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Debating Biden's Gaza Problem (with Mehdi Hasan) · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Matty Hassan.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Matty, great to see you guest hosting today. Thank you
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: for joining.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. It's always fun to do this.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: One of my favorite people to talk to and debate,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: although I'm a little anxious because you did write a
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: book about how to win every argument that I believe
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: is coming out in paperback soon. So I'm worried I'm
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: going to get brutalized here in this debate.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: When have you and I ever argued about anything, Tommy?
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: It's funny. People probably think we're too chummy or cozy now,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: but you should look at our conversations about drones in
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: the Obama administration if you want to see it get
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: a little spicier. On today's show, we're going to talk
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: about what the Biden administration's record on Gaza means for
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Biden's support here at home. And in the critical state
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: of Michigan, we will talk about what a smart U.S.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: approach would look like in Gaza and how Ukraine funding
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: complicates things. We'll also talk about what's happening with House
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Republicans' train wreck of impeachment efforts. And in case you
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: missed it, Donald Trump tells Laura Ingraham that he is
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: America's Alexei Navalny. Seems like an apt comparison, right? No
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: problems there?
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's still alive.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: He is still alive. He's still alive. But Mehdi, let's
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: start with Gaza because you have a fantastic piece out
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: in The Guardian today arguing that President Biden could end
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: the war in Gaza right now with a phone call.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: You point to an example of President Reagan in 1982
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: who stopped Israel's bombing of Beirut with a phone call.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Can you give us sort of that brief history of
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: what happened back in 82 and how you think it
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: applies to what's happening in Gaza today?
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, in 1982, Ronald Reagan was president of the
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: United States, very pro-Israeli, just like Joe Biden. The Israelis
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: were led by a very right-wing prime minister, Menachem Begin,
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: a former terrorist, just like today you have Benjamin Netanyahu,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: a very right-wing leader. And Begin and Ariel Sharon, remember him,
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: was his defense minister. And they go into Lebanon. We
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: don't have time to get into why they went into Lebanon,
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: but they're in Lebanon and they're bombing Beirut. They're trying
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: to defeat the PLO who are hiding in tunnels, Tommy.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Sound familiar? And they say, we will not leave till
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: we wipe them out. And in process of trying to
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: wipe them out, they're killing thousands of civilians in Beirut,
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: the capital of Lebanon. And at one point, the nightly
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: news is showing an image of a child with limbs missing. Again,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: sound familiar. Ronald Reagan apparently sees this. He writes later
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: in his memoir, these images shocked me. And he calls
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: Begin and he says, you need to stop this now.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: What we're watching is a holocaust. Reagan used the H word, Tommy.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: And Begin says, I know what a holocaust is. Don't
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: try and lecture me, Mr. President, along those lines. And yet,
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: 20 minutes later, Begin rings back and says to Reagan,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: it's over. I've told Sharon to stop the bombing. And
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: the reason I opened the piece with that anecdote is
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: because Reagan apparently put down the phone and said to
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: his deputy chief of staff, I didn't realize I had
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: that kind of power. Now, whether he meant it or not,
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: whether it was snark, who knows? But American presidents have
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: a lot of power, Tommy. You know that. I know that.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: You know that from working in the White House. I
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: know that from covering presidents for decades. And the idea
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: that Joe Biden today, and I get it, a lot
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: of listeners of Pod Save America will say Joe Biden
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: is trying. He wants to stop the war. We keep
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: hearing leaks that he wants to ceasefire. He doesn't like Netanyahu.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: He's effing and blinding about Bibi. But what can we do?
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Israel is upset after October the 7th, rightly upset. It
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: wants to take out Hamas. We don't have the leverage.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: And the purpose of my piece was to say, not
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: only do we have leverage in the form of arms
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: and finances and diplomatic protection, but we've always had leverage.
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  Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan could do it. George Bush Senior could do it.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: And Joe Biden can do it too. He can make
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: that call. And one of the things I cite in
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: the piece is Israeli officials have said openly, we can't
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: do this without America. Defense Minister Gallant, early on in
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: the conflict, when he was asked, why are you letting
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: aid in by his own right-wing backbenchers? He said, the
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Americans told us to. What are we supposed to say?
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: No.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: Yitzhak Brick, a very top Israeli general, Tommy said, if
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: they turn off the tap, everyone knows we can't carry
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: on fighting. So the Israeli military officials are saying, We
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: need the Americans. And yet our government is not saying,
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: all right, then do what we tell you to. And
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: that leads you to the very unfortunate conclusion that the
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: Biden administration doesn't want to stop the fighting. It's not
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: that it can't, it's that it won't.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: So I think, look, first of all, I share your
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: enormous frustration with how Gaza is being handled by the
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Biden administration. We can get into some of the policies
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: we think would make things better in a minute. But
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: I think the I think the argument's a little bit overstated.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: I think it's somewhere between, you know, we can't do
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: anything in one phone call. And my argument would be,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: I think Israel today is very different than 1982, just
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: because of, you know, decades of economic growth, frankly, decades
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: of US military assistance that has made them increasingly less
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: reliant on the US. But I think the bigger problem
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: for Biden here would be Bibi Netanyahu, because for those
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: who don't know, Netanyahu is only in power because he
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: cobbled together a coalition of of some of the most odious, right-wing,
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: racist ministers in Israeli politics. And some of those ministers,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: a guy named Itamar Ben-Gavir, could topple his coalition government
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: at any time. And so what Netanyahu is primarily worried
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: about is, you know, if they withdraw support for the
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: coalition and he has to face an election, Netanyahu's party,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: the Likud, would get crushed, according to polls. He'd lose
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: the PM job and he would lose any future hope
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: of using his power as prime minister. to get immunity
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: for the many crimes he has committed and is facing
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: prosecution for. I think you are absolutely right that Biden
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: pressed Netanyahu to stop bombing Gaza back in 2021. It
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: was reported in books that he said, all right, you're
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: out of runway. We got to stop this.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: And they stopped within days and Netanyahu was gone from
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: office within a month.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right. I do think though, the security situation
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: and the politics are changed after October 7th. There was
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: a recent poll by the Israel Democracy Institute I found
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: that about half of Israelis would oppose the deal to
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: end the war in Gaza if it included the establishment
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: of a Palestinian state and peace agreements with other Arab countries.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: Another poll found that 72% of respondents agreed with the
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: statement that, quote, the entry of humanitarian aid into the
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: Gaza Strip must be stopped until the Israeli prisoners are released.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: I say all of that not because I think it
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: should impact what the U.S. does or what you and
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: I think is right or wrong, but just to acknowledge
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: that there's a scenario where Biden.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Trying to tell Netanyahu what to do, and then Netanyahu
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: telling him off ends up being good politics for Bibi.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: And maybe there's a scenario where Bibi goes around Biden
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: to Congress and gets some sort of veto-proof bill passed
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: of assistance. So look, I think there's a lot more
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: that Biden can and should be doing. But I think
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: there are some limits to our leverage.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: So let me say two things. One is on the
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: specific Israel example. I think, as I pointed out in
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: the piece, I point out not just Israeli officials, but
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: people like Bruce Riedel, who worked for four presidents, saying, no, no,
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  Speaker 2: we have lots of leverage and we don't use that leverage.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: Not because it's complicated, not because Netanyahu can go around us,
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: but because of domestic political reasons.
