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Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Season 4 Episode 19 - New Moon Rising · Shit 90s Shows Taught Me | Felicity/ Buffy the Vampire Slayer/ Boy Meets World / Dawson's Creek/ 90s TV

0:03
[SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes a world looks like you ain't ever seen it before.
0:10
[SPEAKER_05]: Just be how never ended with those, how you need as a door.
0:16
[SPEAKER_05]: Searching for something to put a smile back on your face.
0:23
[SPEAKER_05]: Just remembering unusual times that can come from an unusual place.
0:30
[SPEAKER_05]: I need a partner for a ride Cause everybody needs a ride Such a bird is to the side Just ask See the word now be there Just ask
0:49
[SPEAKER_05]: I know the greatest things in the life I'll come in a pair They say hindsight's twenty twenty That ain't far enough behind me So we can walk this sweetest honey I think hindsight's nineteen nineteen Isn't need to pretend I got a hand I can land Who's like you really need a friend Just ask
1:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Shit ninety shows dot me Shit ninety shows dot me was not filmed before live studio audience
1:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you ready to say another day?
1:34
[SPEAKER_02]: So are we?
1:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to shit nineties show stop me.
1:38
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just early in here with my co-host Sarah Humphrey.
1:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Sarah Howard you just I am doing so good.
1:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So good today.
1:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I am ready to talk about my favorite guy to ever come on the screen to come back.
1:56
[SPEAKER_01]: He's been gone for so long.
2:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, though, I hate his guts.
2:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I hate him.
2:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I hate him.
2:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I hate his stupid face.
2:05
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm ready to talk about it.
2:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Great.
2:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, we're talking about season four episode, nineteen new moon rising.
2:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And we are not alone.
2:12
[SPEAKER_02]: We are here with someone who has to come back for every wearable slash Oz episode.
2:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Hannah, Hannah, how are you?
2:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm great.
2:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I thank you for having me back on.
2:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I finally found my buffy sweatshirt.
2:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
2:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Those not.
2:27
[SPEAKER_00]: watching the video.
2:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Why don't you want to watch them?
2:31
[SPEAKER_00]: They make so funny funny pictures, but also here's my Sunday night high school sweatshirt.
2:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I finally found it and it's way too hot to wear your podcast.
2:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, comfy.
2:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a cozy sweatshirt.
2:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I got it for my, uh, Buffy Halloween costume.
2:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I like if you're going to get things for a Halloween costume.
2:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a big proponent of things.
2:49
[SPEAKER_00]: You'll also wear again.
2:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
2:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I haven't worn the cheerleading skirt out, but
2:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Who knows, I could still become the captain of a cheerleading squad.
2:58
[SPEAKER_02]: There's still time, there's still time.
3:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so we're talking about new moon rising.
3:03
[SPEAKER_02]: We have the return of Oz.
3:06
[SPEAKER_02]: We have some Waz, Tilo sort of stuff happening.
3:13
[SPEAKER_02]: We get some Riley and Buffy serious combos about prior history and relationships and all that.
3:23
[SPEAKER_02]: So we had a lot to dig into today and I want to start by talking about Tilo and how very obvious to me it was that Tara is a cat person.
3:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay.
3:38
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, what do you mean by that?
3:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
3:41
[SPEAKER_02]: We already talked about Tara being a horse girly, right?
3:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like horse girlies and cat girlies are like cousins.
3:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Like they're they're right there.
3:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Not that you can't also like dogs are friendly as our friend Melissa would say you can be a cat person and a dog person.
3:58
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to be just one.
4:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
4:01
[SPEAKER_02]: But I do think if you were to ask a horse person, like, oh, do you prefer cats or dogs?
4:06
[SPEAKER_02]: They're going to say cats more often.
4:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, cats are in barns a lot of the time because they control the mice population.
4:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
4:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't know.
4:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know a lot of horse people.
4:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can't ask, but I wouldn't qualify a horse person exactly.
4:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm worried that I might fall into the category.
4:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to see how many boxes I take here.
4:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Question number one, have you ever had a folder for school with a horse on it?
4:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, well, what is the release of Frank was really big?
4:35
[SPEAKER_00]: That does not belong.
4:36
[SPEAKER_01]: These like an actual horse.
4:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm talking about like either an illustration of a horse or an actual.
4:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I should lead with why I'm concerned.
4:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I fall into this category that I don't quite understand what it means, but you do seem to talk about it with a lot of disdain.
4:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I have gone to a sleep wake camp in which we each got assigned a horse that we'd take care of and I have written horses for most of my life.
5:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Have you ever written horses competitively and have you ever owned a horse?
5:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never owned a horse but I have like semi competitively like I would do the jumping
5:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And I learned like I learned to canter and gallop against some horseback riding trails.
5:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
5:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, um, follow a question.
5:20
[SPEAKER_01]: A question, an outfit or like farm girl outfit.
5:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, more more a question, outfit.
5:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I wore like the the tight pants with chaps.
5:29
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't like that.
5:30
[SPEAKER_00]: The questions are different.
5:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, horse girlies are like people that own horses live on like a farm with horses longs here.
5:42
[SPEAKER_02]: That's like down here.
5:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel like there's some classes on this distinction though?
5:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
5:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Definitely.
5:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I mean, like, so I get a pass because I like wore a velvet helmet and like horseback riding chaps or do I get more in trouble?
5:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
6:01
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just a category of people.
6:02
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just a like, there's a type of person that really likes horses.
6:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I fall into this?
6:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So what?
6:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So I am curious if I fall into this category.
6:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think you fall into the category.
6:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think so.
6:15
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
6:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I do.
6:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I did.
6:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And I like terror.
6:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I have nothing against horse girly's because I really like terror.
6:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that I had a folder with a horse on it, but my grandmother knew I liked horses, so she would get like horse themed gifts because she knew I was a horse they do.
6:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's horse girly.
6:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
6:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, what do you like to say?
6:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes grandparents, they know you like a thing, so they focus in on that thing.
6:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
6:40
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's then the time it everything with that specific thing on that thing.
6:46
[SPEAKER_01]: My grandfather knew that I like twenty dollar bills.
6:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So then whenever I saw him, he had to get married before he died.
6:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, guess what?
6:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Grandpa, that didn't happen, sorry.
6:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, that's so much pressure for a child.
6:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, Tara wants to get a cat.
6:56
[SPEAKER_01]: She wants to like sneak it into her dorm room.
7:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is a cat versus dog episode.
7:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.
7:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I interrupted.
7:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this is most assuredly, cat versus dog.
7:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
7:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
7:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yes.
7:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So the thing is is that.
7:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think I'm I think I'm Procat.
7:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think I'm like I think I'm almost assuredly a cat person.
7:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I have this transfer.
7:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I do have a dog.
7:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
7:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I hit my mic.
7:43
[SPEAKER_01]: A dog right behind me.
7:45
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a bell.
7:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, he's part demon actually just like not a dog person, you're a shit super person and you're a cat person and that's about all you tolerate.
7:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I wouldn't mind a dorm cat actually, but Jessica's firmly a dog person.
8:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
8:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Cats give a, make me very wary.
8:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I just, they make this scare me because they look like they hate me.
8:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So allergic to cats.
8:11
[SPEAKER_00]: But I am on a, I am on a shelter group chain text where they send out shelter kittens and they say who wants to foster adopt.
8:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And if these kids wouldn't make it so I couldn't breathe, I swear I'd have like all the kids.
8:27
[SPEAKER_00]: They're so cute.
8:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never subscribed from this email chain because the kittens are so cute.
8:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't have it.
8:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm definitely allergic to cats, but I stay on the cat email chain because they'll send just the saddest, grat, scruffiest looking kittens, and I'm obsessed.
8:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a dog.
8:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I love my dog.
8:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm definitely someone who, like, watches the wee rate dogs, dog of the week videos, and cries every week.
8:56
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do stay on the chain about the cats.
8:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you like,
9:01
[SPEAKER_01]: dogs and dogs that do dogs things.
9:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I love dogs.
9:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
9:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, because I don't like that's the thing.
9:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't like dogs that are actually dogs and you know like bark and play and and jump.
9:17
[SPEAKER_02]: She doesn't like can't.
9:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't either.
9:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't.
9:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I do not like that.
9:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I purposely go to our friend, Brenna's house and rev up her dogs when I arrive.
9:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I love to get a dog.
9:28
[SPEAKER_00]: You have two dogs now, right?
9:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I have two dogs.
9:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
9:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
9:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I have, or have I not liked and commented on those all of those.
9:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, all of them always.
9:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
9:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
9:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for going.
9:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I learned that Ted Bundy had a dog recently, and I thought I thought I would not be killed by Ted Bundy.
9:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I don't trust good looking men like that.
9:50
[SPEAKER_00]: But then if I had a dog, I'd come and talk to the health.
9:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
9:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I need to know.
9:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
9:56
[SPEAKER_01]: This is kind of critical information.
9:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
10:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to say that I love that Tara is trying to you haul it with, yes, with Willow.
10:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, hey, let's get our cat.
10:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we can get a joint cat.
10:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And Willow is like, kind of like dogs better, but like, we can still get cat.
10:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, yeah, okay.
10:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean,
10:22
[SPEAKER_01]: The rumors could be true that lesbians do fool's Russian essentially.
10:29
[SPEAKER_02]: The thing is that I'm most upset about is I'm upset at the like studio slash network for the show that we have all of this relationship progression is happening essentially off screen because it's too women and it's like very, very frustrating to me because we see Willow and Tara literally hold hands this episode like in this moment and I feel like
10:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish we would have gotten to see that happen for the first time and like I wish we could have seen more of this forward movement in like from friends to romantic partners because it's very obvious this episode that that you know that they are at that point and the fact that we haven't seen ninety percent of it besides like the witchy orgasm is very upsetting to me like I want to watch this blossom and I'm annoyed about it.
11:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely think the witchcraft is meant to be some of the building.
11:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I also think there's two reasons to be annoyed at the network.
11:27
[SPEAKER_00]: One, because they, you know, caving through these parents groups or whatever they were putting pressure on them.
11:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And the other thing, which is not a major spoiler, but is in how they wanted Willow to identify moving forward, which, look, however someone identifies is how they identify.
11:44
[SPEAKER_00]: If Willow says, I'm a lesbian or I'm gay and I'm only into women and that's how she identifies
11:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I respect everyone's identities.
11:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what's frustrating is there have been talk behind the scenes of like, well, they're okay offscreen, obviously, with her being gay.
12:00
[SPEAKER_00]: But by sexual, that's too confusing.
12:03
[SPEAKER_00]: When for me, she's such a like beautiful representation of bisexuals and bisexuality.
12:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And as like a young bisexual watching the show, I think like acknowledgement throughout that like,
12:17
[SPEAKER_00]: one doesn't invalidate the other would have been nice.
12:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't happen in this episode.
12:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I just mean is this is the series overall.
12:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like there's just a few comments where she's like, you this.
12:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, no, it's okay.
12:30
[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay that like you loved Oz and Tara, like both are loves in your life.
12:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this episode does a slightly better job of, I mean, I think this episode is a very bisexual episode.
12:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, most assuredly.
12:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
12:46
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very obvious that Willow and Tara are like pretty much together at this point.
12:52
[SPEAKER_02]: But things get thrown for a loop when Oz returns.
12:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like it could not be more awkward the way he returns where it's like in front of the entire Scooby's plus Tara.
13:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Tara immediately is like, oh, this is Oz.
13:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, obviously she knows who he is in their history.
13:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And
13:11
[SPEAKER_02]: credit to Tara, she is so supremely supportive this entire time, like basically being like, I understand if he comes back and like you want to be with him, like he left to go fix this problem and it seems like maybe he has fixed it and if you want to go back to be with him, like we can still be friends, like this is remarkably mature Sarah for Tara to be saying all of this in the midst of basically having her entire heart broken.
13:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I, I really love Tara.
13:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I really like her.
13:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that she's a little like, um, she's like a little delicate flower at times.
13:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Not like, I'm sure that she gained strength as time goes on, but like, she's, she feels like a little precious.
13:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but I, I really love, like, really love her.
14:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a big, pillow fan.
14:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that what it is?
14:05
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I've been saying, pillow.
14:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I don't know.
14:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be Taylor or what's the where a where I like where because it's awkward, but that's I used to use the worst of the two.
14:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I really I laid them as a couple.
14:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like I'm going to probably shit talk as a whole bunch of this episode.
14:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you hate that sorry, not sorry.
14:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but I really liked how Tara handled this and I liked her ability to be patient while Willow was figuring her shit out and I also think it's like pretty relatable that like Tara and Tara's kind of like a side girl, you know.
14:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, she gives sad girl vibes.
14:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's how fluffy is sometimes a sad girl.
14:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that she is also, I mean, I know that Buffy's a Capricorn.
14:51
[SPEAKER_01]: But in my head, Canon, she's such a Scorpio.
14:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say that our girl Tara is Pisces adjacent.
14:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that she's very like, she gives sad, a March Pisces.
15:03
[SPEAKER_01]: She gives sad girl vibes.
15:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love how, because it's what I would do as well.
15:08
[SPEAKER_01]: How she was like, I know that like, I'm not,
15:12
[SPEAKER_01]: who you're going to pick.
15:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just going to step out of the way.
15:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just going to hear my corner and be sad.
15:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when she comes back, how like instantly for giving, she is, which is like, it's so nice and so sweet, but also it's just like Tara, like maybe you should be like, hey, like more communication during this time would have been good.
15:35
[SPEAKER_01]: But like she's kind of like accepting the love that she
15:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, is like accepting the love or lack there.
15:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Love that she deserves.
15:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
15:47
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
15:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Like she's willing to let people like walk all over her a little bit.
15:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
15:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, I think there is this.
15:56
[SPEAKER_02]: inner strength and terror that we've got on my opinion only seen when she's like practicing magic like I feel like she uses magic as a way to find inner strength but even though she's a good witch she looks to willow who is more
16:11
[SPEAKER_01]: of a like alpha personality for reassurance about what she's doing is right or okay, because she doesn't have that confidence within herself.
16:21
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, but also Willow had that at what point in time.
16:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she found that confidence through
16:30
[SPEAKER_01]: be working alongside Buffy being a Scooby and also learning magic.
16:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's kind of love by a person.
16:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think.
16:40
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think God didn't help Willow girl.
16:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I think all you're all spot on.
16:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Tara I love Tara and Willow.
16:47
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not shocking.
16:48
[SPEAKER_00]: When I say that I think Willow has the best like love stories.
16:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I stand by that.
16:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I think
16:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I also think that like, you know, you just explored everything with faith.
16:57
[SPEAKER_00]: You just watched whatever, you know, faith's current arc of how someone's past can like color who they are.
17:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And we don't know much at this point in the show about Tara's history and whatnot, but you can see how whatever she has been through or whatever like her background is, it has colored who she is and it hasn't made her heart and angry like faith.
17:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It's made her, um,
17:21
[SPEAKER_00]: you know insecure and questioning, but yeah, you know, I think it's, I think it's really beautiful on your right.
17:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I think willow in this relationship, unlike in the past, is the more, you know, confident one seems to have a circle of friends.
17:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Has been in love before.
17:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we don't really know what Tara's past is, but it seems like this is, um,
17:44
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, she's experienced a lot of growth in high school.
17:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And now she's a more confident person.
17:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's meeting this person who is shyre and maybe in more need of, I don't know, you're right.
17:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it will leads in a way that she doesn't in the rest of the group.
18:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
18:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's I really loved watching because you're right, Hannah with what you said earlier about this really being like a really great bisexual episode and watching willow waffle with her feelings of
18:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Oz was such a significant part of her past and her her growth arc and like how she became she went from like a teenager into more of an adult like he he was her first right like there's like he is a very solidly important part of who she is
18:38
[SPEAKER_02]: But Tara is more about who she is now and who she maybe wants to be and watching her kind of try to figure all of that out and navigate that and like feel so complicated about it and really I feel like the actual like an incredible job in terms of like feeling that
18:57
[SPEAKER_02]: conflict within herself of like which way do I go am I an asshole if I don't go back to us or am I an asshole if I break up with Tara to be with us like now that Oz seemingly fixed himself and we'll talk about that like is it wrong of me to want to stay with Tara and how do I even talk about this with anyone because nobody really knows the extent of
19:23
[SPEAKER_02]: their relationship, her entire relationship.
19:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's a very complicated episode kind of cloaked in this like, where will story?
19:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I for one really loved it.
19:35
[SPEAKER_02]: I was so happy to see Oz come back because the way he left felt like we needed, we needed him to come back.
19:44
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like maybe he comes back again.
19:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, but like,
19:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Even if he never comes back, I feel like I feel very satisfied with them like fixing or working on this arc, right?
19:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Where he felt like he was a danger to Willow and all of that.
19:59
[SPEAKER_02]: He had to go away.
20:00
[SPEAKER_02]: He thought he fixed it and then it turns out, no, he just was like, is emotions so kind of rule his powers, his changing, however you want to call it, you know.
20:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think that it's, I mean, part of the reason I wanted to come back was because this is the episode, Oz returns.
20:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And that just felt funny that I've created a pattern on your podcast as you said at the end of last podcast or like, oh, Hannah's coming back, probably Oz.
20:27
[SPEAKER_00]: But also, I think that this episode shows a mix of things I love about season four.
20:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And you guys, we'll talk about the whole season four of it all.
20:37
[SPEAKER_00]: You guys have really,
20:39
[SPEAKER_00]: by rewatching it I've really come to appreciate like so many episodes I truly love and was like oh I guess this this season contains a lot of episodes I love I also feel like for me personally it has some of the things that I think make this season weaker so I thought this would be a fun episode to come on and be like this is the part I really like and this is the part where I'm like and so I think for me it was a good mix but yeah that he comes back and
21:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the thing is that like the decisions already made, it's sort of about her coming out about that decision.
21:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what's interesting about the episode frames it as like who will she choose?
21:18
[SPEAKER_00]: When really I think it's like Oz returns and Willow and the world are different enough that he doesn't fit into it anymore.
21:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's kind of like a cool trick the episode plays.
21:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's interesting like how much has changed for her in a short amount of time, but it's because of the abrupt departure where she had to
21:44
[SPEAKER_01]: work on herself, what she wants, what makes her happy.
21:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I find it interesting, like I really want to talk about how Willow came out to Buffy because it's essentially what we've been waiting for for many episodes.
22:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I feel like
22:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's interesting because it's like, how does Buffy not put two and two together even when she was insinuating it and her reaction?
22:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like curious.
22:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's like, I can't answer this question because I
22:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't identify as queer because but like do you think that puppy handled it well because like for me if I did have to answer the question like my only thought would be like
22:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to reassure immediately that I'm okay with it.
22:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so here.
22:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I feel like that is like the only option.
22:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've had like somebody my mother literally came out to me, you know, when she was
22:59
[SPEAKER_01]: around sixty years old and that was the only thing that I said I said I'm I'm really happy that you found somebody that you love and really happy that you get to be yourself and I feel like that's the only answer but like I'm curious if you guys think that like Buffy handled it well enough like she was was a little awkward she was right being her head around it eventually she was just like I'm good like we're good but like is that good enough?
23:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah I think
23:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I definitely think it took a long time to catch on.
23:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I also think this is a show from the nineties and early arts when like this isn't a topic being as widely discussed possibly.
23:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously it's a little awkward to have her being like, oh, will like will at the end of like every sentence.
23:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it was just it was a lot.
23:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
23:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I do think the
23:55
[SPEAKER_02]: The like, I just think she is able to kind of
24:01
[SPEAKER_02]: speak to Willow and calm her down relatively quickly, considering she is being like hit with news that she wasn't expecting.
24:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think like it's one of those things where once that switch is like flipped in her brain, like all of the things lock into place of like, oh, duh, of course you and Tara are together.
24:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I think it just takes her a second to catch on because there's so much going on at the moment.
24:28
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I think I like that Buffy says for her to follow her heart.
24:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I think that like that is the best advice she could give her, not really knowing, not being in Willow's position and not really understanding how Willow feels.
24:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know Hannah, what do you think?
24:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like telling her to follow her heart is probably the best advice she could give.
24:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I, um, I think
24:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's because we know Buffy by this point that we have more like patients with her, but I think it's totally okay that she took her a second.
25:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I think that probably, look, I don't speak for all queer people to, to be clearly maybe there's someone who who doesn't agree with this, but I think it is, you know, especially in the time, maybe there's someone watching who loves Willow goes, oh, oh, and then they can watch a character
25:21
[SPEAKER_00]: experience that surprise and not immediately be like, got it.
25:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I am immediately understanding.
25:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what's important is in the moment where she is wrapping her head around it and maybe feels like an inner discomfort she didn't know existed.
25:36
[SPEAKER_00]: She then very quickly within one conversation gets there and is supportive.
25:41
[SPEAKER_00]: When she's like, no, of course it doesn't.
25:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, more than follow your heart, which is like, no, it doesn't change anything.
25:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's she gets there.
25:48
[SPEAKER_00]: She stops like nervously repeating Willow's name.
25:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think she gets there quickly and I think it because the episode, you know, does really back to the main story.
26:00
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we see a couple of times in a reflex, like a reflection and we'll talk about it that I am not saying Buffy had any big a tree.
26:10
[SPEAKER_00]: When it comes to queer people, what we see her sees someone she loves be queer and be like,
26:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I know you.
26:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I love you.
26:17
[SPEAKER_00]: This is fine.
26:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have that demonstrated kind of an a mirrored way to Riley seeing Oz and being like, wait, I know you though.
26:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, yeah, I'm gonna rethink my belief system.
26:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of times, people like hearts and minds are changed when it's someone they love and care about whatever the thing is.
26:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I think as long as that turns into,
26:45
[SPEAKER_00]: challenging your own beliefs for everyone because I think where we get in trouble is I think there's you know certain people where you're like it's okay if it's in my circle because I know they're good but then they keep you know voting for or casting judgment on people outside their circle but I think what a good you know smart person does is they see someone in their circle and that changes their mind on the outside sort of like how we see
27:14
[SPEAKER_00]: what Riley does.
27:15
[SPEAKER_00]: But for both of them, it's like, okay, well, it's this person, I know them.
27:20
[SPEAKER_00]: But not, you know, not everyone is going to have like a smooth immediate, got it great.
27:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I'm immediately changed this thing.
27:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I keep forgetting that I'm not out to every friend.
27:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll reference something.
27:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've had a couple times now, like I was at coffee with a friend.
27:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was, it was not, it was important to whatever story I was telling and she was like, oh, oh, I didn't know that about you.
27:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, Oh, do you, do you want me to make this a moment?
27:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so sorry.
27:49
[SPEAKER_02]: We can have the moment if you want it.
27:50
[SPEAKER_00]: We can have the moment if you want.
27:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It's funny.
27:54
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think yeah, yeah, I think for me, I, when we're having this conversation, I think that
28:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it comes from my insecurities about what other people think of me and I think that if I think that like if I was sharing something like that to somebody that I cared about what I would need in the moment is immediate reassurance.
28:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that like the thought that somebody else is like
28:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And that moment, those two minutes where Buffy is processing for me often feels like a lifetime.
28:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that would drudge up a lot of feelings for me personally.
28:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So the fact that like I'm putting myself in willows position if I shared something that was like really big for me to a friend and they take
28:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's really unfair because like I'm also the type of person that like I don't really need a lot of time to like think about something like I'm like very like immediate reactions or like immediate feelings.
29:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like very entuned with that type of stuff with myself.
29:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So like I think more so speaks to me about like how I when
29:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I bring something up to a friend.
29:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I need that immediate reassurance.
29:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that honestly speaks to my insecurities and not being very patient with how other people respond to stuff because I'm just like, I'm just like, vibing and living off of other people's
29:36
[SPEAKER_01]: how they how they see me, how they respond to me.
29:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that that when I stayed like, you know, oh, you know, when I was interpreting as like Buffy was taking too long, like she was like my own anxiety of like, if I was in that moment and she was saying that stuff, then like those two minutes that she's taking processing, my head is like,
29:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, does she hate me?
29:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Does she not want to be my friend anymore?
29:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Does she not want to be in my life anymore?
30:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, does she think I'm disgusting?
30:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Does she think I'm literable?
30:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, is everything going to change?
30:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And once again, like, that's like my crazy brain.
30:09
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that like that's how I read it in those moments.
30:13
[SPEAKER_01]: It was for me.
30:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It was two minutes too long, but that says more about me and how I respond to things than probably Buffy and how she responded to things.
30:24
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think it's a fair ask that you want.
30:28
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, your friends to show you love and empathy.
30:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think if it was more than two minutes, we'd have be having a different conversation.
30:35
[SPEAKER_00]: If it was more than like a bit of nervousness, as she adjusts to a new perspective on her friend.
30:42
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's not like, again, this would be a whole different thing.
30:44
[SPEAKER_00]: If the whole episode was Buffy making weird comments being like, I don't know how to talk to her now.
30:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And then by the end of the episode, she's like, you know what, I'm okay.
30:53
[SPEAKER_00]: But she had like a moment of nervousness.
30:56
[SPEAKER_00]: because she encountered something that felt new to her and one of her closest friends and then willow to her credit.
31:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Asked her directly, hey, are you freaked out?
31:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And you watched her take a breath and realized she wasn't.
31:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, I don't know, I haven't always reacted properly to things.
31:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I think having, uh, is grace a super religious thing.
31:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I never, but like having a moment of grace for a friend adjusting.
31:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
31:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, as someone who, um, yeah, I just, I think having like a moment of, look, I'm happy that other than, you know, a few negative experiences, most of my friends were like super immediately chill because when I first started talking to people, I remember thinking, oh my gosh, is it gonna be like weird and awkward?
31:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And the fact that I didn't have to sit through two minutes of my friend feeling awkward, the fact that it was immediately like,
31:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, cool.
31:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Great.
31:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for telling me.
31:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt better and I realized, oh, this doesn't have to like hold any place of awkwardness in me.
32:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So I definitely understand why you'd be sensitive.
32:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sort of processing allowed the question.
32:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I am curious if people who are listening who are queer or had to come out about whatever it is, like maybe like whatever it is you felt like in your life, if
32:20
[SPEAKER_00]: what they think, because I don't speak for a person.
32:24
[SPEAKER_02]: It's definitely different.
32:25
[SPEAKER_02]: It's definitely felt like Bobby was just processing.
32:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Like she didn't have, it was just something was different.
32:31
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?
32:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Like she's learning a new thing about her friend and sometimes that takes a second to fully formulate in your brain.
32:39
[SPEAKER_02]: especially when you've only ever known Willow dating Oz and Oz is back in town like there's a lot of new information and you know Tara this isn't just some random person you know her you've met her I think it's like a lot of new information being thrown at Buffy amongst everything going everything else going on at the moment
32:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
32:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Rounded in like a real a real reaction of a friend in the nineties being like, I'm kind of in love with this woman.
33:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
33:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And like on top of that, there's also the news of like, Oh, Oz has figured out how not to shift when there's the fall moon.
33:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And that like, you know, he takes some herbs or whatever, like he went to a Tibetan monk like there's this all the stuff and like apparently he's able to stop, which I don't really know how any of that works.
33:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I, I mean, this is the thing.
33:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I truly do not, and I know like we're on a hell mouth.
33:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It's magic, blah, blah, blah.
33:29
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's like we had these rules like during moon time, he turns into wolf.
33:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't like other times when he was a, oh, but he was always so calm.
33:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe he was just always calm.
33:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he, because like we never saw
33:47
[SPEAKER_01]: him and encourage me if I'm wrong, like get super worked up or emotional or angry.
33:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, turn into a little heated.
33:56
[SPEAKER_00]: When it was just sander and walked in on and then did one willow gets he could nap teeth rose the thing against the.
34:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he does certainly get worked up, but like maybe, but does he turn into a wolf?
34:08
[SPEAKER_02]: No, but that's what I'm saying.
34:10
[SPEAKER_00]: No, and I'm
34:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I was just going to say I think like if we look at the full moon is like his release if you will like his outlet that's when he turns into a werewolf and then like the rest of the month he's already released so he's like fine but because he has this like pent up
34:29
[SPEAKER_02]: We're with Venus, seeping in, seeping out.
34:32
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, yeah, it's like then he gets emotional or like, however you want to freeze it and it has to release it has to come down.
34:39
[SPEAKER_00]: He he always can feel it.
34:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I remember he get he has a really badass line in a high school season where he goes times up rules change and then he turns into a wolf.
34:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think so he definitely can feel it.
34:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
34:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And he has wolf equalities, even when he's not aware, well, like even this episode and in prior episodes.
34:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Mel Willow, like he, he does have those qualities.
35:02
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just he's been suppressing it, but it wants the sad thing is right when he finds out about Tara and Willow.
35:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it sends, I think it is something that doesn't work in his brain.
35:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he is just like, oh my god, this is different than what I was expecting.
35:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I didn't know about this.
35:22
[SPEAKER_02]: She didn't tell me I thought we were going to be able to pick right up where we left off.
35:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And now we can.
35:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a lot of information.
35:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I think he is trying to process not only about
35:35
[SPEAKER_02]: the woman he's in love with being in love with somebody else, but that the person that she's in love with is another woman and that she didn't tell him about it.
35:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, right, they talked all night.
35:45
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a long time.
35:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think he's very much caught off guard and upset, like very upset.
35:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what kind of sparked the wolfiness.
35:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Before we like change the subject, I will also say that like, sure, it changes the lore of where wolves, but I think Buffy does a really good job as a show that you are presented with a mythological thing and then they go deeper into it, right?
36:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And it evolves.
36:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, we're shown what a vampire is.
36:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Vampires are bad.
36:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Vampires don't have souls and then we're shown angel, like right away.
36:21
[SPEAKER_00]: or we're shown even, I know we haven't gone that deep into it yet, season five explores it way more, but we're given this is what a slayer is.
36:30
[SPEAKER_00]: A slayer is the one girl in all the world.
36:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And then in season five, they begin to unpack what exactly is a slayer?
36:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Where does a slayer come from?
36:38
[SPEAKER_00]: What does this mean for Buffy?
36:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it tracks within the show to be like, here's a wear wolf.
36:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when Os leaves in that arc with Veruca or whatever,
36:49
[SPEAKER_00]: She goes, the wolf's in you all along.
36:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's always in you.
36:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just a thing that comes out, which foreshadows him being like, okay, if the wolf's in me all along, can I adjust it?
36:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're shown with magic.
37:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, okay, this is what witchcraft is.
37:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're getting deeper and deeper into Willow and Willow and Tara exploring what witchcraft is.
37:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So while it does change the lore, the show does a good job of constantly evolving what these things are.
37:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I mean, I found it to be so interesting, right?
37:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Tara doesn't want to out willow and she certainly doesn't want to anger Oz.
37:29
[SPEAKER_02]: This person she doesn't really know and like out now tell him about her in willow, but like he knows and then this is a credit to Tara honestly.
37:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Like when he he changes she he tells her to run because he knows what he's about what's about to happen.
37:48
[SPEAKER_02]: He can't control it.
37:50
[SPEAKER_02]: She runs she
37:51
[SPEAKER_02]: She throws a chair at him, which truly made me laugh so hard.
37:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And I rebounded him, watched it a number of times, because I found it so hysterical.
37:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Because at first, when I watched it, I thought the chair is what took him out, but it was being initiative that whatever the heck it's called, tranquilizer dart.
38:09
[SPEAKER_02]: credit to Tara that the, she tries to stop them, but they bowl on over her, the initiative is like, oh, don't you worry, pretty little, Loney, we got this covered.
38:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, so annoying.
38:20
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't with the man's blaming.
38:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And she immediately goes to willow and is like, they have odds.
38:25
[SPEAKER_02]: We need to save him.
38:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, she,
38:27
[SPEAKER_02]: There's not an ounce of pettiness in her.
38:29
[SPEAKER_02]: There is not an ounce of like, well, if Az is in a problem anymore, like Willow and I are free to be together, right?
38:36
[SPEAKER_02]: She, the first thing she does is go to Willow and tell her what happened and try to like help them formulate a plan to get us out there.
38:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I just wanted to like give Tara all the credit in the world because I'm still listen.
38:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I have not forgotten about the dust under the rug.
38:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, like I've not forgotten about that.
38:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know there's more to it.
38:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm having a very hard time not loving Tara.
38:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I don't want to like fully put my heart all the way out there for her to like stomp on because there could be something going on with her.
39:04
[SPEAKER_02]: But I feel like she just has such pure intentions.
39:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And I found what she did with the whole odd situation to be like incredibly selfless in a way that I don't, I don't know that every character would be that way.
39:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I don't know if I would be that way, you know, like she is so, that guy just tried to attack her.
39:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, he was a wearable, but like still she could have died.
39:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And she's just like, well, your ex boyfriend is a wearable, if he's been captured.
39:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, like, wow, what a level head, Sarah.
39:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't handle it.
39:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm starting to think that like the dust thing is something kind of innocent or something like inward.
39:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we're saying that she's a girl that has like insecurities.
39:42
[SPEAKER_01]: We're saying that she's a girl that like doesn't really, it's not very confident in herself.
39:47
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't really know much about her past.
39:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, is it that
39:52
[SPEAKER_01]: where she comes from, which is her burned at the stake.
39:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So even though she is a witch, she has been conditioned to not do magic or something.
40:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, maybe that is make sense.
40:07
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, maybe it's something like, oh, when I do, maybe she did magic and then she would get her like, ass beat by her mom.
40:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So then whenever she does it, she has to like,
40:19
[SPEAKER_01]: she feels like she's bad doing it.
40:24
[SPEAKER_01]: It's something in word.
40:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that there's a world that she's evil.
40:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's like a battle within herself is going on is what I'm feeling.
40:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
40:36
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you feel about that, Jess?
40:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that could track.
40:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Like my assumption at the time was that because the whole spell they were doing was to like track demons.
40:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was basically going to be a map and show them where demons were.
40:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And I thought, well, maybe she has some sort of like demon heritage and right.
40:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's going to show up or she like thinks this is a demon somehow.
41:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I just don't think I'm in her demon.
41:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I have demons.
41:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a real demon.
41:07
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, I think I'm a demon.
41:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, like there's no like pregnancy test equivalent to a demon.
41:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you can't just pee on a stick and it's like, excuse me, what about like ancestry DNA or whatever the hell?
41:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
41:24
[SPEAKER_01]: There's so many lawsuits like maybe that's what she needs to do.
41:27
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like she needs to like send in her DNA.
41:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It comes back like are you demon?
41:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you which are you twenty three in me?
41:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, twenty three and evil me.
41:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
41:39
[SPEAKER_02]: There's something there.
41:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Twenty three in demon.
41:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think yeah, I don't think what I don't think it was like
41:47
[SPEAKER_02]: malicious.
41:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was like protective if you will because she doesn't want willow to know about her.
41:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's something there.
41:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I know.
42:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't come on on any of this because she knows the.
42:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I am.
42:04
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's I like watch.
42:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I like listening to you guys make predictions.
42:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I also an annoyance I have not to shift a little bit is that I feel like and I unlike Sarah love Oz.
42:16
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm going to be fair and criticize where I think criticism is deserved, which I got annoyed that it's really presented as
42:26
[SPEAKER_00]: The problem with her not getting back with Oz is Tara, when, you know, he just ghosted.
42:32
[SPEAKER_00]: He, you know, he didn't tell her where he was.
42:36
[SPEAKER_00]: He left, he moved out.
42:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, Willow was distraught.
42:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Willow was really destroyed by not just what he did, but the way he did it.
42:46
[SPEAKER_00]: This shows really big about choice.
42:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And he didn't give her much choice.
42:50
[SPEAKER_00]: There wasn't much choice.
42:51
[SPEAKER_00]: He just sort of was like, I'm leaving.
42:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're not going to be able to reach me.
42:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like that.
42:58
[SPEAKER_00]: and getting through that wasn't addressed as much as, I mean, I wonder if you guys think it was, but that it wasn't like, Oz really broke my heart, and I don't know that I can get back to the place.
43:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, there's Tara, and I've evolved because of both the pain and meeting Tara.
43:17
[SPEAKER_00]: It was sort of like, even what she says to Buffy, she's like, well, it's
43:21
[SPEAKER_00]: a problem because Buffy's like, what?
43:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a wall with the whos and the whos, where's your woohoo?
43:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, yeah, it's an issue because of Tara.
43:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas if I'm Buffy, I'm also like, yeah, if you don't want me to forgive him, I don't have to.
43:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And I love, again, I love Willow and Oz.
43:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I really have a soft spot when they're looking at the moon, you have the, um,
43:42
[SPEAKER_00]: the Christoph back, the score that plays where it's like reminds you of their high school love, like I love them, but I'm not sure the pain is acknowledged enough for me.
43:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that they both have her each other.
43:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think that how Willow her Oz was addressed properly either.
44:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll get this fair.
44:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, for me, I
44:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, like I think that like there was definitely, I think that it was the right move for Oz to go off and find himself.
44:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And in that moment, because
44:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think that like he felt like really bad thoughts about himself about being a aware wolf about being a guy that cheated.
44:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think that like he needed to get the space.
44:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd like that he went to tie bad and like did his meditation or whatever.
44:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, played with his little potions.
44:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if I have like such a problem with him.
44:49
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't, she didn't have a say, but then she didn't have a say in him leaving this time around either.
44:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, well, that's going to do for me too.
44:57
[SPEAKER_01]: He just goes off.
44:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And then also like, you know, talking about like, I don't know, maybe it was he maybe he was more upset about
45:07
[SPEAKER_01]: the she has interest in this person that and we had like a eight hour conversation and she didn't bring it up, but it was also reading like kind of
45:20
[SPEAKER_01]: prejudice as well in that moment.
45:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like getting a huge egg from that as well.
45:28
[SPEAKER_01]: But maybe once again, I'm reading too much into it.
45:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I'm like taking it.
45:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's hard to sleep.
45:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's hard to separate like.
45:40
[SPEAKER_02]: is he shocked because she is dating someone else, or is he shocked because the person she's dating is a woman?
45:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I think it's really hard to separate those two things.
45:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like saying, like, she's like, like, her smell is all over you.
45:58
[SPEAKER_02]: He says, uh, he says, uh, he says, you smell like her, she's all over you.
46:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Is what, like obviously they had just, and then what else?
46:06
[SPEAKER_02]: What else?
46:06
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you say after that?
46:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, that's when he like grabbed her, I think.
46:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Now I'm open.
46:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I'm open to any interpretation if someone is like, you know, I really read this this way.
46:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess for me, I don't feel like he made
46:22
[SPEAKER_00]: to rockatory comments about her being a woman.
46:24
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, it felt like, oh my gosh, the person that I have kind of evolved for and all this thing has evolved past me and is in love with someone else.
46:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, I didn't like how he talked to Tara where I will give it a bit of a pass, though, is it seemed like that was the wolf about to come out.
46:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It seemed like he was mid wolf almost because he
46:46
[SPEAKER_00]: literally turned into his werewolf right after that.
46:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of that, you smell like her that anger that sort of unawse like thing felt like an animalistic urge to protect.
47:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
47:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I mean, I mean, it's not a hidden fact that like I have a like a bias against us.
47:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So I interpret scenes like I don't like that as my favorite.
47:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, especially when I'm feeling very pro.
47:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Tilo.
47:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm like protected of that.
47:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
47:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
47:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to like both.
47:24
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really hard to like both because get off my fucking screen.
47:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Get out of here.
47:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Like don't write my next plane to me how it's hard to like both.
47:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe because you want my room for no, because it's hard to like both was and Tilo because I like both of them are hard at all.
47:40
[SPEAKER_02]: But I want both of them to work out.
47:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It's because I want both of them to work out.
47:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me defend this.
47:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want both of them to work out.
47:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I just can appreciate that Oz was her first love.
47:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Just like whether you like it or not, Zander was her first childhood crush.
47:58
[SPEAKER_00]: We all can relate to what it feels like to have a childhood crush.
48:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Oz was her first love when she was this
48:05
[SPEAKER_00]: shy unable to stand up for herself girl.
48:08
[SPEAKER_00]: He saw her in a room of people wearing a giant eskimo costume and went, who is that?
48:14
[SPEAKER_00]: He, unlike Zander, who was so hormonal and selfish during high school, Oz was remarkably selfless, multiple times during high school.
48:24
[SPEAKER_00]: When the cheating happened, he decided, and I'm not saying you have to stay with someone who cheats or got that's the selfless thing, but he decided to put his emotions aside, his anger aside to foster their love again when he needed space after she cheated.
48:41
[SPEAKER_00]: very, very gently was like, I know you're in pain too.
48:44
[SPEAKER_00]: He always saw outside himself and he loved her despite herself being so deeply buried.
48:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like he dug her out of this sort of buried sense of self and was a beautiful first love.
48:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And the way she describes towards the end of the episode that some part of her will always love that and love him.
49:05
[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, she has
49:07
[SPEAKER_00]: In her sense of self evolved past the need for that kind of love right now.
49:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that you can like both of them and it doesn't mean you want her to be with both of them.
49:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I love them in their big, puffy coats like under the full moon and I also love willow for her now and I I can love both of them and I can know that different loves are for different times in your life and it doesn't
49:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean that like one negates the other.
49:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm also like, this is just Sarah, you talked, I know I feel like every time I talk, I'm more randomly.
49:40
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, like I just, like first of all, well said before before you continue.
49:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I acknowledge that argument, I think it's extremely well thought out.
49:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Well said, I do agree with it.
49:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that there are a lot of moments that
49:57
[SPEAKER_01]: that Oz was a great first love for Willow.
50:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was really, and I just think it's, you know, I like, may find a Willow's costume at the time.
50:07
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do think that it's like really special and sweet for him to see her being her true quirky self and falling in love with that while Zander would have pulled a like Joey wearing a pretty dress.
50:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Literally a dollar.
50:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I guess so to to go alongside what Hannah was saying, I totally agree that there are like certain loves that it's like this relationship helped me grow and if not for this relationship and what I learned from it, I wouldn't be able to get into the next one and like love the next
50:46
[SPEAKER_02]: person and be able to be, have learned from that relationship the do's and don'ts and like, you know, learn about yourself and all that stuff is so true.
50:54
[SPEAKER_02]: It's more so that like, I agree.
50:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I think Tara is good for the willow that she is now and the willow that she wants to be.
51:04
[SPEAKER_02]: But I also can recognize that like,
51:07
[SPEAKER_02]: I really love Oz and I love that like let's face it like the way he left wasn't great.
51:13
[SPEAKER_02]: No, like she was heartbroken and it was really awful.
51:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there was almost no communication and it was so sudden and like so like cold turkey right is like the way I think of it.
51:24
[SPEAKER_02]: But he was doing all of that to fix himself and find himself so that he could be a better person and not put her life in jeopardy, right?
51:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he was afraid of hurting her and he needed to fix himself to then be a better boyfriend and be able to be present for her.
51:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And hammer turning thinking that he did that is like so lovely.
51:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, it doesn't excuse the mistakes he's made.
51:47
[SPEAKER_02]: She's made mistakes too.
51:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I felt like this episode, it wasn't as much of a like, if not for Tara, you know, or like, Tara is the reason we're not together.
51:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I really did feel like they did a good job at being like, no, Willow has just moved on from that point in her life where she was with us.
52:08
[SPEAKER_02]: But I loved that they could still reflect fondly on it and that they could still point out that like, I missed you.
52:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I missed
52:18
[SPEAKER_02]: us and not even like a necessarily like romantic us, but like the relationship that we had, like I miss, I miss being able to talk to you and confide in you right now.
52:28
[SPEAKER_02]: They stayed up all night talking.
52:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that is like friends do that.
52:32
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?
52:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Does that have to be romantic for that to happen?
52:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And the fact that she says like some part of me will always be waiting for you.
52:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that feels really true to what it's
52:43
[SPEAKER_02]: like to maybe not not the first love but like kind of have that um what if love right of like what if it had worked out and so the reason I say it's hard to be both a pillow and a was fan is because I just want both of them to work out like I want both really and you can't have that like it's not well you could but this isn't a trouble um like
53:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I just, I want, I want both of those things to work out for her.
53:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And I can recognize that Oz isn't the right person for her to be with right now, but I also just really love Oz.
53:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like he worked so hard.
53:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And yes, he worked hard for himself.
53:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, let me say that very clearly.
53:23
[SPEAKER_02]: The work he did into bet and the work he's doing to try to not be so wolfy if he doesn't want to be is for himself and for the safety of others, but also he will was a motivating factor for him and I just I find it hard to be mad at him even though he did again make mistakes.
53:42
[SPEAKER_02]: the way he approaches Willow the way he says like we can go eat or we can like stay here and he like holds her hand and she says like very clearly like let's go eat and he's he's like okay let's go eat like he doesn't he's not forceful he's not pushy like he wants to get back together with Willow but he wants it to be like her pace so
54:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I just feel like Oz does a lot of right things this episode and the stuff that he does wrong, generally, they're kind of out of his control with the wearable stuff.
54:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the mistakes he's made in my opinion are mostly how he left to begin with.
54:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And like he's also leading there suddenly now, which I don't know what he has to do, right?
54:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he can, he's saying Willow is the reason he had turned, right?
54:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the emotions he felt in that moment are the reason he turned.
54:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And so he can't really be around her.
54:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that that's true, and I also feel like, not to bring the dog training into it, but like, what is it called, like, positive reinforcement training?
54:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, yes, but like, when you put yourself in a situation where, like, if you have a reactive dog and you like, you bring them outside around other dogs and like give them treats for when they're paying attention to, you know what I mean?
54:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Like push their therapy.
54:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you exposure therapy.
54:56
[SPEAKER_02]: That was what I was trying to think of.
54:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
54:58
[SPEAKER_00]: My dog and I work on some of the same stuff.
55:00
[SPEAKER_00]: To be clear, I don't have a problem with him deciding to leave.
55:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I do find it, you know, Will is really good on a computer.
55:09
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't email her from Tibet.
55:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I also think that the end there's two interpretations.
55:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And one is a bit
55:18
[SPEAKER_00]: more disappointing, which is that Willow never actually gets to make a choice, which it would be frustrating that, that Oz once again makes the choice, then there's the second interpretation, which is that Willow's already made this choice.
55:30
[SPEAKER_00]: She's coming out to her friends, and Oz's choice to leave is a reflection of her choice.
55:36
[SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't go, please stay.
55:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And I like that second interpretation better, plus he had to go film Austin Powers.
55:43
[SPEAKER_00]: He had stuff to do.
55:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
55:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's tricky to your point Hannah because when we see Willow choose Tara.
55:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it isn't the scene after after Oz leaves like that scene doesn't take place before he leaves it's after.
56:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish they would have reordered that personally.
56:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that if that's the narrative we're going with, which I completely agree with, I think it's better if she chooses Tara first and then Oz leaves and maybe it's a little funky order that way, but I think yeah, like she she goes to Tara's room and basically says she's in love with her because Tara says like, oh, you should be with who you love.
56:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And she says I already am and
56:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm very upset that first of all, you didn't get a kiss, but we, I mean, first of all, they've definitely had sex now.
56:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, because I like, let's face it.
56:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Tara smells like willow and willow is, willow is going to do things to tear it tonight because that is what ends and I'm like, they're doing things.
56:43
[SPEAKER_00]: They're doing things right now.
56:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Lights off, but the parental groups are just going to have to imagine it.
56:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree with you, actually.
56:52
[SPEAKER_00]: The show's whole philosophy is the importance of choice.
56:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd like to lean into the second interpretation for my own heart and think that she kind of buy coming out.
57:03
[SPEAKER_00]: That was her choosing, but you're right.
57:04
[SPEAKER_00]: They could have reordered it.
57:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I also, I mean, one last, because Sarah, you talked about how your own personal stuff made Buffy's initial nervousness so hard.
57:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I also think I'm interpreting
57:17
[SPEAKER_00]: the whole, I can, I can love both of them easily through my own perspective, which is that I don't like, I think being in a relationship, I don't get angry or jealous about like past loves or things.
57:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually want to hear about it, which I realize might be weird, but I realize it's just, I want to know the person really well, and I want to know the story of how different people affected.
57:41
[SPEAKER_00]: them.
57:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe if I was in a situation like a less secure relationship in certain ways, I wouldn't feel that way.
57:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd feel a different way.
57:51
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know.
57:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
57:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that makes me odd.
57:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I want to sentence.
57:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think that like, I don't know, I don't also don't believe in soul mates, so I'm not like, oh, you, the one that got away soul mates, I believe that you fall in love with someone and then you make the choice to be with them and it's that choice that's so beautiful because
58:15
[SPEAKER_00]: all we have in an uncaring world is our choices, right?
58:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the choice to stay with someone and to partner with them and to spend a lot to me that maybe if I believe in soulmates, I would be angrier about past loves or whatever.
58:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not that I'd never experienced jealousy to be clear on human.
58:34
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know, I was thinking Sarah when I was like, think about how you reacted to Buffy's two minutes.
58:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's why I react this way to Oz and Willow where I'm like, no, it makes sense to me.
58:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes, it makes, it makes complete sense that she can have that love that she can even have her like high school crush on Zander, her add a lesson.
58:53
[SPEAKER_00]: They were in like elementary school and that that can be a thing that was important to her and and a love in a certain way as well.
59:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that like a lot of people
59:07
[SPEAKER_01]: like expect you to like hate your exes or hold like anger or resentment, but I think like the you become like the most evolved version of yourself when you can look back and be like I really
59:24
[SPEAKER_01]: love the love that I had for a period of time but they no longer became my person like obviously clear like I don't know like if I'm totally there with my ex of sixteen years but I hope that like I get to a point where I get there you know like I'm still in the process of being like why did a lot of the stuff have to happen well I mean the reason is because now I'm in
59:48
[SPEAKER_01]: a place now where I'm in like a healthy stable relationship that fulfills me.
59:55
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but, I mean, I don't think that like, I think like a lot of the time just like, well, fuck my eggs.
1:00:02
[SPEAKER_01]: If like I had to do this with my, it would be terrible.
1:00:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it doesn't have to be, you know?
1:00:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess like to have like Willow and Oz come to a place of being like, okay, is probably is very best case scenario.
1:00:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
1:00:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't, it'd be difficult.
1:00:20
[SPEAKER_02]: I was just going to say if they didn't have this conversation, if he doesn't return, I do think there's always that lingering question out there.
1:00:27
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like there's there's just a not closure and and this is like a really nice way to kind of close the door on one thing to really like put a final thing on it or even a final for now thing on it to be able to be personal.
1:00:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think he'll be, I think he'll come back, but yeah.
1:00:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I, I think that it, I don't believe like everything happens for a reason.
1:00:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I don't, I don't believe that.
1:00:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't believe that like we're faded to do certain things.
1:00:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I need to believe that stuff.
1:00:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I, and I, and I respect that.
1:00:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I don't think everything happens for a reason.
