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Could Trump Become Speaker? · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's show, Donald Trump is gagged by the judge
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: in his fraud trial for attacking the judge's staffer. And
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson stopped by to talk
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: about her decision to testify against her former colleagues in
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: the Trump administration. But first.
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: The yeas are 216. The nays are 210. The resolution
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: is adopted. Without objection, the motion to reconsider is laid
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: on the table. The office of Speaker of the House
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: of the United States House of Representatives is hereby declared vacant.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Someone said, now what? Kevin McCarthy is no longer speaker.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: He's no longer Trump's Kevin. He's no longer anyone's Kevin.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: He's just a backbencher from Bakersfield who got cucked by
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Matt Gaetz and seven other House Republicans that he helped
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: elect in the first place. They joined every House Democrat
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: in voting to remove McCarthy after Gates filed a motion
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: to vacate, which he was allowed to do because of
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: a deal McCarthy agreed to back in January in order
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: to get the job that he has now lost. Anyway,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: McCarthy ally Patrick McHenry is serving as temporary speaker until
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: House Republicans hold an election next week. But between now
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: and then, we can all continue to enjoy a whole
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: lot of this.
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: Those eight people are anarchists and they're chaos caucus members.
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: They're traitors.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: All eight of them should, in fact, be primaried.
• 1:56
  Speaker 5: They should all be driven out of public life.
• 1:59
  Speaker 6: Because ultimately, Matt Gaetz, who hates, let's be clear, he
• 2:02
  Speaker 6: hates Kevin McCarthy.
• 2:04
  Speaker 5: And I hope they expel him from the conference.
• 2:07
  Speaker 7: The Republican Party today just can't govern.
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: Democrats have become the party of discipline, and the Republicans
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: have become the party that lacks discipline.
• 2:14
  Speaker 7: Now the House that has a slim Republican majority looks
• 2:19
  Speaker 7: like they can't govern.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: They have a strong case.
• 2:21
  Speaker 7: When you go to these swing districts and say, look,
• 2:24
  Speaker 7: you saw the chaos in the House.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: You've got to put a Democrat in charge. Give Hakeem
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Jeffries the gavel. That was Fox & Friends, Ari Fleischer,
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Newt Gingrich. Oh, it's good. It's good, Dan. All right,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: so reporters who were on the Hill Tuesday said they
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: saw multiple House Republicans crying and praying over McCarthy's demise.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Which one have you been doing, Dan? Crying or praying?
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Laughing. Laughing hysterically the whole time.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Do you see any way McCarthy could have saved his job?
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Or was this inevitable from the moment he struck a
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: deal with the Freedom Caucus that would allow a single
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: member— to file a motion to vacate, which Matt Gaetz
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: took him up on.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know that it was inevitable, but it was
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: highly likely. Once he made that decision, which no person
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: should ever have accepted that, and he accepted that to
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: get Matt Gaetz's vote, who also did not vote for
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Kevin McCarthy. So it just shows what a brilliant legislative
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: leader Kevin McCarthy is. The way McCarthy has governed his
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: speaker since agreeing to the motion to vacate is he
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: was going to operationalize his entire strategy around appeasing the
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: Matt Gaetz's of the world. And like every other historical
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: example of an appeasement strategy, that one did not work.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: What he could have done, which may, may not have worked,
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: but would have given him a greater chance of survival
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: would have been to try to build a coalition where
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: he did what, and I'm going to, this pains me
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: to say this, what Paul Ryan and John Boehner did,
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: which was to try to isolate the freedom. Two of
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: your mentors. Two people on my personal Mount Rushmore, uh, was, uh,
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: would be where he put himself in a position where
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: he maybe cut some deals with Democrats, governed in a
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: slightly more bipartisan fashion, and then maybe could have counted
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: on– you could see a world where Jared Golden, Josh Gottheimer,
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: some of these other more– these Democrats who operate or
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: sort of problem-solver caucus or in more Republican districts might
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: have voted to save McCarthy. But he never did that
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: because he stuck his thumb in the eye of every
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: Democrat in order to crawl up the butts of all
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: the MAGA Republicans.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear a lot of people, pundits, Democrats, Republicans, saying,
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: you know, this was inevitable. You know, you give Matt
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: Gaetz a loaded gun, he's going to use it, right?
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: And it's only inevitable if you think that the only
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: path is to placate the hard-right Republicans in your caucus. Like,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: I don't understand why McCarthy couldn't have, like... built a
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: coalition government, you know, a coalition style government where like
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: you got the Republican problem solvers, plus the Biden district Republicans,
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: plus a few of the Democrats you mentioned. And then
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: if a Gates or someone like that files a motion
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: to vacate, then maybe you have a couple Democrats willing,
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: or a good chunk of Democrats willing to bail you out.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: And and all you have is eight to 10 hard
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: right Republicans who are willing to kick you out of
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: the of the chair.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: There is a chance some number of Democrats would have
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: voted for McCarthy if they thought he was better than
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: the alternative. But he did nothing, not one single time
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: during his tenure to show Democrats that he would be
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: better than the alternative. He just sort of ran as
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: the Freedom Caucus speaker. The Democrats are never going to
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: help that person.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Well, Republicans are unsurprisingly criticizing House Democrats for not voting
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: to save McCarthy. Here's a good summary of that argument
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: from conservative columnist Matt Lewis in The Daily Beast. Quote,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: although Dems aren't to blame for this chaos, they have
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: a moral obligation to strive for the best outcome for America.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: And based on the likely alternatives, Speaker McCarthy is probably
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: as good as it gets. Instead of siding with sanity,
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: Democrats have decided to side with Gates. It's not a
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: good look.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: No, you made that last part up.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Honestly, it sounds like a take that Elijah would make
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: up for take appreciators. First of all, anyone who says
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: it's not a good look, I'm sorry. I don't care
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: what side of the aisle you're on. I don't care
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: what your political persuasion is. I'm so sick of the phrase.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: It's a Twitter phrase. It doesn't work for me. Don't
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: put it in your fucking column. Dan, why did partisan
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: hacks like you want to put politics ahead of the
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: best outcome for America? You were out there with your
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: message box telling Democrats not to save Kevin McCarthy. Why
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: do you care so little about the country's well-being?
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: Many people are saying Democrats were about to save him
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: until I hit send on that Substack app.
• 7:01
  Speaker 5: And the tide turned.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: The Capitol Hill reporters really like Kevin McCarthy. He is
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: an affable doofus. He pals around with them. He's probably
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: a big Punchbowl subscriber. He– He chit-chats with them off
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: the record. They like him. He gives them access. And
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: it actually says how bad a job Kevin McCarthy did
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: at his job that he got such bad press coverage
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: over the course of that time. But whenever an opportunity
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: comes where they can write nice things about him, they
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: leap at it. So all of a sudden, there's been
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: this transformation that Kevin McCarthy is a martyr when he's
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: actually just a moron. Think about Kevin McCarthy's tenure. He
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: pushed the big lie after the election. He voted to
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: overturn the election hours after a violent mob tried to
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: murder his staff and colleagues. He held the full faith
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: and credit of the United States hostage in order to
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: get a budget deal. He walked away from that budget
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: deal to try to shut down the government to hold
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: aid to Ukraine hostage. He pushed a partisan, unfounded, ridiculous
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: impeachment of Joe Biden. What possible reasons would Democrats have
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: to help this person keep his job?
• 8:11
  Speaker 5: It's absurd.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: Kevin McCarthy was bad at his job. He was a
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: bad faith actor. He was not someone Democrats could work with.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: And you imagine that you would vote. Democrats cannot vote
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: to make someone in the line of the presidency who
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: voted to overturn the election out of fealty to Donald Trump.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: That is an absurd proposition.
• 8:29
  Speaker 8: I know you.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Don't believe you don't know. I can't wait to hear this.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: No, I just think that you don't even need to
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: get that far with him.
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: Like, Because first of all, I think going through your
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: list of McCarthy grievances, all of which are points very
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: well taken. Though I will say that he surprised me
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: a little bit on the debt ceiling and this last
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: government funding thing. Like he risked the full faith and
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: credit of the United States, but he didn't do what
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: the hard right wanted there. He cut a deal with
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden, which was the beginning of his problems. And
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: then his problem snowballed to the point where he then
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: lost his speakership when he kept the government open, which
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: they also did not want him to do. Now, I
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: don't think this is because like Kevin McCarthy is like
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: a responsible guy or a genius tactician or anything like that.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: But I think that if if Democrats like the whole
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: premise that it's actually Democrats fault, they should have worked
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: with McCarthy is based on like, OK, well, Democrats should
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: have just trusted McCarthy one more time to keep his word,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: even though he hasn't kept his word during the last
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: two deals. Didn't keep his word on the deal he
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: made with Joe Biden on spending.
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: Didn't keep his word any number of times. But it's
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: not that Democrats would have had to trust Kevin McCarthy
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: because they didn't even get the chance to trust him
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: because he didn't want to deal with them. He said
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: publicly in the last week, I don't want to make
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: a deal with Democrats. I don't want to work with Democrats.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: I don't want to cooperate with Democrats. So like if
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: you're a Democrat, even if you want to punish him
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: for his like odious behavior around January 6th and all
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: the other bullshit that he's done, which would be like
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: the right thing, it would be a fair thing to
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: do and you understand it. But if I was, if
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: I had a choice between kicking McCarthy out of the
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: speakership and keeping the government funded and like getting the
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: Ukraine funding in there too, and making sure that we
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: don't have a government shutdown in 45 days. You know,
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: I probably keep McCarthy there if I could be guaranteed
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: those other things, but like, it's not even that we
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: couldn't trust him is that he didn't even want to try.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: And, but it's also that goes to show how untrustworthy
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: is that he announced he was not going to work
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: with Democrats, but then at the end reportedly called Hakeem
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Jeffries to see if he could get a deal.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: But did he really?
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: I'm just telling you, it was reported in one of
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: those political newsletters that he had reached out to him.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Even beyond just this specific example, there is no more
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: bad faith, intellectually lazy argument than Democrats are responsible for
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: Republican behavior. It is not Barack Obama's fault for beating
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: Mitt Romney that we ended up with Donald Trump. It's
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: not Democrats' fault for refusing to support Kevin McCarthy as Speaker,
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: that the Republican Party is in absolute chaos. And the
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: problem is, this is not like MAGA pundits who do this.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: It's the never-Trump faux intellectuals who should know better who
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: do this because they can't reckon with how terrible their
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: party is. They have to blame Democrats as a way
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: to explain why their party went down the toilet. Matt
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: Lewis is an example here. We see this all the time.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: They should know better, and it's embarrassing.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: I will say that a lot of the Hill reporters...
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: that you so malign, um, today the Republicans tweeted out, uh,
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: the Democrats are the chaos caucus.
