Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 432: Hit 'Em Where They Ain't with Ian Frazier

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Ep. 432: Hit 'Em Where They Ain't with Ian Frazier · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: If this is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast, you can't
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: predict anything presented by first Light, creating proven versatile hunting
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear for every hunt,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: first Light Go Farther, Stay Longer. Okay. Joined today by
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: fabulous author Ian Fraser, author probably arguably, when I make
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: lists of the of my favorite books of all time,
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: usually at the top of the list is the book
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Great Planes.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: I'm glad to hear that I taught you a word
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: with that book. You did remember the word ichi PASISI?
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, but I can't remember what I meant.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: It's a Lakota word. If it's growing, going along a stream,
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: crossing back and forth, it is a very useful word.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: You can say I went down that stream, I went
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: down that crek ichi PASISI. And later I checked with
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Lakota people and they said it actually means sewing. But yeah,
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: but the guy was using it, the guy I was
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: talking to was using it as ways telling me how
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: to get to.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: It.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Is like we even back and forth with a sewing right,
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: It's like you're yeah, it is a sewing motion.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: But author of I don't even know how many things
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: so award winning writer, hem, how many books you have?
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: We have a zillion written down, but it's.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: A zillion, it's like it's slightly less. It's about I
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: would say a million, billion, trillion.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Author of a lot of fantastic books, including Travels in Siberia. Yes,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: it's a great book. Thank you, and culminates in a
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: very spirited argument that Stalin Joe are not okay.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Stalin jokes are not okay.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: I don't remember writing that you did? I did? Okay.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Well, the thing is, you had a big influence on
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: that book. I did because I wrote that. The New
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Yorker paid a lot of expenses for it, so I
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: owed them a lot of that book. So I gave
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: him the book and they kind of condensed part of it,
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: and he said, don't do that. And I think they
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: did a good job condensing it. But I'm that that
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: decided me. It's very hard when you have a book
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: and then you have a magazine excerpt to do justice
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: to both of them. And the next time I'm not
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: doing not doing more anymore condensing. But that was you
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: don't remember. That was your verdict on it.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: No, I can't believe I had any advice. You did
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: have advice. The best thing you ever said to me.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: You said a lot of great things to me. The
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: best thing you ever said to me. I can't say.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Why can't you tell the story all the time. I
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: wouldn't tell it publicly, I'd tell it privately all the time. Okay,
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you later what you said. Okay.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: It was a financial advice you.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: After you wrote, after you wrote your book about the
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Pine Ridge Reservation. We were a book called on the Reds,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: which is a phenomenal history of the Pine Ridge Reservation
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: in the in the in the wars against the Sioux
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  Speaker 1: and confinement to reservation and what happened on the reservation.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: You offered a summation of you offered a summation of
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: your findings, and it was I just wanted to say
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: it publicly. Okay, Well, you can tell me later what
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: it was. You said another great thing to me one day,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: because uh so Ian Fraser, I'm gonna his friends call
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: him Sandy. I'm gonna be using the word sandy. It's
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: from Ohio. Yes, I am from Michigan. Yeah. And you
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: said to me Not long after we met, you said,
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: whenever I think of Michigan, I think of people who say, fucker's.
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: That's fantastic.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: All right, Well, I would tell you a story, a
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: Michigan related story about gray planes. Because Great Plains was
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: on the best seller list for ten weeks New York
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: Times bestseller.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: That's that's a hard thing to pull off.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: And it was bumped off the best seller list. And
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: the book that bumped it off, that moved it, that
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: replaced it on the best seller list was Bo by
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Bo Schambackler, oh Michigan coach for about fifty years. He
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: bumped you, He bumped me, and we were, of course
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: very opposed to Michigan football because we were Ohio State fans.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: But I want to tell you another thing you said
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: to me. Then we're gonna then we're gonna, we're gonna
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: come back to all your work. But here's an earthing
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  Speaker 1: you said to me one time when I got out
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: of graduate school. I uh, I want to prefaces by saying,
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: I don't mean any offense to the individual we're going
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: to talk about. When I got out of graduate school,
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: I largely motivated by uh. I never told you this
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: largely motivated by great planes. And what a phenomenal job
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: you did with that book about the American Great Plains.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: I was, I was like, I want to and and
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: other things too, but I wanted to go. I was
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: going to go back. I went to graduate school in Montana.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: I was going to go back to Michigan. My dad
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: just died, so I had access to his truck. He
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: didn't need it anymore, and I was going to go
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: back to Michigan and drive all around. I was gonna
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: do like a history of the Great Lakes where I
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: grew up. And I knew certain weird things about the
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: Great Lakes. Have I talked about this before? I don't know.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: I don't think. So. I knew certain things about the
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Great Lakes that I didn't think anybody knew, Like, for instance,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: after after, who's the founder of the Joseph Smith founder
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: of the Mormon Church. So Joseph Smith was hanged by
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: a mob in Carthage, Illinois. Is that Yes, there was
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: a power struggle between his followers, and there was two
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: emerging forces came out of this, Brigham Young and a
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: guy named James Jesse Strange I think was his name.
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  Speaker 1: One of them was like I'm gonna head out to
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  Speaker 1: the Great Salt Lake, Okay to flee persecution. And one
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: of them was like, I'm gonna head to Beaver Island
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: in Lake Michigan with my followers to flee persecution. Strange.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: So Brigham Young went on to like very successfully, you
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: know establish you know Zion, right, And Brigham Young goes
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: up to this little dinky ass island in Lake Michigan.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Get strange. Strange goes up to this dinky ass island
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: in Lake Michigan like starts trying to intercept ships and
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: act like they were in his waters and tax them
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: like he was a sovereign nation. Yeah, he winds up
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: getting shot by his own followers next to a wood
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: pile along the beach, and that was the end of
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: his whole experiment. They had had it with him. Another
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: thing I knew about the Great Lakes was that I
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: thought was interesting is at one time a Niagara Falls,
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: a guy a zoo went out of business, and a
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: guy bought all the shit from the zoo, all the animals,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: and put him on a barge and charge and sold
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: tickets to watch him run the barge over the falls.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: I'd heard of that, Yeah, but I grew up on
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: the grade that nowadays would get you kicked off social media.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: If you posted reading.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: A lot of people would watch it first.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: They would you would not you'd get all kind you'd
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: never dig out of that hole.
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: A third of the crowd's going, well, I mean, listen,
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: he's gonna do it anyway. The apathy.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: So I was like armed with these things, you know.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: And then this book comes out by this guy named
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Jerry Dennis, and his hook for his book is that
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: some dude bought a boat. I don't know, Like, some
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: guy buys a boat out in the ocean somewhere in
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: the either way, he's got to get on a boat
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: and sail off through the Great Legs. So that's his
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: sort of angle. So it's a travelog about the Great Legs.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: But in it, some bitch talks about no offense. Jerry
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Dennis talks about the Mormon split, talks about the the
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: menagerie of critters going over the.
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  Speaker 3: Falls that took the wind out of your sails.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Oh it did. And just as the book was coming out,
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: I called Sandy and I said, man, there's a book
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: coming out by a guy named Jerry Dennis. And I
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: wrote him or email out to I conveyed this to him,
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: and it's really just taking the wind out of my
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: sails on this whole project. And he left me a voicemail.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: He left me a voicemail some days later and it said, Uh,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: you know, I've been thinking since you called, and I
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: can't think of one good book ever written by a
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: guy named Jerry. I started. I had to think, like,
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: does Jerry Lewis write good books? Uh, we're going to
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: get into this whole body work.
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: Are you guys gonna talk about like people are probably
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: wondering how you guys even know each other.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: We know each other from the so we met. Here's
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: how we met. You probably don't even know this.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Well, let's see, I probably don't.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: When I was going to when I was in graduate
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: school in the writing program, you came in as like
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: a visiting writer.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, of course I remember that well.
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  Speaker 1: And then you so I used to So I wouldn't
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: be sitting here if it wasn't I wouldn't be sitting
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: here if it wasn't for you and you and a
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: handful like like mister Heaton from Reese Buffer High School, right,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: And then you know, probably not because of him, but
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: then largely because of you, because is to submit to
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: magazines by just sending shit in the mail, which didn't
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: work out. Well, no one has time to look at
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: all that stuff. And you vouched for me and fronted
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: my work at Outside magazine.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Well, can I tell my version of this?
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Is it different than that?
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: It's a little bit more, it's a little bit more nuanced.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Oh okay.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: I taught at University of Montana for two weeks, so
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: my contact with the students in the MFA program was
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: not large. I was just there very briefly, and you
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: submitted a piece, and I mean, this is just a
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: personal thing of mine, but I think if you can
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: avoid an MFA program, avoid it.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you didn't tell that because you were talking to
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: MFA people.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: Well no, and because they were paying me, so I
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: was just doing what was asking me. But spiritually I'm
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: not a big fan of MFA programs. So you gave
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: me this piece and it was incredibly good. It was
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: about the weather in Michigan, in northern Michigan, and I
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: mean it was just it just blew me away, and
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: I said, you quit, leave this program.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: You could make a living at this right now. Don't
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: do this. Go and I.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: Could, I can, you know, talk to people, you could
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: get pieces published. Right now, this is really good and
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: you quite sensibly finished. I've given people so much bad
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: advice over the years, but you you sensibly you finished.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: And then you wrote somewhat later. You wrote a piece
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: about fishing in the outflow from a damt Michigan, where
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: you went up into the tunnel coming out of the generators,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: sleeping there and sleeping. You had your boat hooked up
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: to something along the side.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: I mean it was like there was such a concrete
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: anchor driven into the roof and you could tie off
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: on it.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: And what are you fishing for?
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: White Because like you had to compete in that spot
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: with old men that would get up so early. So
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: we would leave the bar on occasion and take our
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: boat and park it in the good spot in the dam.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, we'd we can sleep in sleeping bags.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: Two in the morning. Old men get up and we'd
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: be in the tube. And so the fish would come up, steelhead,
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: white fish would come up to feed on these insects.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Because this it was a big there was a diversion
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: in the river. They like manually like mechanically diverted a
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: big chain of the suit the Saint Mary's River ran
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: it all through town and then down a slope, and
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: then it powered this big hydro electric dam and that
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: thing that that that river would be so soulful insect
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: life that when it flowed back into the Saint Mary's
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: all this like larva and mayflies and whatever coming out
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: of these turbans. And you could just sit there in
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: turbans watch fish just sitting there feeding in these in
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: the outwash of the turban. So my brother and his
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: body who lived there before I moved up there, they
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: hit an idea to just go in the middle of
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: the night and get the good because you couldn't understand it.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: But certain turbans produced really well and they would get
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: their turban by just going in the morning. So then
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: old men would think they got it because they didn't know,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: and they'd pull up and realize you're sleeping in the thing.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: That it was great. It was great. I can't claim
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: the discovery, but I wrote about the experience.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: So you gave that piece to D. Mcknamer, who taught
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: it you of M and D said, this is a
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: fabulous piece, and she sent it to me, and I
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: sent it to Mary Turner and outside and I said,
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: this guy is great and that was your first piece
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: and outside, as I recall.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: Dude, that was I was happier that you know. You
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: saved your message on my machine.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: You called me after they bought it, and it was
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: the happiest message I've ever gotten on my machine.
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: Him.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I just talked to Mary Turner. I talked
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: to Mary Turner. She will have the pace. She's gonna
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: pay me four thousand dollars. It was such a huge
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: amount of money. This is like I remember being hanging
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: shower doors or something at the time I was doing
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: cabinet was installing. I was installing, uh, I was installing
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: closet shelving, and then working for in the tree service business. Yeah,
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: and uh, oh my god, there's a lot of money.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: I remember being in the bar that night. I could
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: have just died that night, be in the bar that night,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: and like certain friends were like happy. Certain friends were
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: just so tore up, like they couldn't even look at me.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: They're so jealous. I had all this money. I bought
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: a truck topper when it stayed several days at a
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: hot spring.
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: Your closet shelving. Was it just MDF, like prepainted MDF.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you said to drive over to Spokane and pick
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: it up.
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So for those of you who don't know, as
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: far as your interior finishes go, this is not uh,
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: this would be the bottom of the skilled label.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, because I installed the bottom. The
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: bottom is wire. A good job for us was the
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: melomine the wood bottom is wire melomane. Yeah, all right, Uh,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: if you remember back a few episodes we had on
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: some anthropologists and archaeologists and we talked about a project
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: in which me and some other folks from the Meat
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Eater crew went out and butchered a bison using stone tools.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: We used particularly Clovis points, Clovis projectile points, stone flakes,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: and we like gutted, skinned, butchered, boned out, and entire
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: bison in collaboration with researchers from Kent State University, SMU,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Southern Methodist University, and Oregon State University as all part
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: of this broad or study about developing a toolkit, so
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: to speak, for how to interpret what happened at ice
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: age kill sites where all you have left is bone
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: in stone. So we were using stone tools to butcher
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: an animal, and then the research was to be able
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: to like, look at what happened to these bones, what
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: happened to these stones, and use it as clues, right
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: to put together the puzzles of what was going on
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: when hunters during the Ice Age were chopping up bison
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: and wooly mammoths and whatnot. That is now an episode
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: that we've put together for YouTube, So look for that
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: real soon on the Meat Eater YouTube channel. Oh that
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: this'll you'll appreciate this because this is from Ohio. Do
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: you follow Ohio news a little bit? Yeah, you've reared
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: the walleye cheating scan. Oh of course I couldn't know
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: about that. My god. So well, I'll tell you something
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: you might not know. Okay, did you see in the
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: videos where he cut the walleyes open and got the wine?
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: I haven't seen them.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Well, we own the knife it.
• 17:02
  Speaker 6: Was, yes, that is well, I think it's actually just pliers.