1:01:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think you are supposed to go through pain like that.
1:01:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I think people do that to comfort themselves and but I do believe.
1:01:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I do believe that like not every relationship or past love.
1:01:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I don't it's not like I'm like every like look at the X who treated you horribly and be like, I want to be clear.
1:01:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying that you're right.
1:01:22
[SPEAKER_00]: You're like in a case like this where Willow loved Oz and loves Tara.
1:01:30
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.
1:01:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that's weird, but I just don't believe it's mutually exclusive.
1:01:38
[SPEAKER_00]: But this story line.
1:01:40
[SPEAKER_00]: highlights a part of season four I love, which is that our characters are so have so much depth now and are so evolved.
1:01:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And are so natural with each other, like it feels like they really know each other.
1:01:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think you guys rewatching season four every time you guys said, well, the people who don't like season four just probably don't like fun.
1:02:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought, I'm fun.
1:02:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm fun.
1:02:06
[SPEAKER_00]: But I realize we're watching season four.
1:02:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, actually,
1:02:10
[SPEAKER_00]: There are so many things I love about season four, like something blue, hush.
1:02:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And even just a natural wish, naturalness of which the character is banter with each other on the meeting and the beginning of the episode.
1:02:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, God, is this over yet?
1:02:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Like beautiful.
1:02:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:02:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to be clear that like, there is a lot to love.
1:02:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I think when we get into the other plot line, we'll get into what where I find it frustrating, which is not the fun, but my favorite episodes this season have nothing to do with the main story arc and have everything to do with the fact that our characters could sit in a room together and chat at this point and I would watch it.
1:02:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And the episodes are so creative and bold.
1:02:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this episode in terms of like we have these two peaws and will have so much history now.
1:03:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And Tara and Amber Benson's performance looks beautifully written.
1:03:04
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not a season.
1:03:05
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't get this in an earlier season.
1:03:07
[SPEAKER_00]: How much depth it has.
1:03:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's because the history builds on itself, and they're always referencing it, and it never feels, it never feels like, which it has with other shows we've covered.
1:03:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, has this show seen itself?
1:03:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, did we not remember the XYZ, like the, the whole Korean to Pinka have been in love forever?
1:03:24
[SPEAKER_02]: No, they haven't.
1:03:25
[SPEAKER_02]: We watched it.
1:03:26
[SPEAKER_02]: It didn't happen forever or go.
1:03:28
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's, this show is very self-referential.
1:03:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, I'm fully, I'm fully here saying season four is a vibes season.
1:03:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:03:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, if you're here for the good vibes,
1:03:38
[SPEAKER_02]: then you'll love it if you're here for like the the main season long story arc like you'll probably be disappointed at least because the initiative is is what it is what I will say Sarah and we've said this before is that at the very least
1:03:53
[SPEAKER_02]: That that main storyline has been there all season.
1:03:56
[SPEAKER_02]: It didn't just come out of nowhere.
1:03:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, yeah, that's true.
1:03:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was very frustrating for me to feel like we were just aimlessly wandering around for like episode upon episode.
1:04:06
[SPEAKER_02]: They've always been there and as much as like the Adam storyline is stupid and like the initiative is what it is.
1:04:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I will fully say it, Sarah.
1:04:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Like in your defense of Ruffy, I feel like Riley had a really great like character progressive moment this up.
1:04:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I disagree so strongly.
1:04:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to start this off.
1:04:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I have two pages of notes because Sarah said I'm going to come on to the core.
1:04:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So hold on a sec.
1:04:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to explain exactly what it is.
1:04:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Sarah said, I love Riley.
1:04:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this episode for him.
1:04:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, that's fine.
1:04:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And she said, I'm going to shit on.
1:04:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So I took.
1:04:45
[SPEAKER_00]: pages of notes.
1:04:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I would like to start off by asking you a question, Sarah.
1:04:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay.
1:04:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
1:04:50
[SPEAKER_00]: He punches a guy and says, I'm an anarchist and everyone was, but I have a question a couple episodes ago.
1:04:57
[SPEAKER_00]: He was having the same exact crisis of faith in Willie's bar where he pointed a gun at a woman was all shaky and then was like, oh my God, I don't know what good and bad is like who am I?
1:05:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And now he's back in the military like nothing fucking happened because
1:05:15
[SPEAKER_00]: For plot reasons, we just have to reset his crisis of faith.
1:05:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, Buffy last season when she left the council was like, I call it graduation.
1:05:26
[SPEAKER_00]: We watch this crisis of faith in a character I actually care about.
1:05:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So now we have this white bread of a man and I have to watch him have the same crisis of faith again and again and again.
1:05:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't why I love that you love him.
1:05:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And here's why I want to love
1:05:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to love it.
1:05:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I do.
1:05:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to.
1:05:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I just, there are so many cool characters like that are these sorts of people, right?
1:05:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Norl people that have also like this background as a military guy, but people with actual personalities.
1:06:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I could not list personality traits for this man outside of like army boy who is supposedly good boyfriend.
1:06:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So very good friend.
1:06:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So my first question is, haven't we already seen this crisis of faith from, from him like two episodes ago?
1:06:18
[SPEAKER_00]: He had his start around his hand.
1:06:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I mean, absolutely, however, I feel as though he needed more time to figure out that this life wasn't for him.
1:06:32
[SPEAKER_01]: He has been brought up for good notes, how long that, you know, he was going to be this military guy.
1:06:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I envisioned him in military school in high school.
1:06:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, we don't know.
1:06:45
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't say it, but like in my head, Canon, I think that he's been built up to be this career, this like good soldier.
1:06:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that we started seeing that exterior crack bit by bit.
1:06:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think he needed more time.
1:07:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's awesome that a character like Buffy can know herself well enough to like to be a system from the very first.
1:07:10
[SPEAKER_01]: from the very, I think that's awesome.
1:07:11
[SPEAKER_01]: However, I think that that is a unique quality tree.
1:07:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that there's a lot of people that are slower burns and need more time.
1:07:19
[SPEAKER_01]: She was a slow burn.
1:07:22
[SPEAKER_00]: She took all of high.
1:07:23
[SPEAKER_00]: She was she listened to watchers order.
1:07:25
[SPEAKER_00]: She took all of high school.
1:07:26
[SPEAKER_00]: She was a bit rebellious.
1:07:29
[SPEAKER_00]: She wasn't.
1:07:30
[SPEAKER_00]: been rebellious, but she was like part of the watchers counsel.
1:07:34
[SPEAKER_00]: She like decided to take on the mantle of the slayer her responsibility.
1:07:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Like she was and then when she was a teen, she like started to question the patriarchy.
1:07:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I either counsel like I felt like we've seen her rebel in this way.
1:07:49
[SPEAKER_01]: We I think that we have seen Buffy always be part like not the perfect textbook slayer throughout first meeting her and then on to however.
1:08:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, we haven't had three seasons.
1:08:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, maybe fortunately for you.
1:08:09
[SPEAKER_01]: We haven't had three seasons of Riley, but I believe that he's always been that textbook soldier.
1:08:16
[SPEAKER_01]: That good boy.
1:08:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that it took him
1:08:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It was probably a larger leap for him to leave the military and to go against it.
1:08:29
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also think that we've seen him chip away at that bit by bit.
1:08:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that him, you know, he was hooked up to those monitors holding the scarf and they didn't want him to leave.
1:08:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And they ultimately, he was like, I'm not backing down.
1:08:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm leaving.
1:08:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to find Buffy.
1:08:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that that was like a chip there.
1:08:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he goes back in another argument is that he needs to be part of the system still to keep tabs on Adam and he has barely a spy.
1:09:02
[SPEAKER_00]: This is idea that he's like back there to like keep tabs on the initiative.
1:09:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's what I'll say.
1:09:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to be harsh on Riley because I promise to be if you're listening and you love Riley, please don't hate me for the rest of the time.
1:09:14
[SPEAKER_02]: No one lives really except Sarah.
1:09:15
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, look, I find him to look.
1:09:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I have more questions for you.
1:09:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But I know I've tried to do you guys this, but Riley is an undecided voter who decides not to vote because he doesn't have enough information.
1:09:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, he just reads to me guy who puts moderate on his dating profile.
1:09:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I just, I don't.
1:09:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, Jim from the office.
1:09:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Love Jim from the office.
1:09:47
[SPEAKER_00]: No, there's a connection here.
1:09:49
[SPEAKER_00]: There's just very funny thing.
1:09:52
[SPEAKER_00]: But he's a tall white man.
1:09:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And if he was secretly a spy, I'd be like, amazing.
1:09:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's this guy supposedly just at his desk, just a paper salesman.
1:10:02
[SPEAKER_00]: But he's got so much personality that went by the time he becomes spy, I'd be like, yes, so many characters in the last of us.
1:10:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a spy, but I don't have super powers.
1:10:13
[SPEAKER_00]: My problem with Riley is they wanted to give her like the nice guy to date, and that's totally fine.
1:10:21
[SPEAKER_00]: But unless he's talking to his friend Forest or whatever his name is, like they put his the most misogic
1:10:28
[SPEAKER_00]: biznaugienistic guy next to him so that Riley's like, hey, don't say my girlfriends like a toilet seat because, oh, that was Parker because of being used.
1:10:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So they put him next to misogyny.
1:10:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And so he is the nice guy option.
1:10:42
[SPEAKER_00]: But I am not understanding what his personality, like I don't get, like when, like, what is his personality?
1:10:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I wish we got to know Riley's a T.A.
1:10:52
[SPEAKER_00]: here's the thing fall in love with a person.
1:10:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Riley, they make Riley more interesting by making him shirtless and almost every scene he's in.
1:11:00
[SPEAKER_00]: He has no hair on that chest like a little personality and a little body hair.
1:11:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's the thing.
1:11:11
[SPEAKER_02]: I will give him credit for where I feel like there is character growth and I will I will defend like going back to the military sucks obviously like that's a bad move he's not eating the drugd food right like he is like taking a stand against certain things and I do I agree with Sarah that I think
1:11:29
[SPEAKER_02]: It takes a character like Riley longer to actually change and to actually like see things clearly and make a decision that puts him out of that situation, right, becoming an anarchist or whatever you want to call it.
1:11:42
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think the problem is that.
1:11:48
[SPEAKER_02]: he's so boring that like I don't enjoy watching him and that's the problem because that we're watching this for entertainment right and I don't find him to be entertaining and I find the things that it's taking the things that he's learning and the steps that he is taking to learn those things
1:12:06
[SPEAKER_02]: feels like it takes a long time for it to like, fully sink in.
1:12:12
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, why does it take again, that it goes back to the conversation we had before of like, it takes knowing a person to really being like, oh, I know a person who's aware will now.
1:12:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So I guess at all, where will serdangerous, right?
1:12:24
[SPEAKER_02]: It takes him far too long to be like, hey, what the initiative is doing is bad.
1:12:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, right, like, this is bad.
1:12:32
[SPEAKER_02]: We did a bad thing.
1:12:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I seem like a flip flopper when I say this, but here's, but before Sarah, I know you want to, I'm, you're going to, I know my biggest issue as Jess is talking.
1:12:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, if he was a character that took a while, if you're like, you know, ultimately, I think he's a good person because he's like stepping up my issue with this episode is how the show treats him.
1:12:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It's supposed to be that punch.
1:12:54
[SPEAKER_00]: The I'm an anarchist punch is is red as like this heroic moment.
1:12:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I like that he goes and saves us.
1:13:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I actually think that's great.
1:13:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's positive.
1:13:05
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's like he's treated as such this like this character that we've come to know and he's been struggling and then he does this thing and it's the way the show treats it that I just am like I feel like I have seen a character that I care about more stand up.
1:13:22
[SPEAKER_00]: against authority.
1:13:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And I also, I know part of the plot is they had to deal with Professor Walsh leaving.
1:13:28
[SPEAKER_00]: But I have some questions.
1:13:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what is the mission of the initiative now?
1:13:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do we see no conversations about how the architect of the initiative, Professor Walsh?
1:13:37
[SPEAKER_00]: created a mega monster.
1:13:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And no one seems to quite be addressing it.
1:13:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Now there's this guy who's like the new professor walls that we're supposed to listen to, why don't they have like an Adam division?
1:13:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is Riley not constantly like, well, my mentor before I went, you know, over to the Scoobies, my, my mentor professor, well, actually created this evil monster.
1:14:02
[SPEAKER_00]: How much of this is in our, it just feels
1:14:05
[SPEAKER_00]: it it feels like it got bogged down by plot holes and different things and then his moment just I don't I just don't care because I don't feel like I know him beyond like the nice guy to his misogynistic friend he likes race cars he has race car posters
1:14:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so like I think that I mean it's so many thoughts and I'm like not here for like a debate club, right, but so like I think that that's fair and I'm sorry.
1:14:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm trying to separate what I would say to my two friends versus what I would say on a podcast that post-naturally are nationally or into the ether.
