Latest / Identity at the Center / #338 - European Identity & Cloud Conference 2025 Preview with Warwick Ashford

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#338 - European Identity & Cloud Conference 2025 Preview with Warwick Ashford · Identity at the Center

0:00
What's the difference between digital identity and identity
0:03
and access management? This is a question we've asked
0:05
multiple times to many people around the world and have never
0:09
heard the same answer twice. So I'm curious to see what your
0:12
what your interpretation of. Here's what digital identity is,
0:16
and then here's what identity and access management is.
0:20
Well, I, I think the, the clue is, is kind of just the in the
0:23
works. There is, is kind of digital
0:25
identities, your identity in this kind of digital world that
0:29
we now live in because everything has an identity.
0:33
So that's why this year at EIC we're focusing on non human
0:36
identity because this is while everything that transacts has an
0:40
identity. So we've got to deal with human
0:42
and non human identities and then digital identity and access
0:47
management is kind of really your map is managing those
0:50
identities. So to make sure that the the
0:52
these identities are, are have the correct governance around
0:56
them and that they have the correct policies around them.
0:59
So I kind of see them as being very closely related.
1:02
But you know, digital identity is, is kind of general concept
1:06
is about, about being able to kind of identify people and
1:10
things in the context of a digital transaction.
1:14
And, and the, and the management parties just managing those
1:17
identities to make sure that they're kind of fastened down
1:20
and that there is there is correct governance and policy
1:23
around them. So I don't know, maybe I've
1:25
misunderstood the question, but for me that's kind of the way
1:28
that falls out in my head. This is identity at the centre
1:38
if it has anything to do with IAM.
1:41
This is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff
1:48
Steadman. Welcome to the Identity of the
1:56
Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim.
1:57
Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
2:00
Oh, not so bad yourself. I'm doing great.
2:02
You know, I, I think this is episode what, 338338?
2:08
Yeah. It's weeks like this that make
2:10
me reflect on how big a deal that is that we haven't missed
2:13
weeks. I mean, my work calendar has
2:17
been absolutely slammed. Our guest today, I had to
2:20
reschedule this meeting twice. So this was third try.
2:24
I guess third tries to charm since we're all here.
2:28
I also noticed, and this is a big thank you to our listeners,
2:32
we had 600,000 downloads or plays on the audio version of
2:38
the podcast, so thanks for everyone who's listening.
2:41
Yeah, I, I was a little bit delinquent in getting that out
2:44
there on to our LinkedIn. But yeah, 600,000, who would
2:46
have thought? And we had 500,000 in December
2:49
at Gartner because I had if you, if you missed our session at
2:52
Gartner when we were on stage with I had mentioned that we had
2:55
just recently crossed 500,000. So yeah, we're we're picking up
2:58
steam still, which is amazing. Yeah, it is amazing.
3:02
And I think the the formula for us has been consistency and
3:07
great guests. So we have a great guest today.
3:10
We stay consistent in terms of putting out an episode every
3:13
Monday. We're also on on YouTube now, so
3:16
that's not even counted in that statistic.
3:18
But if you want to see us, you want to see our guests.
3:22
I know this format is not great for video right an hour long
3:27
just looking at people talking to each other, but at least it's
3:31
an option if you're into it. You know, I think some people
3:34
like it, some people don't. We'll keep doing it for now and,
3:36
and see how it goes. But I mean, where else can you
3:38
get the silky smooth sounds of my voice and your voice and, you
3:42
know, the, the, the faces for radio that we have that we
3:46
decide to put on YouTube anyway. So yeah, it's, it's fun.
3:50
We, we, we'll keep doing it, but we'll see.
3:53
Yeah. Well, I think also one of the
3:55
biggest things that we've done and we're going to continue to
3:57
do is put discount codes out there because I think if you're
4:02
planning on going to a conference, you have an
4:04
opportunity to go to the conference.
4:06
You might as well listen to the podcast at our website.
4:10
I know she moved all the the discount codes right to the the
4:14
homepage, idacpodcast.com. Go right there, all the discount
4:20
codes are there and you can save big money on conference
4:23
attendance. Yeah, it's, it's pretty cool.
4:27
A lot of these conferences partner with us to, you know,
4:29
provide those discounts. So we're always grateful for
4:31
that and pass the pass the love and the and the savings on.
4:34
So, yeah, go to idacpodcast.com. Just Scroll down below the
4:38
listen and watch buttons and you'll see anything that we've
4:39
got currently active. Sometimes we get them sooner
4:42
rather than later. So you want to kind of keep an
4:43
eye out if there's a conference coming up that you are attending
4:47
or looking to attend and you don't see on the list, reach
4:49
out. Maybe we can, you know, use our,
4:51
our, our, our popularity or whatever it is right to see if
4:55
we can get a discount code for that one and kind of show the
4:56
love. But that was Jim.
4:59
I am very impressed because that was a almost a professional
5:02
segue into reading these discount codes.
5:06
You know, well, after episode 337, I kind of it finally
5:11
clicked. Well, let's read for those
5:14
because we got a couple that we want to talk about.
5:15
The first one is the one that really this episode's focused on
5:19
that's in Berlin. It's the European Identity and
5:21
Cloud Conference that is May 6th through 9th in Berlin.
5:24
As I mentioned, if you use the code ID AC25 MKO, that'll save
5:29
you 25%. Definitely want to take
5:31
advantage of that before time runs out on it, and we hope to
5:34
see folks there. We won't spend too much on that
5:37
right now because we want to get to our guest of Warwick here in
5:39
a second. But the other one that we've got
5:40
is Idenaverse. So right after EIC, couple weeks
5:44
later, you and I will be at Ideniverse.
5:46
That's in Las Vegas, June 3rd to the 6th.
5:49
And if you use the code IDV 25-I D, AC2525, percent off of that
5:54
as well. Starting to see a trend here.
5:55
Don't worry about trying to remember these again, they'll be
5:58
on our website. Also put them in the show notes
6:00
for people to check out, whether you're on the YouTube
6:01
description or the podcast player, whatever it may be.
6:04
But looking forward to both of those.
6:06
We have some exciting things planned for both events and as
6:10
we've mentioned, I think now for like the last, I don't know,
6:12
four or five months, this is our first time going to Berlin for
6:16
EIC. So it's been a while since I've
6:19
been a rookie at a conference. So I think this conversation
6:22
that we're going to have today will hopefully help with that.
6:24
Anything else, Jim, you want to mention or should we get right
6:27
to it? I think we get right to it.
6:29
I did want to mention that I'm going to Europe the week before.
6:33
So we're making the most out of this trip, right?
6:36
So I'm going to go to Oslo, Norway and do identity there
6:40
with the local Idenerati. And then I'll be moving on to
6:45
spend the weekend in Copenhagen. I think that's going to be just
6:48
R&R and then to Berlin. So three places.
6:51
I've never been really excited about that.
6:53
That's another thing that rarely happens, right?
6:55
Because we've been crisscrossing this country for so long and we
7:00
do spend most of our time in the country to go somewhere and it's
7:04
going to be all new places. That's going to be pretty fun.
7:07
Yeah, I love to travel, especially places I've never
7:10
been before, so I am definitely looking forward to it.
7:12
But why don't we get to our guest?
7:14
His name is Warwick Ashford. He's a senior analyst at Cooper
7:17
Coal Analysts. Welcome to the show, Warwick.
7:20
Well, thanks for having me, Jim. Jeff.
