Latest / Friday I'm in Bed / It's Friday I'm Over the Manosphere

Transcript

It's Friday I'm Over the Manosphere · Friday I'm in Bed

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Hello, welcome to Friday. I'm in bed.
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Podcasts for midlife women living their best life while in
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bed by 10. This week on Friday, I'm in bed.
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We're starting with Louis Theroux and his deep dive into
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the manosphere. Has it actually helped by
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shining a light on the grifting and the mindset?
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Or will it change absolutely nothing?
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And was it even meant to? Then we're talking about the
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Oscars. Not the films.
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The fashion. Because once again, it's women's
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bodies under the microscope. Too thin, too big to something
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we're asking, can we ever actually win?
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So grab a cuppa and let's get into it.
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Hi Kate, how are you? I I'm going to start by just
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apologizing if I start coughing halfway through.
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I got the post holiday lurgies, which is like just on it's like
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downward spiral at the end where I'm like, Oh no, I'm fine.
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And then I'm like, in the evening, I'm dying.
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So if I do start coughing, I apologize.
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So what have you been up to? So busy.
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Busy as ever. My husband went away for a
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couple of days, so that was nice.
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Just chilling. And then it was Mother's Day and
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I had a really good Mother's Day.
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And I just wanted to share something with you because we've
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talked on podcast about like the emotional labour, emotional
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load, mental load, emotional load, mental load, you know, all
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that stuff that we end up doing. And then currently my mother's
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days have been quite rubbish because I've ended up having
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very high expectations and, or like, or having to organize it
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myself. And my son said to me, or, you
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know, what do you want to do on Mother's Day?
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And I said, I don't know, darling, you know, I'll leave it
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up to you. And he was like, what?
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Like horrified as in, but I don't know what you want, you
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know, And I was like, well, I don't want to plan my own
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Mother's Day, if that's OK. And then I spoke to my husband
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and said, told him about that conversation.
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I said, you know, ha, ha, ha, ha.
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You know, I said I don't want to plan my own Mother's Day.
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And he went, well, that's not very helpful.
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And I went, I stand by it. I don't want to plan my own
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Mother's Day. I think it's time I stopped
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doing that. And they all created a wonderful
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day for me. But it was great.
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It was just funny because I pushed back on, oh, I'd like to
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put out for dinner or I'd like to go here or I'd like you to
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know what I mean. You know, that kind of having to
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make the decision, what kind of great decisions about your own
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treats? Yeah.
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And my husband was like 1 don't really like surprises as like,
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well, I don't like planning my own surprises.
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No. Yeah.
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If you go, if I, if I don't know, there's a surprise.
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Coming, I might like it. I know, and actually I'm just
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being the whole. Point of surprises.
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I know and I'm not the biggest fan of surprises, but if
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everybody puts in the effort to make my day nice, it's going to
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be lovely. Do you know what I mean?
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Unless they literally plan for us to get a little, then it
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would be a bit rubbish. But no, we had a lovely time.
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So you've been, you've got the lurgy.
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Have you been here always? Put the leg in.
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My dogs bought me a little plant for Mother's Day, which if you
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are watching this with video I am now showing.
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Apparently my dogs have now developed the ability to go to
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shops on their own and buy me and buy me presents for Mother's
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Day. So that's very clever of them.
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And they wrote tiny little cards as well, so their handwriting is
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quite good. So that was cute.
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But I was a bit of a fail for my own mother because I thought I'd
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send her a card and some chocolates and then logged back
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in and found them still sitting in my basket.
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So she had that like 3 days late.
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I'm an awful. Daughter, I was on track with
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that. I did do that.
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I've bought Mother's Day cards. You need to buy one for your
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mother. And it was the first year I've
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ever said that as well, which felt a bit miserable of me, if
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you know what I mean. You know, a bit like I went and
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bought my own and I was standing there in front of them all, but
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I chose not to buy, you know, like it's not.
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Yeah, just buying. My own Mother's Day cards.
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Not enough for me so my mother-in-law so oh right, you
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know that whole buying your partners things and I felt me
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because. I don't do that.
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Because I was in front of the cards so I could have bought
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one. I thought no, but I did post it.
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So I did post KISS card OK. We'll let you off then.
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Anyway, we've got lots to talk about.
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We have, we're doing, we're only going to do 2 topics this week
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because we're saving up some special ones because you're away
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next week. So we've got a, we've got a
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record to cover your jaunts now as well.
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So let's get on with it. So the first thing we're going
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to talk about this week is the thing that everyone has been
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talking about. I literally seen people who've
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never mentioned this as a topic before in their lives talking
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about it. Is the Louis Theroux's
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documentary on Netflix Inside the Manosphere?
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It's his first documentary that he's done for Netflix.
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He's been with the BBC for years.
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I've watched quite a few. I'm not going to say all because
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there's probably loads that I've that I've missed that have just
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slipped through the cracks, but I've watched.
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Quite a few of Louis Theroux's. Documentaries and I've always
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quite liked his, his style. And so I, I, I have watched the
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documentary. Have you seen it, Kate?
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Yes, I have. OK, OK, so we're actually both
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talking from a place where we've actually seen things this week.
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Oh, my God. Well, wonders never see.
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Yeah. So inside the manosphere, Louis
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Theroux went and interviewed several influences.
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So his main aim of the documentary was to get inside
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the more extreme fringes of the manosphere.
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So these these people with ones that get banned on a lot of
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platforms, basically the people that are presenting the more
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extreme ideologies out there and and yet still managed to have
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hundreds of thousands, even millions of followers.
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So he interviewed several people.
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I did write their names down in my notes.