• 17:08
  Speaker 7: Again, it's a leather man, but don't leatherman make Okay, it's.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: What we own. The implement used to cut the walleyes
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: open to discover the lead weights. In addition to the
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: shirt of the man wielding that weapon, we'll talk about
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: valuable ship. Uh, we own that stuff. So that case
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: is trickling along. We're into the news segment. They pleaded
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: guilty to felony cheating and miss This is an interesting one.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Misdemeanor animal ownership, presumably meaning they were owning the walleyes. Yeah.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: I would think that would be like over the limit
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: or something.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: But misdemeanor animal ownership. So Jacob Runyon forty three and
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Chase Kaminski, who's in which of these fellers is an
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: all that trouble for trying to go to the bowling
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: alley with hard dollar counterfait.
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: Kids exactly, which I think plays into the plea deal heavily.
• 18:09
  Speaker 6: I think it's Chase.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: Chase, he got a bunch of trouble. He's got like
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: violating a restraining order, bowling with counterfeit money.
• 18:18
  Speaker 6: Here's encouraging his kid to do that. I mean, that's like,
• 18:22
  Speaker 6: well the.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: Kid thought none of that stuff was supposed to influence
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: this stuff.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Well that's why I did. That's why I didn't want to, like,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: I don't think because there's a thing in America called
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: it's not double jeopardy, it's called he is it habeas corpus.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: What is it that you can't bring up all the
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: all the best stuff you did.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure the legal term, but that's what I'm
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: getting dude.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: If I rewrote the Constitution, I would lead with fixing
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: that you'd.
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: Be like, well, this guy, Well it does go right
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: when you establish somebody's character as a reliable witness. Like
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: if if a prosecutor could get one of these fellows
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: on the stand and be like, so you're saying that
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: the fish just ate led weights and Walleye fill a's
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: and you just caught the fish, right, Sure that that
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: could happened. We can't prove it can't. But for you
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: to be a reliable witness, what's your track record in
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: lying and what's your right and so they could go back. Yes. Now,
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: the why I think it does play in is just
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: the fact that in order to pay your legal counsel
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: and go through a long drawn out trial process of
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: trying to defend yourself by saying, listen, although we cannot
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: biologically prove that walleye eat lead weights and walleye fill
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: as all the time.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: I could prove that they don't eat walleye fil as.
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: So that's gonna cost a bunch of money. He's already
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: on the hook. Bad pun for uh having to clear
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: up his other legal troubles too, So I'm thinking he's
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: just looking at the overall cost of fighting it. Yeah,
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: keeping keeping his head above water another bad punch maybe,
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: But yeah.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: They they pled guilty to these things. Okay, they were
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: initially indicted on cheating, attempted grand theft, possession of criminal tools.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Tells that mean illegal. I love illegal animal ownership. But
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: when they appeared yesterday Inkoyahogakuyahoga, Cuyahoga County Court, both men
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: pleaded guilty to two of those charges in exchange for
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: the remaining charges being dropped. Now, Jason Fisher, who's been
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: on this show, is glad they pleaded out. Fisher organized
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: a tournament at which Running and Kaminski were caught and
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: appeared in the I'm reading from our own reporting. I
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: should point out to Jordan Siller's piece on the meater
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: dot Com. Uh, this is the one time I'm not
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: like guilty of not adequately sorting or sourcing where I'm
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: getting something from, because Jordan's been on the damn show.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: So uh. Jason goes on to say it was nice
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: to see they played guilty as opposed to no contest.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: They admitted to doing everything that the state said they did.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: It's good for the fishermen in the community as a
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: whole to put this to bed. He points out this
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: is an interesting perspective that Jason Fisher has. Jason Fisher
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: says he's almost kind of glad they're not going to jail,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: because then taxpayers would have to pay for them to
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: live in jail. He'd rather they just took their boat
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: away and never let them do any walleye tournaments again,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: so he doesn't have to think of himself footing the
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: bill to pay them to give them their food, which
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: is an interesting perspective on prison time. Usually put people
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: in prison because you want to stick it to them,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: but he wants to stick it to him by not
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: putting them in prison.
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: And let's be fair, they're doing a great job at
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: sticking it to themselves.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: So yeah, because anyone up you'd think if you got
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: caught cheating on a walleye tournament, you would not take
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: one hundred dollars counterfeit bills to the bowling alley. I
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: don't know, do you know what I mean? I wouldn't
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: if I do something a little bit bad, I like
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: play it cool for a while, you know what I mean?
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: You don't double down?
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we have a correction on a correction. Can you
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: explain how we're at a point where there's a correction
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: ont of correction?
• 22:25
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 22:26
  Speaker 7: So shortly after the podcast the Liberal recordded Trey, Yep, we're.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Talking about it was a podcast called The Liberal Redneck Right.
• 22:35
  Speaker 7: Trey wrote in that he did a little bit more
• 22:37
  Speaker 7: digging and he determined that what he had said on
• 22:41
  Speaker 7: air was incorrect.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: That he had said that the only thing going for
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: his hometown was they held the wall the small mouth
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: basks yep, world record, right, but then he said they
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: got beat and even that was taken.
• 22:55
  Speaker 6: From them, right.
• 22:57
  Speaker 7: And so before it aired, Phil recorded a little correction and.
• 23:05
  Speaker 6: You know, because we're going to get that Phil.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 23:09
  Speaker 5: He was just a quick little like, hey Phil here,
• 23:10
  Speaker 5: Trey texted and said that you're a little correction back
• 23:12
  Speaker 5: to this.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: You installed that in the episode, Yes, got here it
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: real quick.
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: Hey everyone, Phil here with a quick note. Immediately after
• 23:20
  Speaker 5: the show, Trey did some research and found out that
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: Selina and Dale hollow Lake still hold the record for
• 23:26
  Speaker 5: the small mouth bass. According to him, he quote assumed
• 23:31
  Speaker 5: the universe had taken that from us as well. My bad,
• 23:34
  Speaker 5: Thanks Trey, and back to the show.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: So that what happened. Now we're in a situation where
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: there was a correction on a correction because a gentleman
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: wrote in who's this person?
• 23:44
  Speaker 6: He lives nearby Kyle due name.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Kyle writes in he has this to say. Mister Crowder
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: was not incorrect in saying that the record was taken away.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: What he would have been incorrect in saying is that
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: it was taken away from the lake. Right you're thinking yourself, what, well,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you the record was removed from the individual,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: but the previous record, which would have been the record
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: by default, was also caught in dale Hollow Lake. So
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: even if the record had been permanently redacted, Dale Hollow
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: would still hold the world small mouth record. Two of
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: the top three. This is a hard sentence to understand.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Two of the top oh two of the top three,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: and six of the top ten largest small mouth have damn,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: you know this person, Well, there's a reason like when
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: you have Let me just tell this person, if you're listening,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: never start a sentence with a numeral, you always spell
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: it out yeah started.
• 24:52
  Speaker 6: A sentence up to eleven.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Yea in some places will make you spell anything under
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: ten every time. Two of the top three and six
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: of the top ten largest small mouth caught have come
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: from Dale Hollow, per Bass Bass Senior Editor Ken Duke.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: The current record, now confirmed to have been caught in
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Kentucky waters on the Kentucky and Tennessee shared water body
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: that is Dale Hollow, was wrought with drama. Oh so
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: this gets thicker.
• 25:30
  Speaker 6: Yet this is what trail alluded to before.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: So Tennessee and Kentucky share this lake. The current record
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: came out of Dale Hollow Lake, but out of the
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Kentucky waters. The fish, caught by David Hayes Litchfield, Kentucky,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: was weighed first on scales that were not certified. After
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: being told this fish, if certified, would be the new
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: world record, the fish was rushed to Cedar Hill Marina,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: which housed the closest set of certified scales. Six weeks
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: after the fish had been confirmed, David Barlow, a guide
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: on Dale Hollow, filed an affidavit stating that he had
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: handled the fish, shoving multiple pieces of hardware and or
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: weights into its gullet to increase the weight plot dickens,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Why did he admit to that?
• 26:24
  Speaker 6: I don't know.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: Couldn't live with himself. I don't know.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Maybe they waterboarded them. The IGFA denounced the world record
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: because of the affidavit. Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Resources followed suit. Tennessee Wildlife and Resource Agency held on though,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: and in their investigation found that Barlow was not even
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: at the marina on the day of the fish had
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: been weighed, So he was lying about doing something bad.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Hm about do something bad. That's when he puts his
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: own personal integrity, like he's weighing in his head. What
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: matters more my personal integrity or that son of a
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: bitch having the bass record? Yeah, he's like, I'd rather
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: have right, I'll forfeit personal integrity to have him not
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: have the satisfaction of the bass record is how Barlow
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: apparently according to this piece of journalism, so he hadn't
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: been there. This A combinates this in combination with the
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: measurements of this fish. The resulting estimated way of recorded
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: measurements and the official way on the certified scales resulted
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: in the record being reinstated by both IGFA in the
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Kentucky State Department. The fish now holds the IGFA World Record,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: the kdfw R State Record, and the TWR A State record.
• 27:57
  Speaker 7: So the International Game and Fish so Siation and then
• 28:01
  Speaker 7: Kentucky and Tennessee's Wildlife departments.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: If you're thinking yourself, by God, would I like to
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: get a look at that fish? There's a replica of
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: it at the Kabella's out Post store in Bowling Green, Kentucky.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: If you want to pay your respects to the angler.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: The ramp where he launched that day has been memorialized
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: as the David L. Hays bor Go. I love it.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Any point did they say how big the fish was?
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: You know that the story? Now that's called bad producing
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: right there, Crenel, dig yourself.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: Out high highs.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: And let's just called twelve. That's a nice moment. That's
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: bad because that go ahead.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: No, no, you if you've caught a bass that big,
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: would you turn it into a levon fish sandwiches? Or
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: do you you got any urge to have a world record?
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: How kept it? How to kept it?
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: Assuming it's legal to keep it?
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah? And then pound for pounds? Some people say it's
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: the hardest, hardest fight in freshwater fish is the small
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: mouth bass. That thing would have put up a tussle.
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: Plus you're just awesome looking red eyes, tiger stripes.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: Way cooler and large mouse. Uh. We reported on I
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: don't know if that counts. That might be over selling it.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: We talked about South Carolina is harvest the tag coyote
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: program and win so South Carolina has previously discussed on
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: this show is running a program right now to encourage
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: the harvest of coyotes. I'll point out that our guests
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Ian Fraser had had a book one time called Coyote
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: v acme Yes, in which you laid out the legal
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: case that Wiley coyote would have against acme Yes, where
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: he buys his stuff to kill road runner. Right. I
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: mean it's.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: You know, it's product malfeasance. I mean, they're selling this guy,
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: and they're selling it over and over.
• 30:20
  Speaker 7: You know.
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, one of those things everybody thinks about, but nobody
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: took the time to write.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, and then he also wrote a thing
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: I believe that you argued that if you really wanted
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: to have a good relationship, you date your mother.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Well, that was one of my very very early pieces
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: when I was like twenty five years old.
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: Does this fall under the bad advice category?
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: It was advice I think taken by nobody, nobody I knew,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: and it wasn't My mother wasn't crazy about it either.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: But so South Carolina is running a program to encourage
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: coyote harvest in order to, you know, in order to
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: org straight on predator control in the interest of recovering
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: some game species. They have been tagging kylets and cutting
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: them loose, and if you get one of the kyotes
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: that's tagged, you get a lifetime hunting license. And they
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: thought through it enough to be that you could also
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: is it confers out the word I'm looking for where
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: you give.
• 31:20
  Speaker 6: Something to sorry, maybe transfer.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: You transferred to somebody else, Meaning if I got one
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: of these kyots, I could give it to my daughter
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: who's who's ten, and then she's got a lifetime hunt license.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: A guy heard this and was talent wrote in to
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: tell us how in South Dakota they used to tag
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: pheasants and turn them out, and if you shot a
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: tagged pheasant you'd be rewarded with Akabella's gift card. And
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: he just wanted to let us know that he one
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: time was looking at a breasted out pheasant in a
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: ditch and realized that had the band on it.
• 31:58
  Speaker 6: So whoever hunted it and.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: It is coworker took the band down and got a
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: five thousand dollars gift card out of the ditch.
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: Are you aware of the million dollar pheasant?
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: No?
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: No, so the same deal and this is a full
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: tourism deal. Fesonomics in South Dakota is fascinating to me.
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: The so they banded one hundred birds, released them. Thirty
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: six birds were turned in, and of those one hundred birds,
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: they had the insurance company randomly select one of those numbers,
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: store it an electronic device in a safe somewhere, and
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: then you know, if somebody turned in that magic number,
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: they could win a million bucks.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Really yep?
• 32:50
  Speaker 6: Wow? Is that is that like the state's money?
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: You know how these.
• 33:01
  Speaker 7: Is?
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: You?
• 33:03
  Speaker 6: Because tourism dollars pony.
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: Up a bunch of cash that is like a deposit
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: eventually and you get it that the money comes from
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: like this insurance payout scenario, as I understand.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: It, But did you think that's true?
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: But I know it's true, But.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: Did anybody did anybody win the million.
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: I'm not sure if anybody ever won the million.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: Because it kind of seems like they're gambling, like, yeah,
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: I wanted one hundred, it probably will never happen, you know,
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: but you didn't. We don't know if anybody won, right.
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but there were, you know, thirty six of the
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: bands turned in, and of those thirty six, none of
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: them were million dollar birds.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: So what makes a little bit of sense what you're
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: talking about is I was at a fundraiser in Wyoming
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: one time, and they were giving away a truck if
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: you could roll a set of dice and get five
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: of a kind, which isn't gonna happen. It's not gonna happen.
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: Okay, maybe if you're playing Yazzi with your grandma, but
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: not if you're playing Yazzi for your truck.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: So I was there and I was like m seeing.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: The fundraiser was a nonprofit fundraiser, and they had a
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: guy from the insurance company down there, and the guy
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: weighed all the dice. He came in and analyzed the
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: dice and he measured out where you had to stand
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: and where the dice had to wind up so that
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: it had to be like a legit roll, and he
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: was a supervising. He was like an insurance man supervisor,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: because no one's gonna roll it, right, So they had
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: bought some sort of policy that on the what are
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: the odds that you'd roll five of a kind? That'd
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: be a quick internet search.