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: And then a lot of the whole report is like,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: this is such bullshit. Like this is like people, people
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: get that it's bullshit, I think. But look, I think
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: if you're a democratic lawmaker, you're trying to figure out like, yes,
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: it's all the Republicans fault, but like, how do we,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about this, but like, how
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: do we now keep the And whichever fucking joker they
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: put in there as speaker matters less than what the
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: policy outcome here, which is keeping the government open and
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: making sure that support for Ukraine goes through. All right,
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: let's talk about what comes next. Steve Scalise, the number
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: two Republican in the House, who reportedly once referred to
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: himself as David Duke without the baggage, says he's running
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: for speaker. Jim Jordan, the Trump pal who former Speaker
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: John Boehner once called a, quote, political terrorist, says he's running, too.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: And there may be one more candidate for the job
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: as well.
• 12:42
  Speaker 7: Sources telling me at this hour, some House Republicans have
• 12:45
  Speaker 7: been in contact with and have started an effort to
• 12:48
  Speaker 7: draft former President Donald Trump to be the next speaker.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: I've now heard from a number of people.
• 12:54
  Speaker 7: I know for a fact Donald Trump has been contacted
• 12:59
  Speaker 7: about possibly him being an interim speaker.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: Is that a reality?
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: A lot of.
• 13:04
  Speaker 7: People have been calling me a bad speaker. All I
• 13:07
  Speaker 7: can say is we'll do whatever's best for the country
• 13:10
  Speaker 7: and for the Republican Party.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: So, right before we started recording today, Thursday morning, apparently
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: now Trump is expected to go to Capitol Hill on Tuesday.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: And he is apparently open to pitching himself for the job.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: When he goes to the Capitol for the first time
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: since he incited an insurrection on January 6th, now he's
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: thinking about being Speaker. What do you think? You on
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: the Trump for Speaker train yet?
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: As Elijah always says, content trumps the Constitution. So absolutely.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, are we doomed to repeat the same news
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: cycle over and over and over again? This is at
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: least the third or fourth time we've done Trump for Speaker,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: I think, since we started doing this podcast.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Is it? I know we did it around the McCarthy vote,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: the 15 votes. I guess we did it probably back
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: in the Trump era.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think we did it
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: in 16 maybe before even. I don't know. It's not great.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: So he will be nominated as Speaker by at least
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: one House Republican who's already said they're going to nominate him.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: Marjorie Taylor Greene said that he's her first and only
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: choice so far for Speaker. So he'll probably get some
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: votes on the first ballot, but two reasons why he's
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: probably unlikely to win. Number one, any speaker can only
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: lose four Republicans. So Trump could only lose four Republicans,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: which makes it seem a little tricky that he's going
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: to get every single Republican on board but four. And
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: then there's another problem, something known as Rule 26 in
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: the House, that these are part of the House Republican rules.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: A member of the Republican leadership shall step aside if
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: indicted for a felony for which a sentence of two
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: or more years imprisonment may be imposed. So that's tough.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: But of course, of course, Republicans made that rule. I'm
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: sure they would change it for Donald Trump.
• 15:16
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: Also, I would like to know the legislative history of
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: how they chose the two year minimum. Like, are there
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: a series of crimes they thought someone in line for
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: the leadership could get that had a maximum sentence below
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: two years in prison?
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: That are felonies, by the way.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: That are felonies, yes.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: So it's not like a misdemeanor. It's like it's a felony,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: but it's an under two year. Yeah.
• 15:35
  Speaker 8: Okay. All right.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Jordan and Scalise, how do you think this race plays out?
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: And is there any chance we get someone who's not
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: worse than McCarthy in every way? I would say that
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Jim Jordan and Steve Scalise are both worse than Kevin McCarthy,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: but I don't know. How do you think this plays out?
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: We should assume, whether it's Steve Scalise or Jim Jordan
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: or anyone else, including Donald Trump, that whoever is the
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: elected speaker by these House Republicans is a deeply dangerous, malicious, dishonest,
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: conspiracy theory propagating MAGA asshole. That is a job requirement
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: to be speaker of this Republican House. That is going
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: to happen. Now, how this plays out, I think, is interesting.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Jake Sherman of Punchbowl tweeted yesterday, Wednesday, that every person
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: he had talked to in the Republican caucus, staffers, members,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: thought there was no way this could be over by Wednesday.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: It just would seem impossible. Now, while we're preparing today,
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Lauren Bobert tweeted that she... Do you even know what
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: I'm going to say?
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: No, I'm just laughing at you pronouncing her name Bobert.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: Look, when I think theater goer, I think vaguely French.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: She's really fancy now.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Look, she's a theater fan, I'm going to say.
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: Lauren Boebert, Boebert, Lauren Beetlejuice Boebert tweeted that she would
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: abandon the motion to vacate role if Jim Jordan became
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: the speaker, which was interesting.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: But if this goes long, I think the odds that
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: it ends up being someone other than Jordan and Scalise
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: goes up. Because it's hard to.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Get– You never want to be the first couple candidates
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: in a speaker's race.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Well, it's hard to– if it's highly polarized and you
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: end up with a whole bunch of people who are
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: voting for Scalise and against Jordan and vice versa, it
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: gets harder to– it's easier to get those people to
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: vote for a third person than to vote for the
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: person they've been opposing this whole time. And Jim Banks,
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: who is the head of the Republican Study Committee and
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: sort of a prominent-ish conservative, tweeted that he was supporting
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Elise Stefanik.
• 17:31
  Speaker 5: A speaker? I know.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: But as I said, this only ends one way and
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: it's not good.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been watching today as we were about to
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: record a sort of a slew of House Republicans came
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: out saying that they were going to endorse Jordan. The
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: trick here is you would expect like, you know, Scalise
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: is McCarthy's number two. So you'd expect like McCarthy's leadership
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: allies and all the people who are McCarthy folks to
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: And some of the more like main, I won't call
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: them moderate, but mainstream Republicans who like McCarthy to just
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: go with Scalise in this scenario. But because McCarthy and
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: Scalise never got along or haven't gotten along for a
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: couple of years and there's always been bad blood between them.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: There was reporting this morning that McCarthy's staffers have been
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: like quietly reaching out to lawmakers on behalf of Jim
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Jordan because Jim Jordan became really tight with McCarthy by
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: the end. So if you've got like the Freedom Caucus, Nuts.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Plus some McCarthy allies going with Jordan. I think it
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: becomes a closer race. I think Scalise, you know, the
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: advantages he has is, you know, he is number two.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: He has a whipping operation because he was the house whip.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: So he knows a lot of these members.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: Famously good at counting votes, Steve Scalise, and delivering. Someone
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: just lost like nine consecutive votes on the floor last week.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: But he doesn't, but it doesn't seem like he doesn't
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: have anyone who's like really pissed at him. You know,
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: like he doesn't inspire a lot of hatred. Which is wild.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: That is wild.
• 19:03
  Speaker 7: I know.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: I know. Well, in this Republican House, it's not as wild.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: And I think Jordan probably has made more enemies over
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: the years, specifically among the more moderate members of the
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: Republican caucus, which are now few in number.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Whoever Republicans pick, I feel like it's more likely now
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: we're headed for a government shutdown in 45 days and
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: less likely that Ukraine funding will pass. But what do
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: you think?
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: I think that's exactly right. I think Ukraine funding in particular,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: once you have opened the door to short-term continuing resolutions,
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: it gets easier to do it, which is one of
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: the reasons why the right tried so hard to stop this.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: Because once you've done 45 days, we'll do another 30
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: days to get through Thanksgiving and the holidays, we'll come
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: back and have this fight next year. I'm not saying
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: that's going to happen, but there's a chance of that.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: The defining issue in this speaker's race between Jordan and
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Scalise and whoever else may get involved at the end
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: is going to be about the aid to Ukraine. That
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: will be the thing that they will base their candidacy on,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: that they will not allow that to happen without some
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: set of probably unmeetable criteria that And this is a
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: place where Democrats and moderate Republicans could work together if
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: the Senate were to pass something where they could do
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: a discharge petition on to, again, find a way to
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: bring that to the floor. Because it's hard to imagine
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: that someone is going to become speaker if this Republican,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: to get nearly every member of this Republican caucus to
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: do it, who can then turn around in the coming
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: weeks and months, which is what the Biden administration said
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: they need the aid by, to get that done. That
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: seems very, very hard to imagine.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: And I think that's all correct. And even if you
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: zoom out from the Ukraine funding and just talk about
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: keeping the government open in general, the reason, or at
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: least the given reason that those eight Republicans booted McCarthy
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: out of the speakership at the end is because he
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: used Democratic votes to keep the government open the first time,
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: which of course he had to do it because you
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: cannot keep the government open without Democratic votes because Democrats,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Control the Senate. Republicans have a four seat majority in
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: the House and a fucking Democrat is president. So now
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: these guys are going to run for speaker. And Jordan's
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: already saying, I will not put a Ukraine funding vote
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: up if I'm speaker. So even if Scalise wants to,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: even if he wants to do the responsible thing or
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: wanted like McCarthy to like maybe figure out Ukraine at
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: some point, how's Scalise going to win if he doesn't
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: match Jordan's promise on Ukraine? And I'm sure Jordan's going
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: to say the same thing about keeping the government open
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: in general. Like, these people, they want a shutdown. They
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: wanted a shutdown under McCarthy. He didn't give them one.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: And now there's going to be a race to see
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: who can get the most Republican votes. And if you
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: don't think that, like, shutting the government down is going
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: to be a stipulation for getting those votes, I don't
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: know what to tell you.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Now, it's also, I think,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: possible and maybe even likely that the next speaker... will
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: have a different threshold for the motion to vacate.
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: I think there will be enough people who will want
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: to change that, that even some of these people on
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: the far right, other than Gates, are not going to
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: want to have to go through this again three weeks
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: from now. And that could be the candidate, especially if
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: you end up with a third candidate. That's how it
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: happened with how Paul Ryan ended up speaker, was they
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: couldn't get McCarthy, they couldn't find anyone else who the
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: caucus supported to do it. They went to Ryan and
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: he said, as his criteria to do it, they had
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: to change the motion to vacate rule so he could
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: not be at the same risk that Boehner was. And
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: they were changed for McCarthy, they could change back.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: The other issue that I think will come into play
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: here is the border. And you're already starting to hear
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: Jim Jordan talk about, you know, we can't be caring
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: so much about Ukraine and not enough about our own border.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: And I'm not going to pass any Ukraine funding unless
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: we do something about the southern border. And then you're
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: hearing Senate Republicans saying who really want to pass Ukraine funding. saying, okay,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: maybe we have to send something over that funds Ukraine,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: but also funds more border security, which some Democrats are
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: okay with funding more border security. But I think what
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Jordan and some of the House Republicans want to do
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: is not just like more money for border security, but
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: more immigration restrictions. So like rewriting immigration laws. Yeah, policy changes,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: which I think Democrats aren't going to go for as
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: they shouldn't. So then we get into government shutdown territory.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: This is what McCarthy sort of kind of tried to
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: do at the end was to make the shutdown about
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: border policy. He just waited too long to do that.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: That's a much stronger political hand for Republicans where you
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: will find some, you know, given the polling on immigration
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: recently and the trust gap between Republicans and Democrats, you
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: could find some Democrats getting pretty nervous pretty quickly on that.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: And you could see the next Republican speaker, whoever they are,
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: be able to execute that with more competence and coherence
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: than McCarthy did.
