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Ryan Johnston: Building Cast Hope Through the Sport of Fly Fishing · The Wild Idea

• 0:00
  Welcome to our continued conversation for a wild and changing world, the podcast we call The Wild Idea, exploring that intersection of human nature and wild nature. My name is Bill Hodge, a nerd for all things wild in America, a lover of public lands, and I am joined, as always, by my friend and president of the Wilderness Land Trust, Anders Reynolds. We are stoked, as always, to lean into our curiosity to learn a world that I know I personally know too little about as someone living in Montana. That's the world of fly fishing with nonprofit executive director, author, journalist, and all-around great fly fishing guide, Ryan Johnston. Anders, we are rolling into week two of your wild summer with FKT Sunglasses. We are asking the members of our Wild Idea community to share how they have spent their wild summer engaged in wild places out in the city parks, state parks, public lands of their choice. Each week, we're gonna be selecting some of those entries to win a brand-new pair of FKT sunglasses, and we have a new prompt for you this week. We would love to hear stories of how you've given back as part of your wild summer. So what is a way, Anders, that we wanna hear from these folks that they've maybe given back in a meaningful way to public lands?
• 1:16
  Oh, hi, Bill. What a great prompt. I cannot wait to see what stories we get from this one. There are so many meaningful ways that people support public lands, give back to public lands. We've had some of those people on the show. Um, if you're wondering, "What are they talking about?" Like, "What do they want me to talk about?" I, I can think of a million examples. There's, you know, volunteering directly on public land with, like, a trail maintenance crew or, uh, with a group doing invasive species removal or even campground hosting. Um, there's also advocacy and civic engagement, right? Have you submitted public comments during a NEPA process or, or travel management planning or a forest plan revision? We wanna hear about that. Have you contacted elected officials about, uh, land and water conservation fund funding or different wilderness designations? We wanna hear about that. Um, or maybe it's just practicing, like, everyday stewardship, like Leave No Trace, packing out your trash, uh, reporting problems or, or hazards or resource damage to the ma- the, the local management agency. We wanna know about that. There are so many ways that you could talk about, um, um... Oops, I'm gonna have to start that part over. There are, there are so many examples you could give us about the, the, the way you've given back, um, during your wild summer, and I, I can promise you, Bill and I cannot wait to read these, so please get them in. Um, we cannot wait to send you a pair of FKT sunglasses.
• 2:47
  I don't think it's lost on us that we know that so many people in our Wild Idea community are engaged in these acts every week, so it shouldn't be that hard for our community to come up with these. And like you said, we are so excited to hear these stories. If you wanna send us a photo, if you wanna send us a video, if you wanna write a, an, a, a story about what you did, um, we just really would love to hear from you. So you can do that at thewildidea.com. Again, that's thewildidea.com. Look for the dropdown menu there that gives you a chance to go to the form where you can drop in your story. And again, we'll be, we'll be bringing you a pair of sunglasses if you're selected as one of our winners each week. We'll be doing this throughout the month of August, so we're super excited to have these stories coming our way so that we can then share them with you. But meanwhile, let's get to this amazing conversation with Ryan Johnston, where we talk about fly fishing and the [chuckles] incredible funny stories it can create. Ryan, first of all, just welcome to the Wild Idea podcast. We are so excited to get to this conversation that we've been trying to schedule for some time. We are ready to explore some of the stories from your books. We wanna hear the origin story for Cast Hope, the organization you founded and lead to this day. But I kinda want to go where I always go, which is back to the beginning, and I'm wondering if you recall the first day you held a fly rod, and can you take us back to that day and that evolution of how you got started fly fishing and all the way through becoming a guide and all that you do today?
• 4:16
  Yeah. Thanks for having me on, guys. Uh, yeah, I started fly fishing when I was 12. I actually remember that day really well. Uh, my dad was a fisherman, not a fly fisherman. Uh, I was raised in Southern California in San Diego, so my dad was a saltwater angler, so I learned how to fish conventional rods, uh, fishing for bonito and yellowtail and calico bass and all those great species off San Diego. My grandfather purchased a piece of property in Western Wyoming, uh, about an hour southwest of Jackson Hole, right on the Idaho border. Uh, I now call it Wy-daho. It's about five miles from Idaho border, but it's technically in Wyoming. And I was there for my 12th birthday, and we had seen the famous movie A River Runs Through It, and everybody wants to be like Brad Pitt, you know, floating the river, catching the brown trout of your life. And, uh, my dad said, "Hey, how about we try this fly fishing thing out?" And so for my 12th birthday, he hired a guide on the South Fork of the Snake River, uh, and we learned how to fly fish. Um, started casting dry flies towards the bank and cracking flies off on our fast casts and all the tangles that come from learning how to be a fly angler. But something about watching a cutthroat rise to a dry fly and seeing that fish rise off the bottom and come up and eat off the top really kinda captured my heart.
