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How to Embrace Failure as a Leader with Sarah McVanel · Authentic Living

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Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we conscious conversations about
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things that really matter in our lives.
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And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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Hi, everyone.
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It's Sal Roxanne Derhodge.
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Thanks for tuning in again.
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Today, I have a colleague, Sarah McDonald.
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Sarah, how are you today?
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I am I am awesome to be on the phone with you, but I will admit I have a cold.
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So I sound very on target with my brand frog ever recognize others greatness.
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I sound like a stuffed up frog right now.
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So other than a little cold, I am awesome.
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Well, you look amazing.
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Thank you.
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So, Sarah and I have been, colleagues for a couple years.
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Now she's the president of, the, Toronto chapter of the Canadian Association of
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professional speakers, which I'm a member.
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And Sarah's been a member now for goodness.
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It's been about 4 years.
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4 years.
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And for me, for me, it's just, heading into my 2nd year.
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And we've shared, some time with various, mastermind groups and things like that.
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And I have the privilege of seeing her once a month, at at our events.
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So Sarah's done something
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She's
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done a lot of fantastic things since I've met with her.
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She's recently done, she's just, it's her 4th book and she's just published, which is, I've
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been seeing all over social, and I thought, what an opportunity to talk about failure?
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So the name of focus called the flip side of feeling how to recognize and leverage greatness
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in work and life.
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And I I know all of us.
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I don't know.
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I know me for sure.
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I'm always trying to figure out kind of the combination and how to, you know, when I feel
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that something at home kinda how to make it better the next time or at work.
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I mean, for most of us, I know if we've kinda been around for a little bit, we failed often,
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and I know in my career of 30 years of being in the psych psychology field, and now in the
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speaking world, I failed a lot.
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So, Sarah, thank you so much for coming on.
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And My pleasure.
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Congratulations on the book.
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Thank you.
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It's funny how, you write the book that you need to read yourself.
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I don't know Roxanne if you've found that because you're a published author.
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This book never was going to be about failure.
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That's this is a hilarious thing.
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I'm I'm writing a book on failure, and I'm actually a recognition expert.
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So it seems completely counterintuitive.
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But, actually, when I the book I was trying to write was about greatness.
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So I went out and I interviewed all these great Canadians, many of which you know, and adore
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you, Roxanne, you know, people like Orlando Bowen who's an X CFL player and a just an
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incredible speaker, Vince Percente, world record holder, Heather Mois, Bob's letter,
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Olympic Bob's letter, gold medalist, Alan Mallory, Everest Climer, I've got 3 m scholars.
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People also who are like, quote, you and me, you know, who have who have experienced
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traumas, who have come back from that incredible challenges, And I wanted to
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basically write a book where each chapter was talking about greatness.
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What another theme on greatness.
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And it was the most boring book Roxanne, you would not have wanted to read that book.
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It was so I tried to write it twice and failed.
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So then, of course, you think Okay.
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Well, obviously, I either have to get rid of this and then disappoint all these people that
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I've interviewed and all the wonderful interns that I work with who help me in interviewing
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these folks and transcriptions and all of that.
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And I'm not a I never give up, as you know, I'm very persistent.
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So I thought there must be a different book in hearing.
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And that was when the most obvious thing just sat there right there at the front of the stack
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and the number one thing In fact, the only one that every single one of those individuals,
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these great Canadians that I put on a pedestal, only thing that they said was They all strove
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to fail.
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And failure was, in fact, the reason why they became great, why they were 3 m scholars in in
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in in the most unlikely of times and and perhaps some popular research fields.
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And and the only way that you can ever get an Olympic medal is if you're constantly pushing
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past your physical and mental limitations.
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And it just made so much sense.
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And I thought, okay.
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This actually is a deeper message about recognition because if we can recognize
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ourselves and others, despite failure, Now that is truly authentic recognition.
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That now is unconditional recognition, and that and this is where I love the work that you do.
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This is where we truly have meaningful human connection.
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So I'm gonna assume when you're kinda trying twice, I listen to you because I've written a
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book and I know what takes to
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Yes.
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Write a book, right?
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You kinda go to 2 iterations, and then you're thinking, oh, this is this is right.
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It's not working.
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Yes.
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There had to be a part of you that saying, that, you know, quote, quote, I failed here.
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Yes.
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And then you're looking at it and you're thinking, here's the pebble and the rough here.
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Like as you're reading all these phenomenal stories of some of these people that I've I've
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had the privilege now of spending great time with who are fantastic.
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Was it like you kinda sitting there and looking wow.
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Here it is.
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Yes.
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That's exactly what it is.
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It's It is it's sometimes the most obvious things are the things that you can't see or
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that you avoid.
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And I did not like the idea of writing a book about failure.
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I did not like the idea as a professional speaker as well, I do not like the idea of
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standing in front of audiences talking about failure.
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I might actually have to admit my own failures.
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If I, if I want to be so bold as to talk about other people's failures, I can't just hide
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behind sharing great Canadian stories.
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And then when, you know, I face the reality that I had kept to give up, In actual fact,
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that felt like a bigger failure because I'd be not only letting those individuals down that
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have worked hard on the book as well as that I took their precious time, you know, people like
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Peter Mansbridge that interviews world leaders who who, I mean, he's recently retired from the
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CBC Canadian bod broadcast company However, he he normally interviews the Obama's and the
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Clintons and the, you know, trudeau's of the world.