• 23:43
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: And they're all I think they're all going to realize that,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: you know, negative partisanship rules all. And instead of like
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Republican chaos, they all have to unite against the great
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Democratic enemy. You already saw that with Patrick McHenry, who
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: is this temporary speaker. His first move was to kick
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer out of their offices in
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Capitol Hill, which sort of like there's a few like
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Freedom Caucus people that were like, oh, I didn't like McCarthy,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: but If this McHenry guy was kicking Nancy Pelosi and
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Steny Hoyer out, I like him already.
• 24:15
  Speaker 8: It's just so petty and stupid.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Fucking assholes. It's so silly. All right. So Democrats are
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: already pointing to this mess as another example of why
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: the Republican Party is chaotic and incapable of governing because
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: they are. Do you think Democrats can make that stick
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: or will most voters have no idea what happened this week?
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: Most voters will have no idea what happened this week.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: And even if they did have an idea, it is
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: memory hold. I mean, it was only nine months ago
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: that Republicans did this huge national embarrassing spectacle to get McCarthy,
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: and people forgot that pretty quickly. I think they'll forget that.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: I think there is an argument about Republican chaos and
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: incompetence that we can run on, and this can be
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: a data point, but I don't think it's a particularly
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: salient one by next November.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: No, I think what people are going to realize and
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: what people are going to feel is a government shutdown.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: And I think If Democrats can make a case, and
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: we should be able to, that Republicans have caused the
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: shutdown because they are chaotic and incapable of governing, and
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: that shutdown has real effects for people and people's lives,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: then that's an argument. But I think the chaos among
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Republicans needs to have a consequence for real people and
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: not just like a fun drama to watch on the
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: news about Kevin McCarthy getting ousted. All right, speaking of
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: making Republican chaos stick with voters, Donald Trump is back
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: at Mar-a-Lago after spending three days sitting in a Manhattan
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: courthouse for the civil fraud trial that could spell the
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: end of Trump's business empire. Judge Arthur N. Gorin slapped
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: a gag order on Trump after he attacked one of
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: the judge's clerks on Truth Social by suggesting that she
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: is dating Chuck Schumer. There's a new one, which of
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: course she's not, and the post was removed. But that
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: didn't stop Trump from attacking the judge, the attorney general,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: and everyone else.
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: He's a Democrat judge out of the clubhouses.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: He's controlled, and it's a shame.
• 26:11
  Speaker 5: What's going on here is a shame. Our whole system
• 26:14
  Speaker 5: is corrupt.
• 26:16
  Speaker 8: This is corrupt.
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: Atlanta is corrupt. And what's coming out of D.C.
• 26:20
  Speaker 8: Is corrupt.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: It's all corrupt. He's putting the whole system on trial.
• 26:25
  Speaker 8: I'm not out of order.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: You're out of order.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: The whole system's out of order. So lesson learned, I guess,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: from Trump. Do you think he doesn't care about this
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: gag order and other potential gag orders? Judge Chicken is
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: going to rule on this in D.C. for the Jack
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Smith case there? Or is Trump just constitutionally incapable of
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: shutting his mouth?
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: Both.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: He's obviously constitutionally incapable of shutting his mouth. I also
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: think every part of his life has taught him that
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: he never faces consequences for what he does.
• 26:56
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, if you can lead, I mean, he may
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: end up in prison and that would be a pretty
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: severe consequence.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: But up till now. 78 years old, the first consequence,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: going to prison for Donald Trump.
• 27:08
  Speaker 8: There you go.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, the guy led a violent insurrection in the
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: United States that almost tried to murder a Republican vice
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: president and the Republican Party embraced him three months later.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: So I think he probably feels pretty secure that a
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: couple of mean truths about someone are not going to
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: lead to real consequences.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think the, like, I mean, I'm surprised
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: that he actually took the post down because the judge
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: ordered him to and he did take it down. So
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: apparently he was, he's afraid of something happening.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: I don't feel like he was in the settings at
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: Truth Social being the.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: One who pulled that down. You don't think he was
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: doing that? You don't think he was actually truthing while
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: he was scowling during the trial? You should take a
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: look at the pictures. Trump didn't have to be at
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: this trial. He was not legally obligated to be at
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: this trial. He was there for three days. Why do
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: you think he showed up?
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: There has been some reporting or maybe speculation in the
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: form of reporting that this was part of some strategy
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: where he could help control the message of the trial.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: And maybe, I mean, I do think he is drawn
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: to where cameras are and they're going to be cameras there.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: I do think that even though he is not afraid
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: of things like these gag orders, because he thinks they
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: will never have teeth as it relates to him. I
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: think this case scares the crap out of him, even
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: maybe more than some of the other ones, because this
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: goes at his identity, right? Even before he like took us,
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: sharp pivot into authoritarian politics, New York businessman was who
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: he was. All he branded himself was a New York businessman.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Here they're going to say, not as rich as he
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: said he was, complete and total fraud, and he can't
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: do business in New York anymore. And so I think
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: there is a real level of insecurity here. And he's
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: trying to be there to, I don't know, maybe he
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: thinks his presence can shape it, or he can stare
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: at the judge or do something. But I think he's
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: scared by this one.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: I don't want to assign strategy to anything Donald Trump does,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: but maybe it was instinct. And I think he's finding
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: a lot of value in always being on camera, talking
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: about how the system is against him and everything's corrupt.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: And it's served him well in the primary so far.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Which is a wild thing to say. For Donald Trump,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: every day is a Republican primary. That's why he knows
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: how to win a Republican primary. That's like all of
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: his politics are around winning a Republican primary. That's where
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: he feels most comfortable. I saw, did you see that
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: he raised $ 45. 5 million last quarter? Apparently $ 3 million of
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: that was just selling merch with his mugshot on it.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: $ 3 million they made. So he thinks there's some value
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: in this. He thinks there's value in just going in
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: front of the cameras and arguing his case to the
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: only jury he cares about, Republican voters.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: If either Ron DeSantis or Nikki Haley is able to
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: narrow this polling gap, do you think he's going to
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: commit extra crimes?
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Possibly. Yeah, probably. Yeah. He'll be demanding cameras in the
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: courtroom in the federal trials, even though cameras aren't supposed
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: to be in the courtroom. he'll probably fucking take the
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: stand and incriminate himself more.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: He's just turning himself in for other crimes we haven't
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: gotten to yet. He's like, you guys get me for
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: this emoluments thing?
• 30:04
  Speaker 5: Can we do that?
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: It was me. I shot Tupac. Also, by the way,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: the fundraising numbers. DeSantis raised $ 15 million to Trump's 45.5,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: but Trump has $ 36 million on hand to spend in
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: the primary. DeSantis has $ 5 million. Polls are getting worse
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: for him. He's now behind Nikki Haley in a lot
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: of these polls, especially the early state polls. And he's
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: moving his entire staff to Iowa. Seems like things aren't
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: going that well for our boy Ron DeSantis.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: No, the only person who's doing well in that campaign
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: is Jeff Rowe, who's the person who has all of
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: Ron DeSantis' money in his other pocket.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: Whenever you're moving your whole staff to Iowa and you're
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: camping out in Iowa, that's a red flag. Red flag.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there is.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: I can.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: I can think of at least two, maybe three campaigns
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: that made that exact move. And none of them ended
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: up as president.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's just I saw also today that RNC
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: insiders are talking about how to maybe change or forego
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: the rest of the debates because Trump isn't showing up.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: It's a sideshow. No one's getting close to him. I mean,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: he's going to be the fucking nominee. That's where we are.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you think that with his 50-point lead in the polls,
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: he might be that, in his multi-million dollar financial advantage,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: he might be the nominee? Yeah, it seems possible.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's it. I think that's it. Okay,
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: before we get to break, two quick housekeeping notes. As
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: you know, we're big fans of Kariuma. They make cool,
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• 32:24
  Speaker 1: high stakes november coming up and it might not be
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: the november you're thinking of the media hype has turned
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: to 2024 i guess we're part of the media hype
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: but that won't stop 2023 elections from having massive implications
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  Speaker 1: for abortion access voting rights and more from the virginia
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  Speaker 1: have got work to do in the next few weeks.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Visit votesaveamerica.com slash nooffyears to see how you can help. Okay,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: when we come back, I will talk to a former
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: aide who worked for Donald Trump and Mark Meadows in
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: the White House. Her new book is Enough. She testified
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: before the January 6th committee. When we come back, Cassidy Hutchinson.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Joining us here in studio, the star witness of the
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: January 6th hearings, who served as the top aide to
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Trump White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows. She's written
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: a new memoir called Enough. Cassidy Hutchinson, welcome to Pod
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Save America.
• 33:26
  Speaker 8: Thank you guys for having me.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: So I want to start by saying that, like most
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: of America, I first saw you when you testified before
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: the January 6th committee. It was obviously the right thing
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: to do, but just because something is obvious doesn't make
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: it easy. And so I have a lot of respect
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: and admiration for what you did. which came at great
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: risk to your future and even your personal safety. I
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: know you said you were nervous about returning to the
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: spotlight like this. What's it been like so far? And
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: has your nervousness been justified?
• 33:59
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I like to say I operate probably at a
• 34:01
  Speaker 8: constant level, like a level four of anxiety, which I
• 34:04
  Speaker 8: think it's, to me, it's a benefit.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for everything that you've gone through, I'd say that's
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: pretty good.
• 34:09
  Speaker 8: Over the last, it's been like a week and a
• 34:11
  Speaker 8: half since the book released. I had some time to
• 34:14
  Speaker 8: prepare myself for it just as I was writing the
• 34:17
  Speaker 8: book in collaboration with my fantastic collaborator, Mark Salter, who
• 34:21
  Speaker 8: helped me.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: Fantastic writer.
• 34:22
  Speaker 8: Fantastic writer, fantastic human, perfect person to help me write
• 34:26
  Speaker 8: this book as he was very never Trump from the beginning,
• 34:29
  Speaker 8: so got some very good sparring matches. But all for
• 34:32
  Speaker 8: the benefits, I hope and believe in the book. All
• 34:36
  Speaker 8: that said, with Mark's counsel too, I don't think I
• 34:40
  Speaker 8: ever really could have prepared myself for being in the
• 34:42
  Speaker 8: spotlight again. This is not something I ever saw myself doing,
• 34:46
  Speaker 8: but I realize and recognize the gravity of this moment.