7:23
Yeah. So thanks for taking the time.
7:24
This is a conversation. It's very timely for us because
7:26
as as we just said, we are newbies and rookies not only for
7:30
EIC, but I think probably for Berlin as well.
7:33
But before we get too far into like previewing EIC, it's
7:37
tradition around here when the first time you come on our show
7:39
is we like to find a little bit about backgrounds of people.
7:42
And I kind of joked, you know, before we hit records like, hey,
7:45
or is it cybersecurity is identity?
7:48
And usually the question is how did you get into identity?
7:50
I'm not so sure if you think yourself think of yourself as
7:53
identity person. So maybe the question is, how
7:55
did you get into cybersecurity and or identity?
7:58
Is it something that you chose or did it choose you?
8:02
Oh, well, well, that's always the question that, that I think
8:05
is, is very interesting how people end up doing things that
8:07
inevitably kind of choose them. But I'm, I'm only focused on on
8:12
cybersecurity. I spent sort of 20 odd years in
8:14
cybersecurity journalism. But as part of that I was
8:17
attending EIC and that's kind of was my first contact with the,
8:22
as you mentioned, the identity of the world and identity is
8:27
really at the centre of cybersecurity.
8:30
See what I did there and so really, you know, you can't
8:33
really divorce identity from security.
8:37
So that that's why I'm, although I, I, I write mainly and
8:41
research mainly around cybersecurity.
8:45
Identity is always there as a theme and is always there is an
8:48
interest. So, you know, and I do write
8:50
around the topic from time to time that would have been around
8:53
IGA and software as a service management and IGA and also
8:59
managing non human identities. But more recently I've been
9:02
focused on cybersecurity topics apart from EIC, of course, I've
9:06
spent quite a lot of time focused on the identity topics
9:09
and helping to put together the agenda, working as part of the
9:12
agenda team. So although I'm one of the
9:15
analysts at Cooping and Co Analysts, I also work with the
9:20
agenda team as part of the larger events team and as one of
9:24
the inputs on what kind of content we should have and the
9:27
kinds of people we should have at the event.
9:31
So this topic of cybersecurity that you cover is very broad,
9:36
obviously. So it covers a lot of things.
9:37
Is there a specific area of cybersecurity that either is of
9:42
great interest or maybe it's maybe it's more of a cycle or a
9:45
focus? It's like, OK, you know, right
9:47
now this seems to be kind of the area of cybersecurity that
9:49
really is interesting versus maybe a couple years ago with
9:52
something else. I'd love to understand kind of
9:54
how you approach cybersecurity just because it's such a broad
9:57
space. Well, yeah, I mean, it is an
10:00
extremely broad space. It's also a very exciting space.
10:03
I think when I was working as a journalist, I was the envy of my
10:07
colleagues because they always sort of felt that I was the one
10:10
who was getting most hits because I had the more
10:13
interesting topic. People were more interested in
10:15
things that were happening in the cybersecurity space and
10:18
perhaps you know, kind of a software management or something
10:21
a little more pedestrian. But whereas keeping a cull, we
10:26
are trying to cover as many of the really important topics as
10:29
we can. Obviously that's changing as we
10:33
now get coloured more into the world of AI and there's a huge
10:36
focus on things like ITDR. But personally, I most recently
10:42
I've done a report on manage detection and response.
10:45
And so that's kind of very interesting for me and I'm quite
10:48
excited about it just simply because it does involve the
10:51
whole question of identity, but it also looks at the whole way
10:55
we're using AI in security. And I think that in time, more
11:01
and more people will consume security as a service, as a
11:06
managed service of some kind, because really nobody's got time
11:10
to, to, to focus on the rapid changes in the cybersecurity
11:14
world. They're kind of trying to focus
11:16
on their core business, right? They're not security experts.
11:20
So I think that this whole idea of just going to hand it off to
11:23
a third party who have the resources, who have the team of
11:27
tier 123 analysts who are able to, to kind of make sense of
11:31
what the AI is crunching down for them.
11:34
I, I, I think that's a definite trend.
11:36
I mean, you speak to some of the bigger organization that go,
11:38
although we'll never go, it's the managers services and like I
11:41
like to keep everything in, I like to do it all myself.
11:44
But I think the reality is that it's just becoming too big for
11:47
anyone company or any in house team to, to deal with.
11:52
And so I, I'm really expecting to see melt services as being
11:56
kind of a long term trend to be honest.
11:59
So that idea of managed services is something that I I see come
12:02
up quite a bit. It it can be expensive, but I
12:06
guess what is the alternative? Is it, well, you know, hackers,
12:10
if you're going to attack us, please only do it during
12:12
business hours of 9:00 to 5:00 Monday through Friday.
12:14
Thank you very much. That's not how it works.
12:16
So, and I guess for Full disclosure, right, the, the
12:20
company that Jim and I work for are some, right?
12:21
We do some of that work as well. But I do hear this conversation
12:25
come up quite a bit of this idea of 24 by 7 socks and, you know,
12:30
managed responses and things like that.
12:33
I'm always curious to hear from people who are covering the
12:35
space. How do people justify I guess
12:39
the spend to get to that? Because these services typically
12:42
are not cheap, but the alternative it could be could be
12:45
far far worse. I'm just curious what your
12:47
thoughts are on that. Well, I, I think that the trend,
12:53
you know, like the, the, the explanation that you can give is
12:57
that getting the talent and, and you know, having the, the team
13:02
on, on site, that's really expensive and it's difficult.
13:06
I mean, it's really difficult to find the right people at the
13:09
right time. So whereas if you go the managed
13:10
services route, you have access to an experienced team who are
13:16
following all the latest trends, who've got multiple sources of
13:19
impact input, which have got all the the kind of Intel that they
13:23
need without you having to keep them on a, on a monthly payroll.
13:28
They're just there when you need them.
13:30
And so I think that makes that makes huge, huge amount of sense
13:33
really. Hey Warwick, I'd like to shift
13:35
topics to EIC because that's really we we want to get into in
13:39
this episode. What?
13:43
Can we expect? OK, we're newbies.
13:45
I know there are a lot of people who are have been there before
13:49
who are coming again. So maybe you can kind of address
13:52
that question for both types of people.
13:54
So someone who's never been there before, but what's also
13:57
different this year than years past?
14:00
Well, and you know, I, I, I would say that I think EIC is,
14:03
he's pretty awesome. It's aims to be comprehensive
14:07
and also aims to be influential. And a lot of the people there
14:10
are standards writers and are working on the standards bodies
14:15
and are actually working to shape identity.
14:19
And then a lot of it's around collaboration and
14:22
forward-looking as to what's coming down down the track.
14:27
So, so this year, I mean, it's the 18th yeah, IC.
14:30
And, and so as I, I, I, I always say that I sound biased towards
14:36
the IC and saying really that it's, it's a, it's an awesome
14:39
event, but I've been attending it for about 10 years, although
14:44
I've only been working for keeping a call analyst for the
14:46
past five years. And I've only been involved in
14:49
the gender team for the past two years.
14:52
And so I have kind of an, a third party, well outside
14:56
perspective. And when I was attending the
14:58
event as a cybersecurity journalist, I was always
15:01
terribly impressed by the content.
15:03
And I was also terribly impressed by the fact that there
15:06
was a community of, of identity professionals who all kind of
15:12
knew each other, but lots of new relationships were made.
15:15
So I think that's one of the most important things.