1:14:54
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that, and I don't mean this disrespectfully.
1:14:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that your problem, our problem, is that Riley is a
1:15:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Midwestern white man who is is I think he's been boring.
1:15:16
[SPEAKER_02]: That's my problem with him.
1:15:17
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my problem, too.
1:15:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I get what you're saying.
1:15:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I know we are not like he needs a thing.
1:15:25
[SPEAKER_01]: He needs like a dash of space.
1:15:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I don't need him to have a thing.
1:15:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I need him to have a personality.
1:15:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think that it has a personality.
1:15:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I just think it's Midwestern nice like I and I know that like for a lot of people like that's not a personality, but like I think that you know from a small town.
1:15:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that he's probably a family guy.
1:15:45
[SPEAKER_01]: He probably has military background and his family through and through like I think that he
1:15:52
[SPEAKER_01]: probably likes Fourth of July and setting off a fireworker too.
1:15:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think that he likes to watch basketball.
1:16:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that he likes Freish cars.
1:16:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think that he's like, but all a mayor can you like that is attractive in the nineteen nineties, but to the average woman in twenty twenty something, he's not
1:16:15
[SPEAKER_01]: We are not looking for a can anymore.
1:16:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
1:16:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we spent so many years, like there's so many years that we were like, we like a can.
1:16:27
[SPEAKER_01]: We like a, I don't know.
1:16:31
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I respect what your what your perspective is and I don't want to be misinterpreted on this nationally published podcast.
1:16:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So I want to clarify.
1:16:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I liked the most I've ever liked Riley was when he was talking about cheese and trying to connect with fluffy.
1:16:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I have no
1:16:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I have no issues.
1:16:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Zero issue with like I a lot of my families from the Midwest.
1:16:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the idea.
1:16:57
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're gonna give him a personality like like the reason I bring up Jim Helpert is like if you give him not a thing, but if like you're gonna make him the quirky farm boy TA, then like let me get to know that guy for a minute.
1:17:10
[SPEAKER_00]: But so much of Riley feels like heavy handed.
1:17:14
[SPEAKER_00]: That's that's one thing and un-earned.
1:17:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm fine.
1:17:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It's maybe not my specific type, which is why I respect the perspective.
1:17:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like a Midwestern all my specific type either, but I've been dearing an adorable.
1:17:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I, maybe it's because I know like, maybe it's because I've seen the series.
1:17:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's part of it.
1:17:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to like check myself if like at this point, I'm like, but I just find that his behavior is very like he's constantly looking like the things I know about him is less about his cute Midwestern farm life.
1:17:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love to know more about that.
1:17:52
[SPEAKER_00]: But instead, I'm given like he loves authority figures and he moves from Professor Walsh to Buffy.
1:17:58
[SPEAKER_00]: He's constantly telling her that she's going to teach him in the relationship, which is fine.
1:18:03
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's like when I don't have much personality behind that, it's a lot of
1:18:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
1:18:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a lot of like professor Walsh told me what to do.
1:18:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Then she died and turned out to be evil.
1:18:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I need like Buffy to tell me what to do.
1:18:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I also just I don't buy their chemistry.
1:18:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I think really a thing they can't control.
1:18:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that like something blue, spike in Buffy had so much more tangible chemistry in like a joke episode.
1:18:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that they have more chemistry in a conversation than Riley and Buffy do in like a sex party episode.
1:18:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't, I wish.
1:18:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna say, well, I respect your perspective.
1:18:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's what type he is.
1:18:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's that I just don't know him well other than he loves Buffy and keeps having these big sort of heavy handed
1:19:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Breakdowns of his world.
1:19:01
[SPEAKER_00]: His world is falling apart.
1:19:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's doing a good job of slowly realizing that and standing up for himself.
1:19:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I have no issue with that.
1:19:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I just, I find him boring because I don't know who he is.
1:19:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, that is true.
1:19:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think that it's quite interesting that we have him literally as a
1:19:23
[SPEAKER_01]: character in the opening credits.
1:19:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe Ania is not in there.
1:19:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like he got to kind of like skip a couple steps.
1:19:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not quite sure why that is.
1:19:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it, is it earned?
1:19:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Was he a big name?
1:19:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't really know.
1:19:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't really know.
1:19:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't really know.
1:19:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think.
1:19:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I just because I'm with Hannah in terms of like I do find him to be rather bland in that I don't know that I have any identifying things about him beyond where he's from and the fact that he's like
1:20:04
[SPEAKER_02]: a little endearing at times, but like, okay, as an example, right, like your Oz as a character, right?
1:20:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I thought he's witty.
1:20:13
[SPEAKER_02]: He plays music.
1:20:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he, you know what I mean?
1:20:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I could name a very specific things about him.
1:20:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, there's been a longer amount of time for us to get to know Oz as a character.
1:20:22
[SPEAKER_02]: But I feel like I could list adjectives about Oz beyond like the very easy facts of like military Midwestern, right?
1:20:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I can list more personality quirks about Oz that I kind about Riley, who's now been a full-fledged cast member for the entire season.
1:20:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's the biggest knock against him.
1:20:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I will stand by that I think he makes a pretty decent boyfriend and like better than Angel by far, right?
1:20:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I think that like he makes a good boyfriend for Buffy, but the problem is that I just find him so boring that I don't care enough and like
1:21:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, he can make strides this episode, which I'll give him credit for.
1:21:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he is making strides and he is kind of slowly coming to the realization of like, hey, maybe the military's not so great.
1:21:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, hey, maybe the initiative like actually freaking sucks and all your friends are douche bags.
1:21:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that's not a fun thing to have to realize.
1:21:16
[SPEAKER_02]: So, of course, he's going to like
1:21:18
[SPEAKER_02]: put a little bit of like blinders on for a while about it because it sucks to realize that it shakes his entire foundation of his world.
1:21:26
[SPEAKER_02]: So that sucks.
1:21:27
[SPEAKER_02]: But like I agree with Hannah that I think like the chemistry is when you're comparing it, I think is my problem, right?
1:21:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what I'm comparing the chemistry that I see when Buffy who's really faith in faith, you know, faith, whatever.
1:21:43
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't matter, the actors,
1:21:45
[SPEAKER_02]: between Spike and Buffy have so much more chemistry.
1:21:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And I personally, you know, we've talked about this.
1:21:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I like an enemies to lovers thing.
1:21:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So like I'm more inclined to like that.
1:21:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I would rather be in the relationship that Ruffy has, but I would rather watch.
1:22:02
[SPEAKER_02]: a different really.
1:22:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just like cannot wait until we spend three seasons talking about spike and buffies toxic, asked relationship.
1:22:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:22:12
[SPEAKER_00]: No talk here.
1:22:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:22:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And enjoy it.
1:22:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, I just love how spike is nasty ass to another girl.
1:22:20
[SPEAKER_01]: That's going to be so fun.
1:22:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I just am going to love watching Buffy cry and wine.
1:22:26
[SPEAKER_01]: How she can't go outside with another boyfriend.
1:22:29
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be so endearing.
1:22:31
[SPEAKER_00]: But Sarah.
1:22:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Sarah, the difference, and I know you haven't watched that.
1:22:34
[SPEAKER_00]: The difference for me, the difference for me is how the show treats it.
1:22:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And I can't, I don't, I'm not going to spoil anything, but how the show treats something as good or bad is like how I view it.
1:22:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Riley and Buffy are fine, like in terms of how they work as a couple.
1:22:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's it for me, it's like the triumphantness of which they treat Riley as a viewer.
1:22:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I just doesn't feel like
1:22:58
[SPEAKER_00]: earned as a person.
1:22:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, where is?
1:23:01
[SPEAKER_00]: No, there is a thousand things already to criticize about spike in baffees for tension.
1:23:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying that the show doesn't treat it in the current iteration as a positive or healthy option, right?
1:23:18
[SPEAKER_00]: But like Riley is this like sort of triumphant character that like his world is falling apart.
1:23:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's also maybe part of it for me is that Riley more and more like you said he's in the credits feels like the main character and Buffy is sort of like to his side helping him.
1:23:36
[SPEAKER_00]: which is fine but just to me less interesting because I don't know much about Riley.
1:23:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even think that's true.
1:23:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I think like one of my favorite things about Riley is how he is like feeling like a sidekick to Buffy and that he's okay with that.
1:23:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he's not misogynistic about that.
1:23:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I find that that's one of the most attractive things that I find about Riley especially because he's a typical
1:24:04
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, military guy.
1:24:06
[SPEAKER_01]: A ball's poster.
1:24:08
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like a guy's guy.
1:24:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how many guys guys out there can get beat their asses from their girlfriends and be like, that's really cool that you're so strong.
1:24:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I love that about rightly.
1:24:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's one of the things that I think that he doesn't have much of an ego.
1:24:28
[SPEAKER_01]: We know Spike can't say that.
1:24:30
[SPEAKER_01]: We know that he is a stable person in her and Buffy's life.
1:24:37
[SPEAKER_01]: We know Angel can't say that.
1:24:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he's good for her.
1:24:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes good is not exciting.
1:24:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes good is not entertaining.
1:24:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I just think that if we're looking at like, who would be good for Buffy?
1:24:53
[SPEAKER_01]: is a normal guy that can also fight alongside her and not have a big ego about like her being stronger better.
1:25:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
1:25:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, go far.
1:25:05
[SPEAKER_00]: He handles that pretty well.
1:25:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess it just he feels like a concept to me.
1:25:10
[SPEAKER_00]: He feels like the concept of a nice guy who's good at her as opposed to a person.
1:25:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know how Ania is good for Zander.
1:25:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he's she's made him better, called out his bullshit like because she's so blunt.
1:25:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that the two of them
1:25:26
[SPEAKER_00]: On your ran away at the end of season three, at the season three finale, because she didn't want to fight.
1:25:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Zander is giving her something to care about now.
1:25:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Like they are good for each other, and I think it's really endearing like how Zander matured, like you guys were talking about on a previous podcast to be like, it's not just about sex.
1:25:46
[SPEAKER_00]: This is about like connection.
1:25:48
[SPEAKER_00]: They're good for each other, but it doesn't feel like I'm watching the concert.
1:25:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm watching two characters I like and care about, be good for each other.
1:25:56
[SPEAKER_00]: We were talking about this episode, Willow and Oz, like how Oz was good for Willow and high school.
1:26:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Oz, to me, didn't feel like the concept of a person.
1:26:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't disagree with you that a guy like Riley at this point in time is good for Buffy.
1:26:09
[SPEAKER_00]: It just, he feels like the concept of a person and so the emotion around it, I just don't buy as much.
1:26:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you guys were talking about last podcast, how when Buffy went onto the angel show and Buffy again is written so whiny on the angel show.
1:26:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree with you guys completely.
1:26:24
[SPEAKER_00]: But when she throws it in his face, it felt to me more like, because I have seen that scene.
1:26:30
[SPEAKER_00]: It felt like, here's a guy that despite all their flaws, it to me felt like they're, I bought that they loved each other.
1:26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And it felt like a defense mechanism more than like, I found this guy I'm like head over heels for.
1:26:45
[SPEAKER_00]: If that makes sense.
1:26:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I just feel like you're like a concept.
1:26:48
[SPEAKER_02]: The defense, I think, for the of that buffy scene, not the defense of the scene itself, but of their relationship is that I, I feel like Buffy is saying, I'm in a healthy relationship.
1:26:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
1:26:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think.
1:26:59
[SPEAKER_02]: that's that's where I'm seeing the defensiveness and whether or not we want to say like she's madly enough I think it's more so like I'm with a good guy and like I'm actually it's healthy and to like especially knowing that that episode came after this episode like
1:27:17
[SPEAKER_01]: having the very end of it be like Buffy saying we need to talk and like I need to tell you about my like dating history now he said you can tell me anything and she said I know I can or like I think I can and then she says I know I'm so good that's different than her and Angel ever were right?
1:27:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that this is a healthier relationship.
1:27:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I've obviously brought him.
1:27:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I just feel like he's a concept.
1:27:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Who is he?
1:27:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we're Islandana and maybe this is not what you're thinking.
1:27:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.
1:27:51
[SPEAKER_02]: But like where Island is, I think it's a healthy relationship and a decent relationship.
1:27:56
[SPEAKER_02]: While I also think that Riley is like a pretty bland and boring as a character and not fully developed.
1:28:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, I think both of those things can be true.
1:28:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I can appreciate that Riley is a way better boyfriend than literally angel ever was.
1:28:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'll fight anyone on that because Angel freaking sucks.
1:28:11
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so sorry to say it.
1:28:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want them sex.
1:28:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You try to kill everyone in her life.
1:28:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not fighting you guys.
1:28:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not angel on Riley's thing.
1:28:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's like, it's like, it's like in red.
1:28:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Look, I don't think we can even even talk about that yet because they haven't been dating.
1:28:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
1:28:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I was born.
1:28:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yes.
