Transcript

Jared Polis, WTF?! · Politix

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Democrats exist in politics,
0:02
SPEAKER_00: not just vis-a-vis voters or vis-a-vis the factions within the party.
0:06
They have an opposition that's actually trying to render them
0:09
like a political nullity,
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right?
0:11
SPEAKER_00: Like there will still be a Democratic Party,
0:13
SPEAKER_00: but they will be unable to win elections anywhere,
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SPEAKER_00: really.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, I don't think that's true at all.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't think there will still be a Democratic Party.
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I think there's like a very real chance that we're going to be
0:22
in like an actual
0:23
oppressive authoritarian regime that throws opposition members
0:27
out of helicopters.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: Like I...
0:33
Hey everyone,
0:34
you're listening to a free preview of the Politics Podcast.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: Donald Trump is more unpopular than he's ever been.
0:40
The events he set in motion here and around the world seem
0:43
destined to make him
0:44
SPEAKER_00: even more unpopular than he already is.
0:47
And that's before we know how badly he let Ebola spread
0:50
uncontrolled in Uganda and
0:52
SPEAKER_00: the Democratic Republic of Congo.
0:55
But he's still got a tight grip on the GOP and he keeps making
0:59
progress on his plan
1:01
SPEAKER_00: to subvert the 2026 midterm elections.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: He just ended the career of Senator Bill Cassidy in Louisiana,
1:08
established a slush fund to pay off violent insurrectionists
1:12
and somehow seems to
1:13
have convinced the Democratic governor of Colorado to grant
1:16
clemency to one of
1:17
SPEAKER_00: Trump's 2020 co-conspirators.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: So we'll try to make sense of all of that this week.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: If you'd like to hear the whole conversation,
1:24
SPEAKER_00: you can upgrade your subscription to paid at politics.fm.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the Politics Podcast.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm Brian Boyler.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm Matthew Iglesias.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: So we should celebrate the great new New York Times poll findings,
1:42
SPEAKER_00: and also we should celebrate the out-of-control spread of Ebola,
1:45
SPEAKER_00: I think,
1:46
SPEAKER_00: throughout the world,
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SPEAKER_00: at least insofar as it might make Donald Trump less popular.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, we don't want anyone to get hurt.
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But when we put That just seems all a little overstated about
1:57
the Ebola I just want
1:58
to say I am hoping to avoid uncontrolled spread of Ebola I'm
2:03
also not totally sure
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SPEAKER_00: that's what's happening Actually,
2:05
SPEAKER_00: no,
2:05
there is a more I was being foolishly glib But it is a reminder
2:12
that all this stuff
2:13
about how it's important for Donald Trump and the people who
2:17
voted for him to
2:18
SPEAKER_00: experience the hot stove touching,
2:20
SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: You have to balance the schadenfreude because when Donald Trump
2:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm for hot stove touching.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: I am not for like thousands of people dying in Central Africa,
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which I don't really think is going to like actually punish the
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Maga base.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: Ituri province and the DRC is like,
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SPEAKER_01: we can do a lot of harm over there without it blowing back on drugs.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: Well,
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also like I was thinking more like the people who live there
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who are now struggling
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SPEAKER_00: through this.
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Bear no responsibility for what's happening in the United
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States of America.
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SPEAKER_00: And like,
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SPEAKER_00: ideally,
2:58
the stove touching and the people who get burned are all
3:02
deserving in some way.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's Trump.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: Closely linked.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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The people who voted for him,
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especially the ones who voted for him three times.
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SPEAKER_00: It's very hard to like make that perfect kind of hot stove.
3:14
But when we were putting the outline together,
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we decided we should cover not Ebola,
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but...
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SPEAKER_00: But sort of things that,
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SPEAKER_00: it's weird,
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they're like Trump consolidating power even as he's clearly
3:29
losing political
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SPEAKER_00: ground,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: Like we said we would cover Jared Polis pardoning Tina Peters,
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SPEAKER_00: which is something that Trump has been insisting.
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SPEAKER_00: He do, or I guess granting her clemency, we should say, to be accurate.
3:43
The Louisiana GOP primary election,
3:44
which ended the career,
3:46
it seems,
3:46
of Senator Bill Cassidy.
3:48
And then also Trump just kind of stole $1.8 billion or is
3:52
trying to steal $1.8
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SPEAKER_00: billion from the Treasury to create a fund to pay off whoever he wants,
3:59
SPEAKER_00: presumably members of his family and also pardon insurrectionists.
4:03
And after we talked,
4:04
I was trying to thread these together as part of one story.
4:08
And the best I could come up with is like an awful lot of
4:11
authoritarian-ish shit
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SPEAKER_00: given his low ebb of popularity.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: But maybe you see it.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, what's the line in Star Wars?
4:19
That the more you tighten your grip,
4:21
the more star systems will slip through your fingers.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: There you go.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: Right?
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's something of that.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: Nature happening here.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: Because he's becoming more desperate,
4:30
SPEAKER_00: he's also becoming more authoritarian,
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SPEAKER_00: and there's still sources of weakness out there.
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SPEAKER_01: He's not moving to address his sources of political weakness.
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SPEAKER_01: He is simply moving to try to make them irrelevant, right?
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SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: and you see this most clearly in the,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: we've talked about redistricting several times,
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SPEAKER_01: but they are,
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SPEAKER_01: you know...
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SPEAKER_01: Gaining an edge in the redistricting wars that is large,
5:01
but simply not large enough to overcome their deficit in the
5:05
generic ballot,
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SPEAKER_01: which has grown since we last recorded.
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SPEAKER_01: Not grown an enormous amount, but it's gone from D plus 6 to D plus 6.6.
