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Pregnancy and AI · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome stuff.
0:07
Speaker 2: One ever told you perfection if I heard you? And
0:18
Speaker 2: once again we are so happy to be joined by friend, colleague, talented,
0:24
Speaker 2: tenacious Bridget Todd.
0:27
Speaker 3: Welcome Bridget Oh, I got the double G. I love
0:30
Speaker 3: the alliteration and that is impressive.
0:32
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.
0:34
Speaker 2: We always love having you. Thank you for acknowledgment of
0:39
Speaker 2: my alliteration.
0:40
Speaker 1: I try.
0:42
Speaker 2: How have you been, Bridget.
0:44
Speaker 1: I'm doing well.
0:45
Speaker 3: Right before we got on, I'm like knee deep in
0:48
Speaker 3: do you all watch Love Island? I'm like knee deep
0:51
Speaker 3: in Love Island Takes? So I'm my head is like
0:55
Speaker 3: do you know when you watch way too much TikTok
0:57
Speaker 3: or way too much short form content about one subject
0:59
Speaker 3: and then it's like all you can think and you're
1:01
Speaker 3: kind of it's almost like a sugar high.
1:02
Speaker 1: That's I'm in.
1:03
Speaker 3: That's so if I seem out of sorts, I've been
1:06
Speaker 3: watching NonStop Love Island and Love Island Takes.
1:10
Speaker 4: I actually made mention to Annie that I have never
1:13
Speaker 4: watched this show. We actually were talking about like slurs
1:17
Speaker 4: and all these things, and I'm sure you know we're
1:18
Speaker 4: talking about, but I'm being fed Love Island content against
1:21
Speaker 4: my will, much like a lot of other stuff, Like
1:23
Speaker 4: I have never in my life ever watched this show
1:27
Speaker 4: to the point that I really thought it was just
1:30
Speaker 4: a spoof like they talked about in thirty Rock, you know,
1:33
Speaker 4: Milf Island that I was like, is this a thing? So,
1:38
Speaker 4: but like TikTok is like, no, you will definitely enjoy this.
1:41
Speaker 4: I'm like, I definitely don't want to be a part
1:43
Speaker 4: of this because I am very nervous and this makes
1:45
Speaker 4: me really sad in terms of like why are men
1:49
Speaker 4: so bad?
1:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not, especially if you haven't seen it.
1:52
Speaker 3: It's not like this like this was a bad season,
1:55
Speaker 3: and I think it's a season that illustrates how social
1:59
Speaker 3: media has really impacted reality TV and right, Yeah, and
2:04
Speaker 3: it's not just one castmate who was thrown off for
2:07
Speaker 3: using an anti Asian slur. Another castmate was not thrown off,
2:11
Speaker 3: but was revealed to have made like an ain't a
2:14
Speaker 3: skit making fun of Asians.
2:15
Speaker 1: So it's it's interesting. I was like, Wow, what are
2:17
Speaker 1: the odds two different people on the show, What are
2:19
Speaker 1: the odds?
2:20
Speaker 4: Well, I feel like that's another episode that we should
2:22
Speaker 4: talk about reality TV and social media, so you know
2:26
Speaker 4: I'm gonna put that on your plate too.
2:27
Speaker 1: Oh my god, this is something I mean.
2:28
Speaker 3: I make no apologies for the fact that I watched
2:31
Speaker 3: way too much reality TV, so that is very much
2:34
Speaker 3: in my wheelhouse.
2:36
Speaker 4: When I was on cable TV, I definitely had a
2:38
Speaker 4: lot of Bravo shows come up on my world. I mean,
2:41
Speaker 4: million Dollar Matchmaker. I don't know why why I watched that.
2:44
Speaker 4: There was no reason for me to watch that. I
2:46
Speaker 4: was not gonna be on that show, but yet I
2:48
Speaker 4: was fascinated.
2:50
Speaker 1: It's so good.
2:50
Speaker 3: I don't know where Patti Stanger is now the million
2:53
Speaker 3: Dollar Matchmaker, but I did enjoy her show quite a bit.
2:57
Speaker 4: Can't help it anyway.
2:58
Speaker 2: Sorry, back to no Oh, we should definitely come back
3:02
Speaker 2: and talk about that. I would love to. I will
3:04
Speaker 2: share my story of when I was on Impossible Kitchen
3:07
Speaker 2: and didn't realize I was on the like before part
3:11
Speaker 2: where I was supposed to be shocked.
3:13
Speaker 1: What is Impossible Kitchen?
3:15
Speaker 2: Oh, it's just like a you know, they go in
3:18
Speaker 2: and they find a restaurant that's terrible. I'm probably it's
3:22
Speaker 2: a restaurant impossible. Sorry, that's I got the title wrong.
3:25
Speaker 2: That probably helps you go in and the restaurant's terrible
3:29
Speaker 2: and the guy tries to fix it, but they bring
3:32
Speaker 2: in people to taste the restaurant's food before and after,
3:36
Speaker 2: so you're supposed to be like this is so gross,
3:38
Speaker 2: and then after like, oh wow, improvement. But I was
3:41
Speaker 2: a college kid at the time, and I was like,
3:43
Speaker 2: this is free fried chicken.
3:44
Speaker 4: So.
3:46
Speaker 1: It tastes great. No issues here unless raw. Thank you
3:52
Speaker 1: my gosh.
3:53
Speaker 3: This is such a non sequentar and feel feel free
3:55
Speaker 3: to like not include this in the show.
3:56
Speaker 1: But here where I live in Ice live in at
4:00
Speaker 1: a park, Maryland, and there.
4:01
Speaker 3: Was a very popular bar called Pirate's Tavern that was
4:05
Speaker 3: a pirate theme bar that like when I.
4:08
Speaker 1: Lived in Maryland, this we would you would. The food
4:10
Speaker 1: was terrible.
4:11
Speaker 3: I got food poisoning there multiple times, but like you
4:14
Speaker 3: would go for a laugh because the staff dressed pirate.
4:17
Speaker 3: The owner clearly really cared a lot about pirate like
4:20
Speaker 3: they like they had a pirate band, and one of
4:23
Speaker 3: the songs that the pirate band would perform was the
4:25
Speaker 3: free Credit Report dot Com.
4:27
Speaker 1: Song, you know, the pirate version.
4:28
Speaker 3: Yes, this place was wild, and it was on the
4:31
Speaker 3: show Bar Rescue where that guy I don't know his name,
4:35
Speaker 3: he's a huge trumper, but I forget his name. He
4:37
Speaker 3: comes in and he tells them what's wrong with it,
4:39
Speaker 3: and his feedback was to not make it pirate. He
4:43
Speaker 3: was like, oh, you're in a downtown corporate environment, you
4:46
Speaker 3: should make the theme be corporate. So the theme they
4:49
Speaker 3: turned it from a pirate bar into like almost like
4:52
Speaker 3: a Dilbert theme bar, and it totally tanked it. It
4:56
Speaker 3: turned into this huge local scandal where the pirates were
4:59
Speaker 3: like burning an effigy of this guy, like it was wild.
5:03
Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm sharing this. It's just a
5:04
Speaker 1: story that I love.
5:06
Speaker 4: That's amazing. Well that's the reality of reality TV. Like
5:10
Speaker 4: you think it's all going well, and the way they
5:13
Speaker 4: were like no, definitely, this is the worst idea, and
5:15
Speaker 4: then they fixed it and it comes back to me like, no,
5:17
Speaker 4: this is this is worse. Like I love the renovation
5:20
Speaker 4: shows where the people come in after the fix and
5:22
Speaker 4: they're like, what the hell did you do in my place?
5:24
Speaker 2: Yes?
5:24
Speaker 1: I hate it, no, but my god, but this is
5:31
Speaker 1: the worst and I hate it. Samantha. You like, where
5:35
Speaker 1: were the trading spaces there?
5:37
Speaker 3: Literally it would be like we glued straw to the
5:40
Speaker 3: walls of your living room, or like we put your
5:43
Speaker 3: furniture on the ceiling to make it upside down room.
5:45
Speaker 3: These are not exaggerations. These things actually happened on the show.
5:48
Speaker 3: It was you need to find it on YouTube cause
5:51
Speaker 3: you would.
5:51
Speaker 4: Like I'm gonna have to search for those because they
5:53
Speaker 4: would make me happy.
5:54
Speaker 2: I have a relative who was on I don't know
5:56
Speaker 2: if it was that show, but was on some kind
5:59
Speaker 2: of We're going to go in and fix up your place,
6:01
Speaker 2: and I think she actually lived in Washington, d C.