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He gave me an hour of his time.
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I cannot let him down and all the other people, not to mention the fact that if we don't talk
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about failure, so it's very easy reason why I resisted it.
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And, I mean, you I'm sure you've studied Carl Young just extensively.
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He said, what you resist persists.
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It persisted for a reason.
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And, you know, the best keynote now, the one that people love and they get so much value out
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of that people come up to me afterward with tears streaming down their face saying, okay.
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This is this showed up on my world for a reason is this keynote.
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And, yes, I talk about my biggest failure, a failure as a mom and how we can and that by the
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tail end of that speech.
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I talk about how we came back from that.
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It ended up being the best thing that happened to us in our individual lives, but also as a
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family, and how it would led to the best career I could ever have imagined and never would have
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done that had it not been from this for this catastrophic failure I experienced in my life.
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And so I just, that is what gave me with the fortitude to keep writing and to write the book
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that I resisted and didn't wanna write.
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But that was, as you say, just sitting right there as plain as the nose on my face.
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So would you mind sharing a little bit of that story?
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I've been I've heard it a couple I've heard snippets of it.
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I've not heard, all of it's from our time together.
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I think it's a fascinating story.
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I if you would be Yeah.
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Course.
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Of course.
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Yeah.
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About, 5 years ago, I was working in a corporate job, maybe even 6 years ago now.
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I was a senior leader in a hospital.
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I'd worked very hard to climb the corporate ladder, had a master's degree, had done many
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sort occasions even while we were raising small children, kept going back to school and getting
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additional qualifications.
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And now I had reached the 2nd highest position in the organization along with, of course, a
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peer group.
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And and I was 38.
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I mean, this is isn't this what we're all supposed to do?
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Is is make the most of our education and get good paychecks and have fancy titles on
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LinkedIn.
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And the and at and on the surface, everything looks great.
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Because, we, you know, we have a couple of cars.
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We have couple of homes, and and we have 2 beautiful children.
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And I came home from work one day having worked late yet again because I often missed dinner at
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this point in my life.
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And I and I go to work so early that I even don't get a chance at breakfast with family
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either.
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And my husband says to me as I walk in the door, could you go up and talk to Justin who is
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our ten year old son?
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And so I don't even get a chance to say hello to my eight year old daughter or to give him a
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kiss.
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I go right upstairs because I'm mummy therapist.
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Because like you, Roxanne, my my background is therapy.
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That's my master's.
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And I figure, oh, you know, hey.
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I mediate coach all day long.
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No problem.
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I'll this fixed up in 10 minutes, me back downstairs to wolf down some dinner and get
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routine restored, get the bath time done, and then probably hop back on my emails to, you
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know, catch up on the things that I had left as I was sciving as I was driving home.
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And as I walked in the door, I just could feel something was wrong.
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I didn't know what it was.
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I could just feel it.
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You know, that feeling with a loved one, I'm sure you and all the listeners have got have
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had that feeling.
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And, it's dark.
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My son who's ADHD normally is a whirling dervish at this time of the night.
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He's sitting in in the corner staring at the wall.
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And, as I walk down, I sit down beside him.
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And the light is streaming in from the the spotlight, this the street lamp outside, as I
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say to him, you know, bad day at school today, bud, and he says, yet.
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It was a bad bullying day today, mom.
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And and they as he's saying it, I actually looked down at his arm, and I noticed there cut
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marks up and down his arm, intentional cuts.
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And and it all begins to make sense why my child who is on antidepressants anxiety, anti
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tick medication, even though he doesn't have Tourette's, he is clearly being bullied, and I
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had no idea.
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And in that moment, this feeling of complete failure as a mother washes over me.
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And all the work that we're seeing coming out of Renee Brown's lab shows us about how there
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are 2 things that cause shame in women more than anything else.
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Number 1, body, you mentioned number 2, motherhood.
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Whether you're a mom or not, apparently nobody's averse to it, which is just so
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wonderful.
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Shame is an equal opportunity employer.
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And, and I just felt awful.
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I just thought, like, how could I miss this?
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How could I be so busy climbing that ladder that I didn't even notice what was going on
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with the most important people in my life?
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And it also then spirals the shame cycle of, well, what have I missed in my daughter and
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what have I missed in my husband and my parents and You know, so, my son asked me alone.
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I go downstairs.
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I tell my husband.
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Now he has his own shame cycle.
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He's a teacher.
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How did I miss this?
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I'm his dad.
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I've been with for hours.
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How come he didn't say anything?
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And for men, their biggest triggers for shame is masculinity and being a provider, and he
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feels Like, I haven't provided.
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I haven't protected my child.
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How could I have missed this?
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And we had a really dark place, and this is our this was the I've had a lot of failures in my
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life, but this is definitely the biggest one because in that moment, Roxanne, I thought I
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don't know if my kid's gonna live through this.
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He's talking about wishing he wasn't alive.
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And and when I when I had hugged him upstairs, and I said everything's gonna be okay.
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We're gonna fix this promise you and you're a good kid and don't let those kids tell you that
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you're not worth it and that you're not a good person.
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I could tell when he looked at me.
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He did not believe this time that I could fix it, and he didn't believe that he was worth it.
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And, that in that moment, we didn't know how to fix it, and then we started to do things We
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recognized each other a lot more, you know, all the things that I I teach people in a corporate
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environment around recognition.
