Latest / North Side Territory: A Chicago Cubs Podcast / Big changes coming to the St. Louis front office and the Cubs-Cardinals rivalry

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Big changes coming to the St. Louis front office and the Cubs-Cardinals rivalry · North Side Territory: A Chicago Cubs Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: He said, we are going young. That's the message to fans,
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: we are going young. They never once said that meant uncompetitive.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Welcome into North Side Territory. Foul Territory Networks Cubs Podcast.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: I'm Sahare Sharma. Today's episode we Patrick Mooney and I
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: are joined by Derek Gould. Derek is the long time
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Cardinals beat writer for the Saint Louis Post Dispatch Award
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: winning beat writer. Why did we decide to talk Cardinals?
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: We just find that they're at a fascinating point in
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: building that team. They're not calling it a rebuild, it's
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: a reset. According to Derek and the people with the Cardinals.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: That should sound familiar to Cubs fans. That's not a rebuild,
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: and just the decision to make drastic changes to the
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: front office. Player development is a big area that the
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: Cardinals are focusing on where they fell behind. This should
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: sound familiar to Cubs fans and I think, and I
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: asked Derek about it, I think it's hugely relevant to
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: the Cubs because if this is a significant change in
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: direction as far as one lost record on the field
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: for the major league team one, two, three, however long
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: it takes, however, long the Cardinals are down, the Cubs
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: have to take advantage, right, the Cubs have to take
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: advantage of the Cardinals being down. The Pirates and Reds
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: are the young and talented, sure brewers, that's the team
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: they're chasing, But the Cardinals are perennially have been the
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: team that kind of set the example in the n
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: EL Central the Cubs. If they're down, the Cubs have
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: to take advantage and be more aggressive and make sure
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: that they're at the top. Do all they can to
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: get to the top. That's that's where how I look
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: at this with the Cardinals. With regards to the Cardinals,
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: let's get to our conversation. It's a long one. We thought,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Derek knows this organization inside and out, so let's get
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: right to it. Derek Gould with the Saint Louis Post Dispatch.
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: Derek, thank you for joining us.
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: We always read your coverage and enjoy hearing your thoughts.
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: But I think both of us kind of looked at
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: what's going on in Saint Louis and had.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: Echoes of the Cubs.
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: Trying to kind of reinvent themselves over the years here,
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: and I was just curious maybe to start, like when
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: you look back, obviously you've covered the Cardinals for a
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: long time and have deep institutional knowledge, like what were
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: sort of the the moments or turning points that led
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: up to this eventual transfer of power at Bush Stadium.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, I guess how far back do you want
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: to go?
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, you have gosh. I mean, you could go
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: back to the tragedy, right, which is Oscar Taveris's death
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: there in twenty fourteen, and then the Cardinals trading for
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Jason Hayward. I think maybe the you know, the the
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: the inflection point that would involve the Cubs has mostly
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: to do with Hayward choosing the Cubs over the Cardinals.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: You know, this was the Cardinals model for so long
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: had been trade for a guy, bring him in, sell
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: him on, staying, extend him right, And it was you know,
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: and there were there were examples where that didn't work,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: but most of them were like they spent you know,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: the player and the team spend some time together and decided, yeah,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: we're not for each other, like we'd like to move on.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: This was a This was a case where Hayward had
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: a remarkable season. He was part of a really good team,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: one of the best run prevention teams that I've ever seen.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, borrowed, you know, excuse the comparison,
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: but I mean that Cardinals team in twenty fifteen was
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: like the eighty five Bears of baseball. They just were
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: suffocating when it came to run prevention. A lot of
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: that had to do with defense, and one of the
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: best defensive players was Jason Hayward, who also had a
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: real second half offensively, and it was like this is
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: this is going to work, and like he's connected with
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: his hit. The hitting coaches, you know, Bill Miller, John
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Maybury at the time, and it was just was like okay, yeah.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: And then the Cardinals were going to make this offer
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: unlike they'd ever made before with the accept to a
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: position player. You know, they had David Price that they
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: thought was another deal, which maybe is another inflection point
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: for them when David Price said yeah, I'm gonna come
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: to the Cardinals and then the next day signed with
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Boston at a rate that just could not the Cardinals
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: couldn't match. Dobrowski just came over the top to get him.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: But I really think it is Hayward. I think I
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: think it's Hayward and you know, the initial rush and
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: performance of the team. In response to his younger core comment,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: if you guys remember that, and you know him choosing
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: a deal that I think ultimately was more lucrative for him,
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: but was not guaranteed to be more lucrative for him.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: The Cardinals had the bigger, guaranteed offer, and for them
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: to like go, Okay, we're gonna do this for a
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: position player. We're going to do this for a guy
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: who's been here, who's shown us, you know, and then
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: he chooses to go elsewhere. That was like a crack
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: in the model. That was that was That was it.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: That was the fissure. And then you see them, you know,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: in the in the subsequent years think about it like
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: they're like they just were desperate to get a cleanup hitter.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: They wanted Christian Yelich. That was their preferred get, but
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: the Marlins weren't offering it. The Marlins were controlling who
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: they you know, they weren't offering him, and they they
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: were controlling who they were offering, and they want to
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: get Stanton off the books first. So the Cardinals had
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: a deal in place for Stanton. He said, no, that
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: makes another one who said no, he wanted to go
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: to the Yankees, of course, but the Cardinals had a
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: deal in place the Marlins agreed to, and then that
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: deal became the structure for the Azuna deal that they
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: eventually did make because they were unsure if they would
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: ever get the chance to trade for Yelich and they
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: did not want to leave that musical chair off season
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: without a seat because the alternative. The Giants and the
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Cardinals were in the same conversations, right, and the Cardinals
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: traded for Marcela Zuna. And what did the Giants do?
