Latest / The Death Of Journalism / Episode Two Hundred Fifty One: Hail To The Redskins

Transcript

Episode Two Hundred Fifty One: Hail To The Redskins · The Death Of Journalism

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to episode two hundred and fifty one of the
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Death of Journalism Podcasts. My name is John Zigler. I'm
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: your host of today's show, The Epstein Madness Just Won't
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Go Away, and columnist Matt Lewis returns to the show
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: to tell us why Trump has been badly damaged by it.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Apparently Trump has been listening to the podcast because he
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: has suddenly gotten it on the Washington Redskins name controversy,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Stephen Colbert's late night show is getting canceled by CBS
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: and the left is having a meltdown over it. And yes,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: I'll talk about the viral Coldplay concert affair and more.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: We begin this episode of the podcast, as we have
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: for the last several episodes, with the latest in the
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: never ending insanity of the Jeffrey Epstein case. A guy
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: who's been dead for six years killed himself in prison
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: because he knew he was guilty and did not want
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: to live that sort of life. And for some reason,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: now it has exploded because the magabase had been promised
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: some blood a public execution, and now they've been told
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: not only are they not likely to get that public execution,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: but it seems as if they've been sold to bill
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: of goods by their trusted influencers and media personalities that
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: bought hook Line and Sinker into a massive conspiracy theory
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: that never made any damn sense to me. And I've
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: explained probably a dozen times on this podcast exactly why,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: especially when it comes to the issue of whether or
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: not Epstein killed himself, which he clearly did. And I've
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: explained many times why there is no other alternative scenario
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: that makes any sense whatsoever. But there's several other massive logical,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: catastrophic logical fallacies with the conspiracy theories on this whole situation.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: And it has been amusing to me to see Donald
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: Trump founder in an effort to try to get this
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: story behind him. He has clearly alienated, at least temporarily
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: a significant portion of his base of support. He's had
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: a meltdown at times, even attacking his own base. He
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: did that on social media and then in a statement
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: from the White House basically saying that some Republicans have
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: been duped by a democratic plot that he compared to Russia,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Russia Russia. Interestingly, I've not seen a lot of conservative
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: or right wing or maga media attacks on Trump for
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: going after the base. They've just kind of pretended that
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: didn't actually happen. But Trump has done almost everything he
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: could other than fire Pam Bondi, which is what it
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: seems as if the MAGA base wants, because she's the
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: one that was tasked with telling the base definitively that
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: there is no Santa Claus. Dan Bongino and Cash Battel.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: It kind of set Productate had kind of try to
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: slowly let the base know that there was no Santa Claus,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: but it was Pam Bondi that definitively did so, and
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: so she's being attacked because of it. And I really
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: do mean it when I used it the Santa Claus
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: metaphor and the Bloodluss public execution metaphor or imagery, because
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: that's really what's going on here. It's very medieval, it's
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: very pathetic, it's very absurd, and I do have to
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: say that it has been amusing seeing Trump try to
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: navigate it because he created this monster. He created this
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: conspiracy monster. His political life literally began with an absurd
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: conspiracy theory involving Barack Obama's birth certificate, and to see
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: him now flounder so significantly and see some of his
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: biggest supporters at least pretend to turn against him at
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: least temporarily. Has been amusing, But I have to say,
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: as someone who cares about the truth, I've also been
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: a bit frustrated by it because one, I'm forced to
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: defend Trump because I think Trump is probably the person
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: who's closest to correct in this whole situation. Now he
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: has a self interest because it's obvious that his name
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: is in the file involving Jeffrey Epstein. They were close friends.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: There's a new story out involving the Wall Street Journal
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: that is quite interesting, not because I think it's significant,
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: but because it is the Wall Street Journal, owned by
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: News Corp, same company that owns Fox News Channel, and
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump apparently tried to get the story killed and
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: was unsuccessful in doing so. The story was hyped big,
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: especially on the left, and oh my gosh, the Wall
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: Street Journal has a bombshell about to come out regarding
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. There was no bombshell. It
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: was a birthday message that was allegedly written by Donald
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Trump that was weird and sexual, but mostly weird. Long
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: before Epstein was ever publicly accused of any of the
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: things that ended up in his demise and his suicide.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: Trump is claiming he did not write it. It's pretty
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: extraordinary for the Wall Street Journal to take this kind
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: of chance. Trump is already saying he's going to sue
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: News Corp. Which is pretty rich on multiple levels. I
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: have to say that Trump's denial here is pretty vehement,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: and the message doesn't seem to sound at all like
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump. I think, and I'm going to get into
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: this a little bit later on, but I think that
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: there's a theory where, or at least a thesis a
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: scenario where Trump forgot that he participated in this and
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: maybe it was is only Maxwell who actually did the
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: writing of this message, and that Trump just said, Okay,
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: go ahead and do it, and he forgot about it,
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: and that's why he is credibly denying it. But that
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: somehow the Wall Street Journal feels comfortable enough and confident
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: enough to publish it against the highly highly litigious president,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: which in this environment, given what has happened at CBS
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: and ABC and at Facebook or Meta, I mean, that's
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: pretty ballsy on the part of the Wall Street Journal.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: But I have to say I don't believe, based upon
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: what we currently know, that Donald Trump literally wrote that
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: birthday message to Jeffrey Epstein. I also don't know what
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: significance it has other than the fact that they had
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: a relationship that was pretty close, which we already knew.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: But I have said numerous times in this podcast, and
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: this puts Trump in a very difficult spot because to
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: his conspiracy loving base, his actions look like he's covering
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: up a conspiracy, when what I think is happening is
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: he's finally telling the truth about this whole thing. I
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: think he wanted to avoid it. I think he allowed
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson to hold the belief about that Epstein being
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: murdered in prison that he knew was ridiculous and he
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: should have stomped it out at that time. We talked
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: about this multiple occasions on this podcast, but he didn't
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: want to have to deal with it. And then suddenly,
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: you know, he had to deal with it. And there
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: was no other play to be made here because there's
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: nothing in the files. There's no list, there's no indication
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: of other people who were engaged in sex trafficking, there's
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: no evidence that he was murdered in prison. So the
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: whole theory collapses, and now the media is way hyped
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: about this. I mean, the story about the Epstein birthday
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: message never would have gotten anywhere near the coverage had
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: it come out in another period of time when the
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: atmosphere was different and the people weren't so hyper focused
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: on this story, largely because they perceive, as our guest
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: at Lewis will momentarily, that Trump is in trouble, that
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: he's been wounded, that there's blood in the water. Now
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: I'm not convinced of that one hundred percent, but there
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: has been a lot of polling in recent days that's
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: been very negative to Donald Trump, especially on the issue
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: of the Epstein files. And you know, I just want
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: to mention one other thing with regard to why I
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: generally support Trump on this issue. One, I think he
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: has a correct view of what really transpired in this story,
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: that this was really an Epstein focused story, And I
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: think he has a pretty darn good sense that Islan
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: Maxwell was, if not innocent, she was clearly railroaded in
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: that federal trial that occurred in an environment that was
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: ripe for a miscarriage of justice because Epstein had killed himself.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: There was a bloodlust for justice and for someone to
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: pay for his crimes. And based upon what I perceived
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: to be essentially a joke of a trial, I think
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: that's probably what happened to Maxwell. I've said many times though,
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: is it possible that she was guilty of something? Sure?