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: That we don't want to use. That's one issue. So,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: you know, that and you mentioned 2021. Biden literally called
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: Netanyahu and said, stop this. And it worked. So at
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: some point, we have to ask the question, how much
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: this is about Biden and not about Netanyahu? Uncomfortable question,
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: I know, for a lot of the listeners. And number two,
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: I would say, just on a general point, not just
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: about Israel, Tommy, and you and I have discussed this before,
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: sometimes there's value just in the fight, right? We have
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: a president right now whose poll numbers aren't so great,
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  Speaker 2: who is getting beaten up on all sides by members
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: of his own party, by members of the media, and by,
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: of course, the Republican Party. And sometimes there is value
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: in the fight. Netanyahu is not a popular figure. If
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: Biden picks a fight with him and Netanyahu tries to
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: go to Congress, tries to go to Speaker Johnson or
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: even Chuck Schumer, I don't think that's bad politically for
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Biden in an election year where actually cozying up to
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: Netanyahu could cost him states like Michigan, could cost him
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: a lot of young voters, people of color, Arab American voters.
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  Speaker 2: So I think there's a moral reason and a strategic
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: reason to put pressure on Israel to end this morally
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: unsustainable and strategically disastrous war. But I also think there's
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: domestic political reasons why picking a fight with Netanyahu is
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: far from a bad thing to do.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm in violent agreement with you there. So some
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: things I'd love to see. I mean, to your point
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: about Biden's approach, to date, they have had this approach
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: that's called the hug BB strategy, where basically Biden says
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: he'll disagree with Netanyahu privately, but they don't want to
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: show any daylight in terms of public messaging. And that
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: included Biden literally jumping on a plane, flying to Israel,
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: giving Netanyahu a hug on the tarmac. It's become this
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: sort of iconic image. I think we need to– I
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: thought that approach was a mistake from the beginning because–
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: not because I think poorly of Joe Biden, because I
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: think incredibly poorly of Bibi Netanyahu. He's a corrupt, racist,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: bad leader who a year ago was trying to shred
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: the Israeli judicial system, right? You had literally millions of
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: protesters on the street every single weekend protesting him.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: He also– Tommy– wants a Trump presidency. They're not hiding
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: this stuff. They say it out loud. A moment ago said,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: if Trump was in office, we'd be able to do
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: whatever we want. And Netanyahu clearly is counting down the
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: days to a Trump presidency. So the idea that Biden
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: is helping a guy who has always undermined democratic presidents.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: You remember Bill Clinton famously emerged for a meeting with
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: Netanyahu and said, who the F is the superpower here?
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: Barack Obama was humiliated by Netanyahu, who turned up and
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: undermined his Iran negotiations in Congress on American soil.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: He failed on that front, but you know.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: But tried to, you know.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: He was a real pain in the ass, that's for sure.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, went to Congress and tried to undermine the US president.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: So this idea that Biden, Obama, Clinton should try and
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: appease a man who has always tried to undermine them
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: in party political terms, it seems to me absurd from
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: a domestic political calculation. I know that Biden has a
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: friendship with Netanyahu going back decades, whatever, right? This is
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: a middle of, we're in the middle of one of
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: the worst geopolitical crises of our lifetimes. We're in the
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: midst of one of the worst, you know, a former
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: UN official told the BBC this week, Tommy, that the
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: kill rate in Gaza, by his calculation, the kill rate,
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: the rate of killings is higher than in any episode
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: of violence or conflicts since Rwanda, right? That is where
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: we are right now, where former UN officials are pointing
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: out what the death toll looks like right now. 30,000 people,
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: which is a conservative estimate, killed in just over four months.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: So in that moment, you know, put aside all the
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: nonsense about whatever friendship you had. Put aside whatever nonsense. Yes,
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: he's a Zionism in his gut, and we can have
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: that debate later about Zionism. But just from a personal standpoint,
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: as president of the United States, what is he doing here?
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: What is he achieving here? What is he getting here?
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: Even if I wasn't pro-Palestinian, forget your politics in the
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: Middle East. I just don't get it from a political,
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: domestic political situation. What is going, it's election year. Do
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: we want this really happening in November? Does he think
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: he can win with this happening in November?
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: No, and look, to your point, I mean, look, the Hamas,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: the Gaza health ministry's estimates are 30,000 people are dead.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: I saw the UN has suggested that it might be
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: as many as 100,000 when you consider people who are
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: missing or unaccounted for or confirmed dead. And so I
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: agree with you. There's a moral imperative here. And I
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: also think there is increasingly a growing domestic strategic imperative
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: to put some space and pressure on the Israeli government. Look,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: I do wonder if early on when this conflict started,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: if Biden could have said, look, we'll work with you,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: we'll back you, but you've got to get rid of,
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: you know, Itamar Ben-Gavir, some of these right-wing ministers. I
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: do think like the U.S. should be conditioning assistance to
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Israel and at a bare minimum so that the IDF
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: has to adhere to international law and limit civilian casualties.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Some people have gone further than that. Bernie Sanders has
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: suggested that we should condition US military assistance to say
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Israel must also make progress towards a Palestinian state. I
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: think the US needs to stop vetoing every call for
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: a ceasefire at the UN. It happened again this week.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: I did see, Mehdi, that Al Jazeera reported that the
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: US has drafted a UN resolution calling for a temporary ceasefire,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: the release of hostages, and It overtly states that we
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: oppose a ground offensive in Rafah. So I think that's
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: a good step. And listen, to folks listening who think
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: this is bias against Israel, I just want to say
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: the reason I support this set of policy guidelines or
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: proposals is because I think it will save innocent Palestinian
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: lives in Gaza. But I also think a negotiated ceasefire
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: is the only way to get the remaining hostages back alive.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: And I think that getting the two parties into a
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: political process that will solve the underlying tensions that fuel
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: this cycle of violence year after year after year. is
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: the only way to get to a durable peace. You
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: cannot kill every member of Hamas. You cannot kill an idea.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: The Israeli military are saying you cannot kill every member
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: of Hamas and you cannot defeat Hamas in this way.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: These members of the Israeli war cabinet are saying this.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: And let's not forget, for listeners in America, families of
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: the hostages are saying, please get our family members out alive,
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: end this conflict, do a deal. And the vast majority
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: of hostages who have been released were released in that
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: very brief period temporary ceasefire that happened, temporary halt of
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: fighting that happened back in, when was it, November. Something
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: like 99% of the hostages have been released in that way.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: How many of the Israelis saved, rescued through military action? Two, three?
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: I think three, yeah.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: How many did they kill? We're now hearing numbers that
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: they may have killed up to 10, 15, 20 in
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: the Israeli press of their own hostages through airstrikes. And
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: we know about the three they shot dead who were
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: carrying white flags. So it's been a disaster even for
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: Israeli innocents, this war. Let's be clear about that.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: And listen, I can't even imagine how hard this is
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: if you are a progressive Israeli who feels like months
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: ago you were on the streets protesting the Netanyahu government.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: And now you're stuck with these guys leading this war
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: effort that is a moral and strategic disaster. I have
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: enormous empathy for people in Israel who feel like October
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: 7th was yesterday. That wound has not come close to healing.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: I have enormous empathy for Jews around the world who
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: are scared as incidents of antisemitism rise up. But I
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: do think that, you know, getting a ceasefire, getting to
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: a negotiated settlement that gets the hostages back is the
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: best way to create a durable peace for everyone involved here.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: One quick thing before we go to break, we have
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: some great stuff planned for members of the Friends of
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: the Pod community here at Crooked. So on Friday, February 23rd,
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: the host of the excellent new Crooked series, Dissonant at
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: the Doorstep, will host an AMA to answer all of
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: your questions about the series today. If you haven't listened
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: to Dissident at the Doorstep, you are missing out. It
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: is on the Pod Save the World feed. You can
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: listen to it right now. It's the incredible story of
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: a blind Chinese human rights activist who escapes house arrest,
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: makes it to the U.S. embassy in China, and ultimately
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: to the United States after President Obama negotiated his release,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: and then a few years later winds up at the
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: January 6th insurrection chanting away. Just an unbelievable story. If
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: you're not a member of the Friends of the Pod community,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: you have time. Go to crooked.com slash friends to join
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: and to learn more. I do want to turn to
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: the domestic politics you mentioned, Betty. One place it's clear
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: is in Michigan. Michigan has a large Arab American and
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Muslim American population. The state's primary is on February 27th.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: There's a bunch of Democrats in Michigan, including Rashida Tlaib
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: and the mayor of Dearborn, who are encouraging Michiganders to
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: vote uncommitted, so not vote for Biden, but to write
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: in uncommitted. We talked with an activist organizer and former
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Cori Bush staffer named Abbas Alawia about the uncommitted movement.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: He was also a part of a meeting that recently
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: happened in Michigan with some senior members of President Biden's
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: national security team. Here's a clip.