15:18
And as we are the agenda team know when, especially when we
15:21
talk to prospective contributors, we say, well, you
15:23
know, we always consider what happens off stage and in the
15:27
corridors and in, you know, over the lunch meetings as important,
15:31
if not more important than what's actually happening on the
15:34
stage. Totally agree.
15:36
Totally agree. Yeah, I mean, that's something
15:39
Jeff and I say all the time is that the big benefit for
15:42
conferences is the hallway conversations, the people you
15:45
meet. It's, you know, just, you know,
15:49
over a beer or in the hallway, over a coffee, just hearing
15:54
people's stories, doing the same things that you're doing, but
15:57
maybe they're a step ahead of you or you sharing that
16:00
information and potentially helping someone else.
16:04
But I'm wondering, so I haven't been to EIC.
16:07
Who is the conference for? Is it for the practitioner?
16:11
Is it mostly for vendors or who gets the most benefit?
16:15
And then I'm going to throw this at you as well.
16:17
Does geography make a difference?
16:19
So if you're outside of Europe, is this a good conference to
16:23
attend and why? Yeah, that's quite a lot.
16:26
And let me start with The Who the attendees.
16:29
I mean, as I said, they're going, we, we have, there are
16:32
standard writers, there are also policymakers, but most of the
16:35
people are identity practitioners or people are
16:39
working. And then you there are also
16:40
identity community celebrities or identity as you, as you call
16:44
them. So that just means that it's a
16:46
it's a really good mix up attendees and that that ordinary
16:50
practitioners get to kind of, you know, either be in the same
16:53
room with and and get potentially get to meet people
16:56
are writing the standards who are setting the policies and
16:58
kind of get to understand, you know, how how that impacts their
17:01
day-to-day to day business. Sorry, I can't remember Thomas,
17:06
the second part of your question was around.
17:08
Oh yeah, it's. Really, it's a European identity
17:10
and cloud conference, so is it only for people in Europe for
17:14
the most part? Absolutely not you know, I, I, I
17:17
think you guys will, will agree that, you know, the identity
17:20
issues that are being faced in the US and North America close
17:25
the same are all around the world.
17:28
So at the European identity conference, we're, we're
17:31
obviously going to focus on things like EI desk and, and
17:35
looking at what, what's been, what's been done within the
17:38
European context, but that sort of informs the thinking
17:41
elsewhere in the world. Anyway.
17:44
I, I don't think that, that's a weird, you know, I think it's a
17:47
good idea that people are working in isolation.
17:49
And I, I think the identity community in general doesn't
17:53
tend to work on isolation. But that said, we do have an
17:58
international component and that has been increasing over the
18:02
past couple of years. And so this year we have people
18:05
from all over North America, South America, Australia, Japan.
18:11
We have quite a large contingent from Japan coming this year
18:15
looking at projects that they're doing in terms of
18:17
interoperability and getting identity standard, international
18:20
identity standards. So I think the global component
18:24
is, is just only increasing. So I would say it's definitely
18:27
not for any people in Europe, in Europe.
18:29
I mean, obviously those who are interested in what is happening
18:33
in Europe and and was who want to learn from what is happening
18:36
in Europe, that's also a good idea too, but by no means just
18:39
for European attendees. Well, that sounds great.
18:44
You know, I think one of the things that I'm really looking
18:48
forward to is I love reading the the reports that Cooper Coal
18:52
Analysts puts out. I see a lot of the analysts are
18:55
speaking at the conference. So that's one of the things that
18:58
I'm really looking forward to is what are those presentations
19:01
going to be like? Are there any main themes for
19:06
the conference this year? Does anything stand out as like
19:09
that's one of the tracks or a theme that the conference has?
19:15
Well, you know, it's, it's sort of we, we, we tried to look at
19:19
building the, the infrastructure, building the
19:23
ecosystem. So that that's kind of not that
19:27
we want to not, not that every presentation speaks to the
19:30
theme, but we've we've really tried to to bring out the the
19:34
whole topic of the necessary necessity of building an
19:38
ecosystem. Because it's all very well
19:39
saying, OK, we've got a paradigm shifting identity and we need to
19:42
take care of things like AI and identity and all these other
19:45
kinds of things. And we need to be go
19:47
decentralized and we need to listen.
19:49
We need to that. But in, if there's no, if
19:50
there's no ecosystem to support this and there are no kind of
19:54
business models being developed behind this, then there's no,
19:58
there's no, there's no colour. No, you're not going to make any
20:00
progress. So we've, we've tried to, we've
20:03
tried to kind of focus, focus on, on, on that.
20:07
But I mean, you know, just to get back to the beginning
20:09
really, you can, you can expect four days of really solid
20:14
content. There are going to be 7
20:17
workshops. There are 5 streams.
20:19
Again, I hesitate to use the word track or.
20:23
Themes, but we've organised it around five topic areas and I'll
20:27
go into it those in more detail maybe a bit later, but there are
20:31
about 200 more than 200 presentations I counted up and
20:35
there are like 37 keynote presentations.
20:39
And these are not just strategic and technical insights.
20:43
So it's not just strategic or just technical, but it's both.
20:47
But as I said earlier, it's about shaping the future of
20:51
identity. And you know, that whole thing
20:53
of engaging with with peers and then sort of meeting people who
20:58
are community leaders. And then of course, there's the
21:00
show floor. There's an opportunity to to
21:03
speak to the sponsors and to see what how the vendors are
21:06
innovating and has to get an idea of where they're going.
21:10
So there's there's kind of all of that.
21:12
And then yeah, if I can go into detail about the streams, So
21:17
we've got five different streams, 1 recalling upgrade
21:20
reality from 1:00 to the better word.
21:23
And that's the one on which we're going to be looking at AI
21:25
and identity. So we're going to be looking at
21:28
all the sort of identity challenges in an AI driven
21:31
world. And then one of the sessions I'm
21:34
particularly looking forward to is one on to a person who would
21:37
credentials. There's been quite a bit of
21:38
interest in that on social media.
21:41
Quite a few people have been contributing on on on the idea
21:44
of personhood and and having credentials that kind of support
21:47
that. So that's a whole consideration
21:50
of the way AI is influencing identity.
21:54
And obviously we have the security track and that was the
21:57
track that I was most closely involved or one of the tracks
22:00
that I was most closely involved in putting together.
22:02
And, and we're obviously looking there at security and identity
22:07
and topics like zero trust identity and identity centric
22:11
security. And then this year we're also
22:14
having a look at securing identity in the post quantum
22:17
era, because of course we're not, we're not only having to do
22:21
it with the with the old, the old sort of deal, but we've got
22:25
coming down on track quantum computing, which may, which may
22:29
change the story quite a bit. Then we have a trends and
22:33
innovation sort of stream. And that's where we're going to
22:38
be looking at non human identity, which I think is a
22:40
very interesting topic. And maybe we can get on to that
22:42
in a little bit more depth later.
22:44
Then as I said, identity ecosystems, which is kind of
22:48
really supporting the main theme of this year's conference,
22:52
modern authorization approaches off Z, as you guys would
22:57
probably say, like I just kind of get used to saying Z instead
23:01
of Z and we got password lists and.
23:06
You can take the boy out of London, but you can't take
23:08
London out of the boy. You know, as one of my former
23:14
colleagues, US colleagues used to say, never, never have two
23:17
nations being more divided by a common language.