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: Is it possible she enabled Epstein? Yeah. Is it possible
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: she had more knowledge than she admitted to or that
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: she should have known better. Yeah, all that is possible,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: But I don't. I believe at the very least, she
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: was grossly overcharged and that her trial was effectively a
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: joke or a railroading. And I think Trump understands that
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: he knew Maxwell. Maxwell was more well connected than Epstein
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: at certain points of her life. And I'm going to
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: get more to her in just a second. But you know,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: one of the things that's been talked about, and Trump
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: has tried numerous times to announce that's he's demanding the
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: release of Epstein file material, And of course nothing actually
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: ends up transpiring as of this taping. There's a controversy
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: over whether the House of Representatives is trying to recess
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: so they don't have to take a vote on Epstein,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: but nothing has actually come out as of this taping.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: But one of the things that that Trump has tried
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: to do is say that he wants the grand jury materials,
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: if they're credible, to be released. And I don't think
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: that's a great idea, and I think Trump even knows
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: that that's not a great idea. I mean, we know
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: from the Penn State Joe Paterno Jerry Sandusky case, the
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: grand jury material can oftentimes be total garbage. And my
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: guess is that there's an awful lot of total bs
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: and innocent people that would be implicated if these materials
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: were released, especially in this atmosphere where there's this presumed
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: cover up, there's this hyper focus, all this attention. It's
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: nuclear powered right now, and so somebody is going to
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: get unfairly destroyed if these materials are released willy nilly,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: And I think Trump is probably concerned about that, probably
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: partially because he knows he could get wrapped up in it,
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: but also other people that he probably has a very
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: good sense are innocent. And I think his instincts, as
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: is often the case, are pretty darn good. Here. Now,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: one of the things I say said in the last
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: episode of the podcast is that there was going to
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: need to be a distraction, and that James Comy was
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: probably going to be the focus. Former EMPTI director was
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: going to probably be the focus of a lot of
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: the distractions because it serves a lot of purposes to
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: attack Comy. And this isn't directly related, but it's certainly
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: somewhat related. Comy's daughter, Maureen Comy, who prosecuted Epstein and Maxwell,
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: I believe, and also p Diddy just got fired as
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: as in her role as a federal prosecutor by Pam Bondy.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Now I'm sure Trump enjoyed doing that because he despises
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: James Comy. And this is i think consistent with this
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: idea that they're trying to set up this narrative that
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: you know, at least when it comes to Epstein and Maxwell,
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: that there might have been problems with the prosecution if
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: they need to, and that Comy's daughter has been fired
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: as a federal prosecutor as a result. Now, as far
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: as Maxwell herself is concerned, and the current Attorney General,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: the Attorney General's office has announced that they are engaging
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: with Maxwell and her attorneys in trying to have a
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: meeting to discuss her knowledge of this sole situation. Now,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: this created quite a stir in Maga World, and not
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: unusual at all. I believe Magaworld completely misinterpreted. What is
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: the likely result of all this. I see no reason
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: why Maxwell wouldn't meet with prosecutors or with the Attorney
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: General's office. She has nothing to lose. There's a darn
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: good chance she is going to spend the rest of
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: her life in prison for something that she has never
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: admitted to actually doing, which is this series of sex
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: trafficking allegations that I don't believe were ever really proven
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: beyond a reasonable doubt in the federal court case against her.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: But you have to look, as I often say, at
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: her incentive structure, and I think her incentive structure is
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: very telling about the flaws in the popular Maga World
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: conspiracy narrative about this case. If Maxwell really had any
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: large body of evidence or knowledge implicating other powerful people,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: especially people that would have been very valuable for a
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: prosecution to be able to get a conviction on. Depending
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: on which administration was in charge at the time, Maxwell
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: already would have provided this information. She had a huge
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: incentive to do so at the time of her trial,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: which eventually ended up occurring during the Biden administration. But
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, can we please use our brains for a second, folks.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is a woman who lived a very
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: privileged life. She was incredibly connected. She claims to be innocent.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: She's still appealing to this day to the US Supreme Court.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: She is very ill suited for her life in a
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: federal prison or death in a federal prison, as if
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: anybody could be suited for such a fate, if she
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: had anything of value, she would have already provided it,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: which to me was always inherently very suspicious about the
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: nature of her guilt, because she was in a perfect possession,
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: given especially all the coverage of this case, to engage
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: in some sort of a plea bargain, and the prosecutors
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: would have been incentivized to do that because they had
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: a very weak case against her and she was not
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: the biggest fish to fry. So I can't imagine that
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden she's going to now come forward
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: with evidence implicating anybody significant in this case, because her
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: narrative is that she didn't do what she was accused of. Now,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: there are those that are highly skeptical of Trump that
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: are saying that this is a way for her to
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: try to exonerate Trump. Is if anyone's gonna believe her
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: at this point. I mean, she's a convicted felon sentenced
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: effectively to life in prison. But I'll be very curious
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: to see what happens with that. I mean, in a
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: logical world, learning that there's no there there in the
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Epstein files, and there's no Epstein list, and we know
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: for sure if you believe Dan Bongino and Cash Mattel
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: and Pam Bondi and Bill Barr and Donald Trump, all
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: of whom have to be in on this massive conspiracy,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: if you believe that Epstein really did kill himself, then
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: the largely the entire theory than conspiracy theory falls apart,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: which must, in a rational world make you at least
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: ponder the possibility that Maxwell got railroaded, if not totally,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: at least partially. And so it is in that context
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: that I was very interested that a friend of mine,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Matt Lewis, who's a never Trump conservative, longtime columnist, former
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: CNN contributor, currently in La Times, call honest. He wrote
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: a column for the La Times with the general gist
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: of Trump's Maga spell is broken, even his base knows
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: he's a lane duck. And this was all because of
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: their reaction to the Epstein controversy, and so I wanted
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: to have Matt on to talk about that and some
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: other issues that are in the news that I thought
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: he might be able to provide some interesting context for
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: and so he joins us. Now, Matt lowis welcome back
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: to the Death of Journalism podcast.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Hey, John, great to be back.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: So you've waded into this whole Epstein mess and I
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: asked you to come on for a couple of different reasons.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: One because I've been talking a lot about this from
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: a bit of a contrarian perspective. You and I have
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: shared this moniker of being a never Trump conservative for
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: quite a long time, and you wrote a column that
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: was picked up by, among other places, of the Los
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Angeles Times, which is weird and up itself, given that
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: I live in Los Angeles and have seen the evolution
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: of the LA Times. But that's another story maybe for
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: later on. And basically your point was that Trump's magas
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: spell is broken because of the Epstein situation, and even
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: though his base knows that he's a lame duck. So
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: there's a couple different aspects of this. It seems like
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: your major focus is on the political impact of the
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Epstein mess on Trump, and there is some data to
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: support your thesis. Certainly, in most recent days there's been
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: some really horrific polling with regard to Trump and specifically
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: the Epstein case. So go ahead and make your argument
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: first on the political front, as far as the impact
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: that you see this as having on Donald Trump, Right.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: So I don't want to overplay this, Right, We've all
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: written Donald Trump's obituary, you know, saying bad things about
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: John McCain the Access Hollywood tape, and the guy is
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: super resilient, you know, he's like the monster that keeps
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: reanimating and coming back. But this does feel different John,
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: partly because of how long this has lasted. We're on
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: week two at least, of this scandal really plaguing him
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: as he tries desperately to change the subject by throwing.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Out culture you know, cultural war staff.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: And controversies, and he hasn't been able to change the subject.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: And I think the key is really two things.