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We actually practice in our household, and that helped but the environment, the context was
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actually setting him up for failure as well.
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The school, the before and after school day care.
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And I'm not down on schools because My husband's a teacher.
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I love schools.
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It's just that particular school did not was not willing to face it and to do what they
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needed to do.
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So we realized that we as much as we can make things better in our household, he was being
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bullied in every area except at our house and a few houses.
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Of of close friends, but he didn't really even truly have close friends.
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So we just we needed to start again.
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So We quit our life.
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Basically, we sold everything, but our cars needed those, and we kept the kids because we
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were pretty attached.
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And, and we moved and we got out of debt and we we moved back to Niagara on the lake or Niagara
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Niagara Lake District Niagara Lake area because that where my family is, and that's where I'm
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originally from.
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Of course, wonderful people like you live here, so it's a great place to be.
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And We started again and I, started a business, not having the fog is clearly what to do at all
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because I've never, you know, you don't learn business when you're in psychology school and
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just told everybody that I do that I liked, hey.
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Guess what?
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I work for myself now.
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You want any work done?
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That that was the extent of my business model.
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That was it.
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That was it.
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I just told people I'm open for business.
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And in that 1st year, I just broke even, but I did everything that I possibly could.
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Most importantly, though, it didn't matter that I just broke even.
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Because we set ourselves up that that was okay.
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You know, we could we could live off of just my husband's income because we didn't have a
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mortgage and car payments and things like that.
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And, but my son got well.
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He got well so quickly.
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And within 6 months, he has friends for the first time.
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He's in a safe school that really loves him and sees his strengths and, you know, it's not
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perfect.
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It's not easy for him.
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He's a lot of challenges, but you know what?
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They could see his greatness, and they didn't just see his just challenges.
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My kids got into competitive sports that we never had time or energy to get them to and
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from, and they they'd started to just thrive in those environments.
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He got off antidepressants, anti anxieties, no more ticks, and and he's just now years later,
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he's a competitive roller and he is if he wants to, he probably could one day make a national
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team if that becomes something he wants.
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He's got wonderful relationships.
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With not just friends, but also the, you know, this choice in in in romantic relationships are
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very respectful and compassionate.
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I mean, the meat spends so much time with his girlfriend, and she's just total delight.
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And and it's it's it's been the best thing for me as well because I didn't realize that I
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actually didn't enjoy most of what I was doing in my job, and I love almost everything.
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I do in my business.
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They almost everything part is, you know, receipts and tracking mileage and
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taxes and all that fun stuff.
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All that fun business running your business stuff.
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But, no, I mean, every, truly, every day, I I feel so blessed.
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And, you know, my son, at fact, all of us have said at various points, and we will say this
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often Wow.
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You know, if it hadn't have been for that crisis, family crisis we have had, wouldn't be
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here in how lucky we are.
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I mean, we live in the on the water, a beautiful place in Niagara, and and we love our
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home, and we just we love the freedom that we have now.
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Financial freedom and just, you know, life freedom.
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We're just better people too.
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Because of this as well.
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And I don't mean to paint life as a polyana.
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We're raising teenagers.
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It's not like we never have disputes or Like, life isn't easy.
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I'm not trying to paint a paint a picture like that.
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It's just I never ever would have thought.
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That our biggest failure would lead to actually our biggest success.
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Wow.
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So when you kind of think of like your story and and you've all these phenomenal, you know,
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people, you know, that have done phenomenal things in in our history in Canada, What are
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some of the things that you picked up from them that thematically that you could share about
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about failing?
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And that that I think I I'm interested, and I'm sure the people listening are also interested.
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For sure.
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You know, one of the biggest themes that I realized when I was actually creating a keynote
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version.
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So this was after the book was was produced, is that how they handle failures, actually, how
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they handle everything in work and life.
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So, for example, Peter Mansbridge doesn't have a university education, and you would think, my
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gosh, if you yeah.
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You'd never know.
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Right?
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No, he decided when he was in in high school that he wanted to travel.
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So he told his parents who were who always taught current events, always told their
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children, you're gonna to university, you're gonna become big things and, you know, become
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doctors, lawyers, judges, whatever, you know, whatever you wanna do as long as it's a
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esteemed profession, and he he told them, no.
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I'm I'm I wanna travel and and then he ended up joining the navy.
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And when he came back to Canada, he was working in the airport, doing basically anything that
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needed doing And he said, okay.
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You know, when somebody was, we had called in sick, Okay.
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I'll do the announcements.
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No problem.
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And he started doing the announcements.
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And just a perfect stranger waiting for a flight came up to him and said, you know, I've
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been listening to you and you have a great voice.
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You should be on radio.
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And just in that moment, he went, yes.
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I should be in broadcasting.
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So that said his path.
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He the next day in his coveralls with his name on lapel and went up to the front desk of the
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local CBC radio station and said, hi.
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I'm Peter Mansford.
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I'm gonna be a broadcaster.
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Can you imagine the look on the reception of space?
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And they talked to him, and they thought, sure.
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We'll give this guy a chance.
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And and as he climbed his career in journalism, he would tell he tells the first one to say The
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door slammed in my face way more times than it opened.
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You don't have the education.
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You don't have the pedigree.
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You don't have the connections you've gone as far as you can.
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Every time you wanted to go to an a bigger city to or made the leap from radio to TV and then
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from being an correspondent to having a regular spot.