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Justin Waller, who I was the guy who has an investment platform
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and fan only fans agency thing while still claiming that he
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hates all women and that that do only fans and thinks they're
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disgusting and that he needs to marry a virgin or whatever.
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But he is married. He has a wife, he has three
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kids, but he had two kids and one on the way.
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I think his wife was the one that talked about they have in
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their own lanes. So she was responsible for the
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household and he was responsible for providing essentially, which
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is an interesting thing that we can we can talk about.
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They also talked about, they also talked to Sneako, who seems
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to have transitioned kind of almost out of the manosphere a
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little bit. It was a big Trump supporter.
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But now he converted to Islam and is now way into his
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conspiracy theories, talking about secret, secret Satanic
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symbols on the cover of magazines with with your eyes
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covered and that Satanists run the world like, yeah, the the
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real, the real conspiracy theory.
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I know somebody that that has been talking about that for
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years in our house. So that'll be the first thing to
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talk about in your house. In my house.
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That's a whole lot of podcast episode that was like, anyway,
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carry on. And the third guy that stood out
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to me was quite interesting was chess Dicky Doggy.
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He had an absent father and a strong mother, which is quite
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interesting. There was some there was.
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Tips in there of him talking to his mom, which were very
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interesting because his mom was a bit like shut up.
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But also I found him very interesting because he said a
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lot of things on camera that didn't seem to really represent
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that much what he was like. You know, when he was talking to
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his mom, he seemed like a very different person.
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He was going all you know, most women aren't like my mom, you
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know, So it seemed like always like he himself was a product of
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this kind of manosphere and had bit.
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And so he to me was one of the most interesting ones because I
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don't know, I felt like there was something in there with him
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that could be safe. He could be a nice there was
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something he seemed like he could have been a nice guy, but
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was then a product of this world.
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So those those were the three main ones I think that they
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spoke about or spoke to everyone's talking about how
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awful it is and how terrible all these attitudes are.
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I feel like we know that, so that almost doesn't need
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mentioning. Oh, I don't know, question that
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one. In my notes, I'm questioning
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that everyone. I've seen quite a lot of chat
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about whether Louis Theroux challenged people enough.
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And this was one that I do want to talk about because like,
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having watched a lot of Louis through documentaries, what he
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does isn't challenge. He always plays that, oh, I
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don't really know what's going on, which he couldn't get away
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with so much in this instance because he was literally being
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live streamed. It was a very, it was very
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postmodern, like he was being live streamed while he was
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fielding a documentary. I mean, I'd love this at
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university. He couldn't get away with it so
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much because there was a lot of comments underneath where people
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go Louis Theroux or watch out for that guy.
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You know, we've seen his stuff before.
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He'll do a hit piece. So he was, he was challenging
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them. But what he tends to do in his
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documentaries is kind of take us as the viewer inside a world
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that we wouldn't get to access otherwise.
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So he's not necessarily targeting people who were like,
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oh, I've never heard of this before the manosphere.
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What's that? He's more targeting people like
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us who are aware of it, but maybe don't really see the more
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extreme fringes or see how these things are actually produced or
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what these guys are actually like when they're not in charge
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of the narrative, which is the thing that I found most
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interesting about this. So I don't necessarily agree
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with the criticisms that he wasn't.
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This is going to be good. So how do?
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You feel about that, Kate? So I have real mixed feelings
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about the thing as a whole. And we'll, we'll dig into lots
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of things. I, I absolutely understand that
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Louis Theroux's style is to almost sort of hold open the
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window and let us in. And he's very clever in the way
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he just asks a question and lets them reveal their own toxicity
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or whatever the the topic. And that is what makes his
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documentary so interesting and clever.
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However, I if you take his documentary on the settlers, for
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example, I don't know if you've seen that one, He does exactly
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that to the Jewish settlers in the West Bank.
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And he holds the mirror, not the mirror as the opening the
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window, you know, but he also spent time talking to the
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victims and the Palestinians. And I feel that his documentary
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is brilliant. I'm not going to take that away.
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It's so good and it's interesting, it's entertaining.
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I have to say as well, it's scary, it's shocking, it's all,
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it's got all the things. But I do understand where people
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are coming from because I kind of feel it the South is that I
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just wish he'd taken a moment to open the mirror.
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Like I keep saying, the mirror mirror's wrong.
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Open the window to the victims. And I think I would have
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preferred it. And then the argument to that
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is, well, that's not what he does.
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But then I would then say, is he the right person to have done
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this then? Or does there need to be another
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thing made because Louis did what Louis does best.
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And as you said, which I hadn't thought about, it's generally at
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people that are already, it's aimed at people that are a bit
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in the know, you know what I mean?
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So for example, this one, it was aimed at you and I who kind of
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know about it. But then that worries me because
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there's so many people that don't know about it and are in
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denial about what their sons are doing or not in denial,
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literally are ignorant to what their sons are doing because
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they don't know. Then how do we capture those
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people? So I whilst I feel like on its
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own it was brilliant, but I think there needs to be
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something else. And I think we've started with
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adolescence on Netflix where it really showed us and now we've
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got the manosphere. I hate that word because it
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makes it sound like it makes it sounds silly and funny.
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And I suppose, but is it is actually a big problem.
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You know, I feel like now there needs to be something that does
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talk about the victims and the victims being young boys and
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young girls. So I think, and I had this
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conversation with somebody on my own feed recently last week when
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she was saying that, you know, all the boys, the boys, we need
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to look after the boys. Yes, we do.
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But it's girls too. And I feel like it missed all of
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that. But that's not what Louis was
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set out to do or was probably paid to do.