6:04
Speaker 2: And they painted her walls pink and then got a
6:12
Speaker 2: paintball gun with like lime green balls and shot the
6:16
Speaker 2: wall so it had these like green polka dots on it.
6:19
Speaker 1: She was distructed.
6:22
Speaker 2: She was not.
6:27
Speaker 4: I love it.
6:30
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, yeah, you're on this show. We had
6:33
Speaker 3: a crew come in and just destroy your home. Aren't
6:35
Speaker 3: you so happy? And then you're on camera so you
6:37
Speaker 3: can't really be like, you can't have the reaction that
6:39
Speaker 3: you probably want to have, and you're from restrain O.
6:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, staring at everybody.
6:46
Speaker 1: Incredible, Oh my goodness.
6:48
Speaker 2: Anyway, well, tabling that for a future episode.
6:53
Speaker 1: Had a rabbit hole. I'm sorry, no, I actually it
6:56
Speaker 1: is my fault.
6:57
Speaker 4: I do this often, but yeah, keep going to a
6:59
Speaker 4: different the actual.
7:01
Speaker 2: The actual thing that we're talking about, which might be
7:04
Speaker 2: it might give you the same sensations it kind of
7:07
Speaker 2: does walking into your old home and being like, Wow,
7:11
Speaker 2: this is not really where I'm belonging anymore. What's going
7:15
Speaker 2: on here? At least at the superficial I don't know
7:18
Speaker 2: much about this level. So Bridget, what are we talking
7:22
Speaker 2: about today?
7:23
Speaker 1: Today?
7:24
Speaker 3: We are talking about also masterfult segue there, Annie, you're
7:29
Speaker 3: really a pro. Today we are talking about the intersection
7:32
Speaker 3: of ai chatchyput and pregnancy. This actually was a was
7:36
Speaker 3: a story that was flagged to me by a longtime
7:39
Speaker 3: Sminty listener, Susie Susie to go on social media. If
7:42
Speaker 3: you're listening, Hey Susie, thanks for flagging this because it
7:45
Speaker 3: was super interesting.
7:46
Speaker 2: Right, thank you.
7:48
Speaker 4: I'm very grateful that Bridget you took this because as
7:51
Speaker 4: soon as we looked at this headline, I was like, oh,
7:52
Speaker 4: dear God, yeah, I don't know what to do with this.
7:55
Speaker 4: I'm alla wait for a second, I let this do.
7:57
Speaker 4: And then I was like, of course, bridges on top
7:59
Speaker 4: of this even better.
8:01
Speaker 3: It's a pretty weird topic. So Susie flagged this piece
8:04
Speaker 3: in Rolling Stone called chat gpt is helping women get pregnant,
8:07
Speaker 3: which sounds like a.
8:10
Speaker 1: Very well concept.
8:11
Speaker 3: A lot of times when I'm reporting on women and AI,
8:14
Speaker 3: it's because AI is being used to do something absolutely
8:18
Speaker 3: horrifying to women, like AI new toify apps, or like
8:21
Speaker 3: AI non consensual deep fakes, things like that. So it
8:25
Speaker 3: actually was nice to spend a little bit of time
8:28
Speaker 3: thinking about that sort of non completely horrifying, though interesting
8:32
Speaker 3: and maybe unexpected use cases for the way AI is
8:36
Speaker 3: showing up for folks like pregnancy. So in this piece,
8:39
Speaker 3: I'll give you just some brief summary in Rolling Stone
8:42
Speaker 3: by Fortessa Latifi. Basically, the piece argues that people who
8:46
Speaker 3: are hoping to become pregnant are turning to the chatbot
8:49
Speaker 3: chatjit bt for advice, tips and informations during their pregnancy journeys,
8:53
Speaker 3: and importantly, they are actually changing their conception plans based
8:57
Speaker 3: on whatever advice chat jipt gives them. They're even taking
9:01
Speaker 3: it so far as to like asking chat to be
9:03
Speaker 3: tita psychically channel their future child.
9:06
Speaker 1: And even though there are lots.
9:08
Speaker 3: Of privacy concerns about this kind of sensitive use case,
9:11
Speaker 3: which we'll talk.
9:11
Speaker 1: About they're really getting benefit out of this.
9:26
Speaker 4: There's a lot of questions I have in this conversation,
9:29
Speaker 4: but you know, I feel like the last time you
9:31
Speaker 4: were here, we definitely hit onto how people were using
9:36
Speaker 4: AI to propose. Essentially they've got you know, that dude
9:40
Speaker 4: proposed to their AI bought instead of his girlfriend, which
9:45
Speaker 4: is one conversation. And then like, I've definitely read a
9:48
Speaker 4: lot of headlines about people using it for therapy, essentially
9:52
Speaker 4: turning to these chatbots to be like help me in
9:55
Speaker 4: these situations, which is both okay, I like at least
10:01
Speaker 4: they're seeking something, but it's also concerning because Internet, right.
10:07
Speaker 1: You really summarized it quite well.
10:09
Speaker 3: You know, when people report using AI for things like therapy,
10:15
Speaker 3: it's sort of I mean, I feel too bays about it.
10:16
Speaker 3: On the one hand, therapy can be expensive, it can
10:19
Speaker 3: be inaccessible for a lot of folks, and so I'm
10:23
Speaker 3: happy that there are people are finding ways to get
10:26
Speaker 3: around that. However, big however, we know a lot about
10:31
Speaker 3: how AI works, and we've seen reports of AI really
10:37
Speaker 3: presenting some challenges with people who are really struggling. Right, So,
10:39
Speaker 3: if you're struggling with things like mania or delusion, AI
10:43
Speaker 3: is the last place you should be going to find
10:46
Speaker 3: comfort because we know that AI has a tendency to
10:49
Speaker 3: just spit back what you want to hear. There are
10:52
Speaker 3: pretty shocking reports of people, you know, experiencing worsening mania
10:57
Speaker 3: and delusions because of their interactions with AI.
11:00
Speaker 1: Not to mention all of the like privacy stuff and
11:03
Speaker 1: that we'll get into, but like, so it is. And
11:06
Speaker 1: I think that in the.
11:07
Speaker 3: Conversation about the role that chatbots like chat tipt can
11:10
Speaker 3: play in pregnancy is the very same thing, right, where yes,
11:14
Speaker 3: I am happy that people who are trying to get pregnant,
11:17
Speaker 3: who are embarking on this sometimes incredibly fraught, complicated, anxiety
11:21
Speaker 3: inducing journey, have a resource that they self report makes
11:26
Speaker 3: them feel better. But that doesn't mean that resource is
11:29
Speaker 3: not without concerns that we shouldn't really understand in a
11:33
Speaker 3: clear eyed way, right.
11:36
Speaker 4: And I guess in actuality when it comes to asking questions,
11:40
Speaker 4: I mean, it's become a descriptor Google this if you
11:44
Speaker 4: want information. So we've always kind of turned to the
11:46
Speaker 4: Internet and now a lot of like Google in itself,
11:50
Speaker 4: And I keep saying that I'm not trying to aim
11:53
Speaker 4: at Google, but that they have AI as the first topic,
11:57
Speaker 4: like first suggested, this is what may be what you
12:00
Speaker 4: looking for and gives you that summary. So it is
12:02
Speaker 4: not too big of a stretch that we're turning from
12:04
Speaker 4: internet to chatbot, right or and.
12:08
Speaker 3: Like it kind of makes sense when you think about it,
12:09
Speaker 3: because when you are experiencing some sort of a symptom
12:13
Speaker 3: or you have a question, the first place most people
12:15
Speaker 3: go to is the internet, right, and so that's where
12:17
Speaker 3: you would be going to to answer these questions. But
12:20
Speaker 3: pregnancy Internet can be confusing. There's a ton of information.
12:24
Speaker 3: A lot of that information, as you just astutely pointed out,
12:27
Speaker 3: SAM is being filtered through AI if you're googling, and
12:31
Speaker 3: then even if you go to sites that are kind
12:33
Speaker 3: of human curated, like message boards like the Bump or
12:36
Speaker 3: what to Expect, that can be a little bit confusing.
12:39
Speaker 1: I just checked them out.
12:41
Speaker 3: I'm not pregnant, but like I went to prepare for
12:43
Speaker 3: this episode, I went to look at some of them,
12:45
Speaker 3: and even that was confusing. There they're full of acronyms
12:48
Speaker 3: like FtM, do you guys know what that means? That's
12:52
Speaker 3: first time mom or TCC trying to conceive, and so
12:57
Speaker 3: it can be confusing to use the Internet to answer
13:02
Speaker 3: questions about fertility and pregnancy and health just in general.