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: One, Obviously, the Epstein controversy is something that his base,
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: including the podcast influencers, among his kind of the elites
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: on the MAGA right are really interested in this in
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: a way that I don't think that they've been offended
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: by anything else he's ever done, even though he's done
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: outrageous things in the past. But the other thing John,
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: and I think this is probably the most underrated aspect,
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: is that Donald Trump, I believe, is now seen as.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: A lame duck.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: Always before, if you were hedging your bets, if you
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: were trying to get head, the smart bet on the
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: right was always to stick with Donald Trump, no matter what.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: I do think that that is beginning to change. That
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: there is a sense that, look, if you're an influencer,
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: if you're a podcaster, you're going to want to have
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: a career in five or ten years. And right now
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: it's not clear that being with Donald Trump and the
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: deep state is the smart bet. So anyway, that's my
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: opening spiel.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, And I'm skeptical of that, partially because of your
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: disclaimer at the beginning that we've been through this many
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: many times before. I do think that Trump has been
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: hurt by this. I think there are definitely people within
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: his base that are speaking out against him that never
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: have previously and never would. My theory. See I find
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: this story to be fascinating, probably for reasons that are
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: different maybe than yours and most people. I think it's
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: an incredible psychological study about human beings in the social
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: media age and how conspiracies are now allowed to run
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: rampant because you have an ability to have other people
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: support your crazy view, when it used to be that
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: you were just alone in your crazy view. And now
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: we've gotten to the point where influencers and reputable, allegedly
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: reputable media people are deeply invested in the conspiracy theory.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: And I think that Trump's great crime here is that
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: he is effectively told the people that are deeply invested
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: in this story that there is no Santa Claus. And
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: he's been in fantic that there's no Santa Claus. And
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: he's even basically said, you're a bunch of idiots for
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: thinking that there ever was a Santa Claus. And I
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: find myself, Matt in the very straight position of well,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: I do think that there is some irony and a
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: little bit of Choden freud that Trump would be hoisted
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: on the petard of his own conspiracy tendency. I actually
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: think Trump is right. I think there is no Santa
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Claus in this story, and I think that he is
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: is being punished for basically allowing his base to believe
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: in Santa for far too long. And now when it's
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: time to finally tell them the truth that they don't
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: know how to handle it. What do you make of it?
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: Faintly, there's some elements of truth to that point, right, So,
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: for example, I don't know that there is a client list.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: There very well may not be.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: If I were.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Epstein, I would not be stupid. There is not a
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: client list.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: There is not a curse.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: But having said that, John, I do think it stands
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: to reason to me, it seems unlikely to me that
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: Epstein was involved in this human trafficking just for himself,
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: that there weren't other people implicated. And the fact is,
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: so far it's really just been been Epstein and his
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: accomplished Maxwell who've actually done any time. So I do think,
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: you know, David French over at the Dispatch made a
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: really good distinction. He called it, I think it was
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: big Epstein and little Epstein. Right, So big Epstein is
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: this crazy conspiracy theory that involves like anti Semitism and
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: Pizzagate and drinking blood and weird stuff, right, But then
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: there's the what he calls I think he called it
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: little Epstein, which is there probably was a conspiracy that
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: certainly is bigger than.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Just two people.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: And so it does seem like Trump is trying to
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: cover up little Epstein, but in fact he's right that
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: there isn't this big Epstein. There is the whole QAnon
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: thing is is obviously crazy.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, there's so many different elements to the story,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: and I don't want to get us confused, but I
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: would have liked to try to hit on as many
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: as possible. So let me address what you just said there.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: It's my view, and having investigated many more of these
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: sex abuse cases than I ever would have dreamed I
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: would have ever gotten myself into, and in my opinion,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: becoming an expert in both the media's handling of them
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: as well as the nature of reality, it is my
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: view that Epstein was clearly guilty. However, I don't know
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: how much you've looked into the Maxwell trial, but to me,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: that was a joke. We have and we have an
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: explanation for why her trial was a joke. There was
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: a moral panic after Epstein killed himself and there was
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: a thirst for blood or justice. People needed someone to
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: go to prison because he killed himself. And those are
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: circumstances in a sex abuse case, Matt, that are extremely
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: dangerous and very vulnerable to a misjustice, a miscarriage of justice.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Now I'm not saying she was innocent. Is it possible
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: that she enabled what Epstein was doing? Did she have knowledge,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: you know, did she commit crimes? I'm open to all
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: of that. I'm telling you though her trial was a joke.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: And you know, we are doing this interview on a
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: day where one of the big stories is that the
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Attorney General's office is reaching out to her to do
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: an interview, and Magaworld thinks that somehow she's going to
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: finally give them the material that they want and prove
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: that this conspiracy is true. And I'm thinking, you people
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: are such morons. You do not even not under You
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: do not understand the basic reality that if Maxwell had
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: anything close to what Magaworld wants to believe that she does,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: she would have used that to plea bargain years ago.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: This is an extremely privileged woman who is uniquely unsuited
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: for a federal prison. She would have done anything she
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: could have to reduce her sentence if she was guilty
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: and had information that would reduce that sentence by implicating
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: other people. She did not do that. Logic dictates akham
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: raisor dictates that my view of this is correct, that
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: she was not part of a massive conspiracy to sex
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: traffick to lots of other people because that didn't exist,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: which is why they have put out the statement the
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: Attorney General did against their own self interest saying guess what,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: we don't have any evidence against other people sex trafficking.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: And the core to this whole conspiracy theory domino effect
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: is the BS theory that Epstein was murdered in a
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: federal prison. If you take away him not being murdered,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: which is clearly the case, he clearly committed suicide. There
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: is no remotely logical alternative scenario because we don't have
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: a goddamn suspect. You know how difficult it is to
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: get into a federal prison, Matt, I'm sure you do.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: We know we know the names and identities of every
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: single person that was in that prison when he died.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: So if he was murdered, give me a goddamn suspect.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: There is no suspect because it didn't happen that way.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: So my point here is when you look at this logically,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: the whole conspiracy theory collapse collapses. And I actually think
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Trump understands that, and he understands that within this, this
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: file and specifically the grand jury transcript is a bunch
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: of garbage that would implicate innocent people, maybe including himself,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: and that's why he's against it. Tell me what's wrong
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: with my logic here, all right?
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: So I'm so interestingly my dad was a prison guard
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: for thirty years. Although that does not make me anywhere
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: close to an expert or.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: It's an interesting thing to know. Okay, go ahead, And.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: It is interesting.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: I think this is one of those weird occasions where
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: I am more conspiratorial or at least skeptical of of.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: This than than you are. Zigg. I'm not a as
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm an and anti conspiracy person. So I mean,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: I I don't.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: Believe, but I think I'm probably my reputation as probably
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: being for more of a noormy, but in this case,
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: I'm probably more like I think. So it does seem
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: weird to me, right, that like Epstein attempted suicide once
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: he was on suicide watch.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: The guards apparently aren't paying attention.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: He uh, he was suspicious that the guy who tried
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: to commit suicide and was on suicide watch committed suicide.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: You think that's.
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: Sammers are missing like three minutes of film. You don't
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: believe in government incompetence, you know, I mean, I get look,
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: I get Acam's razor and and certainly, you know, you
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: make a good case there about the bureaucrats despite the
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: fact that my dad was a prison guard. He's dead now,
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: but I think he would have said, yes, most prison
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: and guards are are not are not? You know, the
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: average prison guard is not, you know, uber a competent.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: But look, your point is well taken. It seems like
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: a whole bunch of uh of things. Though you have
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: to believe, like, uh, you know, where's the three minutes
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: of the video?
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: Why what's up with that? For example?
