Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / THE Ohio State: Woody Hayes, Michigan, and the Birth of a Dynasty (Part 1)

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THE Ohio State: Woody Hayes, Michigan, and the Birth of a Dynasty (Part 1) · The Chuck ToddCast

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to Dynastic. I'm J.A. Adande. O-H. I-O.
0:05
Speaker 2: I'm Chuck Todd. And if you can't tell already, this
0:08
Speaker 2: episode's subject is the Ohio State Buckeyes. Excuse me, J.A.
0:14
Speaker 2: The Ohio State University Buckeyes. We have to always remember
0:19
Speaker 2: the the.
0:21
Speaker 1: Or we don't have to. I always thought that was
0:23
Speaker 1: very pretentious. Of course it is. We won't be saying
0:27
Speaker 1: that through the entirety of this podcast. That was the
0:31
Speaker 1: one and only time. You won't hear it coming from me. Chuck,
0:33
Speaker 1: you feel welcome to do it. I won't be uppercasing the...
0:36
Speaker 1: Acoustically uppercasing the the.
0:40
Speaker 2: Hey, Jay, I went to the George Washington University. We
0:43
Speaker 2: actually care about the... Yes, and we like the you.
0:46
Speaker 2: I'm all about the articles, man. I love the the.
0:49
Speaker 2: It was even a pretty good alt-rock band when I
0:53
Speaker 2: was in high school.
0:54
Speaker 1: The the, or the the, either way. The the, yeah. So...
0:58
Speaker 1: This is a football program that first reached elite status
1:01
Speaker 1: in the middle of the 20th century, and it's shown
1:03
Speaker 1: a resurgence here in the 21st century. But my first
1:06
Speaker 1: up-close exposure to the Buckeyes came in that stretch in between.
1:10
Speaker 1: And while it wasn't a landmark game for the program,
1:12
Speaker 1: you could say it epitomized what Ohio State football is
1:16
Speaker 1: all about. Let's go back to November 4th, 1989 in Evanston, Illinois,
1:21
Speaker 1: the old Dyke Stadium, which has since been replaced by
1:24
Speaker 1: the glorious new Ryan Field. I was a college sophomore
1:27
Speaker 1: in the press box on the football beat for the
1:29
Speaker 1: Daily Northwestern, and I saw something that day I'll never forget.
1:34
Speaker 1: Three Ohio State running backs rushed for 100 yards apiece.
1:38
Speaker 1: It started with Carlos Snow rushing for exactly 100 in
1:41
Speaker 1: the first half before he got injured. So in the
1:43
Speaker 1: second half, they brought in a freshman named Dante Lee.
1:46
Speaker 1: and he rushed for 157 yards and three touchdowns just
1:50
Speaker 1: in the second half. Meanwhile, Scotty Graham, the fullback, played
1:53
Speaker 1: the whole game, and he slowly and steadily rushed for
1:55
Speaker 1: 102 yards. All told, Ohio State ran the ball 68
2:01
Speaker 1: times for 456 yards. Some guy named Kirk Herbstreet even
2:07
Speaker 1: ran for six yards. It was like a Woody Hayes
2:10
Speaker 1: fever dream. The school that embraced the offensive philosophy of
2:13
Speaker 1: three yards and a cloud of dust enjoyed 6.7 yards
2:16
Speaker 1: per carry on the afternoon. That's like a haboob of dust, Chuck.
2:20
Speaker 2: Man, that is quite the, it's quite a reminder of
2:24
Speaker 2: Northwestern football in the late 80s as well, a little bit. Boy,
2:28
Speaker 2: is it such a different Ohio State. Look, I have
2:31
Speaker 2: my own direct memory of Ohio State. I was in Tempe, Arizona,
2:37
Speaker 2: January of 2003, thinking that Miami was going to win
2:41
Speaker 2: back-to-back national titles. We're fresh off of, winning in 2001.
2:47
Speaker 2: It was a Rose Bowl, first time Miami ever got
2:49
Speaker 2: to be in a Rose Bowl. That was amazing. So
2:52
Speaker 2: I don't want to say we took this game, second game,
2:56
Speaker 2: when I say we, the Miami fans, took it for granted.
2:59
Speaker 2: But I remember the second I got off the airplane
3:03
Speaker 2: in Phoenix, I think all of Columbus, Ohio had shown
3:08
Speaker 2: up that day. Because They hadn't won a title since 1968.
3:11
Speaker 2: This was an unusual team. They didn't quite know. They
3:14
Speaker 2: had this incredible freshman, Maurice Claret. And, of course, this
3:17
Speaker 2: is the infamous game in Miami lore of essentially the
3:21
Speaker 2: stolen national title. Miami fans to this day know the
3:26
Speaker 2: name of the official who threw the flag that would
3:30
Speaker 2: have ended. If there's no flag, the game ends. Terry Porter,
3:34
Speaker 2: he was a Big 12 official. It was Big 12 officials.
3:37
Speaker 2: doing this game between the Big East champion, University of
3:41
Speaker 2: Miami Hurricanes, and the Big Ten champion, Ohio State Buckeyes.
3:47
Speaker 2: What I'll never forget about that game, J.A., is the
3:54
Speaker 2: flag seems so delayed. I was on the opposite side.
3:56
Speaker 2: I'm sitting in the end zone, basically surrounded by Ohio
4:00
Speaker 2: State fans because it didn't really matter, right? The entire
4:02
Speaker 2: state of Ohio was in Phoenix that day. Miami, a
4:05
Speaker 2: private school, didn't have nearly the number of fans and
4:09
Speaker 2: literally the fireworks go off. The players rush the field.
4:13
Speaker 2: They got their back to back the Ohio state fan
4:16
Speaker 2: next to me, who I had enjoyed watching the game with.
4:18
Speaker 2: We were trading info. Nice guy. We shake hands. Oh,
4:22
Speaker 2: heck of a game. I'm like, yeah, you guys really
4:24
Speaker 2: made us work for it. Well, literally I had all
4:27
Speaker 2: that entire conversation. And then all of a sudden the
4:29
Speaker 2: guy goes, Hey, I think there was a flag. And
4:32
Speaker 2: then you just, and that was it. And even though
4:36
Speaker 2: they score the tying touchdown, Miami actually gets the ball again,
4:39
Speaker 2: has a chance to win it. Ken Dorsey got knocked
4:43
Speaker 2: out of that game. They brought in the backup quarterback
4:46
Speaker 2: who couldn't hit. A wide open third string tight end
4:52
Speaker 2: for that game who later becomes a left tackle. It's
4:54
Speaker 2: my friend Eric Winston. Eric Winston would go on with
4:56
Speaker 2: a great NFL career, is a great right and left tackle.
5:01
Speaker 2: President of the NFL Players Association, actually, is the active player.
5:05
Speaker 2: But I'll never forget, he was wide open in the
5:07
Speaker 2: end zone and the quarterback couldn't get him the ball.
5:10
Speaker 2: And that's how that game ends. But, you know, that
5:12
Speaker 2: game really sort of, I could make an argument, J.A.,
5:18
Speaker 2: that if they don't win that game, we might not
5:19
Speaker 2: be doing a dynastic episode about Ohio State because it
5:22
Speaker 2: did sort of, it did sort of start the new era, right?
5:28
Speaker 2: You and I came of age at a time when
5:30
Speaker 2: Ohio State wasn't very good, right? They weren't contending for titles.
5:34
Speaker 1: Falling off.
5:35
Speaker 2: In fact, I have viewed them as sort of Michigan's
5:38
Speaker 2: little brother, which is probably the worst thing you could
5:41
Speaker 2: say to somebody from our space.
