Answer, I grew up in New
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: York City, went to Fieldston High School, went to Dartmouth College,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: and I went to Harvard Business School. Question, and we'll
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: go into more detail later, but for now, can you
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: briefly describe your professional career? And so my professional career
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: is I spent 13 years at the investment bank known
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: as Drexel Burnham Lambert. I was the head of mergers
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: and acquisitions department. And there was a corporate finance department there.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: When Drexel collapsed in the early 90s, I founded Apollo
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Global Management and was the chairman and CEO for almost
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: 31 years. I left. I retired there five years ago, basically.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: And I've been running our family office called Elysium. Question,
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: when did you begin to work with Elysium? Answer, well,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: I started Elysium while I was still at Apollo. But
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: when I retired from Apollo, it kind of amped up. Question,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: what year did you begin your work with Elysium? Answer,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: I don't remember the specific year, but that family office
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: was in existence probably for three or four years while
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: I was still chairman of Apollo. Question, thank you. Tell
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: me about the first time you interacted with Jeffrey Epstein. Answer,
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: I met Epstein... In the mid-90s, either 95 or 96,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: at a lunch that I was having with a mutual
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: friend of ours, which he then joined. That's when I
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: first met him, and that was in New York City
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: in the mid-90s. Question, who was the mutual friend? Answer,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: it was a man named Skip Stein, Elliot Stein. Question,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: how did you know Mr. Stein? Answer, I had known Mr.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: Stein for many years. He was an investor. He's a friend. Question,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: what was his relationship to Mr. Epstein? Answer, I think
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: they were friends also. Question, how did you know that? Answer,
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: because he joined a lunch and said, this is my friend,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein, that I want you to meet. Question, did
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: you know Mr. Epstein would be going to the lunch before? Answer, no. Question,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: what was the reason for him bringing Mr. Epstein to
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: the lunch? Answer, I think he thought I would find
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: him an interesting person. Question, who else was present? Answer,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: no one. Question, what was discussed at the lunch? Answer,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: I don't remember. This was 30 years ago. It was
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: the first meeting or introduction to a person. I don't
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: recall at all what was being discussed. Question, was the
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: purpose of the lunch to meet Mr. Epstein? Answer, not
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: to my knowledge. I have no idea. Question, do you
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: recall if it was a friendly lunch or the nature
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: of the topics that were discussed? I think it was
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: a totally friendly lunch, Leon Black replies. And I just
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: don't remember what was discussed. Question, why do you say
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: it was totally friendly? Answer, because... It was a friend
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: of Mr. Stein who said I'd like you to meet
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: a friend of mine. He sat down, joined us, and
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: I didn't really think much about it. But there was
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: nothing unfriendly about it. Question. I asked you about the
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: nature of the topics and you said it was friendly.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: So was it personal? Answer. I'm telling you, I don't
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: recall what conversation was about from 30 years ago. Question. Okay.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: What did you know about Mr. Epstein prior to this lunch? Answer. Zero. Question.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Did you hear any rumors about him? Answer. Not that
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: I can recall. He was an absolutely new person that
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: a friend of mine said he was friends with and
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: was interesting, period. Question, did you do any background research
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: before meeting him? Answer, I didn't know I was going
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: to meet him, as I told you, so how could
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: I have done background research? Question, what was your impressions
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: of him? Answer, smart, that's all. Question, what did you
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: understand his job to be? Answer, I didn't understand his
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: job to be. I understood that he was somebody that
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Skip was introducing me to. I mean, if somebody had
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: joined you for dinner, and they brought along a friend,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: it wasn't that I had any understanding of him at
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: the time. Question, did you ever discover what his job
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: was before seeking advice from him? Answer, well, that's a
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: different question, because I asked advice years later, and during
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: that period, I did learn a lot more about him.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: As I read my opening statement, I learned that he
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: was involved with a lot of prestigious institutions. As I
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: said my opening statement, I was impressed that he was
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: on the board of Rockefeller University, put on that board
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: by David Rockefeller, who was extremely esteemed and respected, and
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: the institution was extremely esteemed and respected. He was also
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: on the Council of Foreign Relations. He was also on
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: the Trilateral Commission. I learned over time that he had
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: a pretty interesting network. I also learned that he was
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: very smart about tax and estate matters in terms of, yeah, Mr. Grant, question,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: and obviously you came to learn this stuff about Mr. Epstein.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: So you met him at his lunch in 95, around there?
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: So when did you begin to actually learn about Mr.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Epstein and his past and what he did for a living?