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: They signed Andrew McCutcheon. So these were the choices that
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: the Cardinals were kind of looking through, and their preference
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: was to go sign Azuna, who was coming off a
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: ferocious year, I mean just really a tremendous year. And
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: then he just didn't he didn't work out here, like
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: he didn't perform like he did with the Marlins or
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: like he has with Atlanta and that so and it
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: cost him Sandy al Contra and Zach Gallon and the
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: list goes on, right, Okay, So you see how like
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: the fissier became a gap, and then the gap became
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: a race to cover it, and then the lessons of
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: Heyward leaving and not wanting to keep Azuna became we
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: got to prove that we're still a destination team. And
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Paul Goldschmid, they trade for him and he signs the extension. Okay,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: models back on track. Oh, Nolan Arnado, once out of Colorado,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: he's willing to come. He's eagerly he's eagerly wanting to
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: come to the Saint Louis. He's wanting to make this
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: where he's willing to manipulate and change and adjust and
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: negotiate his contract to be a Cardinal. Okay, this is it.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: We're We're back on the map. The Cardinals are back
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: on the map. They they they're they're destination team again.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: But in the process of that, they obviously pushed their
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: major league roster and their major league payroll away. That
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: a lot of times we wondered, like, well, when are
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: you why are you stopping one step short of being
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: a juggernaut. Why are you stopping one step short of
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: being a juggernaut. And they would they would point to
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: the spending, they would talk about the commitment to the years,
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: you know, the the times that they were just pitching light.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: They thought that they could rely on a system that
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: to produce pictures and it just wasn't anymore. And so
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: that's the that's kind of how this erosion took place.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: Right the model cracked with Hayward saying I'd rather be
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: a cub and then and I'm not saying that like
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: that was like the like the thing that that wasn't
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: the like final piece or the first piece of the
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: Janngle tower that tatpuled, but at least it's least symbolic
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: of it, and then of what they were chasing ever since.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: You know, along the way, they had managerial fires, they
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: had they had a reduction in staff that they never
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: went back from. They had a pandemic, and they they
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: had a farm system that did not produce the pitching
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: when it was most needed.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: Derek, I find so much of this fascinating, and I
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: want to get to the player development stuff in a moment,
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: but I'm curious about how much I believe it was
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, when they were struggling mightily and then
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: went on just a ridiculous run and ended up making
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: the playoffs. Was that kind of an inflection point too,
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: where maybe changes, more drastic changes would have come had
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: they had they not made that run winning streak. Yeah, yeah,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: they made that run and they made the playoffs. It
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: seemed like, I mean, we'd be looking at three straight
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: playoff list seasons or maybe longer I can't keep track
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: of it, but an extended playoff list run for Saint Louis,
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: which just doesn't happen, not this century, at least, it
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem like that's a thing that happens for the Cardinals.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: So I'm curious, like how much would would think would
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: we be would we been talking about this a year
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: or two ago had that run not happen. Did that
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: kind of give Mo and this group a little bit
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: more of a runway to uh kind of you know,
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: ease the exit. So it wasn't kind of like this
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: were they on the hot seat at that point? I
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: guess I don't think.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: So'll no, because you know, they had they had a
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: quality team, They had a manager that they were about
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: to extend. They did have some you know, some members
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: of the staff that were canaries in the coal mine
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: shouting out problems in the farm system, but they still
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: had the license to improve it. Uh, you had Paul
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Goldschmith with multiple years left. You had Nolan Ronatto with
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: multiple years left. You were not yet at a point
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: where you thought you'd run out of pitching prospects or
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: pitching potential. I mean, you had Alex Reyes as an
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: All Star closer at that point time. You know, he
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: he obviously delivered the pitch that bounced them from the
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: playoffs that year, you know, I think, or well against
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: the Dodgers in that one game wild card playoff. You know,
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: but but he was, you know, he was part of
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: a youth group still. It seems like he was a
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: prospect forever, but he was still part of a group
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: of I mean, you think back, you got d cooda
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: Hudson who had not yet struggled yet. So you had
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: a lot of things going on. Plus you had like
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: just maybe and maybe to your point, like you had
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: the adrenaline rush of because of that winning streak. It
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: was like, Okay, this is finally the team that they
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: thought they'd be. You know, you had Nolan ran out
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: a winning a division for the first time, and he's like, Okay,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: this is why I came here, and you know, he
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: had all that stuff, and then Ryan Helsey was the
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: you know, Ryan Helsey was a part of that group.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: He was a young player with you know, coming up,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: so then you see what he's become now. So I
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: think they had the ingredients there as I'm trying to
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: think back on that roster, uh, regardless of whether they
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: had that winning streak or not. The winning streak was
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: just kind of proof of concept, if you will. But
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: they felt they had the good roster there not to
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: pivot away from it so quickly. They I don't think
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: I don't think they were like, oh, well, you know,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: it wasn't like it wasn't like a six right, Like
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: six that team wins eighty three games, gets healthy, then
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: just blitzes the postseason, wins a World Series, right and
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: then in the six o seven offseason, it's like, okay,
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: well let's bring that team back. It's like, no, those
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: are the fumes that got to the World Series. That
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: team was on fumes. And then they brought the team back,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: and then they had a losing season and seven and
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: that led to a lot of significant changes. It was
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: not like that where it was like, oh, Okay, this
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: is the this is the peak, and this is the
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: these are the fumes of this roster. No, this it
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: was like this is this is this is the roster
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: at full strength and is gonna win eighteen consecutive games
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: all the time. No, that's not going to happen. But
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: can it play like that then absolutely? And can it
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: be outfitted with young talent that was on its way,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: especially a couple of those pictures, then yes, so don't.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: I don't think that that would have led them to
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: pivot to younger. If anything, that would have emboldened them
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: to stick with what they had, in part because you know,
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: they're nucleus. That gold Schmidt Arnatto tandem was still in
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: the midst of their contracts.
• 13:29
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  Speaker 4: Eric, could you reintroduce John Mozilac to us and our audience,
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: because I think it's interesting, Like bit what he's like,
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: a state school guy, non Ivy league guy, Like he
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: came up on the scouting side from like the very
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: lowest rungs of baseball operations, and then you kind of
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: see him with his like bowtie and like tailored sport
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: coats and see where kind of the cardinals have gone
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: and you know, very model heavy and things like that.
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: He also may have been on like a Hall of
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: Fame trajectory when you look at his career and judging
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: by some of the coverage and reactions on social media,
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: it seems like Cardinals fans you know, are ready for
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: a big change in the front office, Like how how
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: does this transition to your work? Where does he go
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: from here? And what is his kind of like I
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: don't know.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: How far and how far? How far back do you
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: want me to go? I mean to his boyhood in Boulder, Colorado.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: No, go way back.