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That was multiple failures, multiple failed attempts, multiple rejections before those
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things ever happened.
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He just believed that I have to believe in my dream and myself more than other people because
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I'm the one who knows myself.
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I know what is possible for me.
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So how you handle failures, how you handle everything, that he doesn't take no for an
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answer.
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So you can probably imagine why he's had some pretty darn tough, but fabulous interviews with
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13,000 people.
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And Wise covered every royal wedding or funeral, every major, you know, natural
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disaster, elections for decades and has been a trusted journalist.
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So that's I mean, he's he's one of many people that really lives that how you handle failures,
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how you handle everything.
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Your rejection is not the story.
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It's the it's the pushing past it and through it.
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That is the true story of your success.
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Another theme that came up which ended up being a part of a model that I created was your
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resiliency comes from your failures.
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So you're it's actually it's not that you have to become resilient to failure.
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It's that actually your failures can build your resilience.
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See.
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So the model that I, created in the book is how it's it accept as the acronym so how we can
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accept failure because as I and you alluded to this earlier, that we all fail.
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We all have challenges.
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We all have failures.
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It's not if you have a failure or an obstacle roadblock, a challenge.
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It's how you handle it when it happens.
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And I'll give you, for the show notes, the link to for if folks want to download this this
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chart, but, in essence, being failure resilient and when you accept failure, a is a choir where
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people would ask themselves things like what?
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What can I learn?
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So what can I acquire from this?
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The first c is choice.
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What options are available.
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People who are not resistant to failure consider it there must be another option There
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must be another possibility as opposed to it limiting their choices.
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They don't externalize their power.
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They internalize their options.
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The Nextiva's connection.
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So how can this bond or unite?
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And that's the fascinating thing of these people that I initially put on a pedestal as I
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looked at it through the lens of failure, I realized that they're just like you and I.
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And I and I invite the reader in or the listener, in fact, to think about how the
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people that they most respect and role model and or their the role models in their life,
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it's actually probably their failures, that have made them more accessible to them and that
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they respect them even more because of or despite their failures Right.
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Or the obstacles, not not be you know, not respect them less because there's been a
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failure.
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The ease expect, how could this be expected, as opposed to seeing it as this this fearful
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thing, it is, well, failures happen.
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So how do I how do I bounce back from it?
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How do I process this?
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P is progress, what's the best way forward?
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So it's not necessarily always the outcome getting right to the outcome because that's
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often how we in this society to perfectionistic society that we live in.
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It has to be I have to be at the top.
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I have to have the top job.
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I have to get there faster than everybody.
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You know, 40 under 40 is, oh, great.
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I'm 41.
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So great.
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Now I'm washed up.
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No.
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It's just you may still make progress in your business.
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That's what's most important.
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And then key transformation is what is important on the long term.
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So folks don't necessarily get caught up in in how this is it for me.
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It's that this must be here for a reason.
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We have this expression and the speaking profession.
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Your message, your message.
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So how is in fact this failure, this obstacle, this roadblock, this setback, how could it
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actually have shown up for a reason?
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And could things be better as a result?
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So those are a few of the things.
23:30
I could go on rosy or Roxy, but I just don't you know, I don't wanna take I take up all the
23:36
airtime.
23:36
What what are the questions do you have?
23:39
Well, I'm I'm just thinking.
23:40
Right?
23:41
So from a leadership perspective or when you're running teams, right, or managers, or, you
23:47
know, there's always the diversity of of how people
23:53
Deal with failure.
23:55
Yes.
23:55
Right?
23:55
So if you're thinking of work environment, you know, from that perspective, what kind of you
24:02
know, words of wisdom would you give to people that manage others, right, because I think
24:07
about, you know, some of the teams that I've managed over my career.
24:10
And I I I literally think I had one team that I managed, and there was 10 personalities without
24:15
a doubt.
24:16
Right?
24:17
There was, you know, there was nothing that I could do with one that I you know, I didn't do
24:20
for with another, and I had to learn each person and and then kind of sing their song
24:26
based on what they were needing at that time and all those So what what kind of things?
24:31
And then you've been obviously back in this whole concept of failure for, you know, however
24:37
long you've been, working on this book.
24:41
What would you say to people that are having to manage people that deal with failure in
24:45
different ways?
24:47
Well, first of all, I just wanna say how lucky people are to have worked for you that you were
24:52
willing to honor them for who they are.
24:56
It's really easiest leaders to fall into the traps of the millennials and the boomers and,
25:01
you know, all these sort of or veteran workers, experienced workers versus newer.
25:08
It's really easy to categorize and pigeonhole people.
25:11
And you didn't do that.
25:12
So I just really wanna honor and acknowledge that because that's part of how how you handle
25:17
failures, how you handle everything.
25:19
Right?
25:19
So it's the same with leadership.
25:20
How you handle failure in leadership is how you handle everything.
25:23
And and I think the new leaders learn pretty quickly that if you try to manage everybody the
25:28
same way, particularly since that way is probably the way you wanna be managed, which it
25:33
may not be the way everybody wants to be managed.
25:35
So, I mean, that's that's part of it is actually you just role model by how you
25:40
described how the way you've you've led.
25:43
So that's one thing is to just recognize every's different, and that will help you with
25:47
how to handle with people as well as back as leaders that people are not gonna get it all
25:59
right.
25:59
Sometimes a deadline will be missed.
