Latest / Journey to the Fringe / Opus Dei or Nay

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Opus Dei or Nay · Journey to the Fringe

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  From the unexplained to the mundane, come join
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  us on a journey to the fringe. Hello and welcome
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  to Journey to the Fringe, the only podcast where
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  we are all about just eating pretzels and learning
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  about fringe stuff. Now, we are your hosts, Taylor
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  and Chelsea. I'm here today. We're doing a Chelsea
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  episode, so I get to eat the pretzels today.
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  Honestly, I'm a little taken aback that they're
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  not Cheezys. We know what Cheezys sound like,
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  though. That's the problem. We really do. I can't
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  remember what episode it is, but we know. We
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  don't know, but we know about the Cheezys. Okay,
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  well, I guess this is where I start talking.
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  Taylor keeps chewing his pretzels. I'm busy.
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  I have a fun episode today for you, Taylor, and
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  everyone else that's listening, I guess, that
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  I don't think you're going to be expecting. Can
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  I take a guess? Yeah. Is it Friar Bernardi? No,
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  that's a good idea for an episode. I want to
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  know more about Friar Bernardi. I wonder what's
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  happened to him. I am afraid because I haven't
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  heard about him for a while. You don't think
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  the AI got him, do you? I sure hope not. With
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  the things coming out on AI right now, I'm a
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  little worried. I need to, didn't we come to
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  a realization we were saying his name wrong?
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  Benanti. Yes, we did. But we only said it in
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  text, so. I had other stuff written down to say,
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  but it's not going to make sense anymore. Opus
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  Dei, Latin for work of God. Is an organization.
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  I know one of their most famous members as of
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  right now, who's in the midst of war. Sorry,
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  what? JD Vance is an Opus Dei. He is? Yeah. I
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  thought you meant personally. No, I don't know
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  personally, but JD Vance is an Opus Dei member.
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  Whatever makes sense. It's an organization within
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  the Catholic Church that focuses on the idea
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  that everyone, not just priests or nuns, can
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  become a saint through their everyday life and
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  work. You may be familiar with Opus Dei as of
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  recent of... Oh no, I didn't write this down.
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  That movie with Tom Hanks. Oh, it's the Da Vinci
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  Code. Da Vinci Code, yes. Or they're kind of,
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  like, they're kind of radicals. Like, they self
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  -flatulate, don't they? Self -flatulate. I'm
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  not familiar with that term. They whip themselves.
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  They what? They whip themselves. Yes, they do.
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  Whip themselves. Yeah. Isn't that what it's called?
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  I don't think so. I would think that that would
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  be, flatulating would be something else. No,
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  that is definitely just making yourself fart.
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  Okay. It's something really close to it, okay?
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  I did enjoy that. Self -flagellation. Self -flagellation.
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  I'll never get over this. But I have to. I have
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  an episode to do. Think of the history of Opus
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  Dei like a startup that grew into a massive global
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  corporation within the church, the Catholic Church,
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  that is. It's a mix of a visionary leader, a
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  brutal war, and a lot of high -level politics.
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  I'm about to break down Opus Dei for you because
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  this episode eventually is going to lead into
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  another episode that you're going to need all
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  this information for. It all starts... With a
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  26 -year -old Spanish priest named Jose Maria
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  Escriva. October 2nd, 1928, while on a spiritual
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  retreat, Escriva claimed he saw Opus Dei. He
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  described it as a divine message. Wait, wait.
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  Okay, sorry. I thought we were supposed to know
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  who Opus Dei was or what Opus Dei was at this
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  point. But okay, you're going to tell us. Well,
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  Opus Dei, like, he saw Opus Dei as the corporate,
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  like, not the corporation, but the, like, entity.
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  It's not like a person. Okay. It started with
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  just a few students and young professionals in
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  Madrid. In 1930, he realized women should be
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  included too, creating a separate branch for
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  them. That's not really including them, is it?