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: It's more more just uh, you know these front offices,
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: the figureheads, you know, kind.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Of towere times when we were a Boulder reservoir, probably
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: at the same time. Both you know, he's a teenager,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: I was a kid. No. Uh, well, so I mean
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: when you say you started the lowest wrong, I mean
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: he quite honestly started as a left handed BP pitcher
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: for the Colorado Rockies and watching him paying attention and
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: picking up mentors there, don Zimmer, you know, and then
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: of course front office guys there, Bob geb Hart being
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: foremost and probably most most well known among them, and
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: then from there from working his way up from BP
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: pitcher left handed BP pitcher, which they needed right and
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: he had a friend of a friend of a friend,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, hey, I know a guy who
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: throws left handed. I know a guy who can throw strikes.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Let's bring him on over. He goes into uh oh,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: yeah and yeah, and he went to see you right,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: started off Arizona, but went but finished at see You
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: there and Boulder, and you know, he uh works his
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: way up and then gets the offer to come to
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: the Cardinals. When walk Walt Jockety takes over with new
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: ownership here in Saint Louis. You know, the brewery had
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: owned the team, sold the team. The group that was
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: not known as the duet group at the time. Really
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: there were other leader leading members of that ownership group.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: It is still the same ownership group and do it
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: as the chairman, but there through the purchasing process there
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: were many other names. Many of them went to school
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: here in Saint Louis at a rather renowned high school
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: here and they knew each other from there, but they
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: all had roots in Saint Louis. But as that group,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: as that ownership group, took over, and while Jockety came
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: in and brought Tony L. Russ in, among the people
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: he brought in was John Ozelak. So you're looking at
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: three decades with the Cardinals, and you know, it's obviously
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: well known that the Cardinals drafted Albert Pools in the
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: later rounds right thirteenth round. It's well known that the
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Cardinals drafted YadA Air Molina. Less well known is the
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: fact that Mozelak was heavily involved in that, Like for
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: some odd reason, that's less well known that and it's
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: not for lack of coverage. It's just for lack of
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know. The things that catch a hook and
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: stay forever are really interesting and I'm not quite sure why,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: but he was involved in that, you know, whether cross
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: checking or running the draft. He was also overseeing things
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: when they had what was called the lost draft, just
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: a draft that they did not invest in that they
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: did not feel like they had a lot of a
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: lot of knowledge for purposefully as they made the shift
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: to analytics, right, and they were pretty early on in
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: the Moneyball run. That of course was related to ownership
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: hiring Luno, and then Mozaillac, who was assistant general manager
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: by this point in time, became very involved in trying
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: to unite those you know, they were kind of by
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: a camera, right, like, you know, they had the pro
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: or the scouting side and the stats side, and if
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: there was a person who went in between it was
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: Mozaillak who was trying to unite them for the common goal.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: He was heavily involved in. Jockety will tell you he
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: was heavily involved in doing some of the contracts identifying
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: some guys. You know, Mark Ridzelanik stands out. You know,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: as the Cardinals went through this second base churn, one
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: of the reasons why they did that is because they
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: thought that, you know, second base was probably the biggest
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: pool of play you could choose from each year. You know,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: you could have shortstops on the downside of their careers,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: their based went on the downside of their careers, second
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: basement young second basemen who had had an injury or
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: struggle and needed to bounce back. They just felt it
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: was the different, the biggest pool, and that you could
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: get a lot of bang for your buck by by
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: churning through that position for a while. And it worked
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: out for them. I mean, you know, Tony Womack on
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: a championship team. Mark Gridzelanik was remarkable here and was
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: really essential to a team that then won one hundred games.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: David Eckstein at shortstop. You think about that team. But anyway,
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: so you see how most fingerprints and influence are all
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: part of that. And then when there was significant fractures
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: in the in the front office and ownership, Bil DeWitt
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Junior decided that the change had to take place. After
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: that losing season in two thousand and seven, Mosaic was
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: the interim for about thirty days and then on Halloween
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: of that year he was named the general manager. And
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of that reason was because he had been
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: able to mend defenses and create get people to work together,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: and that he saw the DeWitt's vision of you know, yeah,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: making profit and being more nimble and being more aggressive
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: with analytics and continuing to find a model that had
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: both a strong farm system but also a payroll that
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: punched above the size of its market. And this was
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: the model, right, you know, get people in, win them
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: over with the culture, with the winding habits, spend above
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: the market because of the support of the fans and
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: ty payroll to three point two million, three point four
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: million whatever they had coming in, and then have a
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: farm system to make it all work and make it
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: all possible, and not drain that farm system with trades
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: with you later and in twenty eleven, the Cardinals won
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: the World Series and had the number one farm system
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: and they're very proud of that, like that daily double, right,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: like do you have the championship at the major league
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: level and you have the industry saying you also have
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: the best farm system. And then a few years later,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: mozay Loac, I don't know how much in the weeds
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: you want me to get here, but he gets promoted
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: to president of Baseball Operations. He says at the time
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: that one of the reasons for the promotion was it
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: would free him up because he felt the Cardinals were
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: losing some of their edge and he wanted to regain
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: that and that that was going to be a priority
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: for him. Was looking at areas where they could regain
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: some of their competitive advantage and yes, some of their
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: business advantage. And it does not it bores people, I'm sure,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: but part of that was, you know, the Memphis Redbirds,
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: their Triple or their Triple A affiliate was run as
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: a not for profit and that's how it was established,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: and that was causing it was a good thing, and
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: they they've maintained some of that charitable edge, but it
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: was causing issues with improvements and continued relationships and the
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Cardinals just wanted that to be there forever affiliate, and
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: their idea was to buy it, and Mozilla kind of
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: led that, how do you move it out of this
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: not for profit and move all those implications out? What
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: does that mean for a ballpark and the city, right,
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: because these are separate things, the team and the ballpark.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: And so he spent a lot of time traveling down
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: there for city board meetings, lobbying all that stuff, and
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: so this was part of like his like, well, this