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Did that take a couple years? Did it take a
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: few months? When would you have been doing that, ballpark range? Black,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: I don't remember. I learned that he had been a
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: math teacher. I learned Dalton School. I learned that he
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: was very friendly with Ace Greenberg and Jimmy Cane. who
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: were the chairs and president of Bear Stearns, and that
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: he worked at Bear Stearns, and therefore had some kind
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: of financial sophistication. I learned that they were very friendly
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: with him, and that they liked him. And then, over time,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: I also learned that he had relationships with people in
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: the government. He was good friends with Ehud Barak, who
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: had been former Prime Minister of Israel. And actually, I
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: hired Ehud Barak as consultant for Apollo for two years,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: retained him to handle global consultancy. So, I would say
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: I met him, really, through Epstein, I learned that he
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: was a good friend with Larry Summers, who had been
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: the Treasury Secretary. He had relationships, as I mentioned in
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: the opening statement, with George Mitchell, with Bill Richardson. He
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: seemed to be very knowledgeable, more and more about estate planning.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: And as I said, I never retained him until 18
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: years after I had met him. So there was a
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: lot of meetings that I had in the interim before
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: I did. Ms. Brignac, so Mr. Black, it sounds like
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: you understood he was well-connected. Did you understand him to
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: be wealthy? Answer, I understood him to be an advisor
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: to wealthy families. I knew he had worked for Les
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: Wexner at the Limited for many years. I knew later
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: that he worked for the Rothschild family, but I don't
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: think I knew that earlier on. When you're asking about,
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: he basically said he had done tax work and estate
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: planning for half a dozen or so families, but was
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: not at liberty to tell me other than Wexner. Question,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: and you listed quite a lot of information about him.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: How did you come to learn all that information after
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: meeting him at the lunch? Answer, I think a lot
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: of it came from him. Oftentimes when I spent time
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: with him, he also had other people coming to the meetings.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: He actually introduced me to a lot of interesting people
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: over the years. You have to understand. And this is
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: something right now, and by the way, I should say,
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: I'm in no way defending him. But clearly everything that's
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: known about him in the last five years is that
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: this was a horrific, reprehensible criminal pedophile. But in those
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: earlier years, before any of that was known, he was
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: also a very interesting person. He had dinners. He'd have
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: cocktails for three or four people. He'd call me up
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: and say, hey, I'm having this Nobel Prize winner over
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: for a drink. You want to join? You'll find him interesting.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Why don't you meet this fellow Larson from Norway who
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: helped put together the Oslo Accords? I think you'll find
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: him interesting. He had a dinner for Woody Allen and
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Dick Cavett. Did I want to join? He had something
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: for magicians, where he had three of the world's most
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: famous magicians there. If you're around, would you like to join?
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: That's where I met Bill Gates. He brought him up
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: to my office to talk about philanthropy for two hours.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: That's where I met Elon Musk. That's where I met
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Deepak Chopra. This was somebody who had interesting Rolodex in
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: many different areas, whether it be science, whether it be academia,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: whether it be politics, government, or business. So when you say,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: how did I learn? I learned oftentimes by being there
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: at the meetings. Whether it was with Kathy Rumler, whether
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: it was with Steve Bannon, whether it was with Larry Summers. Question,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: it sounds like you admired a Mr. Black. Answer, I
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: said I don't want to look like I was defending him.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: I'm not. Given with hindsight, that's what we all knew
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: about him. But what we don't know about him is
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: that he was also an interesting person, quite a lot,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: a network of interesting people. Question, how did your relationship
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: develop over the years? Are there years that were closer
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: than others? Answer, I don't know how to answer that.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: I think it was progressive. When you know somebody for
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: 25 years, you know them more than when you meet them. Question,
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: how often did you communicate with them? Answer, I communicated
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: with them in the early years, not that much. When
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: I became convinced that he had done a lot for
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: the family, Les Wexner's family, I also asked him to
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: be involved in putting together my family foundation. So we
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: talked a little bit about that. That would have been
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: in the early 2000s. Question, who told you about this
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: work with Wexner? Answer, he did. Question, what did he
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: tell you? Answer, that he was, had been very involved
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: with him and that he managed a lot of his
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: strategies and tax estate planning and he was pretty intimately
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: involved with him. Question, and back at the lunch, did
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: you exchange contact information from there? Answer, which lunch? Question,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: the lunch where you met Epstein. Did you exchange contact information? Answer,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it was exchanged. I certainly knew
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: that if I wanted to get in touch with him,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: I could go through skip. So I had no idea