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: Part of what this movement is coming out of is
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: people have been calling the representatives. They've been calling the
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: White House. They've been protesting in the streets. They've been
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: shutting down highways and Biden still doesn't seem to be
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: hearing us. So you know what? If you won't hear
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: us when we are calling our representatives or when we
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: are protesting in the streets, maybe you'll hear us when
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: we show you that we've got some votes of people
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: who you can count out.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: So Biden's 2020 margin of victory in Michigan was 154,000 votes.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: According to NPR, Michigan is home to about 200,000 registered
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: voters who are Muslim and 300,000 people who claim ancestry
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: from the Middle East and North Africa. If enough of
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: those voters just stay home in November, they don't have
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: to vote for Trump. They could just stay home. It
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: could have an enormous impact. Mehdi, what do you think
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: of this movement in Michigan? And what are you hearing
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: from Arab American and Muslim American friends about Gaza and
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: what it means for their vote in this upcoming election
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: and what it might take to get them back if
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: they're leaving the Democratic Party because of the policy.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Tommy, I'm so glad you guys have raised this issue
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: today because it's a huge issue. I've been warning about
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: this issue since October 9th, 10th. I can't remember when
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: I started tweeting saying, this is going to be bad
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: from a domestic political perspective. Sometimes people get very upset
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: when they hear this. And a lot of folks online
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: have attacked me for even pointing this out, like shooting
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: the messenger here. I think I came back from Thanksgiving
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: and tweeted, I met a bunch of Muslim family members
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: and friends, not a single one is voting for Biden.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: And these are all ex-Biden voters and people got very upset.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: I know a lot of people in Dearborn, including Abdullah Hamoud,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: the mayor of Dearborn, and not a single one is
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: going to vote for Biden, they say right now. Now,
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: the uncommitted strategy that Abbas, who I also know, laid
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: out there is exactly that. They're not saying we're never
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: going to vote for Biden. They're saying we're trying to
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: put pressure on Biden to come around with the political
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: tool that we have. This is a democracy. And I
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: think That is a legitimate strategy. No one is saying
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: go vote Trump. No one is saying they're all the same.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: They're saying, President Biden, can you hear us? And my
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: worry is he's not hearing them. I mentioned to people
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: at the White House a while ago, what are you
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: doing about Georgia? I spoke to a Democratic Party official
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: just this week who said, well, you know, we're trying
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: our best, but we also believe we can still win
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Michigan without that vote. That's a risky strategy, given how
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: close the votes have been in not just Michigan, by
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: the way, Tommy, big Muslim and Arab American populations. in Georgia,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: in the Atlanta area, very, very narrow margin of victory there. Wisconsin,
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: less so in Pennsylvania. So it's a real issue. And
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: the question then becomes, how do you engage the voters?
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: And my worry is a lot of white liberals who
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: I interact with, a lot of elected Democrats just say,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: but what about Trump? What about the Muslim ban? Yeah,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: that doesn't work, right? And Abdullah Hamoud wrote a wonderful
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: piece for the New York Times this week. I urge
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: everyone to read it. And he says, look, when people
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: come to me as the mayor of Dearborn and say,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: I lost 80 members of my family, which people have
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: come and told him, right? There are people who have
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: lost dozens and dozens of family members in Gaza. You
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: can't say to them, yeah, but Trump would have got
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: 100 dead. That just doesn't work. You cannot insult them
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: and say, well, what about the Muslim ban? They don't
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: care about the Muslim ban if they've lost 80 members
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: of their family. So you need to meet people where
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: they are, understand the pain and grief that they're going through.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: One of the criticisms of Biden is, He's this great empath,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: the comforter in chief. We haven't seen that much empathy
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: for Arab American communities. We didn't even get a mention
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: of the Palestinian death toll when he did his 100-day
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: statement about the war in Gaza. So we need to
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: see a much more empathy, but also on a policy position,
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: understand where these people are coming from and understand why
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: they're doing what they're doing. Don't just dismiss them as, oh,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: this is 2016 lefties again, or this is people who,
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: you know, Turkey's voting for Christmas. They don't know how
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: bad it's going to be with Trump. They know, but
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: people are hurting right now. And that has to be
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: the starting point. A lot of people in Michigan are
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: hurting from direct connection to loved ones who they've lost.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: And therefore, the administration has to work out what are
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: they going to offer. And if they're going to say nothing,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: then take your chances in November. I'm super stressed about Michigan.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I do want to just re-emphasize the point you
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: just made, which is if you see someone talking about
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: this issue on social media, please don't reply to them.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Enjoy the Muslim ban. You cannot scold someone out of
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: caring about the death of of innocent lives, about the
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: family of children. I mean, I think we need to
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: approach this issue and any issue with empathy and try
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: to listen to people. And the reason, you know, Mehdi,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: we mentioned at the top, President Biden sent John Feiner,
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: his deputy national security advisor, Samantha Power, the head of USAID,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: who's a genocide scholar, to Michigan to meet with Abbas
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: and other members of the community in Michigan. John Feiner
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: was very clear that they realized they have made mistakes
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: when it comes to messaging. John said in this meeting,
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: an audio recording of it leaked out to the New
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: York Times and other places. John said, we have left
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: a very damaging impression based on what has been a
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: wholly inadequate public accounting for how much the president, the
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: administration and the country values the lives of Palestinians. He
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: also said there was no excuse for the release of
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: that White House statement you just mentioned around the 100
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: day of the war mark that did not address or
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: acknowledge the loss of Palestinian life. I've noticed in Biden's
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: comments since that meeting that that he has put much
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: more emphasis on the empathy part of it. I do
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: think that there's a lot of work to do still
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: on the policy like we talked about.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: So he spoke at the National Prayer Breakfast and he
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: talked about Palestinians who've lost their homes and lost their
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: lives and the grief that people are going through both
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: here and abroad. That was important. Obviously, the problem is
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: that we are helping contribute to that group. Let's be
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: very clear. We are complicit in Israel's war on Gaza.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: They could not do what they do without American weapons.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: Biden has gone around Congress, I think, twice now to
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: get those weapons sent faster. When Trump did it in Yemen,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Democrats were up in arms. I'm glad to see some
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Democrats trying to be consistent, say let's not do that
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: with Israel. But look, yeah, empathy is at the center
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: of this. If you talk to a lot of Arab
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: Americans and Palestinian Americans, they do feel dehumanized. They do
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: feel like their lives don't count. They do feel like
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: they're not getting the same attention or concern as American
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: citizens or as American citizens of Arab and Palestinian descent.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: And that is a problem. And Joe Biden, as I
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: say in my Guardian piece, this is a guy who
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: lost two children. This is a guy who lost his wife.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: This is a man who's always been famous, rightly so,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: for showing empathy, being able to help ordinary people with
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: their grief. And yet we haven't seen that with the
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Palestinian-American community. I know some of the five Muslims who
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: went to the White House a few months ago to
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: talk to Biden about this, and they said he was
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: very different in private. He was very apologetic for denying
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: the Palestinian death toll. Tommy, remember he did that at
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: the beginning of the conference?