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  No, it's not. And that segregation is still a
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  part of Opus Dei today. We'll touch a little
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  bit on it as well. Okay. So during the Spanish
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  Civil War between 1936 and 1939, this is where
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  the fringe and political theories usually start
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  surrounding Opus Dei. During the war, the church
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  was persecuted. Escriva had to go into hiding
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  and eventually escaped across the Pyrenees Mountains.
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  There's also a Franco... which was the dictator
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  of Spain during that time. Yeah, fairly big piece
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  of shit. Yep. If we're just gonna, yeah. After
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  the war, Opus Dei grew rapidly under the dictatorship
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  of Francisco Franco. Yeah, that makes sense.
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  Dictatorship's kind of like they're cults that
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  they can kind of control. Yeah, and it's the
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  power as well. Several Opus Dei members became
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  high -ranking ministers who helped fix Spain's
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  economy. Critics say they were too close to a
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  dictator. Opus Dei says those members were just
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  acting as individual citizens. Of course. So,
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  after World War II, Escriva moved the headquarters
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  to Rome to be closer to the Pope. So, it kind
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  of gets its start in Spain. Huge in Spain. Wait,
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  how much closer are they going to move it to?
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  To Rome? Like, yeah. Yeah, just wait. I guess
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  they're just moving it to Rome. Okay, okay. Sorry,
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  I just keep, I keep being like one step ahead.
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  I guess I should just wait. Stop doing that.
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  After World War II, Escriva moved the headquarters
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  to Rome to be closer to the Pope. He traveled
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  all over Europe and the Americas to spread the
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  work of Opus Dei. He publishes a book in 1999?
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  No, that can't be right. That would be 60 years
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  after its inception. Well, he'd only be 89. He
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  could do it. It just wouldn't make a lot of sense
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  to do it at that time. I actually have 999 is
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  when it's published. So that's definitely not
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  right. Let me just take a moment. So I always
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  thought it was kind of something, it's definitely
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  not part of the Catholic Church, but is Opus
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  Dei really like one of the first sects to say
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  like you don't have to go to church to be saintly?
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  I don't know that actually. Because I always
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  thought that like... This might just be, like,
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  because we watched Stigmata growing up, where
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  I was kind of, like, under the understanding
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  that that's kind of just, like, the teachings
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  of Jesus is, like, the church is kind of corrupt,
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  so you should be able to be, like, holy on your
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  own. That's so funny, because you said that,
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  and then I was immediately going to reference
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  Stigmata as well. Okay. I'm pretty sure it was
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  the possessed girl in Stigmata. Very influential
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  movie in our childhood. That's where like 90
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  % of my religion understanding comes from. And
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  we took like university level religious classes
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  too. It's from the priest that possessed the
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  girl in Stigmata. Okay, so he publishes the book
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  in 1934, not 999 or 1999, which I tried to correct
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  myself. So he, it's called The Way and it becomes
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  a bestseller and is basically the handbook for
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  members today. It's actually called The Camino,
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  which means The Way. Okay, that's really interesting
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  because like Chinese, like... tao teachings is
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  also called the way oh so i wonder if it was
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  influenced at all by that i also don't know that
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  and that's yeah i didn't i could see like religious
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  teachings being called the way yeah it makes
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  the way you're supposed to do like everybody
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  wants to know the way exactly iskriva died in
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  1975 he was canonized I just have to let you
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  know. Involves no cannons, yes. Made a saint.
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  He was not shot out of a cannon like I think
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  every time that I hear canonized. Which is more
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  often than you would think. By Pope John Paul
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  II in 2002. One of the fastest paths to sainthood
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  in history. Three years after he published his
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  book in 1934. Yeah, he died. Never mind. It's
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  a bad joke. It's a bad joke. Oh, okay. I'm confused.
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  Anyhow, maybe I'll get it when I edit. One of
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  the fastest, fastest sainthood in history, which
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  was quite controversial at the time. Moving on
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  to the golden age of Opus Dei under John Paul
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  II, 1982, Pope John Paul II was a huge fan of
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  Opus Dei's conservative energy. In 1982, he gave
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  them personal prelature status, which made them
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  essentially untouchable by local bishops and
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  gave them a direct line to the Vatican. I guess
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  they do have a problem, actually, with bishops
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  touching people. Yeah, they do. Huge problem.