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: is what we're gonna do. He wanted to build a
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: pitching lab. He wanted to radically modernize and enhance the
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: team's spring training facility for about a decade now they've
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: known that it's a decade behind, so that puts it
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: even another decade behind. But they were, you know, all
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: these things just have not they haven't gone at the
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: speed that he wanted, the Cardinals wanted. But specifically let
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: me underscore that he wanted and that he specifically talked
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: about doing when he was President Baseball Operations. You know,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: pulls off the trade for Paul Goldschmid. Some fast forwarding
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: a few more years, they get back into the playoffs.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: This obviously is just after the era of the Cubs
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: winning their first World Series, which came a year after
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: they bounced the Cardinals a pretty good Cardinals team from
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: October and continued the descent that we talked about. So
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: now the Cardinals are back in the playoffs. Things are
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: going well. They like the team they have, They're building
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: it around Paul Goldsmith. They feel like the farm system
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: is better. Not to glance over the hacking scandal that
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: took place that then wiped out a first round for
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: them and also put a dent in their reputation. That
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: also happened in all this time just before the promotion
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: to President Baseball Operations. So you have all this going on, right,
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: but now they have a footing. They feel like they're
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: going in a direction. Mo talks about having a succession plan.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: He starts putting that in place. You start hearing from
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: more of his lieutenants. There's a few promotions. I'm not
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: sure the timing of it, but there are a few
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: promotions where now they have multiple assistant general managers instead
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: of just one. You see, and this is on purpose.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: They show you the flow chart of decisions and how
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: voices are growing, and it's not just Mozaillic leading it,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: and then a pandemic happens, and then the Cardinals have
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: an outbreak that puts them nineteen days out. And ever
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: since then, Mozaellic has been back. In the days leading
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: up to the shutdown and that spring training leading up,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: there was more from other members of the front office.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: General manager Michael Gersh was more prominent, he was doing
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: some of the public media things. But in the that
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: followed the pandemic and then the years that have followed since,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: it's been Mozailla back very clearly as the face of
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: the front office and very much doing a lot of
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: the day to day that we used to associate with
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: the general manager and now we associate with the president
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Baseball operations. But not seeking out, but in addition to that,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: also trying to find these edges that just kept coming,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: you know, just being out of reach for them. Whether
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, they were supposed to break ground a
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: year plus ago on their new facility in Jupiter, got
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: all the construction, got it already and everything like that,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: and then a third party, I guess it would be
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: a fourth party, because the Marlins are the third party,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: I guess, But a fourth party did not have the
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: right permits, so delayed it twelve months. I mean, this
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: is what they've run into, and you go, well, why
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: wasn't that taken care of? Well, I mean, to be honest,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: they hire people to do that, and it's hard to
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: go like, well, the Cardinals make a bad choice, then
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Marlins make a bad choice on that. No, they just
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: the person they hired or the entity that they wasn't
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: one person. The entity that they hired just didn't navigate bureaucracy, right,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: I think we can all empathize with not being able
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: to navigate bureaucracy, But but it doesn't cost us.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: A year of that sounds like yeah, right, that's not no.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: So that so that's a long winded answer of how
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: they got here along the way. One other thing, like,
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: you know, there's just this urban legend of Jeff Luna,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: who was a huge part of what the Cardinals did
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: and how they modernize. But like lost from that the
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: big glowing neon Marquee lights and how prominent Jeff Luna
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: was and how much he talked about all the things
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: he was doing. Was the rule mosaic played in that,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: you know. I mean, like there are there are a
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: lot of examples of the late round picks that the
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Cardinals took that they had great success in and a
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: lot of a lot, a lot of credit has not
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: gone to signte All for that for some of the
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: stuff that he did that helped them find small college
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: guys like Matt Adams stands out a couple of the
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: pictures that contributed not many stars, but also Trevor Rosenthal
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: was really good, right, Trevor Rosenthal was a great closer
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: for the Cardinals, and he was drafted with one of
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: these like gut sticker kind of things right that they
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: put like a like this guy's gonna work out. But
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: he also was drafted like under the schematic that Mozelak said,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: look when in doubt picked the athlete, like he was like,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: I want to find athletic pictures. And they talked about
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: this and Mozillic, this brings it all the way back, right,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: you're talking about the scouting aspect, Yeah, brought to it.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: That is where that came in. So he had all
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: these analytics, they had really beefed up. They were doing great,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: and then you know Mozaillaic adds that little nudge at
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: the end, like when in doubt take the athlete, and
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: so they took Trevor Rosenthal, who was a strong arm shortstop,
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: and they're like, this guy can be a pitcher for us.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: And there are a lot of examples of that. Carlos
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Martinez is an example of that. He signed as a
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: shortstop with the Red Sox, but the Cardinals worked to
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: sign him as a pitcher. And so you look at
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: some of the some of the strong pitching development that
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: they had there, of which brett Strom also deserves a
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: lot of credit for. And Mozilla's influence on that is
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: is is there even if it didn't get trumpeted when
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: when the other folks did. When they move elsewhere, that
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: that tends to be the case, right like when somebody
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: else moves elsewhere, all the things that they succeeded where
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: they were get celebrated. So I guess maybe that's something
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: that Mozilla didn't have, right, Like, he didn't go elsewhere,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: so you know, to beat writers like me didn't really
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: didn't really write a whole lot about what he was doing,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: or it didn't get as much attention nationally because he
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: didn't move. Yeah, you know, he had his chances to move,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: but he didn't.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: Derek I talked about the player development. Obviously, it sounds
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: like time Bloom was brought in, uh partly for that originally.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: And and now he's obviously going like part of the
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: succession plan and will be in charge.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: And I guess is a succession plan.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Yes he is.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: He is a part of it. He is.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: And my like, just you know, looking at it from afar,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: I it feels like to me, he got a raw
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: deal in Boston, Like he didn't really get a chance
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: to see out a plan that he had in place
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: that seems decently thought out, you know, when you're forced
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: to trade a superstar like Mookie Betts. It wasn't like
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: he was like, this is the best idea in the
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: world to trade this guy. Uh. And looking at their system,
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: it clearly he had some sort of positive impact in Boston.