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: Have weird stuff? I understand that that's weird, but it
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: doesn't You need an alternative explanation that is remotely logical
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: and unlesson until you can give me a suspect. I'm
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: not asking for much. I'm asking for a suspect in
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: order for him to have been murdered in prison, and
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: you agree if he if he committed suicide, just his
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: it's clear to me and everyone else. And by the way, Dano,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: it's clear to cash. But Tell it's clear too, yeah, Bondy,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump, it's clear to I can't trust. I can't.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: I can't trust any of the people you just name,
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: because I think they've all betrayed our trust, partly by
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: being conspiracy theorist so like. But but look, John, he
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: could have maybe they looked the other way and let
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: him commit suicide.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: You know, maybe it's Bill Barr is part of this conspiracy,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: the guy who was federal prison.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: This goes all the way to the top.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, how does how do you fit Bill Barr
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: into this conspiracy? Man? He was running the federal prison
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: as attorney general at that time. How does he fit
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: into the conspiracy? John?
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: I am not advocating the conspiracy theory. What I'm saying
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: is I think there's a lot.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: I don't think.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: It's it is not obvious to me that Epstein committed suicide.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: But I'll just said that what would.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: What would you need? What would you what would you need?
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: Or or how do you prove a negative I mean,
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: I can't prove that Oswald acted alone.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Like, it's very difficult to You.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Need an alternative scenario that fits with the facts. And
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: you you know what I mean, there's suspect.
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: There's a million potential theories. What about this Donald Trump's
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump's president at the time. Donald Trump has somebody
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: deliver a message to Epstein. You know, we've tried to
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: kill yourself before. You know what, We're not going to
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: put another We're not going to put another inmate in
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: here with you tonight. The guards are going to be
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: taking a nap between one and two.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know what it was on.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: But what you just theorized, by the way, what you
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: just theorized, is totally different than Epstein didn't kill himself.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: You're making you are making by the way. I am
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: not against that theory. I am not against the theory
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: which there's no evidence for. But it's at least plausible
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: that Epstein was allowed to kill himself in prison because
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: of whatever reason. Maybe I mean, did he pay off
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: a guard, did he did he get information about when
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: the right time to do it was. I mean that
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: those are possibilities, but that doesn't change the basic reality
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: that he did kill himself, making the argument for murder.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is it's still a conspiracy theory.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: It took a lot of coordination for people to not
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: for a video, for the videos to not be the video.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: Is not recording at that time.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: Uh, he doesn't have an inmate in there with them
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: for whatever reason, the guards aren't paying attention, and he's
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: the one guy who presumably could implicate.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: A lot of power.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: There are a lot of powerful people could have been implicated.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Matt at every single level. There are several pillars to
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: this story. They all collapsed the Maxwell not doing a
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: plea bargain element of the story, the Epstein didn't really
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: get murdered element of the story. But then there's another
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: one that you have a I don't know if you've
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: ever considered that there's a big problem. In order to
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: believe the essence of this massive sex trap and conspiracy,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: you have to believe that a lot of very prominent,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: very rich, very powerful men engaged in illegal underage sex
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: with minors and other than in the Prince Andrew situation,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: which I have very strong opinions about, not one, not
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: one lawsuit has ever been filed by any of these
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: dozens of victims when they would get massive publicity, potentially
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: massive amounts of money in an environment where we've seen
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: this happen time and time again, where there's blood in
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: the water, there's money to be had, and hundreds of accusers,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: oftentimes not even credible ones come out of the woodwork.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Where are the victims?
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: Matt All right, Well, a few things here.
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: One, we've seen Harvey Weinstein, P Diddy, Bill Cosby, rich powerful,
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: famous men who got away with things. In fact, Bill
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: Cosby actually did get away with it for decades until
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: the levy broke. In the case of USI kraignant farmne
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: I believe there is a woman who accused Epstein and
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: Trump of she didn't she.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: You tell me in nineteen ninety five. She does not
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: accuse Trump of anything. She says that she told the
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: authorities to look into Trump, she has no actual allegation
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: against and then the MEI the media is latching on.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: This is the hilarity of this where because of Trump's
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: mishandling of the story, even you know, right and left
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: wing media are giving this story way more attention than
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: they would have ordinarily or should. But you're if you're
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: making the argument that somehow, let me make me accusers
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: are afraid to come forward because of Bill Cosby and
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein and p Diddy. That's that's no, that's only
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: to establish that we have a pattern of very rich,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: famous guys actually doing stuff like this and getting away
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: with it for years.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: But let me make this other Einstein's in prison, yeah, now.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: And how did he just did? He just got convicted
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: and bo Cosby was was convicted though it was later well.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: They finally got a turned too, They finally got to
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: But but let me make this other point, John, the
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: people who made these allegations, I'm just looking, I'm just I'm.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Talker Carlson today. I'm just asking questions.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: But but there's not a real good name to be
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: using with me, man.
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: But do you know who actually made they like seriously
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: made these allegations. People like Cash Patel, people like Dan Bongino,
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: you know, the director of the FBI and the deputy director.
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: They actually said there you know who said there's a
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: client list, Pam BONDI said it's on my desk right now.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: Okay, hold on a second. First of all, as you
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: well know, Cash Patel and Dan Bondi have said unequivocally
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: that Epstein killed himself, and now they have right because
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: now they're in power, they've seen the actual evidence, and
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: they're not campaigning for their MAGA jobs anymore. So, I mean,
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: they trust me. There's no self interest for them to
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: tell the truth on this. As far as Pam Bondi, Matt,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: I'm really stunned that you're latching on to the Pam
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: Bondi saying that there was an Epstein list. I'm sure
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: you've seen that interview. She was doing a remote interview,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: not in studio. She gets asked about a list. In
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: her mind, she thinks it's a reference to the file.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: In her answer, she references the JFK assassination file and
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: another file. I can't remember which one, whether it was
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: Robert Kennedy or MLK, whatever it was. In her mind,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: she conflates the word list in the question to file,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: and people misinterpret her answer.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: I don't think that's a lot you're giving the lot
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: of she.
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: Is the she at the time was the sitting Attorney
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: General of the U took office.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: This wasn't even in the top one hundred things in
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: her priority list. She was kidding me, Matt. This is
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: the way the world, real world works.
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: I specifically asked so about there if she was going
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: to release the Epstein crime on Matt.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's sitting all my interpreted list as file because
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: she's probably not a conspiracy knight who is a job
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: enough to think that there's a client list within the
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: Epstein file.
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: But she hasn't even looked at yet. She hasn't released
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: the file yet either. All she released were of those
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: silly binders that said phase.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: One, that was stupid, that was unbelievably stupid. I'm not
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: defending the way Pam Bondi has handled this. I'm just
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: saying that there is a very very simple logical Ockham's
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: razor explanation for why she conflated the words list and file.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: And by the way, what is your alternative scenario. Your
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: alternative scenario, Matt talk about crazy, is that she knew
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: there was a list, She admitted that there was a
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: list on television, and then all of a sudden has
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: to go back and reverse herself a few months later.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: What's the logic in that?
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: I'm merely establishing the fact that we cannot take.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: Their word for anything.