13:06
Speaker 3: And so yeah, it makes sense that chat ept might
13:10
Speaker 3: be easier to navigate, It might be easier to just
13:13
Speaker 3: ask a question, to have a chatbot's bit a clear
13:16
Speaker 3: answer back at you. That that does make sense to me.
13:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with what Samantha was saying.
13:25
Speaker 2: I used to joke that Google is my therapist because
13:29
Speaker 2: I just have a question and I need it answered.
13:32
Speaker 2: Can you just please give me an answer? And especially
13:34
Speaker 2: if there's medical stuff involved, or something like pregnancy, where
13:39
Speaker 2: there is a lot of confusion, like should I go
13:41
Speaker 2: to the hospital? House? Serious? Is this?
13:43
Speaker 4: What is this?
13:44
Speaker 2: Don't laugh at me, Samantha, I did go to the hospital,
13:50
Speaker 2: but you know, but it is because unfortunately, in our system,
13:54
Speaker 2: it's very expensive to go to the hospital. So you
13:57
Speaker 2: want some thing something to give you the answer of
14:03
Speaker 2: am I okay, what's going on?
14:06
Speaker 1: What do I need to do?
14:07
Speaker 2: And there still is so much misinformation and misconception and
14:14
Speaker 2: just not a lot of information about pregnancy.
14:18
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and it's just there. It's hard to access reliable
14:22
Speaker 3: information about pregnancy, especially now where I mean, I don't
14:26
Speaker 3: want to get political, but we have people in charge
14:31
Speaker 3: of you know, government organizations that are essensibly there to
14:35
Speaker 3: help us get information about our health, who might not
14:37
Speaker 3: be super trustworthy or informed, right, And so we have
14:41
Speaker 3: influencers who get lots and lots of platforms on social
14:45
Speaker 3: media who might not know what they're talking about. So
14:47
Speaker 3: I think, especially now, the Internet can be a difficult
14:51
Speaker 3: place for people to find clear, reliable, accurate information to
14:56
Speaker 3: help them make decisions about their bodies and their health.
14:58
Speaker 3: It just is the reality of trying to find information
15:01
Speaker 3: and our information ecosystem. In twenty twenty five, and in
15:04
Speaker 3: the piece, the journalist spoke to a woman who used
15:07
Speaker 3: chatjet BT on her pregnancy journey, who said, I was
15:09
Speaker 3: able to ask my dumb questions in a bunch of
15:11
Speaker 3: different ways that helped me understand the science, which helped
15:14
Speaker 3: me to have a baby. I found understanding the science
15:17
Speaker 3: of conception way easier this way than just navigating through
15:20
Speaker 3: books and the crappy articles that Google gives you these days.
15:23
Speaker 1: Right, And so it's.
15:24
Speaker 3: Exactly what you were saying, that it can just be
15:28
Speaker 3: hard to navigate and even I mean, I think it
15:32
Speaker 3: really says something about our information ecosystem that chatjet BT,
15:35
Speaker 3: a platform that we know is prone to misinformation hallucinations,
15:39
Speaker 3: which is just like inaccurate facts that people are like, well,
15:43
Speaker 3: that's still better than just like me up to my
15:46
Speaker 3: own devices on the internet these.
15:47
Speaker 1: Days, you know.
15:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, Unfortunately, sometimes you just want an answer, even if
15:54
Speaker 2: you know this might not be correct, But I just
15:58
Speaker 2: really want things some kind of comfort or some kind
16:02
Speaker 2: of this is what I should do, some kind of
16:04
Speaker 2: guide map.
16:05
Speaker 4: Right, I mean definitely, I see like the going back
16:09
Speaker 4: and forth and asking different ways because just trying to
16:12
Speaker 4: google my own symptoms and like forgetting things that I
16:14
Speaker 4: would sell to the doctor that I wouldn't tell the
16:16
Speaker 4: doctor and coming back and be like, oh but I
16:18
Speaker 4: forgot to add this. I forgot to add this. So
16:21
Speaker 4: when like that person was talking about asking several different ways,
16:24
Speaker 4: that makes sense because you don't have the time to
16:26
Speaker 4: or the doctor doesn't have the time for you to
16:28
Speaker 4: send them. Oh and also this and also this and also.
16:31
Speaker 3: This, Yeah, and exactly, so that is exactly what the
16:35
Speaker 3: research And not only is it what the research suggests,
16:37
Speaker 3: but it's also what people who use AI to answer
16:40
Speaker 3: their medical questions are self reporting, because you might be
16:43
Speaker 3: thinking like why on Earth with someone turned to chat
16:45
Speaker 3: gpt for medical advice, But people self report feeling more
16:49
Speaker 3: open when they're asking AI a medical question as opposed
16:53
Speaker 3: to a human doctor. In twenty twenty three, a study
16:56
Speaker 3: called comparing physician and artificial intelligence chatbot responses to patient
17:00
Speaker 3: questions posted to a public social media forum actually found
17:04
Speaker 3: that people rated chat sjat BT higher than human doctors
17:08
Speaker 3: when it came to things like being empathetic, and actually
17:11
Speaker 3: the results were like not even close. For nearly eighty
17:14
Speaker 3: percent of the answers. Chat sheet BT was considered better
17:17
Speaker 3: than the physicians. Specifically, when it came to giving good
17:20
Speaker 3: or very good quality answers, chat SHEETPT received high ratings
17:24
Speaker 3: for seventy eight percent of responses, while physicians only did
17:27
Speaker 3: so for twenty two percent of responses. And when it
17:29
Speaker 3: came to giving empathetic or very empathetic answers, chat sheep
17:33
Speaker 3: BT scored forty five percent and human physicians four point
17:37
Speaker 3: six percent. Now a few important caveats about this study. Importantly,
17:43
Speaker 3: this particular study was not designed to answer two key questions.
17:46
Speaker 3: Do AI responses offer accurate medical information and improve patient
17:50
Speaker 3: health while also avoiding confusion?
17:52
Speaker 1: Or harm. The study did not answer that question, and
17:55
Speaker 1: will patients accept that questions they pose to their doctor
17:58
Speaker 1: might be answered by a butt The study also did
18:00
Speaker 1: not look at that question. But another thing to.
18:03
Speaker 3: Note is that chatjeet bt gave much longer answers than
18:08
Speaker 3: the human physicians. Human physicians averaged fifty two word answers,
18:14
Speaker 3: while chat cheat BT gave two hundred and eleven word answers.
18:17
Speaker 3: Kind of goes back to what you were saying, like,
18:19
Speaker 3: that's probably because human doctors are busy, and chatcheat BT
18:22
Speaker 3: has all the time in the world for you to
18:24
Speaker 3: ask the question a thousand different ways, and you know
18:27
Speaker 3: it's not going to quote judge you because it's not human.
18:30
Speaker 3: Where it's like, you don't want to waste a human
18:32
Speaker 3: doctor's time. Maybe if you're a woman or a marginalized person,
18:36
Speaker 3: you might be thinking like, oh, I don't want this
18:39
Speaker 3: doctor to get some idea in their head about me,
18:41
Speaker 3: about what kind of person I am, if I'm like
18:43
Speaker 3: annoying or like thinking that I'm a hypochondriac or some
18:46
Speaker 3: sort of a nuisance patient. It sucks that these are
18:49
Speaker 3: the kind of questions that oftentimes women have to have
18:52
Speaker 3: in their head when they're speaking to a human doctor.
18:54
Speaker 3: When you're talking to AI, you don't necessarily feel that
18:57
Speaker 3: you have to keep that in mind because the AI
18:59
Speaker 3: has all the time in the world to answer your
19:01
Speaker 3: questions one hundred different ways.
19:03
Speaker 2: Right.
19:03
Speaker 4: I will throw out there too again because Bridget, as
19:06
Speaker 4: you know, Annie and I have recently decided to be
19:08
Speaker 4: adults and see doctors or of these attempt to see
19:11
Speaker 4: doctors and medical professionals like that. My experience even with
19:14
Speaker 4: one specific doctor, and it was telemedicine, and she wasn't
19:17
Speaker 4: based out of Atlanta, but it was the quickest I
19:18
Speaker 4: could get That was kind of like forty five minutes
19:20
Speaker 4: outside of Atlanta. I don't know. She was googling half
19:23
Speaker 4: the answers. I was asking, are you kidding? And she
19:26
Speaker 4: told me that I could hear googling and then she
19:30
Speaker 4: would call it to the receptionist and be like, can
19:32
Speaker 4: you look up this? And they were just giving me
19:34
Speaker 4: information that I had already looked up myself. But I
19:36
Speaker 4: didn't want to be a jerk and be like, yeah,
19:39
Speaker 4: I was hoping to oh cool going back to much
19:43
Speaker 4: at pot like it literally was.