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, early on, yeah.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: He meant to say Hamas, and he said, I don't
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: believe the Palestinians. It's an outrageous thing to say. He's
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: never publicly withdrawn that remark or apologized. Great for John
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Feiner to say it, but let's be honest, I mean,
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: nobody knows who John Feiner is. Has to come from
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: the top. Truman buck stops here, et cetera. It has
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: to be Joe Biden making these amends and trying to
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: reach out to American citizens who are, as I say,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: genuinely hurting because they are witnessing what they believe to
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: be and what I believe to be a genocide in
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: the Middle East that the United States is complicit in.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: I also think it's worth mentioning that this is not
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: just a challenge for Biden within Arab American and Muslim
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: American communities. I think you're increasingly seeing concern with younger voters.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: My friend Peter Hamby has a great piece out today
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: for Puck where he looks at some exclusive polling about
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: voter sentiment about the upcoming election. One very concerning finding
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: is that among black voters and voters between the age
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: of 18 to 29, They are considerably more likely to
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: feel like the outcome of a Trump versus Biden election
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: will have no difference for them personally. They just are
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: like they're completely apathetic. And obviously, you know, for for
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: political addicts like you and me and listeners of the show,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: that makes you want to pull your hair out. It's maddening.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: But I do think it speaks to a broader lack
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: of faith in a political system that provides a headwind
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: for Democrats, because we're the party that believes in government
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: and believes that government can do things to help people.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: And Republicans overtly say things like, no, I want to
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: drown the government in the bathtub. I want to make
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: it that small.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, nihilism helps the Republicans, right? If we can
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: create an atmosphere of nihilism in this country, that helps
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: one party, the party that doesn't believe in improving people's
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: lives and doesn't believe in using the government to do so. So,
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: of course, the Republicans love cynicism. They love nihilism. They
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: love pessimism. They love all of that stuff. They love
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: depressing turnout, as we know. And you're right. It's not
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: just young voters, black voters. The New York Times ran
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: a piece recently from a bunch of black pastors in
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: Georgia who said the lack of a ceasefire is a
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: real problem for us with our congregations. This is a
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: moral issue for us in Georgia. That wasn't Muslims in mosques.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: That was Christians in churches. So it is a problem
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: across the board. And intersectionality is a real thing, even
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: if the right don't like that word. One member of
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Congress told me right at the beginning of this conflict
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: that they had a meeting scheduled with a bunch of
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: young climate change activists in their office. And they said,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: When they rang them, when they called them to say,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: is it still happening? They're like, we don't give an
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: F about climate change right now. We only care about Gaza, right?
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: So a lot of these young activist groups, they are
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: all interconnected. If you care about climate change, you will
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: tend to care about Gaza. You tend to care about
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: police violence. These issues are interconnected. And therefore, you need
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: a kind of offering across the board that engages with
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: young voters. And you've got to do the right thing.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: So my worry is all of these things meld together.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: and just hurt Biden across the board. And the Democrats
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: need to realize this point. A lot of the people
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: I hear complaining about Biden's Gaza policy, they're now saying
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: stuff like, and he's really old, and he falls over.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: Because of course, once you go down the TikTok or
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: Instagram or Twitter rabbit hole of being anti-someone, the algorithm
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: serves you up everything else. So it becomes very easy
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: to lose a voter on one issue, and then they're
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: anti-you on everything. That's very easy in our social media age, sadly.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. What I think I want to talk about,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: speaking of the social media age, Mehdi, so there was
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: a report in Semaphore recently about how a DC-based PR
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: firm with very close ties to the Biden administration has
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: been policing press coverage of the war in Gaza, including
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: going as far as researching tweets that journalists sent back
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: when they were in college, like back in 2008, 2009, 2011.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: You are on the front lines, you know, talking about
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: this stuff every day and have been for a long time,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: the front lines of social media, of Twitter. Can you
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: talk about the pressure that you and other journalists feel
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: both internally at news organizations, but also on social media
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: when it comes to covering the Middle East in particular?
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: And how do you avoid being intimidated while also trying
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: to listen to feedback and genuinely be balanced in your coverage?
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: It's such an important question. And right now, I know
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: and you know that there are many journalists who are
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: very concerned about the pressure that's being applied, about the
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: sensitivities of this conflict. And let's just be very clear.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: We have the Israeli government has a lot of supporters
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: in Congress, has a lot of supporters in the media,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: has a lot of supporters in activist groups on K Street.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: There is a quote-unquote pro-Israel lobby, which does apply pressure
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: on media organizing. If you've worked like I have, both
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: in American media, British media, you've seen the emails from honestreporting.com
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: and Camera and some of these groups your listeners may
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: never have heard of. But I'll tell you what, every
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: newsroom has heard of these groups because they get badgered.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: into why is your headline this and why is your
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: report showing bias? And as you say, why do they
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: tweet this? In this recent case, it's Louisa Lovelock, who
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: is a British journalist at the Washington Post. It's a
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: fantastic Middle East correspondent. It's covered Syria, covered Iraq, covered Gaza,
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: covered a bunch of things. It's so absurd, the dossier
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: they've produced against her. Tommy, one of the things they
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: go after is, she took part in student protests at
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: university in England against tuition fees. And? Right. A, that's
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: a bad thing. B, that means she can't cover Israel's
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: bombing of Gaza. It's so absurd, the stuff that they
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: pull out. With me, of course, I've had stuff going
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: back 20, 30 years that they've thrown at me. And
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: it's a real problem where people get intimidated into not saying,
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: not speaking what they want to speak about. And we
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: live in a world where the right is obsessed about
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: cancel culture and free speech. When, let's be very clear,
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: The greatest victims of quote-unquote cancel culture in this country
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: have always been Palestinian activists, both on campus, in the media,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: in politics. I mean, let's just be clear, Tommy. We
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: have a Congress filled with white supremacists. We have a guy,
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: I think Andy Ogles from Tennessee this week, who was
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: caught on tape saying, kill them all, right? None of
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: these guys get any attention, no votes of censure. Who
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: is the only member of Congress who's been censured since
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: October the 7th? The one Palestinian woman. So let's just
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: be very clear who the victims of quote-unquote cancel culture are.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: and suppression, and intimidation. It tends to be people who
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: speak out on behalf of Palestinians. And that's the case
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: with reporters who aren't even taking positions. They're just reporting
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: what they're seeing. And what they're seeing, of course, is
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: not favorable to the Israeli narrative, because what they're seeing
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: is mass starvation. What they're seeing are mass killings. What
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: they're seeing are kids being pulled out from the rubble.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: And of course, that doesn't help the Israeli narratives. You
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: have firms like What is it? What's it called? SKD?
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: I can't remember the name of the firm. Anita Dunn,
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: top advisor to Biden, used to work at. A bunch
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: of Biden people used to work there. Let me ask
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: you this, Tommy. Do you believe, as someone who's ex-administration,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: do you believe it would be helpful for our democracy?