• 34:58
  Speaker 5: If I can remember my sick high school probability.
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: It's like a yachtzi roll, right, like five dice five
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: of a kind.
• 35:07
  Speaker 5: Is like a one in like like, and then there's
• 35:10
  Speaker 5: like an exponential sort of addition you have to do.
• 35:12
  Speaker 5: It's like five times five times five.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: We just let someone else do it on the computer.
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: One in seven thousand, seven hundred and seventy six. So
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: it doesn't sound that crazy. So you had no but
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: it is better odds and drawn a sheep tag one
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: in seven thousand, seven hundred and seventy six.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: Yeap. You had to first win a chance to roll
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: the dice.
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: Ooh, that makes it.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So everybody's all excited about getting to be the
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: dice roller. And then when you get to be the
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: dice roll, you got a one in seven thousand somehow
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: chance the rolling of win the thing. So they insured
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: this somehow, and of course the guy, you know.
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, just you know, Shake a Day in western bars
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: is a big deal, and it's the same thing. It's
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: like you they're fifty cents, you get a chance, whatever
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: the pot is, and it used to be the pot
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: of all these people losing fifty cents to the Shake
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: a Day would get really high and then the state
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: capt it for because it's gambling. So I think a
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: legal pot is five hundred dollars or less or eight
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: hundred dollars or less now in the state of Montane,
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: I can't remember which. But while I was back in
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: my bartending days, I had several people win Shake a
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: Day pots, right, I mean it eventually it does hit.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: You can imagine that whoever wins that at a bar
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: does not then just go leave and make a deposit.
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: One little asshole kid did, Okay, So I bartended working
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: Man's Bar, okay, and everybody when when a normal patron
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: would win by around all the bartenders got a big tip,
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: you know, and then everybody and then he'd buy a
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: couple of rounds for everybody and then maybe take some
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: winnings home. Yeah, if it was like a regular who
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: happens to be like in their twenties. None of the
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: money maver made at home, they went and.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: Paid rent with it. Well, they they drank it.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: They they forgot how the left.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: You're talking about the kid that left.
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: But the kid one kid comes in watches some other
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: people roll and it was like Halloween nights, something obnoxious
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: and goes, oh, I want to do that, And he's
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: like staring at the dice, and part of me, honest
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: to God, wanted to be like, Okay, see you because
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: I just knew how it was going to go down.
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: And he scooped up the money and ran out of
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: the bar, never to be seen again. It was not
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: the way you're supposed to play the game.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: I like think he invested all that money. He's a
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: very successful businessman.
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: Now curing cancer.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: More feedback. This this is the last. This is the last,
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: the last up top information we got to cover for today.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: So what was the name of the show where we
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: talked about down in Florida, Oh, Spitting and Strutton. Yeah,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: if you refer back to the episode Spitting and Strutton,
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: we had a guest down who was explaining to me
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: how someone he knows hates me because a person from
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: the USGS said how Python eradication programs are not effective
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: in Florida, and he hates me for not arguing with him. Okay,
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: that individual, that former guest who spoke on Burmese Python
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: the Burmese Python explosion in Florida wrote in, so I
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: have a note to the hater. I didn't catch his name,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: but as someone shared, I was, I looked at his
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: Instagram page. He has a Well, it doesn't matter. So
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Bob Reid wrote in to say, this is the researcher
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: from the USGS who works on population ynamic issues with
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: invasive Burmese pythons in South Florida. He said, sorry to
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: hear that a dude in Florida hates you because I
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: said there's no evidence that the Python control programs are
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: having a significant effect on populations at landscape scales. He
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: doesn't say, however, but you could. There's an implied However.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: He goes on to say, we just published a big
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: scientific review of pythons in Florida. The conclusion from the
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: removal program section remains the same, no available evidence of
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Python suppression across the landscape despite removal of over thirteen
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: thousand pythons. He said it's hard for people to comprehend
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: just how cryptic they are and therefore how many are
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: out there for everyone you catch. As for panthers, he says, yes, yeah,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: they hammer white tails. They did. We reported on this
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: in the past, but I'm going to re talk about it.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: As for you folks in Florida who think that your
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: deer hunting has gone shit due to panther recovery, if
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: that is your if that is how you weight values, okay,
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: if that is how you weight values, you are like
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: if we look at just the isolate the question our
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: this is that this is not that you that this
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: has nothing to do with loving panthers, hating panthers whatever,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: Just like like an objective reality is panthers hammer white tails. Okay.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: They did some work. They did some known fate survival data,
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: meaning they put two and forty one collars out on
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: adult deer in the Florida Panther National Wildlife Refuge in
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: Big Cyprus National Preserve in Florida from twenty twenty fifteen
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: to twenty eighteen. They put collars on two hundred and
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: forty one white tail deer, one hundred and fifty six
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: females eighty five males. No follow along here. Okay. They
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: then wait for there to be a mortality signal on
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: the deer, and they immediately go out and investigate what
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: happened to the deer. They had one hundred and thirty
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: four mortalities. Now, Sandy, take a guess. One hundred and
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: thirty four mortalities. Take a guess at what number of
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: those were killed by panthers? Do a lower one. I
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: want I give you the answer. I wanted to be
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: more astounded. I hate when people do that. Man, obviously
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: that's my kids. Guess how much money I found million? No,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: out of seven dollars, forget that part, edit that out, Phil, Okay,
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: out of one hundred and thirty four mortalities, one hundred
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: and ten were predation. Now, people that go and say like, oh, hunters,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: get them all, not even listen to this. Predators, non
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: human predators. I always like to point out that, like
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: human predators are predators. Non human predators killed one hundred
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: and ten out of one hundred and thirty four, eighty
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: seven percent of that one hundred and ten were panthers. Okay,
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: he says, a much greater rate than reported by studies
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: conducted before the panther genetic restoration effort, which was initiated
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety five. One deer okay, one hundred and
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: thirty four mortalities. When we originally talked about this study,
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: we originally talked about God's a long time ago. We
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: talked about the study because we talked about the state
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: of Florida trying to say to hunters, if you see
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: a deer or the collar, don't shoot it because it
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: has a collar, and don't not shoot it because it
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: has a collar. Try to act normal because they're trying
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: to find out what kills deer. So if you're like,
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: oh my god, it's got a collar, shoot it, you're
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: messing up the study. And if you say, like, if
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: you're like me and you said, I'm not gonna shoot
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: a deer with a collar because that means another person
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: has touched it and it's soiled. I want to be
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: the first person to touch it, you're messing up the study.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: So if people were true to that and really just
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: shot deer, if they would have shot it, one hundred
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: and thirty four deer out on the landscape with collars.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: One was killed legally by a hunter, two were killed
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: by poachers just gives you an insane like like, who
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: is killing deer in Florida? It ain't people. And of
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: the three killed by people, two of a poachers. It's
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: it's very like isolated. It's it's it's it's like, uh,
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: it's borderline, and it's beyond anecdotal. It's not anecdotal conclusive.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: It's just like, holy cow. So when you're in Florida,
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: like I just was two weeks talking to people, and
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: everyone you meet says the deer hunting went to ship
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: because the panthers and everyone I talked to, I'm like, oh,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: there's gotta be more to the story. I can't really
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: you know, damn.
• 44:33
  Speaker 6: Mm hmm hmm.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: You bought all that cal ann.
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: I mean, the the idea that people won't think that
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: agencies have to know, right, like, oh, you know how
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: many panthers are out there? You know how many pythons
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: are out there. It's just it's nonsensical.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Most people told me, I know, oh, but they don't.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: It was mostly I know, if you want to know,
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: ask me, don't ask them. Yeah.
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So like the python bowl that Florida kind of promotes.
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: I was talking to a biologist down there and he's like, yeah,
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: you know where every single python is caught. It's on
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: this two mile stretch of road that kicks off into
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: like big Cypress.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Yep, I was on that road.
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: He's like, you know why they're not caught anywhere else
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: because there's no roads. He's like, but do you really
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: think that that's where all the pythons are is on
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: that road?
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah? You know.
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: He's like, everything else is so miserable to go through
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: for most of the year, if not all of the year.
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: He's like, people just don't go in there. He takes
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: a very special person who likes to suffer from the
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: bugs and the heat and the humidity and the things
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: that sting and stick yet to go in there and
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: look for something. He's like, a lot of times when
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: we have tagged pythons, we'll be standing right on top
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: of the signal and it can take a frustration eatingly
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: long time to find the snake that you're literally standing
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: on that you have a beacon attached to, because they
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: that's what they do.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Did you ever see the picture of the python eating
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: the deer, which is amazing. I mean the deer was
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: I think bigger than the python.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: That was a crazy photo.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: It was really amazing.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: And there's that python ada gator and then gator clawed
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: its way back out and killed it.
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: Oh I love that. That's great.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: And when he got back, when he got back to
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: his friends, like where you been, Like, don't even get
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: me start.
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: Don't take a nap.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: Let's start there on a recent episode. Now we're getting
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: into our guest subject expertise. But do you remember your
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: your Do you remember writing about your antipodies? Oh?
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, it was like the second piece I did.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: Somehow we were talking about digging down. I don't know
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: how this even came up.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: You were talking about No, you were talking about animals
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: found at the same latitude all the way around the
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: circumpolar circumpolar like polar bears, and there's others.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: The blue muscle. Okay, there's a bunch of species globally
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: that have what's called circumpolar distribution, meaning you take a
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: latitude band, like the blue muscle is one. I know,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: I don't know what the hell the latitude band is.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: But you take this latitude band and you can wrap
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: that latitude band around the entire globe and they're always present.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: Polar bears have circumpolar distribution, but it's like the top
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: of the ball, so it's zero to I don't know,
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: above the Arctic. Yeah, like a very narrow band. It'd
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: be like the top of it. It'd be like if
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: if you were ahead, if you imagine the Earth is
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: the head and the polar bears distribution as a really
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: small yamica, that's like, yeah, that's him and other species
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: have different bands and that I don't know why that
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: got me talking about that got to be talked about
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: the concept of the It's not a concept the term
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: antipities antipoties, right, And I'm familiar with the antipodies because
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: of the writing of our guest today, Ian Fraser, And
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: I was saying that I think that you were saying
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: that where you grew up in Ohio.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is where you made your mistake, Okay, go on.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: The thing is I had just started at the New
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: Yorker magazine. I was writing for the Talk of the Town,
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: and I got this idea, what is on the other
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: side of the world from Manhattan, Oh, because I was
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: doing it for that magazine, and so it's not that different.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's four hundred miles different in
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: the Indian Ocean from Ohio the antipodies of like Cleveland, Ohio,
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: or the antipodies of Manhattan. But yeah, it was just
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: that if you drilled straight down through you would come
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: out in this really unfrequented part of the world. And
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: it's it's like one hundred yards or something deep in
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: this stuff called and you were talking about it like
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: some kind of muck. It's called Glaba Jurina ooze O
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: I at for the studio, and it's I would like
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: a jar of it, to be honest. And they it's
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: the like calcium residue from these tiny single you know,
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: very very small uh, sea creatures that have shells and
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: when they die, their shells fall to the bottom and
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: they become this ooze. But so that's the antipody story,
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: and it is in the Indian Ocean. But what But
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: in your piece, weren't you talking about towns in America? Yes, yeah,
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: because that was how it first came to me. Because Canton, Ohio,
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: I had heard, was named after Canton, China.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: And then there's Peak in Illinois, which supposedly is named
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: after Peaking as it was called them.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: But not because that was their antipodies.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: I think maybe they thought it was their antipathy.
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: You want to know what, uh, the antipity of this
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: place is right here we're sitting in.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: How do you know? Can you just look it up now? Sure?
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's Geode geodatos dot net. You can just type
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: in search for your antipody.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: Really, God, the ruined everything.
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: France in the southern French southern territories, an island like
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: south of Africa.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: South. That's where we'd come out if we drill the
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: hole straight down.
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: That's what it says.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: All right, here's my next question. We don't need to
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: spend much more time on the antipodies I have. You
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: wouldn't believe how often your writing has been discussed on
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: this show. I've talked a lot about I'm gonna remind
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: you of something you wrote that I want you to
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: tell the broader story. Okay, you were profiling I talked
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: with this. You were profiling a steelhead guide.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: I don't remember his name, but I remember it hit.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: People would jokingly call him Melanoma Joe. Yeah, he guided
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: in h board shorts. I'm gonna like, let's go, there's
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: a spoiler alert here, and then I want you to
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: talk a little bit about this. Unbeknownst to you while
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: you're profiling him, he's contemplating suicide. And you're on a
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: river trip with him, right, and one night you're like,
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: you get up to take a leak or something, right,
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: And you didn't know what to make of it at
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: the times. You didn't know what you would later know.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: But you see him down at the river's edge in
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: the dark at night, staring into the river, and you
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: made some comment in your peace of reporting, you made
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: some comment about you were getting sort of a preview
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: right of him as.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: A ghost, right right, Yeah, it was like seeing a ghost.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: I mean I got up out of the tent and uh,
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: he's standing there. And there was no reason for it.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, it was way late. It was on the
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: Dashoots River, nobody around, you know, for miles and miles
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: and I and I see him standing there and I
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: couldn't even believe it wasn't it couldn't even be. I
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: thought it wasn't him, and I just looked and I
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: kept looking at him, and it was like he then
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: kind of came back into focus and saw me. And
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: he said something like when you get old, you got
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: to get up and pee all the time, right, And
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: you know, he made some kind of nice comment like that,
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: just a friendly comment, and it was like it was
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: normal again. But then I got back in my sleeping
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: bag and I thought, what was he doing out there?