19:45
Speaker 1: One of those moments, well, what's funny?
19:47
Speaker 3: So my late mother, god rest her soul, was a physician.
19:50
Speaker 3: And the thing I remember a lot about her experience
19:53
Speaker 3: as a physician was so many medical books. When I
19:56
Speaker 3: would go in, when I would visit her at her office,
19:57
Speaker 3: she was always looking at a medical book. And so I,
20:00
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not a doctor, so like people who
20:02
Speaker 3: are doctors can write in but like, I almost wonder
20:05
Speaker 3: if your doctor googling.
20:08
Speaker 1: It is the twenty twenty five version of my mom
20:10
Speaker 1: going to.
20:10
Speaker 3: A bug, right, but owning and validating that it doesn't
20:13
Speaker 3: feel great to see your doctor googling when you're like,
20:16
Speaker 3: why I could have done that, right?
20:18
Speaker 4: I mean, it was really one of those funny moments
20:20
Speaker 4: because she was giving me information that I already had
20:22
Speaker 4: looked up, but I decided to go see an in
20:25
Speaker 4: person doctor because I'm like, I don't need to do
20:27
Speaker 4: this to myself. Blah blah blah. Also need references because
20:29
Speaker 4: you know how the system works. But it just made
20:32
Speaker 4: me laugh because I definitely understand they have to keep
20:35
Speaker 4: up with the times. I would rather you be a
20:37
Speaker 4: doctor who often relearns or goes back to learn about
20:41
Speaker 4: the new things, new procedures, new ways, because we know
20:44
Speaker 4: as time goes hopefully there are better ways to do things,
20:47
Speaker 4: safer ways to do things, so that is an automatic.
20:49
Speaker 4: Of course we want we want that to occur. But
20:52
Speaker 4: it was really really uh ironic. I guess that I
20:55
Speaker 4: was in there were like, no, but I already but
20:57
Speaker 4: that this is a good okay, cool, you know, like
21:01
Speaker 4: it was one of those moments watching her doing this,
21:03
Speaker 4: as well as knowing that a lot of this was
21:05
Speaker 4: getting through the Ai Gemini, which is again not a ponsor,
21:09
Speaker 4: was part of the reason she was giving me some
21:10
Speaker 4: of the answers because I could read what she was saying.
21:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I will I have this big caveat,
21:16
Speaker 1: I wouldn't.
21:16
Speaker 3: I don't trust jem and I Jimi will have you
21:19
Speaker 3: put in glue in your pizza recipe and telling you
21:21
Speaker 3: all kinds of stuff. And what's funny is that not
21:24
Speaker 3: not to like dunk on Google, but to dunk on
21:27
Speaker 3: them a little bit. Yeah, Google search has I think
21:29
Speaker 3: that people at Google would say this have gotten worse,
21:34
Speaker 3: Like the version of Googles you and I are using
21:35
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty five in July today is worse in
21:38
Speaker 3: the version we were using just a few years ago.
21:40
Speaker 3: Because of the way that they have really pushed forward
21:43
Speaker 3: AI integration and have like really made some changes, and yeah,
21:49
Speaker 3: I like, I think, And they actually talk about this
21:52
Speaker 3: in the article that women who say they're using CHATCHYPT
21:56
Speaker 3: and AI to help answer their fertility questions, they know
21:59
Speaker 3: that CHAT is prone to incorrect answers, and they say, like, well,
22:03
Speaker 3: I know that, but I could be finding those same
22:05
Speaker 3: incorrect answers even if I wasn't using AI, and that
22:08
Speaker 3: it's prompting me to point me in the right direction
22:11
Speaker 3: to find the actual answer myself. So even if I'm Micha,
22:14
Speaker 3: well that doesn't sound right, it's giving me the opportunity
22:16
Speaker 3: to like go look into myself and where I should
22:19
Speaker 3: be looking, which I thought was interesting.
22:31
Speaker 2: Another thing that Samantha and I have experienced in our
22:36
Speaker 2: ongoing attempts to g to doctors is link the wait
22:41
Speaker 2: times and honestly a real difficulty accessing healthcare once we
22:46
Speaker 2: were actually trying to do it. And I can only
22:51
Speaker 2: imagine when you're talking about people who are pregnant those
22:56
Speaker 2: wait times are, especially if we've got your these abortions
23:00
Speaker 2: laws and plays like all of these things, that.
23:02
Speaker 3: That timing really really matters, absolutely so This actually comes
23:08
Speaker 3: up in the piece too. If you're trying to get pregnant,
23:10
Speaker 3: there's what's known as the two week wait, which is
23:12
Speaker 3: the time between ovulation and either the sart of your
23:15
Speaker 3: period or the confirmation of your pregnancy. And so the
23:18
Speaker 3: journalist spoke to people who were trying to get pregnant
23:19
Speaker 3: who would put their symptoms into chat sheet bt to
23:22
Speaker 3: get a sense of like whether or not they more
23:24
Speaker 3: align with pregnancy or starting your period, and they would
23:29
Speaker 3: actually change up their behavior based on whatever chatget bt said.
23:32
Speaker 3: And that this person lives in a rural part of
23:35
Speaker 3: Michigan where she said, like, oh, it takes it might
23:37
Speaker 3: take six months to even see a doctor, and so
23:41
Speaker 3: chatgebt is just more accessible in this time sensitive use
23:46
Speaker 3: case where it's like, you know, what's going to happen
23:48
Speaker 3: in these next few days really matters.
23:51
Speaker 1: Chatgebt is right there and accessible.
23:53
Speaker 3: It might take six months of waiting to actually see
23:56
Speaker 3: a doctor in real life, and so again a lot
23:58
Speaker 3: of this does come down to the need to combat
24:01
Speaker 3: accessibility issues for rural communities. So maybe you can't always
24:05
Speaker 3: get to a doctor, or anybody who might not be
24:07
Speaker 3: able to get to a doctor in a timely way
24:09
Speaker 3: in real life.
24:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, and going back to the amount of time a
24:13
Speaker 2: physician might be able to spend with you recently, when
24:17
Speaker 2: I was going when I was in the hospital, I
24:21
Speaker 2: was shocked at how short of the time it was.
24:23
Speaker 2: And I know they were busy, but I was like,
24:25
Speaker 2: I didn't even get to finish like talking about what's
24:28
Speaker 2: going on here, and you've moved on, and afterwards I
24:33
Speaker 2: was kind of left with this sensation of I really
24:35
Speaker 2: just want to talk to someone about this. And that
24:40
Speaker 2: is something people have reported as well, right.
24:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I know how that feels.
24:46
Speaker 3: Like my dad before his death was quite ill, and
24:49
Speaker 3: so I was the person who was like in the
24:51
Speaker 3: hospital with him and he was hospitalized for like a
24:53
Speaker 3: very long time and essentially how.
24:57
Speaker 1: It worked for in this hospital anyway, and then they
24:59
Speaker 1: were great.
25:00
Speaker 3: Don't want to I don't want to disparage them, but
25:01
Speaker 3: like the nurses were always there and they were wonderful.
25:05
Speaker 3: The team of doctors working with him would do their
25:07
Speaker 3: rounds and so they would come by once a day,
25:10
Speaker 3: usually in the morning, and like take a look at him.
25:13
Speaker 1: And I kind of got the got the.
25:15
Speaker 3: M with like any to be in the room if
25:17
Speaker 3: I have questions and my father was very very ill,
25:21
Speaker 3: and they would they would spend like maybe ten minutes.
25:24
Speaker 3: Now I know people doc their doctors, they have a
25:27
Speaker 3: whole hospital of sick people to see that they're who's
25:30
Speaker 3: lives they are trying to save. So I'm not I'm
25:31
Speaker 3: not belittling them, but it's it's this weird situation where
25:35
Speaker 3: like even if they spent two.
25:37
Speaker 1: Hours with me, that would not have been enough time.
25:39
Speaker 3: Like like it's an emotional thing where like nothing they
25:42
Speaker 3: could have done was going to be good enough, because
25:44
Speaker 3: it's like, this is my opportunity to ask every question
25:46
Speaker 3: I want and like I want you to fix my dad,
25:48
Speaker 3: and you just come in with this like expectation that
25:52
Speaker 3: no human doctor could meet, even a doctor with all
25:55
Speaker 3: the time in the world, but especially a doctor who
25:58
Speaker 3: has a million patients to see and they're they're trying
26:01
Speaker 3: to save everybody's life, right like, And so I can
26:04
Speaker 3: understand how AI would just create a different emotional dynamic
26:08
Speaker 3: because it's it's true.