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: We talked about the system and people being disillusioned with
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: the system. If we could have clearer barriers between the
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: private sector and the public sector, between people working in
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: government and people working in PR, Yeah.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard to know how it would apply
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: to PR. I do think that, yes, some sort of
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: brighter line cooling off period like we have with ethics
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: and lobbying reform could apply. I haven't thought deeply about
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: how it applied to PR firms in full disclosure. I mean,
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: I left government and started a speech writing firm with
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Jon Favreau before we uh, started selling underwear ads for
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: a living. So I'm probably complicit here. Um, I did
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: read that.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Tommy, don't write off the power of the underwear lobby.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: Tommy John is a powerful lobby. You don't want to
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: cross those guys. Um, maybe I, I read that Washington
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: post story and I thought like on one level, okay,
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: everything we all tweet and post and whatever is like
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: in the public domain forever. And we just all have
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: to be aware of that. But really when I read
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: into like some of the things they were attacking Louise
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Lovelock for, it was like, she said, Oh, Obama's failure
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: to put out a statement about an Egyptian election was deplorable.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: And I was like, I think that's almost terminally dorky,
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: but I don't really find a ton of bias in
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: this dossier here. But I do think, look, this issue
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: in particular is one where people think if they speak out,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: they'll get slapped down. And I think it leads to
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: caution and inaction and a lack of courage, both in
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: media circles, but also among government staffers. Because I know
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: that I could never, ever be confirmed for some sort
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: of State Department job ever again, based on what I've
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: said about Netanyahu alone. And there's a lot of people
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: that are just not going to make that decision.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Tommy, forget State Department. Recently, there was a Muslim judge.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: who was up for a judgeship and went before the
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: Senate a few weeks ago. And Tom Cotton, was it
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: Tom Cotton or Josh Hawley? I interchange all those freaks.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: And one of them said, I think it was Cotton, said,
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: you know, what do you think of.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: He asked like a poem, Zionism, two states. I can't
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: remember what it was. It was something about Israel. And
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: the judge was like, I'm a judge in America. Nobody
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: cares about my views on that issue. Why are you
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: asking me that? Like, that's the point we've reached now
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: where you have those kind of theatrics in the Senate.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: You have Elise Stefanik in the House accusing every college
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: president of being an anti-Semite. Meanwhile, she pushes great replacement theory.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, the use and abuse of anti-Semitism to shut
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: down critics of Israel is also part of the problem here,
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: which is why a lot of reporters rightly don't want
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: to be called anti-Semitic, don't want to be deemed bigots.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: So that also leads to kind of chilling atmosphere around
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: free speech on this issue. And of course, we should
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: speak out against anti-Semitism wherever we see it. And there
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: is a lot of it around, sadly, right now, including
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: in the media. But that doesn't mean you can just
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: not have reporters saying what they need to say about
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: what's happening in the Middle East. That, for me, is
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: a fundamental problem. And it's a real free speech issue.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: We have Republicans trying to pass laws banning American businesses
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: from being able to boycott Israel. You don't have to
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: support a boycott of Israel. But the idea that an
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: American business owner can't make that decision on their own
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: is absurd.
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, anti-Semitism is a real problem. Anti-Semitism is
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: a growing problem, especially since October 7th. It's something I'm
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: quite worried about. I think we all should be calling
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: out and highlighting. But I think the thing that people
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: can't let happen is the conflation of anti-Semitism with criticism
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: of Israeli government policies. You are not anti-American if you
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: think that Trump's Muslim ban is bad. You are criticizing
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: a platform or a policy put forward by a leader.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Those are very different things. And I think when defenders
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: of Israel are call criticism of Israel anti-Semitic, they are
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: actually putting Jews at risk because they are conflating the
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: two and they're making people feel like you can take
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: out all your anger about the Israeli government and what
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: it's doing in Gaza on some guy who lives down
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: the street from you who wears a yarmulke. And that
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: is very, very dangerous.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Let's not forget also some of the most eloquent, passionate,
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: and principled opponents in the streets. against the war in
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: the Middle East since October 7th are groups like JVP,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: Jewish Voice for Peace, if not now, a young Jewish
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: activist group. These are Jewish Americans. They are not anti-Semites.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: The leading opponent of sending more money to Netanyahu is
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: a Jewish senator named Bernie Sanders.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: Medhi, complicating the policy discussion about what to do about
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Gaza is the fact that aid to Israel is part
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: of a broader bill that also includes desperately needed aid
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: for Ukraine and So the Senate passed this supplemental funding
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: bill with 70 votes, overwhelming bipartisan support that you don't
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: often see these days. But Speaker Johnson over on the
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: House side is too scared to bring it to the
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: floor for a vote because, I don't know, Marjorie Taylor
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Greene might get him ejected from his job. He's the coward. So.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: There's also progressive Democrats who say they won't vote for
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: the supplemental bill because aid to Israel doesn't include some
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: of the conditions we talked about earlier. By the way,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: this is why being in the House of Representatives sucks.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: You don't get to vote on clean bills. You have
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: to get these things kind of squished together for political value.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: What do you think the right move is here? You're
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: a principled person. You want to support Ukraine. You're also
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: concerned about what's happening in Gaza. What the hell do
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: you do if you're a member of the House?
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: It's a great question. And three Democrats in the Senate,
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: of course, oppose this. Peter Welch and Bernie Sanders of
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: Vermont and Jeff Merkley. And they said their reasons. Their
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: reasons are right now in this moment, we can't have
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: $ 14 billion of extra aid. We already give every year
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: $ 3 to $ 4 billion of military and economic aid to Israel.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: To a country that is accused, let's remind our listeners,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: of a plausible genocide by the International Court of Justice.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: That is what is at stake right now. And I think,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: for me, it's a no-brainer. I understand the importance of
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: funding aid to Ukraine. I'm not someone who is soft
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: on Putin. But I think, right now, we need our
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: best minds in government to find a way to fund
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Ukraine without funding Netanyahu's war in Gaza, which, as I say,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: the top court in the world says could be a genocide.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: I think history will judge us very harshly if we
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: continue voting for aid, if our elected representatives continue voting
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: for aid to a government that is accused of war crimes,
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: whose ministers are talking openly about ethnic cleansing. I think
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: that's a real problem. And if it was just the occupation,
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: which is bad enough, like if it was pre-October 7th,
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: maybe we could have some debate about, well, you know,
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: the pros and cons of Ukraine aid versus Israel. I
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: think in the middle of this right now, where we're
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: not even ensuring a ceasefire or using any kind of leverage,
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: I think it's a real problem. And I think, as
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: I say, I think in years to come, this will
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: be like the Iraq war, where now everyone's like, of course,
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: everyone wants to say they oppose Iraq. You'll never find
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: anyone who says they defended Iraq, apart from John Bolton.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: But everyone else is like, we never supported Iraq. And
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: I think that's what Gaza is going to look like
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: in 5, 10, 15 years from now. So I appreciate
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: what Bernie Sanders and Peter Welch and Jeff Mirtley did,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: as difficult as it is. And I'm sure in our
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: labyrinthine process that we have in Senate and House, we
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: have to find another way to get the right aid
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: to Ukraine. The reality is the American public, if you
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: poll them, how supportive are they of either? That's the reality.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: American voters will look at this stuff and they are
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: kind of, what about us? What about the money at home? Now,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but I mean,
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: that is the political context during an election year.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that kind of America first nationalist argument is exactly
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: what you're hearing from the MAGA Republicans. It's a powerful one,
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: both currently and historically and in other countries. I was
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: surprised and kind of heartened by a recent Pew poll.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: that found 74% of Americans view the war in Ukraine
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: as important to U.S. national interests, and 59% said it
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: was important to them personally. So that did make me
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: think maybe they would be more open to aid than
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: I thought. I mean, maybe you're, you know. And I
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: have the.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Polls to hand on, but there's also polling showing a
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: lot of Americans support aid to Israel with conditions.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: And don't forget, that's what U.S. law says. That's what
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: the Leahy law says, that you can't just give aid
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: willy-nilly to foreign militaries who are accused of committing war crimes.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and sometimes people talk about this in terms of, well,
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: we shouldn't single out Israel. The point you're making is
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: very important here, which is conditioning aid to say you
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: have to follow international law would be what we do
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: with every other country.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Very briefly on that singling out, I just want to
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: say one thing. If Donald Trump were president right now, Tommy,
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: God help us all, I think you'd see a lot
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: of liberals, a lot of Democrats much more upset about
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: the war in Gaza, and they would be much more
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: supportive of conditions on aid because they would see this
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: as a Trump-Netanyahu thing. And we saw that when he
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: was supporting Saudi Arabia. There was a big support to
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: get conditions on aid to Saudi Arabia and arms sales
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: to Saudi Arabia and the killings. Remember, they passed a
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: resolution in the Senate on the War Powers Act. And
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: that is the reality right now. We're not singling out Israel.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: If Israel was any other country and we were in
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: a different place, we would say, wow, what the hell
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: are we doing here? Why are we supporting this? And
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: that's what we want. We just want some consistency on
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: human rights grounds.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: And you don't want to let partisanship sort of swamp
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: the security and moral interests here. Last Friday, we learned
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: a great setup for the Trump piece of this. We
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: learned that a Russian opposition leader named Alexei Navalny had
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: been killed. Navalny was being held in a Russian penal
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: colony in the Arctic Circle when he died. Putin tried
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: to poison Navalny several times before throwing him in jail
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: for 30 years on trumped up charges. So we should
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: all assume that this was just a state-sanctioned murder of
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Alexei Navalny. Now that everyone listening knows that context, I
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: want you to hear a clip. from President Trump at
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: a Fox News town hall last night.