• 5:44
  And caught a handful of fish on our first trip, and then, uh, the next day, went into a local sporting goods store, and my dad and I were buying some really cheap fly rods, uh, the sporting goods store had, not even a fly shop. And that started the journey of, uh, fly fishing every summer at my grandfather's property. And, uh, so that would go on for
• 6:07
  I don't know, about seven or eight years, and then went on to college and went to UC Davis in Northern California. And going to Davis, I got a job at a local fly shop and started working in retail. Um, did that for about a year and a half, and quickly realized that, uh, the guides made way more money than the guy sitting behind the cash register. So I, uh, started the journey of, um, trying to become a fly fishing guide. Part of that in Northern California was you needed a drift boat.
• 6:41
  So, uh, I needed about $5,000. As a 19-year-old, didn't have a lot of money, so I went into my grandfather's office and said, " Grandpa, uh, I have a business idea. I wanna become a fly fishing guide and I can make amount, X amount of money and, you know, I wanna kinda s- try out this next phase of fly fishing." And he kinda peered over his glasses at me
• 7:08
  and, uh, said, "Okay, let's make this happen" and he wrote me a $5,000 check. That's, uh, one of the last great things he did for me. He would pass away about nine months later. And, uh, that would start the j- trajectory of me becoming a fly fishing guide. And I've been fortunate now, uh, I started guiding when I was 20, and I've been guiding for 24 years. Um, and I've guided for 20 years in California. I would guide for five summers on the South Fork of the Snake, the same place I cast my first fly. We'd have a full circle moment, and 15 years later I'd come back and, and guide the same river. Uh, and now live full-time in northwest Montana and have been guiding four summers here, um, starting our new life in Montana.
• 7:55
  Ryan, thanks for being here. I'm really, really, really tempted to start with a question from the Favorite 50 chapter of your book, Reely. That's R-E-E-L-Y for those that are listening, um, where you sorta capture the, the best 50 questions you've heard during your time as a guide. But I didn't think I could keep a straight face if I ask you to do this with your shirt off. So instead, I'll just ask if you're willing to share with our listeners your favorite story from that book or maybe one of your other books.
• 8:28
  Yeah. Um, you know, I've written three books now. Uh, I started the journey as an author in 2020. Uh, actually was fruit of COVID when I was sitting home with nothing to do and, uh, no guiding on the calendar and no access to kids for Cast Hope. Um, I started writing down my stories, and that started the first book. Uh, probably my most famous story when you ask people is in my first book. It's called A Reel Job. Um, it's called Monster Brown Trout,
• 9:01
  and, uh, the story kinda starts off with, uh, two anglers that I was gonna guide that day on the South Fork of the Snake, uh, s- the same river where I cast my first fly, and they show up, um, with huge vests, lots of gear. Guy has this huge net behind him, and they've never been on guided trips before. And so we meet at the fly shop and they have all this stuff with them. I'm like, "Hey, guys, you can leave that in your car. Um, I got all the flies, all the rods, reels, everything we need for the day." And then the guy's like, "Well, man, I've never been on a guided trip. You know, I kinda would feel weird if I didn't have, like, tippet and flies with me." And I was like, "Okay, well, you can bring it with you. You know, no problem. Just there's no reason to wear it. Um, you know, I would just bring it with us and just put it on the back of the seat, you know?" And so we get to the boat launch and get the boat ready and, um, you know, he puts his big vest and his long-handle net on the, on the chair and, uh,
• 9:58
  I put the boat in the water and, you know, gotta go up and park my trailer, so five minutes later I'm walking back down the boat launch and here's, uh, my client in the back of the boat wearing his vest and long-handle net. And I'm like, whatever. I said my, you know, I said my piece. Uh, if he wants to wear 30 pounds on his body all day, that's fine. Um, so we push off and we have a great morning of fishing,
• 10:21
  uh, catch a bunch of fish, and the whole time this guy has, you know, zippers and nippers clinging and, you know, bouncing away as we f- row down the river. Around 2:00, the guy goes, "Hey, Ryan, um, I really need to use the restroom." And I'm like, "Okay, you know, you need to take a leak or you gotta take a dump?" He's like, "Man, I really gotta take a dump." I'm like, "Okay, I'll just pull over the edge and, you know, here's some TP. You can walk off and, you know, uh, go do your thing." So he disappears for 10, 12 minutes, and then, uh, comes back and I pull my anchor and we start floating down the river.
• 10:51
  Well, a couple minutes later, there's this, like, really bad smell. I just can't get it off my nose, and so I'm like, "Wow, man, like, did this guy step in his own crap or what?" And so I, I real politely just... You know, I'm in the middle of the rower seat, so the guy's standing behind me, and so I real politely look over my left shoulder at the floor thinking I'm gonna see this huge poop streak on the back of my boat, and I don't see anything. And I turn around on my right shoulder and I slowly look at the ground and as I look over my right shoulder, the guy lifts up his foot. So I kinda jokingly be like, "Hey, man, did you step in your own shit or what? Man, that smells back there." And he goes, "I, I don't know. I smell it too." And so I stand up and I'm, like, looking around the floor and he turns around and he has this huge turd in the bottom of his net. And, uh, so the guy took a dump, uh, crapped in his net, and walked it back to the boat. [laughs] Um, so that, that, that story is so famous, um, amongst the fly fishing, you know, community. Uh, me and my friend were actually on a guided trip in southwest Montana where, um, I was being guided, so, you know-
• 12:02
  Middle of the day, things, fishing slowed down, so the guide's telling us guide stories, entertaining us, and this guy on the Beaverhead River in southwest Montana literally starts telling us my story. And my friend in the front's like chuckling, and the guy's like, "What's so funny, man? I haven't even got to the punchline yet." And he goes, "You realize you're telling us Ryan's story?" And he's like, "No way. You're the one that happened to?" And, uh, so yeah, that's the one everyone loves. Um, I get... I still to today, like people are buying the books, I get great comments on social media. Uh, yeah, but um, that one is memorable. There's lots of amazing stories, obviously through three books and over 60 chapters, but that one's probably the one people talk about the most.