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: That was I mean, that was just weird that he
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: was standing there. I then wrote the piece again, this
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: was for Outside magazine. I wrote the piece. They sent
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: a photographer. They took all the photos they needed for
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: the piece.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: But what was the when you pitched a profile of
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: a steelhead guide?
• 52:51
  Speaker 7: Like?
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: What were you? Why were you interested in the guy?
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: Because he was unbelievably good and he was really like
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: I had gone to he Guided out of Sisters, Oregon,
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: and I went to that guide shop and I said,
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: I want to, you know, fish with this guy, and
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: they said, you will never get a reservation. You know,
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: this guy's booked up for five years. And then that
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: made me think, well, this guy must be really good.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: And then a guy I know, a good writer named
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: Ade Streep, fished with him and said, yeah, he's as
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: good as you know. He's really great. You should do
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: something about him.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: And so I then persisted and then I finally did.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: But that was it actually came by.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: Way of outside got it because they had heard about
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: this guy too, So so then you know, I did
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: set up this trip and it was like through three
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: four day river trip and that you know, we caught
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: finally we did catch steel It, and then they took
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: these pictures. I signed off on the piece, was ready
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: to go, and then he committed suicide, and so I
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: went back.
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: I can't remember how did he kill He kills if
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: had a bolt launch, didn't he.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: No, he killed himself in his car. And I went
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: to the place where he killed himself. And I mean,
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: there are lonesome places out here, but that was one
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: of the most lonesome. I mean in Oregon. Around there,
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: it was a place where people had shot skeet and
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: there were shotgun shells all over the place. It was
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: just like this open patch out in the forest. And
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: he had just parked there, and he had he had
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: made a few little signs in the bushes around there.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: He had like left a pack of cigarettes in a bush,
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: in the crotch of a branch in a bush. It
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: was just it was a spooky thing and it was
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: really sad, and I felt really bad for the guy
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: because he was a brilliant guy.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: He was a great guy. Did he shoot himself? No,
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: He hooked up a hose from the from the fly
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: shout and do you remember that?
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, tale, that's a great detail.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: He took a hose that the fly shop had used
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: just I think maybe just to worsh down its parking
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: lot or something, and he used that hose to hook
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: the exhaust up to his window.
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: And the fly shop is where he was booking all
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: of it. So he kind of had this slow descent
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: as far as from reputability, right right, So he had
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: gotten crossways with with this fly shop for you know
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: a number of I'm sure what, well, he very normal reason.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: One thing that happened to him was he was guiding
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: clients that this fly shop really liked, and while he
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: was guiding, his truck was repossessed.
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: So suddenly gets there and his truck is gone.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: It's been repossessed. And the guy and the people he
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: was guiding apparently didn't mind. They thought it was kind
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: of interesting.
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: But your so o, l if you're a guide without
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: a truck.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he really really need to have the truck. But
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: so then I then went back and reported the re
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: reported the whole thing, and and rewrote the piece.
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: And yeah, it's the Last Days of Steelhead.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: Joe.
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: You can still read it outside online.
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: What are some of the things you found What are
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: some things you found out and looked at differently after
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: you went back and worked on it more.
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: Well, these conversations I'd had with him, like that moment
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: when he was standing out there, I mean it was
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: a brief exchange, but that fell into place because the
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: guy was really thinking, you know, well, I mean I
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: don't know exactly what he was thinking, but but it
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: looked like he might have done it maybe even at
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: that point or something. I don't know what he was thinking,
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: but just that he was a really he was somebody
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: like and you must have this happen in what you do,
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: where you will become extremely close to somebody that you
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: see only for a few days. Yeah, you know, like
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: that happens when you're writing, Like you'll find out about somebody,
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: you'll get really very sympathetic with them. And also or
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: he maybe conflicted about it.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, Joe was.
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: He really was not well prepared. You know, he had
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: one spae rod on this trip, you know, and he
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: wouldn't let me bring my fly rod. He said, you're
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: gonna spay cast or nothing, And I had never spay
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: cast before. And do you know how to spay cast?
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Does that?
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: Do you?
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: You?
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: Mus?
• 57:21
  Speaker 4: Yes? Yeah, I'm I'm uh.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: These guys are both fishing guys.
• 57:25
  Speaker 4: Cat catch fish at all cost type of guys. So
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: the spey rod doesn't see a whole lot of light
• 57:30
  Speaker 4: these days.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: But well it's really I did learn it and he
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: taught it to me, and that was that was amazing.
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, his empathy and his ability to to like
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: and and not to make you feel bad.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: He was like if you have a history with coaches
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: where coaches will tell you stuff and then you got
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: off on the wrong foot with a coach and you
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: just don't like to be told stuff anymore. He was
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: very able to get past that, and he was just
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: a kind and good man. But he was really depressive.
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: And he was a descendant. He was a direct descendant
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: of Thomas Jefferson for real. Yep, you checked it out.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: It was checked out. Yeah, outside would have checked that out.
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: His last name was Randolph, and the randolphs. I think
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: Jefferson's daughter married a Randolph, so that I mean the
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: Randolph is an old name from Virginia. So he.
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: How this.
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: There's so many parts of his story that are so
• 58:30
  Speaker 4: applicable to conversations, got certain guides in shops for anybody
• 58:39
  Speaker 4: who's ever done that or attempted to do that as
• 58:42
  Speaker 4: a living. So I just I really found it crazy
• 58:47
  Speaker 4: how you found him, because there's bits and pieces of
• 58:52
  Speaker 4: his story that are hard to find in one person,
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: but they're easily found in every circle in America. So
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: he's a former athlete, wasn't a born and bred steelhead person,
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: came out, learned it, acquires this huge client list you know,
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: that are specifically requesting him, which is like a benchmark
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: in the guide world. He hits this other super unattainable
• 59:25
  Speaker 4: benchmark in the guiding world, which is he finds a
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: super wealthy, very attractive client and marries her. Right, that's
• 59:34
  Speaker 4: like a dream thing for guides.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: That that's what keeps you guys going in the morning.
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: There's always that chance.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: It's a very common theme is really oh yeah, man,
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: I'm happens or the guides wanted to happen.
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: I know one instance where it happened.
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: It's a story like it is, like I said, It's
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: a story that is applicable in every guide circle in
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: probably the world. But to find it all wrapped up
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 4: in one person is like amazing.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: I had done a profile of another guide who guides
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: out of stat Are. Yeah, he guides out of Staten
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: Island and I fish. I haven't fished with him for
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: a while, but we fish right in New York Harver
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: sometimes and then we fish all along down the Jersey
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: shore places that Bruce Springsteen has sung about and for
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: bluefish and stripers. And I had already done that some
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: years before, so I had already done a guide profile.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: But the thing is I as a kid, I fished
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: by myself, and I was very much brought up fishing
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: by myself. Effect I have fished from when I was
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: a kid and did not need a license until I
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: am an old man and do not need a license.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: That's awesome.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: And I came up as somebody fishing by himself, and
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: when I had to fish with guides, it was a
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: big adjustment because I didn't like because I was just
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: old old or too old to go, you know. And
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: plus plays like the to Shoots you have to have
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: a guide basically. But but so I became very when
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: I found a guide I really liked. It was a
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: big It was a big deal.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 4: But what what if I got to finish the Okay,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 4: But this is a rise and fall story, so it
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 4: also includes all these little bits and pieces again found
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 4: that are ubiquitous in the guide community.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 4: So he's at the top of his game, and then
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 4: he starts starts losing and in ways that are again
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 4: very relatable in all the guide circles. Divorce, money, mismanagement,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 4: crossways with his guide shops, right, starts taking some illegal
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 4: trips on the side. I think was part of it too.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the thing that is a familiar story
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: to you, absolutely to anybody who guides.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: He had a license to guide through the guide shop,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: through the tackle shop, and when they fired him, he
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: did not have a guide.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: He did not have a license to guide.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: And so then he got a license to do float trips,
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: but that wasn't the same, and so he was actually
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: guiding with a float trip license, got it, and that
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: was you know, and he got caught doing that and
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: he was going to be going to trial and he
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: would have lost his ability to guide in Oregon for
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: five years.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: Or something like that.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: So he was really up against it.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: So when you did your trip, was he I think
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 4: he was fishing guide?
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: Uh no, wait a minute, Yes, I think he still
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: was when we did our trip because I booked that
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: through that shop. So yeah, I think he still want
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: to me.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 4: The like the whole picture was like, this is like
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 4: an under the table trip. It just had the feel
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 4: of that to me because.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: He can't do that a writer, because you're going to
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: get busted.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 4: He didn't think he cared.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: Oh he didn't tell me. I don't think I had
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: no inkling of that at the time.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: If you booked it through a shot, it wasn't it
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: wasn't under the table.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure it was before he got fired. I mean,
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: probably the people from the shop are listening and they'll
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: they'll clear this up.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: But that's why all those points made it just like
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 4: so's exiting thing that happens.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: Well, I feel like there should be somebody who specializes
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: in mental health of guides because it is an enormously
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: difficult profession and and it's I mean, I sympathize with
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: it because I'm a freelance writer and it's just up
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: and down and are you going to get paid or
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: you know what, how how is it going to go?
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 4: And also you know the emotional cost of finding ways
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 4: to connect with every right, you got a new client
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: every day, rightly, right, and you got to make those
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 4: connections in order to have just good basic communications.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: And the beauty of having the same clients year after year.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: You don't got it like you figure them out after
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: a couple of years of gutting the same people over
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 3: and over again.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, Brody got to where you didn't really
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: take new clients.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 4: No, no, which again is like one of those things
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 4: that people on the I'm up trying to get to.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: That's part of the narrative. Yeah, Yanni. One day, so
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: we have another colleague, Giannis, who also guided, and one
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: day he and I were sitting in we just come
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: out of McDonald's drive through here in town or no,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: I can't remember what the hell were you doing. Either way,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: Here's a guideboat drives by, like obviously a guideboat kid
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: pulling a you know, drift boat. And I said, oh, Yanni,
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: that probably brings back memories and makes you a little
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: jealous seeing that guy heading out And Yanni said, no,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: heading out fish the same damn river with some guy
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: you don't feel like talking to, not at all.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: But did you ever read ninety five in the Shade, Dwayne?
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: If I did, he's been on the show, though, has
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: he really?
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: But that is a really good book about guiding. I
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: mean it's a kind of almost a melodrama in a way,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: but it's a it's a wonderful book.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 4: I got back from Florida hanging out with a bunch
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 4: of uh South Florida fishing guides, uh huh. And it's
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 4: just it's so funny, like when I first read that
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 4: book with the the politics of guiding in a new
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 4: spot or guiding for new people.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 3: And especially in South Florida, man, like you don't mess
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: with other people, and.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 4: It's nonsensical to me, Like I was having this this
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 4: debate on like the how territorial people are and all
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 4: the things like it. It's just just wild. But yeah,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 4: they go ahead.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: That's I know guys down there that will not let
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: their clients like turn on their phone because they don't
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: want to mark in spots.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: Sure you know what I mean?
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and having that spot get out and then
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: another guide's there the next day. You know, it's like
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: it's cutthroat.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: When you were working on travels in Siberia. You want
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: to spend it a bunch of time with I don't
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: know what what what do you?
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: So I remember talking to you about this at the time.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: Like you spent some days out on hunting trips.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: I spent days with chuk Chi guy.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, tell about that experience. I went. You told a
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: really funny story to me about a seal hunting trip
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: you went on.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: I don't remember the funny part of it. Unfortunately, it
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: was funny to me, Okay, it was miserable for you.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: I went like like, yeah, layout like who who those
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: people are and.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: What you were doing there?
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: And well, I went to Nome a bunch of times
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: with the intention of flying over to Chakotka, which is
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: the part of the Russian Far East that is across
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: from Alaska. It's across the Bearing Strait, and Gnome has
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: really terrible weather. So I was up in Nome maybe
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: five times for every time I actually flew when the
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: Maybe not five, but it was a bunch of times,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: and finally I got to go over.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: I didn't do it. I gotta I mess something up
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: because I didn't. He set the book up a little
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: bit too. I mean like you essentially, I mean you
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: spent seven years working traveling there on and off, and essentially,
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: like you've you've learned Russian to work on the book.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: I learned some Russian.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: I didn't I didn't get real good at it, but yeah,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: I learned some Russian. I drove with two guides, not
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: angling guides, obviously, from Saint Petersburg to Vladivostar, and that
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: trip was like fifteen thousand kilometers. We took side trips
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: and stuff like that, but that was sort of the
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: center part of the book was that across country trip.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: But I also took other smaller trips. And one of
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: the smaller trips that I took was from Alaska to Chikotka.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: I need to throw in one more tidbit before you go.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: I know I told you to go, but now I'm
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: wish i'd done it in different orders. Two really funny things.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, the book is good, place is heart wrenching,
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: but there's two parts, probably more funny parts in the book.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: But you observe one day that you observe a car
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: coming down the road and it's towing another car. Yeah,
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: and instead of and what they're using for a toastrap?
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: Is a safety belt a seat belt? And you had
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: the line and you said, and all the time I
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: spent in Russia, that was the only time I ever
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: saw a seat belt used for anything? When was this?
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 3: Was this after the wall came down?
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: Or yeah?