26:09
Speaker 1: I mean, like human doctors don't have a ton of time.
26:12
Speaker 3: They don't they don't get to spend a lot of
26:13
Speaker 3: time with you, and the a matter of and I
26:15
Speaker 3: guess I would say that like there is not and
26:17
Speaker 3: there is not an amount of time that would feel
26:19
Speaker 3: like enough time when you are a loved.
26:20
Speaker 1: One is unwell.
26:24
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot too about how you know
26:26
Speaker 4: we have a rotation of doctors too, that you have
26:29
Speaker 4: to constantly repeat yourself so you never get the new
26:33
Speaker 4: question out anyway, which I like. I know people who recently,
26:37
Speaker 4: my father and my mother we had a whole like
26:40
Speaker 4: six months today where they just kept going in and
26:41
Speaker 4: out of the house, but like what.
26:42
Speaker 1: Are we doing here?
26:43
Speaker 4: But when we would be there for more than a
26:45
Speaker 4: day or so, the fact that we had to like
26:47
Speaker 4: go around and get a new a doctor or a
26:50
Speaker 4: new and we know they have to go home, we
26:52
Speaker 4: want them to be rested, but the frustration of having
26:55
Speaker 4: to repeat the same things over and over again and
26:58
Speaker 4: feeling like no one's listening when you're like, no, but
27:01
Speaker 4: this is a really big concern and y'all not addressing it. Instead,
27:03
Speaker 4: you're just looking at test results and not talking to us.
27:06
Speaker 1: So what do we do here? I will be here
27:09
Speaker 1: all day. Well, let me just say, like I know
27:12
Speaker 1: exactly how you feel.
27:14
Speaker 3: When my dad was hospitalized for a big chunk of that,
27:16
Speaker 3: he was nonverbal, and so the only way that information
27:21
Speaker 3: can be communicated was me saying it and.
27:24
Speaker 1: Again, doctors should get to go home. I want them rested,
27:28
Speaker 1: all of that.
27:29
Speaker 3: But one of the things that made it very frustrating
27:31
Speaker 3: for me was having to explain what was like a
27:34
Speaker 3: very traumatic situation multiple times a day to multiple people,
27:38
Speaker 3: multiple specialists.
27:42
Speaker 1: It was like, yes, I'll just say yes, and it
27:45
Speaker 1: really sucks, really and it's frustrating.
27:48
Speaker 3: On top of the fact that you're like you're already
27:50
Speaker 3: having a bad time, and it's like feeling like you
27:53
Speaker 3: need to repeat yourself over and over and over again,
27:55
Speaker 3: which you do. They need the information, they need to
27:57
Speaker 3: hear the story a million times to understand, but yeah,
28:01
Speaker 3: it does in those situations. It does not surprise me
28:04
Speaker 3: that people would turn to AI when that feels so frustrating.
28:10
Speaker 4: Right, and again, it kind of comes back to that
28:13
Speaker 4: whole level of trying to find someone who can be
28:17
Speaker 4: empathetic at a time of such deep anxiety and stress.
28:22
Speaker 4: There's so much in this conversation when we talk about
28:27
Speaker 4: bedside manner. I mean, that's definitely one of those big
28:30
Speaker 4: conversations that comes up a lot. I've seen tiktoks about
28:33
Speaker 4: it repeatedly about doctors and like people going after healthy
28:37
Speaker 4: and professionals, not because they're not doing their job, but
28:39
Speaker 4: because of the lack of empathy. It feels like even
28:42
Speaker 4: though it's professionalism to be one thing for another, Like
28:44
Speaker 4: there's this level of like needing someone to understand you
28:48
Speaker 4: and that anxiety instead of just being dismissive of you
28:51
Speaker 4: in so many ways, right, I can only imagine, especially
28:53
Speaker 4: with pregnancy in general, the level of anxiety all the
28:58
Speaker 4: like all of the horror stories, like I have chosen
29:00
Speaker 4: to not have a child. One of the conversations that
29:03
Speaker 4: was because I don't know my body well enough to
29:05
Speaker 4: understand if I did try and something would go wrong,
29:09
Speaker 4: how would I handle this? You know? And there's so
29:13
Speaker 4: much to this in that level of again, like with
29:15
Speaker 4: pregnant people trying to find people to understand that fear
29:18
Speaker 4: and especially if it does happen, if something does happen
29:21
Speaker 4: where you lose something that you were so excited about,
29:24
Speaker 4: that level like in trying to figure out how to
29:28
Speaker 4: get someone to hear you and understand you and at
29:30
Speaker 4: least give you good advice, like not just be like
29:33
Speaker 4: I'm so sorry for your loss and walk away, you
29:35
Speaker 4: know what I mean.
29:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, And one of the way the article doesn't really
29:40
Speaker 3: get into this, but when I was doing research, I
29:42
Speaker 3: did find there's a subreddit called the Pregnancy after Loss
29:46
Speaker 3: subreddit where so many people self report chat GPT doing
29:52
Speaker 3: exactly that, just being the empathetic ear that they can
29:56
Speaker 3: unload on. You know, these are people who have a
29:59
Speaker 3: lot of understand toable anxieties about pregnancy after experiencing a
30:02
Speaker 3: pregnancy loss, and chat Schipt has become like a trusted
30:06
Speaker 3: that that trusted empathetic ear. One editor wrote, I used
30:09
Speaker 3: it like a journal that talks back with my anxiety
30:12
Speaker 3: about loss, and I have found it so helpful. I
30:15
Speaker 3: needed to talk so much about the anxiety I was feeling,
30:18
Speaker 3: more than I could ask my husband or friends to
30:20
Speaker 3: listen to. And it was such a help to be
30:21
Speaker 3: able to unload the chat Scheept as much as I needed.
30:24
Speaker 3: And I think that's exactly what you're talking about, this
30:27
Speaker 3: feeling of you know, it's it's good to have a
30:30
Speaker 3: community when you're going through anything, pregnancy or any other
30:33
Speaker 3: kind of tough medical thing. But I understand the feeling
30:38
Speaker 3: of I've been venting to my friends to my husband,
30:41
Speaker 3: to my doctor, so much. But I have so much
30:44
Speaker 3: to say. I need to say things out loud. I
30:46
Speaker 3: need to process the way I'm feeling. I need somebody
30:48
Speaker 3: to talk back to me and I It kind of
30:52
Speaker 3: breaks my heart, but I get it that people feel
30:55
Speaker 3: like the humans in their life, the humans and their community,
30:57
Speaker 3: they have so much that they cannot ask the humans
31:00
Speaker 3: to hold all of it and so on the one hand,
31:04
Speaker 3: that makes me sad, But on the other hand, I'm
31:07
Speaker 3: happy they have resources. Like I wouldn't say, you know,
31:10
Speaker 3: you shouldn't be using chat SHEETBT for this if you
31:12
Speaker 3: feel like that is genuinely helping you process in a
31:16
Speaker 3: way that you need because we all, we all need
31:18
Speaker 3: to to get it out, you know, let it out.
31:21
Speaker 1: I don't like that.
31:22
Speaker 3: I don't like the idea that you could be, that
31:25
Speaker 3: you could be too much for your community, have too
31:27
Speaker 3: much inside. But I understand it because like, nobody wants
31:30
Speaker 3: to be that friend that like is like always wanting
31:33
Speaker 3: to vent at you. It's it's it's it's you know
31:34
Speaker 3: what I'm saying. I don't really have the answer, but
31:36
Speaker 3: I get.
31:37
Speaker 4: Being I think if you've been friends with women long enough,
31:41
Speaker 4: especially in an era where many of them were so
31:45
Speaker 4: excited to be a mother, to have a child. I mean,
31:49
Speaker 4: I've had many a friends, even really young, like getting
31:52
Speaker 4: pregnant and having what is a common miscarriage, and you know,
31:55
Speaker 4: we we've talked about this as we need to normalize
31:57
Speaker 4: it and have conversation, but that's still a loss. That's
32:00
Speaker 4: still a loss to so many people who can get pregnant.