• 12:48
  And ladies and gentlemen, that client's name was Bill Hodge. For sure.
• 12:52
  [laughs]
• 12:54
  [laughs] I can't, I can't defend myself because I can't quit laughing. Oh, that's definitely, that's definitely one you catch and release, for sure.
• 13:02
  Yes. You gotta release the brown trout.
• 13:05
  [laughs] Ryan, there are so many good stories in these books, and obviously they're taken from real life, and that's R-E-A-L for our listeners. You know, you, you told us a little bit that, that you were inspired to start doing this during the COVID days, but you know, have you always been a storyteller? Is it something you always thought you might do?
• 13:25
  No, it... This is something that's newer. Um, it actually started about 15 years ago. Um, I was hosting some clients to, uh, the Idaho property, the Wyoming property, and um, my dad was there. I had six clients at, at the property, and we were fishing the South Fork of the Snake. And one night, you know, we'd finished dinner, we're sitting around the dinner table, you know, sipping on bourbon and wine and um, one of my clients said, "Hey, Ryan, can you tell us your best guide story or tell us a funny story?" So I rattled off one, and then I rattled off a second one and a third one and, you know, next thing you know, we've been at the table for over two hours and I'm just making guys laugh and entertaining.
• 14:10
  Uh, we all go to bed. Um, wake up the next morning for fishing and my dad's getting coffee ready and he goes, "Ryan, last night was awesome. Like, do you realize you had seven grown men entertained for like hours?" And he goes, "I think there's something there. You know, whether this is for just our family, uh, whether it's just for you, you know, when you get older, like me, a lot of these, you know, details are gonna start getting fuzzy. And so I think you need to start writing these stories down because they're really special." And um, so I kind of had this thought in the back of my mind for seven or eight years and really didn't do anything with it. And when we had babies,
• 14:50
  I, uh, I have two girls, uh, Maggie and Ava. Maggie's 15 now and Ava's 12. But when they were little and, you know, I had laptop work to do, it was just so hard to work from home with, you know, crying and diaper changes and, you know, all, all the responsibilities that a mom and father have when you're raising little kids. So I would go to coffee shops and, you know, pick a local coffee shop. I'd work for there for four or five hours. And one day, you know, I went to the mo- local coffee shop and finished like two or three hours early, and I was like, "Ah, I don't really want to go back right now." And so I just opened up my laptop and started typing. And um, God's given me a really vivid memory. And so if something meaningful happens, um, I can close my eyes and I can go back into that space. Like, I can literally close my eyes and go back into delivery rooms where my kids were born. And so, you know, on the river, it hap- same thing happens. And so o- obviously, when a guy craps in his net, you never forget about that. But you know, other, other fish or moments... And a lot of people think my books are just going to be like, ha ha, laugh jokes, and some of it is that, for sure. Um, at the same time, some of the stories are really inspirational and emotional. And so when those things happen, I can close my eyes, I can go back in that space. I can feel it, I can see it. And so I just started typing and, you know, ended up typing up this short story, and I was like, "Wow, that was a lot of fun." You know? I, I really enjoyed that process. And so a month later, I found myself with additional time at a coffee shop, and I did, I wrote the second story, and then over about a year and a half, completed what I thought would be a book. And so I had a couple clients. Uh, one was a literature professor at a, um, Long Beach State in Southern California. Another, another client was a English teacher at a high school. So I sent off this potential book to these two guys that I respect, are in the literary world, and I'm like, "All right, is there something here? Am I crazy? Like, I think it's good, but what's your opinion?" And both of them independently, this was really huge for me, both of them independently said the exact same thing. They said, "The stories are amazing, but you need to pull yourself out of the story a little more. You're giving too much opinion. Uh, you need to allow the reader to make their own, uh, opinion of the situation." So having that feedback from two different guys I respect saying the same thing, um, that's what happened during COVID. Uh, I went back and rewrote the whole first book. So I, uh, wrote the first book f- completely for myself. Um,
• 17:29
  you know, I had no intentions of writing a second one or even a third one. And what happened was the first book got some traction, so I self-published, you know, um, hired an editor, hired a book designer, doing all the things you do to create a book. And after that process was done, self-published on Amazon, and I have a lot of connections in the fly fishing industry just for, you know, being a guide for so long and running Cast Hope. And so after reaching out to some people, I said, "Hey, I'll send you a free book. All you gotta do is make one single post on Instagram. That's all I ask." You know? And people are like, "Yeah, I'm in." You know? So- I send all these people-- I send out, like, 50 free books, and then over the next two to three months, it starts coming out on social media. People are starting to buy it, and then after a couple weeks, I got a message
• 18:18
  from a guy in the East Coast, someone I've never met, and he goes, "This is the best book I've read in years. Are you gonna write another one?" And I'm like, "Uh, no intentions. Never thought about it." And so the next week, there was two messages, and the third week, there was three messages, and then there was five messages. And you can never trust feedback from your own family and friends, right? Everybody blows smoke. "Yeah, yeah, your, your book's great." Um, but these were people I had never had any contact with. And then it started turning into messages from guys from Europe and Brazil and Japan, and, uh, eventually, I had like 500-ish messages on social media of all people wanting a second book. And I'm like, "Whoa, okay. Maybe there is something here." And then that started the process of me becoming a legitimate author, is what I would say. You know, one book is cool idea, but when you do three, um, that's a, that's a lot different journey. So yeah, it, uh... I have never intended for this to be a part of my life, but it's been this really beautiful journey that, uh, I'm still on. And, uh, the fourth book, actually, the first draft got finished about two months ago, so I'm kind of putting the editing on a hold for a while. Um, the editing is painful for me. I do not enjoy that process. So giving myself a little break, and then, uh, the fourth one will probably be out, um, the winter of '28.