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: I drove across Siberia in two thousand and one, Oh okay,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: and I got to the Pacific after seven weeks of
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: travel on September eleventh, two thousand and one.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: Oh okay.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: So I'm there and I have a I had a
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: satellite phone, and I have a message, just a text
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: message from my wife saying we are okay. And I
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: hadn't heard anything about it. I didn't know anything about it,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: so then I found out. But just to go back
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: to talking about those because I remember telling you about this,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: and you're being fascinated by these guys. They were the
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: best hunters I had ever seen, these chuck Chi guys,
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: and I had hunted with.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: You by that time. But are they so? They are
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: they have to like linguistically related to the Inuit cultures
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: in the far north right.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: It's I mean linguistically they are connected. Some people in
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: that part of Russia have relatives like on Saint Lawrence Island.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: And if you saw, if you remember from the news,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: not that long ago they started Russia started going out
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: and recruiting soldiers in these really far flung villages because
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: they didn't want to be recruiting in Petersburg and Moscow
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: and getting people all upset. And so they went out
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: and all these people, these you know, who were living
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: out in the far parts of Russia, they were feeling
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: the pressure of recruiting. And these two guys took a
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: little aluminum boat and went from Chakoka, I think, to
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: Saint Lawrence Island and then to Alaska. But they got
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: out of it by just going across the strait. And
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: that happens. I mean, people do cross the strait sometimes
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: they come from Chakoka to Saint Lawrence Island just to
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: see relatives.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: They do that in the summer.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: And so I was up there and we just went
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: out to a salmon camp, which is a really cool
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: place where you just hang around your nets, fill up
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: with salmon, you pull in the salmon.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: You know, but not commercial is commercial Native people who
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: can do that.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: I guess they have special permission to do it, but
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: they take a lot of salmon, and they put them
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: in big tubs and salt them down. And the main
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: thing that they need is salt, and the salt back
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: then was coming from the US. But all the stuff
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: that they had they had Evan rude motors, you know,
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: they had American rifles, they had American nets, you know.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: I mean that was where they got their supplies. But
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: they they build little cairns of rocks on places where
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: a seal is likely to be swimming around, and they
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: just sit there for a really long time with their
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: guns propped on these cairns, and they wait for a
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: seal to pop up, and they shoot the seal in
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: the head. That's the part that you can see. And
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: I was in a boat with a guy who hit
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: a seal in the head with no scope. I mean,
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: it's just you know what is it just open sites
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: or god? And it was just phenomenal shot at some
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: distance and the water is really blue and it's extremely.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: Cold, so you don't want to fall out of the boat.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: You're gonna die. But just to see that seal hit
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: and then this big plume of blood in that blue water,
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: and he brought the seal in and butchered it. Out
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: and his wife made the seal liver with angel hair pasta,
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: and it was excellent. It was an excellent dinner.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: Uh did uh. This is another funny thing you talk
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: about that I don't know if you ever figured it out.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: This actually is funny. Where when when you told me
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: the story about when I said it was a funny
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: story about the day you went is you really wanted
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: You were out and you were talking about how bad
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: you wanted to go home. Oh yeah, and you're molting
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: along in a boat and you talked about all of
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: a sudden, this duck flies overhead and spins around and
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: lands in some bay, and all you wanted to do
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: is get back. And you saw him all watch that duck,
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: and you're like, please, no, please, no please. And also
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: he said that boat turns. It was.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, really it was an eider duck and
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: eider down is real valuable.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: So I was like, you're like headed back, but you're like.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: They would stay out all day and and they and
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: they spoke good Russian. I mean they chukchi, but they
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: spoke Russian. And they had been educated in Petersburg. The
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: guy had been head of his reindeer brigade. Under communism,
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: you know, they had like different reindeer collectives, and so
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: he was really well educated. He knew a lot of
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: poetry by heart, and you know, but he was he
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: was like America, and he was like an American native guy.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: And at that time, the native people there that I
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: saw were doing better than the Russian Russians because they
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: just had stopped for a long period there, had stopped
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: doing trips to Russia, you know, they had stopped to
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: the Far East, they had stopped supplying those really remote cities.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: So all I could have bought an apartment there for
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: a thousand bucks, a beautiful duplex in Providenia, Russia.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: Really. Yeah, what I was saying about a funny thing,
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: A funny story you do tell in that book is
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: you're camping somewhere alongside of a road and you're in
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: your tent and you and you wake up at night
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: there's a bunch of drunk guys of somehow like also
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: pulled out at the turnout. You're like, can't the turnout right?
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: And you know enough Russian to know that they're debating
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: doing something to your tent, but you don't recognize that.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: But you didn't recognize the verb.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: The noun is palatka, and theyre and and the accusative
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: that is it was obviously in the accusative case in
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: the So they were saying, you know, what are we
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: going to do to the palatka? This I could keep hearing,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: and when guys saying, don't do anything to it, kind
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: of that, don't come on, We're just gonna do blah
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: blah blah, and I assumed they were going to tear
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: it down and just leave me lying there and sleeping.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: And my guides, of course, were gone, because my guides
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: managed to meet women all the way across the Russian Federation,
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: and they would they would disappear in the evening and
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: I'd just be there and there'd be drunks driving around,
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: and I would go to sleep, and they would bring
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: women for me to meet, and they would say, oh,
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: we told them that we had an American and she's
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: an elementary school teacher. And I would get out, I'd
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: be in my pajamas, I'd talk briefly, and I would
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: go back to bed.
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't drink in Russia, and I didn't
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: do anything else like that, Because are you totally not
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: drinking right now?
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't had a drink at sixteen years.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: I remember when you were quitting drinking. Yeah, I remember
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: you telling me you're sick of the hangovers. I was
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: sick of the hangovers, and I was just it was
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: just I drunk enough. I was tired of it and
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: never got back into it, never got back in. No
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: do you feel like an urge or no? No anymore?
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: Do you drink na stuff? I do?
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: And I get made people make fun of me for it. Sure,
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: I mean ordering a non alcoholic beer in Russia's like, ah,
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: like you have to be in see you know? So
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: uh yeah, but it was I mean I felt I
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: needed my wits about me there, so I didn't. I
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: didn't drink. And people had told me. My Russian friends
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: had said, you know, oh you'll be killed. They'll you know,
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: this is a terrible idea, and I think it was
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: less dangerous than they had made it out to be.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: But I didn't really.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: I was blind with kind of romantic notions of what
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: Russia was like and what Siberia was like, So I didn't,
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: you know, like the recent thing that has happened, I mean,
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: the invasion, It was just to me, I thought Putin
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: was just funny. You know, he's not just funny. He's
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: not funny, but I thought he was funny. I mean,
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: you can go online find him singing. I found my
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: thrill on Blueberry Hill.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: Fishing big old yellow perch and no shirt on fishing
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: northern and northerns.
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: He's into northerns.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you and Bible to do that book?
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: Now, man, No, I mean I might be able to
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: go there, but I don't think I would. Who knows
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: getting back, getting out? I don't know.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't try it.
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 4: Now, it does sound like a lot of that romanticism
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 4: did line up for you though, once you made it
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 4: out there.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean I.
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: Went to places that a famous traveler from my family's
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: town where my family lived in Ohio, Norwalk, Ohio, this
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: guy named George Kennon went there in the eighteen eighties.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: After the assassination of the Tzar in eighteen eighty one,
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: there were all these people shipped to Siberia in order
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: for this clamp down to be effective, and it wasn't
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: really effective, but they shipped a lot of people there,
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: and George Kennan went there to see how those people
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: were doing that had been exiled, and the Tsars were
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: disorganized and liberal or whatever enough that they did still
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: permit that kind of travel. But Kennon had a minder,
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: some kind of police minder with him a lot of
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: the time. But he actually, I think maybe he was
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: pretty much on his own because they they liked Kennon
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: and he did this amazing book about Siberia called Siberia
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: and the Prison Exile System, which Anton Chekhov read and
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: made his own trip. So this guy from Ohio inspired
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: one of the greatest writers of all time, Anton Chekhov,
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: to go to Sakalen Island, So, which is I think
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: south of Kamchaka, but it's another island.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: Like that. Were we recording when I said something about
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: don't make don't make Stalin jokes or was that pre recording?
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know, Hey, if I know, Phil, we were
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: recording earlier. I made a comment and you looked, you
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: looked when I said that that you had that. There
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: was a part of the book where you argue about
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: that Stalin, like how people make Stalin references. And you
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: get into the towards the end of your book Travels
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: in Siberia, you get into the Gulag system, right, just
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: all the I mean, I don't know if you still
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: remember some of the staffs. I mean, just like the
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: horrible atrocities.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: It was a horrible Yeah, they were death cams. I
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: mean they there were people that there were degrees of horribleness.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: But the people that mined gold in Magadan, you know,
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: I mean Russia, nobody was honoring anything. Russia had to
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: buy stuff with gold because they had already defaulted on
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: their debts when the Soviets took over, and the gold
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: mining operation in Magadan was a murderous thing.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah. I mean millions of people killed.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean from the beginning of the Russian from
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 2: the Russian Revolution through like the end of the Soviet Union.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: I mean people estimate sixty million or seventy million. That
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: includes you know, like what we lost four hundred and
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: seventy five thousand people in World War Two, which is
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: a real serious thing. If you think about, like in
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: terms of now what our population is, that would be
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: a serious.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: The US lost that the US lost that for reference,
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: fifty seven thousand in Vietnam, right and.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: Right, four hundred and seventy I think it was like
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: four hundred and seventy five thousand in the Second World War,
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: it was under I believe under five hundred thousand. The
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: Russians lost twenty million in that war, so that when
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: I would say to Russians, well, we helped you, you know,
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: like we held their coats while they fought the Nazis,
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: you know, like I mean, they don't think. They don't
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: take it seriously. Even though we did supply a lot
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 2: of their air force.
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: A lot of their air force.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: Was made in Detroit and then shipped up here to
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: Helena where they painted the Soviet markings on the planes
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: and then flown up to Alaska and pilots from Alaska
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: would fly it over to the Russian pilots who would
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: pick it up on the other side and fly it
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: back to the to the Western Front. So we did participate,
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: hate very much in helping them, but they don't.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: They didn't. The people I talked to were very unimpressed
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: by that. Uh, there's a piece you wrote. I don't
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: know you wrote this long time ago, but I've always
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: loved it. Is Uh, you were living up in did
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: you live You live in big Fork, Montana. Yeah, And
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: when you were living in big Fork, Montana, you liked
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: you liked the amount of reporting in the local newspapers
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: that would occur about bears. Yeah, and you wrote a
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: piece of You wrote a piece of reporting about how
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: bears are reported on. Yeah. It was called bear News. Yeah,
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: and I remember in it you made the observation about
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: when a bear committed a senseless killing. Yeah, that grizzly
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: committed a senseless killing over human. Did you ever read
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: that book Night of the Grizzlies. Oh? Yeah, that was
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: the same guy that wrote Give a Boy a Gun
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: about Claude Dallas. Right. I know his name is Olsen
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: and he wrote sports jack Olson, Jack Olsen. Yeah, yeah
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: he did. I think Jack Olsen, I'm not I'm not familiar.
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: So do you remember the story well enough to tell
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: me it's to night? Well you may remember it better.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: But two bears after they're not having been any bear
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: attacks for years, on the same night, in very different,
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 2: widely separated parts of the park, uh killed a camper,
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: Each bear killed a camp.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: Two bears killed two women and no one had been
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: killed by a bear park and having the same damn night.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: Right, it was this, Yeah, it was a very It's
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: My wife and I were married in Big four and
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: we gave that book as a gift to our wedding guests,
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: and we didn't really we just been thinking, Wow, this
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 2: is a good book, and we didn't think it was
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: kind of under productive in terms of Montana tourism.
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 5: But but.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 4: The Todd Strasser is your give a boy a gun.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, Jack Olsen didn't write a book about Claude Dallas. Nothing,
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: I'm ce in here.
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 4: But uh, tourism plays heavily in wildlife news in the
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 4: Greater Glacier National Park white fish tourist ecosystem up there.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 4: So yes, the bear news is a is a real thing,
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 4: and there's a lot of suppressed news from a lot
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 4: of a lot of folks inside the park, as I
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 4: understand it.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: So walk me through that part of your life when
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: you So you came to Big Fork and how did
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: you get going on the idea that you would write
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: a book about the American Great planes and travel all
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: over the Great Plains and live in a van.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I came to I left New York City and
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: moved out, and I didn't know anybody in Montana. I
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: didn't know one person, and I moved up to near Kallispell.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: For what reason, I just wanted to change everything.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: When was this.
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: That was like nineteen eighty two, and so I just
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: made a huge change and I just moved out. And
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: I wanted to I wanted to just do something bigger,
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: and I didn't know quite what to do. I was
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 2: writing short pieces, and they're very addictive short pieces, because
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: you know, you get an idea, you do it, you
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: get paid, You then get another idea, you do it.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: And so I wanted to try to do something bigger.
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: So I moved Never like at that time, you were
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: focused pretty much. I mean you were focused on humor pieces.
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: I wrote a lot of humor pieces back then, and
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: also I wrote for the Talk of the Town of
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: the New Yorker, and I had done a few long pieces.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: I did a profile of a guy who had a
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: tackle shop in New York City, and that guy was
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: an old time colleague of Dan Bailey of you know Missoid.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: Bailey's Dan Bailey is that living Ston or Missoula?
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: That's Livingstone, right, Okay? Yeah, And and so that guy
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 2: was coming out here a lot, The guy that had
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: that tackle shop would come out here and fish. And
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: so he had told me a bunch of stuff about
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: places to go. So I just came out here. The
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: reason I went up to Big Fok, I'm not even sure.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: I kind of just liked it up there, and it
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: seemed like there were too many writers down.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 3: Did people think you were doing a living was filled up?
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: Did you did people think you were doing a bad
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: like a career mistake to leave the city?
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: Mystified people, mystified people. The editor of the New Yorker,
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: William Shawn, was this genius editor, and he was this phobic,
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: you know, he was afraid of a lot of different things.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: And I told him I was moving to Northwest Montana,
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: and he said, uh, do they have stores there? And
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: I said something like, well, it might be kind of
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 2: hard to buy, specially items for me. I and and
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: I realized he meant, can you get food there?
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: I mean it was this.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: He was from Chicago. He should have known a little bit,
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: but it was seen as an eccentric thing to do.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: And I came out and I tried to write a novel,
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: and uh uh it was not a good novel.
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: And then when I when, then, do you care sharing
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: with novels about the novel? I wrote a good bit
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: of it.