• 38:03
  Speaker 5: President, the crowd's going crazy here, but during this campaign,
• 38:06
  Speaker 5: a huge amount of your time has been spent in court,
• 38:08
  Speaker 5: in the courtroom in New York and so forth. Now,
• 38:11
  Speaker 5: in this New York civil fraud case, this Judge Arthur
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: Engeron ruled against you for... almost half a billion dollars
• 38:20
  Speaker 5: plus interest that runs every day. When I first read this,
• 38:25
  Speaker 5: like $ 87, 000 a day. How would you put up that
• 38:28
  Speaker 5: kind of money? Because you have a bond to put up.
• 38:30
  Speaker 5: Even if you appeal, you've got to put up escrow money.
• 38:33
  Speaker 5: That's a lot of dough.
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: It is a form of Navalny. It is a form
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: of communism or fascism.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: How could it be Navalny and communism and fascism? I
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: feel like that's... That doesn't quite work.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's unlike Trump to speak in an incoherent
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: manner in a historical or English sense. I mean, MAGA,
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: I made this point recently on social media, MAGA want
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: to have their cake and eat it. They want Trump
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: to be Putin and the victim of Putin at the
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: same time. He'll play anyone going, right? And also, this
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: whole Navalny comparison is so absurd. Anytime something happens abroad,
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Newt Gingrich jumps up and says, this is what's happening
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: to Trump. It's like, no, it's not. If only Merrick
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Garland worked for Vladimir Putin. If only he had an
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: attorney general who refused to do what needed to be
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: done in the timeframe that he had. Trump is the
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: luckiest man in the world. He incited an inspiration. Then
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: the next guy came in and said, let's look forward,
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: not back. And the next guy appointed attorney general who said,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: let's not go after Donald Trump too obviously. And now
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: we're in an election year and none of the trials
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: might be concluded or even start before people get to vote.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: So this idea that he's like Navalny is absurd. He's
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: actually the luckiest accused criminal I've ever come across. and
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: Teflon Trump continues to dodge prosecution. Look, Navalny was almost
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: certainly killed. I mean, the Russian defense is that he died.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: What was it?
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Sudden death syndrome. It doesn't exist for adults, as far
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: as I'm aware.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: It's 47.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: So it's absurd. By the way, on a serious note, Tommy,
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: there are all Republicans now who are claiming that Trump
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: is going to get assassinated. The deep state wants to
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: kill him. And you remember, and we can laugh, but
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: these are the people who thought, including Trump, that Scalia
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: had been assassinated in 2016, when that seat, or 2015,
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: whatever it was, when that seat became available. These people
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: are obsessed with this stuff. So look, this is not Russia, obviously.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: We have a president who's not actually involved in any
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: of the trials, has run away from any involvement with
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: any prosecutions of Trump. And again, to go back to
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: the Russia issue, I was never a big kind of,
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: to quote unquote, Russiagate, as the right puts it. I
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: was never somebody who thought the biggest problem with Donald
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Trump's presidency was that he was an agent of Russia.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: But I always did wonder, how come the guy who
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: slams everyone on Earth, calls everyone an insult and a nickname,
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: never says anything about Putin? How come he never, ever, like,
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: find me one statement where he insults, belittles. He even
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: mocked Kim Jong-un as Little Rocket Man before he fell.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: In love with him.
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: That's true.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: Putin, nothing. Nada. Not from before presidency, not during presidency,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: not since. And even now with Navalny, refuses to say
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: anything critical of Putin. So for me, that's always been
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: a problem that nags.
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: Away at me.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and the irony here is that Navalny, you know,
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: built his career fighting corruption, exposing corruption from people like
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Dmitry Medvedev, who was the former president of Russia, or
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin. But you're right to call out the people
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: who think Trump will be assassinated, because people who believe
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: things like that we'll do things like January 6th and
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: it's worrisome.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: Well, Tucker Carlson, who wants to be Trump's VP, he
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: was asked in Dubai, I think, he flies from one
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: oasis of democracy to another, he sat there and they
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: said to him about, you didn't bring up all the
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: killings under Putin when you did your interview with him.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: And he said, well, every leader has to kill people.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: And it's like, that is now the mindset on the right.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: This is not your Ronald Reagan's Republican Party. Um, this
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: is the body that's just says, I remember Trump said
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: that to Bill O'Reilly, like you think we're not killers.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: And in one sense, as a lefty, I would say,
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: I'm glad people are bringing up the fact that we've
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: killed a lot of innocent people, but the idea that
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: Republicans now are just going around and say, it's fine
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: for foreign dictators to assassinate people because, because Merrick Garland's
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: coming after our guy. I mean, they're not the same thing.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Cause Trump cheated on his taxes. Well, I want
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: to ask you about Tucker Carlson. So he went to Moscow,
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: he interviewed Putin. He forgot to ask about Navalny, but
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: he did have time to film some propaganda videos about
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: the subway being nice and about the grocery stores.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: Do we think Tucker Carlson uses a subway in this country?
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: No, no, no. He's black cars only for the last
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: 30 years. I would love your point of your, your
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: take on this. I, I don't really have a problem
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: with interviewing Vladimir Putin. I do think like, if you're
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: going to do it, you do it right. Like don't
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: throw the guy softballs in the middle of a war.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: You're known for doing really tough interviews. People often retweet
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: the videos of them and wonder why the hell did
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: this person agree to go on that? He show. What's
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: your philosophy on interviewing bad actors like a Vladimir Putin?
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: So totally we should interview Vladimir Putin. How could we not?
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: And the lie that Tucker told in that video that
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: he did announcing the interview was that nobody else, nobody
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: wants to interview him. That's why I came here, which
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: even Putin's spokesman said that's not true. We turn down
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: interview requests from the West every day. Like even Putin's
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: own spokesman disowned Tucker Carlson's nonsense. So of course people
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: want to interview him. It's how you interview him. It's
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: not in a kind of friendly, chatty, sycophantic way. And
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: we've seen Tucker's interview with Trump was very sycophantic and
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: with Putin. And look, if I was interviewing Vladimir Putin,
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: and by the way, Putin has now told other interviewers,
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: I was very disappointed with this interview. I think it
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: would be more challenging. Imagine Vladimir Putin mocking you and saying,
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: you were too soft on me.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: So good.