• 19:40
  Wow. That's an... I mean, that's an incredible superpower you mentioned, to be able to [laughs] close your eyes and be back that vividly in the boat. And I, I guess that makes me curious that
• 19:53
  after 22 years in that seat, you know, what has watching thousands of clients, thousands of strangers meet, um, wild places and meet up in wild places, what has that taught you about people that you couldn't have learned anywhere else?
• 20:12
  Yeah, you know, the, the drift boat's an interesting place. You know, when you're in a 14 to 16-foot boat, depending on what boat you have, and you're with two people for seven to nine hours, it becomes a really intimate place. And so, um, you know, most people think that to be a great guide, you have to be a great fisherman, and I... That's really only 50% true. The other 50% is you have to be really good with people, you know? And,
• 20:38
  you know, guiding here in Montana is completely different than guiding in California. Um, a lot of my guiding is not what I would say normal for a lot of, you know, the guide community. You know, guiding here in Montana, you take out a lot of tourists, you know, so when you take out tourists, it's more about, you know, showing them a good time, connecting them with nature. It's less about the fishing, to be honest. It's more about the experience. Um, you know, they're here visiting Flathead Valley. They want to see Glacier National Park, and they want to go fly-fishing in Montana 'cause they've been told by media that, you know, fly-fishing in Montana is amazing. So it's more of them marking a box. Um,
• 21:15
  guiding for 20 years in Northern California was completely different. Um, my last 10 years, last decade of guiding there, um, I only had 15 clients, and I was doing 200 days a year with those 15 clients. Now, five of those clients were taking, um, 125 of those days. So my top client when I left California was fishing with me 40 times a year, um, and doing that for a decade. So what happens is you become really close, you know? And yeah, I think what I've learned the most about guiding is it's really built a lot of amazing relationships in my life, and at some point, there's a crossover when clients turn into friends. You know, now, when you're guiding tourists and you're seeing a lot of different people, that doesn't happen. But when you're starting to see someone two times a month, three times a month, and you do that for 10 years, the-- you talk about religion, you talk about your family, you talk about marriage, you talk about your kids. And if you allow that space to become intimate, where anything and everything's okay, and it's not just hanging out and having a good time, what you quickly realize is that most of the people you're taking are no longer there for the actual fishing experience. You guys are connecting as two individuals or three individuals, you know what I mean, on the trip, and it becomes a bonding friendship space, and fishing is just, you know, the method we're doing to connect over. So, um,
• 22:48
  you know, I-- [laughs] A lot of people are like, "Oh, wow, you fish for a living." No, not really. You know, I either run, you know, driving a boat or rowing a boat, but really, we're creating an intimate space where a relationship can happen, and fishing's just the tool that we're using.
• 23:03
  It's so true. Uh, Bill and I have been on a guided boat tour together through Glacier Bay, and there were so many impressive things [laughs] about that trip. There was the wildlife, there was the landscape, there was the logistical stuff that, um, our two guides were providing for us. But beyond all that, I think one thing that most impressed me was just, like, the psychological expertise it took [laughs] to handle, like, you know, six, uh, six people on your boat at all times and to never, like, lose your patience or lose your temper and always be able to answer questions and know, like, the next thing we're gonna do. I was-- It's a really, really tough job, and so, you know, kudos to you to be able, uh, to, to manage those people at the same time as you're, you know, trying to give them, um, a, a great fly-fishing experience.
• 23:49
  It's funny how guides get really frustrated by tangles and losing fish and breaking fish.