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SPEAKER_01: You know,
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SPEAKER_01: the districting landscape has shifted from,
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SPEAKER_01: because of Virginia and the Voting Rights Act,
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it looks like it's gone from slightly de-favoring to probably R
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plus three.
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SPEAKER_01: So in Colorado...
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SPEAKER_01: What did J.R. Polis do?
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SPEAKER_01: He is letting Tina Peters out of jail early.
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SPEAKER_01: He did a bunch of other clemency announcements along with it,
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seeking to portray this as part of a kind of comprehensive soft
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on crime ethos in
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SPEAKER_01: the waiting days of the Polis administration.
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SPEAKER_01: He let out a guy who shot a cop and permanently disabled him.
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SPEAKER_01: So...
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SPEAKER_01: I guess I sort of accept that logic,
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SPEAKER_01: that Jared Polis likes to let a lot of criminals out of prison early,
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SPEAKER_01: but that doesn't really make it a lot better.
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SPEAKER_00: I feel like the peripheral pardons,
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SPEAKER_00: the non-Tina Peters pardons,
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are kind of like the clemency equivalent of pretending to cough
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in order so that
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SPEAKER_00: people don't hear you fart.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: I don't.
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SPEAKER_00: I think that, I mean, that's what it is.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know.
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SPEAKER_01: He's been angling to,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna keep saying pardon because I'm sloppy,
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SPEAKER_00: but he commuted the remainder of this woman's sentence.
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He granted her some substantial clemency,
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even though her record as a felon isn't expunged.
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SPEAKER_00: But he's been angling to do this for months and months and months.
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SPEAKER_00: And he never showed any inkling
6:59
that this was something that he thought was right or just until
7:02
after Donald Trump
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started basically threatening to extort Colorado unless he went
7:09
and did this.
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And so you have some indication that this all stems from
7:16
corrupt pressure that
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SPEAKER_00: Trump placed on him.
7:21
And also that like I think Polis intentionally inhabits a
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milieu that includes a
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lot of people who are at some level more loyal to Trump than
7:31
him or more invested
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SPEAKER_00: in Trump's happiness and political satisfaction than in Polis's.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: And so I think in some circles,
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the idea that this woman was especially deserving of some
7:45
clemency doesn't seem
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SPEAKER_00: crazy.
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And like,
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I can imagine a world where this is not the biggest deal,
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right?
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SPEAKER_00: But in the actual context of today,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: given everything Trump is trying to do ahead of the 2026 midterms,
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given the complicity of members of the judiciary in what
8:07
appears to be like a
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SPEAKER_00: brewing coup attempt,
8:10
SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: That like, this is creates a bigger picture in which I think
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Democrats are kind of inexplicably blasé about the insurrection
8:23
threat and Trump is
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SPEAKER_00: racing towards the next insurrection as fast as he can or the next,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: attempted coup as hard as he can.
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SPEAKER_00: It's like, it's a, it was a strange decision from my perspective.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I agree that it's strange.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't really know.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know what we're going to argue about here exactly.
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SPEAKER_01: We don't need to argue.
8:47
SPEAKER_01: Some facts about Jared Polis, though, right?
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SPEAKER_01: It's just like, Jared Polis has granted a lot of
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SPEAKER_01: Clemency and Commutations over the course of his term as governor.
9:00
This has included thousands of people who were convicted for
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various forms of drug possession.
9:06
He also,
9:08
under his stewardship,
9:09
the state of Colorado has banned the death penalty.
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SPEAKER_01: Colorado is a state that used to be a red state,
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SPEAKER_01: became a purple state,
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SPEAKER_01: is now a blue-leaning state.
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SPEAKER_01: Part of that is they moved to blame the death penalty.
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Polis granted the statutory action to end the death penalty in
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Colorado did not
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include automatic clemency for people who had already been
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sentenced to be
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SPEAKER_01: executed.
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SPEAKER_01: But Polis,
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SPEAKER_01: through an act of executive discretion,
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has granted commutations to three individuals who were
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sentenced to death in
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SPEAKER_01: Colorado,
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SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
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SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
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SPEAKER_01: He normally does these clemency actions regularly.
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In December,
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you know,
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it's kind of a Christmas mercy,
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something like that.
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SPEAKER_01: He's Jewish, I guess, year end thing.
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SPEAKER_01: He did not do that in 2026, right?
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SPEAKER_01: Because he knew that this Tina Peters question was on his desk.
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SPEAKER_01: And so he,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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he deferred the entire annual set of Jared Polis Acts of Mercy
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until he decided
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SPEAKER_01: what he wanted to do with Peters.
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SPEAKER_01: The
10:13
SPEAKER_01: Final,
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there's a Mother Jones article is the only thing I've seen from
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a left of center
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SPEAKER_01: person to make the case for what Polis did.
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SPEAKER_01: Mother Jones is a way more left wing magazine than I am.
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SPEAKER_01: The author of this piece.
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SPEAKER_00: You're not even a left wing magazine of any kind.
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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The author of this piece seems to generally approve of Jared
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Polis's general
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SPEAKER_01: tendency to be soft on crime.
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SPEAKER_01: They praise him for letting out this guy who shot the cop.
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SPEAKER_01: And the point that this article raises,
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SPEAKER_01: which was new to me,
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SPEAKER_01: although I don't think it actually cuts in favor of what Paulus did,
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SPEAKER_01: but is factually relevant,
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is that an appeals court had ruled that Peters' sentence was
10:56
improper and that the
10:58
SPEAKER_01: sentencing judge had taken into account statements Peters made.
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SPEAKER_01: The judge interpreted Peters' statements as indicating a lack of remorse.
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SPEAKER_01: which is an aggravating consideration in the sentencing.