26:01
Sometimes, we'll have higher sick time than we expect.
26:06
And I'm not saying accept it as in, you know, don't hold people accountable or yourself
26:11
accountable or address it.
26:13
It's just if we dramatize or we traumatize these things that naturally happen in
26:19
workplaces, then it's a problem as opposed to we look for solutions.
26:24
So if we expect that there are going to be blips as a leader, if we expect that we'll have
26:29
to address issues, then maybe we're not gonna be so resistant and that we can be resilient,
26:34
you know, that that framework, they accept model, applies to leaders as well.
26:41
I think I would do what you would role models as well as admit, and this was part of what you
26:46
you did earlier in our podcast.
26:48
I don't even know if you noticed it transparent in such a wonderful quality.
26:51
I just really wanna make it very transparent to people.
26:54
You admitted that you have made many failures in your business and and in your career, we
27:01
need to be honest as leaders with people.
27:03
You know what?
27:04
It took me 2 years to get the job.
27:05
So don't think that just because you're it's with it's week 3 that you should have had it
27:10
nailed by now.
27:11
I was in the same situation as you.
27:12
I mean, imagine the weight off of a new person's shoulders, if you said that, versus,
27:18
oh, I'm just gonna reiterate the expectation.
27:20
Start with humanizing it.
27:22
Put let's put human the human factor back in the in the work place and say, you know what?
27:27
It's normal to not get it right first time.
27:30
It's normal that it's gonna be overwhelming.
27:34
And so, you know, share share your struggles.
27:37
Or if you're going through something rough at home, you don't have to hide it from your
27:41
colleagues.
27:41
You know, I It's amazing how when I gave my notice, I gave 5 months notice when this our
27:47
whole situation happened to our family, And people said to me, wow, sir, I never would have
27:52
imagined that you were going through this because it was about 6 months of us cleaning up
27:56
our life in getting things in order before I could finally give my notice.
28:00
And, and I realized and hindsight, imagine if I had just been honest with my colleagues and
28:07
said, we are having the biggest crisis of our family's life right now.
28:11
And, I'm not gonna be performing at my best.
28:14
Or I'm not gonna get all my deadlines in time, or I need a bit of help.
28:18
Imagine how much better that would have been because I wore the burden of being a bad mom,
28:23
but also having to be an exceptional performer at work at the same time.
28:28
So being a leader, a great leader who's who Lafridge's failure to in its full capacity is
28:34
also acknowledging your own failure struggles, challenges, obstacles where you're not
28:40
naturally good at something where, you know, we're saying to somebody on the team, wow, you
28:46
sure have an ability to to create organized systems so fast.
28:51
I I I would love to have been gifted with that, or you have there's such a natural way of being
28:56
able to connect with colleagues.
28:58
I can't believe how in a month that you said have been here, you've created such strong
29:02
friendships and relationships already.
29:04
That's it took me a year to earn people's trust.
29:06
That's amazing.
29:07
You know, that and that's relates to what what I, you know, what I normally teach in my
29:11
corporate environment, which is around recognition, is that recognize people for their
29:16
strengths and and juxtapose it with how you may not be gifted in that.
29:21
That that is enough itself as a gift to to acknowledge have not only are they great at
29:27
something that you're not necessarily that that perfect edit as well.
29:31
So, you know, these are, I think, so much of and and the model in the book is, we've we have
29:39
to have a fairly resilient mindset, which is the accept part of the formula.
29:43
And then we have to have a failure, resilient context.
29:47
So loy leaders who are listening ask yourself Do I surround myself with people who allow me
29:53
to fail sometimes?
29:55
Does my boss do my peers do do the members of my team realize that I don't have to get it
30:00
right every time, and that's still okay.
30:03
And that we wanna learn from it.
30:04
We wanna figure out how to how to make it better.
30:07
I'm not let off the hook and never held accountable.
30:10
It's not that I don't know what is expected of me and those sorts of challenges, but it truly
30:15
is, I don't have to be perfect.
30:17
I'm not a machine.
30:18
You know?
30:18
And similarly, do I hold do I hold my folks accountable and yet I'm also I also am have a
30:26
very strong relationship with them in that they are they could come to me and talk about
30:30
struggles They can ask for help.
30:33
They can, you know, they will wanna participate in continuous improvement because they are not
30:37
afraid to point out when systems aren't working.
30:40
Every organization.
30:41
Yours, mine, GM, like, massive massive companies, the government of Canada, every
30:48
single company every team.
30:51
There are some systems that aren't working.
30:54
Do people bring those to your attention?
30:56
Do you ask people?
30:57
Do you celebrate the oops?
30:59
You know, do you have a something like a biggest oops award where you celebrate the
31:03
biggest problem that somebody's found?
31:06
Like, yes.
31:07
You know, we almost lost a client, and we didn't this time, but, okay, what almost made
31:12
us lose that client?
31:14
How can we fix that?
31:17
And, and and as opposed to what normally happens in workplaces is that people are afraid
31:22
to admit it.
31:24
They shame.
31:24
They blame.
31:25
They hide it.
31:27
Or if people feel ashamed, blame, and and that it's it's a bad mark on them.
31:32
So given that how failure resilient resistant we are as a culture, we have to create safety,
31:39
psychological safety, and we have 13 factors of psychological safety in the workplace now.
31:45
And every one of them, I would argue, you need to have a failure resilient context in order to
31:51
have true psychological safety.