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  They had a few lawsuits about that. Finally,
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  moving forward from 2022 to the present day,
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  Pope Francis and now Pope Leo VII? It's a high
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  number. I remember that. IX? The IX? I think
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  he's ninth, you're right. I think that's what
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  that Roman numeral is. Five minus one plus five,
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  nine. I've been rolling back some of that special
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  power. They're trying to move Opus Dei away from
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  being a mini hierarchy and back towards its original
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  roots as a group for lay people. The history
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  of Opus Dei is a story of perceived power versus
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  actual mission. Well, not just perceived, I guess,
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  because of the power that was invested in them
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  by the Almighty Catholic Church. On one hand,
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  you have a saint who wanted to help people pray
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  while doing the dishes. On the other, you have
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  a group that rose to power under a Spanish dictator
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  and gained unprecedented legal independence within
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  the Vatican. That already seems pretty evil.
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  The big idea with Opus Dei is the universal call
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  to holiness, to find God in the middle of ordinary
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  things like your job, family, and social life.
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  Members follow a plan of life that includes daily
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  mass, praying the rosary, reading spiritual books,
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  and mental prayer, or quiet conversations with
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  God, I guess is what they also call it. Some
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  members practice corporal mortification, small
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  physical sacrifices to join in the suffering
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  of Christ, as Taylor was talking about with the
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  self -isolation. Sometimes they just toot. This
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  ranges from simple things like giving up a snack
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  to more intense practices like wearing a sillus.
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  Is that how you would say that? I don't know.
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  I don't know. I don't know what that is. A small
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  spike chain around your thigh. Okay. But that's
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  interesting that it's like fully your choice
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  if you want to. Yeah. I guess so. Probably for
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  the... Because it says, like... From what I understand
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  of it, probably when you're towards the top of
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  the hierarchy, it's probably more... So, you're
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  saying J .D. Vance probably doesn't have a Silas,
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  like, under his, like, his suit as a garter belt.
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  Yeah, I mean... Per se. He looks like he might.
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  Yeah. Honestly. And also, I do have to wonder,
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  because you always get this with cults, where
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  it's like, oh no, you don't have to do these
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  things. Kind of like with Shen Yun. What's the
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  name of that group? Where they're like, oh yeah,
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  no, don't worry, you can get medical attention.
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  It's just like, that means you're not in tune
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  with God, because you can't get sick if you're
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  with God. Yeah, exactly. That was the point that
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  I was trying to make. Probably at the higher
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  levels, it's more of a thing they look at as
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  an expectation that you're doing. So speaking
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  of the hierarchy, there are about 95 ,000 members
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  worldwide organized into different levels based
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  on their lifestyle. So we have the supernumeraries.
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  These are married, 70 % of the members, and they
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  live normal family lives, contribute financially
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  and follow the daily prayer plan. This is probably
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  where you're going to see the people who have
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  a choice about the sacrifices that they're making.
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  And you're probably going to see a wide variety
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  there. And of course, you're probably going to
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  have the people that take it more seriously than
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  others. Then you have the numeraries. These are
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  celibate. These are 20 % of the members. And
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  they live in gender segregated, opus gay centers.
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  And they hold regular jobs, but give their full
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  salary to the work. Okay, two things that I'm
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  curious about. So it's gender segregated. So
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  is it now that women can join Opus Dei? Or are
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  they saying like, no, they don't even come into
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  contact with women in this area? I believe that
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  we will get into it. I don't know that they would
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  make it this far up. It's probably something
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  more like help, so to say. Oh, yeah. So like
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  they can't have like female maids cleaning the
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  place. Yes, is what I would assume. Okay, and
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  then second thing in there, which you also probably
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  don't have an answer for, but that's okay. I
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  just want to know for sure. You're saying these
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  guys are celibate. Is it like they can choose
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  at a certain point they're going to be celibate?