32:03
Speaker 4: And I think that's one of the things that we
32:05
Speaker 4: kind of forget in this normalizing that it's still personal
32:08
Speaker 4: for a lot of people that for some we need
32:11
Speaker 4: to normalize it in that like this does not be criminalized,
32:15
Speaker 4: but again, it's still a moment where there was especially
32:19
Speaker 4: for those who had long term plans and have been
32:21
Speaker 4: trying and really have fertility issues, are like questions about
32:25
Speaker 4: that and it's so excited about it, and like losing
32:29
Speaker 4: what they thought would be a new part of their
32:31
Speaker 4: family at like six weeks old is traumatic. It's a
32:35
Speaker 4: traumatic moment, even though people will say it's common. And
32:38
Speaker 4: I think being able to actually have something that understands
32:42
Speaker 4: loss in that way instead of hearing just like, oh,
32:45
Speaker 4: it's okay, it's not your fault, which we it's true
32:48
Speaker 4: it's not your fault. It is common that's not necessarily
32:50
Speaker 4: what it's going to help at that moment. And as
32:52
Speaker 4: good intended as all of us are, including therapists, social workers,
32:55
Speaker 4: all that that sometimes without knowing with you saying those things,
33:01
Speaker 4: without knowing that that's not the right thing, and having
33:04
Speaker 4: maybe chat gpt with the way you were to understand
33:06
Speaker 4: a little more of what you need. That that can
33:09
Speaker 4: make a lot of sense as to why a lot
33:11
Speaker 4: of people who get pregnant or who has had a
33:13
Speaker 4: pregnancy loss would have turned to that to want to
33:15
Speaker 4: be able to validate some of that loss again, to
33:18
Speaker 4: go through that. Again, why subreddits and reddits were so important,
33:21
Speaker 4: why message boards can be so important. It is that level.
33:24
Speaker 4: But again, humans error, they err on the side of
33:28
Speaker 4: what they have gone through. So that's what they say,
33:30
Speaker 4: which could be a good bad thing, And I.
33:33
Speaker 1: Mean that's what AI is good at.
33:37
Speaker 3: Like the same the I hate to say it the
33:40
Speaker 3: thing that makes AI dangerous for somebody who is experiencing
33:44
Speaker 3: delusions because it understands what it is that you want
33:47
Speaker 3: or need to hear. That is the same thing that
33:50
Speaker 3: might make it a good place for someone to vent
33:53
Speaker 3: because it understands like what it is that you want
33:56
Speaker 3: or need to hear, And it's good at spitting that
33:58
Speaker 3: back out at you. And there are use cases where
34:01
Speaker 3: that might be a good thing, if you need reassurance,
34:03
Speaker 3: if you need just something.
34:06
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say someone because.
34:08
Speaker 3: I have a bad habit of answerpomorphizing, which is also
34:10
Speaker 3: a word I cannot pronounce.
34:12
Speaker 1: I have to say a lot of my work, and
34:14
Speaker 1: I can make a word never tried. Yeah, I've never tried.
34:19
Speaker 3: Let's just don't rewind and break down how I said it.
34:22
Speaker 1: Let's just move on. But like, uh, you know, the
34:26
Speaker 1: thing that makes it good at understanding.
34:28
Speaker 3: AI is very good at understanding what people want and
34:30
Speaker 3: saying what people want to hear and spitting that back
34:32
Speaker 3: out at them. And so there are times when that
34:34
Speaker 3: would be useful, and there are times where that would
34:37
Speaker 3: be dangerous. And I know it sounds like what people
34:39
Speaker 3: are saying is that when you are trying to get
34:41
Speaker 3: pregnant after experiencing pregnancy loss or just going through pregnancy loss,
34:45
Speaker 3: it might be a use case where it's helpful.
34:49
Speaker 2: Yes, And before we get into sort of the more
34:53
Speaker 2: negative aspect, perhaps there is an instance you have in
34:57
Speaker 2: here of it being helpful and saving someone's life.
35:02
Speaker 3: Yes, so this was wild to me asking chat cheat
35:06
Speaker 3: Betea might have actually saved a pregnant woman's life. A
35:09
Speaker 3: woman in her third trimester felt a tightness in her
35:12
Speaker 3: jaw before she went to bed, and almost just for
35:15
Speaker 3: a lark, she asked chat cheat Beta in this casual way,
35:19
Speaker 3: why does my jaw feel tight?
35:20
Speaker 1: Chatcheat BT was like, check your blood pressure? And then
35:23
Speaker 1: she did and she was like, oh, my blood pressure
35:25
Speaker 1: is very high, and within thirty minutes, chat cheat Bete
35:28
Speaker 1: was urging her to call an ambulance. She did.
35:31
Speaker 3: She went to the hospital. Her blood pressure had climbed
35:33
Speaker 3: to two hundred over one forty six. Doctors were like,
35:37
Speaker 3: we need to deliver your baby now, and she had
35:40
Speaker 3: what to start with, the pre preclamsy of I think
35:42
Speaker 3: that's what it's called, like high blood pressure and doctor
35:46
Speaker 3: said that had she gone to sleep that night, she
35:48
Speaker 3: she could have died. And so chatjeet bt helped her
35:53
Speaker 3: make the decision to take this seriously and was like
35:56
Speaker 3: the deciding factor deciding to call an ambulance.
35:59
Speaker 1: Importantly, chat gpt did not diagnose her.
36:03
Speaker 3: It helped her make the decision to call an ambulance
36:06
Speaker 3: where human doctors at the hospital diagnosed her and saved
36:09
Speaker 3: her life. And so I want to say that because
36:12
Speaker 3: I don't want someone to hear chat GPT can diagnose
36:16
Speaker 3: me with something. I think the better way to think
36:18
Speaker 3: about it is chat GPT can help me get the
36:21
Speaker 3: information to make the decision to connect with medical professionals
36:24
Speaker 3: who then can diagnose me and help save my life.
36:27
Speaker 2: Yes, which is a great distinction and something again I
36:32
Speaker 2: think a lot of us have done. Where you go online,
36:34
Speaker 2: you look up how serious is this? Sometimes it can
36:38
Speaker 2: be hard to separate from your own panic and perhaps
36:43
Speaker 2: hyperbolic reading of it, but you know, kind of getting
36:46
Speaker 2: a lay of the land of like what could this be?
36:49
Speaker 2: Should I be really concerned and then going to seek
36:53
Speaker 2: professional help if the Internet's like, oh yeah, that's really
36:56
Speaker 2: bad exactly, Yes, But that does as to some of
37:02
Speaker 2: the downsides of this whole thing.
37:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it sounds like I'm like, oh, definitely, you
37:08
Speaker 3: don't even need a doctor, y'all, You've got chat gypt.
37:11
Speaker 1: That is not what I'm saying.
37:12
Speaker 3: So let's pump the brakes, because using chat GPT for
37:15
Speaker 3: pregnancy advice is not without risk.
37:18
Speaker 1: First of all.
37:19
Speaker 3: As I said, AI is notorious for spitting out misinformation
37:23
Speaker 3: what's called the hallucinations, which is just flat out incorrect
37:26
Speaker 3: information stated as fact. Like when I ask chat gypt
37:30
Speaker 3: about guests that I have interviewed. It told me once
37:35
Speaker 3: that one of my note I was known for having
37:38
Speaker 3: interviewed Monica Lewinsky. Monica Lewinsky is one of my White
37:42
Speaker 3: Whale podcast guests, and I must have said it on
37:44
Speaker 3: a podcast. I think somebody asked me, like, who are
37:46
Speaker 3: the two guests you would most want to interview When
37:48
Speaker 3: I think I said Monica Lewinsky and Missy Elliott, and
37:51
Speaker 3: chat gpt has like spoken this into existence.
37:54
Speaker 1: Only one problem, it never happened, But I love that
37:56
Speaker 1: it's manifesting for me.
37:58
Speaker 3: But that's a hallucination, just a flat out incorrect detail
38:02
Speaker 3: stated as.
38:03
Speaker 1: Fact, And so chatchept is notorious for that.
38:06
Speaker 3: One study last year found that fifty two percent of
38:09
Speaker 3: chatgeept's answers contained some level of misinformation or incorrect information. So,
38:14
Speaker 3: especially when you're talking about your health, that is something
38:17
Speaker 3: to really really keep in the forefront of your mind
38:21
Speaker 3: that we simply don't know if the information we're getting
38:25
Speaker 3: is accurate or not.
38:26
Speaker 1: When you're using chat Gypt.
38:28
Speaker 3: And the second is what we talked about the last
38:30
Speaker 3: time we all were hanging out, which is privacy. I
38:33
Speaker 3: think Annie you alluded to this given how surveiled pregnancy
38:38
Speaker 3: is right now in the United States and how criminalized
38:40
Speaker 3: pregnancy is in the United States. That you know, we've
38:43
Speaker 3: had reports of women being criminalized for miscarriage and pregnancy loss.
38:48
Speaker 3: That is something to keep in mind if you are
38:50
Speaker 3: using chat ept as a place to ask medical questions.