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It was fast to do, but I feel like there's something else that
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is now needed Plus. So I'll stop talking in a
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second. No, no, as you said, it was
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aimed to us. So I'm seeing lots of people
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going. I watched it, I kind of knew
12:38
this anyway, but I was shocked at how bad it was.
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And I'm seeing women arms particularly saying I watched it
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with my 16 year old and he was laughing at them because they're
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so stupid, you know, like in brackets.
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My son isn't like that, you know, and it's like, great, my
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son's watched it and thought they were a right bunch of
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knobs, for example. We're not the problem.
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It's the people who are watching it with their sons, you know,
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it's all the other boy. And so I feel like there's
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something else needed, I suppose is where I come to at the end of
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my thought about it. See, I, I think because this is,
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This is why I was like twitching there, because I'm like like
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kind of bubbling through my head about it.
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When we talk about victims, I thought one of the.
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Where do I start? With all the things, one of the
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things, especially with the stupid cough, one of the things
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that I felt was that this documentary did quite well was
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show that actually these producers are as much the
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producers of the content are as much a victim of this as as
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anyone else. Right at the end of the
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documentary, they had like videos of these guys when they
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were like 5 or 6 and when they were like 13 recording stuff for
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the Internet. And it, it makes you kind of
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realize that they've grown up in a culture where they have been
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taught that their value is clicks and likes and followers.
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So it's not really a surprise that they then end up going down
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a rabbit hole that takes them to places where they get lots of
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clicks, even if that's kind of controversial.
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And the fact that some of them were saying things that they HS
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ticky talkie in particular was one that I saw a lot saying, oh,
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well, it's for the clicks in it, It's for the likes.
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And kind of almost seeming upset with himself for the content he
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was producing, but feeling like he had to keep doing it for the,
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for the clicks, for the likes, for the views.
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So I, I, I felt that we had adolescence and that showed us
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the impact that this can have on the kids.
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And we have a lot of chat around violence against women and
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girls. So I do feel like those things
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are covered in other places a lot in our world.
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Well. I don't know.
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See, I feel that. Like I felt like seeing how
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these guys got to where they are to me was was an area that we
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haven't covered. It's like they didn't just
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spring out of nowhere. All these all these manosphere
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producers didn't just like suddenly spring out of nowhere
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once they were 13 year old boys. So how did they get 10 years
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later, 20 years later to where? They are now.
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Yeah. See, I don't think adolescents
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touched enough on girls and women.
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I have to be honest because it was about the boys.
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Oh yeah. And I feel, and I'm not
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disrespecting any of these as, as works of as works, you know,
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because both of them have been thought provoking and built
15:25
around real truth, I feel. I just wish the women and girls
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were mentioned more, I think, and I think it, but although I
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think it was clever how he definitely showed the impact of
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the women in their lives, the girlfriends, the wives, but it's
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not. I think it's because I have a
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son and I have a daughter, and actually I worry more for my
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daughter because of the manosphere than my son.
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And now that's partly because I've managed to get him through
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to 18 and he isn't hasn't gone down a rabbit hole.
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And I obviously recognize that lots of people aren't in that
16:00
situation. In fact, millions of parents
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aren't in that situation. But so I've got him through, but
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now I've got my daughter and I don't have any control over
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what's happening to all the boys in her class and what they're
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seeing and what they're watching and what they're consuming and
16:15
what they're hearing. And it's like, and I see the
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impact on her and I just, I just, that was my only.
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I think that's my negative from it.
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I just wish there'd been something.
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But I have to also say though, in case I forget Louis Theroux
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and his team, I mean that man standing holding that white dog
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with the pink covered in the pink accessories throughout that
16:37
whole conversation had totally forgotten that he had that dog
16:41
in his hand. And I'm not saying like a girly
16:43
dog and a masculine dog, but it was the most girly dog ever.
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And he was holding it and it's his dog.
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Well, it's white dog, their dog. And and then you saw his face
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suddenly almost realized he's holding this dog.
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And it just made you realize in a back to that line, they kept
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that in, you know, like it's just so clever going.
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Back to the actual editing, actually the conversation that
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they were then having while he was holding that dog where they
17:08
got his wife in and she was going, well, you know, maybe not
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like, you know, and she was kind of pulling him up a bit.
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And you kind of really got the impression again from that that
17:18
dynamic between them that what he was saying in public wasn't
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necessarily what he was saying behind closed doors.
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So again, I think that that bit with the dog and his wife then
17:29
just kind of like, yeah, she left him at the end.
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Yeah. But it just started to strip
17:35
away those layers a little bit, like, and show that that maybe,
17:39
you know, that they this wasn't them.
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And I just, I just found it absolutely fascinating how you
17:44
saw so often how they would speak directly to the camera or
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they would start turning Louis into content and like trying to
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turn the tables back on him. And that everything they did was
17:52
that they were controlling this image and that narrative and the
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edit. Even the bit where Chess was
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live streaming just after they'd spoken to his mum, his mom was
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in the room and he was live streaming and he was getting the
18:03
questions to ask, ask him, ask him about the genes and ask him
18:06
about Jimmy Savile and stuff like that.
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But even then you could, you could see him trying to when he
18:14
was looking to the camera and going because I'm honest and I'm
18:16
real and I'm don't, I don't have to edit stuff just to like try
18:19
and get attention and not like these guys.
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I'm the real 1. You could really see that, that
18:23
attempt at manipulating the situation back onto them.
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And I just don't make me think how sad it must be to like, live
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your life, I mean. And we both post content on the
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Internet, but like, I've never been able to be bothered to
18:35
pretend to be someone I'm not. Sounds like so much effort and I
18:38
kind of feel. Sorry for what's interesting
18:41
though is you've picked up on that.