5:43
Speaker 1: So it really was a return to glory. It was
5:46
Speaker 1: their first consensus national championship in 34 years. And we
5:50
Speaker 1: didn't know it then, but it also represented a transition
5:52
Speaker 1: to a new phase of Buckeye football. As you mentioned,
5:55
Speaker 1: Maurice Claret was the outstanding freshman running back on that team.
5:58
Speaker 1: And we thought he was going to go on to
6:00
Speaker 1: join the lineage of the OSU Backs like the Keith
6:03
Speaker 1: Byers and the Heisman Trophy winners, Archie Griffin and Eddie
6:06
Speaker 1: George that we had seen growing up. But he ran
6:09
Speaker 1: into NCAA eligibility issues, and he made an unsuccessful attempt
6:13
Speaker 1: to enter the NFL draft as a freshman, and he
6:15
Speaker 1: wound up never playing another down at Ohio State. Meanwhile,
6:19
Speaker 1: 19 players from that 2002 team went on to be
6:23
Speaker 1: drafted in the NFL, not a single running back among them.
6:27
Speaker 1: There'd be more great running backs that came through Columbus,
6:29
Speaker 1: like Ezekiel Elliott and J.K. Dobbins and Carlos Hyde. When
6:33
Speaker 1: you think of the Ohio State stars and you see
6:35
Speaker 1: them hoisting the Heisman of late, it's the quarterbacks and
6:38
Speaker 1: wide receivers.
6:39
Speaker 2: No, it is two entirely different personalities and cultures, right?
6:43
Speaker 2: The 20th century success stories of Ohio State is all
6:46
Speaker 2: on the ground. And the great memories of Ohio State
6:50
Speaker 2: football in the 21st century. I mean, we didn't bring
6:52
Speaker 2: a Cardell Jones, right? Just these guys that could just
6:55
Speaker 2: run and gun and sling the ball. And they've become
6:59
Speaker 2: wide receiver you as we're recording this. the front runner
7:03
Speaker 2: for the Heisman trophy is Jeremiah Smith and Ohio state
7:07
Speaker 2: wide receiver. And I could argue if they end up
7:10
Speaker 2: getting that Heisman trophy and he wins it in some ways, it's, it's,
7:14
Speaker 2: it's a, it's almost like a century, a 21st century
7:17
Speaker 2: award for just the greatness of wide receivers that they've developed.
7:21
Speaker 2: But there's one other pattern that did continue at Ohio
7:24
Speaker 2: state is that, that, that didn't change. Is it the,
7:29
Speaker 2: things don't end well for every coach. Jim Trestle, the
7:32
Speaker 2: coach of that team that brought him back to glory,
7:35
Speaker 2: it didn't end well for him, just like it didn't
7:37
Speaker 2: end well for Woody Hayes, just like it didn't end
7:39
Speaker 2: well for Urban Meyer. And in fact, this is actually
7:42
Speaker 2: a theme that goes back, right? You could go back,
7:45
Speaker 2: it was a graveyard of coaches in the 18, when
7:47
Speaker 2: they first started their program. There were six coaches in
7:50
Speaker 2: 12 seasons before Woody Hayes is hired. So it is,
7:55
Speaker 2: perhaps it's just that constant, need for success that makes
8:02
Speaker 2: them never satisfied with who's coaching them in the moment.
8:05
Speaker 1: And never satisfied. That's the unfortunate through line at Ohio State.
8:09
Speaker 1: And it sets the Buckeyes apart from similar programs such
8:11
Speaker 1: as USC, which has the same number of national championships
8:15
Speaker 1: recognized by the NCAA, or Alabama, which we profiled in
8:18
Speaker 1: a previous edition of Dynastic. But Ohio State is still
8:22
Speaker 1: a foundational college football program. I mean, what would the
8:25
Speaker 1: sport be without Script Ohio? Love me some Script Ohio.
8:29
Speaker 1: For all of its success, it seems like the fan
8:31
Speaker 1: base always demands a little bit more.
8:34
Speaker 2: It's a chip, and I think I know what shape
8:38
Speaker 2: the chip is. It's the state of Michigan, right? It's
8:41
Speaker 2: all about beating Michigan because there's one stat Ohio State
8:45
Speaker 2: fans hate. Michigan leads the all-time series 62-52, and that
8:51
Speaker 2: just always sits there, right? It sits there, the school
8:55
Speaker 2: up north, J.A.
8:56
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we can't have an Ohio State conversation without
8:59
Speaker 1: bringing in that school up north. With so much passion
9:02
Speaker 1: for the football program, Ohio State in many ways embodies
9:05
Speaker 1: the existential debate over what's more essential to a school,
9:08
Speaker 1: academics or sports. And that's been an issue as far
9:11
Speaker 1: back as 1961, when the Ohio State administration actually voted
9:14
Speaker 1: to decline a Rose Bowl bid, because according to the book,
9:17
Speaker 1: War As They Knew It, the administration feared that Buckeyes
9:21
Speaker 1: football was becoming too big and was distracting and detracting,
9:24
Speaker 1: I should say, from the school's academic mission.
9:27
Speaker 2: And I know you could claim it goes back to 61.
9:31
Speaker 2: The whole reason they wanted a football program was to
9:34
Speaker 2: keep up with the Ivies. In many ways, right, this
9:38
Speaker 2: is what football's meant to them. But I'll tell you,
9:40
Speaker 2: the power of football at Ohio State, who's more powerful,
9:44
Speaker 2: the football coach or the university president, and this incredible
9:47
Speaker 2: line from Gordon Gee, who ran Ohio State during the
9:50
Speaker 2: Jim Trestle era, when Jim Trestle's job was on the
9:54
Speaker 2: line due to the so-called tattoo scandal, as it was known.
9:58
Speaker 2: He kind of admitted what the priority was in Columbus, Ohio.
10:02
Speaker 2: He says, let me be very clear. I'm just hopeful
10:05
Speaker 2: the coach doesn't dismiss me. You know, it was, it's
10:09
Speaker 2: an important, it was an important reminder. And I think
10:14
Speaker 2: these days we thought the line was blurry back in 2011.
10:18
Speaker 2: It's not blurry anymore. at some of these schools, the
10:21
Speaker 2: football program is supreme. I know that's the case at
10:24
Speaker 2: the University of Miami, and I know that's the case
10:26
Speaker 2: at Ohio State.
10:28
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's also, the irony is that it's gotten so
10:33
Speaker 1: big and so professionalized that, you know, Jim Trestle would
10:37
Speaker 1: have been okay if he'd come along a little bit later.
10:41
Speaker 2: Well, that's the irony of that. Well, we're going to
10:43
Speaker 2: have a lot more history here, and we're going to
10:44
Speaker 2: get to it. But a reminder, please follow us on
10:46
Speaker 2: social media at dynasticpod, wherever you want to follow us
10:50
Speaker 2: on your various platforms. Follow, like, and review us wherever
10:53
Speaker 2: you listen to your podcast and, of course, on our
10:55
Speaker 2: YouTube channel. All of that helps to make sure we
10:58
Speaker 2: can continue to bring these incredible deep dives and histories
11:03
Speaker 2: of some of the amazing dynasties that we believe are dynastic. Well, Jay,
11:11
Speaker 2: you know what that means. Let's open up the trophy case. Yeah,
11:15
Speaker 2: let's go inside. All right. So it's nine claimed national championships.