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  Or are they like, they have to have been like
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  virgins to join it? For this hierarchy, it just
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  says celibate. So I would assume, I mean, to
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  be at this level, you would have to be. I don't
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  know about... whether or not it says anything
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  beforehand yeah okay yeah i wouldn't know but
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  i'm curious on this one and maybe because they're
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  all about power so i don't know and i don't know
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  enough about opus day i've watched a few things
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  but it never came up like if there was a woman
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  of power that was in opus day i'm sure that she
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  could make it up to this numerary level see I
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  don't think she could, because then she'd have
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  to live in the gender -segregated area, and I
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  don't think they would have female gender -segregated
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  areas, because it doesn't seem that they cater
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  towards women. Well, I mean, they would have
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  them gender -segregated, because, I mean, they're
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  segregated away from other people, right? That
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  would imply that there's other genders, right?
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  That would imply that there's... No, it doesn't
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  imply that there's both. It just implies that
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  one gender does not come into contact with the
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  other. It doesn't... necessarily say that they
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  accommodate both well let's read on and find
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  out what i have in here okay we'll all find out
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  together so then the next level we have is the
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  actually just back on this one they did control
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  as far as giving their full salary a lot of stuff
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  is tracked if you're taking the bus what the
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  money that you're spending stuff on at this level
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  makes sense yeah because you're going to need
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  some money to do things but it's very high everything
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  else needs to go to them yeah Like your party
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  habit or your cocaine habit. Yeah, exactly. You
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  can only have so much cocaine per week. So the
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  next level is the associates, and they're also
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  celibate. Same spiritual commitment as the numeraries,
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  but they live with their families or independently.
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  Interesting they say family, not celibate. I
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  wonder if that means mom in her basement. That's
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  true. And she's... A corpse upstairs in the rocking
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  chair. Perhaps. Next level is the numerary assistants.
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  These are celibate women. Oh, okay, okay. Yep.
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  Dedicated full -time to the domestic care. I
• 15:45
  knew it. Domestic care, cooking, cleaning of
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  Opus Dei centers. Well, yeah, they're celibate
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  men. They aren't great at many things. Interesting.
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  They have to be celibate, the women. Okay, so
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  then we have the priests. the ordained clergy
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  that's about two percent of the members and they
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  provide spiritual guidance and sacraments to
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  the group if you walk into a normal catholic
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  mass you see families from the neighborhood if
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  you walk into an opus day center you're gonna
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  see the men and women are segregated and usually
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  have separate activities the focus is intensely
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  on professional excellence being the best lawyer
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  doctor artist that you can be for god because
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  they don't have a public church building on every
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  corner. They can seem invisible until you're
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  in the know. So the whole gist is they are like
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  a specialized task force within the church. They
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  follow the same commander -in -chief, the Pope.
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  They are Catholic, but they have their own uniform,
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  their own training manual, and they don't report
• 16:49
  to the local precinct or local bishop for most
• 16:52
  things. That's just briefly the setup for what
• 16:56
  I really want to get in this episode, what you
• 16:58
  need to know about Opus Dei. So you may be thinking,
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  where am I going with it? I'm not just preaching
• 17:04
  to you the history of Opus Dei for no reason.
• 17:07
  I'm going to take you partially there with why
• 17:10
  it's controversial, Opus Dei that is. It's a
• 17:14
  slow burn in this episode. Opus Dei is often
• 17:17
  called the most controversial group in the church.
• 17:20
  It's been criticized for secrecy, Critics claim
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  it operates like a secret society with hidden
• 17:26
  agendas and influence and high level politics
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  and business. Which, I mean, the Da Vinci Code
• 17:33
  really helped it with that. With its secrecy?
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  Yeah. Not its own secrecy, but it kind of put
• 17:40
  in all these ideas about Opus Dei as a secret
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  society, like out there into the... Yeah, well,
• 17:47
  and it makes it so easy to make it whatever you
• 17:49
  want and like a secret society in your movie.