23:23
And then I won this year also, we've put a lot of influence on
23:27
inclusivity in identity. And yeah, maybe later I can talk
23:32
about some of the privilege, you know, kind of the keynotes that
23:34
we've got around that. And then the next stream that we
23:37
can look at is inside the enterprise.
23:39
So this is basically this is kind of true core IAM topics.
23:43
So just anything to do with IAMIGA compliance and CIAM or
23:49
CMI, don't know which you you guys prefer.
23:52
And then we also go to looking at modernizing a legacy IAM
23:57
because I think this is a challenge that a lot of
23:59
organizations have got is that they've invested heavily in IAM
24:03
systems and now suddenly the world is changing and
24:06
everything's based on digital services.
24:08
It's services based and, and they're not to mention the AI
24:12
thing again. So they, they're having to, to
24:14
kind of take what they have and kind of modernise that, that
24:18
legacy IAM and make it relevant today.
24:21
And then one of the most important tracks I think is
24:25
beyond the enterprise. Now this is where we're looking
24:29
I am, but in in the world we want to cut written large.
24:33
And so this is where we're looking at all the EIDS latest
24:36
EI DS2 issues. Obviously that is important for
24:40
Europe. And as I said earlier, I think
24:42
this is something that the rest of the world can can learn from.
24:45
I think what what they're doing in or what we're doing in Europe
24:49
can really inform what the rest of the world is doing and we can
24:53
sort of help inform the conversations about how to make
24:57
these things work together. And then, you know, that again
24:59
speaks to the theme of ecosystems interoperable and
25:02
standards that are interoperable.
25:05
And so decentralized identity is going to be a big topic in that
25:09
thing in that stream. And then of course, there is
25:12
the, the identity wallets and we're also looking at travel
25:16
credentials, which I find and really fascinating.
25:19
Area 1 of the speakers that we have there is of course, Annette
25:22
Stienbagen and she's brought together a really interesting
25:27
group of people from the travel industry.
25:29
They're going to be talking about travel credentials and
25:32
then the kind of issues that they've got there and sort of
25:35
progress, progress that they've been making.
25:37
And then global standards for digital identity.
25:40
I think, you know, ultimately we all kind of transact with each
25:44
other and, and, and it is global and we're seeing increasing
25:49
globalization of all kinds. So, you know, the, the, the
25:53
digital identity's got to kind of catch up the bat.
25:57
You had a little bit of something for everyone, it
26:00
sounds like. I mean, it's a real smorgasbord
26:02
of identity topics. I love that and it's going to
26:06
bring a lot of different perspectives together and I
26:10
think it's this idea of ecosystems that kind of brings
26:13
it together. Do you want to talk a little bit
26:15
more about what the identity ecosystems are or how people
26:19
should think about that? Just that's like the overarching
26:22
theme of the conference. Well, Mark, when keeping our
26:26
principal hell has touched on this on his keynote, but our
26:29
last year is the idea of that the back end systems are going
26:33
to be developed to be able to consume decentralised identity.
26:38
So I think the consensus is that, you know, decentralised
26:42
identity is called the way we're going to go.
26:44
I mean, we, we used to speak about self, self sovereign
26:47
identity, but we've kind of standardised on the, on the team
26:51
or on the term of decentralised identity because I think it's
26:55
more encompassing and it's kind of less emotive perhaps in self
26:59
sovereign identity. And so we've got to make sure
27:04
that, that, that organizations are, are able to consume these
27:08
because I think a lot of organizations that are also
27:10
testing the waters of decentralized identity are doing
27:13
it. But in an in house, in house
27:16
version, the closed loop version to get the real value out of it.
27:22
It's, it's got to be, you know, cross organization and, and also
27:26
international. So we need to start looking at
27:28
ways of, you know, how are we going to make sure that that
27:30
organisations can consume these. And then that speaks to, to
27:34
standards and, and all that kind of thing.
27:36
And then obviously the other component to that I just
27:38
mentioned briefly earlier is the whole idea of business models.
27:42
You know, how, how are things like identity wallets going to
27:45
work? You know, who, who's going, how
27:48
the, how the transaction's going to happen and, and what is the
27:53
kind of the business model behind behind that.
27:55
So this is kind of the the thing we mean by all the things that
28:02
have got to work together, the ecosystems, economic ecosystem
28:06
and the standards ecosystem and, and that sort of thing.
28:10
So yeah. This idea of decentralized
28:12
identity I find very interesting because you mentioned this
28:15
example of people testing it right internally on some of
28:18
their own thing. I mean, to me that sounds like
28:21
I'm just standing up at yet another identity store.
28:24
Isn't sort of the the idea of decentralized identity to have
28:27
these be credentials or other parts of an identity that are
28:31
not centrally stored? Yeah.
28:34
Well, decentralized, right? But if if I control it as an
28:38
organization, I don't really consider that decentralized.
28:41
I think I'm thinking more like education or finance or
28:44
government or civic or whatever you want to call it, that
28:46
perspective. But I just worry about, OK,
28:49
well, we stood up our own blockchain and, and you know, it
28:53
just, it feels like it's a little bit self defeating.
28:55
If, if, if that's the way that people are looking at it, which
28:58
I don't, I don't think is the way to approach it, right.
29:01
No, well, you know, you're right, you're right.
29:03
And I think you know, when I say when they, they're using it in
29:06
houses across organisations. So these are kind of
29:08
multinational organisations. So it's, it's a single company,
29:12
but it's across several version regions in the world.
29:15
So they've got, you know, they just, so it, it's a way of just
29:18
testing it out and trying to see how it would work because until
29:21
you've got the, the interoperability and it's a bit
29:22
like electric, electric vehicles, right?
29:25
I, I recently bought a new car and I'm like, do I go electric?
29:29
You know, so I ended up kind of doing the safe thing.
29:32
I went hybrid. So I feel like I've, I've kind
29:34
of put my toe in the 21st century, but I haven't kind
29:38
entirely committed myself. Johnny electric vehicle.
29:41
I'm kind of getting the, the, the, the, the, the benefits of a
29:44
lower tax and, and, and, and, and better economy.
29:48
But I, I sort of, I don't feel like the ecosystem is there yet.
29:52
I don't feel that the infrastructure is there yet.
29:54
So it's kind of just a way of getting into something and, and
29:58
getting your people at processes to think in terms of
30:00
decentralized identity without committing to it in a way that
30:04
it kind of, it's just not practical to work.
30:06
So that just. Does that make sense?
30:08
I love that. That is the most brilliant way
30:10
that I think of anybody has explained to me.
30:12
And I love the EV analogy. I'm an EV guy, so that totally
30:15
makes sense. Yes, the infrastructure needs to
30:17
be in place for things like that.
30:18
And it's no different from any standpoint, especially for
30:20
decentralized. If we're going to start hooking
30:22
things up, we we do have to to, to build sort of that
30:25
infrastructure. But bravo, man, that was that
30:28
was a well done example that definitely you hit your target
30:33
audience right here with the EV thing.
30:35
I'm glad, I'm glad. And then, yeah, we're also going
30:38
to be doing a couple of workshops and I think there's
30:40
there's one that you may be interested in.
30:44
I think Jim, it was you were saying you were interested in
30:45
the identity fabrics. We're going to cubing a collar
30:50
is going to be presenting a workshop on designing identity
30:53
fabrics. So this is kind of way
30:54
organizations can actually I, I design an identity sort of
30:59
network for themselves so that it kind of works well for them
31:03
and and and them themselves. So it's meant to be kind of
31:06
hands on. So therefore it's a workshop.