• 34:49
  Speaker 8: And it's important to have voices and people like us,
• 34:53
  Speaker 8: hopefully that we can sit and have a diplomatic and
• 34:57
  Speaker 8: productive conversation, even though we might not politically agree on everything,
• 35:00
  Speaker 8: because there is a much bigger issue at stake and
• 35:03
  Speaker 8: that's our country and our democracy. So, you know, it's,
• 35:07
  Speaker 8: That said, it's been an adjustment. I don't think it'll
• 35:09
  Speaker 8: ever feel normal, but it's good.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: So I've talked to plenty of Trump voters. I'm related
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: to a few. You are the first Trump voter I've
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: talked to who's actually worked for him.
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: Really?
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:23
  Speaker 8: Ever urged on this podcast?
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: I think ever. I'm pretty sure ever. Like I said,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of never Trumpers.
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Trump voters I've sat with in focus groups. I know some,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: but no one has worked in the White House for
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump or in the campaign. So I'm not interested
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: in shaming you for that, but I really want to
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: try to understand it just with an eye towards figuring
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: out how we can all make sure he doesn't end
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: up in the White House again, which I know is
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: a goal you share. So just to start, what was
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: it about Trump at that first rally you went to
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: in April of 2017, I believe, that made you want
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: to work for him? Like you described him in the
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: book as, he talked about his magnetism, you said you
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: were transfixed. Like what was it in that rally?
• 36:14
  Speaker 8: You know, there's a long and a short answer. The
• 36:20
  Speaker 8: short answer is, at that moment at the first rally,
• 36:25
  Speaker 8: I didn't have in my mind, my goal is to
• 36:27
  Speaker 8: work for Donald Trump in the White House. I set
• 36:30
  Speaker 8: off to have a career in public service, I identified
• 36:34
  Speaker 8: with the Republican party and I had internships on Capitol
• 36:37
  Speaker 8: Hill that summer. That said though, I did vote for
• 36:39
  Speaker 8: him in 2016. I identified as a Republican, but I
• 36:43
  Speaker 8: grew up in a very apolitical family, but a blue
• 36:46
  Speaker 8: collar family. So being part of the Republican party made
• 36:49
  Speaker 8: sense to me. And I agreed with the platform. I
• 36:52
  Speaker 8: voted for him at that first Trump rally. I remember
• 36:57
  Speaker 8: being in the crowd and looking around It's so difficult
• 37:03
  Speaker 8: to describe because I also haven't been to a ton
• 37:05
  Speaker 8: of other politicians' rallies. But I was standing around and
• 37:10
  Speaker 8: just looking at not just him, but everybody around me.
• 37:13
  Speaker 8: And it was people that I felt like I recognized,
• 37:15
  Speaker 8: not because I knew them, but because I grew up
• 37:18
  Speaker 8: around people like them. And I saw that they saw
• 37:21
  Speaker 8: something in him. And then I felt pulled toward them.
• 37:26
  Speaker 8: And then I felt pulled towards him. And it was
• 37:29
  Speaker 8: almost this... sense of like, he is representing people like
• 37:36
  Speaker 8: my family. He is going to be the politician that
• 37:39
  Speaker 8: changes things. And it wasn't like I just fell in
• 37:43
  Speaker 8: love with the MAGA movement in that moment, but I,
• 37:46
  Speaker 8: I felt the allure and I felt the draw. And
• 37:48
  Speaker 8: I think that was the moments where my blinders sort
• 37:51
  Speaker 8: of went off. And I was looking back now at this,
• 37:57
  Speaker 8: I'm telling this as in that moment, um, where I
• 38:01
  Speaker 8: sort of just shut off the, what he is saying
• 38:04
  Speaker 8: about immigrants is wrong. That kind of, it didn't completely
• 38:10
  Speaker 8: go out of my mind, but it went into the
• 38:11
  Speaker 8: back of my mind because what I saw there and
• 38:13
  Speaker 8: felt there was that there was a politician that was
• 38:17
  Speaker 8: very abnormal in terms of like what we have seen
• 38:20
  Speaker 8: and experienced as a country. But I felt like he
• 38:24
  Speaker 8: was there for the right reasons at the time. And again,
• 38:27
  Speaker 8: this is, I'm not including my hindsight now, but I
• 38:29
  Speaker 8: also tried to write the book, in the present moment
• 38:33
  Speaker 8: because I wanted readers to be able to feel that
• 38:36
  Speaker 8: connection and at least try because it's difficult to describe
• 38:39
  Speaker 8: and it was difficult to write about and it's not
• 38:41
  Speaker 8: without shame.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, look, I mean, I asked this partly because
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: I've spent the last, uh, since 2016, 2015, like trying
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: to figure out what so many voters saw in him,
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: if not for, you know, there's many explanations out there, right?
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: You can look at, uh, people, voters with higher levels
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: of racial resentment, you know, are attracted to Trump. There's all,
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: but there's this, other people will say there's a working
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: class populist pitch. There's an anti-establishment pitch. There's a, I
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: was on The Apprentice and I'm a businessman, so I
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: can be successful pitch. And I think people's motivations are
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: complex and voters are complex and they believe all kinds
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: of different things. But I'm just like, I'm so curious
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: what it was for you. Like what part of the
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: message for you was like, oh, this is.
• 39:27
  Speaker 8: I think at first it really was, I mean, this
• 39:31
  Speaker 8: is such a good question. I've thought a lot about it.
• 39:34
  Speaker 8: It's hard to put into words. I think at first
• 39:36
  Speaker 8: it was really less about specific policy initiatives and it
• 39:42
  Speaker 8: was more about how he spoke to people and how
• 39:45
  Speaker 8: people felt they could relate to him. And, you know,
• 39:48
  Speaker 8: I would hear my parents or my relatives talk not
• 39:52
  Speaker 8: necessarily in admiration of the policies but talk in admiration
• 39:55
  Speaker 8: of how they felt represented for the first time in
• 39:57
  Speaker 8: their life like my my parents had never voted but
• 39:59
  Speaker 8: the first time they voted was for Donald Trump and
• 40:01
  Speaker 8: that was sort of a trend throughout and this is
• 40:04
  Speaker 8: my experience with my family but you know that he
• 40:06
  Speaker 8: he had that poll and it was I felt that
• 40:10
  Speaker 8: I could relate to it in a way but I
• 40:12
  Speaker 8: also at that point I was halfway through undergrad I
• 40:16
  Speaker 8: was My boyfriend at the time did not want to
• 40:18
  Speaker 8: be at that Trump rally with me. And he was
• 40:20
  Speaker 8: sitting there with Cassidy. He probably saw it happening.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: In my mind. Was he a Republican?
• 40:27
  Speaker 8: Yes, but not a Trump Republican.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: But not a Trump person.
• 40:30
  Speaker 8: Which is completely fine. There were not big disagreements at
• 40:35
  Speaker 8: that point about it. But no, and then as I interned,
• 40:40
  Speaker 8: so I went through two internships that summer on Capitol Hill.
• 40:43
  Speaker 8: One for Steve Scalise and second for Ted Cruz. I
• 40:45
  Speaker 8: applied for the Steve Scalise internship. I wanted to stay
• 40:50
  Speaker 8: on Capitol Hill, so I applied for every Senate office.
• 40:53
  Speaker 8: So it wasn't, you know, Ted Cruz had an opening.
• 40:55
  Speaker 8: I took the internship.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
• 40:56
  Speaker 8: Just to be clear. So it was once I also began, though,
• 41:00
  Speaker 8: to be exposed into the actual inner workings of Congress,
• 41:06
  Speaker 8: and Republicans at the time had the majority. It seemed...
• 41:11
  Speaker 8: normal and natural to me. That was my first real
• 41:13
  Speaker 8: exposure to politics. And I saw how House Republicans, at
• 41:16
  Speaker 8: least from my perspective, how they were working with him
• 41:19
  Speaker 8: to advance the administration's agenda and they were passing bills.
• 41:22
  Speaker 8: So it wasn't, you know, there wasn't much thought going
• 41:27
  Speaker 8: into the actual like nuances of the policies. Again, I'm
• 41:31
  Speaker 8: not trying to excuse anything, but I at the time
• 41:34
  Speaker 8: was 20. No, I was interested.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Because in the book you're like, I entered for Ted Cruz,
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: didn't like his politics. Steve Scalise you liked, but you
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: said he's more conservative than you were. But then you
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: said that Donald Trump was moderate in some ways.
• 41:51
  Speaker 8: When I say that, And I still believe this to
• 41:56
  Speaker 8: this day, and we could debate it if you would
• 41:57
  Speaker 8: like to, although I don't know how debating 2016, his
• 42:00
  Speaker 8: platform in 2016 is vastly different. But he did, in
• 42:05
  Speaker 8: my opinion, have policies that weren't appealing to, let's say,
• 42:10
  Speaker 8: Freedom Caucus members or appealing to the ultra right-wing conservatives.
• 42:14
  Speaker 8: He had some policies that were good. A lot of
• 42:18
  Speaker 8: them didn't agree with. And even in the first six months,
• 42:20
  Speaker 8: eight months throughout his presidency, a lot of the hard
• 42:23
  Speaker 8: right wingers didn't agree with.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 42:25
  Speaker 8: So, again, from a bird's eye view at that point, I.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: You know, like, look, I thought from just a political
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: perspective of like a political strategist, he tried to move
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: at least rhetorically to the center on like protecting Medicare
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: and Medicaid and Social Security. And like at one point
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: he said he was going to tax hedge fund people.
• 42:44
  Speaker 8: And so he did what he had to do at
• 42:45
  Speaker 8: points to just.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 42:49
  Speaker 8: Whether it was during an election or in Congress or
• 42:51
  Speaker 8: when he was in the Oval Office, he did what
• 42:53
  Speaker 8: he had to do. Donald Trump doesn't have a firm
• 42:57
  Speaker 8: policy platform. What I think did serve him well, I
• 43:00
  Speaker 8: was not on the 2016 campaign, but what I think
• 43:03
  Speaker 8: did serve him well is he had some sound voices
• 43:07
  Speaker 8: around him that understood Washington and understood what voters wanted
• 43:12
  Speaker 8: to hear. And he sometimes would listen to them, sometimes
• 43:16
  Speaker 8: would not.
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 43:18
  Speaker 8: You know, as he.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: Sometimes.
• 43:19
  Speaker 8: Well, we use that term very loosely. But as he
• 43:23
  Speaker 8: went through, obviously, the presidency, that sort of tapered off.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: So, like, I totally understand just being a Republican, right? Like,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: I worked for Obama in 2008. After the campaign, I
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: made friends with a lot of McCain staffers, still friends
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: with some of them. We'd argue about politics. It was fine.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: I am very proud of the race we ran against
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Mitt Romney in 2012, though.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: I also have like a ton of respect for him,
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: especially of what he's done over the last couple of years,
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: as I know you have respect for him too. But
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: like even setting aside 2016 for Trump, like in just
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: the first year of his presidency, there was the travel ban,
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: family separation, Charlottesville, which was like the cause of the
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: first set of resignations. And then, you know, there's all
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: the stories around that Gary Cohn, economic advisor, was thinking
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: about leaving too. Like, how did you think about that
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: first year? is you were deciding to intern there in
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: 2018 and then later work there in 2019. Did those
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: incidents give you pause or policies give you pause?