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: whether we exchanged information. I just don't have memory of that. Question,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: what was the typical method of your communication with him
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: throughout the years? Was it through associates of yours? Was
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: it directly? Answer, I think there was some texting. I
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: didn't email. He was a rabid emailer, as you know
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: with 4 million emails that are in the Epstein files
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: that have been downloaded, but I never emailed. But I
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: did receive emails. That's why when I mentioned the Deckert report,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: they reviewed 60,000 emails, and that usually came through my assistant,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: who then printed out the emails for me. Question, which
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: associates of yours would communicate with Mr. Epstein? Answer, well,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: I had a family office, as I mentioned, a nascent
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: family office, where I had a number of associates in it,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: who were people in the tax department and accounting department
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: and in legal handling trusts. I think they all had
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: communications with him. Question, Mr. Black, you brought up the
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Deckard report. Can you explain what the Deckard report is? Answer,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: of course. Deckard is a major law firm run by
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Andy Lavander, whose background is a prosecutor. And when the
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: New York Times in, I think, the fall of 2020
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: wrote a story that I had paid Epstein $ 50 to
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: $ 75 million for professional services, It became a big PR event.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: And since Apollo dealt with many investors, including investors from
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: public pension funds, state pension funds, sovereign accounts, I felt
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: that we ought to, as a firm, and that me
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: as a person, the chairman and CEO of the firm,
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: should address the questions that were brought up through that story.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: So I went to the independent committee on the board,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: the board members, and requested that they go out and
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: retain an independent law firm to examine my relationship with Epstein.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: because as I said in the opening statement, I had
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: nothing to hide. And so Deckert spent three to four
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: months reviewing 60,000 documents. They had no restrictions on them.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: It was no holds barred. I fully cooperated with that,
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: as did 20 other people that they interviewed to write
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: a report to the board. The Deckert report found a
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: number of things. They found that I paid them not
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: 50 to 70 million, but that I paid them 158
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: million over a five-year period, from 2013 through 2017, and
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: that it was all for legitimate business purposes, that he
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: had saved me between $ 1 billion and $ 2 billion, that
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: it was all vetted, everything he did, by major law
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: and accounting firms, and that what I paid him, on
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: an after-tax basis, which is what I believed it was,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: as I mentioned was akin to 5% commission on what
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: he had saved me. And it also found, importantly, that
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: I had no knowledge of or did not participate with
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: any of his criminal behavior. All right, folks, we're going
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: to wrap up right there. And in the next episode
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: we left off. All the information that goes with this
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone?
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to pick up where you left
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: off with Leon Black and the transcript from his meeting
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: with Congress. Question. Mr. Black, I'm going to ask at
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: this stage that you try to be respectful of our
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: time and your own. We do want to get you
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: out of here at a reasonable hour, and we have
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: a lot of questions. So I'm going to ask that
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: you answer the questions that I'm asking you. You mentioned
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: an independent. Black cuts her off. Didn't I just do
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: that when you asked me? What was the Deckert report? Question,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: excuse me? Mr. Cutler, he did. He answered the question. Ms. Brignac,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: thank you. Just wanted to make a note. Ms. Brignac,
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: you mentioned an independent committee. Who are the members of
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: this conflict committee? Answer, one was Buzzy... Krongrad, who had
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: been either, he was the head of the bank in Baltimore,
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: had been on a number of boards for many years,
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: and he was either the number two or number three
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: at CIA. Number one. Number two. There was a man
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: named Ducey, who had been the chair of Apollo Company, earlier,
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: that had been subsequently sold. And three, there was a woman,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: oh my goodness, having a senior moment. Question, Pauline Richards,
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: answer yes. Mr. Black. Answer. Who was involved? I think
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: in the Caribbean island. And she had been. She was
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: pretty sophisticated from a financial point of view. Question. Have
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: any of those members you listed have any association with
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein? Answer. Not that I'm aware of. Question. Were
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: you involved in any way in Apollo's decision to hire Deckert? Answer. No,
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: I was not. Question. You mentioned Andy. Andrew Lavander led
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: the investigation. Is that correct? Answer. Yes. Question. How did
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: you meet Mr. Lavander? Answer. I didn't really know Mr. Lavander.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: He led and interviewed me, I know as part of
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: the investigation. Question, are you aware that Mr. Lavander is
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: reported to have known Mr. Epstein when he was an
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: assistant U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: in the 80s? Answer, no. Question, were you aware of
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: any relationship between Mr. Lavander and Mr. Epstein? Answer, no. Question,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: upon hearing what I just said, do you find it
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: concerning that Mr. Lavander had a relationship with Mr. Epstein? Answer, no. Why?