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: That's just, I mean, take that to your epitaph. For me,
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: what I find fascinating about Vladimir Putin is he's taken
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: some interesting stances in the past. If I sat down
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: with Vladimir Putin, if he ever let me do an interview,
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: which he probably wouldn't, I would want to talk about
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: what he's done to Ukraine in the context of years
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: of pontificating about national sovereignty and borders. Putin was the
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: guy in 2003 who stood up against George W. Bush
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: and Tony Blair and said, you cannot invade Iraq. That's
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: an illegal invasion. It's going to be a disastrous occupation,
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: and you're violating national sovereignty. Hello, Ukraine, 2014 and 2022.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: I feel like you can have actually a quite interesting
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: back and forth, pushing him on the inconsistencies of foreign policy.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: And of course, he's a gaslighter like Trump. You're not
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: going to go too far with such people. But I
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: think exposing contradictions and inconsistencies is always an important thing
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: for interviewers to do.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: I would love to hear that interview.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: I'd probably be in a cell next to poor Evan,
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: who we should remember as well, an American journalist who
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: is still being held.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's a very good point. Putin is detained. A
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal reporter named Evan Gershkovich. Yeah, Mehdi, if
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: I were you and you interviewed Putin, I would probably
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: not drink the tea that you're offered.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: I would do it via Zoom. Yeah, good idea.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to take a quick break. When we
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: come back, we're going to talk about how impeachment is
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: blowing up in Republicans' faces. So Republicans went into this
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: election season hoping to run hard on border security and
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: the idea of the so-called Biden crime family. Lately, it
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: seems like both of those issues are kind of blown
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: up in their faces. So last week, the Justice Department
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: indicted an FBI informant named Alexander Smirnov, who is a
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: confidential source at the center of the Republican allegations that
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: President Biden benefited from Hunter Biden's business dealings in Ukraine.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: This is the guy who allegedly said that Burisma, this
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: Ukrainian natural gas company, had added Hunter to his board
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: to curry favor with Joe Biden and that there had
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: been some sort of bribe or a shakedown or something
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: by the Bidens to get a prosecutor fired. Turns out, Mehdi,
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: it's all fake and there's evidence that Smirnov might be
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: a Russian intelligence asset. In a new court filing on Tuesday,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: Justice Department prosecutors alleged that Smirnov had, quote, recent and
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: extensive contact with Russian intelligence officials who were involved in
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: passing him information about Hunter Biden. So today, President Biden's brother, James,
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: is appearing before the House Oversight Committee, and Hunter Biden
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: is set to testify as part of the impeachment inquiry
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: next week. So, Mehdi, the whole paragraph I just read
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: you about this Smirnov guy, and what a name. It's
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: all giving me flashbacks to 2016, 2017, the Steele dossier,
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: the Russian interference. You know the story. What do you
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: think Democrats do here? There seems like some credible evidence
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: of Russian interference. involvement but i i just i don't
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: want to sound like i'm wearing a tinfoil hat again
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: and deal with this nonsense.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: Which shows you the power of republican propaganda that even
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: you and i sitting on pod save america like oh
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: my god not russia again like they're so beaten into
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: us that the russian thing was nothing burger when it
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: wasn't a nothing burger that we're now kind of getting
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: ptsd and getting defensive let's be clear the indictment is
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: not just from the biden doj It's from a Trump-appointed prosecutor,
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: David Weiss, I can never pronounce his last name, who
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: has brought these charges saying this is ridiculous. This guy
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: was not a credible informant or witness. And don't forget,
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: the entire Republican impeachment strategy against Joe Biden depended on
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: this guy. Like Ted Cruz, I believe I saw someone
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: tweet that Ted Cruz did dozens of his podcast episodes
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: just on this guy's allegations. James Comer called him a
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: credible witness. Chuck Grassley when he's not out looking for pigeons,
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: was citing this guy, right? They were all there, like,
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: bigging up Smirnoff. Remember, the FBI didn't want to give
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: the form with this guy's evidence on it because they said,
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: we don't think he's valid. Republicans insisted, give it to us,
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: give it to us, and then built their entire impeachment
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: case Around this guy who the FBI said, hey, this
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: guy's not credible. He's now being charged. I mean, the indictment,
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: by the way, if Pod Save America listeners have some
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: time tonight, sit down with a copy of the indictment.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: Because I'll tell you what, I've become a fan of
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: reading DOJ indictments recently. They are very well written.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: Of course you are.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: Whether they're written by David Weiss or whether they're written
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: by Jack Smith, there's some good stuff in there. I mean,
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: going back to the Mar-a-Lago bathroom photo. Like, I've become
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: a fan of DOJ indictments. Like, put that on my
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: reading list. This one has a whole section, Tommy, where
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: they talk about Mr Smirnoff meeting with Russian Official One,
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: who Smirnoff describes as the son of some government minister.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: who apparently is in charge of assassinations abroad. Come on,
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: where do you get color and detail like that even
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: in the best of novels? So Smirnoff, the Republican's guy,
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: is talking to a Russian official who's in charge of
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: assassinations abroad. I guess they have a different team for
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: assassinations at home. But this is who he is. And
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: the idea that the entire Biden impeachment campaign Campaign could
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: have been a Russian op is hilarious. But yes does
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: will be treated by a lot of MAGA folks Oh,
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: that's just another conspiracy. That's Democrats blaming Russia. But what's
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: interesting is in the indictment. They make it very clear
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: This isn't just about Russian officials It's about demonstrable evidence
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: of falsehoods Like he said Hunter Biden was in Ukraine
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: when Hunter Biden never went to Ukraine He's you know,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: he made certain specific time and date allegations which weren't
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: true Of course, we've never found any evidence of five
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: million dollars going to Joe Biden And I do want
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: to add one thing Tommy I am no defender of
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: Hunter Biden or James Biden. I do believe they did
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: trade off their name. I do believe they did get
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: jobs and contracts because they were related to Joe Biden.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: That's a different argument. Were Biden family members behaving differently
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: in an unseemly, morally corrupt, I don't know, financially corrupt way? Perhaps, probably.
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: That is not the same thing as saying the President
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: of the United States took a bribe, which is a
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: big allegation, which is an impeachable allegation. There has been
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: zero evidence of that from the very beginning. And the
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: Republicans needed this dodgy dude called Smirnoff to try and
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: make it. And look, they don't care. Fox are not
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: even covering the stuff. Sean Hannity made it the centerpiece
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: of his programming. They'll never do a fact check, which
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: is why I refuse to call them Fox News. It's
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: not a news channel.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're not a news channel. I love the idea
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: of you waking up in the morning, brewing some coffee,
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: just flipping through some indictments. Don't read that Robert Herr one. Well,
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: maybe read it. It starts shitty, but by the end,
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: we get through the details.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: What are you reading tonight, honey? Which indictment from the
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: DOJ should we download from?
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: Matty's in bed with a three-ring binder and a little flashlight.
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: So just do it on the screen. PDF, baby.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, there we go. So plan B, Matty, since you're,
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: as you pointed out, they cannot find any evidence that
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden benefited financially in any way from his son's
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: business dealings is impeaching the secretary of Homeland Security, Alejandro Mayorkas.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: This was, this is like the consolation prize, right? Who
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: can we impeach next? Who else? What's our list? Let's
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: go down. It's basically like the Republicans think that They're
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: impeaching him because they don't agree with the Biden immigration policy, basically.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: The Mayorkas impeachment passed the House by one vote. It
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: took them two tries, but it finally passed. The presumption
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: was it was dead in the Senate. We're now learning
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: that a bunch of conservative senators like Rick Scott, J.D. Vance,
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: Ted Cruz, et cetera, they want Mitch McConnell to force
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: a full impeachment trial. They might have been meeting with
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: the parliamentarian to figure out a way to do it.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: So there's sort of two schools of thought maybe on
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: how Democrats should handle this. One is dismiss impeachment via
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: procedural means, just kind of like get it off the table.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: The other is call the Republicans bluff, have a trial,
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: make the case about how absurd all of this is.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: Do you have a take on what is smarter politically?