• 44:25
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm putting myself back in that moment just for clarity. Sure.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: I'm dying to understand it. That's why I asked.
• 44:35
  Speaker 8: After I interned on Capitol Hill, I fell in love
• 44:37
  Speaker 8: with the institution. And that's why I wanted to stay.
• 44:41
  Speaker 8: I felt... in love with the house. I interned in
• 44:43
  Speaker 8: the Senate, realized that I fell in love with the house.
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: I saw you. I read the Senate. Senate feels pretty slow.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, we felt the same thing
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: when we were in there.
• 44:53
  Speaker 8: Did you ever work in the Senate?
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I worked for Obama his first couple years in
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: the Senate. And then he was like, yeah, this place is.
• 44:59
  Speaker 8: See, the house is fun. Things move fast. I like the...
• 45:04
  Speaker 8: Things are different now. But regardless, another conversation.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: I had.
• 45:11
  Speaker 8: In my opinion, great mentors who I still believe are
• 45:16
  Speaker 8: not ultra partisan, aren't never Trumpers, but aren't pro Trump necessarily.
• 45:21
  Speaker 8: Like they're, they're institutionalists. They want to seek the institution function.
• 45:25
  Speaker 8: And after I spoke with them and I was thinking
• 45:29
  Speaker 8: about like, do I go to a think tank next summer?
• 45:31
  Speaker 8: Because again, I did not grow up in a political environment,
• 45:33
  Speaker 8: but my singular goal with graduating college was how do
• 45:36
  Speaker 8: I get a job in DC? They knew that I
• 45:39
  Speaker 8: loved the institution and they're like, well, the Office of
• 45:42
  Speaker 8: Legislative Affairs at the White House would be the best
• 45:46
  Speaker 8: option for you because you are going to see how
• 45:49
  Speaker 8: the two branches work together. So it was in that moment,
• 45:52
  Speaker 8: I was like, okay, that's my next goal. So for me,
• 45:55
  Speaker 8: it was just very, I had one thing, I checked
• 45:58
  Speaker 8: the boxes, like, okay, what do I have to do next?
• 46:01
  Speaker 8: So I didn't really have any qualms about interning in
• 46:05
  Speaker 8: the Office of Legislative Affairs under Trump. And perhaps I
• 46:10
  Speaker 8: should have But, you know, even looking back now, I,
• 46:15
  Speaker 8: and I'm not excusing anything that happened in the first year,
• 46:17
  Speaker 8: but I think, you know, I used to say I
• 46:19
  Speaker 8: was in the right place at the wrong time. I
• 46:21
  Speaker 8: don't know if I was in the wrong place at
• 46:23
  Speaker 8: the wrong time or the wrong place at the right time. But,
• 46:26
  Speaker 8: you know, I think anybody that has the opportunity to
• 46:30
  Speaker 8: intern or work in government or in the White House,
• 46:33
  Speaker 8: I mean, you've been there. It's an incredible place.
• 46:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 46:36
  Speaker 8: But I also, I learned so much in that internship
• 46:39
  Speaker 8: that wasn't just, you know, how to be the slinger
• 46:43
  Speaker 8: for Trump's policies. It's how does the White House actually
• 46:47
  Speaker 8: work with Congress? Because at that time, too, my goal
• 46:49
  Speaker 8: was to get a job back in leadership. I never
• 46:52
  Speaker 8: thought that I would get hired at the White House
• 46:54
  Speaker 8: after I graduated.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: But when you were, like, when you were seeing all those,
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: what was your reaction when you, like, read about all
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: those stories in that first year?
• 47:01
  Speaker 8: I thought, and I felt it was wrong.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: Were you just like, that was crazy?
• 47:03
  Speaker 8: Yeah, but I, again, it, Putting myself back into 20-year-old,
• 47:09
  Speaker 8: I wasn't really putting all that much thought into it.
• 47:13
  Speaker 8: And I wish I had. And this kind of gets
• 47:18
  Speaker 8: a little deep philosophically with myself, but I, and I've
• 47:22
  Speaker 8: gotten some heat for this. I'll try to explain it
• 47:24
  Speaker 8: a little bit better. But sometimes I do wish I had,
• 47:28
  Speaker 8: really wish I had, because I think that I would
• 47:31
  Speaker 8: have avoided a lot of this. But at the same time,
• 47:35
  Speaker 8: I don't regret my tenure in the administration because it
• 47:39
  Speaker 8: brought me to this point. That's why I'm sitting here
• 47:41
  Speaker 8: with you. And I'm not saying that what I did,
• 47:45
  Speaker 8: by any means, I'm not saying what I did and
• 47:48
  Speaker 8: how I came forward was courageous or brave or anything.
• 47:50
  Speaker 8: But what I am saying is I hope that there
• 47:53
  Speaker 8: will always be people in the institutions that have some
• 47:57
  Speaker 8: sense of moral integrity and ethics. And I do worry,
• 48:00
  Speaker 8: looking back, that if I had put more thought into
• 48:01
  Speaker 8: it or had that hindsight, I would have ran for
• 48:05
  Speaker 8: the hills. And maybe that would have been better. I
• 48:07
  Speaker 8: don't know. But it helped, in a sense, having the
• 48:11
  Speaker 8: blinders up because I was able to just do the
• 48:16
  Speaker 8: job and accept it for what it was and be
• 48:18
  Speaker 8: a person on the inside that was a moderate Republican.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I believe I will pat myself on the back.
• 48:26
  Speaker 8: I believe I have some sense of semblance of integrity
• 48:28
  Speaker 8: and ethical compass, but that can also be debated.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Look, if you listen to old episodes of this podcast,
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: you know, in those days we would yell a lot
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: about Dina Powell and Gary Cohn and like the Committee
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: to Save America and all that kind of stuff because
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: I was like, why? I don't think that they're doing much.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: And yet, like, if they all left and went in
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: front of a microphone, then maybe something would have happened,
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: you know? I will say I get that it's more
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: complicated than it seemed at first because now that we're
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: facing the prospect of a second Trump presidency, clearly the
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: administration would not be staffed with people like you or
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: people like Dina or any institutionalists. Forget about moderate Republicans,
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: just like conservative Republicans who care about the institution.
• 49:18
  Speaker 8: One because I would hope that people would I hope
• 49:22
  Speaker 8: would hope that a few people would slip in but
• 49:25
  Speaker 8: one day I was there at the end like I
• 49:29
  Speaker 8: know what second term plans were I I don't want
• 49:32
  Speaker 8: to catastrophize or hypothesize about exactly who would be there
• 49:37
  Speaker 8: because I hope to God that in this next year
• 49:39
  Speaker 8: Collectively as a country, people can come together and we
• 49:42
  Speaker 8: can do everything we can to make sure that he
• 49:44
  Speaker 8: is not the Republican nominee on that ticket. But that
• 49:48
  Speaker 8: being said, I think that they would vet people so
• 49:53
  Speaker 8: extensively that people wouldn't have the opportunity to slip in
• 49:58
  Speaker 8: and be ethical voices.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: Vet them for like you're 100% loyal to Trump or
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: your act.
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: Yes, correct.
• 50:03
  Speaker 8: And even like towards the end of the administration, this
• 50:05
  Speaker 8: was publicly reported and it's also been publicly reported since.
• 50:09
  Speaker 8: I believe it's Schedule F, but how the going through
• 50:12
  Speaker 8: and firing the career institutions, like that's undemocratic. Like it's
• 50:17
  Speaker 8: also like, why are we even debating this? Like this
• 50:19
  Speaker 8: is not an issue that should even be on anybody's radar.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And this is why your book is great to
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: read because when you read it and some of it
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: is reliving it and there's a lot of new detail too,
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: you're like, oh, if it was like, and I imagine like,
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: you know, Rudy Giuliani is AG, and my pillow guy
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: is the Secretary of Commerce. I don't know, like it's
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: fucking wild.
• 50:42
  Speaker 8: I talk to people, I try to talk to people
• 50:44
  Speaker 8: about too, and I think it's, there needs to be
• 50:49
  Speaker 8: voices like ours that will call attention to it. I'm
• 50:52
  Speaker 8: trying to think of the most effective way to do it,
• 50:54
  Speaker 8: but Donald Trump would be president, yes, but he is
• 50:58
  Speaker 8: not the end of the problem. If Donald Trump was
• 51:00
  Speaker 8: to disappear tomorrow, if he were just to drop off
• 51:02
  Speaker 8: the face of the earth or just drop out of
• 51:04
  Speaker 8: the race altogether, The issue is still going to exist. Now,
• 51:09
  Speaker 8: next term presidency to be debated. But if there were
• 51:14
  Speaker 8: to be a second Trump term presidency, there's not going
• 51:19
  Speaker 8: to be people, institutions willing for multiple reasons. I mean, one,
• 51:25
  Speaker 8: I can't think of many people that I respect that
• 51:26
  Speaker 8: would want to put themselves in that line of fire,
• 51:29
  Speaker 8: knowing what happened at the end and even just how
• 51:32
  Speaker 8: the administration unraveled in the final few years. But from
• 51:37
  Speaker 8: also a very practical matter, I was extremely fortunate at
• 51:41
  Speaker 8: a very low and dark place in my life to
• 51:45
  Speaker 8: have people that gave me a second chance. My legal
• 51:50
  Speaker 8: bills would be insurmountable if I didn't have that opportunity.
• 51:56
  Speaker 8: And I'm very fortunate, very fortunate for it. And that's
• 51:59
  Speaker 8: why I also feel this need to talk to people
• 52:01
  Speaker 8: about it. But there's the point of who would it be?
• 52:06
  Speaker 8: But it's also like, why? Why would you do that?
• 52:09
  Speaker 8: Because his loyalties are to himself. Yeah.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: You write about various turning points for you and how
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: you viewed Trump and the White House. When was the
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: first time you remember thinking there might be something different
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: and wrong with this administration and this president? Like, when
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: did you start getting the real doubts?
• 52:28
  Speaker 8: There were several times. I'm trying to think of I mean,
• 52:33
  Speaker 8: the first time that I really remember having this jarring
• 52:37
  Speaker 8: feeling of there is something more here was the night
• 52:44
  Speaker 8: that we had a rally in Rome, Georgia. And I
• 52:48
  Speaker 8: write about this, not extensively, but I write about it
• 52:51
  Speaker 8: in great detail in the book. But essentially, we had
• 52:55
  Speaker 8: a rally in Rome, Georgia, and a campaign official had
• 52:59
  Speaker 8: asked me to go into the middle of this massive
• 53:01
  Speaker 8: crowd There was a little shack and to retrieve this
• 53:05
  Speaker 8: man named Tony Bobulinski, who was Hunter Biden's former business partner.