18:42
So you've picked up on that how they were different.
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I picked up on that less actually.
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I was probably focusing on something else, but my worry is
18:52
that these 14 year old kids, if they're watching this
18:55
documentary now, they're not going to see that nuance.
18:58
They're not going to note it. Like they'll see the Ferrari and
19:02
they'll see the big house and they'll see being in my bear and
19:05
they'll and they'll see. Yeah, yeah, I want that.
19:08
I want that. I just worry again.
19:11
I sound like I'm really worried. Oh, actually I'm worried about
19:13
it. I think it's work for you, like
19:16
work for my son and watched it and was like, what?
19:18
This is ridiculous and also scary at the same time.
19:22
But I think there's going to be people that are still don't gift
19:25
it because it's that's the thing with Louis.
19:27
I suppose that's another bit about that's what makes him so
19:30
clever. But it's very nuanced, isn't it?
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Like as in it's intelligent. It's really, you know, the dog
19:37
in holding the dog and in real life, you know, like they
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somebody, a 14 year old boy might not even notice the dog.
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They're just hearing what he's saying.
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But then I think we're putting a lot of pressure on one
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documentary to, like, solve the problem rather than.
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I think that's open that. Window And I think that yeah,
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I'm sure that there is more work to be done around this.
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And if this helps expose some of that a little bit and mean
19:59
people, some people might be more aware of, you know, what
20:02
they're actually dealing with and maybe publicize it a little
20:05
bit so that, you know, it kind of gets out there, then that's
20:07
great. But you know, I don't think we
20:08
can ask this one documentary to do everything.
20:11
And I do wonder, I think people are.
20:14
Well, yeah, they are. They are.
20:16
That doesn't mean it should. No, absolutely.
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But the risk is, is that people go, well, it's been done.
20:23
We've done that exposure done that.
20:25
You know, let's, let's move on to the next thing.
20:27
You know, it's done so well. When was the last time you saw
20:30
something do really well? And then people go, oh, no,
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we're not going to do any more of that.
20:33
Well, adolescence, adolescence, but it's taken a year from
20:37
adolescence to now. We can't wait another year
20:40
before the next thing. I think that's where I just
20:43
wish, I just hope there's just a plan, a follow up.
20:46
Is it being talked about in Parliament, for example?
20:50
Not I'm putting all my trust in the politicians to fix anything,
20:53
but they should be talking about.
20:55
About it, yeah, I mean violence against women and girls,
20:58
violence against women and girls and therefore they, you know, we
21:00
we, we think we've spoken before about the I, the plans to do
21:04
classes for the boys in school and are we risking like
21:06
demonizing the boys? It's it's such a complex issue.
21:08
I don't think an hour long documentary is gonna like, gonna
21:11
like fix it all. But I as a as a documentary, I,
21:15
I did find it very interesting. Yeah, obviously, obviously
21:18
upsetting, but yeah, I again, I just feel like we could.
21:21
We can't expect you to do anything.
21:22
And I do wonder how much ended up on the cutting room floor
21:25
because again, I imagine they had hours and hours and hours of
21:29
footage. And this is just they had to cut
21:30
it down to an hour. So when you're talking about the
21:33
stuff with the women, you know, there were were bits with the
21:35
women. They interviewed some of the
21:36
women from is it Justin Waller's only fans?
21:40
Yeah. Thing that he that he runs, that
21:41
he works with and takes a cut. And they interviewed some of
21:43
them and they were saying, does it bother you if you think that
21:46
he thinks you're disgusting? And she was like, well, not
21:48
really. Yeah, but they women that
21:50
weren't. Bothered, allegedly, like, yeah,
21:53
this was. And then there was, there was a
21:56
podcast, they did a podcast recording where they had women
21:59
in and started shouting. A couple of them walked out.
22:01
I wish that they'd followed up and then interviewed the women
22:04
that walked out. But maybe they did and it just
22:07
didn't make the final cut. So we, we don't, I think we
22:10
don't know exactly what did and didn't make the cut for this to
22:15
because obviously it's then edited and crafted to make the
22:18
point that they want to make. So maybe they decided that the
22:20
point that they wanted to make was to expose those
22:23
contradictions and that they're idiots rather than focus on the
22:27
harm, which is something that has been covered elsewhere in
22:31
things like adolescence. And I literally can't think of
22:34
any programs now, but there's, you know.
22:37
I don't think I can think of any another.
22:39
I have to say I think there's a lot of work still to be done.
22:42
It's it dafted that conversation.
22:45
I just hope the conversation carries on.
22:47
The other thing that that really stood out to me, we've talked
22:51
about this before about we talked about Australian banning
22:54
social media for under 16. I, I say I don't think it's the
22:57
right thing to do. And obviously it's been debated
22:59
recently for the UK and it hasn't gone through, but
23:01
obviously there's a lot of people fighting for it to go
23:03
through. One of my main concerns for for
23:07
social media ban is that what would bandit job done.
23:11
Let's move on to the next thing. And what this shows is that you
23:15
can access these people through Spotify, through Apple Music or,
23:19
you know, through any podcasting app.
23:22
And they're using Telegram to communicate and to get money
23:25
from people, which is a, which is a, oh, it's got my head back
23:31
forward. Yeah.
23:33
Yeah. And that wasn't on the list.
23:34
So it's kind of, again, that highlighted that social media is
23:38
a toxic place, don't get me wrong.
23:40
But if you just remove it, those men will not lose their voice.