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: I'm curious how much of that from what I know,
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: which is not nearly as much as you They amateur
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: scouting is solid there. They do a good job of drafting,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: identifying talent. Player development is behind, and this is an
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: area where Patrick started with the Cubs were behind five
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: years ago. They I think it was THEO that made
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: the comment the Winner's curse that they got hit by
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: the winner's curse and they were winning, so they thought
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: everything was good, so why make these changes? And they
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: were against the direction player development was headed in this business.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: And the reality is player development is so much more
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: important than we thought, you know, ten, fifteen, whatever, twenty
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: years ago, and there's a much bigger impact that can
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: be made. How hesitant has Saint Louis been to making
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: those changes or is it just part of you know,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: what happened there? And is that the area that you'd
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: point to as well, like this is this has to
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: be addressed and this is this is where him can help.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, since I started on this beat
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: and had a chance to kind of talk with you know,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: one of the benefits when I started on the beat
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: was just like the people I got to work with with,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: you know where you know, the late Joe Strauss and
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: the late Ric Kummel, and how much knowledge they brought
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: to baseball, but also how much they covered like just
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: the the just they they were the you know, they
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: were the ocean, right, and that left the little continents
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: for me to cover and and and one of the
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: continents was player development. And so you know, I remember
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: pretty early on getting a lot of chance to talk
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: with even George Kissel obviously, who's a legend here in
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: Saint Louis, but also you know Bruce Manna, who was
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: was heavily involved in farm director here and uh, you
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: know just a lot about that. And and I bring
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: that up just because it became the way I kind
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: of looked at it, and having maybe having grown up
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: around Triple A baseball and sort of the minor league
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: notion and reading Baseball America so much, I always thought like,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: it's very interesting how much we celebrate where a guy
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: is drafted and when a player debuts, and like then
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: there's like the the b locked box between the two,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: like where all the good stuff happens, right, And I
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: often thought about that, like why why do we like
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: just like redact this area of the player's career. And
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: so when I set set out, I was like, all right,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: this is what I'm gonna do. I want to try
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: to always think of players through this prism draft development debut.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: And even when like I was doing the player the
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: prospect rankings for Baseball America, I would think about that.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: I would think about, like, okay, you know, yes, fine
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: ranked them high because of where they were drafted, but
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: do not rank them high solely on where they were drafted.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Also consider the prominence of their position shortstop for example,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: high demand, catcher, high demand, but also proximity to the
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: majors and what development did for them. Who is this
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: player now, not who were they when they were coming
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: out of high school right, not who they wor coming
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: out of college. And so we've had a real chance here,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: you know, and the Cardinals have had farm directors Gary
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Lorock most recently, who's retiring, who were eager to kind
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: of talk about the development thing and which just sagged
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: behind because of infrastructure. And it has been a real
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: focal point for us in covering for a long time
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: because you know, going back, you could go back ten
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: years and we write about how they were expediting arrivals, right,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: and they were they were getting them to the majors younger,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: in part because they were like, look, star players are
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: there in their mid twenties and there's not this quota
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: of at bats and quota of innings that they need
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: to check mark in the minors. Let them go. You know.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: I remember writing about like the different stages that the
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Cardinals had set up as far as what they wanted
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: to see from pitchers, command of fastball, command of two pitches,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: commit you know, this kind of thing at each level,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: and once you did that, you moved up. And then
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: also how they viewed double A as on the brink
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: of triple A, like they would promote from double A
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: to the majors. They saw that gap and they weren't
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: alone in this, but they saw that gap as not
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: a significant between double A and triple A as it
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: was between those two levels and the majors. So I
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: like talking about player development. And then over the last
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: few years, this again goes back to the pandemic. Really,
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: they just have had this erosion of infrastructure. They haven't
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: been able to have the investment. They did make an
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: investment in tech, and then in some cases the tech
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: just sat there, not used because this staff didn't either
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: know or didn't feel it was valuable, or some thought
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: it was alchemy, statistical alchemy and not actual different, you know,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: not something that would actually make a difference. They outfitted
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: every player with blast devices, got really good responses for hitting,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: They built a hitting barn, they made advances. Mason Win
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: is definitely a product of all the investment and Alec
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: Burroson is two in the development of hitters. You know,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: they got that and Jeff Albert was a big part
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: of that, and they they just didn't get that same
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: thing on the pitching side. They didn't get the investment,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: they didn't get the pitching lab up and running, and
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: then when they had reductions of staff, they didn't fill
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: it out. They they haven't had a field coordinator for
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: a while. They had one after Mark Dejon, but they
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: but he left and they didn't refill that. They didn't
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: they had a catching coordinator briefly several years ago. They don't.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: They haven't had the roaming instructors that they once did
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: at their peak. They just haven't filled jobs. Their minor
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: league staffs are far smaller than their rivals. You know,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: they might have one or two kind of level of
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: coaches that most teams have for pitchers at every level,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: one or two at every level of Cardinals might have
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: one or two total for their minor league system, depending
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: on what the what the depending on how you look
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: at those responsibilities, their titles. They just have had this
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: over time. And then add in the fact that and
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: they'll they'll they'll acknowledge this. They came out of the
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: lost year of twenty twenty for minor leagues and they're like, well,
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: let's treat it as if that happened, and they pushed
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: everybody up a level and we're very aggressive with that,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: and the result was the worst system, one of the
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: worst system winning percentage since the sixties, not for the Cardinals,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: but in all a minor league basement. Wow. So I
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: like the bottom five winning and the big root cause
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: of that was poor pitching. Just they they had, you know,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: I mean you just look at the TV eras or
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: whatever you want to look at there, how many runs
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: they gave up total, and it just was like astonished.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: It was galactically problematic. And they had to kind of
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: reposition after that. And you know, it wasn't that they
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: didn't have talent in the system, it's just how it
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: was then being used, what level it was at. And
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: then the complete lack of a modern structure around it
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: was catching up with them. Well no, actually, let me
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: rephrase that. The lack of a modern structure, the pushing
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: them ahead, all of that did catch up with them.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: It wasn't catching up with them. And then we had
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: the added point that they didn't have a first round
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: pick in twenty seventeen, which is this is about the
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: time that they would really get some impact from twenty
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: seventeen and that didn't happen.
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: Looking forward, Derek like, what is your gut feel on
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: kind of what the Bloom era may look like, how
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: it may impact the Cups Cardinals' rivalry, because I feel like,
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: you know, when THEO and then Madden came to.
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: Chicago, that was certainly a shift.
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: And Andrew Friedman went to the Dodgers people like like, wow,
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: this could be Oh yeah. Even David Stearns has made
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: an impact in New York from afar, like sid have said,
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: I get what they're doing.
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: I think it could work.
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: I think bloom still has a lot to show the
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: wait at that level. What's been kind of the local
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: reaction in your read on where this is this is heading?