• 17:52
  The fact that nobody really knows about it. Yeah.
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  Former members have alleged cult -like recruitment
• 17:58
  tactics, especially targeting young people. I
• 18:02
  was watching a movie, not a movie, like a documentary
• 18:06
  about it. This girl who had joined, she was recruited
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  in a youth group and they would kind of test
• 18:13
  the waters as to whether you were open or curious
• 18:16
  about it. And then they would kind of leap on
• 18:19
  you if you were curious about it. And then they
• 18:21
  would go out into the community. and do all these
• 18:25
  different sewing classes and book clubs just
• 18:30
  to recruit people. Man, why do they have to turn
• 18:32
  everything that could be a community into a cult?
• 18:35
  So creepy. The commons are really gone at this
• 18:38
  point. Nothing but cults out there. Some people
• 18:43
  report that directors monitor members' mail,
• 18:46
  restrict who they can talk to, and demand extreme
• 18:49
  obedience. Because Opus Dei is a personal prelature,
• 18:53
  which is a unique legal structure, its leader
• 18:57
  reports directly to the Pope, essentially bypassing
• 19:00
  local bishops. Question. Yeah. Do we get into
• 19:03
  who the leader is or no? Um, no, I don't think
• 19:07
  so. Okay. I was just curious because you're talking
• 19:10
  about him being like very powerful, but I would
• 19:12
  be curious how often they change hands and if
• 19:15
  it's like appointed by the Pope or they do like
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  a thing like the Pope. when they're appointing
• 19:20
  their leader or if it's just like a succession
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  type thing where it's just like, yeah, last guy
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  picks it. Well, that's a good question because
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  Escriva was the leader of Opus Dei. Well, that's
• 19:31
  what I think, but he's dead. Yeah. Yeah. And
• 19:34
  like, I wonder if he gave it up willingly or
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  if it's like they voted him out at a board of
• 19:37
  directors meeting or something like that. Yeah.
• 19:39
  I don't know who's Fernando. Or if he was even
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  ever the leader, like there's a chance that he
• 19:44
  created it. And then like somebody took it over
• 19:46
  from there pretty quickly because he didn't have
• 19:48
  the right mindset for a cult. Honestly, this
• 19:51
  is what you know to get into what I'm going to
• 19:54
  get into because I knew the episode that I was
• 19:58
  going to do, but you kind of need to know a little
• 20:00
  bit about Opus Dei to go into it. So it wasn't
• 20:03
  like a full breakdown of Opus Dei. I didn't know.
• 20:07
  It's the Cole's notes. Gotcha. I didn't know.
• 20:09
  Like, this is boring stuff, actually. I needed
• 20:14
  to understand first Opus Dei to go where this
• 20:16
  is going. So there's no like how. Do the elections
• 20:21
  work? I doubt there is an election. I don't know.
• 20:25
  But it's a good question for you all to look
• 20:29
  into. For somebody to email us about. Yeah. Because
• 20:32
  we're always waiting for you guys to do that.
• 20:36
  Because Opus Dei, yeah, prelature, bypassing
• 20:40
  local bishops, this independence combined with
• 20:43
  its focus on influential professionals has cemented
• 20:46
  its reputation in pop culture like the Da Vinci
• 20:49
  Code as a powerful shadow -cloaked entity. So,
• 20:53
  I'm going to do something a little bit different
• 20:56
  in this episode, and I'm going to give you something
• 20:58
  to look forward to next week. Here's what you've
• 21:00
  been waiting for. Things are about to get...
• 21:03
  This is where I wanted to go with this episode
• 21:07
  and why you needed to know about Opus Dei. Opus
• 21:10
  Dei is so private and has such high level connections,
• 21:13
  they have become a magnet for some of the wildest
• 21:17
  and darkest conspiracy theories in modern history.
• 21:21
  Now, where you're thinking this is going to go,
• 21:23
  it's not. This is not about a secret society
• 21:26
  and conspiracy theories. This episode is now
• 21:30
  partially because I'm only going to get into
• 21:33
  a few on this episode and then I'm going to leave
• 21:35
  you hanging until the next episode next week.