• 53:08
  Speaker 8: Tony Bobulinski had been publicly seen with Trump at a
• 53:13
  Speaker 8: rally in Nashville or at the debate in Nashville a
• 53:15
  Speaker 8: few weeks prior. And I immediately, I can't describe it
• 53:18
  Speaker 8: as anything else other than I just had this really
• 53:22
  Speaker 8: like nauseating feeling inside of me. And again, no real reason,
• 53:27
  Speaker 8: but I pressed and I write about in detail in
• 53:30
  Speaker 8: the book, but I kept pressing, like, this is not
• 53:32
  Speaker 8: a good, why is Mark doing this? I don't want
• 53:33
  Speaker 8: Mark to do this. This is not a good idea.
• 53:35
  Speaker 8: If he's been seen publicly. So it was just this, like,
• 53:38
  Speaker 8: I felt that I knew a lot that was going on.
• 53:43
  Speaker 8: And I, in some ways, did. But that was the
• 53:45
  Speaker 8: first time where I was like, okay, I had been
• 53:48
  Speaker 8: shoving a lot of the red flags in the back
• 53:50
  Speaker 8: of my mind. Like, a lot of our COVID policies,
• 53:52
  Speaker 8: our COVID messaging, how we were handling.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: The Herman Cain story that you tell, too.
• 53:57
  Speaker 8: And all very different. should have been very jarring experiences,
• 54:01
  Speaker 8: but you know, when you're living and you, you've lived
• 54:05
  Speaker 8: that life in the white house, I'm, I hope it
• 54:07
  Speaker 8: wasn't as chaotic as ours, but it was like one
• 54:11
  Speaker 8: hour was like a week sometimes.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: That is true.
• 54:13
  Speaker 8: And that's also, I think like, yeah, I'm not excusing anything,
• 54:16
  Speaker 8: but like sometimes I'd go in with a to-do list
• 54:18
  Speaker 8: for Mark with seven things and I would maybe get
• 54:20
  Speaker 8: half of something done. So like, Things would, you're in
• 54:25
  Speaker 8: survival mode. Right, and you're in survival mode.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: How big of a deal the day's events are.
• 54:30
  Speaker 8: Because it's also, you're doing a job, right? Like, so it's,
• 54:32
  Speaker 8: it is, I always tried to keep that perspective and
• 54:34
  Speaker 8: that hindsight, but it is, I was there to do
• 54:37
  Speaker 8: a job and I had a role and I had
• 54:38
  Speaker 8: to fulfill that role. And if I didn't, then something
• 54:41
  Speaker 8: would happen. But Tony Bobulinski was really the first, like, okay,
• 54:46
  Speaker 8: this is, there's something very shady. And whether it was
• 54:49
  Speaker 8: or not, I don't know. I just had that feeling.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: So the, the election happens and like a week afterwards,
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: there's this like now famous quote that a senior Republican
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: official gives the Washington Post about Trump. And it, the
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: quote is, what is the downside for humoring him for
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: this little bit of time? No one seriously thinks the
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: results will change. He went golfing this weekend. It's not
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: like he's plotting how to prevent Joe Biden from taking
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: power on January 20th. And like, we go back to this.
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: Quote a lot.
• 55:22
  Speaker 8: Did the committee discover who said that?
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: No. And I've asked like Ashley Parker too because it
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: was her piece. But like, you know, no one reveals
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: who that is. No one reveals who that is. But
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: it's like, is that, is that how you felt at
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: the time? Is that how other people on the way?
• 55:36
  Speaker 8: I immediately, I immediately knew that we lost. I was like,
• 55:41
  Speaker 8: it's over. And because I immediately went into, well, I
• 55:45
  Speaker 8: also had COVID, but went into like, you know, what's next?
• 55:48
  Speaker 8: And I had, the president had talked to me about
• 55:51
  Speaker 8: even before the election about you. If the Democrats steal
• 55:53
  Speaker 8: this election from us, will you move to Florida with me?
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: But.
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: What an offer.
• 56:02
  Speaker 8: To be discussed.
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
• 56:04
  Speaker 8: But, so there was a 10 day gap where I,
• 56:09
  Speaker 8: Mark Meadows and I had COVID. So I was out.
• 56:12
  Speaker 8: When I came back, there was a, it felt different.
• 56:18
  Speaker 8: And I couldn't quite place my finger on it, but I,
• 56:21
  Speaker 8: I knew it wasn't just going to end. I didn't
• 56:25
  Speaker 8: think it was going to end the way it did.
• 56:26
  Speaker 8: And to be clear about things too, I think when
• 56:29
  Speaker 8: there is a close election, whether it's state level, at
• 56:32
  Speaker 8: the congressional level, Senate, House, Senate, President, no matter what
• 56:36
  Speaker 8: it is, candidates have the right to file lawsuits. But
• 56:40
  Speaker 8: it's when you are defying what the courts are saying
• 56:43
  Speaker 8: and you're defying our rule of law.
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 56:46
  Speaker 8: And then the administration was pushing it and pushing it
• 56:50
  Speaker 8: and pushing it. That's when I sort of started to
• 56:54
  Speaker 8: gain a sense of, okay, there's something.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: That's not normal. He's not golfing and ready to.
• 56:58
  Speaker 8: Leave at the 20th. And I never thought that he
• 57:00
  Speaker 8: would give up easily. But I don't, you know, I
• 57:05
  Speaker 8: can't speak for others. I didn't see it ever getting
• 57:08
  Speaker 8: to the point that it did at that juncture. I
• 57:12
  Speaker 8: doubt many people did. But, you know, I think the
• 57:17
  Speaker 8: people that may have have avoided subpoenas or pled the fifth.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: You write that even though you felt strongly at the
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: time that he should concede, you said, I didn't blame
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: the president for any of it yet. I didn't want
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: to blame him. Why is that?
• 57:43
  Speaker 8: Because I felt as staff, and so I felt working
• 57:47
  Speaker 8: for Meadows. When I took the job with Meadows, I
• 57:48
  Speaker 8: was clear. I work for the chief of staff who
• 57:50
  Speaker 8: happens to be Mark Meadows, not Mark Meadows. And to me,
• 57:54
  Speaker 8: that was a very clear distinction. Not because I, you know,
• 57:58
  Speaker 8: I liked Mark, but I worked for the office.
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 58:02
  Speaker 8: Saying that, I felt that as staff, it was our
• 58:06
  Speaker 8: job to provide him with the information and counsel that
• 58:11
  Speaker 8: he needed to make sound decisions. And if we were
• 58:16
  Speaker 8: not keeping the floodgates up and letting people in or
• 58:21
  Speaker 8: letting him be privy to conversations, again, this is my
• 58:24
  Speaker 8: perspective at the time, it was our fault.
• 58:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 58:28
  Speaker 8: He was not receiving the best advice from the staff
• 58:31
  Speaker 8: that should be working in his best interests.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: It's so wild to think because even like from, we
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: never had anything like this, but like when, like I
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: knew if I felt responsible, if I wrote a shitty speech,
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: which I did and I was like, I didn't spend
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: enough time on that. That's my fault. But like if
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: Barack Obama was like going to go out to the
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: cameras and say something stupid and, Or make a mistake, which,
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: you know, he did. I was like, well, dude, that's
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: on you. That's not our fault. There is a.
• 59:04
  Speaker 8: Mentality in the Trump administration, though, and around Donald Trump's circles.
• 59:08
  Speaker 8: And this is, again, I'm speaking as somebody.
• 59:10
  Speaker 4: Who I.
• 59:12
  Speaker 8: Was not a never Trumper. I was not somebody that
• 59:14
  Speaker 8: he would have considered a rhino. I was very much
• 59:18
  Speaker 8: so on Team Trump. And this is from my perspective now, too, though.
• 59:23
  Speaker 8: And I knew this at the time, but much more
• 59:26
  Speaker 8: heightened now. The sense of loyalty and dedication to him
• 59:33
  Speaker 8: is not normal, but it felt normal at the time.
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: Well, it's the dedication to him, but it's also everyone's
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: like treating him. This is about loyalty. And it's like
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: treating him like a child though.
• 59:43
  Speaker 8: A mix of a child and sort of this divine being.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: Well, that's what I'm trying to say. On one hand,
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: everyone's like worships him. On the other hand, it's all like, oh,
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: what are we supposed to do? We just got to.
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: We've got to keep– I mean, how much good advice
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: did he get? Like, Bill Barr is telling him there
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: was no fraud. Like, all the people around him are
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: giving him all this advice. But then it's like, oh, well,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: he happened to run into Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: And so, therefore, we've got to be like, oh, shit. Like,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: you guys should have kept Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: away forever? Like, how would you have done that?
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 8: Again, questions that I– I wish I had better responses
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 8: to it. I mean, Rudy's a separate... Rudy's been in
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 8: his life for a very long time. But I did.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 8: And I would talk to Mark about it. I was like,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 8: we can't be letting these people around him. Mark would say.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 8: Sometimes he would agree, but sometimes he would say, well,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 8: the president wants to talk to them. We're going to
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 8: have these meetings. But I felt this responsibility. And that
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 8: was a big reason why I wanted to go to
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 8: Mar-a-Lago with him afterwards. It was because I... Yes, while
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 8: we were filing lawsuits... And all that was fine. There
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 8: still were the casts of characters coming in. And I
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 8: was privy to a lot. I wasn't privy to everything.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 8: But I also could see a very clear picture of Mr.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 8: Trump going to Florida in his post-presidential life at the
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 8: time predicting that he would still be a force in
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 8: Republican politics and at the time wanting there to still
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 8: be sound and reasonable voices around him.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to ask that because, like, there's
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: this heart-wrenching scene at the night of January 6th where
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: you have a phone call with your mom and she's, like,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: begging you not to go to Florida.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 8: She never wanted me to go to Florida.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: And it's, like, and January 6th has just happened and you're, like,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: I have to go. I've already committed. The boss needs
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: good people around him. The only reason today happened is
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: because we let bad people, crazy people around him. I
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: need to try to fix. Like, I was, like, what
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: are you trying to fix at that point? He's done.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 8: At that point, like, again, I... At the time, it was...
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 8: if there's anything to preserve with his legacy, that's, we
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 8: need to try to do that. But it also, from
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 8: the bigger picture, you know, I had, I.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: Knew, I.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 8: Would say with great confidence, 98 to 99, 98 to
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 8: 100% of every Republican House and Senate member. I'd say
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 8: a greater, maybe 65 to 70% of Democrats in both chambers.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 8: So I had the connections. I was predicting that he, unfortunately,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 8: would still be a force in Republican politics. And if
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 8: I could be there, I knew that they trusted me
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 8: because I had built the reputation with them. And I
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 8: built a trusting relationship with a lot of members on
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 8: both sides of the aisle. If I was down there,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 8: at the time, I felt I might be able to help.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 8: I might be able to bring some might be able
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 8: to rationalize some of this for them and make sure
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 8: that things don't go completely awry. Again, I'm also somebody,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 8: I realized this in the last year or so, I
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 8: put a lot of blame on myself for things, which
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 8: isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there were no adults
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 8: in the room. And I am an adult. I'm very
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 8: much so an adult, but I don't ever want to
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 8: be judged for my gender or my age. I want
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 8: to be judged for my competence and what I have
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 8: or have not achieved. And I'm very candid also about
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 8: the mistakes that I've made, I think. You can call
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 8: me out if I haven't.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: But I.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: No, look, my reaction reading a lot of the book
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: was you did seem like the adult in the room
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: with a lot of crazies. And I was wondering, I'm like, well,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: she certainly seems like the adult in the room. Like,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: did this not all raise a bunch of flags? Like,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: before that? Or was it just, like, flags that you
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: were like, yeah, these are some crazy people and, like,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: I'll work to fix it?