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 2: The novel was about my town in Ohio and when
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: the town, which is a suburban, mostly white town, and
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 2: when the town decided to have or when the school
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: that I went to, which was a private school, decided
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: to expand its student body and bring in black students
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: from Cleveland, and that kind of cultural moment, which was interesting,
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: and uh, you know, it was very revealing of what
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: my town was like. You know, you don't even know
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: that you're in a mono culture, you know, when you're
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 2: in some small towns in the Midwest. I mean, ah,
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: most small towns. But anyway, it was about that, and
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: it just did the I don't have the fiction gift,
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: I'm afraid.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: So what is your You mentioned Big Four because there
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: weren't what you've mentioned A lot of places like you're
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: you don't like to live by writers. I like to
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 1: just one time wrote off to me. You dismissed the
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 1: whole state of Maine, which I take ship for today
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: because it was a foolish thing to do. I know
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: you were you were like, I can't go to Maine.
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 1: I know writers there.
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 3: I'm going to ask you if you if you brush
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 3: shoulders with any montete like mcguaine. I never I never
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 3: did because you didn't want to be around them.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I will go public on record that
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 2: I admired Tom mcguain beyond anything. I mean, I find
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: so many things that I'm thinking are things that mcgwaine wrote,
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: or just ways of putting things.
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: And I know all his work.
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 2: And I used to be able to recite Rancho Deluxe,
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: like word for word. I would go into a bar
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: and say I could tell you the entire movie Rancho Deluxe,
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 2: and people would bet me that I couldn't, and they
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: would give up after about maybe seven minutes.
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 4: You're like, I need seventy nine minutes.
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: You know. We we went and we didn't really use
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: it for anything, but we went and set up that
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: exact at Chico Hotsprings. Oh yeah, that's we wouldn't set
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: up that exact scene one day, like everybody's sitting in
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: the place cowboy hats. We had fur hats on. But yeah, yeah.
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: But but so, you know, I kind of felt that
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 2: that that part of my Tanna was already pretty pretty crowded.
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: And I didn't know much about Big Fork. I didn't
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: know anything about it, and uh, well.
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 4: That is Edward Abbey wrote, Out of the North Fork
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 4: there spitting distance from Big Fork.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that I didn't know about it.
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: That's gone. Well. The thing is, if you know where
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: every writer has been, you'll end up going nowhere because
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: exactly exactly, but they do get around.
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: But then when that novel kind of didn't work out
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: in a big way, uh, I called up, uh, mister Seawan,
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: the New York editor, and I said, because I had
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: driven around out there just for fun. Yeah, I would
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: just go over the divide and go out and just
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: drive all the way like to Williston or you know,
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: uh a lot in Montana. And I had taken my
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: friend Jamaicican Caid out there and that was really fun
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: because she's West Indian and had never really seen the
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: American West. And we would go into places and you know,
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: she's taller than I am, and I'm not that tall,
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: but she's like an inch or so taller and.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: And people would just wow, you know, because that was.
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: Uncommon then to see like a black woman in a
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 2: in like cutback Montana, you know. And so why had
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: had a lot of interesting things, you know, driving around,
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 2: And I told when this novel didn't work out, I
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: decided I would do a book about the great planes
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: and I called up mister Shawn, and I said, I
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 2: want to write about the great Planes, and I would
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: do it as if I was profiling a person, you know,
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: like this is a place, but I would profile it
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: as a person. And I said, and I explained some
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 2: of the stuff that would be in it, you know,
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: and like the buffalo or you know, the battle of
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 2: the Little Big Horn or stuff like that. And Sean listened.
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 2: He didn't say anything. And then when I had finished
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: my explanation, he said, what is be funny?
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't know.
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 2: Maybe fifty million buffalo wiped out. I don't know, is
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: that funny? But so then I ended up doing it,
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: But that took me a long time. It took me
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: years and years to do, did it?
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: I drove around out there for summer summers. After summers,
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: I got married out there. I wouldn't have stayed if
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 2: I hadn't gotten married.
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 3: Did you fish flat Head Lake while you're living in
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 3: Big Port?
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah? I did.
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: It was cocainy.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: I didn't do very good. Have you fished it? Oh?
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 7: Yeah?
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 3: The cocaine are all gone now.
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 3: They're trying to eradicate the lake trout now too.
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 2: What are they What are you fishing for up there?
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 4: Then lake trout are trying to.
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 3: Eradicate because there's a native species of char called the
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 3: bull trout. Oh wow, they're trying. They're trying to lower
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 3: the lake trout population and bring bring the bull trout back.
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 4: And the cocony story up there, Like when you were there,
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 4: that was a huge tourism story too. They'd spawn all
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 4: the way up to McDonald Lake and then all the
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 4: you know, all the all the pretty animals would come in.
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 4: It was a great time for tourists. And the bull
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 4: trout would get real fat off coconey too. And then
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 4: there was a theory that because of the the water
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 4: part of the water column that the coconey occupied and
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 4: the part of the water column that lake trout if
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 4: they introduced them would occupy.
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: Well, keep back. I got confused.
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 4: This is a fisheries management introduction.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: All this was baked into the inn like it was
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 1: an intentional introduction. Yes, based on this assumption.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 4: Yes, I see. And then you have these miicy shrimp
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 4: that feed everything, and how they would come up with
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 4: the warmth of the day that all these species would
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 4: just magically like intermingle.
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: It was a choreographed dance exactly exactly like I said,
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: but no one was going to the dance.
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's just a fun aside for you. But anyway,
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 4: no more coconin and flathead.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 2: Well that was something where people would come up and
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 2: they'd bring their own like canneries. You know, they'd have
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: motor homes and they can you know, it was like
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: a unit of exchange among people, like cans of cocainey salmon,
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: and I mean it was a huge deal. But I
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 2: didn't know that they were no longer in the lake.
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 2: That's amazing, ye. And that up there where they would
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: spawn the eagles that were up there, and it was
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: just amazing birds, I mean snowy owls and stuff. It
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: was really incredible. I didn't see a snowy owl up there.
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: But tell folks about your the piece you wrote about
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: wild hogs. Yeah, I really.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 2: Enjoyed watching your wild hog episode. Yeah, I just I
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 2: did a piece about wild hogs because, uh, they really
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 2: are like there's no other animal really like them. You
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 2: know that every man's hand is against them, like their
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 2: places with no seasons, I think almost every place you
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 2: can hunt them all year round.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: Here's an interesting twist that this might have happened after
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: you wrote your piece about wild hogs. Is there an
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: interesting twists now where in order to prevent the spread
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: of wild hogs, they are banning the hunting of wild hogs.
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: And one might be like, well, it doesn't make any sense,
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: But what they have found is the spread of wild
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: hogs and a lot of places is facilitated by hog
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: hunters who bring hogs in. You're saying, because they're like, man,
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: we had such a good time hunting hogs down in
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: Texas that we brought a few home, right, and we're
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: gonna cut them loose in our neck of the woods
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: and then we'll be able to hunt hogs. And so Missouri, Arkansas,
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: other areas when they look at the spread, they were
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: looking and they're like, man, a leading spread vector is
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: aspiring hog hunters. Yeah. Yeah, so to make it that
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: you can't hunt hogs, just to get out ahead of it.
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: But yeah, there is no from the hunting world, any
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: conversation about humane treatment, any conversation about ethics, anything like that.
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: It goes out the window. Hogs r yeah, because they're
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: they're just a reviled right, I mean, you get into
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: it they're reviled and a hated critter man.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 2: But I think you know that makes the there's something
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 2: kind of holy about that, you know, like that you're
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: just a total outlaw, you know. I mean, And and
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 2: when you see the stuff they do, it's just incredible.
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 2: Like the way they will root or the way they
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 2: will they get up next to phone poles that have
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 2: been painted with creoso and they want to get that
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 2: creoso tar all over them, you know. And then you'll
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 2: see these things. They're just all tari and God.
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, they'll there's just.
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: The damage that they do. The you know, you'll find
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 2: these little items about how they tear up, the way
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: they tear up people's yards, and the way they tear
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 2: up you know, peanut fields, and it's just and the
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 2: only thing that's limiting them. I mean, we don't I think,
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 2: have them in New York State yet, or I don't
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 2: think we have them in New Jersey. But there's not
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: much that limits them. I mean, they can go anywhere
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 2: pretty much if there's got to be water.
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: I think, according to the USDA, is at thirty four states.
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 1: According to the USDA, I think I think it was
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: thirty nine when I did it. It was thirty four,
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: and I think it went up since then.
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 4: But I was working with the farmer in Arkansas earlier
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 4: this year and they started with traps on their farm
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 4: that would just be triggered by the pigs walking in,
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 4: and they kind of came to the conclusion that this
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 4: wasn't working well enough because they'd also have cameras set
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 4: up around the the traps and they'd see like one
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 4: pigould get caught and the fifteen others would squeal around
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 4: the thing and run away. So they custom built some
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 4: remotely operated traps, so now a pig can't set it
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 4: off by itself, but the camera goes on and you
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 4: can remotely trigger the trap. He told me they did
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 4: a family trip to the Bahamas one time and he
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 4: caught twenty pigs in a trap.
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 7: So the.
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the goal now is to get the whole sounder
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 4: of pigs in then remotely operate the trap. And they're
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 4: they're catching tons of pigs throughout the year. But it
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 4: is zero fun, there is no It is just more
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 4: work for this family and it takes like three four
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 4: hours to go in, dispatch all the pigs, remove the pigs,
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 4: clean everything up, and and it ends up just all
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 4: being gator food in the in the bayou, which is
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 4: a horrible way to meet that they recognize. But at
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 4: the same time they're like, and tomorrow or next week,
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 4: we'll do it all over again. It just doesn't stop.
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 4: But they're estimating their crop damage somewhere in the neighborhood
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 4: of three hundred thousand dollars annually.
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 4: And it's just he's like, there's a lot of people
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 4: who recreationally hunt pigs, like and because of that, we're
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 4: doing this like it and it does there's no end
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 4: in sight.
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a wild thing.
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 2: I talked to a guy from a organization that studies
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 2: wildlife disease vectors and he traps hogs and tests them,
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: and he said that he if he had hogs in
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: an enclosure, he said that, he said he was very
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 2: careful never to look over the enclosure down at the hogs.
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 2: And I said, why why don't you want to look
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 2: over And he said, because they'll jump up and bite
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 2: you in the face. So these are pretty fierce, fierce animals.
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, they're just they're so smart too, they're just
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 2: and they're so they're just so cynical. They have a
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 2: very cynical attitude. I think I saw a contest down
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 2: in Georgia where they were using hog you know, dogs
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 2: that ran pigs, and it was it was like a
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: rodeo where they had these to see which pigs could
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: dogs could beay a hog the fastest and stuff like that.
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: And the dogs are all wearing kevlar and you know,
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 2: and they had these big pins of wild pigs that
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 2: they had caught for this event, and the wild pigs
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 2: are just lying back in They're just like.
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they were just it was not too bothered by
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 3: the process.
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 2: This is going to happen, so what something else will happen.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 2: They just they had their eyelids are always at half mass.
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 2: You know, They're just like, yeah, okay, I mean this
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 2: is going to happen to me. They didn't like, they
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 2: just weren't.
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: Involved at all.
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 2: They were ready to go along.
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: And all the time the dogs was the dogs were
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: just like mannic on speed. That hog piece. I don't
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: know if you remember the details on it, but in
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 1: the end of the hog piece, you gotten looking at
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: hog distribution maps.
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I got in trouble for that A little bit,
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 2: did you. Well, I mean it really pissed off the
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: people that I had reported done the reporting with.
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 1: You got to look in at hog well, let's keep
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: this a political as possible, Okay, You got to look
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 1: in at hog distribution maps, and you got to looking
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: at voting maps. Right. I matched the two, and you
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: find you overlaid them and found that you can map
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: partisan politics in the American South and other places all
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 1: over the country based on even in the areas of California,
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: and you can look at hog density and know where
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 1: they're going to tip on a presidential election.
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 2: If a county has hogs, it is a rip county.
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: That got you in trouble.
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 2: Well, the guy, the hog expert, who I worked with,
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 2: I think didn't didn't like the article. And he was
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 2: a unbelievable guy. He was a really good scientist and
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 2: able to like, you know, if a hog was bade up,
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 2: he could throw the hog. He'd get behind the hog
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 2: and like pull its legs out from under it and
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 2: put it on the ground, you know, just like himself.
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 1: Going out a hog.
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 2: I mean that seems some of these hogs are really big.
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 2: And that was back in the days of hog Zilla.
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 1: It wasn't a wild hog.
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 2: It was a tame He was a farm raised hog.
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 2: And hog Zelda, which was a soal.
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 1: In terms of writing about people who get mad at you,
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 1: do you want to know the advice you gave.
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 2: Me, God, Steve, I don't remember this, Okay.
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: If you include a line about how good looking they are,
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 1: if you say someone's ruggedly handsome, yeah, you can say
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 1: any want them bomb the never get mad at you.
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 2: They will only get so mad. And it's really true.
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 3: It's kind of like the compliment sandwich.
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: Right. You're like, if you got to say something bad
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 1: about someone you hung out with while you're working on
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: your piece, just talk about that they're good looking. Right.
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: It's like when they read it, they'll they'll they'll they'll
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: come away feel better about the piece. Right, It's it's
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 1: quite true.
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 4: It's like pulling the hind legs out of a hog, right,
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 4: all right, they can't. They're still got two legs on
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 4: the ground. All right, you only got it half wrong.
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 1: Right. There's another piece of advice you gave me, and
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 1: I've repeated this one hundred times. In book publishing, you
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 1: need to write a generally generally speaking, people will write
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: a proposal, and they will sell this proposal protials where
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 1: I'm going with this. They will sell this proposal to
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 1: a publisher who will then give you an advance on royalties.
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 1: So you write, I'm going to write a book about
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 1: wild picks, okay, And you're like, it a look like this,
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 1: here's my perspective outline, here's like one of the chapters
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: might look like here's my whole plan. Publisher will say
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: that sounds like a phenomenal idea, a great idea. We'll
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: give you ex will give you ten dollars for the book.