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: And that we really have no reason to trust anything
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: that they say, because I think they've disqualified themselves in
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: terms of being honest brokers, Okay, by worst engaging in Okay, So.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: There's one more major problem. So your part of this
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: story has massive problems with there's no suspect in the
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: murder of Epstein, there's no bargain hold on.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: Here's my point, John, my only point. I'm not saying
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: that I'm not saying he killed himself. I'm not saying
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: he didn't kill himself. I'm not saying that there's a
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: client list, and you know, I don't think there is
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: a client list. What I am saying is I think
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: this is really phishy. I think it's very weird, and
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: I'm not at all confident of anything. And I think
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: that Trump, to your point, Trump, I think has exacerbated us.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: On that wee can agree. But just to be clear,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: the people in your boat have massive problems in that
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: we have no suspect in the alleged murder. We have
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: no plea bargain for Maxwell, which she absolutely would have
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: done if she had information consistent with this massive conspiracy.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: We do not have anywhere near.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: The conspiracy theory, John, But I mean no, at that point,
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: At that point, Matt Epstein is dead, She is no
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: one to protect.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: She just signed her life away to spend it in
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: a federal prison. Don't give me that bullshit. That's really what.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: I'm saying is if you truly believe that this is
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: a conspiracy theory that goes very far up, that involves
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: very powerful people, probably bipartisan, who what are they.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Going to do to her, Matt? What are they going
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: to do to her? What's worse than her being in
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: federal prison in the rest of her life?
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: Maybe she commits suicide in that federal prison, you know, suicide.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: I don't like it, But well, you have to presume
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: then that Epstein was murdered, which he wasn't. So you're
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: your your logic here is extremely weak. So I'm just finish.
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: What I'm saying is once So either either we sort
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: of take the ex the so called experts at their word, okay,
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: and that's one way of looking at the world, or
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: we believe maybe there's some things they're not telling us.
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: Actually maybe we don't think it's perfectly plausible. Once you
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: open the door, Once you opened the door to that
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: second that second door, all bets are off, man.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: All right, let me just let me just finish my point.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: So there's there's no suspect in the murder of Epstein,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: there's no plead bargain from Maxwell. There's nowhere near enough
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: victims coming forward with allegations that could make them tons
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: of money against highly recognizable people. By the way, some
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: of them have already been misidentified and and had false
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: allegations against them, like a Dershowitz. And now here's the
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: fourth problem that I want you addressed you to address
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: before we move off. Trump lost the twenty twenty election.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: There was four years of a Biden Department of Justice.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: How the fuck? How the fuck does it make any
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: goddamn sense when Trump was running for president for two
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: years and they were going after him with everything they
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: possibly had on the law fair front, that if there
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: was anything implicating Hammer or the Trump administration in an
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: Epstein conspiracy, that not one word was ever leaked by
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: the Biden DOJ in those four years leading up to
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: the twenty twenty four election. How does that make any
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: goddamn sense.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: It's very curious, But I will give you three possible theories. First,
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: entirely possible that I'm Donald Trump is clearly in the
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: files in the sense that he was friends. We know
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: he was friends with Epstein, And it's entirely possible that
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump is not involved in this, but that other
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: people who are powerful powerful are.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: In order for there to be a massive conspiracy, Trump
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: has to be protecting something. And we know he only
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: gives a shit about himself. So if he's not implicated,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: then then what's he protecting? Why? What's the what's with
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: him running this massive conspiracy that involves Bill Barr and
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: Pam Bondi and Dan Bongino and cash. But tell how
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: does that work?
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm not saying that I buy into this, but
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: the aforementioned Tucker Carlson, I can tell you, has postulated
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: the theory that Donald Trump himself is innocent, but he's
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: for whatever geopolitical reasons, he's protected. I think Israel, by
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: the way, John, I think Israel comes into this theory.
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: Uh that that you know the mesade and and uh.
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: But but that Trump theory one would be that Trump
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: is not implicated himself, but he is part of a
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: cover up because powerful influential people or on the list
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: Trump wants to protect them.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: Now, your point I think.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: Is valid, which is, when's the last time Trump did
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: anything to help someone else?
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: You know? But I'm just telling no sense. Okay, One
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: last thing on this. I think so Trump is threatening
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: to sue the Wall Street Journal because they put forward
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: this birthday card that Trump allegedly wrote to Epstein well
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: before he was publicly accused of any of this. So
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: I'm not even sure what the relevance is. If it's
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: a real card, it's super strange. I don't even know
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: what the theoretical relevance of it is. It doesn't sound
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: at all like Donald Trump to me, and Trump is
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: vehemently denying its authenticity. What do you think is going
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: on in that particular situation, Because it's obviously the Wall
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: Street Journal NewsCorp. Rupert Murdoch, Fox News Channel, this is friendly,
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: you know, fire, Yeah, coming from the from the Wall
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: Street Journal, and Trump is as vehement as I've ever
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: seen him in his denial. I don't know what to
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: make of that story other than it does not sound
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: like anything I've ever heard Donald Trump right before, and
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: the denial is awful, vehement. But what do you make
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: of it?
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: I have a lot of thoughts number one. I agree.
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: I doubt if Donald Trump wrote it. Somebody I was
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: listening to on a podcast had an idea, which would
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: be that, like you know, Gallaine Maxwell, however you pronounce
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: her name, she's tasked with putting together these you know,
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: fiftieth birthday gift for Epstein, which involves notes and letters
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: from his friends. She goes to Trump she basically writes it.
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: That's one theory. It seems plausible to me. Look, I
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: think the Wall Street Journal they're serious. I mean, they're
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: not going to especially when it comes to accusing the
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: President of the United States of something. I don't think
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: that they're going to be sloppy or make a mistake.
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: I think clearly this is something that was done with
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump's impromoder, even if he didn't write it himself.
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: And I will say, the things he wrote in that
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: letter are are weird. They seem coded to me, stuff
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: like you know, we've got this and Maxwell wrote it.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: I thought Maxwell wrote it. Man.
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: I think it's entirely possible she did. It could be
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: some all part of some weird inside joke. But the
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: thing it is weird. It seems coded. It's not a
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: normal like happy birthday, John, you know, happy birthday, Zig.
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: It was stuff about this enigma and these secrets that
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: we have together, and you know it's bizarre.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: Well, what would be the alternative scenario as far as
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: Trump is concerned? And I think I have one, and
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: I'll throw it past you. So Trump doesn't really write this.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: He may have given his approval approval for this. It
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: happens a long time ago, he breaks up his relationship
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: with Epstein. Obviously his world has dramatically changed since then,
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: and he forgets that he ever participated in this. So
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: in his mind, he never did this, and so his
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: denial is actually sincere because he's like, that doesn't sound
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: like me. I don't I didn't write that. And and
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: maybe he gave his approval and just totally forgot about it,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: and that in a weird way, he's right. And the
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal is on at least somewhat solid tenuous
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: ground in claiming that he was the writer of this.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: What do you make of that theory?
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: I think it's totally possible, and I think that, you know, look,
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: Trump has a way of conveniently forgetting things that he
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: wants to forget. I think this is part of his
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: power of positive thinking, sort of the way he manifests
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: things like I think he could take a lie detector
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: test based on the you know, premise that he won
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: twenty twenty election.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: I think he could probably pass a lie detector test.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: So I don't think he could. He's actually admitted that
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: he lost a couple of times.
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right, he has done that a couple of times.
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: But I do think he has this ability to believe
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: what he wants to believe as well.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Oh sure, Oh that's how he comes up with golf
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: scorers that are in the low seventies the way. Let
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: me ask all those club championships.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: I'm not a golf guy, you know that.
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: But I'm watching Stick the Mark Maren Owen Wilson, Vieta.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Are you watching this?
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: I feel badly for you. My wife when I watched,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: we watched the first two episodes and couldn't take it anymore.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: So I'm watching it with my son. It's it's pretty
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: absolutely awful.