1:28:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I
1:28:33
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not for me about when I brought up Spike fairness.
1:28:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I did bring up Spike.
1:28:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I was purely talking about chemistry for me.
1:28:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Chemistry between the actors, chemistry in the dialogue.
1:28:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, Buffy is a very quick, witty person.
1:28:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And to me, I just, I haven't felt like the way Riley is written, keeps up with that in any way where I find like a language chemistry between a mentor.
1:29:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that a good healthy relationship can sometimes be boring.
1:29:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Trust me, I get that.
1:29:07
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do feel like when it's too fully fleshed out people, even if they're newly introduced, look at Tara and Willow, like look at that, like look at the chemistry and the specificity with Tara's quirks and her insecurities and what we see Willow might bring out with her.
1:29:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And that because it's too full people creates chemistry.
1:29:28
[SPEAKER_00]: to me and to me and again, I take on your criticism that of like type and like Riley being the nice Midwestern guy, I just don't get
1:29:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I other than a concept, I'm just not understanding who Riley's personality is.
1:29:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I liked Riley when we first met him to be clear.
1:29:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I liked when he was nervous.
1:29:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I found it very endearing the way he was kind to Willow and then got an ally in Willow to go up to Buffy to be like, hey, cheese plate.
1:29:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I the beginning was a very exciting.
1:30:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I love a T.A.
1:30:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I think T.A.
1:30:02
[SPEAKER_00]: is such a hot job.
1:30:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I love a TA who is nervous to talk and kind to the friend.
1:30:10
[SPEAKER_00]: That seed I liked at this point, it's so heavy handed and I've lost the plot with who he is.
1:30:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So say like the Midwestern TA.
1:30:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Say like the professor.
1:30:22
[SPEAKER_01]: doesn't leave the show doesn't get killed off.
1:30:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Then his art becomes do I go go again somebody that I see is my mother a mother figure or do I go to Buffy because like
1:30:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, with that be more interesting, is it like the fault of the show having to do a re direct because I think that him going after a mother figure is or going against a mother figure, somebody that probably
1:30:55
[SPEAKER_01]: shaped him and molded him into who he is is probably more interesting to him.
1:30:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember, she is.
1:31:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
1:31:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
1:31:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And, yes, condition.
1:31:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a hand drug time.
1:31:04
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot more interesting than the military or initiative.
1:31:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think that that was the original plan, right?
1:31:11
[SPEAKER_01]: That had to be, however, meeting, get that.
1:31:14
[SPEAKER_01]: That is like a big chunk of storyline.
1:31:17
[SPEAKER_01]: That.
1:31:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:31:18
[SPEAKER_01]: No, you didn't really get to see.
1:31:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And like he
1:31:20
[SPEAKER_01]: We see him like grapple with that in that one episode where he first meets Adam, but we haven't been able to explore that.
1:31:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Once again, I feel like it's the show that took out a big part of his story art.
1:31:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because it's like to go again, somebody that
1:31:37
[SPEAKER_01]: is your mentor is your leader is like your mother, like your creator somebody to his conditions you.
1:31:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I think like another thing that we're not like giving him a log credit for is like he is unlearning behaviors and beliefs and that is
1:31:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really hard.
1:31:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really hard to unlearn.
1:32:01
[SPEAKER_01]: There's certain things in my life that I know for a fact that I was taught to believe is one hundred percent correct.
1:32:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And as an adult, I've had to unlearn and realize that the things that I've been told is actually not the accurate thing in this world.
1:32:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I have been taught things that
1:32:20
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, was a little biased and I think that it's something that you have to do as an adult who unlearn those things and and and reassess your your life and I think that that's something the issue Hannah and I think I agree with you like I do think that he is
1:32:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And under developed character and we're treating him like a fully developed care.
1:32:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I think this is is the issue and I think it's the probably the redirects fault and I think it's probably.
1:32:54
[SPEAKER_01]: the writings fall a little bit, like we're talking about.
1:32:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they haven't given enough of a personality as the other people I nailed it though.
1:33:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that if Professor Walsh was still on the show and he had a crisis, right?
1:33:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Where he finds out about Adam, but then because she's been doing operand and classic conditioning, the thing we were introduced to, she conditions him to come back, right?
1:33:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he has to
1:33:18
[SPEAKER_00]: have to recognize that and choose individualism, right?
1:33:22
[SPEAKER_00]: But right now, because Professor Walsh has gone, it's like he has this crisis of faith.
1:33:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we don't see why he sort of in such lockstep falls back with the army guys.
1:33:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So then this next crisis feels just a little bit, he's already underbaked.
1:33:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And so his dynamic with Professor Walsh, the thing that was completely set up, he was literally her TA.
1:33:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:33:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we lose that.
1:33:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we sort of lose we're lost his motive.
1:33:53
[SPEAKER_01]: We're losing the conversation that professor Walsh says to Riley to be like, you've built your whole life for this.
1:34:00
[SPEAKER_01]: We've been working on something together.
1:34:02
[SPEAKER_01]: We were like building a world to make the world a better place against demons against evil.
1:34:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we are building something together.
1:34:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Like why would you give up our mission this late in the game when we're so close to
1:34:17
[SPEAKER_00]: But she's not dead, then Adam hasn't killed the like architect.
1:34:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It's completely different.
1:34:24
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like you're right.
1:34:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I can see I can I feel like this debate turned into us holding hands because I do actually understand what you're saying in terms of I think that if Professor Wolch was still there as the counterpoint to Buffy, it would make a lot more sense.
1:34:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So he stands currently.
1:34:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So then I think like that leads us to like Adam and like what Adam is doing because that's like the last piece of this puzzle of like what is that I'm doing is the thing like he's recruiting spike like what is he doing he's recruiting spike.
1:34:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I have no idea why like what he has this like headset thingy.
1:35:01
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like looking at maps of the source.
1:35:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what will I was doing.
1:35:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So like okay, so I was the hacker now.
1:35:09
[SPEAKER_01]: On the hacker, I think he's following what on his name.
1:35:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And she makes a slap my hand now in celebration.
1:35:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like her freaking high five.
1:35:19
[SPEAKER_01]: My slap my hand now and celebration.
1:35:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And then like she gets the high five and she's like, Oh, yeah, it's too much for her.
1:35:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so much.
1:35:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think what is happening is that Adam.
1:35:33
[SPEAKER_01]: is building this army and he knows that the slayer in the Scoobies are going to try to take him down.
1:35:40
[SPEAKER_01]: So what Adam does is he needs to study how the Scoobies move.
1:35:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So he hires spike to
1:35:49
[SPEAKER_01]: get the Scoobies into some sort of positioning or situation to learn from them how they operate so that he can create a counter attack against them.
1:36:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like when you're a football coach, you watch the other team, those I enemy.
1:36:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you watch the other teams exactly how they play.
1:36:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So then you learn and go against their moves.
1:36:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, or you just cheat like that.
1:36:18
[SPEAKER_02]: A whole on the Patriots who just read lips.
1:36:22
[SPEAKER_02]: The thing is is, okay, I agree.
1:36:26
[SPEAKER_02]: But I also think that spike is buffies biggest nemesis that is still alive.
1:36:34
[SPEAKER_02]: So like why not try to go out there.
1:36:36
[SPEAKER_02]: So we'll do it.
1:36:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, local.
1:36:40
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like attainable.
1:36:40
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think getting spike in terms of infiltration, right?
1:36:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's maybe what Adam is trying to do.
1:36:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And we see spike be like, hey, friends.
1:37:04
[SPEAKER_02]: want to know how to get into the initiative.
1:37:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll tell you for a little bit of cash and also because I fucking hate those guys.
1:37:10
[SPEAKER_02]: So I might as well help you out, right?
1:37:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he is making this like first step this little tiny bit of an olive branch and maybe he's hoping that spike will then get
1:37:20
[SPEAKER_02]: pulled into the group and then Adam can get information.
1:37:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Who the hell knows?
1:37:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't really care what Adam is up to is the point.
1:37:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just happy that Spike is relevant again.
1:37:30
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I'm happy about.
1:37:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I am happy that Spike is hanging around the Scoobies being like, I fucking hate you guys.
1:37:37
[SPEAKER_02]: You guys suck.
1:37:39
[SPEAKER_02]: But also, give me that money, honey.
1:37:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm here for that.
1:37:42
[SPEAKER_02]: It's fun.
1:37:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Awesome.
1:37:46
[SPEAKER_01]: But also, like, if he is actively sabotaging the Scoobies, how are we going to get like a redemption story for him, for him to be back implemented.
1:37:56
[SPEAKER_02]: But then the Scoobies easily, he changes his mind and he takes out Adam or he helps take out Adam and suddenly he's not such a bad guy anymore.
1:38:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess.
1:38:05
[SPEAKER_00]: It's funny because you guys were spot on when Spike was brought back.
1:38:09
[SPEAKER_00]: You said, I think Sarah, you said, like, I think he's replacing Cordelia basically, which was the original intention of Spike and then what happened was on you was so brilliant.
1:38:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we already have Cordelia.
1:38:23
[SPEAKER_00]: that whole field not her obviously like she we missed cordelia but onia is a part of the scoobies because I'm can we go I mean that's the cordelia beat that's the role and so I think the show is sort of figuring out where to spike go from here you know where do we go from here what do we
1:38:42
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we do?
1:38:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Because he has the chip in his head.
1:38:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So we know he can't hurt the scubies and humans.
1:38:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
1:38:47
[SPEAKER_02]: That's part of the deal as well.
1:38:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Because Adam's going to remove the chip.
1:38:50
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the point.
1:38:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he can.
1:38:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:38:52
[SPEAKER_02]: So that is the other thing that he's he's in for.
1:38:55
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm I don't care.
1:38:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't give a single fuck.
1:38:58
[SPEAKER_02]: about Adam and what he's up to.
1:39:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I do really like Spike as a villain, as this like antagonist towards the Scooby-Squad, as this also like, that's our, like, rascal sort of a vibe.
1:39:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm interested to see where it's going to go because they can't have him have the chip in his head forever.
1:39:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And well, I guess it could.
1:39:19
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, what the hell's gonna happen once it's out?
1:39:21
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, what, what?
1:39:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
1:39:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I just, I'm just saying he can't have the trip in his head forever, Sarah, because then how are him and Buffy gonna have like weird vampire sex where they kiss sucks her blood?
1:39:31
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, oh my God.
1:39:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know.
1:39:33
[SPEAKER_02]: It's got to happen.
1:39:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm just, I'm trying to prep you because I feel very confidently, but I don't know if we're going to see the weird couple of things I'm just saying, I think it's going to happen.
1:39:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so bum because there's like a one hundred percent chance that Riley has to die by the end of the season.
1:39:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm just going to have to like move back to Iowa wherever the hell he's done.
1:39:53
[SPEAKER_01]: That's case scenario like on.
1:39:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's possible.
1:39:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to have a mental breakdown.
1:39:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be and then I'm going to have to be like,
1:40:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And two and a half seasons, people who are those freaking spike fans are going to be dancing on privacy brave.
1:40:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the spuffy dance.
1:40:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to be miserable.
1:40:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:40:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think it's fun to watch the funniest character in Spike.
1:40:21
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the funniest characters interact with one of the most robotic because he's literally like part robot in Adam.
1:40:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the scout honor I was a boy scout is a funny line.
1:40:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But other than that, it is interesting.
1:40:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I always think it's fun to watch.
1:40:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Spike is so quick and witty and like whatever.
1:40:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And Adam is just very
1:40:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if you hand it.
1:40:46
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also boring.
1:40:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's also boring is the other thing.
1:40:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm trying to learn the world.
1:40:54
[SPEAKER_00]: He's just trying to figure himself out.
1:40:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:40:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this season is so much better than I remember it.
1:41:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And you guys have really helped me.
1:41:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:41:03
[SPEAKER_00]: For a real love of this season.
1:41:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's interesting.
1:41:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I remember I would got told in film school to write high school shows, not college shows, because high schools are universal experiencing college isn't interesting.
1:41:16
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it is fun to get to see them in college.
1:41:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And
1:41:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, Zander is many jobs and there's just there's so many good episodes like jiles post struggles.
1:41:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I think has been really fun.
1:41:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I love Tara and Willow like I genuinely love her discovering a love for someone and that being the conversation before anything else.
1:41:44
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think that this
1:41:46
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and part of it is, while she's departure and what that does, I'm realizing not just to the season, but to Riley for me.
1:41:54
[SPEAKER_00]: That's, I think, where people struggle with season four.
1:41:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's because they don't appreciate fun.
1:42:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think that these.
1:42:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You guys said it so many times.
1:42:05
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't say.
1:42:07
[SPEAKER_00]: You're all are just not fun if you don't.
1:42:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I also like, yeah, I mean, maybe part of it's true.
1:42:13
[SPEAKER_00]: My favorite season is season six and it's moody as fuck.
1:42:16
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just, yeah, it's just all for, it's a very moody season.