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: You know, it's it's it's tough in two senses. One,
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: you know, you don't want to say that social media
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: is reflective of the whole fan base, right Like, it's
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: just it's a lot. It's the loudest called to sack,
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: but maybe it's the loudest neighborhood now but uh, I
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: think I think there's just there's fatigue and time is
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: somebody new, so that that's helpful. I mean, we we
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: spent some time here kind of cataloging the length of
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: time that this front office group, particularly most has been here.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: That's just that's a long time, you know that. I mean,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: it is and he recognizes that. The Cardinals recognize that
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: they've put such an emphasis on continuity. And I remember
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: back in like twenty nineteen, twenty eighteen, when we had
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: one of these press conferences with ownership and I asked
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: them if continuity, if they ever worry that continuity becomes
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: a euphemism for accepting a team that's become stale, like
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: are they stale or siloed off? And I got heavy
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: pushback on that question. But a few years later I'm like, well,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: I kind of maybe had a point, right, So time
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: is new and fresh, and so that's being well received.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: I don't you know, I don't think people buy tickets
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: or don't buy tickets based on the front office. There
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: are definitely some people in Saint Louis who are out
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: to prove me wrong on that, which is fine, But
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if they'll buy tickets to
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: come see I'm bloom. But I think one thing that
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: the Cardinals have in mind is, all right, what has
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: Tampa Bay done really well? And what have the Dodgers
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: benefited from because of what Tampa Bay does really well?
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: All Right?
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: What did him learn from being with the Red Sox
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: as far as baseball royalty, baseball legacy, baseball pressure and
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: championship expectations. Now, if you give him a chance, which
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: to Sahata's point, maybe he didn't get in Boston, if
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: you give him a chance to do the Tampa Bay
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: thing with a historic team and a bigger payroll. Ultimately,
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, he's got a five year deal, which means
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: he'll be here six more years. His five year deal
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: doesn't start until he takes over, So this is not
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: a small commitment on either side. And I know that
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: contracts guaranteed dollars, not years, But there is a definite
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: implication here that he is going to get a long
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: runway to lead them into what they want to be
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: part of. That is because of the TV situation, the
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: ticket sales and everything like that, he's not going to
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: have the full wallet from which to to you know,
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: to see if he can swing and and you know,
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: do some damage in the division with bigger spending until
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: later you know they're they're gonna trim costs.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: The way that Mosalla put it, I thought was really
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: interesting was like they're gonna reduce cast he said it.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: They're gonna reduce payroll, and they want to get into
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: a spot where all the things that they are going
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: to try to accomplish this year. When that is ready
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: to contend, they spend. And it sure seems like okay,
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: that that model makes sense, that that actually if they
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: do it that way is kind of the argument that
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: has been going on here for several years is why
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: stop just shy of spending so much like you know,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: we asked, like, okay, you traded for Paul Goldsmith, makes
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: a lot of sense. You're gonna get a really good place,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: a really good value. That why then stop? Why not
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: then say all right, well, Bryce Harper, you want to
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: be a part of this, right because that was either
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: at the same time or you know why like you
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: get I mean, Gibson Lynn and Sonny Gray are different examples,
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: but like the stopping short like of why not go
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: after that top picture or even the third best picture
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: in the market and instead say, well, we're gonna throw
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: four home grown and one one year veteran on a
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: bounce back at that problem. So I'm eager to see
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: if if they are able to you know, air traffic
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: control or triangular or whatever verb you want to use,
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: right or analogy you want to use, all these pieces
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: to come together at a time. When Heim then is
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: in charge, he has the farm system that he modernized
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: and built in Essentially, they are handing him a classic
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: car and saying, we need you to make this energy
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: efficient and then we need you to drive it, and
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: when you do that, then we will give you the
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: custom paint job of your dreams. Like that's what they're doing.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: And I'm eager to see how that works.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I I am too. I I I think this
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: this question, I think is very relevant to the Cubs because,
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: in my opinion, if what you're saying works and works well,
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: the Cardinals once again become that team that the Cubs
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: were talking about, you know, a decade plus ago of
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: like we have we're this is who we're chasing, right
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: this is who we want to be. This is and
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: right now, that's the Brewers. I think that's very interesting
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: how that that narrative has shifted and the.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: Brewers because you know what we're talking here October ninth
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: and there, and they're not They're not really impressive. I
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: give them a lot of credit. That was a really
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: impressive year. But I don't, I don't know. I go
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: ahead with your question, but no, no, I reserve the
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: right to ask a question of you guys that I
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: would really like to ask.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't disagree with the where I think
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: you're headed. I think my point is as far as
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: the division goes, that's who these teams are chasing, right
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: and and what the Brewers have done is impressive in
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: that sense. But postseason is it seems to be a
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: different beast. But what I'm curious about is these how
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: how far down are we looking for the Cardinals as
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: far as is this is this a rebuild? Like? How
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: how bad could this get for them? As far as
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: Major League product twenty six? Is this a point where
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: the Cubs don't have to worry about the Cardinals for
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: the next two years, which, if it's true in my
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: in my opinion, all the more reason why the Cubs
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: need to be aggressive right now.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a great question. Uh, I still
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: reserve the right to ask my question. I don't I
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: want to see how they get through this winter, you know,
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: because like they're gonna go young, right, Well, does that
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: mean they're gonna trade Ryan Helsley? If they cherried Ryan Helsley,
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: that's a huge signal, right, I think I think they
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: have these signals along the way, right. Maybe first and
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: foremost would be what they do with the option of
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: Kyle Gibson. If they're out to just cut costs, which
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: they are, then that's an easy twelve to drop, right,
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: even for a guy that you could really use, especially
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: if you want to bend young elsewhere in the rotation.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: It'd be pretty good to have a veteran like that
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: who pitched like he did. Who you know, I'll add this,
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: who meant a lot to that clubhouse. He meant a
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: lot to that club He brought a lot. It was
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: there were times where it was like, you know, men
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: like the the Cardinals clubhouse, right, you know, the guys
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: who've been club Cardinals forever, Adam Waynwright, you know, Chris
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: Carpon will come back around and everything like that. And
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: it was like Kyle Gibson's been here for five minutes
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: and it feels like he was here for fifty years.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, he just was that guy and it was
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: very clear. So they make that call, then it's money.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: I mean there's unless they like come out with like
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: a real explanation baseball wise, it's money. So I think
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: that's another one that that signals how competitive they're gonna
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: be this year. The big ones are conversations yet to
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: be had ongoing with Arnatto and Sonny Gray. Sonny Gray
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: specifically signed here to contend every year and also be
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: close to home. If the Cardinals are not gonna do that,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: will he waive his no trade clause to go to
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: a team that he thinks has a better chance to win.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: Arnatto orchestrated and was receptive to that trade and made
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: it possible by deferring a lot of money to win.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: And if the Cardinals are gonna, you know, go, well,
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: you know we're gonna bend more towards the Rockies than
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: we are the Dodgers. You know, that's really not why
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: he's here. And so I think those things along those lines.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: I'll add this part though, like they say they're going young,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: but let's qualify that because like Large new Bar is
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: entering the middle part of his late twenties, Brendan Donovan
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: is entering the later part of his or his late twenties.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: These are two guys who they want big things from
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: and while they their youth, they still have youth, right,
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: they still have pictures in players twenty five or under
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Mason Wynn, Jordan Walker and Nolan Gorman, you know, Avan Herrera.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: These guys are still talents that are younger than twenty five.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: There are parts of this team that, if you say
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: go young, are still supposed to be in their peaks,
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: and if you're not getting peak production from them, they're
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: not going to be a part of the future. So
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: I think that's a real interesting part of this, like
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: are they going to try to walk the line again?