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: Well I can't I can't speak to the golf part
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: of it, you know, I know it's terrible.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: It's just awful. And I wanted to like it, and
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: my wife wanted to like it. And it was just terrible. Okay,
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: all right, two other things. I actually don't think that
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: this next issue is totally unrelated to Epstein, because I
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: happen to believe, at least in the way I'm interpreting
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: this story is as an obvious attempted distraction from Epstein
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: and to give the magabase what they want. I'm referring
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: to the Tulsi Gabbert effort to release information allegedly implicating
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Barack Obama and his administration and the entire Russia Gate fiasco.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: And I have to be very very honest about this, Matt,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: I am incredibly biased against this entire narrative for a
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: bunch of reasons. One, the timing smells the high heaven
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: because it seems like Tulsi Gabbert rushing to give MAGA
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: what they want as in the way of a distraction
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: and going after the deep state. Also, the people that
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: have been carrying the story media wise are not the
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: most credible. The Greg Jarretts of the world, the Maria
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: bartar Roma, that's who she did the in he first
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: interview with to me, that's a red flag right there,
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: you know. The Jesse Waters of the world. This to me,
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: doesn't have anybody credible standing up to it. And then finally,
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: my biggest suspicion is similar to the one that I
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: expressed to you about what happened to the Biden DOJ
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: from twenty twenty one to twenty twenty four with regard
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: to Epstein. We have a massive problem with this entire narrative,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: and that is Donald Trump was president for four years
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: and his DOJ had whatever information is intelligence agencies had
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: whatever information Kelsey Gabbert is claiming to have, and yet
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: they said nothing about it or didn't reveal it. So
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, I am inherently extremely biased again and wasn't
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: selling where are you on this?
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: Well, wasn't Marco Rubio like chairman of a committee, a
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: Senate committee that reviewed this a few years ago and
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: concluded that, yes, indeed Russia did interfere with the election.
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: It was not this positive, but they did, you know,
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: hack the DNC and YadA, YadA, YadA, Like I thought
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: this was settled and in fact, and you know sort
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: of that there was a consensus even from Rubio and
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: the Republicans that this happened, but that it didn't swing
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: the election. So I don't even know why this is
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: obviously we know obviously you and I know why this
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: is coming up now, but I feel like this is
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: settled law at this point or out to be.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: Well. My whole opinion on the Russian Gate situation is
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: a bit contrarian, much like my opinion on Epstein, in
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: that I actually think that the core issue was that
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump was trying to use the Republican presidential nomination
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: as leveraged to get putin to approve a Trump tower
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: in Moscow, and that Trump back then didn't realize that
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: that was the type of thing he could get away
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: with with his base, and so he was trying to
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: hide that effort. That's why he had Michael how And
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: lie to Congress about it. People don't understand that, and
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: so I think it was that was the core sin,
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: if you will, and that you had a series of
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: strange coincidences that were berthed out of that effort to
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: conceal the attempt to make a Trump tower in Moscow,
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: and people on the left went overboard and misinterpret everything
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: because they so desperately wanted the twenty sixteen election to
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: be illegitimate, and it gets spiraled out of control until finally,
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: you know, Muller testifies, and we realized that he doesn't
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: know what the hell he's doing and he doesn't have
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: very much. But it wasn't he had nothing. He didn't
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: have nothing. There were serious allegations in the Muller report,
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: and so I really get upset. I mean, the media
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: blew it, the Democrats blew it, Muller blew it, but
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: I really get upset when people claim there was nothing
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: at all. Yeah, to the Russia's investigation.
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: There was an Oval Office meeting where they you know,
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: came and said like we can we can give you
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: or no, Actually it wasn't an Oval Office meeting. It
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: was a Trump Tower meeting during the election, right when
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: when they came and said, we can give you some
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: info about Hillary and and all of that. And John, look,
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: you and I both know that Bob Barr, the aforementioned
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: Bob Barr, really screwed over Mueller with that issue.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: Bill Barr and I and I was very critical of
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: Bill Barr at the time because I think he did
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: Muller wrong. But that actually, you know, increases his street
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: credit allegedly in the Trump world, because because I think
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: he did it on behalf of Donald Trump. But look,
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: I think everybody got it wrong on Russia Gate. And
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: what was annoying to me.
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: I was a CNN contributor at this time, and they
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: were flying me up to New York to do like
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: CNN Prime Tom and I kept hoping to, you know,
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: be able to talk about something I knew about or
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: that I could talk somewhat intelligently about. And every freaking time, man,
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: it'd be like five o'clock and the New York Times
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: would dump some it would be like this, like breathless story,
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: like Trump campaign, Trump Political Operatives, so and so met
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: with Surrogey Barishnikov at you know, in Moscow at two fifteen,
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean, And like now, then the
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: whole segment that I was supposed to be there to
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: do would be hijacked. And the worst part wasn't if
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: they bumped me. It would be if they put me
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: on to talk about it. And it was like, well, well,
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: I have to see how this plays out.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: It doesn't look good, but we don't.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: You know. It was just I remember it well and
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: you're describing it very well. But you know, my one
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: of the reasons I have no real sympathy for Trump
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: on the Russia Gate story, which was blown. I want
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: to make that clear. It was. It was a terrible
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: day for the media, and it discredited them with huge
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: portions of the public. It was almost as bad as
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: COVID in my opinion, as far as public trust, especially
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: on the right. But when you're Donald Trump and during
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: a campaign at a public rally, you say the words
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: almost exactly, hey, Russia, if you're listening, try to hack
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: into Hillary Clinton's emails. And when Robert Muller finds evidence
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: that that night agencies connected to the Russia government tried
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: to do exactly that, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You don't
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: get the claim that this is all about nothing. You
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: stepped in it. You don't do that. Maybe don't do
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: that if you don't want to be accused of having
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: Russia colluding with your campaign.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: In the same world, that's an open and shutcase. That's
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: game over, right right. It happened in broad.
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: Daylight, And honestly, that's how Trump gets away with a
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: lot is by doing it behind the scenes, but in
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: the you know, in the open.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: All right, last thing I want to talk to you about,
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: and I'm very curious to your opinion on this. You're
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: a sports fan, you used to live in d C.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: You now live in West Virginia. I lived in d
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: C when I went to Georgetown, and I was a
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: sportscaster in my first incarnation of my career. And while
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: I was never a Washington Redskins fan, I did work
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: for the CBS affiliate in d C during the glory
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: years of the Redskins. They were carrying the Redskins games.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: Was Glenn Brenner there then.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: Glenn Brenner, a genius among genius, is the person I
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: respect most that I have ever let me just put
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: it this way, not respect most, the most talented person
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: I've ever worked with in my entire career with sportscaster
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: Glenn Brenner at the CBS affiliate in Washington, an absolute
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: fucking genius, A genius. Uh. Anyway, So I have a
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: lot of a finiity for the Red Skin name. I
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: think it was an absolute abomination, abomination that the Redskins
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: were forced at gunpoint to change it under you under
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: a benik As premise that it was somehow inherently racist.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: I have said on this podcast, as I'm sure you
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: don't know this, but I've been campaigning for weeks for
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: Trump to use the leverage that he has in this
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: stadium situation to try to influence the Washington commanders to
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: change their name back. I've even pledged to become a
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: Trump supporter if he actually pulls this off, thinking there's
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: no chance that he actually will. But now, all of
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: a sudden, much to my surprise and pleasantly surprised, it
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: appears as if at least as this taping, that Trump
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: is seriously going to do exactly what I've been advising
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: him to do. What is your take on the situation
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: and the chances of it actually being successful.