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: What was the relationship? Question. Question. Question. Question. Question. Had
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: an investigation or had a relationship with Mr. Epstein to
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: conduct your investigation of your ties with Mr. Epstein? Answer,
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: I find it impossible to answer your question without knowing
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: the nature of that relationship. Question, do you find the
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: fact that they had a relationship concerning? Answer, no, I don't.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: I don't. If they were good friends, then it would
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: be concerning. If he had investigated Epstein for something prior
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: years before, then I don't find it concerning. But you
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: need to, I mean, it's difficult to answer that question
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: without knowing the nature of what the relationship was. Question,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: did any members of the conflict committee personally benefit from
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: your name being cleared of wrongdoing by the Deckert report? Answer, no. Question,
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: do you know Earl Nemser, an attorney for Deckert? Answer, no. Question, okay.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Returning to your relationship with Mr. Epstein, did you socialize
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: with Mr. Epstein in a personal capacity? Answer, well, I
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: just told you that. Well... Why don't I elaborate? Thank
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: you for asking the question. I knew Mr. Epstein basically
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: in two ways. One, he performed professional services for my
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: family office. That included helping put together the family office,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: which was making a lot of mistakes because, as I said,
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: it was kind of nascent, but also with a lot
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: of beneficial tax and estate planning services. I also knew him,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: as I said, because he had extraordinary Rolodex of people
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: in many fields. And as I said, if you want
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: to call that social, I guess that would be social.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: When he called and said, would you like to meet
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: this interesting person? Or during UN week, where dozens of
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: people from all over the world would come to his
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: townhouse and say, would you like to join us? You'll
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: find these people interesting. I did. So from that point
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: of view, I guess you could say I socialized because
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: I met scientists through him. I met people involved in
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: government through him and business because I went over and
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: joined them for a drink at the townhouse when they
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: were there. So from that point of view, I would
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: say it was dual. One, it was professional. And two,
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: I enjoy taking advantage of all the network of interesting
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: people that he knew. Question, what is the Deborah and
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Leon Black Family Foundation? Answer, I'm not sure. I think
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: it was something set up early. There have been many.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: There have been an evolution of a lot of names.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: We have a few billion dollars today and we're involved
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: with philanthropy, but it started off smaller. But we've always
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: been interested in philanthropic work. We wanted to get our
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: children involved in that also. And so I think, And
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: I don't want to speculate exactly what that was, but
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: I think it was one of many entities, if you will,
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: which was involved for our family, for the trust, to
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: get involved in the philanthropic activities. But I'm speculating a
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: little bit because I'm not sure. Question, let me ask then.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Which entity did you and your wife appoint Mr. Epstein
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: to the board of directors of 1997? Answer, I think
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: that was the name of it. Question, why did you
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: place Mr. Epstein on the board in 1997? Question, because
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: I thought he was really smart in areas having to
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: do with trust and foundations and charitable work. Question, and
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: this was only a year or two after having met him, correct? Answer,
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: it was a couple years, yeah, exactly. Question, and this
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: appointment caused you to confide personal details about your financial
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: matters and your family with Mr. Epstein, correct? Answer, yes. Question,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: did anyone push back on this appointment? Answer, not that
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: I can recall. Question, and how long? Did he serve
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: on the Black Family Foundation? Answer, I think for if
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: you're saying it happened in 97, is that what you
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: just mentioned? I think he was on it until he
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: went to jail and was convicted, and I asked him
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: to come off. I would also just mention, and I
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: know you reminded me about one time, I don't think
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: that entity did a whole lot. Question, Why ask Mr.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: Epstein to resign from a board when he was convicted? Answer,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: because I thought it was appropriate if we had a
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: family foundation and there were only three members on it,
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: my wife, myself, and him, that he step back from it. Question,
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: you've been quoted to say that his conviction was not
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: that big of a deal to you, but it sounds
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: like it did cause concern enough for you to take
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: action in removing him from your family foundation. Answer, as
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: I said, I don't think the family foundation did a lot,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: but it was something that was out there, it was public,
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: It only had three members. He was in jail. And
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: I don't think that the family foundation was appropriate. Question,
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: so then 2007. We've covered about a decade of dealings
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: between you and Mr. Epstein. How frequently over that decade
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: did you interact with him? Answer, it's hard to say.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: But my home was two blocks from his townhouse. Sometimes
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: we would have breakfast together and sometimes I'd go over
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: if he had interesting people for drinks at five or
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: six for an hour or an hour and a half. Maybe,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know, once a month. Once every three weeks,
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: something like that. Miss Brignac, and can we agree that
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: you developed a friendship over the years? Yes. Answer. Friendship
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: is an amorphous term. This is somebody who knew intimately
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: the goings on in my family tax and estate planning entities.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: It's also something where, as I mentioned, I'd go over
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: to meet his friends. I know that there are emails
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: where he claims that we're best friends. We were never
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: best friends. Was I friendly with him from the point
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: of view of enjoying his Rolodex? Yes. Did I think
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: he was very smart as a professional advisor? Yes. Question.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: I would like to now enter what is marked as
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: Majority Exhibit 1. This is a letter from a book
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: that was compiled as a gift for Mr. Epstein's 50th birthday.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: I'll give you a moment to review. Answer. I'm aware
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: of this. Question. And let me just know when we're ready. Answer.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: I'm ready. I said I'm aware. I know this letter. Question.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Who reached out to you and asked you to make
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: this submission? Answer. I believe Glenn Maxwell. Question, what did
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: she tell you? That she was putting together a surprise
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: birthday book for Epstein's 50th. And would I contribute to it?