11:20
Speaker 2: But of course, there's always unclaimed titles. But let's go
11:24
Speaker 2: through them really quick. They finished atop the AP rankings
11:26
Speaker 2: in 42, 54, and 68. In addition to winning the
11:31
Speaker 2: coach's poll in 57. And they finished on top of
11:35
Speaker 2: the National Football Foundation rankings in 61 and 70. They
11:40
Speaker 2: won the bowl championship series against my beloved Miami Hurricanes
11:44
Speaker 2: in 02. And then, of course, they won the college
11:46
Speaker 2: football playoff twice. The first year when it was four
11:49
Speaker 2: teams at 2014. And Ohio State won it the first
11:53
Speaker 2: time it was 12 teams in 2024. They have won
11:57
Speaker 2: or shared the Big Ten championship 39 times. And here's
12:01
Speaker 2: what's amazing, J.A. This season could be the year that
12:06
Speaker 2: Ohio State gets its 1,000th win. As we tape now,
12:10
Speaker 2: I think they need eight more. If they don't get
12:14
Speaker 2: it this year, it probably means this was not a
12:16
Speaker 2: successful season as far as Ohio State is concerned. And
12:22
Speaker 2: I think that that's the most interesting because I think
12:25
Speaker 2: they need to win 13 total games to get to
12:29
Speaker 2: the overall total to get them to 1,000. And if
12:31
Speaker 2: they win 13 games, it means it's been a pretty
12:33
Speaker 2: darn good season.
12:35
Speaker 1: For most people, right? Chuck, let's talk Heisman Trophies. Six
12:38
Speaker 1: Buckeyes have won the stiff-arming statuette a total of seven times.
12:43
Speaker 1: And that numeric discrepancy, of course, accounts for the only
12:46
Speaker 1: two-time Heisman Trophy winner in the history of the award,
12:50
Speaker 1: Archie Griffin, who won in 1974 and 75. The other
12:54
Speaker 1: winners are Les Horvath in 1944, Vic Janowitz in 1950,
12:59
Speaker 1: Howard Hopalong Cassidy in 1955, Eddie George in 1995, and
13:04
Speaker 1: the quarterback Troy Smith in 2006.
13:08
Speaker 2: One thing about, there's two things I want to add
13:10
Speaker 2: to this real quick. One is, We both had to
13:13
Speaker 2: go back and double-check the Troy Smith vote count. He
13:17
Speaker 2: had one of the biggest landslides ever as the quarterback
13:21
Speaker 2: for Ohio State. He got over 800 first-place votes, second
13:24
Speaker 2: place with Darren McFadden at 45. It's amazing sometimes what
13:28
Speaker 2: some of these vote counts are. You're shocked. And I
13:32
Speaker 2: think this was really fitting for Ohio State. So Archie Griffin,
13:36
Speaker 2: a running back, is the only one to win it twice.
13:39
Speaker 2: Orlando Pace, the all-time great offensive lineman for Ohio State,
13:42
Speaker 2: is the only lineman to ever win the Lombardi Trophy twice.
13:46
Speaker 2: I think there's something fitting that Ohio State, three yards
13:50
Speaker 2: and a cloud of dust, has the only two-time running
13:53
Speaker 2: back as a Heisman Trophy winner, the only two-time Lombardi
13:56
Speaker 2: Trophy winner who helped clear the space for those yards
14:01
Speaker 2: of dust. We should add, by the way, Ohio Stadium joined,
14:05
Speaker 2: and I think this was all about their competition with Michigan,
14:08
Speaker 2: they joined the 100,000 club in the 21st century, As
14:12
Speaker 2: of now, I believe the Horseshoe can seat just over 110,000.
14:15
Speaker 2: And of course, the all-time record crowd was set against Michigan.
14:24
Speaker 1: 110,045 in 2016. Some notable figures have had the honor
14:29
Speaker 1: of dotting the I in script Ohio. They include Bob Hope,
14:33
Speaker 1: Jack Nicklaus, John Glenn and his wife, Annie. Also, Anthony
14:36
Speaker 1: Violi was a 100-year-old World War II veteran who shares
14:39
Speaker 1: the same last name as our researcher, Meredith. I'll be honest.
14:45
Speaker 2: I've the only reason I want to learn how to
14:47
Speaker 2: play a sousaphone is I want to have shot at
14:50
Speaker 2: script at dot in the script. I, cause that is also,
14:54
Speaker 2: we talk about the famous people. It's a big deal
14:56
Speaker 2: to be the tuba player, the sousaphone player that gets
14:59
Speaker 2: to do that. And you've got to, you ever put
15:01
Speaker 2: one of those on J a, You ever put a
15:04
Speaker 2: sousaphone on?
15:04
Speaker 1: I have not. My neighbor played the tuba for a while,
15:07
Speaker 1: and I had no desire to lug that thing back
15:10
Speaker 1: and forth to school. And you've seen the guys. I
15:12
Speaker 1: feel like that's a great reward, yeah.
15:14
Speaker 2: They high-step it, too. Can you imagine not falling on
15:17
Speaker 2: your you-know-what with a sousaphone and high-stepping to get your
15:21
Speaker 2: script Ohio? I'm always enamored when that happens.
15:25
Speaker 1: It's so cool. It really is.
15:27
Speaker 2: All right, let's sneak in our first break, and then
15:29
Speaker 2: we're going to go back to the beginning. what made
15:33
Speaker 2: Ohio State dynastic.
15:35
Speaker 1: You know, with the reported $ 20 million cost of the
15:38
Speaker 1: 2024 championship roster at Ohio State, and a current roster
15:41
Speaker 1: that might be making three times as much money, it's
15:44
Speaker 1: easy to forget that the Ohio State football program was
15:47
Speaker 1: a true student extracurricular activity when it began in the
15:51
Speaker 1: 19th century. They formed their first varsity team as early
15:54
Speaker 1: as 1886. The problem was no other college in the
15:57
Speaker 1: state of Ohio had another team, so opponents were pretty
15:59
Speaker 1: hard to come by. Their first official game isn't listed
16:03
Speaker 1: until 1990 when they played Ohio Wesleyan and won 20-14.
16:08
Speaker 2: Amazing that Ohio, right, which is home to Canton, home
16:13
Speaker 2: to the foundational of some of the NFL teams, didn't
16:15
Speaker 2: have enough football teams to play this new young university.
16:19
Speaker 2: But look, in 1894, this is what I love about this.
16:22
Speaker 2: The students thought that they needed to up their game
16:25
Speaker 2: as a university. They felt the reason that Ohio State
16:28
Speaker 2: wasn't as nationally prominent as your Harvard's, your Princeton's, your
16:32
Speaker 2: Yale's was because those schools were better at football. So
16:35
Speaker 2: this goes back to what matters more, football or the academics? Well,
16:40
Speaker 2: the students in the late 19th century thought what made
16:43
Speaker 2: the Ivy League tick was not academics, J.A., but football.
16:50
Speaker 2: And so it's, you know, the other interesting thing that
16:53
Speaker 2: I love about this is The scarlet and gray wasn't
16:57
Speaker 2: meant to be the first colors of the program. They
17:00
Speaker 2: were going to be, originally, they were going to be
17:02
Speaker 2: orange and black, and then they learned Princeton already had
17:05
Speaker 2: orange and black, so they went back to the drawing board.
17:08
Speaker 2: One of my fun facts of learning throughout our history
17:12
Speaker 2: run there.
17:13
Speaker 1: I can't get over them wanting to keep up with
17:15
Speaker 1: the Ivies in terms of Athletics and not academics. You know,
17:19
Speaker 1: here I was thinking that the Ivies were superior because,
17:21
Speaker 1: you know, they were Harvard, Princeton and Yale cranking out
17:24
Speaker 1: Supreme Court justices and the like.