• 23:56
  Um, you know, I always tell people like, you know, that none of that bothers me. Like, you know, that you have to have patience as a guide. And the reality is no one's trying to get in a tangle. No one's trying to break a fish off, right? Like, everyone's trying their best. And so if you come into guiding with that perspective of like, "Here... I am here to support people, I'm here to engage with people," and yeah, we're gonna get in tangles. Even the best angler in the world gets in tangles. We don't always do it right. But I think something happens to guides over many years, you know, they become salty, right? I mean, it's the title of my third book, Real Salty. It's, um, you know, you become salty and all that stuff starts bothering you. But, you know, as soon as the tangle starts bothering you, like, to your core, it's like, it might be time to look for a new profession.
• 24:43
  If Blaine and Monique, our guides in Glacier Bay, could handle Bill and I for a week in tight spaces, I'm pretty convinced they could do anything. We really, really try people's patience. [laughs]
• 24:54
  We try each other's patience better than anything. We step aside for a word from our sponsor, and we'll be right back with more of the conversation.
• 25:01
  I'm Sam Evans from Asheville, North Carolina, and you're listening to The Wild Idea.
• 25:06
  Ryan, uh, you're such a great storyteller, so I'm, I'm anxious to hear this story. Cast Hope as an organization is about a desire to bring kids and mentors together ki- on the outside through the sport of fly fishing. I know that you're the founding executive director and continue to run the organization to this day. I always love a good nonprofit origin story. Can you take us through that origin and the key moments to, uh, to the creation of Cast Hope?
• 25:34
  Yeah, it's super dear to my heart. Um, I feel really honored. You know, we started Cast Hope in 2009, so, you know, we're in our 17th operating year, which is, you know, humbling and amazing all at the same time. Um, Cast Hope originally started, actually from a church sermon. Uh, my wife and I were attending, um, a Presbyterian church in Chico, California. Chico's about two hours north of Sacramento.
• 26:03
  And, uh, our pastor was talking about using your personal gifts to change your local community. And so, great message. Uh, walked out that Sunday after the sermon, and, you know, most Sundays you walk out and it's back to life and, you know, whatever was just talked about goes in one ear, out the other, you know, as the busyness of life and work and all the, the things happen. Uh, but that Sunday, I could not get that message out of my head, and for weeks, um, you know, I really believe God just kept bringing it to my mind and, you know, "What, what are you doing for Chico? How are you changing your community?" And, um, just really started thinking about what, what was, what was I doing, uh, for Chico. And so at the time, I was already a full-time fly fishing guide, and I was going to, uh, an MBA program part-time, working on grad school just in the evenings. And so I was like, "You know what? I have the boat. I have the rods. I have the resources. I'm just gonna donate one trip a month to, um, encourage kids." I always had a passion for youth. Um, in high school and in college, I worked with lots of youth organizations. Uh, and I have found, even with my own parenting, I don't love little babies. Uh, I am not a young kid guy, but there is something really special for me when they get to, like, junior high to high school age. And I know there's some parents out there that are like, "Oh, you gotta be kidding. That's the worst." But for me, it's, it's ability to connect with that age. I really enjoy that. So I just started spreading the word locally, uh, to friends and in the church, um, about I'm gonna donate one guide trip a month just to encourage, you know, some youth that was struggling, uh, having a hard time in life, you know. So, uh, the first month, uh, literally had a high school aged kid whose parents were going through divorce. You know, he was, you know, working through that separation of the family. Um, and so we went and used the river to connect and talk about that and, uh, create a- an intimate space, right? This space we've talked about before. And so then it was second month, it was a kid who was battling cancer and just, you know, working through health issues in his life. Um, and then this would go on for about six months. Ultimately would have a junior high kid come out with his uncle, and the kid... I don't even remember his name. Um, the kid, his father had passed away, uh, nine months before, and his uncle was stepping in, trying to be this male role model for him.
• 28:34
  So we're on the Sacramento River about an hour from Chico. Uh, the kid's in the front of the drift boat. Uncle's behind me.