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: And I said, sure. Question, did she send you any
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: other letters or examples done by others? Answer, no. But
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: she said she was putting together a book by others
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: and I would contribute. So I knew that there were others,
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: but I didn't know who they were. Question, your submission
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: appears to be a poem of sorts. Yes. Answer, a
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: bad poem. Yes. Question, in your letter. You referred to Mr.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Epstein as VFPC, which means Vanity Fair Poster Child. What
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: does that mean? Answer, it means I believe, I don't
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: fully recall, but I think there had been a Vanity
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: Fair article about him. That's all. Question, what was that
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: Vanity Fair article about? Answer, I don't remember, but that's
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: what the reference is. Question, what did you mean when
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: you wrote by birds and bucks, C's and M's are
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: his key? Answer, I actually don't recall. I know that book.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: I think that's a reference that he liked money and
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: that he liked money and he liked women. He was
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: a confirmed bachelor. Question, what do you mean by blonde, red,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: or brunette spread out geographically? Answer, what it says that
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: he liked women, whether they were blonde, redheaded, or brunettes. Question,
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: which women were you referring to here? Answer, none specifically. Question,
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: what locations were you referring to? Answer, I don't think
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: I was. Question, why would you say spread out geographically? Answer,
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: because he seemed to know women all over the world.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: He traveled, he was in Paris, he was in Santa Fe,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: he was in his island, and he enjoyed the company
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: of good-looking women, and he was a bachelor. Question, how
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: did you know he surrounded himself with good-looking women? Answer, well,
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: his staff were mostly good-looking women, and his pilot was
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: six-foot blonde. I mean, it was a little bit out
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: of a James Bond movie. His plane, I think, remember
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: being black, and his pilot was a six-foot blonde with
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: hair down to her waist. He was eccentric. Question, who
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: was this blonde pilot? Answer, I don't really know her. Question,
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: have you since learned that her name was Redacted? Answer, yes. Question,
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: did you understand Redacted to be Mr. Epstein's girlfriend? Answer, no.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: I still don't understand that. That's news to me. Question, yes,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: it's been widely reported on. Did he have multiple girlfriends
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: at a time? Answer, I don't know a lot of
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: his girlfriends. I know his last girlfriend, Corinna, but I
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: didn't know. And I knew that he'd been with somebody
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: before I knew him for 10 years. But I didn't
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: know his girlfriends. But I did know that he surrounded
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: himself with good-looking women. Question, how old did Redacted appear
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: to be? Answer, I'm sorry, which one? Question, the blonde pilot, Redacted.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: How old did she appear to be? Answer, I don't know, 30?
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Question, have you been made aware since? Answer,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: by Leon Black, she was a registered pilot. Question, have
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: you been made aware since that Redacted had been trafficked
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: to the United States at the age of 15 by Mr. Epstein? Answer, no,
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Question, was it possible that redacted
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: was underage? Answer, I don't believe so. I'd only met
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: her when she was a pilot. I doubt whether she
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: was an underage pilot. Question, did you ever see her
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: at 301 East 66th Street? Answer, no. Further in the poem,
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: you state Alhambra East Jamboree. What does that refer to? Question,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: as I said, Epstein was quite eccentric and a little
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: crazy with his architectural plans for his island, which he
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: sometimes shared with me. And I think he had seven
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: different buildings going on. They had an Asian, or I'd
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: say even more mid-eastern architectural pendulum with domes, and so
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: I called in the eastern Alhambra based on the one
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: in Spain. And he, I think, put a lot of time, effort,
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: and money into building out those physical buildings. Question the
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: jamboree refers to a party or a celebration. Why would
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: you say an architectural party or celebration? Answer, it's a poem.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: I mean... Gets cut off. Question, for the record, does
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: East Alhambra... Refer to East Alhambra High School in California. Answer.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: I didn't know one existed named East Alhambra. I have
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: no idea. That's the first I've heard of it. Question.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: You signed the birthday letter with the following. Best of all,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: dear friend, happy birthday. Jeffrey loves and kisses. Leon. Answer. Uh-huh. Question.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: Did you consider Mr. Epstein to be a dear friend? Answer. No.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: I considered him to be what I just described. I
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: considered him to be somebody that I had known for
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: a long time, enjoyed his entourage of people in a
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: lot of different fields. I appreciated the work he had
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: done with my family office, and I was in the
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: spirit of what was asked of me, which was festive
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: occasion for the 50th birthday of a confirmed bachelor, and
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: that was the spirit that I wrote this in. No,
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: I told you before I didn't consider him my best
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: friend or a dear friend. Was I friendly with him
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: in terms of the amount of time I went over
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: and met people at his townhouse? Yes, I was. Question
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: your words, Mr. Leon. Say that you called him a
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: dear friend. So do you sign birthday letters to all
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: your business associates with love and kisses, dear friend? Answer, sometimes. Question, okay.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Tell me about your first interaction with Redacted. Answer, I
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: met her at a party in New York. Nothing through
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein didn't know her. She didn't know
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein. So I met her at a different party
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: in the city. Question, who introduced you? Answer, she was
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: at the party. Question, whose party? Answer, a man named