17:27
Speaker 2: Turns out it's football. It turns out it's football. It's
17:30
Speaker 2: pretty funny to imagine Ohio State feeling inferior to these
17:34
Speaker 2: Ivy League schools and football this these days. But as
17:36
Speaker 2: we discussed in the Alabama episode, Yale was the and
17:40
Speaker 2: still is the all time national championship leader with 18.
17:43
Speaker 2: That's right. Your Yale Eli's or your Yale Bulldogs. I
17:47
Speaker 2: don't know which which nickname we're supposed to you. And
17:50
Speaker 2: of course, most of those were won by 1894 when
17:53
Speaker 2: Ohio State decided to start a football program.
17:57
Speaker 1: And by 1896, Ohio State already felt like a big
18:00
Speaker 1: time football program in one regard. They'd fired a football
18:03
Speaker 1: coach for the first time. So as you alluded to earlier,
18:06
Speaker 1: the first step toward their moniker as the Graveyard of Coaches.
18:10
Speaker 1: To me, the next step to the big time came
18:12
Speaker 1: in 1913 when they joined the Western Conference, which later
18:14
Speaker 1: became the Big Ten.
18:16
Speaker 2: And obviously just as significantly, Michigan joined that conference in 1917,
18:21
Speaker 2: and they had their first meeting as conference rivals in 1918.
18:25
Speaker 2: So it wasn't too long afterward that the school realized
18:27
Speaker 2: it needed a suitable stadium if it had these major
18:31
Speaker 2: aspirations to be a football power. So with the team
18:34
Speaker 2: gaining popularity, thanks in part to their star at the time,
18:38
Speaker 2: Schick Harley, It was an engineering professor who led the
18:43
Speaker 2: way and brought in the architect Howard Dwight Smith, who
18:46
Speaker 2: made this accurate, if not particularly profound assessment. The popularity
18:50
Speaker 2: of football during the recent season has shown that great
18:53
Speaker 2: crowds will have to be accommodated at the game. It's
18:58
Speaker 2: sort of like, yeah, I guess that's how we yeah,
19:01
Speaker 2: I guess it's what we have to do. But, you know,
19:04
Speaker 2: I tell you, we all think this is a recency.
19:07
Speaker 2: We have this recency bias about football over academics. I
19:11
Speaker 2: hope this Ohio State episode puts that to rest. We've
19:14
Speaker 2: been having this argument about football versus academics and who
19:18
Speaker 2: drives the train for universities since the founding.
19:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you can go back in the early
19:24
Speaker 1: 20th century and there's NCAA commissions providing the reports that,
19:28
Speaker 1: you know, the athletics are in danger of running roughshod
19:33
Speaker 1: right over the schools and, you know, it's too professionalized.
19:36
Speaker 1: All the stuff you've been hearing lately, trust me, it's
19:39
Speaker 1: all been written. Right. Years ago. Yeah.
19:41
Speaker 2: It's all been written. You can actually go back and
19:44
Speaker 2: find the old articles and just repost them if you'd like. Yeah.
19:47
Speaker 1: Well, and the passion was there, though. You know, that's
19:49
Speaker 1: why everyone was responding to that. And it turns out
19:52
Speaker 1: the fundraising estimates were as understated as that sentence that
19:55
Speaker 1: you read, Chuck. You know, they were hoping to get
19:57
Speaker 1: $ 600, 000 and they got a million in a little over
20:01
Speaker 1: three months. So in 1922, Ohio Stadium, with its distinctive
20:05
Speaker 1: horseshoe shape and its columns and its arches and other
20:08
Speaker 1: architectural touches, opened with an original seating capacity of 66,120.
20:12
Speaker 1: By the way.
20:15
Speaker 2: That's a lot then. Think about it. We didn't have
20:18
Speaker 2: a ton of stadiums that were that big back then,
20:20
Speaker 2: and that in itself is a big stadium.
20:24
Speaker 1: Well, they found out pretty early they were going to
20:25
Speaker 1: need a bigger boat, to borrow from Jaws, because 71,000
20:29
Speaker 1: people showed up for the first game against Michigan in
20:32
Speaker 1: the new stadium. They added a track to the stadium
20:34
Speaker 1: the next year, and notably that's where Jesse Owens ran
20:37
Speaker 1: When he competed for Ohio State in the 1930s, track
20:41
Speaker 1: was removed during the stadium renovations that started in 1998.
20:45
Speaker 2: Well, one of the signature moments in the 1930s came
20:48
Speaker 2: in 1934 when the then Ohio State coach Francis Schmidt
20:52
Speaker 2: told his players ahead of the Michigan game, Michigan players
20:55
Speaker 2: put their pants on one leg at a time, the
20:58
Speaker 2: same as we do. Well, the Buckeyes beat the Wolverines
21:01
Speaker 2: 34 to zip that day and ever since. the Buckeyes
21:05
Speaker 2: get miniature gold pants when they beat Michigan. And, you know,
21:12
Speaker 2: a lot of us didn't really know the significance of
21:14
Speaker 2: those gold pants until that Jim Trestle tattoo story back
21:18
Speaker 2: in the day.
21:19
Speaker 1: That's when I first found out about it. You know, Chuck,
21:21
Speaker 1: it is such a beloved tradition. And so it really
21:23
Speaker 1: stung the fan base when it came out that quarterback
21:26
Speaker 1: Terrell Pryor's gold pants trinket was among the items that
21:29
Speaker 1: he sold off for $ 2, 500.
21:30
Speaker 2: Not the gold pants. I, I can only imagine. What
21:36
Speaker 2: do you think Archie Griffin has done with all of
21:38
Speaker 2: his gold pants?
21:39
Speaker 1: Right.
21:39
Speaker 2: You know, and I know he trade all of them
21:40
Speaker 2: all for a national title. But, man, it is it
21:43
Speaker 2: is I guess it's like it's like Jack Nicklaus in
21:46
Speaker 2: his green jackets. You know, speaking of the fans in
21:50
Speaker 2: the 1940s, the Frontliners Booster Club forms. And over the years,
21:55
Speaker 2: this club has morphed into the Athletic Committee and the
21:58
Speaker 2: Buckeye Boosters. Originally, they really helped with recruiting around the
22:01
Speaker 2: state of Ohio. One of their first successes was helping
22:04
Speaker 2: Ohio State land Vic Genowitz, which, of course, the 1950
22:07
Speaker 2: Heisman winner. And now the boosters, of course, are all
22:11
Speaker 2: about fundraising and NIL. I mean, in many ways, J.A.,
22:16
Speaker 2: Ohio State was ready for this transition to a more
22:19
Speaker 2: professionalized system because they have been, frankly, they've always had
22:25
Speaker 2: a portion of the school and a portion of the
22:27
Speaker 2: fan base and a portion of donors focused on keeping
22:30
Speaker 2: the football going. team competitive. And frankly, you know, they're
22:35
Speaker 2: so old school with this. Their first booster scandal was
22:37
Speaker 2: in 1955.