23:45
They will. Find there were several there,
23:46
there were several on there that had been banned from multiple
23:49
social media apps over the years and yet their content was still
23:52
being seen. So yeah, I think that I think
23:54
that's a very good point. And I think we do need to accept
23:56
now that like banning kids from social media is starting to
23:59
become a bit like banning them from public places.
24:02
Like it's just not possible. Well, that and when encompasses
24:07
so much more than a couple of platforms, there's just, yeah,
24:11
there's just too much and then they're obviously monetizing it.
24:14
I think that's just the other thing I think was really good
24:17
that it was highlighted that they are it's a business that
24:20
diet was like I am a salesman. Literally they are what we call
24:23
grusters, you know, like making money from vulnerable people.
24:28
And again, I think people forget that bit or don't realize that
24:31
bit. Obviously people talk about the
24:33
effect it's happened it's having on young people, violence
24:37
against women, girls, you know, the loneliness epidemic boy, all
24:41
that you talk about. But actually these guys are
24:43
getting rich off the back of it. And I think that was eye
24:48
opening. I mean, I obviously realized
24:50
they were, but it was very blatant.
24:52
And it's kind of like you're still at home, but, you know,
24:55
still feeling bad about yourself.
24:57
And you know, but I'm look at him in his Ferrari.
25:00
I care about you. And in several.
25:03
Instances it was worth noting that they were profiting off the
25:06
work of women still as well, despite their absolute disgust.
25:09
I know. And the irony is that guy,
25:11
whichever one it was, I can't even bother to say their names.
25:14
Dragging Bonnie Blue for doing what she does and she just does
25:18
it for clicks and clout. And it was like, what are you
25:21
doing? Yeah, that was, yeah.
25:24
It would be interesting for them to then take all the stuff from
25:28
the cutting room floor and do one that focused more on the
25:30
women that that had popped up because they do pop up, which
25:33
suggests to me that there is more content out there that
25:37
didn't show up. And it was interesting.
25:39
Quite a few of them had absent fathers.
25:42
I think it was whatever is an HS who had.
25:44
An HS particularly. They talked about that and I
25:48
thought what came to my mind was one of the abuse that women get
25:52
online if they reject them or if they are feminist or whatever
25:56
that is, that they've got daddy issues.
25:58
It's a line that is thrown at women all the time in a in a
26:02
really flippant way. So it was really interesting to
26:05
realize that these people, anyway, I'm not going to say
26:08
they had daddy issues, but they had absent fathers and they, you
26:11
know, and trauma from that. So it's interesting to say they
26:14
had daddy. OK, now, Daddy, but the thing.
26:18
You won't say OK, I'll say it. They had daddy issues.
26:21
I don't. I just don't like that phrase
26:23
because no, I don't when the dad, not the person, if you know
26:29
what I mean, the dad that the left or whatever.
26:32
Again, it was, you know, interesting that the thing they
26:35
throw at us, these guys anyway had themselves.
26:39
But I have to say, I can't end this segment without mentioning
26:42
the final singing when he's like, I don't want to juice
26:45
mummy and he says she says, what's that on the floor?
26:48
And he starts cleaning it up. And I'm not I've no dis
26:51
disrespect to anyone that loves their mom or anyone that does
26:54
the cleaning because you. Absolutely should, but it was
26:57
the you know, again, it's that clever editing was just like, to
27:02
me, that interaction was the exact kind of interaction I
27:05
could see me having with my mom. Like like it was that was the
27:09
most normal bit of the whole thing because he wasn't
27:14
controlling presenting a persona.
27:16
This is why that guy, particularly Hsi was like, I
27:18
felt I feel like somewhere in there there's hope for him.
27:21
I really want to hope that in like 10 years time there's a
27:23
documentary on how on how HS. Transitioned away from that and
27:26
is now like a massive advocate for girls and women.
27:29
But we need to move away from that's the strip in my Bay or
27:33
wherever he was. Because again, although I looked
27:35
at that and I was just like, it's just like lads abroad.
27:38
It was like that when I was 1617, you know, And then you
27:41
think, you know, there's partly it's like, well, it was like
27:44
that then, you know, it's just, that's just normal in those
27:46
places. And then I was like, oh, but
27:48
then haven't we moved forward with hope, you know, And I
27:51
definitely don't want my daughter going to more, but here
27:53
for the week. Yeah, I think this is it's a
27:56
massive conversation and there's obviously much more to be said
27:58
on it, but if you haven't seen the documentary, I would
28:02
recommend giving it a watch for sure.
28:04
And watch it with your teenagers.
28:06
Yeah, if you have them, if you've got them, don't, just
28:08
don't just grab some random ones off the street and make them
28:10
watch with you. That would be weird.
28:21
The other thing that has happened in the last few days is
28:25
the Oscars. So on Saturday night it was the
28:27
Academy Awards and I, I love it. I don't stay up for it because
28:32
it's on way too late, but I'm always very interested at the
28:36
kind of cultural moments that come out of it.
28:38
Any means that come out of it, what people are wearing.
28:41
I do like fashion, so I do like to see what they're wearing.
28:44
One of the things that stuck with me this year, and it's not
28:48
even this year, it's every year, but it's stuck.
28:50
I haven't had a podcast every year, so I haven't had the
28:52
vehicle to talk about it. So this year I'm going to talk
28:56
about it. And that is how on Monday after
29:00
Oscars, the Oscars, the KAMI award, my entire feed is full of
29:04
people dissecting what women look like, but not in a oh, I
29:08
like that dress, that's pretty. I like that color concept
29:11
because of course, that's how we look at fashion.
29:13
It's about their bodies and who wore it best.