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SPEAKER_01: The appeals court,
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SPEAKER_01: which was all,
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SPEAKER_01: I believe,
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SPEAKER_01: Hickenlooper employees,
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SPEAKER_01: said that no,
11:20
that the judge was improperly penalizing Peters for her
11:24
exercise of free speech
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SPEAKER_01: rights and that the trial court was going to need to go re-sentence her.
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SPEAKER_01: To me, that's a reason to not grant her
11:36
Clemency to just say like there's an ongoing judicial process
11:40
about this like let's
11:41
see it shake out where it shakes out under you know the law and
11:45
the American
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Constitution but in effect you know Polis is just sort of
11:51
saying her sentence
11:53
should match sentence given out for prior violations of the
11:58
statute that had not
12:00
SPEAKER_01: had this like aggravating element and
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SPEAKER_01: It seems like a bad idea.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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SPEAKER_01: Nobody really agrees with Polis except for this Mother Jones writer.
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SPEAKER_01: So, I don't know.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay, so there's other reporting around this, right?
12:20
SPEAKER_00: Okay,
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SPEAKER_00: before we get to the other reporting,
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if the appeals court tells the lower court judge you need to
12:28
revise this sentence,
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: I think that's crazy,
12:30
SPEAKER_00: right?
12:30
SPEAKER_00: Like...
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SPEAKER_00: It is clearly an aggravating factor if your crimes,
12:39
SPEAKER_00: the frauds you committed,
12:40
were pursuant to an illegal scheme to try to overturn the 2021
12:45
election or create
12:48
SPEAKER_00: doubt about the 2020 election.
12:52
And then you get caught and you basically say that your actions
12:56
were justified
12:57
SPEAKER_00: because you believe the 2020 election was stolen.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes,
13:03
that is like protected speech in the same way that like saying
13:06
that you think you
13:07
were right to steal from a corporation or shoot a health
13:11
insurance executive is
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SPEAKER_00: free speech on top of the criminal offense.
13:17
It's also something that like judges take into account all the
13:19
time when deciding
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SPEAKER_00: whether to be lenient or not.
13:22
And so the fact that this had to go back to the lower court
13:26
judge who thinks very
13:27
SPEAKER_00: lowly of Peter's character,
13:32
your suggestion is like why didn't Polis just let it like write
13:35
it out and I think
13:38
if he suspected that the judge was going to reduce her sentence
13:41
but not all the way
13:42
and Trump is leaning on him to let her out of prison
13:46
immediately or there will be
13:48
SPEAKER_00: consequences and then Polis gets in like jumps in
13:54
SPEAKER_00: to the process,
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SPEAKER_00: takes it out of the judge's hands and just lets her out of prison,
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SPEAKER_00: that that strongly indicates that he had improper motives for doing it,
14:09
SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: And in a generous read,
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SPEAKER_00: he was trying to protect Colorado from Trump's wrath,
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SPEAKER_00: but it's not like January 2025 anymore.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: And I think that the verdict on
14:23
SPEAKER_00: Governors,
14:24
SPEAKER_00: mayors,
14:25
SPEAKER_00: university leaders,
14:27
SPEAKER_00: law firm partners who bended to Trump in this way has been a poor one.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: And so it's strange that Polis would succumb to it.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: It makes me wonder if there was like even more shadiness here.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: But it's very hard to tell because as you say,
14:50
SPEAKER_00: there's not much logic to it unless you start kind of assuming.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: that he did this for like non-libertarian reasons.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
15:02
I mean,
15:03
so Trump has not done anything for Colorado in exchange for
15:09
this,
15:10
right?
15:10
SPEAKER_01: Like nothing has happened.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's been four days.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: I'm not even sure he,
15:15
SPEAKER_00: like there were reports last year,
15:17
SPEAKER_00: I think,
15:17
SPEAKER_00: and maybe even this year that like,
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Trump intended to review Colorado's federal...
15:24
SPEAKER_00: All the same illegal shit he's doing with all the other blue states.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not sure that there was anything for him to reverse.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: And he certainly wasn't promising to give Colorado any special goodies.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: It's just Colorado's got fire season.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: Colorado's got things that a governor is rightly concerned about.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: But as we've learned, you can't because you have...
15:50
SPEAKER_00: Concern for your constituents sort of deprive them of like representative
15:56
SPEAKER_00: government so that you could curry favor with a corrupt president.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: It's all fucked up.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I agree.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm just,
16:05
I guess I'm trying to understand a little bit more clearly what
16:08
it is you think the
16:10
SPEAKER_01: deal is here.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: Like what favor has been curried?
16:16
SPEAKER_01: What is Jared Polis allegedly receiving from Donald Trump?
16:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: His next job?
16:24
SPEAKER_00: We'll find out.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: But this clearly makes it harder for Jared Polis to get his next job.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: In Democratic politics,
16:33
SPEAKER_00: if Jared Polis wanted a next job in Democratic politics,
16:36
SPEAKER_00: he blew that up.
16:37
If he wants a next job in Silicon Valley or as an ambassador to
16:42
somewhere or
16:43
SPEAKER_00: whatever,
16:44
SPEAKER_00: maybe he didn't.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: I think if Jared Polis' dream in life is to become an ambassador,
16:52
clearly the most concise way for Jared Polis to become an
16:57
ambassador is to serve
16:58
SPEAKER_01: out his term,
16:59
SPEAKER_01: remain a member of the Democratic Party in good standing,
17:02
and be appointed ambassador in the future by the next
17:06
Democratic president.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: It just seems really...
17:09
Pretty unlikely to me that Donald Trump is going to go out of
17:12
his way to do favors
17:14
SPEAKER_01: for Jared Polis,
17:15
SPEAKER_01: who's just still a Democrat.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: We'll see what happens.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: He's also lying about the nature of Peters' crime.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: He's shading...