31:09
And then we're going to have a presentation from a workshop,
31:12
sorry again, from ID pro on how to find and educate your IAM
31:17
team. So that should, that should be
31:18
pretty good. And then we've also got a
31:21
workshop from Wilkon on building a secure AI stack to protect
31:26
data and IP. And then Swisscom is helping
31:32
with a, a, a workshop on, on establishing trust, because I
31:37
think, you know, trust is another big central topic and
31:41
theme of EIC from past couple of years, because that's really
31:45
what it comes down to is, is establishing trust.
31:48
And I think that's part of the whole ecosystem story too, is
31:50
that in without trust, we can't really make progress with
31:54
decentralized, whatever it is that we're trying to do within
31:56
the identity space. And then Kantara this year are
32:01
doing something a workshop on the certification of digital
32:04
potential services. So this is getting your, your
32:06
digital credential services to recognized as, as, as being kind
32:12
of functional in the world. So yeah, a couple of really good
32:15
workshops there to to attend. And yeah, I would I'd recommend
32:19
the one on obviously designing identity fabrics because we we
32:24
like to think that we were kind of one of the first
32:26
organisations that were talking about this idea of an identity
32:29
fabric that is services based and over the different
32:33
components to that, that work together to sort of weave
32:37
together a fabric. And then it seems to have kind
32:39
of taken on on resonance with the rest of the community
32:43
because I see more and more people seem to be speaking about
32:46
identity fabrics now. So we're doubling down on that.
32:49
And that's why it's quite a big focus.
32:52
I know that Mark Room Keeping is going to be presenting on his
32:54
research into vendors that support identity fabrics or
32:59
provide technologies that and enable organizations to put
33:03
together the identity fabrics. So that'll be one of his
33:06
sessions in a part apart from his keynote session.
33:09
So that also might be worth going on too.
33:12
And as I say, we've got quite a few of organisations, I
33:15
mentioned the Open ID Foundation and Kentora.
33:18
And this year we've also got some involvement from the UNHCR,
33:21
which we can talk about a bit later perhaps.
33:23
And then also the Decentralized Identity Foundation.
33:27
We've got quite a few presentations from the folks at
33:30
DIF, which is is great. And then this year we've also as
33:34
as last year and, and previous years, we've got representation
33:38
from the Digital Identity Advancement Foundation.
33:40
I know you guys are very familiar with them.
33:43
Both Ian Glaser and Alan Foster will be on site.
33:47
And so the kind of fun thing for us too is, is that they brought
33:52
along two of their the DF award winners.
33:55
We've got Grace Klutker, who's a Cameron Award winner and she's
34:01
she's going to be doing a hell discussion, as is Eric
34:05
Dominguez, who is a Victoria Batoche Award winner.
34:09
And so, yeah, so the the Kim Camera Awards, which I'll show
34:13
you, I know you're aware of, aims to foster the professional
34:16
development of identity practitioners.
34:19
And the Victoria Batoche Award focuses on inspiring and
34:24
supporting the next generation of identity experts.
34:27
And so we were very keen to get behind these two awards because
34:30
obviously Kim, Karen and Victoria were, were a well
34:34
coloured key speakers at past EICS and they will long, they
34:42
will long be remembered as being really important parts of the
34:45
community. And Pretoria was always, always
34:49
fun to introduce on stage. I mean, he was just I, he was
34:52
just a fantastic human being, very knowledgeable, obviously in
34:55
the identity space, but it was a lot of fun to have on stage.
34:59
And I always had great answers for things.
35:01
So, you know, we're very pleased to keep behind these awards.
35:05
Yeah, we are always very keen to get behind the awards.
35:08
We're big supporters of DIAF and we usually take the award
35:15
winners to try to get them on the show.
35:16
So for example, episode 312, we had the Kim Cameron Award winner
35:22
Grace Klukey on and interviewed her and I thought it was one of
35:28
the coolest episodes and it wound up being a big hit in
35:31
terms of number of people who listen to it.
35:35
Wanted to ask a little bit about the After hours because that's
35:40
always one of the things that makes a conference real fun.
35:44
But for people who can't be there on site, I noticed on the
35:48
website that there is a virtual ticket option.
35:51
Can you talk a little bit about the virtual Ticket option?
35:55
Yeah. This is kind of one of the the,
35:57
the differentiators, I think for for EIC or one of the things
36:01
that kind of makes it fairly unusual.
36:03
Thanks to you COVID, we've got, we've got a lot, we've got a lot
36:06
to thank COVID for in terms of kind of, you know, just people
36:10
way people work and then think. And so and so thanks to COVID,
36:13
now all the streams are, are all the presentations are, are put
36:18
on on video stream. So this means that people who
36:22
have got a full conference ticket can not they don't have
36:29
to be on site sort of every single minute of the day.
36:32
But the other great thing is that they don't have to make
36:35
that awful conference. You know, I, I know you're also
36:38
familiar with this problem. You go to a conference and you
36:40
look at the agenda and you think, oh, damn, there's this
36:42
person speaking on this topic. And at the very same time
36:45
there's this person speaking on the topic.
36:46
I really want to go to both. I already get our comic of my
36:49
mind. And then you decide to go to one
36:51
and then you all while you think they think, oh damn, maybe I
36:53
should have gone to the other way.
36:55
So it's one of the really great things about the ICS that you
36:58
don't have to make that decision because if you have a a full
37:00
ticket, you have got access to all the sessions after the
37:04
event. So you can, you can decide which
37:07
ones you want to see live and then all the ones that you would
37:10
like to have seen and didn't, weren't able to do just because
37:14
of time and space, you can catch up.
37:16
So I think that's one of the kind of key benefits of, of BIC,
37:22
yeah. I think I'll be in that boat.
37:23
And again, you know, we've got the discount code that we've
37:27
covered in the beginning of the show.
37:29
So if you're interested in the virtual ticket option or you
37:32
can't be there physically, that's an option for you.
37:36
I did want to talk a little bit about kind of the after hours
37:40
opportunity. I hear there's a dinner cruise
37:43
or a river cruise. It's only a rumor to me so far
37:48
because I haven't actually seen anything about this, but I want
37:51
to make sure I get registered in time.
37:54
Yeah. So that that will be via the app
37:56
and that's important thing to make sure that you you have the
37:59
have the app downloaded and let you kind of interact that way.
38:04
There are there are actually this year there are two boats
38:07
because in previous years the demand has been so high.
38:10
So this is a Spray river cruise. It's just kind of cruising down
38:13
the Spray River, which runs through the center of Berlin and
38:16
going cost all the kind of main sites that are along the rhythm.
38:21
But each, each of the two boats has been sponsored, being
38:24
sponsored this year. So you simply have to contact
38:26
the sponsors and just ask for an invitation and actually you'll
38:31
kind of make the cut. It's I think it's on a first
38:34
come, first basis. So you want to make sure that as
38:36
soon as you go on site, you, you make your application for that.
38:40
And then if you don't, if you don't make the first, the first
38:42
cut, then there's always the hope that early evening that
38:45
there are people you don't, you don't take up their, don't take
38:49
up their invitation. And then, yeah, there's kind of
38:53
like a last minute waiting list. But the best, the best course of
38:57
action to get us registered, get registered as soon as you can.
39:01
And, and to make sure that to make sure that you're all that
39:05
you'll be, you'll be on on, on that, on that, on what are the
39:10
creases anyway? That's.