29:16
And that woman was too thin and that woman was too fat.
29:20
And just this kind of ongoing narrative about the women who
29:25
turn up at the Oscars versus the men who turn up at the Oscars.
29:29
Now, it's easy to say the men that turn up at the Oscars just
29:32
wear black suits. But actually, men's fashion has
29:35
evolved. And there were men with sheer
29:37
tops and there were men with flamboyant brooches and they
29:40
were made. Well, you go down to the Brit
29:41
Awards a week ago, there was no, I was not say the return.
29:46
That's not the arrival of wearing ballet pumps as men,
29:49
Harry Styles, for example. But again, they're not, it's not
29:54
discussed in the same way. So I just would like to just
29:57
have a conversation as well as a conversation about the Osters,
30:00
about this. You know how the women turn up
30:04
on probably the most exciting day of the year for them if
30:08
they've been nominated versus the scariest day of the year
30:11
because they're going to be analyzed and pulled apart?
30:16
In an industry where you've always historically been told
30:19
your worth is in how you look, you know, it must be an absolute
30:23
nightmare for them. And I've seen headlines like
30:26
Anne Hathaway totally unrecognizable with her new
30:30
face. And I looked at the picture and
30:32
I thought, she's totally recognizable.
30:34
Do you know what I mean? And it's only going half away.
30:38
She wore Givenchy, this black embroidered beautiful dress and
30:41
Rose Byrne. I think it was Rose Byrne turned
30:44
up in a similar dress, but by a different designer, not the same
30:47
dress. And how embarrassing?
30:49
Probably not embarrassing. You know, they probably went,
30:52
oh, you look great, but probably said congratulations on being
30:56
nominated for best actress. You know, good luck is probably
31:01
what they said. You know, it's this women pitted
31:03
against each other. Obviously there's been Demi
31:06
Moore, for example, and Nicole Kidman, who are visibly thinner
31:11
than they were last year. So lots and lots of debate
31:15
around then without actually knowing anything about their
31:19
health. Lots of conversation about Heidi
31:24
Klum being too big without anybody discussing the fact that
31:28
she's already been online or in the press talking about
31:31
menopause weight gain and her journey with menopause.
31:34
So it's kind of like all this stuff and it's been driven.
31:37
It's been driving in now. So I thought I'd talk about it
31:39
this week, OK? They kind of torn on this
31:42
because for my whole life I've loved her best and worst
31:45
dressed. I don't know, it feels like it
31:48
feels like it. It feels like it's part of the I
31:52
know what you mean, but the the fashion is part part of the fun
31:56
of these events, I think. And they all know, they all know
32:01
that That's part of what's I mean, obviously they don't want
32:03
to be on a worst dressed list. They want to be on a best
32:04
dressed list. Maybe.
32:05
I mean, I don't know when when Bjork turned up dressed in a
32:08
swan, do you think she thought she was going to make it onto
32:10
the list or do you think she was going to get a picture taken?
32:15
So I feel like it's part of the fun of it sometimes some of
32:19
these things and just going and, and there's also a bit of
32:22
escapism in it as well, because you and you and I aren't going
32:26
to the Oscar. I mean, never say never, but we
32:28
ain't going to the Oscars, certainly not next year, I
32:31
should wager, unless something very radical changes in our
32:34
lives, we're not going. So it's it's there's a little
32:37
bit of escapism in watching these people wearing gowns that
32:42
cost more than your house and diamonds that cost more than
32:45
your house and then going, well, I think she could probably have
32:50
done better, like, you know what I mean?
32:51
So there's a bit of escapism in that, I think.
32:55
I love fashion. I share the fashion, but it's
32:59
when they I know they look too flat or they look too thin or
33:03
they look, oh, that I was, I was.
33:05
Getting there, Kate. I was getting there.
33:07
Just checking so that that. I think is part of the fun, but.
33:11
See. See, there's a but good.
33:16
There's two things. One of them is that there's a
33:19
massive asymmetry and how we focus on the men and the women
33:22
there. You do get they do get
33:24
mentioned. Pedro Pascal quite often shows
33:26
up on a best dressed list. I imagine equally shows up on
33:29
some worst dressed lists from people who are a bit like don't
33:31
like men to be fashion forward. But they certainly don't get the
33:35
amount of critique that women, the women get when they go to
33:38
these events. So yes, that is fair enough.
33:40
And maybe one day we can eventually have men who are a
33:43
little bit more peacocky and we can get some more.
33:45
We can pick on them too. But yes, women's bodies come in
33:49
under criticism is a different issue entirely than whether I
33:54
like their multi £1,000,000 diamonds or not.
33:58
We are seeing more and more of that in kind of like GLP worlds
34:02
where we're criticizing them for losing weight.
34:04
We're criticizing them for not losing weight.
34:06
I think I actually sent you the thing with Heidi Klum in it
34:09
because I hated her dress. I did not like Heidi Klum's
34:13
dress at all. But people were saying she was
34:15
fat and I she's by anything's not fat anyway.
34:20
And even if she was really, that's not that.
34:23
Why are we discussing her body? It's none of your business.
34:26
You can discuss the fashion and whether you like the dress she
34:28
wore or not, but kind of criticizing her and saying oh
34:31
God she looks hideous, she looks so fat in that dress is a
34:33
different issue entirely and something that women very
34:37
specifically are quite often. Subject to So it was it was the
34:41
yellow it was the yellow dress, wasn't it with the flowers that
34:43
went around her neck that she. It's worth saying that women.
34:47
You said a subject to it. But women are quite often the
34:50
worst people for saying it. Oh yeah, absolutely.
34:54
You know, I work. Yeah.