17:29
SPEAKER_00: Once she received the commutation,
17:31
SPEAKER_00: basically apologized for all the literal illegal acts she committed,
17:35
SPEAKER_00: like creating a fake...
17:36
badge so that Mike Lindell or whatever could access voting
17:41
systems in Colorado.
17:42
But she has never said that she now sees that the 2020 election
17:47
wasn't stolen,
17:48
SPEAKER_00: or that even if you think it was stolen,
17:50
SPEAKER_00: that that doesn't entitle people to try to uncover the truth,
17:54
SPEAKER_00: right?
17:55
They sliced the salami on the remorse question,
17:58
where they had her put out a statement.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're not a parent, but this is...
18:04
SPEAKER_01: Getting kids to apologize for stuff.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: This comes out all the time.
18:08
She came out with something to express remorse for while
18:11
sticking to her guns about
18:14
the positions that the appeals court had said were her
18:17
constitutionally protected
18:18
SPEAKER_01: free speech,
18:19
SPEAKER_01: which I think in a common sense view amounts to not expressing remorse,
18:24
SPEAKER_01: right?
18:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, because that's the whole...
18:28
SPEAKER_01: issue here, right?
18:29
Is that like she has unapologetically maintained from the
18:34
beginning that like
18:36
There's a valid election theft conspiracy claim that she had to
18:41
be looking into.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: And so she's now like,
18:44
I was wrong to specifically provide people with unauthorized
18:48
access to bust up this
18:50
SPEAKER_01: conspiracy.
18:51
But they did not get her to say the thing that it seems like
18:55
the judge in the first
18:56
SPEAKER_01: place wanted her to say,
18:57
SPEAKER_01: which was like,
18:58
SPEAKER_01: there was no conspiracy here.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: I was wrong, right?
19:02
I should not have been acting to undermine the integrity of the
19:09
process of
19:10
SPEAKER_01: elections in Colorado.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: So yes, that is all bad.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to push you a little.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what do you expect will happen here?
19:21
Well,
19:22
what I hope will happen,
19:23
what I've been agitating for on my newsletter is for
19:27
Colorado Democrats to get rid of Jared Polis just say that's
19:30
like that's a betrayal
19:32
SPEAKER_00: of democracy and of our party's view on the question of the Donald Trump
19:38
insurrection and under these conditions you can't do what you
19:43
did and so you're but
19:45
I don't think that's going to happen and so it's just going to
19:48
like feed the
19:50
SPEAKER_00: endless Democratic Party like
19:55
Where like everyone who votes for Democrats wants them to stand
20:00
up for themselves,
20:01
SPEAKER_00: not do the kind of thing Polis does.
20:03
When somebody does something like what Polis does,
20:05
they face consequences.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: Then there are no consequences.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: And everyone's like, what does this party even fucking stand for?
20:10
SPEAKER_01: But like, what do you mean?
20:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
20:12
SPEAKER_01: it's just like,
20:13
SPEAKER_01: I guess like,
20:14
SPEAKER_01: so like,
20:15
SPEAKER_01: like Jared Polis's future in progressive politics is dead.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: Right?
20:20
SPEAKER_00: We agree.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, but he hasn't been maximally shamed.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
20:23
But I'm just like,
20:24
I just like,
20:25
I want to get,
20:26
cause like,
20:27
let me paint a fuller picture.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: Let me paint a fuller picture.
20:29
SPEAKER_00: Look,
20:29
SPEAKER_00: like if,
20:30
SPEAKER_00: if Tina Peters had,
20:31
SPEAKER_00: had,
20:33
SPEAKER_00: had expressed genuine remorse about the whole thing,
20:37
SPEAKER_00: about falling for the election lies and how she,
20:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:41
SPEAKER_00: I can imagine like a pretty strong case for granting her clemency.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: She's elderly and Polis could say, not only is this compassionate,
20:50
This is a signal to everyone who fell for Donald Trump's lies
20:54
that if you recant
20:56
SPEAKER_00: them,
20:56
SPEAKER_00: if you accept factual reality,
21:00
SPEAKER_00: we will welcome you back.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: We will welcome you back into play.
21:02
I could even imagine a pardon for her under a circumstance like
21:05
that,
21:05
right?
21:06
SPEAKER_00: And then I don't think Jared Polis would be getting a lot of pushback.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: Similarly, in a broader climate where, you know,
21:16
SPEAKER_00: The recriminations from the 2020 coup attempt were at a low ebb.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: Donald Trump had kind of moved on.
21:22
Democrats had sort of won the battle for historical
21:28
understanding of what happened then.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: Then you see, well, there's this old lady who's still in prison.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: and what's the point anymore?
21:38
SPEAKER_00: And so he does a big clemency.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: And ideally it's a clemency where it's not just like random people.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: It's like a bunch of other elderly people.
21:47
So that it's a kind of compassionate release for all people
21:51
above a certain age in
21:52
SPEAKER_00: Colorado,
21:53
SPEAKER_00: whatever.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: Then I could see that being like, okay, like it's a judgment call.
21:59
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I don't agree, but it's not the biggest deal in the world.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: I think that what's happening right now, you know,
22:05
May 2026 is that the the forces of insurrection in this country
22:11
are making a big
22:12
aggressive push including on this like question of what should
22:17
happen to Tina
22:17
Peters and they keep getting their way and Democrats and
22:21
Democrats keep running
22:23
into obstacles and then saying well I guess I guess that's the
22:27
end of the line for
22:28
SPEAKER_00: our efforts to resist this and in that climate the the
22:33
Peter's clemency is terrible because it's like Democrats are
22:38
going to do what they
22:40
SPEAKER_00: did after the Civil War.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: Okay, but I agree that it's terrible.