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: Don Engle, who had been a partner at Drexel. Question,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: how did he know Redacted? Answer, I have no idea.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: He threw a party every year for Independence Day for
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: Russian women, or something like that, and he had a
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: party of friends. And she was there, and I chatted
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: with her. Question, where was she from? Answer, she was
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: from Russia, from Tatarstan. Question, have you ever engaged in
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: sexual conduct of any kind with Redacted? Answer, I had
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: an affair with her. on and off for six years,
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: an extramarital consensual adult affair with her. Question, it was
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: a sexual affair, correct? Answer, it's already public knowledge. Question,
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: did you have sexual conduct with Redacted? Answer, yes. Question,
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: did you support Redacted financially over the course of this affair? Answer, yes. Question,
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: did you ever ask Redacted to sign a nondisclosure agreement? Answer,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: I think the subject of NDAs, I'm going to refer
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: to my counsel. Ms. Estrich, We're not going to get
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: into NDAs without admitting the existence of any. Every confidential
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: agreement I've ever seen in my long career has included
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: confidentiality clauses that bind Mr. Black as well as the
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: women that were involved. Brignac, they don't bind them from Congress. Estrich, well,
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: they bind them from transcribed interview, as I understand it.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: This is not a subpoena. He has not received a subpoena.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: And we're treating this as a voluntary exercise in which Mr.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: Black is here voluntarily to help the committee. But we
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: cannot get into NDAs. I would ask if you could
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: move on to another question. Mr. Ashworth, so he's not
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: even going to answer questions about the existence of an
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: NDA or whether or not, not even the substance, and
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: he's also not going to answer questions about the actions
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: related to individuals who there may be an NDA related to? Ms. Estrich,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: we'll answer any questions we can, but as you well
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: know from your experience, if there were to be an NDA...
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: It would have a confidentiality clause that would buy Mr.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: Black in a situation like this. Miss Ashworth, but it's
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: your position that the confidentiality prevents him from even discussing
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: the existence of an NDA? Miss Estrich, that's what every
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: NDA I've ever seen in my career requires. Miss Ashworth,
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: I think I would disagree with that. Estrich, but in
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: the terms of the settlement agreement, if there is one,
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: the existence of any such agreement, we're not even allowed...
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: when you have an NDA to even talk about the
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: existence of an agreement in the absence of process and
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: judicial review and the like. So we're going to try
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: to abide by our confidentiality obligations while helping the committee
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: in any way we can. All right, folks, we're going
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: to wrap up right here. And in the next episode,
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: we're going to finish this bad boy off. All the
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: information that goes with this episode can be found on
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: in the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: going to pick up where we left off with Leon
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: Black and his interview with Congress. Mr. Ashworth, okay, thank you. Ms. Estrich,
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: thank you. Brignac, I understand this confidentiality to have already
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: been broken because there's public reporting on this NDA. So
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you, Mr. Black, did you ever
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: ask redacted to sign a nondisclosure agreement? Mr. Black, I
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: think I'd like to chat with my counsel for five minutes. Ms. Estrich,
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: could we take a short break? Ms. Brignac, yup, we
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: can go off record. Ms. Brignac, we can go back
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: on record. Mr. Grant, Mr. Black, before you continue, there
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: have been some additional members of Congress and staff that
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: have joined us since the beginning of the interview. Will
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: they please announce themselves for the record? Yasemin Ansari, James Walkinshaw,
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: Redacted Comms Director, Ranking Member, Robert Garcia. Redacted Intern Ranking
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: Member Garcia. Redacted Deputy Chief Counsel. Mr. Grant, thank you all. Black,
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: if I could, I would like to go back and
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: respond to your last question. Ms. Brignac, question yes, thank you,
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to repeat the question so the record's clear.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: Did you ever ask Redacted to sign a non-disclosure agreement? Answer, yeah.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: When I said I wanted to come back, I came
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: here voluntarily to be cooperative with the committee, and to
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: the extent I'm able to do that, I will. So
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: on the three women that were the subject of lawsuits
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: filed by the Wigdor firm, one of which was redacted,
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: I'm happy to respond to you relating to those three women.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: So to answer your question, redacted, who I had an
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: on and off, again, consensual adult affair with for six years,
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: left the country. I think she had some visa issues
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: after she finished her studies at Columbia University and she
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: was abroad for a year. And then she came back
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: and she came back and all of a sudden claimed
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: that I had ruined her life. Never claimed I had
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: abused her. and that she had to have $ 100 million
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: paid to her. And we spent a summer meeting probably
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: seven or eight times. She came back in June and
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: said that, and we spent the summer, and I spent
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: about seven or eight meetings and worked out a settlement agreement,
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: which resulted in an NDA. And pursuant to that NDA,
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: which was signed in 2015, you agreed on $ 100, 000 per
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: month for 15 years, 1 million in loan forgiveness, and
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: 2 million in British pounds for a UK visa. Does
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: all of that sound correct? Answer, that sounds correct. Question,
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: was Mr. Epstein involved in the negotiations on these terms? Answer,
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: he was not involved in the negotiation. He was somebody
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: that I told I was being blackmailed and extorted to,
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: as well as to my lawyers at Paul Weiss. Question, $ 21. 7
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: million seems like an awful lot for an extramarital affair. What, precisely?