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: Well, it may not surprise you John to learn that
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: I have many thoughts and that they're very nuanced. And
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: I'll say stay tuned for my column, which literally this
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: will be in it. So look, I'm from western Maryland.
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: The Colts had left, the Colts had, you know, abandoned Baltimore.
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: So we were all Redskins fans when I was a kid.
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: And when I was a kid, they went to four
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: Super Bowls and they won three. They should have won four,
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: but I guess Riggins went out drinking before playing the Raiders,
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: you know, in the Super Bowl in eighty three. But
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: this was a great team, you know, just a Joe
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: Gibbs team, by the way, three different three Super Bowls,
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: three different quarterbacks, which is you know, anyone who pays
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: attention to football today, the whole key is you get
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: a Patrick Mahomes, you get to Tom Brady, then you
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: can win. Joe Gibbs did it three times, three different quarterbacks.
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: I don't think that's going to happen again with any
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: one head coach. So look, I watched the game with
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: my dad, my uncle, my cousins. It's part of our identity,
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: it's part of our community, it's part of our culture.
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: So when you come in and change the name, and
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: this is what I don't think some folks understand. And
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: I get that the name of Redskins is problematic to
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: use a term of art that's become popular. But what
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: people don't understand is the you're really ripping away something
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: from people who've invested. I mean, hell, there was a
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: song Hail to the Redskins. There were you know, all
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: the merch that I've owned. I think in this you're
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: not going to like this part, but I hit my compromise.
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: Aside from calling them the Washington Reagans, which was my
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: favorite choice I would have called, if you have to
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: change the name, If you have to change the name,
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: I think they.
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: Should have John.
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: They should have caught them the Washington Hogs. And I'm
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: envisioning here one of those badass boars with the horn,
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: and you keep the Burgundian gold.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: You put a little like feather on that.
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: There was what was there? Know, there was no reason
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: to change the name. It's not racist, it's not well
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: remotely wrong. There's nothing wrong with it. It is honoring
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: Native Americans. It's while honoring them as brave warriors.
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: Ten Native Americans surveyed by the Washington Post had no
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: problem with the Redskins name.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: So what's the issue. So why are you claiming there's
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: an issue? I mean, why did you to the idea?
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: Okay, well, you know they Dan Snyder, who has destroyed
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: the team in many ways, ultimately bowed the pressure and
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: changed the name. I didn't get it. I didn't get
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: a vote. But my point was, if you're if you're
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: gonna change the.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: Name, fine, you didn't like it what they changed it. Two,
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: But let's go to the issue at hand. Do you
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: think that do you do you support Trump's effort and
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: do you think it can be successful.
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: I don't like Trump meddling in this. I really don't.
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: It really rubs me the wrong.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: There's no other way to make it happen, Matt, there's
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: no I don't like it either. This is not the
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: way it should be done. Is that this is a
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: unique set of circumstances. And it's not as if he
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: would be doing it like by an executive order. He
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: would be basically just saying, look, you can keep the
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: Commanders if you want, but you're not going to get
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: approval for a stadium under my watch. You know that's hardball,
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: and that's the only way this is going to happen.
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: I I look, I just don't like that kind of politics.
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: I just don't think it's appropriate for a president.
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: And who knows what what what does the next what
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: does what does President AOC then do to the Redskins
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: or the Commanders or my favorite.
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: I watch team. Matt, I get it. This is not
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: the right way to do this. I get there. There
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: is no other path. There is no other path to
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: making this happen. And to me, you're saying the ends
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: justify to me, you know what, in this very rare
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: situation and I think if done properly, the ends could
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: justify the means, because I think, and it's not just
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: the fact that you know, it's a name that meant
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: something in my youth. It's to me. If this got reversed,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: it would be a massive blow to this ever happening
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: again in the future. It would be a blow against
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: political correctness. It would reverse a lot of really bad
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: history in the realm of race and how everything is
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: racist now and if you know, and I would give
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: Trump enormous credit if he did it properly. However, I
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: don't think it's going to be successful one because I
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: don't think that Trump is going to have a sustained
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: effort here, which it would take. I mean, he would
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: really have to play hardball. I think it's within the
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: rele of his leverage to get it done. I do
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: believe that, but I don't know that he's as committed
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: to it as he would need to be. But also
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: there's another problem, and I think you're going to agree
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: with me on this, and that is the nature of
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: Trump himself. If you forced the Redskins to do this,
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: in perception at the gunpoint of Donald Trump, it changes
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: the perception of the team forever going forward. I mean,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: if this was not Trump that was doing this, Like,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: let's pretend Obama was still president, right, Obama could get
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: away with this, Right, Let's pretend that Obama came forward
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: and said, you know what, I really don't think this
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: was necessary. Guys, why don't we go back to the Redskins.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: I think that that would be perceived completely differently than
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: it would be perceived if at the gunpoint of Donald Trump.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: Do you agree with me on that?
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: Absolutely? Absolutely, Yeah.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: It's like only Nixon can go to China, only Obama
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: can bring back the Redskins, you know, right, total that's
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: RFK Stadium. This is something else I'm excited about, just
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: putting aside the name that stadium was in our It
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: was in Washington, DC, RFK Stadium, And I never.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: Got to go because you had to to get to.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: Go to a game number when I was young, But
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: to go to a game, yeah, you had to sign
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: up for season tickets like twenty five years in advance tech.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: Then then they.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: Moved the stadium out to like they caught it raw
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: John Maryland, but it's Landover Maryland and this hell hole
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: that they started charging an arm and a leg for everything,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: for a hot dog, for a beer, whatever. If they
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: can bring the Redskins or whatever, We're going to call
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: them back to Washington d C. Give them a proper stadium.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: I think that can go a long way for someone
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: who lives in this area, for getting, you know, some
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: community back, because I think you know, this was once
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: a very proud franchise that has now become a joke
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: in the.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: NFL, well up until last year because yeah, we got
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: a quarterback. Well look, I would I would love for
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: them to somehow to go back to the Redskins. I'm
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: going to be very curious to see how this turns out,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: but I'm not particularly optimistic. All right, Well, Matt, I
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: really appreciate your time, very interesting discussion. Where can people
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: find you?
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: All right, man, Well check me. I'm actually writing now
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: for the La Times and they syndicate it, so check
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: that out.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: I'm also I didn't know that was a regular deal.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: I thought this was so you're a regular LA Times
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: column now living in Wedding, Virginia. Yeah, living in West Virginia,
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: because you really have your finger on the pulse of
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: what's happening in Los Angeles. Living in West Virginia.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: I'm writing about national politics, so thanks to the Internet,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: I can do it from you know, without having to
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: be inside the Beltway. Maybe I can bring a little
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: apple Atchian perspective to the good folks of the City
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: of Angels And I'm also writing for The Hill. I
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: got my podcast Matt.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: Lewis and the News on YouTube. There's no lack of
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: Matt Lewis content. Let's just say that.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: All right, Matt, always good talking to you. Keeping time.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: I want to address some two things that Matt and
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: I discussed during that rather interesting and somewhat contentious conversation.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: The first is the issue of the Tulsi Gabbered Barack
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: Obama Trump treason allegation. And I will fully acknowledge that
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: I am first of all open minded, as I always
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: am on these types of things. But as I said
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: in the interview with Matt, I am highly skeptical of
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: what is really going on here, And as I said
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: to Matt, I'm skeptical for some basic reasons that have
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with the alleged facts, as Tulsi Gabbard
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: is claiming they now exist. The first is I have
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: no explanation for why it is that the first Trump
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: administration would not have found these various same documents. By
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: the way, if they were that explosive, why didn't the
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: Obama administration get rid of them? Or why didn't the
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: Biden administration then get rid of them? I mean, can we, please,
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: if we're going to have a conspiracy theory, can we
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: at least be consistent with it? Can we think it through?