39:12
One of the best things about conferences, I think is like all
39:14
this stuff that takes place outside the hours.
39:15
Those are when you have really good conversations and can kind
39:18
of get fun events. So would definitely encourage
39:20
people to get out there right and enjoy sort of the the, I
39:25
don't know the the events right that that take place.
39:28
So that I love that pro tip of getting the app and getting
39:32
making sure that you're registered.
39:34
So I wasn't sure how to set this up.
39:35
So hopefully I'll see people on a cruise one of those nights.
39:40
I want to do a little bit of a Lightning round with you because
39:42
I know we've got just a couple minutes left here.
39:44
Oh goodness. Because I mean, there's just so
39:45
much more I can talk about because.
39:47
There's, I know there's. I didn't, I didn't talk about
39:49
the happy hours. I didn't talk about the women in
39:51
Identity lunch. I didn't talk about the drinks
39:54
receptions. We just talked about the Spray
39:56
River cruise. I mean, that's kind of fun.
39:58
Yeah. And of course there's the the
40:00
five kilometre morning run, which I'm sure you guys are
40:02
going to be on. I mean, I know I'm not.
40:04
I mean, I'm. Yeah, I'll be passing on that
40:06
one. But there's a little.
40:09
Bit something for everybody like you said, there's there's a wide
40:11
variety of things that people can attend and make themselves
40:16
available for and. Well, we've got the EIC.
40:18
We've also got, we haven't talked about the EIC awards
40:20
either because we are having the EIC awards thing where, where
40:23
people can, can enter into the kind of two categories of, of
40:31
digital, digital ID and enterprise IAM.
40:34
They can enter one by, I think the entries are closed, but
40:37
they, we've received entries for under those two categories.
40:40
And then this is also kind of a fun thing to even we at the
40:43
stage don't know who the winner is going to be.
40:45
And so one of the, the pilot prize is that if you win either
40:50
of these two awards, these EIC awards, you get to present on,
40:55
on Thursday. So this will this will be
40:57
announced on the 1st evening, which is Tuesday evening.
41:01
And once once that's announced, then those, those winners will
41:06
will have a day or so to to put together a presentation.
41:10
And then so it's kind of like a wild card almost entry onto the
41:14
onto the agenda. So let's.
41:16
Wait, hold on a second. You announce a winner on a
41:18
Monday and then they have a couple days.
41:21
Tuesday, on Tuesday, on Tuesday. And they only have a couple days
41:23
so they don't know about this ahead of time.
41:26
Well, the I guess I can't. Think of anything more
41:29
terrifying than be like, hey, by the way, you're getting a
41:31
presentation in two days to everybody.
41:34
They'll they'll know, they'll, they'll know that they're a
41:36
finalist, right. So, I mean, I, I guess that,
41:39
that, you know, anybody who's a finalist, it's a bit like going
41:42
to the Oscars, really. I mean, you're not going to go
41:44
without his speech, are you? You're not going to go without,
41:48
without sort of an acceptance speech because, you know, who
41:50
knows? It could be your likes.
41:51
So, yeah, you're, you're going to do so like John.
41:56
So that's another thing that the EIC awards and I don't know, we
42:00
clicked through the time really quickly because I also wanted to
42:02
talk about some of the, the, the kind of people who are going to
42:05
be there this year. I mean, I'm really excited about
42:07
the fact that we've got Foolpro Schimmel.
42:09
He's the head of the Global data services at the UNHCR and he's
42:13
going to be talking about rolling out the agency's next
42:16
generation digital ID systems for refugees now, which I think
42:20
is really fascinating and I'm glad that we were able to
42:23
include them. We've also got Paul Toomey, he's
42:26
the Co chair of the global Initiative for digital
42:29
empowerment guide and he's going to be looking at a proposal for
42:32
the next stage of the European digital ecosystem.
42:35
So there you have on the team at home Tom, the theme.
42:39
And once again this year we're going to be joined by Max
42:42
Schrems. So I'm sure everybody knows who
42:44
he is, certainly in, in Europe as the privacy activist who took
42:49
on and wine with Facebook. We've grabbed Dr. Torsten
42:54
Lodersted, who's the lead architect for Germany's EU
42:58
digital identity wallet, and he's from Sprint and he'll be
43:01
joined by Christina Yusuda, who's the identity systems
43:05
architect. And they're going to be talking
43:07
on the power of, of, of digital sovereignty.
43:10
And I just love Sprint. It's the German federal agency
43:13
for disruptive innovation. I mean, isn't that a cool title
43:16
for a a government agency? It's really cool talk that's.
43:20
That's definitely a top tier one for sure.
43:22
And then of course, because we've also got all the usual
43:25
suspects and we've got, we've got Doctor Michael Jones and
43:28
we've got Eve Mahler and Inglazer, as I've already
43:31
mentioned, Katrina Dow. So we've got all the kind of
43:35
favourites. We've even got a, we've even got
43:37
Auk civil servant who he's, he's coming from the, the government
43:41
department specialising in digital identity and, and
43:45
technology policy. And so that's going to be good.
43:48
And Max Imbil, who's one of Germany's top seizos.
43:53
So there's going to be the crossover of security and, and
43:56
IAM because I mean, he's a seizo, but he's going to be
43:58
talking about the future of IAM. So that should be really, he's
44:01
an excellent speaker, so that should be good.
44:04
And Daniel Liesler, he's going to be talking on AI estate
44:09
management. So yeah, plenty of cool people
44:12
to to look out for as well. I mean, that's like a a heavy
44:16
hitter line up. I mean, and I'm glad that you
44:18
mentioned that things are going to be recorded and streamed and
44:21
stuff like that because I definitely fall into that
44:22
category of like, Oh my gosh, there's like 8 different events
44:24
or eight different topics. I want to talk.
44:26
I want to see all the same time. So being able to catch all this
44:30
is going to be a lot of a lot of good airport and flying material
44:35
as we're as we're going through the skies there.
44:37
So I'm really happy about that. I'm perfectly happy we can keep
44:41
going on. Yeah, I see.
44:41
If there's other things that you think that you want to get the
44:43
word out, make sure people are aware of.
44:45
Yeah, I think you also asked about the, you know, tips of the
44:48
first time is, I mean, you know, I just say plan your time ahead
44:51
of the event. So make sure you use the app to
44:54
plan the sessions and book meetings.
44:57
So you the the the app, which I don't think is live just yet,
45:01
will allow you to book with other attendees or request
45:04
request meetings with other attendees.
45:06
So it's it's very much around this corner, whole networking
45:08
idea and and kind of socializing and and then of course, as I
45:13
said, you'll be able to request your your place on on one of the
45:16
two Spray River cruises. So that's that's not to be
45:21
missed them. Well, I think, I think we've
45:23
kind of covered most of the things that that that we that I
45:26
wanted to talk about. I mean just kind of looking at
45:29
what I consider to be the differentiators.
45:31
I mean, although there is that that strong European procreate,
45:36
the strong European focus there is the increasingly it's
45:41
increasingly global. And then I think the thing about
45:45
the IC is it's kind of big without being massive.
45:49
So it's kind of a lot more intimate than than other similar
45:51
conferences. So I think the networking can be
45:54
a little bit less. It's easier to do, you know what
45:57
I mean? You kind of see people on an
45:58
often basis. And also we've allowed long
46:01
morning and afternoon coffee breaks and we've fairly long
46:04
lunch breaks. So, you know, there's plenty of
46:07
time. I mean, I know that it can be
46:08
quite difficult getting from one session to the other, but you
46:11
know, there is no session that needs to be missed.