• 21:38
  This is about the biggest real -life controversies
• 21:41
  connected to Opus Dei going on in the world.
• 21:44
  To start with, we have the God's banker mystery,
• 21:48
  Banco Ambrosiano. In 1982, an Italian banker
• 21:53
  named Roberto Calvi was found hanging under Blackfriars
• 21:58
  Bridge in London with bricks in his pocket and
• 22:01
  $15 ,000 in cash. Calvi was the head of Banco
• 22:05
  Ambrosiano, which had a huge black hole in its
• 22:09
  finances. It was discovered the Vatican Bank
• 22:12
  was a major shareholder in this bank. Some theorists
• 22:17
  and Calvi's own family claimed Opus Dei was trying
• 22:21
  to buy its way into becoming the Vatican's new
• 22:24
  official bank by bailing out the debt. Rumors
• 22:26
  swirled that Calvi was killed because he knew
• 22:29
  too much about where the money was going. Opus
• 22:32
  Dei has always flatly denied any involvement,
• 22:35
  but the murder -suicide debate is still a staple
• 22:39
  of true crime in fringe circles. What? It's always
• 22:42
  awkward when you gotta make comment on a weird
• 22:43
  death. Yeah. So I actually have heard about that
• 22:49
  one before. I have too, yeah. Yeah, that one's
• 22:51
  fairly famous. Oh yeah, huge. Like it's one of
• 22:55
  those ones that you point at for like Vatican
• 22:57
  corruption. Yes. Common. And again, that's the
• 23:00
  coolest notes of that. Just because we're just
• 23:02
  going to briefly touch on some of these connections
• 23:05
  to Opus Dei in this. A more recent conspiracy
• 23:09
  -turned -investigation involves Spain's Banco
• 23:12
  Popular. Yes, another bank. For weird reasons.
• 23:17
  Journalist Gareth Gore, who just released a massive
• 23:21
  book on this just in this last year, 2024 -2025,
• 23:25
  titled Opus, The Cult of Dark Money, Human Trafficking,
• 23:29
  and Right -Wing Conspiracy Inside the Catholic
• 23:32
  Church. argues that Opus Dei didn't just have
• 23:35
  members in the bank, they hijacked it. It's a
• 23:39
  massive investigative expose that treats Opus
• 23:42
  Dei more like a corporate political machine than
• 23:44
  a purely religious organization. Gore details
• 23:47
  how billions of dollars were siphoned from Banco
• 23:51
  Popular to fund Opus Dei's expansion. He describes
• 23:54
  a brazen case of corporate pillaging where men
• 23:58
  sworn to poverty and celibacy manipulated one
• 24:01
  of the world's largest banks to build a global
• 24:03
  real estate and power empire. Oh, I thought you
• 24:06
  were going to say for sex parties. That would
• 24:08
  have made the truest answer. Wow, that would
• 24:11
  just come full circle. Gore tracks the flow of
• 24:14
  money from one of Spain's largest bank collapses
• 24:17
  directly into Opus Dei's coffers? Yeah, bank
• 24:21
  accounts, basically. Oh, okay. I'm glad you knew
• 24:23
  that. He also draws a direct line between the
• 24:27
  Catholic Information Center in D .C., which is
• 24:30
  an Opus Dei hub, and the Architects of Project
• 24:32
  2025. To summarize, the theory is that they use
• 24:37
  the bank as a personal ATM to fund their global
• 24:40
  expansion and build massive of luxurious shrines
• 24:43
  using a web of shell companies to hide the paper
• 24:47
  trail. And that is where I'm going to leave it
• 24:50
  for this week. And we're going to pick back up
• 24:53
  next week and finish off probably just like a
• 24:56
  brief summary of the controversies that are kind
• 25:00
  of surrounding Opus Dei. I got some good ones
• 25:03
  for you. What do you think so far? What do you
• 25:06
  know of Opus Dei? Other than J .D. Vance. It
• 25:09
  actually, weirdly, when you were talking about
• 25:12
  it, it reminded me that, have you ever listened
• 25:14
  to the Majority Report? It's a very prominent
• 25:17
  left -wing news source on YouTube and podcasts.