22:44
I'm just like trying to ask a more precise question because
22:46
like there's a world
22:48
like in Boitler land where Democrats are constantly appeasing
22:52
Trump or something
22:54
SPEAKER_01: like that.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: Polis does this part.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: It's like insurrectionists.
22:59
Yeah,
22:59
yeah,
23:00
yeah,
23:00
but I'm just like,
23:01
I'm trying to draw out,
23:03
like,
23:05
just like,
23:06
yes or no.
23:06
Like,
23:07
Jared Polis has no future in left-of-center politics in the
23:11
United States of America.
23:12
SPEAKER_01: I think that's true now, yeah.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: So-
23:15
SPEAKER_01: Why waste capital on... No, no, no.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying why waste capital.
23:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying, like, we are in agreement with that.
23:21
Like,
23:21
Jared Polis...
23:22
And I think this is not a surprise to Polis either,
23:26
right?
23:26
SPEAKER_01: It's not like... Because he did float this previously, right?
23:31
SPEAKER_01: He did a couple different trial balloons around this.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: And there was nobody was like...
23:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like the governor's got this right.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
23:40
There was no,
23:41
you know,
23:42
Senator Hickenlooper wasn't like,
23:44
eh,
23:44
maybe he's onto something.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: There wasn't like the mayor of Aurora saying,
23:50
SPEAKER_01: well,
23:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:51
SPEAKER_01: if it gets us the disaster relief,
23:52
SPEAKER_01: like that's pretty good,
23:53
SPEAKER_01: right?
23:53
SPEAKER_01: Like on the basis of those trial balloons,
23:56
SPEAKER_01: I think it was quite clear that if Polis issued clemency to Tina Peters,
24:01
SPEAKER_01: his future in Democratic Party politics would be done.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: And then he did it anyway.
24:08
because he has decided that he is fine with his future in
24:12
Democratic Party politics being dead.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which is weird.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: Which raises some questions about- It is weird.
24:17
I mean,
24:18
I'm just saying to get what's happening here,
24:21
though,
24:22
it's not like-
24:24
SPEAKER_01: The Democrats decided that granting clemency to Tina Peters was correct,
24:29
SPEAKER_01: or even that they're like,
24:31
SPEAKER_01: say,
24:31
SPEAKER_01: like,
24:32
how many Democrats still think that a firm alliance with Israel
24:36
is a good idea,
24:37
SPEAKER_01: right?
24:37
SPEAKER_01: It's a minority of them, but it is like many.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: There are lots of Democrats in positions of power who are like,
24:45
SPEAKER_01: let's do it,
24:45
SPEAKER_01: like AIPAC all the way,
24:47
SPEAKER_01: Haley Stevens 2026.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: This is an ongoing matter of controversy.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: And this Tina Peters thing was not like that.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: Polis at one point, I think, was thinking about running for president.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: And before he started floating these Tina Peters trial balloons,
25:06
I think pretty clearly came around to the view that that was
25:08
not going to happen.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: You know, that there was no whatever in it for him.
25:13
He could have angled to be appointed to the Senate vacancy that
25:18
will arise if
25:19
SPEAKER_01: Michael Bennett wins the governor's election.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: But he clearly decided he didn't want to do that, right?
25:25
Like something he would have been in a reasonably strong
25:27
position to angle for if
25:29
SPEAKER_01: it was his aspiration in life.
25:31
But you would angle for that by drawing a tough line on this
25:34
Tina Peters thing.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: But he decided he didn't want to be a senator.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't want to run for president.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: So, I don't know.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: Like, what are you going to do?
25:45
Ask the people who hang out with Donald Trump and are worth
25:49
billions of dollars
25:50
SPEAKER_00: what his next gig is.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: I am casting aspersions because I don't know the answer to the question.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: I know that you're casting aspersions,
25:56
SPEAKER_01: but,
25:56
SPEAKER_01: like,
25:57
SPEAKER_01: also,
25:57
SPEAKER_01: I think it's,
25:58
SPEAKER_01: like,
25:58
SPEAKER_01: important to understand,
25:58
SPEAKER_01: like,
25:59
SPEAKER_01: there's a cyclical element to this,
26:02
SPEAKER_01: right?
26:02
SPEAKER_01: Because, like, I don't know.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: Like, how old is Paulus?
26:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: I have not looked it up.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: I would guess late 50s.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: He's 51.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: He's 51 years old.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, he's not going to probably just retire and go golfing.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: And so he's out in Democratic Party politics.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: And so his next act,
26:27
SPEAKER_01: I guess,
26:28
is going to be as a guy who talks about how Democrats are bad
26:32
now because his
26:35
SPEAKER_01: career is done.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: and I don't know.
26:38
Yeah,
26:38
okay,
26:39
maybe Fox News contributor is the thing that he's angling for.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: He's not telling the clear truth about why he did this because if he was,
26:47
SPEAKER_00: he wouldn't feel the need to lie about it and he keeps lying about it.
26:51
And my view is less that he deserves an extra increment of
26:54
punishment,
26:55
although I do.
26:56
I would like to see him have to confront some consequences for
27:01
doing this.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: But what I really want is for when Democrats...
27:07
SPEAKER_00: Like the rest of the party,
27:08
SPEAKER_00: when they get smacked in the face with something like this,
27:12
SPEAKER_00: whether it's from within their own party or more often,
27:14
SPEAKER_00: like from Republicans outside of it,
27:17
SPEAKER_00: that they view it as like,
27:20
SPEAKER_00: we're going to dig in our heels and fight to the end,
27:21
SPEAKER_00: right?
27:22
SPEAKER_00: And this is why,
27:23
SPEAKER_00: like,
27:24
I guess the deadline is passed and the Virginia maps are not
27:28
going to change.