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: Was it you did not wish her to disclose? Answer,
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: that we were having an affair. I had a wife
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: and children, and was the chair of a public company.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: I agree with you, it was a lot of money.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: It was a lot less than the $ 100 million that
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: she started with, and I viewed it as total blackmail
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: and extortion, but didn't want it to be public, so
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: we negotiated a settlement. Question, and you sought Mr. Epstein's
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: advice in navigating this NDA? Answer, I don't think how
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: much he advised me. I don't need somebody to advise
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: me on how to negotiate, but I did talk to
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: him about being extorted. I mean, he was handling my estate.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: $ 100 million would have had an effect on the estate,
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: and so he was aware of it, as was Paul Weiss. Question,
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: did Mr. Epstein have experience navigating NDAs that caused you
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: to speak with him about this? Answer, I don't know
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: whether he had experience on NDAs. He was not my
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: NDA advisor. Question, and can you list the two other
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: women that you had NDAs with that you mentioned that
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: you would speak about? Answer, well, one was a woman
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: named Redacted, and the other is someone I'm happy to
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: talk about, but there's no NDA involved. I think her
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: name is still confidential and sealed. But all three of
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: these women were clients of a firm called Wigdor, who
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: disgracefully brought charges that were totally fabricated and bogus against me. Question,
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: what are the terms of the NDA with redacted? Answer again,
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: I'm happy to talk about the firm or the woman.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: This is a woman I never met. Question, what were
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: the terms of the NDA? Answer again, I'm not sure
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about an NDA, but I'm going
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: to say that I never met her. Mr. Ashworth, Mr. Black,
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: you just stated a moment ago that you would be
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: willing to talk about the NDAs, these NDAs related to
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: these cases. Now you're stating, he gets cut off by
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: Leon Black, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Ashworth,
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: now you're stating that you're not going to talk about
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: the substance of those NDAs. I would like some clarity
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: with regards to your position with regards to NDAs, both
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: these specific, these two, as well as any other NDAs
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: that may be relevant to the committee's investigation. Black, yeah.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: What I may, I may have misspoke. What I meant
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: to say is I was willing to talk about these
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: three women and those three cases, not so much about
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: the NDAs, which was on the advice of my counsel.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: To that, Susan Estrich, the lawyer, jumps in. Mr. Black
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: is simply not at liberty to talk about confidential terms
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: and agreements where he was, if he was, or has,
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: an agreement that has confidential terms in it. Mr. Ashworth,
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: it seems bizarre to that he could talk about these
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: women and the potential cases against them, that it's at
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: least our understanding, from what he's articulated and from what
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: you've articulated, that those are specifically related to these NDAs,
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: and so yet he can't talk about the NDAs or
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: the substance of these NDAs, but he can talk about
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: the women? It certainly indicates and raises questions as to
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: the completeness of his testimony with regards to not only
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: these women, but these cases as it relates to the
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: committee's investigations. Ms. Estrich, we're doing our best. We're trying
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: to do our best. Ms. Brignac, question, and the committee's
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: aware of Mr. Epstein's involvement in assisting with NDAs for Mr. Black,
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: so it's critical that we receive answers on NDAs. So,
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: what were the terms of the NDAs with redacted? Answer, Mr.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: Epstein had no involvement with anything to do with redacted. Question,
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: that wasn't my question. Answer, no, but it is. You
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: just said that Epstein was involved with the NDA. He
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: was not. Question, you don't know that for certain. Answer,
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: I do know. I never talked to him about redacted. Estridge,
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: we know for certain that he was not involved with redacted. Mr. Black, correct. Ms. Brignac, Mr. Black,
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: what were the terms of the NDA with redacted? Mr. Black, again,
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: on advice of counsel. Ms. Estridge, I can't answer. Black,
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: to talk about confidential NDAs. But you should be aware
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: that those first two cases were withdrawn or dismissed with
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: prejudice and that they were totally fabricated and I never
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: met redacted. Brignac question. You've also mentioned in a statement
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: to the press that the NDAs between men and women
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: with prior relationships are very common occurrences among your social circles.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: Can you elaborate on that? Answer, I said that. Question, yes.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: In a 2024 interview with Puck, Leon Black, back from
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: the ashes. Are NDAs very common occurrences among your social circles? Answer.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: Do I know of many men who have signed NDAs? Yes,
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: I do. And I think there are many men and
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: women who have had their affairs and NDAs were arranged
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: and they were meant to keep confidential by both sides.