22:38
Speaker 1: No, they couldn't wait for, you know, let's get all
22:42
Speaker 1: of the payments above the board. And, you know, we
22:45
Speaker 1: talked about that in the Alabama episodes that Alabama might
22:48
Speaker 1: not be that well suited for, you know, this NIL
22:52
Speaker 1: and payroll era, but Ohio State, yeah, this is right
22:56
Speaker 1: up the rally. So they're positioned to go forward and
23:00
Speaker 1: really prosper in this era. You know, Chuck, the 1930s
23:05
Speaker 1: was also when my beloved script Ohio Formation came about
23:09
Speaker 1: for the band. The band leader, Eugene Weigel, came up
23:11
Speaker 1: with the idea, partially inspired by the Ohio on the
23:14
Speaker 1: marquee of the Lowe's Movie Theater in downtown Ohio. The
23:17
Speaker 1: band forms a block, then they steadily peel off and
23:19
Speaker 1: spell out Ohio in cursive. Yeah, it wasn't the sousaphone
23:23
Speaker 1: player at first, Chuck, though. It was the cornet player initially.
23:27
Speaker 1: But Weigel thought that, you know, it's not dramatic enough.
23:30
Speaker 1: You can't really see it. throughout the whole stadium so
23:32
Speaker 1: now uh they they have the seuss phone players basically
23:35
Speaker 1: compete over a multi-year process to it's.
23:38
Speaker 2: A competition i knew it was yeah i knew it
23:40
Speaker 2: was a competition.
23:40
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah you have to you have to earn points
23:42
Speaker 1: and and all that stuff you know i've covered games
23:45
Speaker 1: in the horseshoe and few things in college football are
23:48
Speaker 1: as dramatic as when the drum major and the seuss
23:49
Speaker 1: phone player peel off and start high stepping like deon
23:53
Speaker 1: sanders out to the eye and the drum major points
23:55
Speaker 1: with a dramatic flourish and then suits on place or
23:58
Speaker 1: place and bows to both sides of the stadium. It's electric.
24:02
Speaker 1: There's really no better tradition in college football.
24:05
Speaker 2: You know, I will make a confession to you right now.
24:08
Speaker 2: I don't think I've told you this, but I was
24:09
Speaker 2: a drum major in high school.
24:11
Speaker 1: Really? Yes, I was.
24:13
Speaker 2: And I one time got to do the old fashioned
24:16
Speaker 2: high step and, and baton. We were more of a
24:19
Speaker 2: little bit more of a, where we just used our
24:22
Speaker 2: hands and we weren't high steppers. We were, We were
24:24
Speaker 2: sort of the modern way of doing it. But the
24:26
Speaker 2: one time I got to do that, man, all I
24:28
Speaker 2: could think about was the Ohio State guys actually back
24:32
Speaker 2: in the late 80s.
24:33
Speaker 1: I would love to do it. Back to football, though.
24:36
Speaker 1: The Buckeyes won their first national championship in 1942 under
24:40
Speaker 1: Coach Paul Brown. But that's not the most interesting part
24:42
Speaker 1: of that season to me. Chuck, are you ready to
24:44
Speaker 1: hop on the dysentery train?
24:46
Speaker 2: You know, I think we learned this in the Alabama episode, man,
24:50
Speaker 2: when it comes to Worried about water, right? Poisoned water.
24:54
Speaker 2: Get me on board the dysentery train.
24:56
Speaker 1: All aboard. All aboard. So as you alluded to, this
25:00
Speaker 1: is back when teams traveled around the country by train.
25:03
Speaker 1: And it was in the middle of World War II.
25:05
Speaker 1: So all the good trains and the train making materials
25:07
Speaker 1: were being used in the war effort. The Buckeyes had
25:10
Speaker 1: to take an old rusty train to Wisconsin and the
25:13
Speaker 1: water tanks were contaminated and it gave the players dysentery
25:16
Speaker 1: and they lost everything. to the Badgers, their only defeat
25:20
Speaker 1: that season. Blame it on the water and the dysentery. Sure.
25:23
Speaker 2: And we don't think University of Wisconsin wasn't all over this.
25:26
Speaker 2: There's some smart kids in Madison. They knew what they
25:28
Speaker 2: were doing.
25:29
Speaker 1: Who knows?
25:30
Speaker 2: Maybe Luke Fickle will figure out how Wisconsin can be
25:33
Speaker 2: more competitive using dysentery.
25:35
Speaker 1: Poison some trains. There you go.
25:37
Speaker 2: It's a bit of foreshadowing that there's a wartime connection
25:40
Speaker 2: to that championship because the coach who would take the
25:44
Speaker 2: Ohio State program to new heights is would be an
25:47
Speaker 2: armed forces veteran with a deep passion for all things military.
25:51
Speaker 2: And we're going to tell you that story next. But
25:56
Speaker 2: I will, you know, it is, he said, it's quite
25:59
Speaker 2: a bit of interesting people came through Ohio State, including
26:03
Speaker 2: Paul Brown, who of course was a big part of,
26:07
Speaker 2: a founder in the NFL, things like that. But the
26:11
Speaker 2: war was producing a coach that would leave his imprint.
26:16
Speaker 1: So in the 1940s, Ohio State wasn't just a graveyard
26:19
Speaker 1: for coaches. It was a carousel of coaches. They had
26:21
Speaker 1: four head coaches during this decade.
26:23
Speaker 2: And in fact, the final year of the revolving door, 1950,
26:27
Speaker 2: Ohio State and Michigan play in one of the most
26:31
Speaker 2: infamous games of the rivalry. It's now known simply as
26:34
Speaker 2: the Snow Bowl. It's one of the oddest and, yes,
26:38
Speaker 2: most consequential games in the history of this rivalry.
26:42
Speaker 1: It was November 25th, and it was snowing and snowing.
26:46
Speaker 1: and snowing in Columbus. At game time, the temperature was
26:49
Speaker 1: 10 degrees. There were wind gusts 25 miles per hour,
26:52
Speaker 1: and the snow was accumulating at 2 inches per hour.
26:55
Speaker 2: Wow.
26:56
Speaker 1: 14 college football games were canceled on that day, but
26:59
Speaker 1: not this one.
27:00
Speaker 2: Well, there were some real stakes because it's Michigan and
27:02
Speaker 2: Ohio State. What do you think the stakes were? Well,
27:05
Speaker 2: Ohio State had gone to the Rose Bowl.
27:06
Speaker 1: Exactly.
27:07
Speaker 2: Ohio State had gone to the Rose Bowl the year before,
27:09
Speaker 2: but the Big Ten had the no-repeat rule back then.
27:13
Speaker 2: So if Michigan lost, second place Wisconsin likely would have
27:18
Speaker 2: gone to the Rose Bowl, not Ohio State because they
27:20
Speaker 2: couldn't go back-to-back. But if the game wasn't played, Ohio
27:24
Speaker 2: State would have been essentially the Big Ten champion, and
27:27
Speaker 2: I guess that would have meant Wisconsin.
27:29
Speaker 1: Goes to the Rose Bowl. Before the game, the athletic
27:32
Speaker 1: directors and coaches, they meant to decide what to do.
27:34
Speaker 1: Neither coach wanted to play. Michigan's athletic director, Fritz Kreisler,
27:38
Speaker 1: said he would forfeit but wouldn't reschedule. Westview Athletic Director
27:42
Speaker 1: Dick Larkins refused to accept a forfeit, perhaps because he
27:45
Speaker 1: would have had to issue refunds for the nearly 80,000
27:47
Speaker 1: tickets sold.
27:49
Speaker 2: It's always about the cash. Always, always, always. Some of
27:52
Speaker 2: the 50,000 or so people who showed up decided to
27:56
Speaker 2: build bonfires in the stands. I think I don't blame them.
28:00
Speaker 1: Fire code violation, maybe? Exactly.