• 28:41
  Uh, the kid caught his second rainbow. Uh, we net the fish, take pictures of the fish. We let the fish go, and we're kind of experiencing that moment of success. And the kid turns around and looks towards his uncle in the back of the drift boat and goes, "This is the coolest thing I've ever done. I want to start fly fishing with you. I want to go buy a fly rod, and, like, I want this to become our thing." And I'm sitting in between them experiencing this pure joy. It depends on what you believe. Some people call it a holy shit moment. Other people call it a God moment. I believe it's a God moment. And in that moment I was like, "Wow, I got to figure out how to do this more than once a month." So, uh, the trip went on, and we said goodbye at the end of the day. And then part of my MBA program was you could write a potential business plan, uh, that... an entrepreneurial class that you could start. And so I worked with my two professors to potentially create a fly fishing nonprofit for kids. Um, and rather than doing a thesis, I would write this 70-page business proposal, uh, of what Cast Hope could be, and that was the initial phase. Uh, I was a fly fishing guide with no nonprofit experience. I had no background in it. You know, I've always been kind of strategic in my thought process. But two professors and then one of our dear friends was actually a nonprofit consultant, her name was Laura, and the three of them kind of helped mold, um, the idea
• 30:11
  So I finished my MBA, took a month off, and then a month later, I was applying for the 501[c][3] nonprofit status, and it got approved March of 2009. So,
• 30:24
  uh, it has grown a ton. It started off with a simple idea of just taking a kid fishing. Um, and about five years in, we had a donor from the Tahoe/Reno area saying, "Hey, we've been watching from afar what you're doing. Uh, we love the idea of Cast Hope and getting kids in the outdoors and connecting kids on the water, and what does it take for, um, Cast Hope to be in my community?" And so we pitched him a, a business model of, uh, second s- second chapter. Uh, we call it a region. Um, and that started, uh, the Tahoe/Reno section of Cast Hope. Uh, you fast-forward now to where we're at currently,
• 31:05
  uh, Cast Hope now has five regions across the West. We have one in Southern California and Northern California, Tahoe/Reno, Nevada, and then just two years ago, we launched Salmon Valley, Idaho, and Flathead Valley, Montana. And across those five regions, we're gonna be taking 1,200 kids fly fishing for free, uh, this year, and we have about 40 to 50 guides who work under our brand. And, um, what started off as a passion project has turned into
• 31:37
  17 years of serving kids, but also, you know, a career for me and obviously learning a ton in the grant world, in management, and having employees, and all the things of running a business. And, uh, I just feel really honored and humbled to have, um, so many people breathe life in the organization, from the board to donors, uh, even to parents who bring the kids. And, uh, I never imagined that this one sermon of giving back would turn into, you know, 1,200 kids fishing annually, and, uh, that's a pretty humbling thought and moment, you know? And, um, yeah, I'm excited for what the future holds.
• 32:16
  Yeah, I love that. You know, probably the one moment sums up the question I'm about to ask you, that moment where the young boy turned around and looked at his uncle and said, "I want to do this, you know, all the time with you. I want this to be our thing." But I wonder what are the ways you see that we can encourage more endeavors like Cast Hope? 'Cause I have personally found such immense joy in sharing something that I love with someone that might not otherwise have the opportunity to experience that place or that activity, and I want to open more doors to other endeavors like that. Or can you think of ways in which we can foster there to be more Cast Hope-type organizations in the world, uh, that do those sort of opportunity sharing moments?
• 33:01
  There's two paths here. You know, um, one question I get a lot of, like, "How can I do this personally?" Um, you know, each and every one of us have the ability to bless our communities. You know, we don't have to go out and create, uh, a formal nonprofit. You know, um, each one of us can be like, "Hey, I have a passion for hiking or backpacking or, you know, whatever outdoor activity you're, you're passionate about," and, you know, you can take your neighbor, you can take your, you know, kid down the street, or, um... It doesn't have to become an organized thing, you know? And so I think so much of, so many of us want to have an avenue where we're like, "Okay, we're gonna send everybody to them and that, and, you know, Cast Hope's going to serve them," right? Like, we... Yes, it's great. I, we love when you funnel, you know, kids into our program, but at the same time, we all have the ability to do it ourselves. Um, the second part of it,
• 33:56
  and, you know, directly answering your question,
• 33:59
  you know, starting a nonprofit is a huge labor of love. And, um,
• 34:06
  you know, most people, I would say, are not prepared for the amount of time and energy it takes, you know. Um, at the same time, I think we have kind of, at least in this new generation coming up, that, like, we're all a little soft, and, you know, like, when you want to do something to change the world, it's probably gonna be hard. You know? It's not gonna be just this, you know, yellow brick road that's showing you the path and it's gonna be this real nice, easy, you know, endeavor to go down. Like, you're gonna start a nonprofit, and you're gonna trip, you're gonna fall, you're gonna have a hard time fundraising, you're gonna, you know, have a hard time with board members and, you know, the, all the pains and aches that come with having an organization. You know, so, you know, anybody who, who wants to go down that path, you know, just,
• 34:52
  you know, put, put on your big boy pants and know that, like, this is gonna take sweat equity, and it's gonna take time, and, you know, it's not gonna be smooth, and... But if you're truly passionate about changing the world, then all those bumps and all those, you know, trip-ups, I mean, that's gonna create awesome, incredible change down the line. And so, you know, having a thicker skin and being open to, you know, what's gonna be next in my life and, you know, how, how can I change my community, and, you know, know that it's gonna take time and effort, and
• 35:30
  I don't know. That's my encouragement.
• 35:32
  Ryan, I want to get back to the rivers a little bit. Um, I know we've discussed some of, uh, uh, the roles you play when you're out with a client, but, you know, a, a guide is one of the few people who really gets a continuous day in, day out record of a river's health. And y- you know, you've guided in multiple and distinct fisheries over the years, and I'm, I'm wondering what you can tell us about those ecosystems and what you can tell us about what you've personally seen in the ways that they change. You know, have you seen things degrade over time? Have you watched, uh, things come back over time? Um, what's it like sort of watching a river, um, Or a, a, a section of a river, um, change over time?