31:53
And then and that's the tail end of this model is when people can people will have 3 options
32:00
when a failure and obstacle challenge hits.
32:02
They can deflate.
32:03
They can just mitigate the damage or they can elevate as a leader, you're I believe truly one
32:09
of your true tests, and this is I know your brand is authentic leadership.
32:13
To me, when it comes to failure, authentic leadership is that people can elevate when from
32:19
failure.
32:20
They do not stay in that stuck place they do not hide it.
32:24
They do we do not argue for status quo, and we certainly don't go backwards.
32:28
We look at the best of what is the bestest of what's been and the best of what could be, and
32:34
we move forward from there without without judgment or harshness and and yet would balance
32:40
with accountability.
32:42
And so that, you know, we can truly accelerate and and shine in our teams and in our
32:47
organization.
32:48
You know, that makes me think when I was an executive in health and wellness, and I would
32:54
manage about 50, companies.
32:56
There was about I would say maybe 25% of my portfolio at that time, I had contacts that
33:04
were if I were to do a personality inventory on them.
33:09
They were diametrical.
33:11
Whatever my my major trait was, you know, and my one that I needed to work on, those were the
33:19
ones that kept me up at night.
33:21
Because they were very meticulous with details.
33:24
So I'm a big picture thinker.
33:25
I'm a visionary.
33:26
I'm not so good with the microscopic.
33:29
So I managed those a lot of those companies for 10 years, Sarah.
33:32
I would sweat bullets going into those meetings.
33:34
I would I would over prepare because those people thought so differently from me because,
33:42
you know, everything would, you know, get it prepared for me.
33:44
The statisticians would give me the information.
33:47
I would get the marketing to give me the information my my assistant would and and I
33:50
would and that, you know, the night before those meetings, I would go over it and over it
33:55
because What used to happen is I would go in, and I wasn't meeting their needs.
34:02
So it forced me to learn their language and what was needed for them to get what they
34:08
needed about their their health and wellness strategy.
34:11
And initially, I would say, well, I don't This doesn't feel right.
34:16
You know, how am I gonna do better?
34:18
And now I look back at that particular, tenure in my life, and that was my biggest growth
34:23
because I knew when I went into those board meetings, I would get slice and dice quite
34:28
literally at the beginning.
34:30
But then, you know, what it forced me to do is to think is Okay.
34:33
I know how I want the information, but what is it that they need from me?
34:37
And it really helped me to grow through that failure.
34:41
So, you know, it's it just makes so much sense when you talk about looking at it from the
34:47
different perspectives versus everybody going along with what you think.
34:51
They think you wanna hear as a leader.
34:53
Right.
34:53
Oh, and if there's one thing that I, when I speak with CEOs and business owners, That is
35:00
the thing that keeps them up at night.
35:01
What are people not telling me?
35:03
Mhmm.
35:04
And so if you have a failure resilient context, people aren't afraid to tell you things.
35:08
I mean, I I I was a bit of a rarity probably in the last organization that I worked in where I
35:13
would tell the CEO things that he didn't wanna hear.
35:16
And I'd say this may be a career limiting move.
35:19
Do you wanna hear it?
35:20
And that was kind of our our, way of me saying you're probably not gonna wanna hear this.
35:26
And, and and, you know, if you were a different type of person, you probably would fire me by
35:30
telling you because you don't really don't wanna hear it.
35:33
But, you know, I can I think he considered me a trust adviser, and we're still colleagues to
35:39
this day?
35:39
I we could call each other up and be honest and try about anything even though we don't work
35:44
together anymore.
35:45
So, you know, honesty, I believe is true is the true element of what we're talking about here
35:53
and how honest are we right now in organizations?
35:58
Are we truly, you know, the whole difficult conversations movement arose, really, out of
36:03
people repressing, hiding, pushing down the stories they have about people, the the things
36:10
that have been unsaid, the hurts, the blame, the criticism, the the toxicity as well.
36:17
There would not be a multimillion dollar industry on how to how to have crucial
36:22
conversations.
36:23
If people had failure resiliency in their workplaces.
36:27
Mhmm.
36:28
So, you know, one, when you were talking, Roxanne about your portfolio, You know, I I
36:35
definitely agree that the things that aren't easy for us and we we face head on and we
36:39
think, okay.
36:40
This is a growth opportunity.
36:42
100% agree that those are things that are can be career defining and character building
36:48
moments in her career And I think we need to balance that with honoring and respecting the
36:53
people who work for us enough that when I realize I've got Roxanne whose big sure detail
36:59
not detail oriented, and I've got Jenna who's very detail oriented in specific and very black
37:04
and white.
37:05
Instead of organizing my my leadership team geographically, I think it might best serve
37:11
them and my clients to organize them by fit.
37:16
Meaning, we don't hire people because they're the physically closest person who lives to the
37:20
building.
37:21
We're supposedly hire people based on fit So why wouldn't we organize our teams that way
37:25
too?
37:26
And I can tell you in my career, some of the best choices I ever made in my in my leadership
37:32
We're about reorganizing the portfolios, people's responsibilities, the priorities of
37:38
our work, based on the people in the role that I have on my team right now and obviously
37:44
working with the clients about what their biggest needs were as opposed to saying, No.
37:48
We have to do this program.
37:50
And and and the person in this role has always offered that program.
37:53
You need to do it.