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: I would say the first option only because the second
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: option only works if you're good at that kind of
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: political trench warfare and Senate Democrats are not.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: That's a good point.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: I don't have any faith. that the Democratic leadership or
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: the Democrats in the Senate would be able to fight
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: fire with fire in the same way. You know, I
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: just watched recently Chris Murphy, who's a senator I have
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: a lot of time for, you know, very good on
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: a lot of issues. You know, he was coming out
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: recently and praising my Republican friends in the Senate. And
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: I'm always like, I never hear Republican senators talk about
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: their Democratic friends. Funny that. But look, this is a
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: dumb thing to do by the House. Dumb is the
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: word I think Kevin Cramer, Republican senator, used recently saying
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: it's dumb to why we can't entertain this. But yes, Cruz,
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: Mike Lee, the usual suspects are pushing it. People like
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: Ted Cruz and Mike Lee shouldn't even be in the Senate.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: They should have been expelled for their role in inciting
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: an insurrection. The fact that people like Hawley and Cruz
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: are even still senators, I know we've all moved on.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: I'm still mad about the fact that there was never
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: a full ethics committee investigation of Josh Hawley and Ted
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: Cruz's role in trying to overturn American democracy. So the
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: idea that we should take lectures from them about impeachment
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: is absurd. No, I would try and get rid of it.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: I do not believe in this Democratic Party argument that, hey,
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: let's talk about immigration and talk about how we did
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: this bipartisan bill and they turned it down and actually
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: we're playing 3D chess. No, sorry. You look at the polling.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Do you see the polls after that bipartisan bill failed?
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: They said they blame Biden more than Trump for that failure.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: People don't follow this stuff closely. When they think of immigration,
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: they think Republicans tough, Democrats weak, Republicans win, Democrats lose.
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: The idea that you should want to be talking about
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: the border going into the presidential election and the idea
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: that that helps anyone other than the Republicans is mad.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: I agree with you broadly. I think you need an
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: answer on the border. And I think that the Republicans
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: negotiating and then killing their own bipartisan immigration bill is
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: that answer. And you're absolutely right. There was some polling
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: that came out right away that showed the majority of
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: voters blame President Biden for what happened, which, as you note,
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: shows that they're just not paying attention and they just
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: have negative feelings about Biden. So they're blaming him for anything.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: So I do think, you know, there will need to
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: be some paid media efforts to get that message in
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: front of voters so they are better educated on the issue.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: I do not think an impeachment hearing is going to
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: do it. I also think the Democrats just need to
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: highlight how extreme Trump would be on immigration in the
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: second term.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: That for me is very important.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: See the post today, deportation to the military?
• 53:42
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: And going back to our earlier conversation about Michigan and Muslims,
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: when I talk to people who are skeptical about Biden
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: and say, one of the things that comes up is,
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: are you okay with a Trump term? And they're like,
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: they're either not okay with a Trump term, or they'll
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: say something like, we survived Trump once. We can survive
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: him again. And then what I do in that case, Tommy,
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: is I lay out what's coming in Trump term two,
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: because Trump two is not Trump one.
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: This is not a sequel to a movie which is
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: the same as the first movie. It is very different
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: what is coming down the line. It is full-blown fascism,
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: and I'm not just saying this in a hyperbolic way
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: as a critic. This is the stuff they're saying, what
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: Stephen Miller is saying, what Mike Davis is saying, what
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump is saying, what Steve Bannon is saying. And
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: I lay out what's coming up, including massive detention camps
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: to sweep up people well inside the interior of this
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: country from day one. The use of the Insurrection Act
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: to deploy the military. So a friend of mine said recently, well,
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: you know, we marched against Trump. We'll do it again.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: And I said, yeah, this time you might get shot at.
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: And that's, again, not hyperbole. We know from Esper, his
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: former defense secretary, that Trump said, why can't we shoot
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: them in the legs? The George Floyd protest. And he said,
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: you can't do that, Mr.
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: President.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: Next time round, Defense Secretary Kash Patel will not say,
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: you can't do that, Mr. President. He'll say, let's do it.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: So this is what's coming down the line. And actually,
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: when you talk to people and explain what's coming, actually,
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: you do get some sense of there are persuadables. And
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: I think the Democrats need to be doing that full
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: bore right now, 24-7 of what is coming from a
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: Trump second term and not this whole my Republican friends
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: in the Senate. It's the fascist enablers who are coming
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: down the track.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: Yes, totally agree. And luckily, Trump is kind of helping
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: us tell that story. He doesn't mind anything.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: He says it out loud every single day.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so he did a Fox town hall last night.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: It was with Laura Ingraham, where he was his usual
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: thoughtful coach himself, talking about his legal prowess, many other things.
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: How he's loved by billionaires. Let's take a listen to
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: a little supercut we did.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: There's crime.
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: There's violent crime. There's migraine crime. We have a new
• 55:33
  Speaker 4: category of crime. It's called migraine crime. And it's going
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: to be worse than any other form of crime. I
• 55:39
  Speaker 4: have to say, this is in a very positive way,
• 55:42
  Speaker 4: Tim Scott, he has been much better for me than
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: he was for himself.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: I watched his campaign.
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: They come out with faucets where no water comes out.
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: You know, if you go and buy a home, and
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: they know what I mean, the showers, you stand under
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: a shower and there's no water coming and you end
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: up standing there five times longer. If you have mail-in voting,
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: you automatically have fraud.
• 56:04
  Speaker 5: Okay, well there's mail-in voting in.
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: Florida and you won huge.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: If you have it, you're going to have fun. But
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: you won't.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: Sort of a greatest hits, some new stuff.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: The greatest hits are there, the shower, the obsession with
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: showers and faucets and water pressure. That is a book
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: in itself. One day we will discover why Donald Trump
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: is obsessed. And when people say to me, oh, Joe Biden,
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: he confused Sisi with the president of Mexico. I'm like,
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: the other guy wants to inject Clorox into your veins
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: and is obsessed with toilet flush levels, right? It's insane.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: You would get up and walk away from the guy
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: on the subway, on Tucker Carlson subway, who talked about
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: shower pressure incessantly. By the way, in that clip, Tommy,
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: he yet again admits to crimes because he says mail-in
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: voting is fraud. That makes him a fraudster because he
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: voted by mail in Florida in 2020 in the GOP primary.
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: So once again, he can't help himself, but just admit
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: to all sorts of wrongdoing, even on his own terms.
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: If it's fraud, then he's a fraudster.
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: We're going to have to listen to a lot more
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: of those. CNN reported that President Biden personally told his
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: staff to be more aggressive in highlighting the stuff Trump
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: is saying, the inflammatory comments, et cetera.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: I guess the shit I think was the crazy shit.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: It's exactly, which was as reported on CNN. Uh, it's
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: nice of Trump to make it easy for us. So yes,
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: clearly they will keep doing this. Mehdi, thank you so
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: much for doing the show today. It's so great to
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: talk with you, as always. And everyone should buy your book,
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: Win Every Argument, because then you can just, you know,
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: beat everyone in your family over holidays or whatever debate
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: you need to do.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: Or ahead of an election, if you're trying to persuade people.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's that one.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's that one.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: That too.
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I look forward to coming
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: back next week as well. You're not going to be
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: that easily, Tom.
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: Damn right.
• 57:43
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