• 36:26
  Yeah. Well, you know, the, the rivers are changing constantly, right? Like, you know, pebbles and, uh, debris is constantly being moved every year with runoff, right? Like, there's constant change. Um, you know, people ask me this question, or like, "Is fishing better or worse now than it was, you know, 15 years ago or 20 years ago?" Um, yeah, I don't think I- I've been in Montana long enough to speak on that, you know? Um, only been here for four seasons, but, you know, like, Idaho waters and California waters, things I've fished for a lot, um, to be honest, I think the fishing's just as good now and the rivers are just as healthy now as they were 20 years ago. I think the reason why a lot of people don't catch as many fish now as they used to is because there's more people fishing, you know? And what happens to fisheries and fish specifically, you know, the more you fish for them, the more they get caught, the smarter they become and the more educated they become, you know? So your tactics as a fisherman has to change. And so, uh, the way I fish for fish now is a lot different than I did 20 years ago. You know, our flies are smaller. Um, they're a little... a lot more realistic than they used to be. You know, fly tyers are becoming more educated. I mean, the flies you see in fly shops now were not the same flies you would see there 15 years ago. So, you know, I think a lot of people have this perception of
• 37:52
  fisheries being on decline, and trust me, there are plenty of fisheries across the West that are, you know, in terms of just straight fish numbers and, you know, warm waters. But, um, all the rivers that I have spent lots of time on, um, they're as good as now as they were 20 years ago. It's just, it, you know, the fishing has become harder and more complex.
• 38:12
  Um, the reality in my mind is that, you know, a lot of what we have tried to do, um, from a government level and an angling level, um, you know, catch and release is a very common practice now. You know, you're seeing that more and more, and you're even getting practices where you don't like, you know, don't take fish out of the water, uh, to protect the fish. And so I think
• 38:38
  as anglers, as an angling community, you know, people are becoming a lot more conscious of, you know, our impacts on them. And the more people that fish, the, the more that, you know, becomes important. Um, at the same time, fish are a lot hardier than we make them out to be. Um, you know, I, [chuckles] I have seen fish that have been mishandled that swim away. I've seen fish that are handled perfectly not swim away, you know? And, um, you know, water temperatures and how long the fish is on your line. There's a lot of, there's a lot of factors there to, you know, the fish's health. But, um, overall, I just think conservation in itself is, you know, probably at an all-time high, um, and people leaning into that, which is beautiful and special. Um, that's gonna protect our fisheries for my kids and my grandkids and... Um, but yeah, you know, in terms of
• 39:31
  [sighs] long-term outlook, I think we're on a great, you know, um, perspective and I think our fisheries are doing really well for the most part.
• 39:42
  And as someone who's, you know, guided on, on rivers that, that require permits, you know, even to get on the river, like, I think there's a hard cap on the South Fork of the Snake, correct?
• 39:54
  Yes.
• 39:55
  What do you think a, like, a well-run commons looks like? Like, you know, w- when does limiting access protect a place, and when does limiting access just boil down to gatekeeping?
• 40:06
  Yeah. This is a, a big question. Um, you s- you challenged me to answer a question that I've never heard. This is, this is a first one for me. Um, so I have a lot of different perspectives on this. Um, in California, I guided for 20 years where there was no permits required. You could be an independent guide and pretty much guide about 95% of the rivers. There was a couple that had, like, National Forest permits. Um, South Fork of the Snake, like you just alluded to, um, you know, it's one of the top 10 fisheries of the West, and there are actually only six permits to guide that river, um, and each permit's allo- is able to guide, uh, with 12 guides. So, uh, once you own one of those permits, it's like a piece of property and, you know, those permits now are, you know, value pushing a million dollars, you know, to just own one of those permits. Um, here in Montana, right, you have to work under an outfitter, um, but then you have the ability to become your own outfitter after 100 days of guiding. Um, you know, you have that decision, do I want to become my own outfitter and work for myself and hire guides, or do I keep working for the current outfitter I am?
• 41:14
  Um, I,
• 41:18
  I, I fall somewhere in the middle, um, in terms of my opinion of permits. And, you know, guiding in Idaho is one of the hardest states to guide in, just 'cause every piece of water, every creek, every river, every lake has a permit, uh, or nu- certain number of permits to guide under. Uh, in my opinion, that's too much, you know, if every single piece of water you have to own or work under a permit. Um, what that does is really puts the power into, like, the outfitter's hands. Um, I can tell you right now without listing specific lodges and stuff, but, um, a lot of the outfitters on the S- South Fork of the Snake River are taking half or more than half of the money from the guides. Um, from someone who's a guide, I don't really believe in that, you know? Um, just because you own the piece of paper and the guide is doing the work, that you should get 50 to 60%, or even sometimes more than that, of the money.
• 42:16
  Um, I really honestly believe if you worked for an outfitter that the outfitter should just be taking, you know, 15 to 20% off the top. You know, um, for their, their fee. Um, you know, I, being a guide, especially in the Rockies when you have a very short season, it's hard. Like, you know, it's pretty much impossible to own a home in Northwest Montana and just be a fly fishing guide. Your season isn't long enough, you know? So, uh, in California you can, 'cause we didn't have an off-season. You know, we have a very temperate area and so you're able to guide, you know, 200 plus days a year and you have a really nice life for yourself. Um, but that was because there wasn't an outfitter taking any money. Um, so in terms of the perspective of fisheries and protecting our environment, um, permits make a lot of sense, right? Y- you know, if you have the South Fork of the Snake, and you're able... anybody and everybody is able to guide, go guide there, next thing you know, you're gonna have 200 guides on the South Fork of the Snake. Those fish are gonna get beat up. Uh, not that the fishery is gonna decline, it's just like we talked about, those fish will become more educated. The overall fishing experience will go down because the fish are smarter.