34:55
So to highly calm it is it was is one example.
34:59
As I said, I shared a post about her, I think last week or week
35:02
before and because she has been talking about gaining weight in
35:06
menopause and right now she's not planning on doing anything
35:09
about it apart from staying healthy and happy.
35:13
And I made a post about that because actually we've become,
35:16
as we say, nation. I don't even think it's a
35:18
nation. You know, it's almost like
35:19
that's not acceptable now either.
35:21
You know you have to, you have to lose weight, but then when
35:24
you lose all the weight, you're then told off the having help or
35:28
going on a diet or trying to lose the weight or the vanity of
35:31
losing the weight. But then it's like you just
35:33
can't win. And I know that some of the
35:35
examples I've given, so for example, Demi and Nicole are
35:40
very slender right now. I think that's slightly
35:43
different conversation. However, we don't know.
35:46
I didn't know that Heidi Klum was menopausal to put on some
35:49
weight. You know, I didn't know that was
35:50
I could. You know, I can see because I do
35:52
have eyes. So I'm not about to say I can't
35:55
see it because I can see it. But I didn't know the reason
35:58
why. And the reason why has nothing
36:00
to do with me. You know, it's just and I do
36:04
worry I'm seeing so much about the women at the thinner end and
36:10
I worry that we are presume they've taken AGLP one, but we
36:16
don't know they have. We are presuming like we're
36:20
blaming them for doing it, but we don't know the facts and it
36:23
worries me because we've got to a place now where how would how
36:28
do on and put this obviously don't want it.
36:30
I don't want to promote being unhealthy at any at any end of
36:36
the spectrum, but we are so quick to make judgment on women,
36:41
particularly when we don't know what's happening.
36:44
An example is the late Catherine O'Hara, who from Ships Creek who
36:51
love, love, love, love, love. But the last time she was seen
36:53
in awards, she was painfully thin and and there was
36:57
commentary about that, but we now know she was ill.
37:01
I'm not saying that these women are.
37:03
I have no idea. But the point is, is I have no
37:06
idea. And that's the point.
37:07
So we need to be careful. I just think personally.
37:11
Yeah, I, I, I, I, I do get, I get exact.
37:15
I get exactly what you're saying here is that that we under all
37:19
circumstances, we always think that this chat about women's
37:22
bodies particularly just yeah, shut, shut it down like
37:26
fashions. One thing you can discuss
37:28
fashion. You can discuss whether you like
37:30
a dress or something. And a lot of the chat I've seen
37:32
has talked a lot about how the use of GOP ones by celebrities
37:36
for this kind of for vanity, I guess, to be smaller, not a lot
37:40
smaller for not for. They weren't overweight.
37:43
Stop, if you know what I mean, Using the drugs for reasons they
37:45
weren't intended for, yes, has kind of shifted the bar a little
37:50
bit. So what we're seeing is normal
37:53
now when we are criticizing women's bodies, we are calling
37:57
people fat who may have been in the perfectly fine range before.
38:02
So that bar is shifting lower and lower and lower.
38:04
So the criticism is getting levelled at more and more and
38:06
more women, and women are therefore feeling under more and
38:08
more and more pressure to look thinner and thinner and thinner
38:12
at these events. And then they can't win,
38:14
basically. And then people then make memes
38:18
and the content literally dragging them and they don't
38:22
know anything about them or the reasons behind it or anything.
38:26
They don't know them. I think, you know, that's just
38:29
what I think. That's the bit I've kind of come
38:31
away with this week. We are not talking about a
38:35
beautiful gal on anymore, and I'm sure we did the same last
38:39
year and year before, but it feels more extreme each time and
38:42
made, you know, you could argue that's because people look more
38:45
extreme each time, but we I don't know.
38:47
I mean, even Jesse Buckley back to fashion, I've seen so many
38:51
things like actually, this is something I see a lot and it
38:54
makes me really annoyed. I think these are like, you
38:56
know, the people that come round your house and tell you that
38:58
you're an autumn or a winter, you know, like, like.
39:01
Colour. Yeah, yeah, yeah, to.
39:03
See people, I don't know what their official name is and
39:06
obviously that's the thing, there's nothing wrong with that
39:08
as a thing. But I'm seeing loads of content
39:11
of Jessie Buckley who looks stunning.
39:14
And won Best Actress. Won best actress and it is
39:16
amazing. Actress and singer and she's
39:19
funny and like and yeah, she's amazing.
39:22
But they're taking the visual because obviously this is about
39:25
fashion and they're saying she should have worn those colours
39:28
and she shouldn't have her hair that like that and she shouldn't
39:30
wear that makeup because she's an autumn or whatever she's
39:33
supposed to be. And then they make AAI and make
39:36
changes their entire outfit and their hair and they go, that's
39:39
better. That's what she should have
39:41
worn. I mean to write like, wow, just
39:45
leave the woman alone, she's just one day.
39:48
But awesome, beautiful and is beautiful and is clever and
39:51
talented. Like anyway that annoys me.
39:56
Her acceptance speech I thought was nice as well.
39:58
She dedicated her award to a lineage of women who continue to
40:03
create against all odds, which I thought was very kind of
40:07
bittersweet considering Waves hands all of this.
40:10
The state of the world at the moment, yes.
40:13
And what we're talking about that kind of criticism.
40:15
So I thought that was that was lovely as well.
40:17
But yeah, again, it's taking that focus off her achievements.
40:20
And all she is is then reduced to her appearance.
40:23
And watch what she wore on that day when we should also.
40:26
I mean, fine, don't like her dress, whatever.