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Are they really? Are they gonna They not calling it
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: a rebuild, they're calling it a reset. And for a
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: lot of this time they've kind of balanced on this
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: fence of not going all in and not going all
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: out And are there elements where they're still gonna do
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: that same thing here? And I wonder if that means
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: that they're gonna kinda probably muddle around that five hundred again,
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: But will they show signs that they're gonna zoom ten
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: wins higher, eleven wins higher. So I'm really eager to
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: see just how far they go. Then that's bring us
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: back to the hellsy thing where if they trade him
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: and try to just get the haul of prospects that
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: he would bring in, then that's a sign that Okay,
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: now we're really looking at this as like playing in
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. Who's gonna help in twenty twenty seven?
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: I then will watch for what does that mean for
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Lars newpar Where does that put Brendan Donovan. Brendan Donovan
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: who could be the leader of this team in a
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: lot of ways, in a real classic kind of cardinal player,
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: where does he fit into that world as he nears
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: and reaches arbitration and control for three more years while
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: they are they going to contend in those three years?
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: So I don't really have an answer for you because
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: it's October, but I think that that by Christmas is
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: going to be a really fascinating question. All right, So
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: now can I ask my question if you guys?
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll call it a reset.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: We'll call it a Yeah. I just I was struck
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: by the fact that they just went so far out
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: of the way not to call it a rebuild. I
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: asked Bill DeWitt Junior. I said, I said, are you
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: is this a rebuild? And I said like, and He's like, no, well, no, no, no,
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: we we were using the word reset. And I was like, okay, well,
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: what does that mean. What's the message to the fans.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: Put it in their terms, not business terms like not like.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: Put it in terms that the fans connect with, not
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: the not the not the terms that like, you know,
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: the twelve, the twelve priorities of business understand, like that
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: the the boardroom understand. And he said, we're going young.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: He said, we are going young. That's the message to fans.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: We are going young. But that they never once said
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: that meant uncompetitive. It could mean that we're going young,
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: quote unquote, and if those young players perform and they'll compete.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: So my question to you guys is, what the heck
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: is the deal with the National League Central saying we're
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: gonna you know, the Cubs you just mentioned it. The
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: Brewers certainly are built this way, win the division, win
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: the division, win the division. Anybody want to step out
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: of line of the National League Central and say we're
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: gonna win the National League Like, yeah, just so coastal.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: Now that they're like, well, we got our little like
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: acreage of the continent. We're gonna try to win here, guys,
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: and then see what it takes in October, because it
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: ain't working in October, not like it used to. So
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: who's gonna step out and say, you know, hey, Midwest Pride,
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: We're gonna I mean, the ark in League Central is
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: doing all the heavy lifting. What's right that?
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: Like, I I don't disagree with you, Derek, And it's
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: something Patrick brings up a lot, and I think Patrick's right, Like,
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: what what is the message here? Is it? Why are
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: we talking about the division like this? There was a
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: different message when THEO arrived and and when THEO was
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: in charge in fifteen and sixteen and those years. The
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: message wasn't try to yeah, sure, get in the playoffs
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: year after year after year. That's that should be the goal. Absolutely,
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: But the where's the World Series talk? I feel like
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: Council kind of went there when he said, like we
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: have to have higher aspirations and and and talked about,
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: you know, building a ninety win team. I think those are.
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: That's a little bit more aggressive than than what we've
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: been hearing of late. But I think you're right. I
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: think you make a good point, like why why is
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: this talk about the division that? What is that? That's
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: you know, that's football talk. That's you know, the Bears
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: saying we're gonna win the North and never or take
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: the North and never give it back. I appreciate that
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: when when you're facing the Green Bay Packers and all that,
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: but still like World Series should be the goal winning. Yeah,
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: taking out the Dodgers in Atlanta and those types of
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: teams and Phillies that I agree with you one hundred percent.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't know why the they're like it's
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: like verboating to talk about those Yeah, I don't.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: I don't get it either. I mean, it just seems
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: like the Dodgers are such a financial and player development
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: beast that no team wants to be like, well, we're
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: going to take that on except for the Padres. But
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: I have to, you know, I just if I find
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: that fascinating, and it's something that I've asked the Cardinals
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: about and they can push back because you know that
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: those top those top seats really haven't worked out, but
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: we'll see. But you know, the bye week hasn't exactly
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: been the the buffer that that you want to earn necessarily,
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: but the notion that, like you go win the division
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: and try to get in. Totally understand that. In fact,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: THEO was one of the first guys to ever bring
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: that up to me back in two thousand and four
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: in the World Series. I find it very fascinating. He
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: was the guy who first kind of talked about, like
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: just the randomness of the postseason. So build a team
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: to get there and then see how hot you can
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: get while you're there. The four team being a great
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: oh four Boston team being a great example as they
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: took down one of the best Cardinal teams this city's
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: ever seen in four games. And you know, he brought
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: that up, and Cardinal fans get frush. They're just building
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: a team to eke into the playoffs and then get lucky.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: It's like, well, that's every team, every team is that.
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, Jerry Depoto said it out loud and everybody,
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: like everybody had a spit take. I was like, we've
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: been hearing this for years. You know, THEO brought up
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: a four but the notion that like the National League
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: Central Is is sequestering itself into this little tournament to
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: decide who loses in the first round. It's just a joke.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: I agree.
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, you got the sound bite right there.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like they're the mid major. Go
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: be a big ten.
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: I do think you it feels like you've been reading
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: some of our slack messages and.
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: Like brainstorming sessions.
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: That's hot at I had had of like kind of
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: off season stories that we're working on, because yeah, I
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: do think teams kind of take on certain elements of
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: their leadership. And when you're talking about projections instead of parades,
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: and when you.