• 25:20
  I don't know that I have. I've sent you a few
• 25:21
  links before. It's Sam Seder. They had an interview
• 25:25
  about a year ago talking specifically about the
• 25:27
  Opus Dei for about an hour. And did you learn
• 25:29
  anything? I learned a bit. That's where I remember
• 25:32
  that J .D. Vance's Opus Dei. Right. And there's
• 25:34
  more in there, but I think it's going to be like,
• 25:36
  oh yeah, as we get going with it, as opposed
• 25:39
  to me being able to spout facts about it. Okay.
• 25:41
  I was just wondering where you were on it. I
• 25:43
  went into this. I did know. I did know that they
• 25:46
  have a really big Washington, D .C. sect. Like,
• 25:50
  it's actually very weird how much they're involved
• 25:52
  in U .S. politics. Yeah, we are going to talk
• 25:55
  about that. And it's like, when you think Opus
• 26:00
  Dei, think people in power. I really found that
• 26:04
  that one statement that I made in the episode
• 26:07
  that they want to be the best lawyer, architect,
• 26:11
  whatever. And they want to be, they want to.
• 26:14
  either know that person in power or they want
• 26:17
  to be that person in power. I don't think they
• 26:21
  want to be the best. I think they want the power
• 26:24
  of being the best and most connected. Yeah, no,
• 26:27
  that's true. Yeah, it's weirdly like there's
• 26:30
  been a weird movement in the U .S. with Tradcaths,
• 26:32
  traditional Catholic living, which has kind of
• 26:35
  hijacked some of the younger population in the
• 26:38
  U .S. to move to Catholicism and by extension
• 26:41
  to Opus Dei. Interesting. So, yeah, it's finding
• 26:44
  a weird resurgence in the U .S. with younger
• 26:47
  people. I find that weird. I haven't heard about
• 26:50
  that. Young men. And young men, eh? Yeah, just
• 26:54
  they have really cult -like tactics for recruitment.
• 26:57
  And we're going to see some other concerning
• 26:59
  things going on. But yeah, I mean, I went into
• 27:03
  this not knowing a whole lot about Opus Dei.
• 27:06
  I didn't know if it was a cult. I didn't know
• 27:08
  if it was a secret society. It kind of does operate.
• 27:12
  I mean, it's not operating as a secret society,
• 27:15
  I guess. But I could see how it... I can see
• 27:20
  how it's positioned itself that way, kind of.
• 27:24
  It's kind of working behind the scenes, but within
• 27:27
  positions of power. So I was a little bit shocked
• 27:31
  to see that it's not really much of anything,
• 27:34
  kind of. But it's also all -powerful in the right
• 27:37
  hand of Pope Leo, yeah. Yeah, right? I was surprised
• 27:41
  at how little, like, it's not a religion. It's
• 27:44
  like a sect, kind of, of a religion. I don't
• 27:47
  know, that was... kind of confusing to me yeah
• 27:49
  it's not its own cult like it's a cult within
• 27:52
  a cult yeah exactly that's exactly how i would
• 27:55
  describe it but yeah i think i got a good episode
• 27:59
  for you next week so you better come back that
• 28:01
  is yeah i think and i don't think there'll be
• 28:04
  any pretzels mostly because i'm out of pretzels
• 28:06
  at this point so if that entices you back anyhow
• 28:10
  i have been taylor here with chelsea we are journey
• 28:13
  to the fringe thank you all for listening we'll
• 28:15
  see you next week Thank you for listening to
• 28:18
  Journey to the Fringe. If you have liked what
• 28:20
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• 28:24
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• 28:28
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• 28:30
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• 28:42
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• 28:44
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• 28:46
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• 28:53
  For now, I'll see you in the next episode.