• 43:27
  Um, so I'm pretty twisted on this. I come from a guiding perspective where, like, that's my livelihood, so, you know, if an outfitter's taking 50 to 60% of the money, that's not okay with me. At the same time, that permit's needed to protect the fishery. So
• 43:41
  I'm not sure where the line's, the, the correct answer is and what the correct path is, you know? Um, I think any time you talk from a guiding perspective and then a state, um, you know, kind of fishery perspective, sometimes those are in conflict.
• 43:58
  Ryan, as we sort of wrap up our conversation here, I kind of have a sort of a similar question for you as our, our final question here. Recently, a couple public lands issues have galvanized the sportsman community to mandac- to demand accountability from elected officials on, you know, protecting the resource, like you were just talking about. Sometimes we do things 'cause we clearly need to to protect the resource. I am wondering, as a longtime guide and, and journalist, so I know you do some writing. Besides your books, you do some writing for, for some fly fishing magazines and that sort of thing. If you can speak to, like, fly fishing enthusiasts translating their experiences on the water into action for the waters that they fish.
• 44:38
  [laughs] I mean, if we're going from a, a true fisheries protection, um,
• 44:43
  you know, the more catch and release, the more barbless fisheries you have, the better. Um, it's gonna protect the fish. You know, um,
• 44:52
  you know, sadly we live, uh, in the world of our grandparents', um, generation, where they just started putting fish everywhere. You know, like rainbow trout, most of them come from California, but they're all over the Rockies. And, you know, rainbow trout and cutthroat, um, spawn about the same time and, you know, that creates, uh, what we call a cutbow or a hybrid and, you know, they're great sport fish. Um, you know, they're dumb as a cutthroat, but they jump like a rainbow. But the problem is, is, um, you know, a lot of your cutbows don't have the ability to spawn, you know? So,
• 45:26
  huh, you know, one of the biggest issues I think we see is people transplanting fish, um, like our grandparents did, and, you know, all it takes is a couple, um,
• 45:38
  lacking knowledge, uh, and taking a couple pike from, you know, some lake and dropping it in a river, and next thing you know, those pike, you know, over 20 years create a stronghold and devastate your fishery, you know? So transplanting fish should be a huge no-no, uh, everywhere, you know, because I mean, we are now feeling consequences our grandparents made, and it's all across the Rockies. It's, it's why you see no limits on rainbow trout. I mean, you, you can't keep any cutthroats in the Rockies in a river, but, um, you know, rainbows you can kill pretty much as many as you want in most places. It's just they're trying to get rid of them. So,
• 46:16
  um, yeah, I think the more catch and release we can promote, the better our, you know, fisheries in the long term will be, uh, the more barbless fisheries we can create. Um, and then everybody in the whole entire world needs to stop moving fish around, um, because the more we mess with our own wildlife, you know, the greater effects that we have. So, um, that's my biggest, you know, concern for the, uh, the future.
• 46:43
  Ryan, thanks for, thanks for coming on The Wild Idea podcast. We really appreciate you being here and, and, uh, really have loved hearing about your story. It's just really meant a lot and really could not thank you enough. How do, how do folks, uh, learn more about you? How do they, uh, stay on top of what's going on with Cast Hope?
• 46:58
  Yeah, you can find, uh, the website at casthope.org, um, and then all my books are available on Amazon.
• 47:06
  Great. Well, again, thank you for, for being here. Thanks for bringing such clarity to, uh, to our audience about the life on the river and some of those incredible stories. Uh, you want to throw back, uh, some of those brown trout every once in a while.
• 47:19
  [laughs]
• 47:19
  [laughs] Coming up on The Wild Idea podcast, we visit with Adam Kramer from the Outdoor Alliance. We learn about exciting legislation on wildlife crossings with Defenders of Wildlife, and we return to fly fishing waters with a deep dive on one of the nation's strongest stream access laws and a rally to save it. Be sure to subscribe to all of our podcasts, including the new separate feed for The Wild Line on your podcast player of choice. If you want to financially support what we're doing here, use a platform called Buy Me A Coffee, which you can find on our website as well. And if you love what we're doing here, give us a rating and a review on your podcast player of choice, recommend us to your friends. We love watching our community grow every week. Let's all lace up our boots. Let's get to work and we'll see all of you on down the trail.
• 48:03
  The Wild Idea is a production of Wild Idea Media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bren Russell at PodLab. Digital support by Holly Wilcheszewski at Daypack Digital. Our theme music, Spring Hill Jack, is from Railroad Earth and was composed by John Keahan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Laura Hodge. You can find The Wild Idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating, and if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at thewildidea.com.