46:13
We've discussed everything's recorded and, and, you know,
46:16
just to use the lunch and, and not often many or morning and
46:19
afternoon breaks to kind of just meet new people or just to
46:22
connect and, and just use the app as well as kind of to make
46:25
those connections and see who's there and, and kind of just be
46:28
able to start up with the good conversations that you want to
46:32
have. Warbick I've seen at conferences
46:35
before where they have certain sessions to have limited number
46:39
of seats. You have to use the app to
46:41
register for that session or you might miss out.
46:45
Is the same thing going to happen at EIC?
46:47
Do we need to get on the app? Are there certain sessions that
46:52
will fill up? Well, yeah, they, they tend to
46:56
be some, but we've again, the agenda team, we've tried to fit
47:04
the topics to the room capacities, if you know what I
47:06
mean. So we kind of can predict which
47:10
rooms are going to be the most or watch topics are going to be
47:13
the most popular. So we've tried to schedule the
47:16
most popular topics in the biggest rooms.
47:19
I can't guarantee that, you know, everybody will get a seat
47:22
every time, but it's certainly not what you would see like
47:25
yourself. You know, I often used to see at
47:27
RSA where there was like a long line of people outside and you
47:30
weren't really sure whether you were going to get in or not.
47:32
It is on a first come, first serve basis, but you should be
47:35
able to make it. And I mean, if the worst comes
47:37
to the worst, you don't make it, then you can just hop on your
47:40
mobile device and you can, you know, you can watch it straight
47:43
onto your device because it's, it's live streamed.
47:46
And if you know, if you have a, if you have a ticket to be on
47:48
site and you have access to that or you can catch up later.
47:52
So and that isn't an issue. But there is no problem of
47:56
having to pre register for anything at all.
47:58
It's just kind of turn up and I think it's first come, you know,
48:02
it's first come first. So hopefully that'll be relaxed
48:05
if you maybe you'll be stressed about getting into sessions.
48:08
I love the concept of a relaxed environment like that because I
48:11
feel like no matter how many seats you might have in an
48:15
auditorium or whatever the presentation is it, it doesn't
48:19
matter. You're always going to have a
48:20
line of people just standing in the back.
48:23
Half the half the audience can be full, but you might have, you
48:25
know, a, a 1/4 up to 1/4 of the audience literally just standing
48:29
in the back. They don't either don't want to
48:30
sit or want to move up, whatever.
48:32
So I love that idea of having like space rather than being jam
48:35
packed in, which is probably a good problem that I have right,
48:37
is like there is no more room. That can be sometimes
48:42
challenging as well as all right, well, we just can't fit
48:43
everyone in, you know, go on the app and and watch it instead.
48:47
Although as a moderate, I always find it so amusing that that
48:50
people will sooner stand at the back then come and sit in the
48:53
front. I just I'm one.
48:55
Of those people I can't, I can't.
48:56
I don't know what it is. I just I'd rather stand in the
48:58
back then be like front row staring up.
49:01
I don't know, maybe maybe there's a fear that they'll get
49:04
picked on, but I mean, not as far as I know, that doesn't
49:06
happen. And you know, from from years of
49:08
being kind of a journalist, I just head straight to the front
49:11
because then, you know, it's I don't have to worry about the
49:14
sound like in, you know, I feel like I'm there.
49:16
I'm a front row person. I'm afraid.
49:18
So yeah, I kind of just had this.
49:20
I was amused by the one number of people who are standing in
49:24
the back, like, come on, Jeff, move to the front.
49:26
Just maybe. Yeah, It's it's actually the
49:29
best spot to see kids to sit because I need you can you can
49:32
really be part of the you feel like you're really part of the
49:34
conversation and you you can reiterate if necessary.
49:39
All right, work, I'll do it for you.
49:40
I I will typically support people I know and try to get up
49:42
front with just so hey, you know, people are talking.
49:45
OK, let's do a quick lightning round before we wrap things up,
49:48
because I do want to get your thoughts on a few different
49:50
things. We talked a little bit about AI
49:53
already, but just give me kind of a brief lightning answer to
49:57
where do you see AI in cybersecurity And you know,
50:01
bonus points for things that you maybe see in the next couple of
50:04
years on the identity side of things.
50:06
What should people listening to this be on the lookout for?
50:09
Well, I think the, the main thing about AI is, is
50:12
transparency is, is kind of and and is, is the good thing is
50:17
about it is enables visibility. So I think really the the great
50:21
thing about AI is that it's enabling people to kind of do
50:26
things automatically quickly that they haven't been able to
50:28
do before. So, you know, things like
50:30
managing permissions conflicts and things like that.
50:35
You know, it's, it's nearly impossible for human beings
50:38
across large organisations to kind of figure out if there's a
50:41
commissions clash or a conflict or if there's a separation of
50:46
duties issue or things like that and insecurity kind of to pack
50:50
recognition. And we know that AI is really
50:52
good at this. So while there are, there is,
50:55
I've got a whole bunch of concerns about how AI is going
50:59
to work against the defenders on the work against business there.
51:03
There is also an arsenal of tools that are being developed
51:06
that can enable us to do the basic stuff really well,
51:09
accurately and fast. And that that's called hopefully
51:13
going to free up people to kind of just focus on the really
51:15
strategic and really important things.
51:16
So I'm, I'm really optimistic and I heard Jeremy Fleming,
51:21
who's former head of GCHQ here in, in the UK, speaking earlier
51:26
this week. And he, he, he said that on
51:29
balance, he thinks that AI is just going to be on the side of
51:33
the defender. And yeah, I, I kind of remind
51:37
that I, I agree with that. I like to think that that's
51:40
true. What's the difference between
51:42
digital identity and identity and access management?
51:45
This is a question we've asked multiple times to many people
51:48
around the world and have never heard the same answer twice.
51:52
So I'm curious to see what your what your interpretation of
51:55
Here's what digital identity is and then here's what identity
51:58
and access management is. Well, I, I think the, the clue
52:02
is, is kind of just the in the works there is, is kind of
52:06
digital identities, your identity in this kind of digital
52:10
world that we now live in because everything has an
52:13
identity. So that's why this year at EIC
52:16
we're focusing on non woman identity because this is well,
52:20
everything that transacts has an identity.
52:22
So we got to deal with human and non human identities.
52:25
And then digital identity and access management is kind of
52:29
video is managing those identities.
52:32
So make sure that the the these identities are are have the
52:36
correct governance around them and that they have the correct
52:39
policies around them. So I kind of see them as being
52:42
very closely related. But you know, digital identity
52:45
is, is kind of general concept. This is about about being able
52:49
to kind of identify people and things in the context of a
52:53
digital transaction and, and the and the management parties just
52:58
managing those identities to make sure that they kind of
53:01
fastened down and that there is there is correct governance and
53:04
policy around them. So I don't know, maybe I've
53:06
misunderstood the question, but for me that's kind of the way
53:09
that falls out in my head. So I don't think it's a right or
53:12
a wrong answer. I think it's the context
53:13
matters. But the way you described is
53:15
tends to be how I for the most part will think about it.
53:18
I see Jim came off mute. He must have something to say.
53:22
No, I just, I mean, I think it's, I don't want to make it
53:27
sound negative, but I think there's like overthinking that
53:30
can happen. I think the industry has decided
53:33
to start calling it digital identity.
