Latest / Serious Lady Business / Detroit Series: We Deserve More— Nikki Sapiro Vinckier and the Modern Fight for Reproductive Justice, From Detroit and Beyond
Transcript
- Leslie Youngblood (00:01) Welcome to Serious Lady Business. I'm Leslie Youngblood, your host, feminist, and founder of Youngblood MMC, a marketing, media, and content agency. And I am so thrilled with our guest today. We have Nikki Sopiro-Vincere with us. She is a Michigan-based reproductive healthcare activist, content creator, and OB-GYN physician assistant who turned her frontline experience into full throttle advocacy. She's the founder of Take Back Trust, a digital platform helping people navigate reproductive healthcare with confidence, clarity, and zero shame. That blends clinical expertise with bold storytelling. She's also the author of the upcoming book, We Deserve More, a bold practical guide to navigating a healthcare system that much too often ignores, dismisses, or harms those it's meant to serve. Part validation, part toolkit. The book hands patients the language, strategies, and self-trust they've always deserved. Nikki's work sits at the intersection of medicine, justice, and digital organizing. Because care shouldn't come with caveats and rights shouldn't depend on your zip code. She is also a personal friend of mine and I look up to her so much and I am just so excited to have a conversation with you today, Nikki. Welcome to Serious Lady Business. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (01:21) Thank you for having me. What a nice introduction. Leslie Youngblood (01:24) What an incredible human you are to have that introduction. I always tell you I am so in awe of you and everything that you are doing and have done. And what I think is so profound about your journey is that your advocacy didn't come from theory. It came from the exam room. So can you start by sharing what did you see and experience on the front lines that made it impossible not to speak up, Nikki? Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (01:52) Yeah, you know, was kind of an accident is what ended up happening. And I never thought that I would go into medicine to start doing advocacy work. And I graduated from PA school in 2016, and I started doing reproductive health care. And then reproductive health care in 2016 was not. political like it is now. And while I was working as an OBGYN PA, you know, we were seeing the writing on the wall for Roe versus Wade to fall. And then, you know, in Michigan, we were the first citizen led ballot initiative, which was really exciting and some really great advocacy work that happened to put that into motion. And so all of a sudden it kind of, there was no other options, simply put. Leslie Youngblood (02:19) Mm. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (02:35) reproductive health care became political. And if I cared about my patients and if I cared about reproductive health care, then ipso facto, I became an advocate. ⁓ And so it was kind of this accidental trajectory into the movement. And it's interesting because sometimes I still feel this little bit of imposter syndrome with people that are in the movement that have been doing it for decades. And I'm like, no, I've been doing this for decades. Also, it's just been from the medical side of things. Leslie Youngblood (02:45) Thank Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (03:05) and we're so siloed all the time, right? You have advocates and medical people. And that was what really made me want to use my voice, is it felt like there was a pretty big absence of clinicians as advocates. And so that was really where I was like, I think this voice is necessary. We need more clinical advocates. Leslie Youngblood (03:05) Right. Yeah. And you mentioned Roe v. Wade. Didn't we just didn't you just mentioned the other day it was a 53 year anniversary or it would have been the 53 year anniversary of Roe v. Wade? Yeah, yeah, yeah. huh. Uh huh. And so I think that is there's a couple of things that I would like to touch on there. One is that you recognize this gap in between, you know, the advocacy and the medical space that we need more clinicians to really step up. But that a lot of times Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (03:35) Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (03:54) many people see that gap and don't step up. Were you afraid? you like what what was going through your mind and what really, you know, finally propelled you to be like, well, no, I have this voice. I have this knowledge. I have this passion. This is happening. Everybody else be damned. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (04:10) you ⁓ You know, it was kind of just this like slow motion roll towards that was I had known that I wanted to do advocacy work more consistently and advocacy work is hard and tiring and never ending and the hours are long, the pay is low and it can be really. difficult at times as compared to being in clinic where you've got set hours, you go home, you see your patients, you leave your patients in the clinic. It's a little different. ⁓ And then Leslie, as you know this part of the story, but the listeners do not, I got fired. So I was told that I was no longer a professional fit. Leslie Youngblood (04:46) it. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (04:59) for the practice that I was working in. And I was told that I needed to take the pride pin off of my white coat that I had worn for 10 years. And I was told that I was not allowed to discuss voting with my patients despite it being recommended by the American Medical Association and American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology as part of our civic health. It didn't sit well with me. And so all of a sudden it was like, well, I've got no choice. Full throttle. Here we go. And so I just kind of created a lane to do this full time. And it's it's been a journey. It's been a journey. Leslie Youngblood (05:26) Thank Mm-hmm. Yeah, and you took that like a horrible experience, right? Where you were, you know, terminated from your job. I kind of like, it's so awesome because you're like, I'll show you. you're going to fire me. You're going to give me all this free time. You think I'm too much here? I'll show you too much. You don't know what you just, the gasoline, you just pour it on the fire people. Like, ha ha ha. ⁓ Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (05:52) you Yeah. Yeah, and it is, you know, I think once I was gone from that practice, I had more of that kind of 2000 foot view down on the experience I had in clinic. And all of a sudden these feelings where I was like, this didn't sit right, or I didn't like this. Like it became a lot clearer that I was probably never the right fit for that practice, right? And that was my first job out of PA school. And I grew up there as a clinician. I was there for nine years, you know, and what I didn't know early on when I got hired there and what they didn't know about me, we grew and we changed. And I think it's normal as people in a workforce to grow and change out of a fit of a company. And it was... The hindsight is 20-20, probably for them and for me. I'm sure they're looking at me also being like, glad we let her go when we did. And I'm looking at them being like, yeah, if I wasn't fired then I would have been fired 15 times since then. Leslie Youngblood (06:59) At least, at least. Well, and I think that is a testament where we have a feeling in our gut and we don't follow it or right or like you knew deep down that that probably wasn't the right place and and then it just became so just right and it became more and more clear. And so looking back, you said, you we all you mentioned 2020 in hindsight and we all go through that. But looking back, Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (07:00) At least! Leslie Youngblood (07:26) When did you start noticing gaps between what patients need and what the healthcare system actually delivers, Nikki? Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (07:35) would say the first time I noticed it was when I would have larger patients who would come in and we had the same standard size gowns. And our practice had been running for 38 years and I was the first clinician to ever ask them to stock larger size gowns. ⁓ And I was like... I can no longer ask my patients to come in and like these stupid paper gowns, everyone hates them anyway. They're terrible. But like if they don't fit your body and you're like sitting there like trying to cover up your body and this stupid gown that only half fits you, it's so demoralizing. And I was the only clinician to ever ask that. And I was the only clinician that pushed for intake forms to be changed and updated and more reflective of. Leslie Youngblood (08:09) Mmm. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (08:18) you know, a respect for differences in experiences and identity. And so it was those moments where I felt like I was constantly asking for things that felt like baseline to me. Leslie Youngblood (08:31) Right. Wow. I... was not expecting that answer. And I think because you you think, it was when I was treating them and it was this or that, but it is something that human and that basic that often goes so under looked or overlooked by everybody. And when you call it to attention, you think this is just basic. How come this this is crazy? And it's that and like you said, it's something so simple. It gets so demoralizing. Nobody likes those guns in general, let alone somebody where Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (08:49) Yeah. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (09:03) those shitty gowns don't fit you properly and it could be something that's so easily fixed. Holy smokes. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (09:09) Yeah, and I think about it often as like, you know, it was kind of like a steak or a wedge, right? Like the point itself of ordering larger gowns is not that significant. That's a really easy thing. But when you like think about what that steak or what that kind of like, what those edges look like is what that meant is we are so far apart in our moral grounds and compass and the things that matter to me and the things I notice for my patients and the experiences that I care about. The fact that I'm the only one thinking about this, we're really different, right? Despite the fact that ordering larger gowns is not that big of a thing, that in and of itself shows the discrepancy of like, right. Like we don't, we're not on the same wavelength here. Leslie Youngblood (09:42) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah, just indicative of a much larger problem, slash issue, slash incompatibility, most likely. know, trust is really central to the network that you've built. Why is it so fragile in reproductive health care and who has historically been denied it the most, Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (10:04) Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ baby, I hate telling this story and I love telling this story. So the grandfather of gynecology, Dr. Sims, Dr. Sims perfected his gynecological surgery on enslaved black women without anesthesia. So there were up to 30 black women who he practiced surgeries on without anesthesia. Leslie Youngblood (10:23) you Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (10:46) but the main three that are commonly recognized are Anarka, Betsy, and Lucy. So when we look back on the history of gynecology that is often not discussed and often not recognized, we have always seen that Black women have had the worst of reproductive health care. And then, Right now, we see that Black women are three to four times more likely to die in childbirth or in pregnancy than white women, regardless of income or education. So when we look at Black maternal mortality, that's like an atrocious thing right now, but it's a very historical presentation of reproductive health care. Leslie Youngblood (11:09) Mmm. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (11:33) So when we look at it from the lens of history of gynecology in general, we learn a lot about how we've fallen short over time. And then we kind of look at the absence of recognizing female pain, right? The idea of come on in, it's just gonna feel a little cramp or your IUD is just gonna feel a little pinch, right? And it's excruciating. And I think that... Leslie Youngblood (11:33) Mmm. right. Rangoon. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (12:00) That's one of the interesting things that social media has done for gynecology is it's really brought to light some of that pain that we do feel during these, you know, procedures and experiences and how our clinicians haven't been listening to us, haven't been recognizing it, and how that ends up kind of making us as patients feel misunderstood, gaslit, not supported, all of these things. So you've got kind of the history of gynecology which is really bad. And then you have present gynecology, which also continues to not recognize female pain. And overall, this arch is pretty disappointing for everyone. And so when we look at trust, there's a real reason why women, specifically black women, but all women, have a hard time with gynecology. Leslie Youngblood (12:54) Yeah, I mean, I don't think it could be much plainer. mean, right? Like, you know, it makes perfect sense when you think about that. And it's so I'm sure you've experienced it and I've experienced it. And like you said, like you are somebody in the medical field when know how the system works. I'm a privileged white woman and I know how it works. I've been dismissed. And it's like, can you imagine how much that compounds for others that aren't as privileged as we are. And so... It's just, you know, to know that it start how it started and how these advances were made and how it has progressed. know even I believe it was just Nikki, you probably know the specific date just within the last five years that they even started testing period products with actual blood. They were using like a blue goo to test absorbancy of period products. And I that is absolutely insane. How's that even that cannot be right. You know, we're in the 2000s. This is modern times. No way. And it was true. it's for all these. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (13:46) you Leslie Youngblood (13:55) years and where we are women's bodies and women's pain is still undermined and dismissed and it just feels like why it doesn't have to be that way and so you know how do we start to reclaim our voice when we're going through these situations whether it's an IUD pain whether it's just you know I've had headaches for the past you know a few weeks and I'm worried something's going on and tell us about your experience and what you would suggest there, Nikki. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (14:27) Yeah, so that's a lot of what I do write about in my book is first and foremost, kind of recognizing it yourself. And I think we spend a lot of time assuming that the clinician is going to know everything, but these visits are shorter and shorter. And what ends up happening is as patients come in, they forget all of the things that they've been telling themselves in the two weeks prior leading up to the appointment. So they get to the exam table and their mind goes blank. They tell them a couple of things, and then the clinician gets five minutes to tell you what's wrong. And so I often talk about doing your homework before your visit, taking time to really sit down and map out. What are the things that are most concerning to me? What are my main issues? What are my main questions? What am I trying to get out of this visit? Do I want someone to listen to me? Do I want someone to solve this? Do I want diagnostic testing? Do I just want to have it written in my chart so that in another three months, if this is still happening, I can compare it to now, right? And there's so many people who go online and Google or they're on ChatGPT and they're trying to get a diagnosis from ChatGPT. what I tell people is instead of doing that, what would be better is to put your symptoms in there and say, what questions can I ask my clinician? How can I ask for better testing for diagnosis? So instead of asking chat GPT to diagnose you, have chat GPT help you to improve your experience in clinic. So then that way you're still relying on a medical professional with experience. We see that chat GPT is wrong on diagnosis 40 to 50 % of the time, right? Like, yeah, I mean, they're just like pulling symptoms, of course, right? So like, we can't look to that for symptom management and diagnosis, but we have to look to that and look to online and look to social media more for like... Leslie Youngblood (16:06) Whoa! I mean sure, yeah. Right, right, of course. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (16:22) story building and shaping to augment and support going into the clinic, not to replace it. Leslie Youngblood (16:29) Yeah, and that's why I'm so excited for your book. One of the many reasons I'm so excited for your book. It's not just a memoir, it's a toolkit. It's called We Deserve More. It's coming out this spring, right Nikki? It's coming out in the spring. Yay! Yes. Tell us how the work that you were doing made you decide patients needed this tangible piece they could carry with them into appointments. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (16:41) Whoop whoop! Yup, me! Yeah, ⁓ it all started... ⁓ Again, also very accidentally and when we lost the election what happened is I had all these friends that were texting me Nikki What do I do about this Nikki? What do I do about this? I'm worried my ID is gonna expire next month. Can I replace it early? You know all these different thoughts and it was almost like I became a pocket clinician for all of my friends and this has been the case for years I'm probably one of the first to know of all of my friends anytime anyone is pregnant because they have questions or they have early spotting or they want reassurance or they're going in for testing or they shoot, is this test even positive, right? Like I just become this kind of like collector of stories and it's a really lucky position, number one, to be me who gets to be that person for my friends. But for my friends, I don't mean to toot my own horn, but it's really lucky for them that they have access to a medical professional and most don't, right? So we deserve. Leslie Youngblood (17:54) Heck yes. And not only that, Nikki, ⁓ a medical professional, to interrupt you, but a medical professional that they feel comfortable with, that they can share those things with that, and you have created this open dialogue and this open space for them. Because even if you have a doctor, sometimes that doctor, you don't vibe with them or you don't like them, you don't feel comfortable, you're embarrassed to have these conversations. continue, I'm sorry, but I just want to, again, say it's because you also create that open space for them. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (18:02) That's right. That's right. Yep. Yep. Thank you. But yeah, and so I think the book, I wanted the book to be that companion for everyone. I wanted everyone to have access to a clinician who's there to support them. I wanted everyone to have that kind of what you said, that like free second opinion or free support, right? That person that kind of like helps you to understand what's happening outside of the exam room. Leslie Youngblood (18:24) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's so special. What do you hope somebody feels after reading, deserve more, especially somebody who's been told directly or indirectly that their concerns don't matter? Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (19:00) to know that they can keep advocating for themselves, that they can keep pushing for an answer, that just because one clinician says that, it's likely not the right fit for you. And I think about this often. was scrolling social media and it was this video of a woman in a nail salon. And she said, I just listened to the woman next to me correct the nail color with the technician, like saying, I don't like the shape of my nails. I don't like the color. And the woman was like, she's going to be our next female president. And it really blew this kind of like, it blew my mind because I was like, ⁓ as women, we're not even telling our nail technicians if they're getting it wrong, if it's not up to what works for us, if it doesn't feel good. So if we're not even able to vocalize our own discomfort in a nail salon, how are we gonna be able to do this with our healthcare practitioners? We're not, right? Leslie Youngblood (19:40) Hmm. Mmm! No. That's crazy. And something that simple. think I even with my oldest, he got a haircut maybe like a couple of months ago and he didn't like it. And he was crying. I go, please tell, please tell her that you don't like it or you're not being mean. If you're trying to correct them and telling them what you want, that's what they're here for. They're here to help you. And that's in the most like basic sense of the term. And he's a little dude, but I wanted him to learn to speak up for himself and share. You're not being mean. You're being honest. You're being constructive. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (20:21) Yeah. That's right. Leslie Youngblood (20:29) help that person be more vocal next time or learn whatever. And he's a dude and it's so much easier for dudes. so for, like you said, as women, we can't even, get a wrong coffee at Starbucks and you're, oh, I don't wanna be a, you know, I don't wanna be a Karen and tell my coffee like bad. it's like, but you also shouldn't deserve less than you deserve, which is why we deserve more. And it's just these basic. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (20:45) Literally. Leslie Youngblood (20:55) constructs that we grow up with around us from these young ages that, you know, teach us. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (20:57) Yes. Yes. Leslie Youngblood (21:01) to not be more proactive about those things. And then it's so critical when it comes to your health, because it's the very foundation of who you are. as you get older, you become maybe a partner, a wife, a mother, a sister, a caretaker, a professional where you have a job that you love and you want to, know, and you're dedicated to. You don't have your health. You have nothing. Truly, could there be anything more true for that? But that if you can't ask questions or advocate for yourself, then you really don't have your health. as in a way that you really deserve to. And so I'm so excited for the book to come out and to be able to help women be more proactive and feel empowered and feel confident. Right. Like I think that's like what it truly at the end of the day is, is to feel confident that they can go in and and not to be undermined or gaslit by anybody in their life for a medical professional when it comes to their health, because that happens, too. It's not just the medical professionals. It's those in our lives that make us second guess how we're feeling, that pain, that the thinking and we have the answers. The answers are always like right in and it can be so difficult to trust. And so I think we deserve more and take Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (21:46) Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (22:15) back trust. These are just so, so important and needed now more than ever for women and for men because we all need to learn and do better, right? Like we just need to do better with each other. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (22:28) Yeah, and I love that you bring up for men, right? And I think I do a lot of work right now also on bringing men into the conversation about reproductive health care because for so long we have almost intentionally sidelined them. We have said no uterus, no opinion, and they have taken that to heart and they've just kind of put their hands up in the air and backed away and then as it's gotten more complicated, they don't know how to re-enter. Leslie Youngblood (22:42) Mm-hmm. Thank you. Yeah. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (22:57) And so I think that there's a very intentional process on bringing men into the conversation. And I spend a lot of time thinking about this, especially after we lost the 2024 election, because we still can't even get the majority of white women to vote for their best interests. So if that's the case, then how do we pull men in? Right. Because we really fundamentally need them if white women are going to continue to shit the bed. So that is a piece Leslie Youngblood (23:18) Hmm. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (23:27) to the puzzle that is so important to unlock is how do we get men on board to think about reproductive health care, not just for their wives, for their daughters, but for them, right? We know that men are involved in 50 % of infertility cases right now. Reproductive health care impacts men also. And we talk about it as if it's... Leslie Youngblood (23:28) Thank Okay. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (23:53) only for women. And when we open up that conversation, when we invite them in, we are going to get better outcomes because it impacts more of the population. And point blank, people don't care about women. They don't. But they care about men. So if we can get men to advocate for us, whether I like it or not, they're going to listen to them. Leslie Youngblood (24:18) Yeah, it's so, so true. So true. And I think it can be easy for. Not easy for me, and I know I'm one of the ones in the past like you don't have a uterus, you don't you don't know. You could have no idea. I don't want to hear it. But then as you grow and you learn, you realize obviously you can't do it alone. You can't just have, you have to have the collect working together. And I also have a great partner who tries and strives to learn and understand too. And that's changed my thinking on it as well. And it seems, but how could we not have that thinking for so long when we've been undermined and dismissed and not cared for for so long? And so so I just, you know, I always have to give it up to women for coming around and understanding and realizing, though, we have to go together. And you have willing participants and willing partners that do understand and do want to help. And that is really special. And that's really truly the way it should be. And so I think that is great. If there was one thing Nikki that you had to unlearn about reproductive or you want people to unlearn about reproductive healthcare. What is it and what should replace it instead? Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (25:32) that you deserve pain management, right? That like you don't have to raw dog these procedures. Which is really what's happening is that your clinicians are just telling you, come on in, take a little bit of Advil or ibuprofen beforehand. And it wasn't until just last year in 2025 that the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology recognized pain during procedures and suggested an entire kind of list of pain management options, including right, paracervical blocks or things like laughing gas. And I think we've, for so long, we've done colposcopies or cervical biopsy. Leslie Youngblood (25:40) What? Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (26:08) IUD insertions, endometrial biopsies, hystereosalpingograms, all of these procedures without pain management. And we're kind of told to just like... bare it. And I think the one thing, if I could tell every single woman, is to ask for pain management, but you have to ask for it in advance when you're talking about and planning the procedure. Because sometimes it's a prescription in advance or it's planning for it, right? It's drawing up the, it doesn't sound fun, but it's drawing up the needle for the paracervical block, the lidocaine block that goes into the cervix. And all of that can be done ahead of time for you coming into the clinic. But when your clinician only has five minutes to do your procedure and then you're like, Leslie Youngblood (26:27) Mm-hmm. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (26:49) But wait, right, like we're missing the window. So asking for pain management, but planning for pain management in advance is really the main ticket. Leslie Youngblood (27:00) That and that again is so simple, something you could easily ask whether it's, there a pain management plan for this or should I be aware of a pain management or I would like to talk to the doctor about pain management? And that is truly all you have to say. And is that simple? can really save you so much pain and struggle after those processes that maybe it should be. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (27:14) All you have to say. Leslie Youngblood (27:24) part of the process on the doctor's end, right? But also we have to play our part. If they're not doing it right, then like, but it's available, we have to be proactive. I think that's something too though, is in our healthcare system as a whole, where we've heard, I know from like a young age is like, you need to be your own advocate or I'm acting on behalf of my spouse who's sick or my mother who's sick because it's not that the healthcare system is out to get you, it's just structured. Not ideally, shall we say, especially in this country. And yeah, correct. Correct. doesn't care. It doesn't like your mind. That's not to support you in that way, but to know that there's simple questions like that going into any type of procedure and asking questions like that is something that can change the game for your healing and your life post procedure as well. So I think that, you know, is fantastic advice. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (27:51) It's not out to support you. Yep. Yeah, it's not out to support you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I think about that, I think about that for us, of course, right? And our own procedures. And then I also think about that as a mother. When I bring my kids to the pediatrician visit, right? The first thing I do, even though my kids are young, they're seven, five, and three, is when my pediatrician is asking, how's it going? How are you? Any concerns? I look at my kid and I say, go ahead and answer it. And I practice with my kid on the drive to the visit. And it's so simple, and the pediatrician probably gets slightly annoyed because it takes longer for a kid to answer than an adult to answer, but that's 101. Right? That's how we learn. That's how we set up our kids to learn the concepts of medical advocacy from a young age. So I think what's fundamental is for us to reshape the way we engage in the medical system. And if we're parents, also thinking about it as a critical skillset that we can teach our kids and using each moment and each doctor's visit, each pediatrician visit, each vaccine poke. Leslie Youngblood (28:54) Anyway. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (29:21) as an opportunity for our kids to have more autonomy over their bodies and more opportunity to advocate for themselves in a medical setting. Leslie Youngblood (29:31) Right. And that awareness too, where it's like, ⁓ I'm being asked. And that is so true because when I was a kid, my parents talked to the doctor for me. It's easy to fall into that same trap because that's what you grew up with. That's what you learned. And that just also. makes so much sense when it comes to our own advocacy for our own health and self because somebody else has talked for us for so long and then you don't know how to do it. Nobody's taught you how to what to ask how to say what to share what to not share and it just feels like you said and you just have this limited amount of time and so to to really cultivate that with our kids like you said is so important as well. And I think again that comes back to take back trust right and this really incredible platform for overall health that led to this book that we deserve more than we are just talking about. When did you first have the idea for that, Nikki? It's a digital platform. It's not just, I'm gonna talk about it, or post about it. It's truly this rich platform. When did that idea first come to you? How did you go about creating it? Tell us all about that beautiful thing. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (30:41) Yeah, so at this point in our podcast, you've now heard that I got fired and you can kind of put it into timeline. So I got fired in September of 2024 and we lost the election in November of 2024. So I'm still like, I don't know what I'm doing with my life, but I know that people need support and I know that reproductive health care is about to get worse in America. And yeah, and so Leslie Youngblood (31:01) pummeled. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (31:05) We lost that election on November 5th, 2024, and by November 7th, I had filed for an LLC for a take back trust two days later. And within 11 days, we built an entire website and platform where it had all the information you could possibly need about what's shifting and changing within the reproductive healthcare landscape and ways that you can kind of. learn more. Because what was happening at that time was it was really just Jessica Valenti from Abortion Every Day who was like answering these questions on her Instagram stories. But there was nowhere that these like concerns about the longevity of what we're going to see within reproductive health care were living. And so that was really the idea of Take Back Trust is if you want to know what we're looking at when it comes to reproductive health care and how it could possibly impact you coming down the pike, Leslie Youngblood (31:40) Mmm. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (31:57) That was kind of the idea of take back trust. Leslie Youngblood (32:00) And then what does the internet, making it a digital platform uniquely allow you to do that the traditional medical system does not? Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (32:09) Yeah, it just allows for a broader reach, right? It allows it to be, anyone can send it to anyone at any time of the day. And a big part of what we're focusing on now at Take Back Trust is the abundance of miss and disinformation that we see online. So we see this onslaught of crap on social media talking about all of these different things that are incorrect, right? Leslie Youngblood (32:28) I'm done. I'm done. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (32:37) blasting birth control as awful and talking about infertility in ways that aren't accurate. And so the goal right now of Take Back Trust is to really help to meet that moment. So we're not allowing that miss and disinformation to go unrecognized and unresponded to. Because if we throw our hands up in the air and just let them have the platforms, it's gonna spiral and get worse. And so the goal is also in being an online platform and being a relatively small org is to just kind of be nimble in our response of, ⁓ I see this language starting to snowball over here. Let's start talking about that also from an evidence fact-based background. Leslie Youngblood (33:22) ⁓ evidence and facts. What? are, what? Amazing. I mean, I think that has to be in any day and age being medically accurate while also being bold and accessible is in honest online is important today more than ever. Like you said, you have bots, have misinformation, you have the twisting of information. How did it? Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (33:25) Science! Leslie Youngblood (33:49) How do you continue to navigate that? Nikki, how does one possibly battle that crap? Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (33:59) You know, I think it's just a compass, right? You have a moral compass and you kind of keep your footing on your own North Star, right? And I think that North Star for me is shaped by my years in clinic. It's shaped by my years of advocacy. It's shaped by my own experience as a patient and a mother in the swing state of Michigan, right? So how do we kind of put all is shaped as a Jewish woman for the record who believes that abortion is fundamental health care and we don't believe that a fetus is a human being until they exist out of the womb. So it's shaped by all of these different factors and I have a very strong moral compass that kind of pushes me forward in this and You know, when I look at what I'm doing, I'm always open to left turns. So for example, we were finding on Take Back Trust that one of the most common Google searches that people were getting to us was flashbacks during sex. And out of that, I created an entire Take Back Trust for survivors. And we have an entire platform that is now about educating survivors of sexual assault and trauma. Leslie Youngblood (35:04) home. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (35:15) on what does it look like to engage in intimacy? What does it look like to go back to a gynecologist when the sound of a speculum clicking is triggering and traumatic, right? Like, how do you ask for trauma-informed care? What is trauma-informed care? These are all things that nobody tells you about. And specifically with sexual assault and survivorship, when you get to the other side of it, there's quite a few supports that are built, not a ton, for you in the moment. and then you get to the other side and you're kind of on your own. And so we really, I really realized that there's not great patient facing support about trauma informed care and medicine. And so again, that wasn't necessarily on my direct North Star compass, but while I was going to my North Star, this was one of the left turns where I saw a big vacant spot there that I know is crucial and is not being filled. And so we started stepping into that and it falls towards our North Star. But in my life, I never would have expected that my North Star was going to be navigating survivors through gynecological care. Right. But it's all part of the same puzzle. And so I think when I look at like, OK, how do we stay true to our mission and our goals? It's being open to some of the left turns and finding how do those Leslie Youngblood (36:20) you Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (36:44) fit back into your mission and your North Star. And when I look at all of it, that's still part of what drives me and makes me passionate about the work that I do. So it makes sense, but I think often we're just kind of like surprised by some of these things as well. Leslie Youngblood (37:03) Yeah, what has, what's another thing that surprised you the most about your work, especially from people who have finally feel seen for the first time? Nikki? Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (37:15) you know, it's I think what has surprised me is how quickly people will kind of break down barriers and break down walls to let me in. Like when you present as a safe person, when you spend your life doing work that is aligned with things that people need and want and feel validated by. all the time will be at a grocery store or at my son's, know, football, flag football game, and someone will come up and tell me their abortion story out of the blue. And it's a really beautiful thing because they know immediately I'm a safe space, right? And I think that part surprised me and has been really special to be that person for somebody else. And that's an honor that I don't take lightly. Leslie Youngblood (38:10) Yeah, and I think you mentioned before that you're in a swing state. We're in Michigan. all, you know, we're talking to Michigan founders and Detroit doers like yourself. How does being here shape your perspective on reproductive health care access and equity? And I know that even before you started Take Back Trust, you were very instrumental in getting the Michigan constitution changed. Was that 2016? No, that was 2018? that 2024? Gosh. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (38:35) No, that was 2024. Leslie Youngblood (38:40) Just all this blur. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (38:40) No, I'm sorry, 2022, 2022. It was the gubernatorial race with Gretchen Whitmer. Sorry. Leslie Youngblood (38:45) Gotcha, that's right. And so you've always been active here in the reproductive environment in Michigan. And I'm sure that our status as a swing state has a lot to do with that, where you feel even more like passionate and compelled to keep things as, know, driving them forward and keep these reproductive rights, you know, safe for women here ⁓ in the state. And you're from California too, which is another huge important state as well. So tell us a little bit about how being in Michigan has shaped your perspective on your work. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (39:10) Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's made me want to dig in more because there are moments where I'm like, oh, if we put in the work, then we can see some of the reward for it. Right. We put in the work for Prop 3 to entrain reproductive rights into our state constitution and we won with a massive margin of 57 % or whatever, 54%. It was high. And so I think that it's motivating in certain moments because you're like, oh, Well, if I show up and lean in, we get pieces of it back. So right now I'm part of a lawsuit that's suing the state of Michigan to overturn what's called the pregnancy exclusion. So if any of you remember the case of Adriana Smith, she was the woman in Georgia who was declared brain dead at nine weeks pregnant and was forced to be an incubator for her child until they were able to do a C-section on her. Leslie Youngblood (40:05) Mm. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (40:12) And in the state of Michigan, that law applies here also. If you've ever signed a ⁓ medical directive, your medical directive and advanced directive is null and void if you are pregnant at the time. And I didn't know that either. As a healthcare clinician, an OB-GYN PA, a mother of three, I signed and wrote my medical directive while I was pregnant and I had... Leslie Youngblood (40:16) No way. How do we not know? Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (40:40) no idea because it's a state mandate. So they just like put it in the like clause and written part that like you don't really have anything to do about that. So I had no idea. And then the Adriana Smith case happened and I was like, this can happen in my home state? hell no. And I posted about that. And I had several women that slid into my DM saying, hey, if you do anything about that, I'm in also. And I screenshotted those and I emailed them to myself so that one day if anything came of it, then I had, you know, like a team ready to go. Leslie Youngblood (40:59) Yeah. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (41:13) And lo and behold, there's an organization, two orgs called If When and How, and Compassion Choices. And they wanted plaintiffs to overturn this in the state of Michigan. And they came to me and I was like, well, here we go, right? Leslie Youngblood (41:29) What the? Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (41:30) And so, yeah, I'm one of their plaintiffs and I pulled all these other plaintiffs also from people who had been messaging me. And so being in the swing state of Michigan is really an important state because we've had so many wins, but we also have a lot of antiquated things that are on the books that we can still go get. For example, just last year, they made it so that PAs and nurse practitioners can provide abortion care. And that was thanks to Northland Family Planning and the Center for Reproductive Rights fighting for that via litigation, right? We just had the Michigan Fertility ⁓ Association push through the family. I forget exactly the name of the bill and my friend Stephanie Jones is going to kill me for this, but it was the surrogacy clause that helped because previously surrogacy was criminalized in Michigan. And so there's all these things that are like, literally, if you don't know this, it's insane. We have no support on the books to prevent doing pelvic exams under anesthesia in Michigan. And so that's something that we can continue to push through. like there's so many things that are still so antiquated. Leslie Youngblood (42:14) you Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (42:39) and so much to do here in Michigan that it feels like I can't help but get involved and be an advocate. Whereas if I was in California, thankfully there's so many people doing it where you're like, ⁓ someone else is gonna do it. I'm like, in Michigan, buckle up, baby, it's us, you know? Leslie Youngblood (43:00) Well, and I think that is so fascinating because one, you have no, I have no idea that those were even on the books. And I think, well, I'm progressive, I'm involved and I'm proud that we, you know, you know, we changed the Constitution and it's good. But it doesn't mean you can just sit back and relax or that there's not other things hiding in plain sight that you don't even know about. And I think that that is a horrible thing to realize, you know, too late, but then to thankfully have those who are like, oh no, we need to do this. We can't wait until it's too late. We have until that happens here in Michigan. What a horrible, tragic, awful thing that went on in Georgia. We need to be proactive and ensure that that doesn't happen to any Michigan woman ever in the future, ever again. And so. And so you think, I'm doing good. I'm involved in this. But then there's like still so much. But it's truly like the good work will never be done because then you're always going to have the other side pushing back and all that, you know, and what have you. And so and I'm very fortunate that you are here in Michigan and like to help us, you know, lead the way and to continue to make good on all these things that need to be made good in order to drive women's health care forward in general. And, know, and I think that, like you said, Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (44:09) Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (44:17) there somebody in California doing it? I'm good. And I think that can be a misconception. I don't want anybody listening to think that you shouldn't or cannot get involved because Nikki is leading the way and has amazing people around her doing this. But, you know, I think people misunderstand what advocacy and boots on the ground actually looks like. Nikki, what do you think when it comes to that? Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (44:33) Yeah. ⁓ it's so easy to get involved. It's so easy to do something. And I do think there's so many pieces to being nervous about getting involved. And I think a lot of people do hold themselves back. And I think right now, especially too, it's so horrific what's going on in the country that so many people are really just like completely turned off, don't know where to start. Everything is crumbling and it's easier to just do nothing. And of course it's easier to do nothing. I wish we could all do nothing, right? But like we can't all have that thought process. We can't all tune it out. And so if you are somebody who's like teetering in on the fence of like, wanna do advocacy work, but I don't know where to start. My recommendation is figure out what is most important to you. Is it reproductive healthcare? Is it gun reform? Is it immigration? Right? And then there are... ⁓ Is it dog rescues? It doesn't have to be political, right? ⁓ Is it soup kitchens? Like there are so many ways to be doing work that supports our communities and figure out within that, what is your skill set? What do you bring to the table? Are you an Excel spreadsheet master? Are you good at communications and videos? Are you good at? Leslie Youngblood (45:41) way. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (45:59) doing more operations where you can kind of figure out the way and strategy of certain things. And then you get affiliated with an organization that's already doing the work that's aligned with what you want to do. So when you break it down like that, you can really easily figure out an entry point. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. There are so many wheels that are already in motion. Leslie Youngblood (46:22) Mm-hmm. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (46:25) And we're actually better off if you're not reinventing your own wheel, if you're providing support to other orgs that are already doing those things, because more often than not, they need support right now. And so I think that's a big piece, is just figuring out, okay, what do I want to do? What are my skill sets? And then I tell myself this all the time, I cannot boil the ocean. I cannot boil the ocean. And early on, right, the school shootings are atrocious. And I had so many friends that were getting involved with Mom's Demand, and I love Mom's Demand, and I had friends that were trying to have me do Mom's Demand also. And I was like, my lane is repro. I need to use all of my skill sets and put them in one pot, and I can boil a pot, but I cannot boil the ocean. Leslie Youngblood (47:06) Mmm. Mmm. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (47:17) So if I'm doing repro and gun reform and all these different things, I don't think I'm contributing as much as if I just put all of my efforts into one pot. And I think that that's an important piece and lesson that we can learn is figure out what your pot is and then lean into it. Leslie Youngblood (47:37) I love that so much because it can feel overwhelming with trying to figure out what to do. today, every day, every single day as we move forward and you want to be able to do it all. know, everyone is so very critical, important, and yet you're one person. And so like you said, find your pot and pour into that pot and that will also help others find their additional pots and we all have to be able to do it together. can't, everybody has to be rowing the boat and you can't row the boat by yourself. And so I think that is so important in Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (48:09) Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (48:14) fantastically insightful for you to share because we all feel like we want to be fixing everything, but you can't. And that's just the fact, right? But you can make a difference by finding and like you said, don't start maybe a fresh new thing. Plug into another organization that's doing the good work that really resonates with you and it will all stem from there. And so I think that's fantastic advice. So tell us, Nikki, looking ahead with your work with Take Back Trust, with the book We Deserve More, what is a healthcare system that centers dignity, consent, and justice look like to you? Will we ever get there? Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (48:55) for a long time. It's not going to be a long time until we do. And so I think that's all the more reason that we do need to be leaning in to figuring out how do I advocate for myself within the shitty system that we have now, right? I don't think in America we are anywhere close to a healthcare system that does those things that you just mentioned, for better or worse. Leslie Youngblood (48:57) Mm. Yeah. Sure. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (49:22) I think you have certain providers within the system that might emulate those important pillars. But as a whole, I think the American healthcare system is not anywhere near that. So I think what is most important is for individuals to, instead of thinking, how do I get that? How am I going to find that to take on, okay, how do I change the way I engage in our current medical system to make it work better for me? Leslie Youngblood (49:23) Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And what's been your favorite part of the journey so far? Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (49:55) Every day is different. I like that I get to be creative. I like that I get to wear different hats. I like that I get to be very strategic. I feel like I'm playing chess every single day and I really like that. ⁓ Whereas in medicine, used to, towards the end of my tenure at that practice, I used to really like doing Botox on other people because it was the one moment that I got to be creative. It was the one moment that I got to, yeah. Leslie Youngblood (50:23) forgot that she did Botox! Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (50:25) Like I got to look at someone's face and be like, ooh, let me put this here, here and here. Like it wasn't so strict and stringent. And like it felt so much of what I did was very monotonous on a day to day basis. And so I really like now being able to have time where I'm like doing big picture work. I really like the big picture movement building. I really like. Leslie Youngblood (50:40) Yeah. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (50:52) working together with other people that are working to move the same missions forward. And I think when we go back to that, like, where do you want to be involved in? What is your pot? The cool thing is, is when you pick a pot, you end up in a pot with all the other people that also picked that pot, right? And that's a cool thing, because all of a sudden you're like, we get each other, and we're really fighting for the same thing and I think especially now we're all in the fight of our lives right now for this. And if you're working on it and if you're working towards it and if you're fighting fascism and doing these things, like, you find friends pretty easily because we're all exhausted by the same shit right now. Leslie Youngblood (51:31) It is like a beautiful thing when you have a conversation and you're like, oh, it's the world's crazy. they're like, oh my God, yes is. And you're like, oh my God, yay. You think the same thing. You think this is bullshit too. And that just really is so wonderful. And it's truly in the community, right? Where we find strength and change. And so looking ahead, Nikki, we know, we take back trust. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (51:46) Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (51:59) building out and continuing to build this incredible platform, the book we deserve more coming out this spring. What is next outside of those things? Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (52:07) think those are the things. It's just, moving it forward. It's continuing to work with storytellers that are sharing their abortion stories and reproductive healthcare stories and amplifying that. It's listening to women and what they need and they're missing. And it's, you know, taking those left turns to still fit within that North Star that we talked about. And I've got, you know, the goal is to just be able to keep doing. the things that I'm doing and so figuring out the additional ways that we make it sustainable and we can scale it bigger so we can impact more people. And I think that's the name of the game is I know this is something that's needed and so we gotta just keep building it. Leslie Youngblood (52:53) Yeah, I love that. That's amazing. You're amazing. Please, as we wrap up, Nikki, I would love for you to share where our listeners can connect with you outside of today's podcast. And we will drop all of these links in the show notes as well. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (53:05) Yay, yeah, you can find me on all the socials at Nikki Vink, N-I-K-K-I-V-I-N-C-K. So you can see me there, takebacktrust.com. And then I do have a website, nikkivink.com that has all of the links where you can buy my book too. Leslie Youngblood (53:22) Awesome. And Nikki, you're doing a Instagram series. Are you not? Right now? Isn't that? Tell us about that. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (53:27) I am, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that's called the resistance room. It's just the goal is to anybody who's in the repro pot or not, right? Just to really highlight what do conversations and connection look like? And it started with having people that are in the movement with me and wanting to catch up with them point blank and being like, hey, instead of just doing a Zoom, let's just do it on Instagram Live. Leslie Youngblood (53:50) All right. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (53:54) So people get to see what it looks like to in real time be making connections and moving this kind of force along for good together. And so I think that's part of the fun is it's just, it's literally conversations with other people who are doing similar work and having them in a public forum so that other people can feel part of these conversations. I want people to realize that that barrier to entry for advocacy is really low. And all it looks like is having a 15 to 20 minute conversation with somebody. And that's it, right? And so that's the premise is it's a very simple, it's called the resistance room. And it's different politicians and storytellers and reproductive healthcare advocates. And we talk for 15 to 20 minutes. It's pretty fun on Instagram Live. Leslie Youngblood (54:47) I love it. Everybody make sure you tune in. Those are incredible conversations. Nikki, you are amazing. We are so grateful and honored to have had you join us today. The work you're doing is life changing, truly, and world changing, community changing, state changing, and please keep up the good work. Thank you so much. Nikki Sapiro Vinckier (55:07) Thanks for having me, Leslie. Thanks, everyone. Leslie Youngblood (55:10) Cheers! Bye.