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but having that first Trump administration say nothing
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: about this improved nothing about this. And by the way,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: Matt is correct that Mark Rubio did, in fact chair
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: a committee in the Senate that came to conclusions that
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: were very consistent with the allegation of Russia trying to
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: meddle in the twenty sixteen election. And so that is
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: a very big problem for me. Logically, it's very difficult
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: to get past that. How in the world can that
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: make any sense? You're not allowed to have any more
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: Barack Obama scandals based upon government documents. It can't happen
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: unless somehow those documents suddenly appear in twenty twenty five.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: But logically you cannot have any of those. That cannot
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: exist because we have this thing called the first Trump
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: administration and I've seen all sorts of rationalizations about, you know,
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: those people didn't know what they were doing, or they
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: weren't loyal to Trump, and the deep state was still
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: in effect. I'm like, come ot, people, that's just ridiculous.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: He was president for four years and you still haven't
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: explained to me why these documents weren't destroyed by either
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: the Obama administration or the Biden administration if they were
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: so damning, and they were, you know, the smoking gun
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: of what Trump is now calling treeson. I mean, Trump
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: has even put out ridiculous videos AI generated of him
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: sitting next to Barack Obama and the White House and
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: Obama being taken away by THEBI. I mean, it's just
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: it's completely ridiculous based upon just the basic timeline and
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: narrative of this story, and then from a media perspective,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: I am very much turned off by the fact that
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: the biggest cheerleaders for this Tulsi Gabbard narrative other than
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump himself, who clearly wants a distraction and clearly
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: loves talking about Russia, Russia, Russia, and clearly has it
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: out for Obama. When Greg Jarrett and Maria Bartaroma and
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: Jesse Waters, are you know, the three of the biggest cheerleaders.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: I'm an instantly, I'm instantly turned off. I'm instantly almost
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: to the point where, well, that can't be true, because
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: if it was really true, it would at least be
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: Brett Baer, who would be the person that would be
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: leading the charge on this, and the first interview wouldn't
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: be with Maria Bartaroma, who's a nit wit, a complete
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: MAGA cult member, and you know, more than willing to
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: sit there and go okay, sure, that's great, a fantastic
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: you know, Tulsi Gabbard and Obama is terrible. Interestingly, I
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: saw a clip with Megan Kelly, about whom I have
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: always been very conflicted because I like her a lot
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: of times, but she frustrates the heck out of me.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: And I've been very critical, I think many times, and
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: I believe I've been vindicated many times. And why and
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: how I've been critical of Megan Kelly because I think
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: she deserves a lot of criticism, especially when it comes
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: to how she manipulates her relationship with Trump to her advantage.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: But she did a commentary about the whole Tallsea, Gabbard
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: and Obama administration trees and allegation, where the theme of
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: it was she has been convinced, Megan Kelly has been
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: convinced that this narrative is true or at least plausible.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing, but this is basically what Megan Kelly said.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: But the funny part and the telling part about this
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: was as I watched her commentary, I became more convinced
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: than I already was that this is bullshit, that this
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: is most likely bullshit. And I thought about playing the clip,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: and unfortunately, the clip I found stops before she completes
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: her total thought. And I want to be fair about it.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: You can probably find it on your own. But essentially
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: what I found reading the tea leaves is that Megan
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: Kelly herself was at first very skeptical about this and
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: had the same problem I do about the fact that
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: there was a first Trump administration. How to explain how
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: these documents went undiscovered? And well, she doesn't mention an
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: undestroyed by the Biden administration, but she actually, I think,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: maybe inadvertently explained what really is going on here and
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: what we seem to have. Again, I am more than
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: willing to reconsider my opinion if given facts that contradict
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: my current view, but based upon the atmospherics, especially the
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: timing and the need for a distraction and all the
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: other things that Matt and I mentioned about this, I
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: am very inclined to believe that this story is bullshit.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: And my explanation for what has happened is very consistent
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: with the way MAGA world works, and that is that
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: essentially what has happened, based upon my reading of Megan
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: Kelly's analysis, is that there has been a conflation. You know,
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: I mentioned I used that word a lot. I believe,
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: you know, in Matt and I discussed that there was
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: a conflation when it came to PAMBONDI conflating the word
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: Epstein list in Epstein files. That's what I mean by conflation.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: And that's an incredibly important point and distinction that people
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: need to understand it because, you know, the mag of mind.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: For some reason, Oh my god, she said there was
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: a list, and now that means there must be a list.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: Although why she's lying, although there's no explanation for why
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: she would have claimed that, and now what changed? Why
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: is she not lying about it? But I digressed, and
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: the conflation here is the definition of election interference. And
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: I believe based upon Megan Kelly's analysis. And here's someone
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: who's claiming that she believes in this story, although I'm
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: not convinced that she really does. I think she might
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: be play acting for her audience, as she often does.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: I believe that people are misinterpreting fragments of information here.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: And to be more specific about it, is they've basically
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: changed what the allegation was. See the whole essence of
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: this is that they have these documents where Obama administration
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: officials are acknowledging that there was no structural, structural election interference.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: In other words, there was no tampering with the voting
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: machines that type of thing. There was no evidence that
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: Russia had fundamentally altered the vote tabulations or something like that.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: And so that now becomes the definition of election interference.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: But that's not the only definition of election interference. There
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: are plenty of other ways that Russia either tried or
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: intended to try or or and by the way, many
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: of them were probably greatly exaggerated. But there is very
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: little question even just ask Marco Rubio from this era,
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: that Russia did try at some level to influence influence
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: the twenty sixteen election, that's not the same thing as
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: interfering to the point where you are altering the tabulation
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: of votes. And so I think that based upon my
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: initial cursory analysis of the situation, that's the crux of
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: the problem. The crux of the problem is they're changing
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: the definition of election interference. They're conflating two different things,
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: and Telsey Gabbert is basically giving the boss what he wants,
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: which is a distraction. This is red meat to the base,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: and there's in that alone from a timing perspective, makes
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: it very very suspicious to me. That being said, as always,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: I'm open minded, I'm willing to be convinced that I'm wrong.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: If I am, I'll be the first person to admit it.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: But all of the tea leaves, all of the red
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: flags are there. The timing, how convenient the narrative is
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: the people in the media that are promoting this the
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: explanation for what they've got wrong with the conflation of
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: the definition of election interference. And Plus, in my mind,
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: there's not a lot of credibility when it comes to
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: these types of allegations. When Trump is the source I mean, yeah,
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: they got Russia Gate totally wrong, well, mostly wrong. They
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: got Russia wrong, I mean, no question was a black
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: guy for the media, no question about that. As I
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: said in the interview with Matt, they didn't get it
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: completely wrong. They way way, way overplayed it, no question
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: about that. But I just really don't have any trust
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: in the people that are telling me this narrative that
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense because of the fact that there
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: was a first Trump administration. So I'll leave it at
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: that for now, and if I get more information they'll
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: be happy to discuss it again in the future. Thanks
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: for listening to today's free drop of the abbreviated show.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: If you're interested in listening to the entire show, you
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: must become a patron. Please go to Patreon. That's p
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: A T R e O N dot com. Patreon dot
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: com slash the Death of Journalism with John Ziggler. My
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: name is j hn z I E G L e R.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: That's patreon dot com slash the Death of Journalists with
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: John Ziegler. Good luck to you on that. But that's
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: how you can subscribe.