27:28
They're going to use the old maps and Abigail Spamburger is
27:31
just going to do her
27:32
level best to make sure that Virginians know to vote for
27:35
Democrats in November.
27:39
There is still the opportunity available for Abigail Spanberger
27:44
and Democrats in
27:45
the Virginia state legislature to remove the justices from the
27:49
Virginia Supreme
27:50
SPEAKER_00: Court who made this decision.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: It's like a workaround to the fact that they don't have enough votes for
27:56
SPEAKER_00: impeachment,
27:56
SPEAKER_00: but they could do it.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: And I think that they should.
27:59
I think it's actually very important that they do to send a
28:02
signal to those judges,
28:03
but also to every other judge and to Republicans that they're
28:07
not going to play
28:08
SPEAKER_00: patsy
28:09
to the situation Donald Trump's trying to create where
28:13
Republicans win every point
28:15
SPEAKER_00: of political contention,
28:16
SPEAKER_00: Democrats lose all of theirs,
28:17
SPEAKER_00: and then there's an unfair election,
28:19
SPEAKER_00: or the election result gets overturned,
28:21
SPEAKER_00: and then Democrats are expected to just live with it,
28:24
SPEAKER_00: right?
28:24
And I see,
28:26
like,
28:26
the question of what to do about Jared Polis similarly is,
28:30
like,
28:31
is,
28:32
like,
28:34
If somebody is giving aid and comfort to an unrepentant
28:40
insurrectionist and then
28:43
they hold themselves out to be in some way impartial or like a
28:48
member of good
28:49
SPEAKER_00: standing in the Democratic Party,
28:50
SPEAKER_00: the Democratic Party needs to make clear that's not the case.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: And it's frustrating to see Democrats,
28:59
SPEAKER_00: again,
28:59
SPEAKER_00: not Polis,
29:00
SPEAKER_00: but like the rest of them,
29:01
SPEAKER_00: just be like,
29:02
SPEAKER_00: ah,
29:02
SPEAKER_00: what are we going to do?
29:04
SPEAKER_01: But I just don't think that's like what's happening.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: It is what's happening.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: It is unsettled, right?
29:14
SPEAKER_00: So a couple months ago when he did like,
29:18
SPEAKER_00: it seemed like he was about to do it back in March,
29:21
SPEAKER_00: about to grant her clemency back then.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: And I wrote a piece that was like,
29:26
Democrats in the Colorado legislature should threaten him with
29:29
impeachment to push
29:31
SPEAKER_00: him off this.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: They didn't quite do that,
29:33
SPEAKER_00: but they all,
29:34
SPEAKER_00: every member of it,
29:34
SPEAKER_00: signed a letter to him telling him not to do it.
29:37
And so he was like,
29:38
clearly,
29:39
I have work to do on this question,
29:40
so I'm going to defer.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: And so he waited two more months, and then he did it.
29:44
And now those Democrats are overwhelmingly just issuing
29:50
statements of disappointment.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: But there are a few.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: There's some House candidates,
29:55
SPEAKER_00: Colorado House candidates,
29:56
and a Colorado Attorney General candidate who said he should be
30:01
impeached or
30:02
SPEAKER_00: censured over this.
30:03
So maybe there will be a groundswell and maybe like all my
30:05
catastrophizing about
30:06
SPEAKER_00: how Democrats just surrender.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: But I just don't understand.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: So there's two things that I think we are ironclad agreed on, right?
30:14
SPEAKER_01: No matter what Democrats do, Tina Peters will be out of prison.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: At this point, yeah, it seems that way.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: Right.
30:22
And Jared Polis definitely does not have a future in Democratic
30:27
Party politics.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that seems right.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: Right.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: So if they all,
30:34
SPEAKER_01: if they voted unanimously to impeach him,
30:37
SPEAKER_01: like,
30:39
SPEAKER_01: Peters is still going to go free.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: Trump's gambit will still have worked.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: And if they don't impeach him,
30:45
SPEAKER_01: if they just release the statements,
30:47
SPEAKER_01: he still has no future in Democratic Party politics.
30:51
I think one thing that bedevils a lot of our conversations is-
30:54
The Virginia case is
30:55
SPEAKER_01: closer,
30:56
SPEAKER_01: right?
30:56
SPEAKER_01: I think to a real thing,
30:59
because if every single Democrat in the Virginia state
31:03
legislature felt that it was
31:05
SPEAKER_01: make or break for their political future,
31:07
SPEAKER_01: that they go-
31:09
Full pedal to the metal on,
31:10
like,
31:11
maximum,
31:12
you know,
31:13
mucking around with the state judiciary.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: Like, they would do it, right?
31:17
SPEAKER_01: Like,
31:18
the reason that that's not happening is that people in the
31:21
state legislature who
31:23
intend to continue having careers as Democratic Party
31:26
politicians are feeling like,
31:29
SPEAKER_01: we're gonna take a pass on this one and try to get the map for 28.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: You know,
31:35
SPEAKER_01: and like,
31:36
SPEAKER_01: and they are probably correct that sort of muddying the waters on this,
31:40
continuing to move the ball forward on a slower pace will not
31:44
be ending their
31:45
SPEAKER_01: career as Democratic members of the legislature.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: And in fact, it's just the opposite, right?
31:50
SPEAKER_01: The structural weakness of Spanberger's position,
31:53
SPEAKER_01: not just in this specific controversy,
31:55
SPEAKER_01: but actually in all of her legislative battles,
31:58
SPEAKER_01: is that she's term limited.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: She's a lame duck on day one.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: And these legislative members,
32:04
SPEAKER_01: particularly the senior committee chairs,
32:07
SPEAKER_01: intend to be there for a long time.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: You know, so there's like a real...
32:11
question there about like what is in the nuts and bolts of
32:15
Democratic Party politicians.