37:55
So I think that it's a balance of we want to push and encourage growth as much as possible
38:04
with knowing that there is naturally going to be a there's gonna be a limitation.
38:09
It's just like, Heather Moise became an Olympic Bob's letter not just because she was failure
38:15
resilient and and was willing to not always succeed, you know, her first Olympics, she
38:20
didn't actually meddle.
38:21
And had she only believe that a medal was success.
38:24
She probably wouldn't have gone back.
38:27
And with the failure resiliency, She also was an extremely talented athlete.
38:34
She was an, an amazing track star.
38:39
With great coaching and an incredible gene pool.
38:42
Her all of her her brother and her sister and her parents They are you can just tell by
38:47
looking at them.
38:48
These are very fit people.
38:51
Then she was on the national rugby team.
38:52
You know?
38:53
So I think and that was where she was recruited into the the sledding, the the, you know, our
38:58
sledding team for Canada.
39:00
She had natural talent that then she further honed and then had the mindset, failure,
39:06
resilient mindset.
39:07
So It is for the leaders listening to this podcast, I really, really encourage you to
39:14
honor and look at your people as individuals just like you did Roxanne and say, how am I
39:21
going to get the very best from them?
39:23
And then how am I going to support them when I when they are positioned to do their very best,
39:28
and they still do not succeed because of what's going on in their personal life because this
39:33
has been a huge growth because they're overwhelmed because we have put so much so much
39:38
work on people's plates these days.
39:40
How do we support them despite that?
39:43
That's, I think, where we truly get the best from people.
39:47
That's it's that combination there.
39:49
And I think that's a sweet spot Right?
39:51
I think but to your point, the vulnerability as a leader to recognize what are my strengths,
39:56
what are my limitations, how do I view the world, and how is how is it different for Jim
40:01
Jane, John, and then kinda trying to think of collaboratively, not just think tactically,
40:07
Yeah.
40:07
But think, you know, about what what is it that's Roxanne Field is good at, what needs
40:13
help with, is competent at, doesn't need to have doesn't have the skill, how does she need
40:18
to experience it?
40:20
And that takes a lot of, like you said, that's connection and getting to know people.
40:25
And sometimes you're gonna do it badly.
40:27
Like, I like the OOPS award.
40:28
I think that's phenomenal because we always talk about what we, you know, what are the wins
40:34
and how did we do, you know, what did we do well?
40:36
But I think you're equally as right as saying, what did we not do well?
40:40
What could of learned, what variables did we not take into consideration, and what things
40:45
were outside of our control.
40:47
Yeah.
40:48
And here's another question to add to that list.
40:50
Love those questions.
40:52
Why aren't things worse?
40:53
So it's it's it's a version of the the what's working around here, which is but also it's
40:59
that when we're acknowledging that something is not working, and yet it's not as bad as it
41:05
could be.
41:07
So there's this there's this beautiful whole conversation that can happen in a failure
41:12
resilient team or organization that allows you to explore things in a much deeper level.
41:18
You know, my background is health care.
41:20
And we had to legislate quality reviews in order for health care teams when there was a
41:27
critical incident to analyze it so thoroughly and deeply Why?
41:33
Because it's a litigious industry.
41:36
People don't wanna get sued.
41:37
I can't admit I made a mistake because it may be I may be blamed.
41:42
We we don't people feel like there's so much on the line.
41:46
I couldn't possibly admit a mistake because then everybody will judge me.
41:49
Will think that I'm a terrible clinician and there goes my career down the toilet.
41:55
Maybe, you know, we've we overwhelm our our busy middle managers and health care, some of
42:00
up to 250 direct reports.
42:02
So now we may have to surface the fact that we've put completely unreasonable expectations
42:07
on folks and yet we have no additional money to pay them in our strain health care system.
42:12
So, you know, but we had to legislate, you must do a root cause analysis if there is a near
42:18
miss that's very serious that somebody has had a, medication or a surgical or whatever the
42:24
issue whatever the type of intervention, but that person had serious consequences as a
42:30
result of it, or perhaps even lost their lives.
42:33
Like, It is it may be shocking for some Canadians to hear, and I'm believe me, have
42:38
have good faith in your health care system.
42:39
It is a great health care system.
42:41
And, the reality is nobody wants to admit that they were part of a system that created a
42:48
tragic circumstance because nobody shows up to do a bad job.
42:54
And yet, sometimes we have to legislate you must admit failure.
42:58
You must study failure because how are on the earth are we going to prevent it from happening
43:02
again?
43:03
For sure.
43:04
This you know, you and I probably could spend so much more time.
43:08
And I love that the term, failure resilience.
43:13
And I Yeah.
43:14
I hope you coined that, and because I love it.
43:17
And I think
43:18
Go for it.
43:19
Use it.
43:20
Everyone listening.
43:21
Use it.
43:22
I love it because I think if we can teach that, in our everyday lives either at home or at
43:29
work.
43:29
That's the gift.
43:31
Yeah.
43:32
Well, you know, we're we're experiencing that in our house right now.
43:37
My daughter just graduated grade 8 and she came within less than 1% away from honor.
43:44
The honors role in a very high performing, caliber of students and initially felt she felt
43:52
terrible And when you're fourteen and you're a girl, you know, you go it's very anxious
43:57
related time in your life.
44:00
We've had to live this lesson this week.
44:03
Is really honoring that she is brilliant and smart and point 7% or 5% or whatever that tiny
44:09
fraction less than 1% does not make you smart or not smart.