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 8: Late November... through mid to right before Christmas to around
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 8: like probably December 17th. It was red flags, but this
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 8: is going to be over. But again, I didn't have
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 8: this like January 6th electoral college get certified. Like no
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 8: concept of this at all.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: No, I remember reading a lot of pieces about like,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: he's going to stay and there could be a coup
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: and blah, blah, blah. And even I at the time
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: was like, look, I'm pretty nervous about all this. And like,
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: we got to get to January 20th, but like, I
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: don't see how this is going to, like, I wasn't,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm a partisan Democrat.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 8: December 18th was the big, bigger turning point for me in, okay,
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 8: things are starting to get dark.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 8: And that was the night of the meeting that started
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 8: in the Oval Office with Mike Flynn, Sidney Powell, Patrick Byrne,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 8: who was the former or current CEO of Overstock.com, pushing
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 8: for him to invoke the Insurrection Act or martial law.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 8: which then carried up to the Yellow Oval in the
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 8: residence that night and went past midnight. So things started
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 8: to feel really dark after that. So then I started
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 8: to tune in a little bit more. But again, January 6th,
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 8: I'm not excusing any of it at all, at all.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 8: I look back and I wish that I had done more.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 8: And I live with that regret every single day of
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 8: my life. But again, there are still things going on.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 8: We are working to pass the NDAA. We were working,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 8: it was more than just election stuff. We were also
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 8: still trying to keep the gears moving. Like there were
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 8: some people that were trying to start transition process. So there,
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 8: you know, there, it wasn't like it was a huge
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 8: and massive focus of, and took way too much attention
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 8: and resources from staff who should not have been dealing
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 8: with all of that. But there were other things that
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 8: I also was doing to try to keep myself and
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 8: my job functioning.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: So, you make the decision to testify and the second
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: set of testimony, and then go to the January 6th committee. And,
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: and now you've sort of turned on Trump and Trump world.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: Now that you look back, because we're talking a lot
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: about what you thought at the time, now that you're
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: looking back, like, I don't, like you said, it's not
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: like you're renouncing all of your conservative positions. That's your
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: political beliefs, right? But like, When you look at the
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: Republican Party today and you think about the Republican Party
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: that you wish would be the reality, what does that
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: party look like and who's in that party?
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 8: I've also gotten heat for this, so hopefully I can
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 8: explain this a little bit. Feel free to prod. I
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 8: do still consider myself a Republican in principle. I do
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 8: not identify or associate with any part of the Republican
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 8: Party that is what I consider the Trump Republican Party,
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 8: the MAGA, whatever you want to call it, it is
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 8: technically the same Republican Party. I do not personally believe
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 8: it is. I am holding on to hope that we can,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 8: you know, I strongly believe, and Speaker Pelosi has also
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 8: spoken on this, we are designed, in theory, to have
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 8: a two-party system that requires a strong Democratic Party and
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 8: a strong Republican Party, or whatever you want to call them.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, healthy.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 8: Yes, where we can sit and have, like, I look
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 8: forward to a day where we can sit and not
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 8: have to talk about the extremism of what the Republican
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 8: Party has turned to. I hope that we can get
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 8: back to a place, you know, it's never, I don't
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 8: say never, it's not in the next year going to
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 8: go back to a place where it was in 2000
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 8: or like the McCain Republican party that, that, you know,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 8: I don't know we can ever get back to that place,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 8: but also the democratic party has evolved beyond what it
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 8: was in 2002.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: So it's parties change.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 8: But you know, I, with that said, if Trump has
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 8: a strong, if, if Trump is the nominee, the Republican
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 8: nominee next year, I, I haven't decided whether I will
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 8: turn in my Republican card, but I think there's a
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 8: much greater chance that I will not associate myself with
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 8: the Republican Party anymore because that, to me, will be
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 8: the turning point maybe and should have been a long
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 8: time ago or maybe should have been the day I testified.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 8: But I still hold on to hope that we can
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 8: have a functioning two-party system, but it's going to take
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 8: people that believe in the agenda to get it back
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 8: to that place.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: You said it was a big if. I wish it
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: was a big if.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 8: I mean, his full number. I hate to doomsday hypothesize
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 8: about it because I really think that the closest he
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 8: should ever get to the Oval Office again is when
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 8: he goes to the Prettyman Courthouse in Washington, D.C. for
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 8: his trial. He belongs nowhere near the Oval Office, the
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 8: White House, anywhere. But he is innocent until proven guilty.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: Right, of course.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 8: But he just does he does not belong and but
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 8: i don't want to hype because i we all should
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 8: be doing everything we can to make sure that's.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: Well you know look i've i've been spending the first
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: part of this being like why did it take you
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: so long kind of thing but now i'm going to
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: ask like what is going on with everyone else like
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: you've watched these republican primary debates like why aren't more
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: Republican politicians and staffers and strategists breaking with him still now? Like,
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: and what, what, because you worked with these people and
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: you know them, like, what do you think is going
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: on in the heads of like DeSantis staffers, Nikki Haley staffers,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: Pence staffers, right? Like all these, you know, I mean, I, I'm.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 8: Largely cut off from Republican circles in some ways. I,
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 8: I also spent the last year largely in isolation. Uh,
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 8: for practical and security matters, but also because I was
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 8: working on, well, only really spent anyway. But I can't
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 8: climb into the psyches of those staffers. But what I
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 8: will say pertaining to my experience, at least, I was
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 8: very candid after January 6th about it being our, meaning
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 8: the administration's fault, not Antifa, not Nancy Pelosi. It was
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 8: our fault. I was not shy about that. One of
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 8: my best friends in the administration was Alyssa Farrah Griffin.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 8: She left in early December because she saw where things
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 8: were going. January 7th, Alyssa came out and sharply denounced
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 8: what happened on January 6th. And part of me was
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 8: really ticked off at her about it because in my
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 8: mind at the time, it was she promised to be loyal.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 8: But there's also this part that was a little bit
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 8: more subconscious, but I also was able to recognize it
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 8: where I was sort of envious of her because I
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 8: saw that she was doing something that felt impossible. And
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 8: wrapping that into the year and a half that I
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 8: spent with this moral tug of war and also just
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 8: very limited financial resources to retain my own attorney from
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 8: the onset of being subpoenaed, I also was afraid because
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 8: I saw people like Alyssa who in my opinion, took
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 8: a very courageous stand, like Liz Cheney, like Adam Kinzinger,
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 8: like the 10 House Republicans who voted to impeach him.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 8: And I saw what they were dealing with. And it
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 8: was sort of like, you're damned if you do and
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 8: you're damned if you don't. So it was easier to
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 8: stay quiet and be complicit in it. And again, I
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 8: say that with shame. Yeah, no. But they, I sort of,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 8: I accept it and I thank people and they say
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 8: that I was brave and courageous, but I wouldn't be
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 8: in this position had people not set the example. before
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 8: me you know i i was there and it was
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 8: my obligation i was subpoenaed and i swore an oath
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 8: and i was ashamed and disgusted with myself that i
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 8: ever ever lost sight of.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: That um do you think they're afraid of a second.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 8: Yeah so i um you know so all that said
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 8: you know i i can't climb into their psyches i
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 8: can speak from my experience i would anticipate or i
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 8: would expect some of them might be afraid of just
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 8: breaking because the opportunities do seem bleak it doesn't really
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 8: feel like there's a home. And if you feel like
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 8: you're going to get beat up by the left and
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 8: then chastised by the right, like, but you still care
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 8: about the country, like where, where do you really fall?
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 8: I think some of them are opportunists that don't want
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 8: to take a stand in case he is the nominee
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 8: and they want to be able to work for him.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 8: Or if their candidate might be a VP, you know,
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 8: I can't climb into all the psyches, but there, there
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 8: is something there that's, you know, it's this, the selfishness
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 8: of the trajectory of how a lot of, My former
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 8: colleagues or just people in general that are working on
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 8: these campaigns aren't willing to at least adhere to democratic principles.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 8: It's not about a man. It's not about this movement.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 8: It's not even about the base. The base is being fooled.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 8: They're not being represented. And I would hope that we
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 8: could get somebody on the ticket. But the debate a
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 8: couple weeks ago, almost all of the candidates on stage
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 8: raised their hand at base. When Brett Mayer asked if
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 8: he was convicted.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not just indicted, like convicted felon.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 8: Yeah, convicted felon of violating and obstructing the Constitution of
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 8: the United States. Like, that is disqualifying. And if it
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 8: were Democrats on that stage that did the same thing,
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 8: you know that the right-wing media would go after them.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, they're doing it already.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 8: If there were two people on that stage who raised
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 8: their hands, it was Chris Christie and Asa Hutchinson. Asa
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 8: Hutchinson wasn't on the second debate stage. I think Chris
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 8: Christie's great. I don't think he is presidential material. I,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 8: but I, I admire that he is willing to take
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 8: that stand right now. Yeah. It's just, it seems like that,
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 8: but it's a movement from the ground up and absolutely.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 8: But you know, but when you live in a culture
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 8: where as Republicans that are living in this culture of
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 8: they're getting away with evading subpoenas or not testifying truthfully
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 8: and honestly, or pleading false memory or pleading the fifth,
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 8: when that is normalized and, you're seen as heroic or
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 8: you're seen as doing the right thing. There's not really
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 8: an incentive to do otherwise if you're being lionized by
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 8: the people that you're looking up to and that you're
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 8: relying on for employment. Again, I'm not agreeing with any
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 8: of it at all.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, you've said that, which I think is
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: very admirable, that you want to spend the next year,
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: year and a couple months, making sure that he doesn't
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: get back to the White House. What are you thinking? Like,
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: what arguments would you make to people your age who
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: might be considering working on his campaign or in the
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: White House? What arguments are you making to, like, people
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: that you might still talk to in Republican politics or just,
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: you know, you have a platform and you're speaking out? Like,
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: what do you think can reach people that were like you?