32:17
And,
32:17
you know,
32:17
if we pivot to Cassidy,
32:19
you know,
32:19
we'll see a very different dynamic over there.
32:22
But like Polis really has signed away his future as a Democrat
32:25
in good standing by doing this.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: Like you won the argument.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: Well, so two things.
32:32
One is that when you look at Virginia,
32:34
I think that the big problem I have with the
32:38
the Virginia State Party's determination just move on and try
32:42
to do the maps again
32:43
in 2028 is that I think that the Virginia Supreme Court just
32:45
showed its cards.
32:47
And it says we will be a player if Donald Trump tries to
32:50
overturn elections.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: If he comes back to Virginia,
32:53
you can't count on us to maintain the integrity of election
32:57
outcomes in Virginia.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: And so it's unsatisfying to have Virginia state Democratic leaders say,
33:03
our response to this is that we're going to encourage
33:05
Virginians to vote for
33:07
SPEAKER_00: Democrats.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: Because
33:09
SPEAKER_00: That's not the danger.
33:11
I don't think that the danger is that Democrats aren't going to
33:14
win most of the
33:15
SPEAKER_00: seats in Virginia.
33:16
The danger is that Republican judges in Virginia and across the
33:20
country are this
33:21
SPEAKER_00: time not going to do what they did in 2020.
33:23
They're going to play ball with Donald Trump and try to throw
33:25
out Democratic
33:26
SPEAKER_00: victories where they can.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: And so you need to show force back at them.
33:33
Yeah,
33:34
I'm just trying to get you to admit that you've gotten what you
33:37
want on politics.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
33:39
The Pola situation I view as more akin to like the conversation
33:44
we were having last
33:45
SPEAKER_00: week about the ballroom and monuments to Donald Trump,
33:48
where I think that like frequently what puts us on different
33:52
pages about things is
33:54
that we understand the importance of symbolism in politics
33:59
pretty differently.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: And like there was a very good case to make 150 years ago that
34:08
SPEAKER_00: Civil War's over, the good guys won.
34:11
In order to try to massage the country back together and
34:15
maintain internal peace,
34:18
SPEAKER_00: we should allow the losers to write the history of what happened.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: And it's an ongoing disaster to this very day.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: And something like that is brewing now.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: where Trump wants the post-Trump future to look like one where all the
34:37
SPEAKER_00: insurrectionists got out.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: Some of them got a lot of money.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: They were allowed to do it again.
34:42
The truth about the insurrection does not appear in high school
34:47
history textbooks.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: Democrats...
34:50
SPEAKER_00: ended up giving clemency to insurrectionists.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: And when, you know what I mean?
34:54
Like you just,
34:56
they want to rewrite history for 90 years the way the
34:59
Confederates did.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think that would be very bad.
35:03
I think that would make the potential of American politics for
35:09
the rest of our
35:09
SPEAKER_00: lives much lower than it would be if Democrats just insist that
35:15
SPEAKER_00: What happened in 2020 was an insurrection.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: It was like a crime against the state.
35:21
SPEAKER_00: It was a tragedy that Donald Trump got elected again.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: We are living with the consequences of that.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: And what we have to do now is bury Trumpism forever.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: And that's not how they're reacting to it.
35:31
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's troubling.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: Listen,
35:33
I cannot agree with you more that the January 6th introduction
35:37
was terrible and
35:37
SPEAKER_01: that like the worst thing that Democrats did
35:41
SPEAKER_01: Horrible,
35:42
SPEAKER_01: horrible,
35:42
horrible thing that they did was squander the moment in the
35:47
country by like doing
35:49
SPEAKER_01: all this like progressive public policy that alienated people.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm like in so much agreement.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm just like,
35:55
I'm just trying to get you to accept that you have basically
36:01
won the argument about
36:02
SPEAKER_01: Jared Polis,
36:03
SPEAKER_01: that you are getting your way.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: No,
36:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
36:07
getting my way would have been the Democrats in Colorado
36:10
threatening him with
36:11
SPEAKER_00: impeachment.
36:11
I know,
36:12
I know,
36:13
but this is like,
36:14
I think you do this thing where in order to-
36:18
You think I just want to be mad,
36:20
but there's a reason why before he did this.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: I think that whenever a concrete,
36:25
SPEAKER_01: tangible thing comes up,
36:27
SPEAKER_01: you almost sit twiddling your thumbs and you're like,
36:30
how can I set a bar that is unrealistic so that there can never
36:37
be a Brian Boitler
36:38
SPEAKER_01: column that's like,
36:40
SPEAKER_01: I basically got what I wanted out of this.
36:42
And it's like,
36:43
Polis has been floating this Tina Peters pardon for a while,
36:48
right?
36:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:51
So like this has been going and he has always been a
36:55
libertarian-ish Democrat.
36:57
You know,
36:57
like his book is like about how like we need to legalize drugs
37:01
and stuff.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: He has done a lot of soft on crime type things.
37:06
And he made an effort to like sell this to his allies in the
37:12
civil libertarian
37:13
SPEAKER_01: movement and stuff like that as like,
37:15
SPEAKER_01: this is just like good normal stuff.
37:17
SPEAKER_01: And it totally failed.
37:19
SPEAKER_01: One guy at Mother Jones was like, this makes sense.
37:23
SPEAKER_01: But nobody else is agreeing with this.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: The abundance pundits are not like, we got to hear Polis out.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: The ACLU isn't like, yeah, Tina Peters, we got to do it.
37:35
SPEAKER_01: He is dead.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: His career is dead.
37:38
Brian Boitler won the argument about,
37:41
is Jared Polis doing the right thing here?
37:44
SPEAKER_01: Almost everybody says no.
37:46
Is this like a small thing that we should just let slide in the
37:50
interests of being
37:52
SPEAKER_01: broad-minded?