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: You will give you three. Now, we'll give you three
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: after you write it, and we'll give you four on
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: the day that it publishes. And then that's like a
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 1: brief outline of how a book publishing goes. And I
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 1: told you that I was working on a proposal the
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 1: first proposal I wrote, and you told me to the
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 1: effect of, man if I ever wrote a book proposal
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 1: and they bought that book, the first thing I do
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: is throw away the proposal.
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 2: I was down on the puzzles.
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I quote that all the time.
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 2: Well that that you didn't follow that advice, So I
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 2: don't think.
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: All right, proposals all damn time.
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 2: Your first book wasn't your first book, The Escoffier book
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 2: was that the thing I wrote. Don't you kind of
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 2: see all of this is coming from that book?
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, but all of everything comes from everything, man. Yeah,
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: that's a that's a stopping point.
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 2: It was a really I mean, because you're you're finding
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 2: stuff to eat in the outdoors throughout that book.
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 2: I remember you even got pigeon eggs from like an
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 2: air conditioning unit.
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: Some We're talking about that the other night because I
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 1: had a buddy of mine I did. I had a
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 1: buddy mine ohere for dinner or so when I you know,
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: I talk about leaving finishing school and going to the
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 1: Great Lakes, right, and I wanted to write about the
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 1: Great Lakes, and I kind of lost the thread of
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 1: it and missed being out west real bad and hadn't
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 1: even really moved out where I was living, and went
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 1: back and that's when I got started on Scavenger's Guide
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 1: to Oak Cuisine. Right. I was living in Missoula at
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 1: the time. And the other night, my buddy Dave was
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 1: over and my buddy Dave was remembering about when I
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 1: was going to collect pigeons under the Higgins Street bridge,
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 1: and we had gotten hollered at by some policemen down
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: there for having an extension ladder under the bridge. Okay,
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 1: so Dave was reminiscent about he had kids, and he
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 1: was talking the other night about how he didn't want
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 1: to go back with me because he didn't want to
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: get in trouble having kids. So we're just talking about collecting,
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 1: that's all, uh huh okay. But we developed a strategy.
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 1: Pigeons would around that town. They liked to build nests
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 1: between air conditioning units and buildings. Yeah, there's like a
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: little the air conditioning units are set out six to
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 1: eight inches and they like to get there. So we
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 1: made a blocker with a pizza box and a stick,
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 1: and we made a landing net type thing where you
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 1: could put a blocker on one side, a landing net
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 1: on the other side, and then bang on the air
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: conditioning unit and the pigeons would go into the net
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 1: and then we would I would keep these pigeons in
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 1: my apartment trying to get the eggs from them. So
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: I wanted to raise my own squab, which was Scofia
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 1: has thirty four squab preparations. I think I even gave
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 1: you the words squab.
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 2: Might that when we went in that hunting trip in
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 2: the Missouri breaks, Yep, And there were all those pigeons
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 2: up there in those bluffs and we go hunting for them.
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I said that I had that I had
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 1: eaten those. I had eaten them, and they were called squab,
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: you know, baby pigeons. Yeah, which is a far cry
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 1: from adult from an adult pigeon, from in a culinary
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: from a culinary standpoint, totally different colored flesh, totally different
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 1: eating experience. So I'd reared, you know, through a lot
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 1: of attempts, eventually reared my own squab, which became a
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 1: big part of that book. Did you eat him?
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 3: Do you name him?
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: Some of them? Remember having one a little red? He
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: had a little red. He had a little red zip
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 1: strip around his ankle. What are you working on now?
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 1: What have you been working on lately? I just finished
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 1: a book about the bronx. Oh really, yep? Is there
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 1: any fishing in it? You also got to talk about
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 1: your book, The Fish's Eye.
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, The Fish's Eye is a book exclusively Why I.
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 1: Read the book about the bronx, but first time about
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 1: the Fish's Eye.
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 2: The Fish's Eye is just a bunch of different pieces
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 2: that I did over many years about fishing, and uh,
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 2: some of it it's all over the place. Some of
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 2: it is out here, some of it is in uh
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 2: I like the Yellowstone or uh, A.
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: Lot of it is.
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 2: It's mostly fly fishing. And I'm kind of more a
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 2: match the hatch type of person. You know, I don't
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 2: do I haven't fished with bait in a long time. Uh,
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 2: And I haven't And I don't really spin fish very
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 2: much anymore. I fish for shad, but I use you know,
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 2: weighted fly line and leaders. You know, I fly fish
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 2: for shad.
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 1: And so official John McPhee, he's still alive. I do.
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, John's alive.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: Yes. We talked about that reason, didn't.
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 6: We mm hmm, And I said I was sure he
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 6: was alive.
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 1: John is a great fisherman and he's ninety two ninety two. Well,
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 1: you see how I thought he might not be alive.
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: Remember that radio show used to have that game called
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 1: dead or Alive, and you call you'd like a listener
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: call in to play, and they'd given name and the
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 1: only point of the game is you had to know
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 1: if they were, you had to guess they were dead
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 1: or alive. Listen, I'm not trying to hack on John, Okay,
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 1: I'm as is a lot of time, that's a lot
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 1: of years. Most people don't do that, I know. And
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: he's forgets me. You could forgive me for thinking that maybe,
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 1: like the unit ipe, I forgive you for maybe the
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 1: inevitable overcame him. John is gonna be around for a
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 1: long time. He is Uh.
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 2: He outfishes. I mean he outfished me the last time
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 2: I fished.
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 1: Still fishes. Oh my god.
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 2: He's a really good fish.
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 3: Does a lot of fishing and coming into the country
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 3: he does.
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: He and then he's got the whole book about American shad.
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 2: He is the best shad fisherman. I mean, he studied them.
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 2: He knows everything about him.
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: Was it you were John McPhee who equated cleaning an
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 1: American shad to fixing a watch? That was him? I
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 1: think that.
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 2: Well, you know the thing about American shad. If you
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 2: do not fill ay it, uh, and you're eating it
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 2: when you're hungry, it's.
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: Going to be a nightmare.
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 2: It's very frustrating because you're taking little pieces of me
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 2: eat out from all this complicated bone structure. It's like
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 2: a Walleye pipe bone structure sort of. You know, they
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 2: have two sets of risk and it's very very intricate.
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 2: I might have said taken like taking a watch apart.
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 2: It's very hard to take. But people that can filly
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 2: shed are much in demand at this time of year.
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 1: Do you fish as much Nile as you used to do? I? No,
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 1: and that's been a problem.
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 4: I mean.
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 2: By way of that, I can say, you know, I
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 2: do a lot of exploring on foot. I do a
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 2: lot of walking and and that has kind of replaced
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 2: in a way, it replaced fishing for me. I got
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 2: very much into taking plastic bags out of trees, remember that,
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 2: and I with a buddy I invented a bag snagging
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 2: device for which we got a patent, and that.
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 1: Was our thing.
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 3: I need one of those because there's a couple.
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: And one. I read what he wrote about plastic shopping bags,
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 1: eggs and trees. Once you start looking, oh yeah, it's
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: a new evil you need to be aware of. Is
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 1: birthday balloons? Birthday balloon There is not a place you
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 1: could go to the wildest likenting elk up in the mountains.
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 3: There's one land, there's.
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 1: No place you can go anymore.
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 2: Well, you were talking about a birthday balloon land the
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 2: Burmese pythons, and I went way out in all those
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 2: places where there are no roads when I did a
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 2: piece about Burmese pythons for Smithsonian. Yeah, and we're out there.
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 2: There's no vehicle traffic out there.
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 7: Uh.
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 2: And the only trash you see out there is birthday balloons,
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 2: nop and other types of balloons. But yeah, those are everywhere.
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 2: But that I got very much into finding, you know, places,
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 2: and they're all over the city. They used to be
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 2: less so now. And going with this bag snider, we
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 2: could reach up fairly high and take bags out and
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 2: that was a hunter gatherer kind of thrill, especially getting
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 2: a bag from a really high tree. We had tensions
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 2: that we could.
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 4: Put on the bowl trophy trophy bag.
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 1: Oh man.
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 2: We had once we kept stuff that we took out,
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 2: you know, like we took a lawn chair out from
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 2: down by. After the big floods of the Mississippi floods,
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 2: we went to Saint Genevieve, Missouri, and there was stuff
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 2: in trees that have floated there that didn't have to
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 2: be carried by the wind and the stuff that floated
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 2: and drive. There were like small rooms up in trees,
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 2: you know, and this was because the water was so deep.
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 2: And uh so we took you know, like tractor tires
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 2: and all kinds of huge stuff, lots of items of clothing.
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 2: It used to be that you took a lot of
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 2: cassette tape out of trees, which is elaciously difficult to
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 2: get out. And now you don't anymore because people don't
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 2: have cassettes anymore. So in Jersey they just banned plastic
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 2: bags right for shopping. Yeah, and that really reduces it.
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 7: You know.
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 2: In Ireland they they call bags and trees witches nickers,
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 2: and after a long period of having these bags and trees,
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 2: they outlawed them, and they don't have bags and trees anymore.
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 2: I am told so man.
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: So that's more what I got into, rather than I
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 1: still do fish.
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 2: I fish in the Delaware. I fish for small mouth.
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 2: The thought of an eleven pounds small mouth is staggering.
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 1: Six, No, eleven, that's real common.
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 3: They got some big ones in the Susquehanna. You're not
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 3: far from that.
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't fished the Susquehanna.
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 1: That's good. Yeah. Wow. So did you write a proposal
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: for your Bronx book?
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 2: I explained it.
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 1: I didn't write a proposal, but so so, like I
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 1: want to be clear, I'm turning in an explanation of
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 1: the book both I was.
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was down on proposals. I thought that they
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 2: got you thinking already. Is sometimes when you read a book,
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 2: the first page is the proposal. You know, like I
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 2: see the guys already thinking in these terms.
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 1: I want you to.
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 2: I want to think more fluidly about something. But this
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 2: the Bronx is the only part of New York City
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 2: that is the continent. New York City is an archipelago.
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 2: So you have Manhattan, you have Staten Island, and you
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 2: have Long Island, which is Queens and Brooklyn, and then
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 2: there are a lot of other islands around there. And
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 2: the Bronx is the continent. And that's where, in fact,
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 2: America is sort of you know, from a geographic point
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 2: of view, that's where America begins.
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 7: And the.
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 2: Something in I think it was the piece you did
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 2: about that guy who raises white or who has white
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 2: tails on his farm in Wisconsin in the Driftless area,
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 2: which is beautiful country.
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 1: I need to point out he does not raise them.
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 2: Sorry, he doesn't raise them. I don't mean to say
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 2: that he assists.
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 1: He'll assists in their existence through land.
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 2: Right, But I think it was he who said that
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 2: he was interested in how a place affects the people
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 2: in it, and how the people in a place affect
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 2: the place. And to me, that's what I'm trying, what
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 2: I have tried to do with the Bronx, that it's
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 2: a human geography. And this was a place that was
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 2: beat on mercilessly during the era of our country after
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 2: World War Two, when we built highways everywhere, so they
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 2: just flattened the Bronx with highways and tore down lots
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 2: of neighborhoods and the Bronx kind of was reeling and burned,
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 2: and it was famous for burning when it was, you know,
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 2: on Howard Cosell and the it was in a World
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 2: Series game and the Goodyear blimp had a picture of
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 2: Yankee Stadium and then it kind of panned a little
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 2: bit to one side and there was a burning building
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 2: and Howard Cosell said, the Bronx is burning.
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 1: Supposed that's what that came wrong.
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that era, you know, thousands of thousands of
• 1:56:06
  Speaker 2: buildings burned in the Bronx and from Arson. It was
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 2: not so much arson as that you had very old
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 2: buildings and you had the baby boom, and you had
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 2: a lot of kids living there, and kids were just
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 2: beating on the buildings. You couldn't and it was redline.
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 2: So all that place was redline. You couldn't get Red
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 2: line means you can't get a loan to fix the building.
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 2: You can't get a loan.
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 1: Condemned.
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 2: It's not exactly condemned, it's just like a warning to
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 2: potential lenders that this is according to the government, you
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 2: can't uh, this is a dangerous place to lend, and
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 2: you cannot get insurance in this place. And so the
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 2: buildings were just sitting there and they didn't get fixed up,
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 2: and it was just a whole bunch of factors came together.
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 2: But sort of part of the plot of my book
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 2: is that as that happened, kids in the Bronx in
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 2: their teens invented hip hop, and hip hop was invented
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 2: in the Bronx, and that story of how it was
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 2: invented and who invented it and the people who did
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 2: it is just to me, it was just really fascinating.
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 2: So to me, the Bronx is a place in between,
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 2: and that the in betweenness of a place can get
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 2: it really torn up and over overrunning away and people.
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 2: You don't you don't pay attention to the place that
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 2: you drive through.
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 2: One thing that you do is you go to that
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 2: you on your show do is that you go to
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 2: specific places and you see how people have made that
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 2: place live, you know, and that each place is different,
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 2: and that we haven't really thought in those terms. We
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 2: thought in great, big generalities about places, and now I
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 2: think you have to think much more specifically about what
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 2: a place is. And the people who saved the Bronx
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 2: were people who thought of the Bronx as this specific
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 2: place where they grew up. They were proud to be here,
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 2: they weren't going anywhere, and they saved the Bronx. The
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 2: people who lived in the Bronx saved it. And so
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 2: it's a story that I don't think a lot of
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 2: people know. People have I write about places where people
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 2: have a preconceived idea of what it's like, you know,
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 2: the Great Plains. People would say from New York, Oh,
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 2: I flew over that there's nothing there. You know, there's
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 2: a lot there. You think there's nothing there, there's a
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 2: lot there, you know. Or people will say, oh, Siberia,
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 2: you know, it's cold, it's prisons. Well yeah, but there's
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 2: a lot other there's a lot more going on there.