38:55
Speaker 3: My opinion is that they are not so like I
38:56
Speaker 3: wouldn't trust CHATTYBT with anything that is sensitive or in
39:00
Speaker 3: him about myself.
39:01
Speaker 4: So we know that I believe they have They're one
39:05
Speaker 4: of the companies that may have a contract with the government.
39:07
Speaker 1: So that's correct. We need anything like that.
39:10
Speaker 4: It should be recognized immediately as Yeah, this is not
39:14
Speaker 4: going to good for privacy.
39:16
Speaker 1: Yeah.
39:16
Speaker 3: I mean, I personally do not trust open AI. I
39:19
Speaker 3: don't trust the way they move, I don't trust their leadership.
39:23
Speaker 3: I don't when they say things in public, it makes it.
39:25
Speaker 3: It sets off a million warning bells for me, the
39:27
Speaker 3: way that they move, and so even the stuff that
39:30
Speaker 3: they have said in public, I have a heart.
39:32
Speaker 1: It's I just don't trust.
39:34
Speaker 3: It's a company I don't trust, and so it does
39:36
Speaker 3: suck that when people think about AI, the first company
39:41
Speaker 3: they usually think of is open Ai because they're thinking
39:43
Speaker 3: about chatsh EPT and they definitely take up this like
39:46
Speaker 3: large footprint in the AI landscape, and they are not
39:49
Speaker 3: a company that I would say I trust, and I'll
39:53
Speaker 3: just leave it at that, like they really I could
39:56
Speaker 3: talk a lot about this, and a lot of it
39:58
Speaker 3: A lot of it is they have said publicly and
40:01
Speaker 3: also just like what I glean from the way that
40:03
Speaker 3: they move publicly, So.
40:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, And also other people have spoken out about
40:10
Speaker 2: the concerns around privacy correct.
40:13
Speaker 3: So in the article, the journalist spoke to Tom Subach,
40:16
Speaker 3: who is the founder of the Reimagination Lab and the
40:19
Speaker 3: former chief strategy officer at Planned Parenthood, who said that
40:22
Speaker 3: there are very real privacy risks when entrusting the details
40:24
Speaker 3: of your reproductive health to chat YOUBT. Subec says, could
40:28
Speaker 3: the data be used by a hostile prosecutor who is
40:30
Speaker 3: going on a fishing expedition for women who have had miscarriages? Absolutely,
40:34
Speaker 3: as is the case with almost any free online platform,
40:37
Speaker 3: you are trading some level of your anonymity and most
40:39
Speaker 3: personal health details for use of that app. So just
40:44
Speaker 3: another thing to keep in mind, you know.
40:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And as we've discussed multiple times on the show,
40:51
Speaker 2: it's really unfortunate because we do live in this online
40:56
Speaker 2: space and a lot of these these free programs that
41:02
Speaker 2: so many of us use have those huge contracts that
41:05
Speaker 2: you were like, yes, I agree. Uh. And also sometimes
41:09
Speaker 2: I try not to do this anymore, but there was
41:11
Speaker 2: a time when it was like, do you just want
41:13
Speaker 2: to use your Google email just to sign in and
41:16
Speaker 2: you can get this out article? And I was like, yeah, sure.
41:20
Speaker 2: And now I look back and I'm like, oh, yeah,
41:22
Speaker 2: they were definitely getting a lot of my data, and
41:25
Speaker 2: I was just training the ease of doing that versus
41:30
Speaker 2: the reality of what of what it would cost.
41:35
Speaker 1: Yeah.
41:36
Speaker 3: I think that you really put that so well because
41:39
Speaker 3: I think that is the dance that we're all navigating.
41:43
Speaker 1: I think that.
41:45
Speaker 3: We all need to understand the trade offs that we
41:48
Speaker 3: make for convenience and that and really in a deep
41:53
Speaker 3: way ask ourselves is it worth it?
41:56
Speaker 1: Are we getting something that is worth what we are losing?
42:00
Speaker 3: And I I was the same way, like I probably
42:03
Speaker 3: had some of the worst digital hygiene practices of anybody
42:06
Speaker 3: I know in the early days of the internet, because
42:08
Speaker 3: I was just thinking, like, I mean, remember when Facebook
42:11
Speaker 3: came to your college, Like it was like it was excitement.
42:14
Speaker 3: I could not conceptualize that this could have a negative outcome.
42:20
Speaker 1: I just like I wasn't there yet.
42:22
Speaker 3: And one of the reasons I care so deeply about
42:25
Speaker 3: this is that I think back to that and I'm like,
42:27
Speaker 3: I was misled, I was lied to, I was hoodwinked,
42:29
Speaker 3: and like, I gave away so much without even asking,
42:33
Speaker 3: because I wanted to put pictures of our nights out
42:35
Speaker 3: on the internet easily, right, Like I gave up so
42:38
Speaker 3: much without even asking the question. And that's one of
42:41
Speaker 3: the reasons why this is like a hill I will
42:43
Speaker 3: die on that we should at least be asking the question,
42:46
Speaker 3: is this trade off worth it? Is what I am
42:48
Speaker 3: getting in return from these tech companies benefiting me enough
42:51
Speaker 3: to make trading away these these intimate things about my body,
42:57
Speaker 3: my relationships, my life, the things that make us human,
43:01
Speaker 3: isn't worth it?
43:02
Speaker 1: Like that really is the question.
43:14
Speaker 2: It's very fascinating to be in this part of the
43:18
Speaker 2: timeline where we had Facebook that was so exciting. It's
43:20
Speaker 2: so new and now we have chat GPT, which feels
43:26
Speaker 2: like a whole different beast in a way, but it
43:28
Speaker 2: does have that same vibe of like, what is this
43:30
Speaker 2: going to be? What can I learn from it?
43:33
Speaker 1: What can I ask for it?
43:34
Speaker 2: What is the good and the bad? And that is
43:37
Speaker 2: something that we are we're still wrestling with even within
43:41
Speaker 2: this question that's right.
43:43
Speaker 3: So I took a lott So after reading this article
43:45
Speaker 3: that Susie posted on to me on Blue Sky, I
43:50
Speaker 3: was like, okay, so this is what people are using
43:52
Speaker 3: chat cept for pregnancy and fertility information.
43:55
Speaker 1: Got it, But then I was like, is this a
43:57
Speaker 1: good thing? Like again, I mean I have I.
44:00
Speaker 3: Feel like I wrestled with this in the conversation that
44:02
Speaker 3: we've had today of like it's I'm happy that people
44:05
Speaker 3: have a platform that offers them a resource that they
44:07
Speaker 3: self report helps them out, but is this a good
44:10
Speaker 3: thing long term? So I took a look at an
44:12
Speaker 3: article called chat JAPT a Reliable Fertility Decision Making Tool
44:15
Speaker 3: in the Journal of Human Reproduction. The authors we're wrestling
44:19
Speaker 3: with the question that you know, yes, people are saying
44:22
Speaker 3: that they feel more empowered by using chat GPT on
44:25
Speaker 3: their pregnancy journey but is that a good thing? And
44:27
Speaker 3: basically they found exactly what you might expect that compared
44:30
Speaker 3: to just googling stuff randomly.
44:33
Speaker 1: Yes, it is better.
44:34
Speaker 3: The piece says, freely available versions of generative AI are
44:38
Speaker 3: a faster and equally accurate means of gaining an answer
44:40
Speaker 3: to a straightforward question. Furthermore, the chatbot has been shown
44:44
Speaker 3: to equalize user search performance across different education levels, promoting
44:48
Speaker 3: equity of access to the broad range of health literacy
44:50
Speaker 3: capabilities that exist within the general population. So it might
44:54
Speaker 3: if you're someone who, like me, who any thing about
44:57
Speaker 3: medical stuff, it might be a way to like make
45:01
Speaker 3: that information more accessible and more equitable.
45:03
Speaker 1: That's great.
45:05
Speaker 3: But importantly they say that because we don't know what
45:08
Speaker 3: information chatgbt was trained on, and arguments around falling into
45:13
Speaker 3: the hype of chatgebt, healthcare providers should be using this
45:17
Speaker 3: information to invest in the generation of their own models
45:20
Speaker 3: using the emerging technology and trusted data, a sentiment the
45:23
Speaker 3: authors of that article strongly support, which I support too.
45:27
Speaker 1: I think that makes sense.
45:27
Speaker 3: I think that the idea of oh well, healthcare and
45:31
Speaker 3: health information is inaccessible for people, so they're just going
45:35
Speaker 3: on chat GPT.
45:36
Speaker 1: That's fine.