40:29
But, you know, it's worth acknowledging, you know, she won
40:31
best actress. Must be quite exciting for her.
40:34
I know. There was, so there were.
40:36
There were another couple of kind of bits that about the
40:39
Oscars that I did want to mention out more positive, some
40:43
of the more positive. So Autumn Darold Acapor won best
40:48
cinematography for Sinners and she's the first woman to ever
40:51
win best cinematography. So that was another achievement
40:53
for women at the Oscars. I don't know what she was
40:56
wearing. I'll probably check someone
40:57
didn't like it somewhere, I imagine.
40:59
And Chloe, Chloe Diao was once again the only woman nominated
41:02
for best director. I think there's only been once
41:04
in history when more than one woman has been.
41:06
But she her outfit for the Oscars, the black one, that was
41:10
her Oscars outfit. She so this is one of my pet
41:13
topics because she has been turned into a meme.
41:17
She was wearing and again, I think this was her Oscars
41:19
outfit. I've said it, I would need I
41:20
need to go off and double check this now.
41:22
Black and a black. Veil.
41:24
Oh yeah, yeah, I know. You talking about now?
41:26
I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
41:28
yeah, yeah. But they just found out that the
41:30
Buffy reboots been cancelled by the OR won't be going ahead with
41:33
Hulu. So she's like a meme everywhere
41:36
now that she's in mourning because they've cancelled the
41:38
Buffy reboot. So I'm quite enjoying that.
41:40
Sorry. As like, an epic Buffy fan, I
41:43
was very much looking forward to the reboot being done by women,
41:46
not by Joss Whedon. And kind of yeah.
41:49
So that's a disappointment for me.
41:51
She didn't win best director again.
41:53
A man won it. Like, you know, there was a lot
41:56
of women who were nominated things who couldn't like, beat
41:58
the, you know, it was men that won a lot of things again.
42:01
But I think it's worth remembering that the women
42:03
there, regardless of their frocks exactly, had great
42:07
achievements behind them. Yeah, and and regardless of
42:09
their bodies and it's such a shame and obviously there is
42:14
there are narratives out there about the success.
42:16
I mean Jessie Buckley's speech and the she's the fact that
42:19
she's the first Irish best actor.
42:21
So, you know, that's had a lot of reporting, which is which is
42:24
great. But yeah, it's just would be
42:27
nice that if we focused more on that would be nice.
42:32
Thanks very much. Need to see him that I, I think
42:37
I mentioned it when I'm talking about the future of cinema that
42:39
I want to go but it's only on at funny times.
42:42
But the other thing is, is I think it's a ugly crying film
42:46
you know, you watch. It's like, is that one that you
42:49
want to watch at home? Well, maybe not on movie night
42:52
with the rest of the family as I'm sitting there, this guy like
42:55
bubbling out of my nose. But I do really want to watch
42:59
it. And I haven't seen Sinners
43:00
either. My son went to see at the
43:02
cinema. I said it's amazing.
43:03
So I need to see like I've got a list now of things and then have
43:07
to stream them because they're not on the cinema.
43:09
Well, there you go. And that is the the future of
43:12
cinema. That's why it's struggling and.
43:15
There was a lot. Like the previous.
43:16
Episodes there was talk about lack of British people
43:21
nominated. Somebody made a joke about that.
43:24
The math, yes, they did. And there was a yeah, lack of
43:28
British. So I suppose that's another
43:29
reason why we've because, you know, Ireland is so near to us.
43:33
Obviously, we're very proud of Jessie Buckley.
43:36
We adopt people from different countries when they do something
43:40
good. Tennis players, Scottish.
43:41
What the Hell's his name? Marie.
43:44
Thank you. My brain so funny.
43:47
Yeah. Can I just remind you?
43:51
Anyway, so don't comment on women's bodies.
43:53
But the point is we don't know what's going on.
43:55
And it, you know, we've seen it with Sharon Osbourne, the the
43:59
daughter. What's she called?
44:01
What's Sharon? Kelly, Kelly Osbourne, I think
44:04
both of us, I think. Both of our brains gone, yeah.
44:06
But you know, we're seeing it so much with Kelly Osbourne.
44:09
Menopause. In action.
44:11
So yeah, just don't comment on it.
44:13
And for the record, and Pedro Pascal wore a very nice white
44:18
Chanel, I think, with this big kind of starbursty flower thing.
44:22
He looked amazing. He looked amazing.
44:26
Did you have a favorite dress, Jessie Barclays.
44:28
I loved it. Red and pink.
44:31
Like it made amazing. Yeah.
44:33
Oh, was that? The one with the big he's.
44:34
Made across and then pink. It's just, yeah, stunning,
44:37
stunning, simple. I was quite fond of Demi Moore's
44:41
feathers. There was a lot of feathers.
44:42
Feathers were returned because Nicole Kidman had feathers on
44:45
too. So, but I, because I have a
44:48
wedding blog and things obviously do look at it from a
44:52
bridal perspective. All the awards kind of feeds
44:54
into some trends that you then see in bridal and stuff.
44:58
So there were some, you know, things.
44:59
Emma Stone wore a dress that looked like you or I would have
45:02
worn it in the 90s. It's just a sort of silk bias
45:06
cut, really. Salt.
45:08
But again, you can see that on Brian also.
45:11
So I'm talking about dresses again, I love fashion.
45:13
I just don't like talking about people's bodies, particularly
45:15
when they say they're unrecognizable.
45:18
And it's like, well, no, because I can clearly see who it is.
45:23
Thank you for joining us for another roundup of midlife chat,
45:26
hot takes and occasional moaning.
45:28
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45:34
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45:50
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45:52
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