37:52
SPEAKER_01: Like, nobody is saying that we should.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: Like, he's done.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: There's a spectrum you can imagine, right?
38:00
Like,
38:00
when you stipulate that Jared Polis is considering pardoning
38:04
the insurrection Tina Peters.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: And in the worst-
38:09
On the worst end of that spectrum is that Polis manages to
38:13
convince a bunch of
38:14
SPEAKER_00: Democrats that this is good morally and good politics.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm losing the literal argument,
38:23
SPEAKER_00: the merits argument about whether Tina Peters deserves clemency.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: And then on the complete opposite end of the spectrum,
38:32
You have a Democratic Party that is overwhelmingly constituted
38:36
to reject the kind
38:37
SPEAKER_00: of thing that Polis has in mind.
38:39
And so he proposes it,
38:41
and they say,
38:42
if you do this,
38:43
we are going to remove you from office.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, we can't stop you from doing it because you are the governor.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: But if you do it, you're out.
38:53
SPEAKER_00: And it's possible that if they had made that threat,
38:56
SPEAKER_00: he would have done it anyway,
38:57
SPEAKER_00: but then they would have probably impeached and removed him.
38:59
SPEAKER_00: And I would say to myself,
39:02
SPEAKER_00: Like that's a party that gets it and I have confidence in them.
39:06
SPEAKER_00: And what we have is like something in between where,
39:10
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
39:11
SPEAKER_00: it's good that Michael Bennett isn't saying,
39:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
39:14
SPEAKER_00: I understand why he did this or,
39:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
39:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't second guess the governor or,
39:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
39:19
SPEAKER_00: this was his decision to make.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: He's saying this was a bad idea and I disagree.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: That's better than siding with Polis in some way or ducking the issue.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: But it's not...
39:30
SPEAKER_00: That's strong.
39:31
SPEAKER_01: It's not- This is why I keep asking you this question,
39:35
SPEAKER_01: though,
39:35
SPEAKER_01: like really,
39:36
SPEAKER_01: really,
39:36
SPEAKER_01: really pointedly.
39:37
Because yes,
39:38
all the time people issue statements and we go,
39:41
oh,
39:41
it's just a statement.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: But like,
39:43
SPEAKER_01: I think,
39:44
SPEAKER_01: right,
39:44
like that there is a roughly 0% chance that Jared Polis will be
39:49
a cabinet secretary
39:50
SPEAKER_01: in a future Democratic Party administration.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: I think cabinet secretary,
39:55
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
39:55
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't be terribly shocked if he became ambassador in a Democratic
39:58
SPEAKER_00: administration to somewhere else.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: Okay, because now I feel like we're back.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: But, like, to me, I just, like...
40:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's rich.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: He's going to give money to the party.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: I just,
40:08
SPEAKER_01: like,
40:09
SPEAKER_01: I think that,
40:10
SPEAKER_01: like,
40:11
SPEAKER_01: the overwhelming majority of Democrats,
40:14
SPEAKER_01: like,
40:14
SPEAKER_01: basically agree with you and me about this.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: That, like, this was very bad.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: That Jared Polis really should not have done it.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: And that by doing it, he has, like, cast himself out.
40:25
from the good graces of the Democratic Party and that there is
40:29
nothing he is going
40:30
to do that worms his way back in and that the problem that we
40:34
are all dealing with
40:35
here isn't a question of is he removed from office in June or
40:39
does he continue to
40:40
SPEAKER_01: serve for the next five months?
40:42
SPEAKER_01: It's that he doesn't give a shit for whatever reason.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: You know, like he has decided that he is fine being out
40:49
SPEAKER_01: with the Democratic Party?
40:50
SPEAKER_00: He wasn't facing maximum deterrence or anything close to it, right?
40:54
SPEAKER_00: Like Democrats have- That I just disagree with.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: I just like,
40:57
I think that you have created this like slightly odd
41:01
understanding of what the
41:03
relevant deterrence mechanism is versus just like he has
41:06
decided that his career in
41:08
Democratic Party politics is done and that he doesn't care and
41:11
that he has
41:12
SPEAKER_01: something else that he cares about.
41:14
SPEAKER_00: Democrats are on sounder fighting footing now by far than they were
41:19
SPEAKER_00: a year ago.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: And I have written about that.
41:21
I will put the articles I've written about that in the show
41:24
notes to prove you
41:25
SPEAKER_00: wrong about how I'm just like,
41:27
I'm always looking to like move the goalpost so I can remain
41:30
angry at Democrats.
41:32
SPEAKER_00: I think it is good.
41:33
SPEAKER_00: And I look,
41:33
SPEAKER_00: I think that if this was something that happened in April 2025,
41:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't know where Colorado Democrats would have fallen on the question.
41:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
41:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: But it is better
41:47
Now that it was then and now it's nice to see Democratic
41:52
politicians issuing press
41:54
releases that are kind of like hot takes that say what Brian
41:59
Boitler thinks rather
42:00
SPEAKER_00: than something Brian Boitler disagrees with.
42:02
That doesn't mean that like I think that the work here is done
42:05
and that they have
42:06
SPEAKER_00: reached the like appropriate level of fighting this.
42:09
SPEAKER_00: They've got room to grow and they have to.
42:13
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm going to like
42:15
Continue observing when they soft pedal shit and try to make
42:19
them do better.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: That's like that.
42:21
So I want to take a break and then talk about the guy moving in
42:24
the opposite
42:24
SPEAKER_01: direction,
42:25
SPEAKER_01: Bill Cassidy of Louisiana.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Maybe we'll discover some strange new respect for the good doctor.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: If you want to hear that part of the conversation,
42:33
SPEAKER_00: go to politics.fm and upgrade your subscription.