28:02
Speaker 2: It was so cold, though, the tarp froze to the
28:05
Speaker 2: turf under a layer of snow. You had to have
28:09
Speaker 2: Boy Scouts and fans. They all chipped in with the
28:12
Speaker 2: grounds crew and tried to figure out how to pull
28:14
Speaker 2: off the tarp to see if they could get the
28:16
Speaker 2: game played.
28:18
Speaker 1: So here's some of the stats from the game. Michigan
28:19
Speaker 1: won the game 9-3. Michigan never got a first down.
28:23
Speaker 1: They missed on all nine passes and punted 24 times.
28:28
Speaker 2: You're probably trying to figure out how did they get
28:29
Speaker 2: nine points. Ohio State had three first downs. They punted
28:32
Speaker 2: 21 times. Four of the punts were blocked, okay? And now,
28:38
Speaker 2: you know, Michigan got some points every now and then.
28:41
Speaker 2: In total, there were 45 punts for 1,408 total punting yards.
28:50
Speaker 1: Okay.
28:51
Speaker 2: The two teams fumbled 10 times, which actually, considering all
28:56
Speaker 2: those punts, you would have thought they kept the, they
28:59
Speaker 2: didn't turn the ball over that much. Here's your total
29:02
Speaker 2: offense for the game. Ohio State out. You know, they
29:05
Speaker 2: had a higher EPA than Michigan here.
29:09
Speaker 1: Technically, they outgained them.
29:10
Speaker 2: They outgained them. 41 yards for Ohio State, 27 for Michigan.
29:16
Speaker 1: So with the win, Michigan flew off to the warmer
29:19
Speaker 1: climes in Pasadena. But even with the loss, Ohio State
29:22
Speaker 1: was a big winner.
29:23
Speaker 2: Okay, so here you go. Late in the first half,
29:26
Speaker 2: Ohio State is leading 3-2, okay? That's it. With two
29:30
Speaker 2: men on base.
29:31
Speaker 1: No, sorry.
29:32
Speaker 2: They're leading 3-2. The Ohio State coach at the time
29:35
Speaker 2: is Wes Fessler, obviously in his last game before Woody
29:37
Speaker 2: Hayes takes over. He called for a punt... on third down,
29:41
Speaker 2: and the ball was on his own 13-yard line. The
29:44
Speaker 2: punt was blocked and recovered for the game-winning touchdown. It
29:49
Speaker 2: was Fessler's fourth straight loss to Michigan, and hence why
29:53
Speaker 2: it was his last game at Michigan.
29:56
Speaker 1: Within weeks, Bessel was fired and replaced by Wayne Woodrow Hayes,
30:01
Speaker 1: a relatively unknown coach at Miami of Ohio and definitely
30:03
Speaker 1: not Ohio State's first choice. Woody Hayes would become the
30:06
Speaker 1: longest-tenured football coach in the history of the school, as
30:09
Speaker 1: we said, at 28 years.
30:10
Speaker 2: Look, as we sort of foreshadowed at the start of this,
30:13
Speaker 2: it would end badly for him. It's probably the most
30:16
Speaker 2: infamous ending for any great coach ever when, at a
30:20
Speaker 2: bowl game, at the Gator Bowl, famously, he punched a
30:24
Speaker 2: Clemson player, and it is You know, it's you want
30:27
Speaker 2: to talk about something that completely changes somebody's obituary. That
30:32
Speaker 2: was a moment that in many ways completely changed the
30:35
Speaker 2: Woody Hayes obituary, didn't it?
30:37
Speaker 1: Legacy defining and reading Michael Rosenberg's book, The Wars They
30:42
Speaker 1: Knew It, about the Woody Hayes, Bo Schembechler era at
30:45
Speaker 1: Ohio State of Michigan. It's apparent in retrospect, it was
30:49
Speaker 1: always going to end that way for Woody Hayes. The
30:51
Speaker 1: book starts off with him physically attacking a player during halftime,
30:54
Speaker 1: and there's a litany of violent episodes. Hayes shows a
30:57
Speaker 1: TV cameraman during a Michigan game. In the 1971 Michigan game,
31:01
Speaker 1: he gets upset about a call. He runs on the
31:03
Speaker 1: field and yells at official Jerry Markbright. Chuck, you remember
31:07
Speaker 1: the smiling ref in the NFL? Yes, yeah. The same guy.
31:10
Speaker 2: He's not the one that was giving him the business.
31:13
Speaker 1: Is that that? No, that's a different one. Jerry Markbright
31:16
Speaker 1: would always have a little smile on his face.
31:18
Speaker 2: Yes, you're right.
31:18
Speaker 1: Yeah. But he wasn't smiling with Woody Hayes all up
31:22
Speaker 1: in his face on that day. Then Hayes goes nuts.
31:24
Speaker 1: He tears up the first down markers. He tries to
31:26
Speaker 1: pull the chains apart. Afterward, the game, he was so obsessed,
31:32
Speaker 1: he calls for instant replay and thinks there should be coaches' challenges,
31:35
Speaker 1: that they'd lose a timeout if they were wrong. And
31:37
Speaker 1: it's one of the few times he was ahead of
31:39
Speaker 1: his time. Not the most forward-thinking guy normally, but in
31:43
Speaker 1: this case, maybe driven by rage, he actually came up
31:46
Speaker 1: with a great idea that we'd see implemented.
31:48
Speaker 2: I wonder if he actually, if somebody said, you know,
31:52
Speaker 2: Woody Hayes had a.
31:52
Speaker 1: Good idea for how we do this. So back to
31:56
Speaker 1: his violent episodes. At the Rose Bowl in 1973, Hayes
31:59
Speaker 1: shoves an L.A. Times photographer's camera in the guy's face,
32:03
Speaker 1: giving him double vision for weeks. Then there's the controversial
32:06
Speaker 1: ending to the Michigan State game in 1974. It wasn't
32:09
Speaker 1: clear for Ohio State. It scored the go-ahead touchdown before
32:12
Speaker 1: time expired. But Michigan State fans rushed the field thinking
32:15
Speaker 1: they'd won. A student grabbed Hayes' cap. Hayes gives him
32:18
Speaker 1: a backhand smack that was caught on national television. Big
32:21
Speaker 1: Ten Commissioner Wayne Duke was on hand at that game,
32:23
Speaker 1: so he's huddling with the officials afterward to figure out
32:26
Speaker 1: what happened. 45 minutes after the final play, Duke announces
32:30
Speaker 1: that Michigan State had won. Hayes grabs the commissioner of
32:34
Speaker 1: the Big Ten, pins him up against the wall. Then
32:37
Speaker 1: he goes to the locker room. He tells his players,
32:39
Speaker 1: we're going to head over to Michigan State's locker room
32:40
Speaker 1: and beat up the Spartans. The assistant coaches finally got
32:43
Speaker 1: him to settle down a little bit. Emphasis on a
32:46
Speaker 1: little bit, because when he talked to the media, he
32:47
Speaker 1: told one reporter, I'm going to put my fist down
32:49
Speaker 1: your goddamn throat. After the 1977 Michigan game, the first
32:55
Speaker 1: time Hayes lost to Bowe in back-to-back years, he punched
32:57
Speaker 1: an ABC cameraman. So when he punched a player, it
33:01
Speaker 1: shouldn't have come as a surprise. This is who he was.
33:04
Speaker 1: For me, that was my introduction to him. I just
33:07
Speaker 1: started watching sports around that time when the punch happened.
33:10
Speaker 1: So it's hard for me to think of him as
33:12
Speaker 1: anything other than the guy who punched a Clemson player
33:14
Speaker 1: in the Gator Bowl.