53:35
It's probably a more inclusive term for more things that we now
53:39
lump into identity. But I think it's just like the
53:43
new way we're talking about it. I don't really think it's a new
53:46
space. There's probably some additional
53:49
things that are like decentralized identity.
53:51
We never thought of that as part of identity and access
53:54
management. So I think you can look at it
53:58
and try to analyze it and say here's what the difference is in
54:00
my mind, but I kind of feel like it's just a new name for the
54:05
same thing and maybe some more things added to it.
54:10
Well, I think, you know, you're right, but it's sort of really
54:13
just the management part of is part of the whole kind of
54:15
concept. So it's sort of the one as a
54:18
subset of the other. I mean, very much like this idea
54:21
of of machine identities and non human identities.
54:24
I tend to prefer the non human identities because to me that's
54:27
a more global term. It covers all identities,
54:30
including machine identities rather, you know, so sort of the
54:33
whole thing that that all all non human identity will machine
54:38
identities are non human identities, but not all long
54:40
human identities are machine identities.
54:42
So it's kind of just the ones that kind of subset of the other
54:45
room. Yeah, I just feel like people
54:47
use the terms interchangeably and you wouldn't look at
54:50
somebody strangely if they used one out of context for the
54:53
other, right, Or they swapped them in and out.
54:55
So I, I, you know, I, I'm the kind of person who will over
55:01
analyse something and this is where I've gotten to.
55:03
It's just like, you know, people keep using the terms back and
55:06
forth and there's several other terms in our industry that, you
55:12
know, it depends on who you're talking to.
55:13
The my classic one is the the word roles, like the word roles
55:18
means different things to different people stuck to an
55:20
application developer or an IGA administrator.
55:24
They have totally different ideas of what the term role
55:28
means. And I know this is a little bit
55:32
different, but and then you add you've got IM, you've got
55:37
digital identity and then you have identity security.
55:40
So identity security is the new one for everybody's talking
55:43
about identity security. Well, I also think it's a little
55:46
bit of a land grab because I always said identity is at the
55:50
center, but now it's like, OK, well, we're talking about ITDR,
55:56
for example. And I almost like when I talk to
56:00
clients about ITDR, the same people who do traditional
56:06
identity and access management, while they're providing the
56:08
identity to that service, a lot of that service has to do with
56:12
infrastructure security tools that they would not control
56:16
within an enterprise unless it's a very small enterprise, right?
56:19
You start getting into the folks who provide infrastructure
56:26
security, operation center, things like that, and you know,
56:29
identity influences it. But so now identity is becoming
56:34
bigger and bigger, and it's almost like at some point there
56:37
will not be information security, there will only be
56:40
identity. Wow, you're getting ready.
56:46
Sorry. Wow.
56:47
I was thinking like we went almost full circle.
56:49
We started the conversation sort of on the MDR tip and then we
56:52
went back to ITDR and say, OK, well, ITDR is I guess maybe a
56:56
component of MDR as well. It's certainly influencing
57:00
things now from a security standpoint.
57:02
And I guess, you know, war, which kind of close off
57:03
conversation you started as cybersecurity.
57:07
How much influence has identity put on cybersecurity is because
57:12
I feel like the last, I don't know, maybe five, maybe 10 for
57:16
being generous years, we've seen a lot more focus on identity
57:21
being part of the security strategy and sort of thought
57:23
process. Not that it wasn't there before,
57:25
but it feels like almost like digital identity, and I am
57:28
whatever word we want to use is having sort of this moment in
57:31
the sun where people are starting to become, Oh, yeah, we
57:34
definitely need to think about how we're protecting our
57:36
identities because that is core to our business or whatever it
57:40
may be. Yeah, I can only agree with you.
57:43
I think you're absolutely spot on there because you know, for
57:47
years we were talking about the same in cybersecurity.
57:50
We're saying like, you know, you should have a kind of a risk
57:52
based approach and now suddenly that's kind of becoming more
57:56
common. And, and so I think all these
57:58
ideas that have been kind of on the periphery for years on our
58:01
coming center stage. And and so, yeah, I think you're
58:04
100% correct. So when it.
58:07
Comes on to the podcast that says identity at the center.
58:11
That's stupid. Where'd you come up with that
58:13
name? The domain name was available,
58:15
Jim. That's why.
58:16
That's right. I, I get it.
58:19
I mean, I, I, I love it because as I said to you at the
58:21
beginning, you know, really to me here in many ways, identity
58:25
is at the center. So that that makes perfectly
58:27
sense to me. So last question for your work,
58:32
I, I mentioned that, you know, we're, we're having kind of this
58:35
moment in the sun, right? Our spotlight's on identity
58:37
right now. When do you think that spotlight
58:40
starts to diminish? Are we in a cycle of hey, it's
58:44
hot right now and then it's going to be there'll be
58:47
something else, right, AI or, or something else will come up?
58:49
Winter's coming. Winter's coming for for
58:52
identity, but you know, are are we in a cycle where it will come
58:56
back? It gets I guess at some point in
58:58
the future, like where do you see us in sort of that that that
59:01
process? I'd, I'd like to say that I, I
59:06
think it's going to just, it's going to maintain momentum for
59:09
at least a while yet. But you're right, everything in,
59:13
in everything is cyclic. You know, I, I like have this,
59:17
this whenever one asks me about cybersecurity, I always say,
59:19
well, you know, there's is kind of it's a biblical quiet where
59:23
there's nothing new under the sun.
59:24
You know, everything that's been will be again.
59:27
And we'll, you know, everything that we've seen, we'll see it
59:29
again. And so, you know, everything is
59:32
sick, like, and I mean the, the Elizabethan's knew this and you
59:36
know, any, any Shakespearean student will tell you this,
59:38
like, you know, everything is, it has a cycle and everything
59:41
waxes and wanes. But surely in the digital era, I
59:46
think identity is going to always be a really important
59:50
topic. And especially, you know, even
59:53
if with the AII know, there's a lot more attention on that.
59:56
But AI and identity are, is, is really fascinating.
1:00:00
So we're a whole track of that EIC as well.
1:00:03
So anyone interested in how that kind of relationship is working
1:00:07
out, I'm sure you, you go to those streams.
1:00:09
We've got some really interesting blocks there and
1:00:11
some interesting folks. Well, Warrick, thank you so much
1:00:14
for spending an hour with us. I know it's a lot going on and
1:00:18
you're sort of in the crunch time, right, of getting things
1:00:20
up to speed and getting things ready to go for this.
1:00:22
I am hopeful that I'll be able to see you at the conference and
1:00:25
give you the official identity of the center fist bump of
1:00:27
gratitude for, for sharing your knowledge with us.
1:00:31
We'll have our links in our show notes for people to check out.
1:00:34
So we'll typically put our guests LinkedIn.
1:00:36
So if people want to reach out to you on LinkedIn, they can do
1:00:38
that as well as our discount codes and things like that.
1:00:40
So thank you so much for being part of this and we hope to have
1:00:44
you back on. I said I'm looking forward to
1:00:46
meeting you at EIC in Berlin in just a couple of months from
1:00:49
now. So we'll go with and wrap it up
1:00:52
for this week. You can visit us on the web,
1:00:54
IDC, podcast.com, Scroll down on that main page and you'll see
1:00:57
all of our current discount codes.
1:00:59
Let's see what else? The YouTube channel
1:01:00
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