1:42:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's like, um,
1:42:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I think just like you said it's a vibe season.
1:42:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:42:28
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people don't like a vibe thing.
1:42:32
[SPEAKER_01]: They want like a
1:42:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, you know, I'll see.
1:42:36
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to be storyline.
1:42:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I think there's a lot of changes that come with this season.
1:42:42
[SPEAKER_02]: That sometimes people don't like change right like courties on the show anymore.
1:42:46
[SPEAKER_02]: We're no longer in high school.
1:42:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Oz leaves the show shortly thereafter.
1:42:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Angel is gone.
1:42:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's a lot of changes that happen in the season.
1:42:52
[SPEAKER_02]: That's like it's an adjustment.
1:42:54
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's just, there are hearts for open to love this season.
1:42:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we just accepted it with all its weird flaws.
1:43:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've just leaned into the vibes of it.
1:43:04
[SPEAKER_02]: All the bumps.
1:43:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, look, I loved this, I've loved so many of the episodes you've covered this season.
1:43:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And the season finale is a really interesting and fun finale.
1:43:15
[SPEAKER_00]: It's gonna be a, it's gonna be a very plot heavy road moving forward though.
1:43:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I will, I don't think that's a spoiler to say.
1:43:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Like every buffy season,
1:43:24
[SPEAKER_00]: It kind of wraps, you know, the big bad becomes the focus and the big bad is Adam and the initiative.
1:43:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah.
1:43:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, uh, okay.
1:43:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's, let's get into some of the feedback we have.
1:43:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Speaking of vibes, we did get an email from Danny, writing in about where the wild things are, which I just want to read this one because usually Danny says they comment on YouTube, but they felt they need to write an email.
1:43:50
[SPEAKER_02]: So we appreciate you, Danny.
1:43:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Um,
1:43:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's see, I felt the need to defend this episode since I disagree with all the people who gave it the fame of being one of the worst.
1:43:59
[SPEAKER_02]: First of all, one of the main storylines comes with on you not understanding our human relationships work and her hilarious fear of having a crisis just because the ender didn't want to have sex the previous night.
1:44:09
[SPEAKER_02]: That alone gave us a lot of screen time with our favorite ex-demon.
1:44:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Second, the dynamic between her and spike was actually really good and funny, and the fact that they're bonding over their missing powers to do evil things is just very amusing.
1:44:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that discovering what the old lady caused so much damage because of their religious beliefs is messed up, but I didn't hate it.
1:44:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Finally, Rupert frickin' Giles' voice.
1:44:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Come on, that scene alone makes up for all the terrible episodes on Buffy, including the hyena one.
1:44:38
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a top-notch daddy Giles.
1:44:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, thanks for your podcasts.
1:44:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it, and I watch you on YouTube, religiously, every week.
1:44:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Greetings from Cancun, Mexico.
1:44:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, thank you so much.
1:44:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Danny, can I, like, good vacation at your house?
1:44:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Sarah loves Mexico.
1:44:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this episode.
1:44:58
[SPEAKER_00]: You both love where the wild things are in Cancun.
1:45:00
[SPEAKER_00]: There you go.
1:45:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Beautiful.
1:45:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I listen.
1:45:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I think Danny, you're going to, if you, if you wrote, you wrote this email in before I think the podcast was released, you're in a little of that podcast.
1:45:11
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, love their takes.
1:45:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because we love we love this.
1:45:13
[SPEAKER_02]: We love the episode.
1:45:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, we also have an email from joy.
1:45:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, so no one rising.
1:45:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, how you break my heart.
1:45:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Oz is back for one episode, Riley judging Willow for dating a world off is not cool, but he redeems himself later.
1:45:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Oz has seemingly conquered his wolf side, not needing to turn during the full moon, and he wants Willow back.
1:45:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I love Tara.
1:45:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I really do, but I also really love Oz, and them together in these scenes just makes my heart happy.
1:45:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Ellison Hannigan is doing a really good job with her body language.
1:45:43
[SPEAKER_02]: She's happy out this is there, but she's not one hundred percent comfortable.
1:45:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Like she's trying to put on her sweater, her favorite sweater, but it doesn't fit anymore.
1:45:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, what a great analogy.
1:45:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And Oz can tell something is different, but he can't quite put his finger on it.
1:45:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I love the conversation Buffy and Willow have with Buffy taking everything and stride.
1:46:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I also love that it shows Willow is conflicted between her new feelings for Tara and her feelings for Oz that are coming back.
1:46:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Spike and Adam teaning up can only end in disaster, LOL.
1:46:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Oz was doing so well being all Zen, but realizing Willow has feelings for Tara, ruins his control, and he turns in the daytime.
1:46:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I do love that it's not because Tara is a woman, but just that she might be in love with someone else.
1:46:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Riley doing the right thing by Oz shows growth, and I'm proud of him, and I love how proud of herself, Anga, is returning off the power.
1:46:32
[SPEAKER_02]: But he's going to tell Riley about her past with Angel that final scene with Oz and Willow just kills me.
1:46:36
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so soft and mature and sad and beautiful.
1:46:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And when Willow hurts, I hurt.
1:46:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, I love Tara and I love the representation and how beautiful they are.
1:46:45
[SPEAKER_02]: But I will die on the hill that Oz and Willow would have been amazing couple as well as they had something special.
1:46:52
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what Joy has to say.
1:46:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Joy has a lot of good thoughts.
1:46:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:46:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the onion, the onion scene still absolutely cracks me up.
1:47:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we also, people who listen to our, uh, Felicity content.
1:47:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, recognize this voice.
1:47:09
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a voicemail from someone who has never sent in Buffy feedback before, uh, his name is DBK, and he has very strong feelings on Felicity.
1:47:17
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm very interested to hear about all his thoughts on Buffy.
1:47:20
[SPEAKER_02]: I have no idea if he's seen the show previously or he's watching it for the first time, but we're going to hear what he has to say.
1:47:26
[SPEAKER_06]: What up, the ladies.
1:47:29
[SPEAKER_06]: This is where I parked my car.
1:47:32
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so I'm all caught up on buff here.
1:47:35
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry.
1:47:35
[SPEAKER_06]: I got like nine minutes.
1:47:36
[SPEAKER_06]: That's not where the wild things are.
1:47:38
[SPEAKER_06]: I got some questions.
1:47:40
[SPEAKER_06]: So I need to know how old is like angels body?
1:47:48
[SPEAKER_06]: Cause like I don't know what has an issue with like a two hundred year old dating like a sixteen year old.
1:47:54
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, sure.
1:47:55
[SPEAKER_06]: But like how old is angels body?
1:47:57
[SPEAKER_06]: Like he's like a
1:48:00
[SPEAKER_06]: Like, like, he's in, like, twenties, right?
1:48:02
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
1:48:02
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
1:48:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:48:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:48:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know, yeah, he early, though, I gosh, I, I'm going to be, I hope this is not going to devalue me as a buffy fan, but I believe he was like just a kind of a drunken loser at one point.
1:48:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So would you, yeah, he was probably like, nineteen, twenty, somewhere in there.
1:48:37
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I thought I thought he was like, twenty one-ish, but obviously you could drink whenever back then.
1:48:43
[SPEAKER_02]: So he's from a real long time ago.
1:48:46
[SPEAKER_06]: Oh, we don't make fun of Willows, dumb haircut this season.
1:48:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Willows haircut.
1:48:53
[SPEAKER_02]: No, we did.
1:48:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you did.
1:48:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you never like short hair.
1:48:56
[SPEAKER_06]: Two, two other things.
1:48:59
[SPEAKER_06]: Like I know we like on you, but on you as a demon.
1:49:01
[SPEAKER_06]: And she's like a vengeance demon.
1:49:03
[SPEAKER_06]: So why doesn't Buffy kill her?
1:49:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Because she's not anymore.
1:49:06
[SPEAKER_06]: It's like
1:49:08
[SPEAKER_06]: She doesn't have a soul, right?
1:49:09
[SPEAKER_06]: So like, Buffy should take her out.
1:49:11
[SPEAKER_06]: I don't know.
1:49:12
[SPEAKER_06]: I just sometimes I like don't get like Buffy's like a lot.
1:49:17
[SPEAKER_06]: Like because she kills all vampires because they don't have souls.
1:49:22
[SPEAKER_06]: But she let Spike live all the time.
1:49:23
[SPEAKER_06]: I know a lot about it.
1:49:25
[SPEAKER_06]: But sometimes it's like weird.
1:49:28
[SPEAKER_06]: And then I know we like to make fun of a boss poster, but like we don't make fun of a dumbass poster, Willow and Buffy have on their door of like
1:49:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I meant to bring this up today.
1:49:38
[SPEAKER_06]: Here's all a different kind of chocolate.
1:49:40
[SPEAKER_06]: Is this a real poster?
1:49:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh.
1:49:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I meant to bring up the chocolate poster because the first time I saw it, I thought it was for the movie, Shokawa.
1:49:50
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was very confused, but it is a super poster.
1:49:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's just say the Irishman and college have dumb posters.
1:49:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
1:49:58
[SPEAKER_00]: But they make fun of it in the premiere, Buffy.
1:50:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I think my interpretation is that when Ania became a human,
1:50:05
[SPEAKER_00]: that she now has a soul.
1:50:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I believe is my inspiration.
1:50:08
[SPEAKER_02]: She talks about it with spike in where the wild things are in terms of like she doesn't have powers anymore.
1:50:14
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't think she's a demon.
1:50:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I think she got made a human and to answer your quite like it will be explored.
1:50:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Buffy's choices of who she kills versus doesn't kill.
1:50:27
[SPEAKER_00]: It does get explored down the line, including, you know,
1:50:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Onya, Angel, Spike, everyone who she's not killing, despite them not being human, gets discussed and what the moral lines are there.
1:50:44
[SPEAKER_00]: But, exciting to know.
1:50:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I think TBK might be watching Buffy for the first time.
1:50:49
[SPEAKER_02]: BBK, let us know.
1:50:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to know.
1:50:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to know.
1:50:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So funny, the chocolate poster.
1:50:54
[SPEAKER_02]: It did correct me, but I saw it this episode and I was like, the hell.
1:50:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Sarah, do you want to know what season four episode twenty eight is titled?
1:51:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
1:51:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, it is what's the Yoko factor?
1:51:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so.
1:51:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no, so there's extra the odd man out.
1:51:16
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's basically Yoko.
1:51:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, it's like famous for like
1:51:20
[SPEAKER_01]: quote, quote at the ramping up the Beatles.
1:51:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's either going to be either Tara or Ania or Riley is like going to get all of these and some sort of
1:51:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Why money is on either Tara or Riley, because I feel like Ania is kind of like an honorary scooby at this point.
1:51:40
[SPEAKER_01]: She's also literally the most likely that to complain, that that Zander's spending too much time on things that's not sure sure, but also she is a hacker now and she gave Giles a high five.
1:51:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And we'll be discussing that episode with David, he'll be coming back to the podcast.
1:52:00
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's very exciting.
1:52:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, we are three episodes away from the end of that will be the end of season four.
1:52:07
[SPEAKER_02]: So I can't believe it.
1:52:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm loving this season.
1:52:10
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't wait to see how it wraps up.
1:52:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Even if it is unsatisfactory, you can't take away my men's of season four and how much I've enjoyed this ride.
1:52:18
[SPEAKER_02]: So good times.
1:52:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Good.
1:52:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I love doing a great job podcasting in.
1:52:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It has made me appreciate and like the season even more.
1:52:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:52:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I hope that a lot of people feel that way, especially if you weren't really a fan of season four.
1:52:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:52:34
[SPEAKER_02]: So that will be next week.
1:52:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, in the meantime, we're also podcasting about Felicity, obviously.
1:52:41
[SPEAKER_02]: We are trekking on through.
1:52:43
[SPEAKER_02]: We are trekking on through.
1:52:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're almost almost season for Felicity.
1:52:46
[SPEAKER_02]: We're getting there, people.
1:52:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It's okay.
1:52:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Hannah, anything you want to plug?
1:52:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I know you're recently talking about Love Island on a different podcast.
1:52:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I went on the Rack Girls podcast to talk about love island and personal relationships.
1:52:59
[SPEAKER_00]: You can find me on Instagram at Hannah Lil Nesson.
1:53:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hope I haven't torn apart the fabric of anyone's love for, I don't know, Riley or the initiative.
1:53:11
[SPEAKER_00]: If those are things who like, I said I'd come in hot because Sarah said she was going to come in really hot.
1:53:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know anything bad about Oz?
1:53:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even remember.
1:53:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Not especially, but we already know you're hate for him, so it's fine.
1:53:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't ever, you guys, still don't, like, remember why hate him, but I think if you can't remember it, then I'll be actually.
1:53:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I certainly do.
1:53:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway.
1:53:35
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, well, we'll be back next week to talk about season four episode, one of Buffy and until then everyone here and if the last.