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: Point to the Diamondbacks getting in last year as this
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: like shining example of randomness as opposed to what the
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: Cubs when.
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: They were puffing their chests out not that long ago,
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: was wanting to be like the New England Patriots, the
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: Golden State Warriors. Obviously we're talking about you know, the
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: Belichick Brady Patriots, not what's going on now, but like
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: they want to be like Manchester United, you know, like
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: like global thing. And now it's like, you know, there's
• 54:54
  Speaker 4: a daunting gap between them and the Brewers, Like, are
• 54:56
  Speaker 4: you kidding me?
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: Like that's like I get.
• 54:59
  Speaker 4: The whole point of you have to get him over
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: and over and over again. That's something you know that
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: is kind of I think everyone agrees upon now.
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: But just the this lowering of sites.
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: And kind of softening of expectations is definitely. I'm sure
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: Scott Boris has some sort of Midwest analogy that he'll
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: be uh prodding out this this offseason, but you're right
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: it is.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he'll come up with something. He'll call it the
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: flyover country, like a trophy only flies over it.
• 55:33
  Speaker 4: You look at you look at the Yankees, both New
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: York teams, You look at the Padres are a direct
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: reflection of their late owner and their Maverick GM.
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: Like, uh, and that's what I wonder.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: And they didn't run a debt like let's we should
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: call it. They did run a debt and need help,
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: So there is something there there.
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: But I think you're absolutely right of.
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: Just teams, you know, the mid Major Division is sadly accurate.
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's where we're at. I mean, it's just it's
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: I find it fascinating because like, like Houston can do
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: what Houston did right and However, many ALCS is a
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: seven I think right, seven in a row and constantly
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: in the playoffs, and they can they they can play
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: to the randomness of the postseason and yet get there
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: and turn it on its ear, and not just do
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: it with the same manager. Though it should be noted
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: that that manager is back in the postseason and sure
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: seems to have an approach with a new team that
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: is I don't know if it'll get to the ALCS,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: but it it's working with a team that a lot
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: of people did not think would emerge from five hundred,
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: let alone play past the NL Central, the entire NL
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: Central in the postseason. So there's there is something there.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: There's definitely something to the randomness of the postseason. Get in,
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: get hot, get going. The Dodgers are on the brink.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: Part of why they're on the brink is because they
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: don't have the pitching. Part of it is they're also
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: facing a blowtorch designed to beat them. Right, We'll see
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: if that happens, but that team is out. The Padres
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: are out to beat them, and they have a manager
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: who is eager to do that. I speak from knowledge
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: of this. The Yankees will see where the Yankees go,
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: they seem to be better positioned. And I find it
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: fascinating the argument out of New York that that the
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: Yankees have to beat the American League Central. I think
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: that's a really interesting positioning to the postseason because I mean,
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: it's true, but they spend all year, are going up
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: against one of the toughest divisions in baseball, you know,
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: that American League East, and now to get to the
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: promised land of a Pennant in the World Series, they
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: got to beat the American League Central if they falter, Like,
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: what are the ingredients that Houston has had and what
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: are the ingredients that we see Aj Hinch rely on
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: in Detroit to tell us what October? How how you
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: reduce the probably? How you reduce the randomness baseball all probability?
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yeah?
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: How do you shrink the randomness? Because you're never gonna
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: get away from it, because you're going to run into
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: a Jeff Weaver who is pitching great, or a Madison
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: Bumgardner who's pitching great, or a Nathany Valdi who's pitching great,
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: or a Arizona team that just plays a style that
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: causes havoc right and has hot hitters at the right time,
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: and also good pitching and bullpen that throws a lot
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: of But so how do you reduce the randomness? And
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: that seems to be a key point for the NL
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: Central to get to where which of these teams is
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: going to be Houston? Which of these teams is going
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: to be Houston and not say we're out to win
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: the division because the American League West is pretty it
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: is pretty vulnerable to a long term you know, division
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: leader or has been hard to say the NL Central
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: isn't the same all right.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean the Cubs should be that. There's
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: no reason why the Cubs shouldn't be that team right
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: taking over this division. There's no other financial comparison in
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: the division, and they should you know, I'm sure they
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: think it's true, but they should have the power in
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: the front office to be able to do this right.
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: It's the decision making and the people they certainly have,
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: you know, Jed Hoyer has the background. Uh, we just
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: haven't seen the results yet with this team. I I
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: think it's a fascinating discussion, Derek and I think we
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: could we could probably talk to you for another hour here.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: Uh uh, it's.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: All save it for the GM meetings.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, right, right together then or winter meetings over
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: the Yukon.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: Jack, Yes, exactly exactly.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: Which oh, I guess the Brewers. The Brewers get that.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, uh barely. Thanks so much for joining us, Derek.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: We appreciate it. You have. I really appreciate your knowledge
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: of this organization. Clearly a fascinating time right now with them.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: And uh, I'm fascinated to see where it goes. I'm
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: curious to see how what direction it goes and and
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: how good, how much of an impact Bloom has over
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: the the you know, however long it'll be uh, because
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: I think it. I you know, I think it's going
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: to be good. I just don't know when. Uh. And
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: I think that's fascinating to follow because with Saint Louis
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: it was always like when. Now that's that's the answer,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: when it'll be good. And yeah, so it's a little
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: it's a little different, but it also doesn't mean it's bad.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate it. Well, we'll
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: talk to you soon. We'll hit you up, I guess
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: a month from now in San Antonio.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: So good, Thank you, Derek.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. Guys.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: Have a great day.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much for the invitation.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much to Derek Gould for joining us. Like
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: I said, he has a ton of info on the Cardinals.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: It's like reading a book on the Cardinals when listening
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: to Derek talk. Just fascinating stuff, really interesting point where
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: the Cardinals are at. Thank you so much for listening
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: to us. This is north Side Territory. Make sure to rate, review,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: subscribe on all your different platforms, subscribe on YouTube. That
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: helps us a ton, and of course subscribe to Patrick
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: and my work at the Athletic. We will be on
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: top of the Cubs all winter long. Obviously a big
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: point for the Cubs as well, not just the Cardinals.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: The Cubs have a lot of work to do. We
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: have a month of playoff and then the off season
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: begins in earnest. We will see what direction the Cubs go,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: what they can do. We know what direction they're headed
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: as far as what they need to do as far
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: as winning and losing. But where do they go to
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: get those wins is the question, and then we'll be
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: looking to answer those for you in the coming weeks.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening everyone. Take care,