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 4: Still trying to figure that out. No, but in all honesty,
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 4: and I hate to plug the book because I... You
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 4: don't even need to buy the book. You go to
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 4: your local library. I say this because I would appreciate
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 4: to listen to my story, to listen to what I
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 4: have to say. I'm not asking for anyone to believe me.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 4: I hope that by asking people to listen, it'll at
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 4: least create a thought process and make people believe. think
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 4: about the impact of their actions because there was a
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 4: time where I felt like maybe it isn't my responsibility
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 4: to speak to all of this. There should be the
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 4: quote-unquote adults in the room, the men, many more years
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 4: my senior, men like Rudy Giuliani who was born during.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 8: World War II, I just would like to add, who are,
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 8: in my opinion, not doing the right thing. But again,
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 8: in any.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 8: Way that I can just try to reach people, whether
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 8: it's through my book, which I, I, I tried to
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 8: be as honest and as raw and vulnerable in my
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 8: personal life and also in my political life because it,
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 8: you know, there is a story to be told here.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 8: And I think it required a lot of.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: Thoughts.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 8: You know, I knew what I was doing was wrong
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 8: on a subconscious and also conscious level, but I also
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 8: was excusing it. And it took, a lot to get
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 8: me to the point where I am and I also
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 8: don't want I am here because I had I mean
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 8: truly like not to bring religion into it but like
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 8: angels that came and I did work for a second
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 8: chance but like just really incredible people that didn't owe
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 8: me anything or didn't have to believe in me or
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 8: didn't have to grant me this opportunity not even to
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 8: testify but to tell my story like I didn't feel
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 8: deserving of that but I have that now and I
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 8: think by listening to my story, like I want to
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 8: create an environment where either people feel like they can
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 8: talk to me or they can relate to it or
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 8: it provokes them to think about what they're doing and
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 8: how they may or may not be complicit or they
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 8: might have the blinders up. And also like there's a
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 8: place for them. It's, I don't want to say come
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 8: back home, but like there's a place that's about decency
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 8: and it's about standing up for our country and our democracy.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 8: And again, like I I want to get back to
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 8: a place where we could sit. I have an event
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 8: on Monday at Politics and Prose talking about all of this.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 8: And Jamie Raskin is the moderator for the event. We
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 8: can have conversations because we don't just need to debate
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 8: insane Trump policies. But I hope that we can get
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 8: back to that place.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I mean, me too. It's just, we got
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: him in the way right now.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 8: Well, him in the way, but it's also, again, like
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 8: I said earlier, if he were to disappear... And we
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 8: see it with what's happening in the House right now.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 8: If he were to disappear tomorrow or just whatever, the
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 8: movement doesn't go with him. It doesn't... We don't just...
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 8: Normalcy isn't just restored. We need to elect responsible people
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 8: to government. We need to elect people who have integrity
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 8: and character and care about our country and constitution. And
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 8: to do that, we need.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 5: To do.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 8: educate people and to have people listen. And I think
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 8: one thing that was sort of a disadvantage for me,
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 8: at least the way I saw it at the time
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 8: was like, okay, there's the anti-Trump voices in the media
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 8: and online or whatnot, but it doesn't really feel welcoming
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 8: because you just sort of feel chastised for believing in
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 8: what you do. And, you know, it's not excusing, it's okay,
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 8: but like there.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: Look, it's hard to shame people out of their beliefs.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: I think that, I believe that. It's not productive. It's
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: not productive. If it's Trump and Biden, vote for Biden? I.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 8: I'm reserving at this time because I plan to do
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 8: everything I can in this next year to ensure that
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 8: Donald Trump is not the nominee on that ticket. But
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 8: what I will say is if he is the nominee
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 8: on that ticket, I think everybody needs to, again, collectively
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 8: come together to make sure that he is not nominated
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 8: for a second term and voting third party is not
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 8: the way to do that.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: That's good. Okay, that's good. And look, I've been wondering
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: too in like the last year, it's like, George W. Bush,
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: get out there and at some point say, like, there's just,
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: I think that people are not.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 8: I think what honestly helps, like, I admire George Bush.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 8: I think it helps having people like General Kelly go
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 8: out or Mark Milley or people who were on the inside,
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 8: people who were in his inner circle come out.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: I think so, too. I mean, like, the fact that
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: all the.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 8: George Bush's voice is valuable, but it's not going to
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 8: channel the.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: It's not like the Trump base loves him some Bush
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: at this point. But, no, I'm just thinking... Right, no,
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: George Bush. Right, yeah, exactly. But, like, you know, a
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: lot of cabinet secretaries that were Trump cabinet people are
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: not with him this time. You know, I do think they're, like...
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: There's been a slow.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 8: Trickle in this last year of people coming up. The
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 8: loudest voices are the ones that are often heard, and
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 8: they drown out other voices. And I think part of
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 8: it's the media's fault. I'm not going to just take
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 8: blame away from them. But I also think, I never
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 8: saw myself in a position like this. I am adjusting
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 8: to it, at least I'm trying to, but to have
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 8: voices that people feel like they can trust and have
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 8: integrity to them. Again, I admit my faults. I'm not
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 8: trying to excuse any of it. I was not forthcoming
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 8: to the committee in a lot of instances. And I, again,
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 8: live with a lot of regret and shame that not
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 8: because of legal jeopardy for myself, I was very candid.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 6: I was like, look, if you guys send me to jail,
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 6: I accept the consequences of my actions. I just want
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 6: to do the right thing. But it's just, we need,
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 6: we need people out there that see the danger of
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 6: this moment. And I just, I hope that people will
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 6: listen and sort of start to come around to that
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 6: because it's It's a hard jump to make, but it's
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 6: really not that bad.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 8: Once you do it.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: I'll end with a, I guess this qualifies as a
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: lighter question, even though it's not a much lighter topic.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: The speakers race.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 8: Oh, gosh.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: You spent a lot of time with Kevin McCarthy.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 8: Worked closely with a lot of these.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, a lot of time with Matt Gaetz. Steve Scalise
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: you interned for? Jim Jordan. Jim Jordan? What's your take
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: on what's going on there? Who should we be rooting
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: for here? Oh, God. In this shit show. Or does
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: it make a difference? Should we just be like, Jordan
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: and Scalise will be the same?
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 8: I don't think they'll be the same. Candidly, I haven't
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 8: been following the nuances of it all that closely, but
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 8: I do know these characters as individuals and on a
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 8: professional level. What I'll say about McCarthy briefly is I
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 8: did work very closely with him. I had a great
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 8: professional relationship and friendship with him. Kevin made his own
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 8: bed with this. He had so many opportunities not only
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 8: to do the quote unquote right thing, what I define
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 8: as the right thing, but he came out on January
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 8: 6th denouncing the president's involvement in what happened. And then
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 8: he was at Mar-a-Lago weeks later. He quite literally won
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 8: got the gavel because he agreed that one member could.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: Take it from him. Yeah, right.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 8: I'm just like, it baffles me because I'm like, so
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 8: like there were shreds of me earlier this week where
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 8: I sort of felt bad. And I, at times I
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 8: was like, you know, I could see the point of
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 8: why would Democrats vote to oust him? But I think
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 8: they made the courageous decision in doing so. He'd, has
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 8: not been a speaker of integrity and honesty. He's not
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 8: been a trustworthy player. He's done everything to appease the
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 8: masses just to keep that gavel. Even, like, look at
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 8: Ukraine aid. Like, whatever your politics are about Ukraine and Russia, Republicans, like, U.S.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 8: national security depends largely on European stability. Like, Ukraine needs aid. So,
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 8: you know, I don't blame them for that. But that
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 8: being said, And Matt Gaetz is a whole nother, anybody
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 8: that takes Matt Gaetz seriously or thinks that he did
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 8: this for the good of the country does not know
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 8: Matt Gaetz. Matt Gaetz did this for a soundbite and
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 8: to make a name for himself. He is not a
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 8: serious politician by any means. And I could go on,
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 8: but that's all I have to say about him.
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: Shitposted the speaker out of a job.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 8: I mean, yeah, he chastised Kevin for working with Democrats
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 8: on the spending negotiation and then Matt turned around and
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 8: did the same thing to oust him. So he's just
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 8: a man that has absolutely no principles. But between Scalise
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 8: and Jim Jordan... I would hope that there would be
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 8: a third person. Jim Jordan, I'm trying to delicately phrase
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 8: this and be diplomatic about it because I don't want
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 8: to fear a stroke. Jim Jordan is a man of
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 8: principle and I will give him that. He is, in
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 8: my experience, he is one person. I don't agree with
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 8: his politics, but I do believe that he actually believes
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 8: in his agenda and he doesn't just go with the masses.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 8: He agrees with the masses in large part. But Jim
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 8: Jordan was privy to nearly everything, if not everything, about
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 8: and pertaining to January 6th. Jim Jordan can't be trusted
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 8: with the Constitution, in my opinion. And if he is
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 8: elected Speaker, you know, yes, maybe he can, his voice
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 8: will resonate with the more extreme conservatives, but he's not
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 8: going to be representative of the mass in Congress, which is,
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 8: you know, the people who... represent America. There are moderate
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 8: Republicans still in Congress, as there are still moderate Democrats,
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 8: but Jim can't be trusted with the Constitution. He can't
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 8: be trusted to represent those people. Steve is a different...
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 8: I would hope that there would be a third person
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 8: that would emerge. I think Patrick McHenry has a lot
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 8: of character and integrity. I don't think his name is
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 8: in the hat. I don't think that he would want
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 8: the job, frankly. It's not a job that I would want,
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 8: to be really honest with you.
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know why anyone would at this point.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 8: It's a role. Yeah, it's also just really an unfortunate
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 8: place for the Republican Party to be in and honestly embarrassing. But,
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 8: you know, is that what causes change?
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 8: I don't think so.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: But it's... Cassidy Hutchinson, thank you for doing this. Again, like,
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: just because something's obviously right doesn't mean it's easy. And
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: I am like, so I have a lot of admiration
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: for everything you've done. It was not easy to do.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 8: And I.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: really hope that you can come back and we can
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: just argue about policy, just yell at each other about
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: just regular old politics stuff and not have to worry
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: about the, uh, the creeping threat of authoritarianism posed by, uh,
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: your former party or your current party, but the one
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: that you're trying to change.
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 8: The one I don't identify with is what I still
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 8: have hope for. Well, and saying that too, I just
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 8: want to thank you and everyone here too, because like I,
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 8: my attorneys and everybody who's very warmly embraced me and
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 8: offered the kindest words that I still don't feel deserving of.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 8: I to have the opportunity to sit here with you
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 8: guys is honestly means a lot to me too. God, I,
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 8: I'm supposed to be stoic and not emotional, but it's seriously, it,
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 8: it means a lot because it's, it gives me hope
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 8: that we can get back to that place and that,
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 8: you know, we don't have to agree politically, but we
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 8: agree on a human level and that we're Americans and,
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 8: are important conversations to have. So just thank you guys
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 8: for welcoming me and being so kind. You don't have to,
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 8: but I appreciate it.
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: You're welcome. And thank you. Thank you for stopping by.
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 8: Thank you.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: Thanks again to Cassidy Hutchinson for joining us today. Everyone
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: have a fantastic weekend and we'll talk to you next week.
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: Bye everyone.
• 1:27:15
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• 1:27:18
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• 1:27:21
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• 1:27:28
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