33:16
Speaker 2: It's all I have in my head. I'm so thankful. Look,
33:19
Speaker 2: I read another Woody Hayes biography. And look, it's a
33:26
Speaker 2: sympathetic biography. It's basically, you know, this is a three-dimensional figure,
33:30
Speaker 2: and we're going to get into this a little bit.
33:32
Speaker 2: But that was the, you know, the impression I had
33:34
Speaker 2: is of a guy who couldn't control his rage, of
33:37
Speaker 2: a guy who was out, who was sort of out
33:41
Speaker 2: of his era, right? He was sort of, a throwback
33:44
Speaker 2: and all of this. And then you realize you learn
33:48
Speaker 2: more about him and he was raised, not surprisingly, it
33:51
Speaker 2: was a pretty disciplined household, right? That he was raised in.
33:55
Speaker 2: And he was very much a student of military history
34:03
Speaker 2: and really had high regard of the military, really had high.
34:06
Speaker 2: He was a believer. The military turned out to be
34:09
Speaker 2: one of the great places for him because of chain
34:14
Speaker 2: of command he sort of he thrived in a chain
34:17
Speaker 2: of command atmosphere he would follow orders and he liked
34:20
Speaker 2: to deliver orders questioning was sort of uncomfortable for him
34:24
Speaker 2: and it was those warriors that maybe on one hand
34:27
Speaker 2: he found sort of was in the right place but
34:30
Speaker 2: I'll be honest with you J.A. when I was reading
34:31
Speaker 2: it I kept thinking am I reading a biography of
34:34
Speaker 2: Patton or am I reading a biography of Woody Hayes.
34:37
Speaker 1: Well he certainly read a lot of biographies of Patton
34:39
Speaker 1: he loved him some general.
34:41
Speaker 2: Patton um But look, this was, the man had a
34:46
Speaker 2: big heart. Look, he doesn't have the success that he
34:51
Speaker 2: had if he didn't have a connection to his players,
34:53
Speaker 2: if he wasn't seen as somebody who was supportive, if
34:56
Speaker 2: he wasn't seen as somebody who believed in fairness. So
35:00
Speaker 2: the man had plenty of warts, but there's a reason
35:03
Speaker 2: why he had a lot of success too.
35:05
Speaker 1: And he was obsessed with football, but far be it
35:08
Speaker 1: from him to think that that was the only thing
35:10
Speaker 1: that existed in the world.
35:12
Speaker 2: He cared about academics more than in some ways.
35:15
Speaker 1: Right.
35:15
Speaker 2: We were discussing this, how much he was not a
35:18
Speaker 2: big advocate of going to professional football. He might not
35:22
Speaker 2: love the NIL era. The more we read about him, we.
35:25
Speaker 1: Were discussing this. He wouldn't. Trestle would have been thriving
35:28
Speaker 1: in a Trestle. Absolutely. Why could we have this when
35:31
Speaker 1: I'd still be coaching at Ohio State?
35:32
Speaker 2: I mean, Woody was talking players out of going into
35:35
Speaker 2: the draft. Go get your law degree. You know, he
35:38
Speaker 2: really did see football as a as a great game,
35:41
Speaker 2: but as a means to an end for another end,
35:45
Speaker 2: not this end.
35:46
Speaker 1: But that was a case where even though it might
35:48
Speaker 1: have been well-intentioned, it started to reflect how out of
35:50
Speaker 1: touch he was with the time. So, yeah, when he
35:53
Speaker 1: first started coaching, you were probably better off long term
35:57
Speaker 1: financially with a law degree and a career in law
36:00
Speaker 1: than you were in in going to play pro football.
36:04
Speaker 1: But by the late 60s, early 70s, after the AFL
36:08
Speaker 1: had come around and had sort of driven up the
36:11
Speaker 1: bidding after the television money was starting to flow into
36:14
Speaker 1: the NFL. And so now the NFL was starting to
36:17
Speaker 1: become lucrative. And here you have Woody Hayes still telling people,
36:20
Speaker 1: I think you should go to grad school. Don't go
36:22
Speaker 1: into the NFL. So it starts to indicate a little
36:26
Speaker 1: bit how behind the times is. But he is, again,
36:28
Speaker 1: he's someone of the world. He could engage you in
36:31
Speaker 1: discussions about Greek philosophers. He was very well educated. The
36:37
Speaker 1: military aspect, he didn't serve. He was enlisted during World
36:40
Speaker 1: War II, served in the Navy. He wasn't engaged in
36:43
Speaker 1: active theater of combat. The ship he was aboard, though,
36:47
Speaker 1: was scheduled to invade Japan. It was going to be
36:50
Speaker 1: part of that invasion. I think three days before they
36:55
Speaker 1: were going to ship out is the bombing of Hiroshima
36:59
Speaker 1: and Nagasaki. And, of course, Japan surrenders. And Woody Hayes,
37:04
Speaker 1: you know, for all the controversy that's followed the decision
37:07
Speaker 1: to drop the bomb, Woody Hayes feels indebted to President
37:11
Speaker 1: Truman because he thinks he probably would have died if
37:15
Speaker 1: they'd gone ahead with the invasion of Japan.
37:16
Speaker 2: But what's interesting and what I learned in reading this
37:20
Speaker 2: is how much the athletes who were serving in World
37:22
Speaker 2: War II, that there was a mixed, you know, the
37:25
Speaker 2: military leaders didn't always want the well-known athletes. And at
37:29
Speaker 2: the time, Woody Hayes had some regional notoriety. They didn't
37:32
Speaker 2: want those guys on the front lines. And Woody had
37:37
Speaker 2: to almost, you know, he went out of his way.
37:39
Speaker 2: He wanted a little more action. He wanted to be
37:42
Speaker 2: more of a part of the war effort and not
37:44
Speaker 2: just help, you know, stateside or just help on that front.
37:49
Speaker 2: But he, unlike some of the other famous athletes who
37:54
Speaker 2: served in World War II, he wasn't really, you know,
37:58
Speaker 2: he didn't love being protected from the front lines.
38:01
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think he was a little sheepish that, you know,
38:03
Speaker 1: people would say, Oh, he's he's a world virtue veteran.
38:04
Speaker 2: He said, well, I didn't actually, he didn't know. I, I, yeah, I, I,
38:09
Speaker 2: I know that I have a, I have an, uh,
38:11
Speaker 2: my late grandfather participated in the war effort in different
38:15
Speaker 2: ways and would always be very careful.
38:18
Speaker 1: I didn't serve.
38:18
Speaker 2: No, no, no. I was not on the front lines.
38:20
Speaker 2: Like there was almost embarrassment for my grandfather on that.
38:25
Speaker 1: Yeah. My, my grandfather was rejected because he was too
38:28
Speaker 1: small and, uh, he felt shame, you know, because he
38:32
Speaker 1: couldn't serve. He wanted to serve. And the crazy thing,
38:36
Speaker 1: I found the rejection notice once and I realized the date,
38:39
Speaker 1: it was dated two years before the birth of my mother.
38:43
Speaker 1: So I'm looking at this document. It's one of the
38:45
Speaker 1: most important documents in the history of your life. Because
38:50
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I exist if he goes off to war.
38:53
Speaker 1: You know, my mother probably isn't born. Something I didn't
38:56
Speaker 1: know until the research for this episode is that Woody Hayes'
39:00
Speaker 1: hot-headedness might have cost Ohio State basketball's program a shot
39:04
Speaker 1: at having Bobby Knight coach the team. This is a
39:06
Speaker 1: good one. Sliding doors moments for this episode. I know
39:09
Speaker 1: you love those. So Knight had played at Ohio State.