44:14
So that's that is part we've had a lot of failure resiliency conversations in our house,
44:20
not because anyone views her as a failure in this house except her Mhmm.
44:25
And that she gets a chance to redefine what her year, her great year has been.
44:31
And how she's ended her elementary career.
44:33
And she's getting to that point now.
44:35
It's taken a week.
44:36
She's very proud.
44:37
She works so hard.
44:39
She's You know, she's she's and and I'll admit it's it's was it's been a bit of a battle for
44:46
me of of speaking with the school and them not being willing to consider if that less than 1%
44:53
is close enough that we can't give her at least the ability to say that she she graduated with
44:59
honors.
45:00
And but I have to move on from it.
45:02
And I don't I don't really care about it as a mom.
45:04
Like, I'm going feel that she needs to get that to prove to me she's an incredibly talented
45:08
smart girl.
45:10
But it matters to her, which was, you know, which was why we kind of took this on even as a
45:15
conversation with the school.
45:16
And so she gets to now redefine what does intelligent look like?
45:21
What does smart?
45:22
What does working hard like?
45:23
What do I need to do in high school?
45:25
If this now is such a big goal of hers, what does she have to do in high school to be an
45:30
honor roll kid all the way through?
45:32
So It would it's been a struggle for a week related to that while we have colds and while
45:37
we have, like, we're overscheduled and, you know, all this all the things that happened at
45:41
the end of the year, but it's been a good thing.
45:44
And this is this is, I think, the, the gift of when we look at failure resiliency versus being
45:51
failure resistant is that we always have an opportunity discover, to uncover, to well, and
45:57
that's the flip.
45:58
That is the flip side of failures that there is another way if we choose to see it experience
46:03
it.
46:05
And I just wanna make sure everybody hears me loud and clear when I say, and you don't have
46:10
to do it immediately.
46:11
Being failure, resilience, does not mean.
46:13
You go, oh, thank goodness.
46:15
This failure's happened.
46:16
I'm so excited.
46:17
I get a chance to learn.
46:18
Now if you lose somebody you love.
46:21
If you lost your job, if you, you you know, you're if somebody takes hacks your computer
46:27
and you lose every You don't have to be like, this is amazing.
46:30
Oh, I get to learn something now.
46:32
No.
46:32
You're allowed to feel this is the worst.
46:34
This is awful.
46:35
I can't believe this happened.
46:37
You know, it it hap it it can the elevate can happen with time.
46:40
It's okay to deflate it first or just mitigate the damage.
46:44
Right.
46:44
That the flake can happen, and that, in fact, is part of being failure resilient as well is
46:49
to just be able to go, okay, this really does stink.
46:52
And and I'm a that is okay to feel that way.
46:57
It is okay to say, team, I need space.
47:00
My kid yelled at me before I came to work.
47:03
I am not in a good mood.
47:04
I just need 5 minutes before our team meeting.
47:08
Sorry we're starting late, but I or you guys go ahead without me.
47:12
I'm in the bathroom crying for 5 minutes.
47:14
So, yeah, failure resiliency is however you need it to be to be able to flip it for
47:21
yourself.
47:22
Well, Sarah, this is always a pleasure.
47:24
I know this is the second time you've been on my podcast.
47:27
What I want, you to tell everyone is where they can buy the book or, you know, any any
47:32
employers that are looking for, speaking events, what whatever you're needing, just let
47:37
them know where they can get ahold of you so they can spend some time with you if they're
47:41
needing.
47:41
Awesome.
47:42
Well, Roxy, thank you for having me on your podcast.
47:44
It's it's an honor and a privilege too.
47:47
So my website is greatnessmagnified.com.
47:50
And if anyone would like those tools or to learn more about the book, you can go to
47:55
greatnessmagnify.com/theflip side of failing.
47:59
You can also just Google it.
48:00
It's available on Kendall on Cobo.
48:03
You can buy it through Amazon.
48:05
Of course, you can buy it through my website.
48:07
Buy it through the website.
48:08
Just tell me if you want me to autograph it, happy to.
48:11
And, and, yeah, it's, it this new demo video coming out.
48:17
So if people want to check that out, we have people dance in the kiddo.
48:22
We we So we we really put our money where our mouth is when we talk about learning.
48:28
So And it don't worry, everybody.
48:30
It's not scary.
48:31
It's it's really, really fun.
48:33
I, and I have smiling audiences in my new demo video.
48:36
Think she does.
48:37
And she dances.
48:39
Yes.
48:39
I do dance.
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I do dance.
48:41
And she and she's and she's funny.
48:44
Thank
48:44
you.
48:45
So for everyone, you know, Sarah, always a pleasure.
48:48
And for everyone listening, I'm gonna end it on this note to say feeling resistant resilience.
48:57
Just keep just keep trying it and figuring out what you did wrong and what you could learn
49:02
from the experience and how do you elevate from that spot according to, her model, for
49:08
everyone.
49:09
If you needing more on me.
49:10
I'm a keynote speaker and a mental health and wellness specialist.
49:13
You can reach me at roxanderharsh.com.
49:16
So take care, Sarah.
49:16
We'll chat soon.
49:18
Thank you.
49:20
Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive health
49:26
change.
49:27
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
49:34
roxannederhaj.com/blueprint.
49:38
We'll see you next time.
49:39
An authentic living with Roxanne.