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: The desire of both sides and yeah. Question. How many
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: NDAs are you a party to? Ms. Estrich, again, that's
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: a question that if there are any NDAs, we can't
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: answer because the terms of any NDA would include confidentiality
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: as to the very existence of an agreement, so I
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: have to instruct my client that he can answer those
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: questions consistent with his obligations, Ms. Brignac noted. Are you
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: refusing to answer the question, how many NDAs are you
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: party to? Answer, on the advice of my counsel, I'm
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: not going to answer that question. Question, how many NDAs
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: was Mr. Epstein party to? Answer, the only one that
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: I can think of, he was aware of, if there
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: were any others, was redacted to my knowledge. Question, Mr.
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: Epstein never told you he had an NDA with anyone else? Ms. Estrich,
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: let me clarify. Did you ask questions? How many NDAs
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: did Mr. Epstein have? Or did Mr. Epstein know about Mr.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: Black's NDAs? Ms. Brignac, question. How many NDAs was Mr.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: Epstein party to? Answer. I have no idea. How would
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: I know that? Question. If he told you, if you
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: saw them? Answer. No, he never told me that. I
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: have no idea. Question. You confirm that NDAs are very
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: common occurrences among your social circles. Who has NDAs that
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: you're aware of? Answer, I'm not here to talk about NDAs. Question,
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: are you refusing to answer the question? Answer, I'm refusing
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: to answer that question, obviously. Question, are you aware of
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: any other NDAs with women who are affiliated with Mr. Epstein? Answer, no. Mr. Ashworth, Mr. Black,
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: thank you again for appearing here today. My name is
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: Daniel Ashworth. I'm the general counsel for the committee. I'm
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: serving right now two subpoenas to you, one for documents,
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: all NDAs, for which you are a party of, of
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: which relate to Jeffrey Epstein and Glenn Maxwell, that you
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: may have in your possession, and the second is for
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: a deposition on July 16th. I'm serving these to you now.
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: We will additionally provide electronic versions to your counsel immediately
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: following this. Ms. Estrich, we're happy to discuss this with
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: you at the conclusion of this hearing today. Mr. Cutler,
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: why don't we take a break now? We agreed to
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: come here voluntarily today. We've had many discussions with you,
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: and that's the terms of our sitting here with you.
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: And so we're going to take a break now, okay? Mr.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: Ashworth understood. We'll go off record. Ashworth understood. Mr. Black,
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: his attorneys have a statement they would like to make. Mr. Cutler, yes,
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: thank you. I'm deeply disappointed in the lack of professionalism
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: displayed by the committee today. We engaged for months with
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: the committee's majority staff in an effort to facilitate a fair,
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: voluntary transcribed interview. Unfortunately, that good faith was met with
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: premeditated political misdirection by the committee, which served Mr. Black
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: with subpoenas in an unprecedented manner after less than an
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: hour of questioning and before they even asked a single
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: question about his payments to Epstein. Mr. Black came here
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: voluntarily to assist the committee. This was nothing more than
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: a planned political stunt. Mr. Epstein had no involvement with
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: any NDAs, whether they exist or not. Let me reiterate.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: The committee did not ask a single question about the
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: legitimate payments to Mr. Epstein for professional services on tax
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: and estate matters. I want to be clear. As Mr.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: Black said in his opening statement, he never abused a woman.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: He was never with an underage girl. He never engaged
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: in sex trafficking. He never paid Epstein for access to women.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: He was never blackmailed by Epstein. Mr. Black had no
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: knowledge of Epstein's heinous conduct. Thank you. Mr. Ashworth, for
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: the record, counsel did not engage with the committee or
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: indicate to the committee or provide any indication that Mr.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: Black would not testify or answer any questions related to
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: non-disclosure agreements. Furthermore, for the first time on Monday, counsel
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: for Mr. Black stated to the committee that he may
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: not answer questions related to personal relationships. During that meeting,
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: committee counsel indicated that there would be no limitations on
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: scope for the interview. Furthermore, committee counsel has consistently indicated
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: to Mr. Black's counsel that there would be no time
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: or scope limitations on the interview. Majority staff question is finished.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: I understand the minority would like to make a statement.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: Redacted thank you. Redacted senior counsel for ranking member Robert Garcia.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: I have two statements for the record. First, Ranking member Garcia,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: Representative Khanna, and Representative Walkinshaw were all present during the
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: last round, but did not have the opportunity to introduce themselves. Second,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: the minority has serious questions for Mr. Black about his
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: knowledge and involvement in Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking operation. Specifically,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: Democrats had questions about the vast amount of money Mr.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: Black paid Epstein and about the allegations of sexual abuse
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: against Mr. Black. Mr. Black has shown himself unwilling to
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: answer the committee's questions voluntarily and And we strongly support
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: Chairman Comer's subpoenas. Mr. Ashworth, with that, we'll go off
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: the record. All right, so that's what we have when
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: it comes to Leon Black and the transcript. And they're
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: going to be picking this conversation up under subpoena the
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: next time around. And like usual, when we have some information,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: we'll get it added to the catalog. All the information
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: that goes with this episode can be found in the
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: description box.