45:37
Speaker 3: I think that the next step should be so actual
45:41
Speaker 3: medical professionals should be making their own models to give
45:46
Speaker 3: people access to health information that is accurate in a
45:49
Speaker 3: way that is more accessible. They should be learning from
45:51
Speaker 3: the fact that people are turning to chat sheatpt, not
45:54
Speaker 3: just having that be the outcome like, Okay, they're getting
45:58
Speaker 3: what they need, because I actually don't think they're getting
46:00
Speaker 3: what they need.
46:01
Speaker 1: They need actual medical information that they can trust.
46:06
Speaker 4: I wonder how soon we'll have healthcare companies try to
46:10
Speaker 4: take that as a money making scheme.
46:12
Speaker 3: Well, I mean I can answer that question for you,
46:15
Speaker 3: which is gill me, how soon is now? Because they're
46:18
Speaker 3: doing it, that's happening.
46:19
Speaker 1: As we speak.
46:20
Speaker 4: Yeah, and what are they doing? Should I be weary?
46:24
Speaker 1: I mean, this is this is a little bit above
46:26
Speaker 1: my pay grade.
46:27
Speaker 3: But I do know that, like, like before my mom's death,
46:29
Speaker 3: she was talking about how like medical professionals.
46:32
Speaker 1: Are really using AI a lot.
46:35
Speaker 3: Like the one of the aspects of this conversation that
46:37
Speaker 3: I cut but we can talk about is how you know,
46:40
Speaker 3: we're talking about using chat shept as a way to
46:44
Speaker 3: give people information on their pregnancy journey, but AI, not chatcheapt.
46:48
Speaker 1: Other forms of AI is actually helping people to get.
46:51
Speaker 3: Pregnant in a literal way as well, because doctors at
46:53
Speaker 3: Columbia they reported what they were calling the first pregnancy
46:57
Speaker 3: using AI, using this new AI so to help with
47:02
Speaker 3: low sperm count. And so apparently male fertility challenges account
47:06
Speaker 3: for forty percent of infertility in the US, and specifically
47:09
Speaker 3: low sperm count is responsible for ten percent of those cases.
47:12
Speaker 3: And it used to be that if that was the problem,
47:14
Speaker 3: there was not much that they could do. But they
47:16
Speaker 3: had this new AI procedure called Star Sperm Track and Recovery,
47:21
Speaker 3: where doctors used an AI algorithm to detect sperm using
47:25
Speaker 3: a fluidic chip that passed the semen sample through a
47:29
Speaker 3: tiny tube on a plastic chip. And if AI detected sperm,
47:33
Speaker 3: even a teeny tiny amount, they could use that AI
47:37
Speaker 3: detection to collect it and actually fertilize an egg. And
47:40
Speaker 3: a couple that had been trying to conceive for a
47:43
Speaker 3: very long time was able to actually conceive a child
47:46
Speaker 3: using this AI model. And so I don't want to
47:49
Speaker 3: make it seem like the intersection of AI and pregnancy
47:54
Speaker 3: is all super sketchy, because they it sounds like they
47:58
Speaker 3: are using it in some ways that are that are interesting,
48:01
Speaker 3: but I just know that when it comes to health
48:05
Speaker 3: information and technology, not every actor out there is a
48:09
Speaker 3: good actor, and it just makes me concerned.
48:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do have concerns.
48:16
Speaker 2: That is a lot to take in. Glad that you
48:20
Speaker 2: shared it. I had not heard of that, but wow,
48:24
Speaker 2: I mean I'm happy it's helping people. It just sounds
48:26
Speaker 2: so futuristic.
48:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, the future is now.
48:30
Speaker 2: The future is now, And you know this isn't the
48:34
Speaker 2: same thing as AI, but I have experienced something along
48:41
Speaker 2: the lines of I'm trying to get help for whatever,
48:45
Speaker 2: and it's always like, have you talked to our chatbot?
48:47
Speaker 2: Have you talked to our chatbot? And the chatbot is
48:51
Speaker 2: not helping me out. It's just like have you tried
48:55
Speaker 2: looking on the internet of like yes. So you know
49:01
Speaker 2: that there are ways we can move forward and improve
49:06
Speaker 2: and there are still some things that we need to
49:08
Speaker 2: worry about when it comes to integrating this kind of
49:11
Speaker 2: technology in a medical space exactly. And that study I
49:15
Speaker 2: was referencing in the Journal of Human Reproduction really makes
49:18
Speaker 2: this clear. They said that we need to be aware
49:20
Speaker 2: of and tackle the common ethical concerns about AI, including privacy, trust, accountability,
49:25
Speaker 2: and responsibility and bias, and that healthcare professionals have an
49:29
Speaker 2: edge here when compared to chat TPT because their training
49:32
Speaker 2: and practice makes them well versed in the delivery of
49:34
Speaker 2: best practice care something reserved for sentient beings at least
49:38
Speaker 2: for now, right, And so.
49:41
Speaker 1: It does seem true that humans might have the edge
49:44
Speaker 1: on this one, and that.
49:45
Speaker 3: We I don't think that we should be replacing human
49:49
Speaker 3: doctors or humans in anything when it comes to AI, Like, ultimately,
49:54
Speaker 3: you don't want to explain your problems to a chatbot.
49:57
Speaker 3: There needs to be a human in the mix there somewhere.
50:00
Speaker 3: As you said, Annie, you don't want to trust a
50:02
Speaker 3: chatbot when you're really in the thick of it. I
50:05
Speaker 3: think people don't want to be going back and forth
50:07
Speaker 3: with what they know with a chatbot.
50:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's frustrating and not fun, but it is as
50:20
Speaker 2: you have made the point throughout this, clearly, there is
50:25
Speaker 2: an interest in it, and there is a value in
50:28
Speaker 2: it in terms of how we can perhaps build something better,
50:34
Speaker 2: and it is something that is impacting us all, whether
50:37
Speaker 2: we want it to or not.
50:39
Speaker 1: That is expertly put.
50:41
Speaker 3: I would say, like the bottom line is that we
50:44
Speaker 3: are navigating how AI is changing these foundational things of
50:48
Speaker 3: what it means to be human, and that includes pregnancy
50:51
Speaker 3: and childbirth, and so we've got to go into it
50:53
Speaker 3: with a clear understanding of the ethical, safety, privacy, environmental bias,
51:01
Speaker 3: like all of these different risks that come with the
51:04
Speaker 3: way that AI is changing this. We should really really
51:07
Speaker 3: be grappling with that instead of just getting lost in
51:09
Speaker 3: AI hype that this is going to be automatically good
51:12
Speaker 3: for everybody and this is the future, right, So I
51:15
Speaker 3: think as long as we're proceeding with a clear understanding
51:18
Speaker 3: of that like that, like that is the way to
51:20
Speaker 3: go forward in the future in my opinion.
51:24
Speaker 2: Yes, agreed, and thank you so much for tackling this.
51:29
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to Susie to Go for suggesting it.
51:35
Speaker 2: We always love talking to you, Bridget. Where can the
51:37
Speaker 2: good listeners find you?
51:39
Speaker 3: Well, you can find me at my podcast all about
51:41
Speaker 3: the intersection of tech and identity and social media. So
51:44
Speaker 3: if you want to have more conversations like this, check
51:46
Speaker 3: us out. You can find me on Instagram at Bridget
51:49
Speaker 3: Marine DC. You can find me on TikTok at Bridget
51:52
Speaker 3: Marine DC. You can find me on YouTube. And there
51:54
Speaker 3: are no girls on the Internet yeah, hang out with me.
51:58
Speaker 3: That's sound empathetic, but you know what I mean, it's
52:02
Speaker 3: not pathetic.
52:03
Speaker 2: Bridgett is lovely and I.
52:04
Speaker 4: Would love to hang out with you.
52:06
Speaker 2: We always yeah, I'd love to hang out with you.
52:08
Speaker 1: Oh, the pleasure is always all mine.
52:12
Speaker 2: Well, until next time, listeners, go check out all of
52:15
Speaker 2: that stuff. If you haven't already, If you would like
52:17
Speaker 2: to contact us, you can or email us hello at
52:19
Speaker 2: stuff Whenever Told You dot com. You can find us
52:21
Speaker 2: on Blue Sky on Stuff podcast or on Instagram and
52:23
Speaker 2: TikTok at stuff when the Never Told You for us
52:25
Speaker 2: on YouTube, and we have a book you can get
52:27
Speaker 2: wherever you get your books. Thanks, it's always to our
52:29
Speaker 2: super just because senior executive preuser My and your contributor Joey.
52:32
Speaker 2: Thank you and thanks you for listening. Stuff Never Told
52:34
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