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 2: And I kind of like to treat a place as
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 2: almost as if it was a person. And you don't
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 2: want to generalize in a stupid way about it. You know,
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 2: you don't want to generalize about any part of you know,
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 2: the world, because each place is different and the people
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 2: in the places are different.
• 1:58:58
  Speaker 1: So well, will that book come out? I hope next year?
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 1: Is it with your normal publishers? Yeah, same publisher What
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 1: are you gonna do next now that you finish that?
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 2: I haven't really decided. I wanted to do a book
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 2: about steamboat explosions. See this reaction makes you think I
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 2: should do it because they blew up all the time,
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 2: and you can find stories of steamboats in the middle
• 1:59:26
  Speaker 2: of Mississippi that blew up and people were ended up
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 2: on either sides of the river.
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 1: Oh, I mean huge explosions where people would just.
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 2: You know, and the you know, there's a lot of
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 2: cool stuff about steamboat.
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 1: Explosions should write that proposal.
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 2: I would. What I'll do is I'll say, go to
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 2: uh Stephen Ranella's podcast and this is where it started.
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 2: But uh yeah, I mean the problem with explosions is
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 2: they happen, and then there's the plot kind of has
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 2: to start up again.
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 2: It's a little bit tricky as a plot device.
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 1: Explosions blew up and blue people to both sides of
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 1: the river.
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. There's a very funny book, unintentionally funny book that
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 2: came out in like eighteen fifty seven called Disasters on
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 2: the Western Rivers and it has woodcuts of steamboats blowing up,
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 2: and it'll say, you know, the explosion of the Saint
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 2: Mary's and then there'd be this blamd of all steamboat
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 2: parts flying. And then you turn a page and it'll
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 2: be like, you know, the explosion of the City of Memphis,
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 2: and there'll be another woodcut of a steamboat blowing up.
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 1: What's the book call.
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 2: It's called Disasters on the Western Rivers and it came
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 2: out in like eighteen fifty seven or something.
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 1: If you write a book about guide's called the same thing.
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 4: Yep, that'd be really cool that the illustrations of those
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 4: explosions always include some person silhouetted by the flames, which
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 4: I appreciate that it's.
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 1: Consistent, it's really true.
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 4: What about a bird watcher's guide to picking out trophy
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 4: bags from trees?
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 2: Well, I was going to do a bags in Trees book,
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 2: I even hobby table book. Somebody was offering to do that,
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 2: but uh yeah, I didn't. Somehow we didn't end up
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 2: doing that, and that was because we were a little
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 2: bit early when we were doing it. If we did
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 2: it now, we would do something online and I think
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 2: we would get a lot of people that would be
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 2: interested in it. But you know, you age out of that.
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 2: It's it's really hard work. You're holding something up like that,
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 2: stuff falls down on you. And I had one time
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 2: I saw this thing up in a tree and it
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 2: was really nasty looking, and it was a terry cloth
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 2: towel and it was kind of bagged out a little bit,
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 2: and it was hanging from one branch to another, kind
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 2: of hammock like, and I thought, that thing's full of water.
• 2:01:57
  Speaker 2: And so I have my snagger as a hook on
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 2: the end, and I went up and hooked into that
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 2: terry cloth towel and a rat ran.
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 1: At me and it was like, wow, I was gonna
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 1: have one hundred feet.
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 2: I mean the guy, my friend Tim, who I was
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 2: doing it with, said he looked at me and he
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 2: thought I had been electrocuted.
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 1: A wire.
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 2: And I mean, but to have a rat looking right
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 2: at you running down the pole, and the thing is
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 2: he he got pretty close and before I could drop it,
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 2: and then he jumped to a tree and then he
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 2: jumped to the.
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 1: Roof of like a store in yourbody.
• 2:02:38
  Speaker 2: But I mean, rats, that was a high. It was
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 2: a long jump.
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 1: They can really fly. They're amazing.
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 4: So you have a necessary gear chapter, and you have
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 4: some cautionary tales wildlife con electricity, wildlife con.
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 1: It's great.
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 4: I have to clear up are who wrote a Boy
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 4: with a gun?
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 1: Give a boy gun?
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 4: So give a boy a gun? A true story of
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 4: law and disorder in the American West.
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 1: That's the Claude Dallas story.
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 4: Jack Olson told you give a boy a gun? Not
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 4: jack Olson.
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: The Strasser Todd What's that give a boy Gun about?
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 4: It's an epistolary tale for young adults by Todd Strasser,
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 4: first published in two thousands.
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 1: Stool Dude, How many young adults out there are going
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 1: to see a book that says an epistolary tale for
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 1: young adults and pick that up. You know, I don't know,
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 1: I'm no marketer, but crying out loud, well.
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 4: Back in the days of kids being in libraries all
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 4: the time, yeah, that probably would have been like give
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 4: a boy a gun, great, Oh yeah.
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 1: They would have know the name would have hooked him
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 1: because they wanted a gun. Yeah, but then the epistolary
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 1: part they would have lost them. Yeah, it'd be like
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 1: pistols cool, Hey, give a piece of advice, for give
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 1: a piece of a writer, because he used to give
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 1: me a lot of writer's advice. What can for that?
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 3: Can I ask questions? Both of you did the whole Like,
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 3: don't write in a way where you start by explaining
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 3: what you're gonna write, then you write what you're gonna write,
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 3: and then explain what is that?
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 1: No, I think that that was one of my own annoyances. Okay,
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 1: all right, Where you start by how do I put it?
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 3: You start by explaining what you're gonna write.
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 1: You kind of explain what you're gonna write and write,
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 1: and then you explain what you just wrote.
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's a common structure. You know, it's
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 2: a common structure of sermons for example. You know, so
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 2: this is what I'm gonna be telling you about. And
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 2: then they tell you and then they tell you what
• 2:04:40
  Speaker 2: they told you about. So it's not it's not uncommon.
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 2: But no, you're saying advice about.
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 1: Give some writerly advice for aspiring writers.
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 2: Uh, hit them where they ain't well, you know, isn't
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 2: that hitting advice like in base?
• 2:05:00
  Speaker 7: You know?
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 2: I mean when I moved to Missoula. I mean, this
• 2:05:06
  Speaker 2: is a long way around of saying this, but when
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 2: I moved to Missoula, there's a central building there on
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 2: campus and it has a big high spire maybe you remember.
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and something with the Mansfields or something. I
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 1: don't know, it might have to do with the Mansfields.
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And when we got there that week, somebody nobody
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 2: knew who climbed up on that spire and impaled a
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 2: pumpkin on this spire. How they did it was absolutely
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 2: a mystery, you know, you just but it was a
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 2: risky thing to do, and that like, I mean, I
• 2:05:42
  Speaker 2: I was careful talking to young writers because I don't
• 2:05:45
  Speaker 2: want to tell them to go out and do something dangerous.
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 2: But if you pay attention to what people are writing
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 2: about and what people are thinking about, it will run
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 2: to a type. There's certain kinds of things that just
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 2: everybody's sort of thinking the same thing. And that's the
• 2:05:59
  Speaker 2: way it is with just human beings. And see the
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 2: thing that people aren't thinking about in the way, for me,
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 2: the bronx is an example. Nobody's thinking about the bronx,
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 2: and or you know, people are, but it wasn't like
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 2: a subject of people to means a light movement. But
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 2: the other thing is do something that other people are
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 2: afraid to do, because if you do that, you have
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 2: got a book already, you know. I mean Neil Armstrong
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 2: steps on the Moon, he's got a book. You know,
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 2: if you're you know, if you do something that other
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 2: people don't do, you might not even write about that thing.
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 2: It would just put you in a frame of mind
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 2: where you could you had authority, where you felt you
• 2:06:44
  Speaker 2: had something to tell people. You know, if you do
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 2: something that people are like drive across Siberia, most people
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 2: would say, don't do that, why do that? But if
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 2: you do it, then you have something to write about.
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 2: So that's sort of just a simple nonfiction way of
• 2:06:58
  Speaker 2: doing it. How people write fiction is another question. I
• 2:07:02
  Speaker 2: don't I have written one nonfiction. I have written one novel,
• 2:07:07
  Speaker 2: and it was called The Cursing Mommy's Book of Days.
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 2: I had this character called the Cursing Mommy who starts
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 2: out to make like chilli and she's telling me how
• 2:07:17
  Speaker 2: she makes a chili and then everything goes wrong and
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 2: she's just cursing like crazy. And this was about how
• 2:07:23
  Speaker 2: she kind of it was a year in her life,
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 2: and it was, you know, it was an attempt. I
• 2:07:28
  Speaker 2: don't really feel that fiction is my is my thing,
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 2: but but for nonfiction, it's a question of looking and
• 2:07:35
  Speaker 2: seeing what other people are doing and what other people
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 2: aren't doing and telling something that you feel like really
• 2:07:42
  Speaker 2: people should know, I mean, and you'd look for stuff
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 2: like that. So I don't know what would your writerly
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 2: advice be.
• 2:07:48
  Speaker 1: So I don't know. I got a there's a work
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 1: ethic like you you're not a preachy person, but there's
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 1: a work ethic component. And I don't know. You might
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 1: not remember the story. Uh, just as you mentored me,
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 1: you had you were mentoring some other guy after me,
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 1: and somehow you had gotten something lined up for them.
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 1: You'd gotten a writing piece lined up for him, and
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 1: they told you they couldn't do it because they had
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 1: to go on family vacation. Yeah, and you were done
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 1: with that person. Now that's you were just so like
• 2:08:32
  Speaker 1: dismayed and blown away.
• 2:08:34
  Speaker 2: I don't remember who what the specific person would have been,
• 2:08:37
  Speaker 2: but that was like, that's it. Yeah. If somebody says, well,
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 2: I also have to do such, I said, no, you don't.
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 2: You don't also have to do anything else.
• 2:08:46
  Speaker 1: I can't. I remember you tell me that you were
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 1: just like so endo that mentorship. Yeah. Uh, we're gonna
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 1: do trivia next, You're gonna stick around. Okay, h do
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 1: you know about what I'm talking about?
• 2:09:03
  Speaker 2: I haven't. I haven't listened to a trivia show of
• 2:09:05
  Speaker 2: yours yet.
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 1: You see that where it says, uh, where's the visitors thing?
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 1: At bottom? We've had eight wins by trivia guests.
• 2:09:16
  Speaker 5: Really.
• 2:09:17
  Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, I think you might. You have he has
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 1: you have a very good chance of doing.
• 2:09:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, well I'll take as take a shot.
• 2:09:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, for those of you listen, you want to check
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 1: it out. The writer Ian Fraser, author of a bunch
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 1: of books, the Ones for for our Audience, I would
• 2:09:39
  Speaker 1: say the Fish's Eye Great Planes, and then it's I
• 2:09:50
  Speaker 1: think travels in Siberia, great planes, Fish's Eye travels. And
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 1: is that all right? That's insulting?
• 2:09:59
  Speaker 7: No, not.
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 1: They're all adventure books in a way. I put that.
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 1: I put great Planes on like anytime I have to do,
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 1: like like the greatest books of all time, my favorite
• 2:10:07
  Speaker 1: books of all time. Well, I'm I'm happy to hear that.
• 2:10:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's just oh, it's good. It's like, I mean,
• 2:10:17
  Speaker 1: it changed my worldview, man, it really did.
• 2:10:22
  Speaker 2: I'm honored.
• 2:10:23
  Speaker 1: I know you wrote a long time ago. You wrote
• 2:10:25
  Speaker 1: a ton of stuff since then, and maybe it's annoying
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 1: to hear about some book you wrote a long time.
• 2:10:28
  Speaker 1: It doesn't bother me to hear about stuff I wrote
• 2:10:30
  Speaker 1: a long time ago.
• 2:10:31
  Speaker 2: No, it doesn't, it doesn't. But uh, you know, you
• 2:10:36
  Speaker 2: think you have to do you want to do the
• 2:10:38
  Speaker 2: next thing too, so sure it's uh, sometimes you just
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 2: there will be the one thing that you do and
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 2: that that might be that might be it. But but uh,
• 2:10:54
  Speaker 2: but yeah, I'm always I'm looking for the next thing.
• 2:10:57
  Speaker 2: And I feel I feel good about steamboat explosions.
• 2:11:00
  Speaker 1: No, I'm feeling good about what did you say, the
• 2:11:02
  Speaker 1: Bronx book's gonna be.
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 2: Called it's going to be called Paradise Bronx.
• 2:11:06
  Speaker 1: Okay, and then the other one will be called Disasters
• 2:11:09
  Speaker 1: on Western Rivers.
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 2: Dars, No, it might be Actually I love that title,
• 2:11:15
  Speaker 2: Disasters on the Western River.
• 2:11:17
  Speaker 1: You start a rock band with the same name. Yeah, alright,
• 2:11:20
  Speaker 1: stay tuned, you'll see what always comes out the next day, right.
• 2:11:24
  Speaker 4: Trivie days Wednesdays, So.
• 2:11:26
  Speaker 1: If you're listening with this hot off the press, it's
• 2:11:28
  Speaker 1: Monday joining Wednesday for the Trivia Show, in which Ian
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 1: Fraser maybe wins, probably not, probably not. Maybe try to
• 2:11:41
  Speaker 1: build up suspense.
• 2:11:42
  Speaker 2: I want to keep down expectations.
• 2:11:44
  Speaker 1: So see you all at the Trivia show. Thanks for joining.
• 2:11:58
  Speaker 7: Seal out Shine like Silver in the Sun.
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 1: Ride, Ride, Ride on alone, Sweetheart. We're done beat this
• 2:12:17
  Speaker 1: damp horse to death.
• 2:12:20
  Speaker 6: Taking a new one and ride.
• 2:12:26
  Speaker 2: We're done beat this damn horseday, So take a new
• 2:12:32
  Speaker 2: one and ride on