39:12
Speaker 1: He was an alum, and he really loved Woody Hayes.
39:15
Speaker 1: You can imagine.
39:16
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. You're like, I'm just shocked, shocked that Bobby
39:20
Speaker 2: Knight looked up to Woody Hayes as a coach.
39:25
Speaker 1: So Knight was coming off that 1976 undefeated championship and
39:29
Speaker 1: Ohio State's basketball coach had just resigned after the 6-20 season.
39:32
Speaker 1: And Knight was willing to leave all that he had
39:35
Speaker 1: going on in Indiana and come back to his alma mater.
39:37
Speaker 1: Probably the only place he would even consider leaving Indiana
39:41
Speaker 1: for at that point. He had a great recruiting class
39:42
Speaker 1: coming in. But Ohio State President Harold Leroy Anderson balked
39:47
Speaker 1: at the prospect of having to deal with Woody Hayes
39:49
Speaker 1: And Bob Knight. He figured one hothead was enough. That
39:52
Speaker 1: was way too much personality and volatility for him. So
39:57
Speaker 1: he was kind of wavering, not so sure. While he
40:00
Speaker 1: was kind of wavering around, Knight lost patience, withdrew his
40:03
Speaker 1: name from the search process. He stayed in Indiana where
40:06
Speaker 1: he'd win two more national championships, but wouldn't get to
40:09
Speaker 1: leave on his own terms. So maybe that was the
40:12
Speaker 1: Ohio State in him. He kind of fit in with
40:15
Speaker 1: this legacy of Ohio State football coaches.
40:17
Speaker 2: Not to get off on a tangent here, but boy,
40:21
Speaker 2: Ohio State basketball is a story of almosts, right? They
40:25
Speaker 2: talk about a program that is always chasing other programs,
40:30
Speaker 2: never has quite had the success that you would think
40:34
Speaker 2: a school the size and with the financial resources that
40:37
Speaker 2: they have in basketball. And they've had some great coaches
40:42
Speaker 2: come and go and go through that place. Gary Williams.
40:45
Speaker 2: who's pretty popular in this neck of the woods where
40:48
Speaker 2: I'm taping, is certainly one of them. But to go
40:52
Speaker 2: back to football here, Hayes wasn't one-dimensional. He literally wasn't
40:55
Speaker 2: someone driven literally to win at all costs. What's amazing
41:00
Speaker 2: is how many anecdotes and stories we came across of
41:04
Speaker 2: him just refusing payment for something. He practically refused to
41:08
Speaker 2: take raises unless they were inserted into his paycheck against
41:12
Speaker 2: his will. He was philosophically opposed to a football coach
41:17
Speaker 2: making more than the state's governor. I don't think Ryan
41:21
Speaker 2: Day is worried about Mike DeWine's salary these days. But,
41:25
Speaker 2: you know, that's something else, right? Like he cared about
41:29
Speaker 2: those things. Of course, I remember reading the first time
41:32
Speaker 2: that Babe Ruth made more money than the president. And
41:34
Speaker 2: that was considered a big deal back in the day.
41:38
Speaker 1: But, you know, I had a better year, right?
41:40
Speaker 2: Yes, I was supposedly, you know, too good to check.
41:44
Speaker 2: When he finally when Hayes was finally fired and they
41:46
Speaker 2: cleaned out his office, this was remarkable. They found all
41:49
Speaker 2: these uncashed checks. It would be from a charity fundraiser
41:52
Speaker 2: appearance and he would just people would hand him appearance
41:55
Speaker 2: fee checks. And if it was for a charity, he
41:58
Speaker 2: never cashed them. He would just sit there and just,
42:02
Speaker 2: you know, let it go undone. It is it is
42:08
Speaker 2: just it's clear that he didn't he just loved doing
42:11
Speaker 2: what he did. And he loved talking about it. And
42:14
Speaker 2: if you, particularly if you were in a small town
42:17
Speaker 2: or in a rural part of Ohio or really any
42:20
Speaker 2: part of the state, if you invited Woody, he'd come.
42:23
Speaker 2: You didn't have to pay him to be there. He'd come.
42:25
Speaker 2: These towns would inevitably pay him and he would never
42:29
Speaker 2: cash those checks.
42:31
Speaker 1: You know, it's fascinating to examine Hayes in depth like this,
42:34
Speaker 1: because for people like you and me, we're the children
42:36
Speaker 1: of baby boomers. And we're so used to hearing about
42:38
Speaker 1: the 1960s from the youth perspective. from the agents of change,
42:42
Speaker 1: but we don't hear as often about what it felt
42:44
Speaker 1: like to be the establishment. And Woody Hayes represented the
42:48
Speaker 1: mainstream for a long time. That's the thing. We think
42:50
Speaker 1: of him as being out of touch, but no, he
42:53
Speaker 1: was the mainstream for a long time until he wasn't.
42:56
Speaker 1: And younger people, for example, might not realize that the
42:59
Speaker 1: polling showed the majority of the country was in favor
43:01
Speaker 1: of the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War for most
43:03
Speaker 1: of the 1960s. Woody Hayes certainly believed it. So that
43:07
Speaker 1: didn't make him out of touch the whole time.
43:10
Speaker 2: No, we always have a way of revising history, right?
43:13
Speaker 2: When we know, you know, we forget, we forget how
43:16
Speaker 2: supportive everybody was for the Iraq war. Now we think
43:19
Speaker 2: it's one of these great mistakes of the early aughts.
43:22
Speaker 2: You know, Vietnam is a similar story. And, you know,
43:26
Speaker 2: there's a reason Nixon won 49 states in 1972. You know,
43:33
Speaker 2: people believed their government when they said this was important
43:36
Speaker 2: to defeat the communists and the Soviet Union. And and
43:39
Speaker 2: Woody Hayes was, you know, this is what his government
43:42
Speaker 2: told him. He this is what he believed. He he
43:46
Speaker 2: you know, he believed in this. You know, it's a troops. Yeah,
43:51
Speaker 2: he did. And he would support the troops quite a bit.
43:54
Speaker 2: He would he would talk to the troops and he
43:56
Speaker 2: was very supportive of. There's this great story that he
44:00
Speaker 2: goes and visits a whole bunch of troops in Vietnam
44:02
Speaker 2: and he goes back and and contacts every parent of
44:05
Speaker 2: every troop he met to let him know he they
44:07
Speaker 2: were OK. You know, we focused so much on Bear
44:12
Speaker 2: Bryant being tied up in the middle of the civil
44:14
Speaker 2: rights movement in Alabama in the 60s. You know, what
44:17
Speaker 2: was interesting is Hayes being caught up not in that movement.
44:20
Speaker 2: And he was never really, you know, he didn't stand
44:23
Speaker 2: in the way of civil rights. He was recruiting African-American players.
44:26
Speaker 2: That was in some ways the culture of the North
44:29
Speaker 2: versus the culture of the South. But in the ways
44:32
Speaker 2: that he sort of arguably ran into the culture of
44:37
Speaker 2: the 60s was with Vietnam.
44:39
Speaker 1: Yeah. And these things coexisting. We were just so locked
44:43
Speaker 1: in on the civil rights movement that episode.
44:44
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, there's nothing about it here with Woody.
44:47
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
44:47
Speaker 2: And look, this is Ohio. This is the home of
44:50
Speaker 2: Kent State.
44:51
Speaker 1: Right.
44:51
Speaker 2: It was just an entirely just as explosive.
44:57
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah.
44:58
Speaker 2: But a totally different.
44:59
Speaker 1: Right.
44:59
Speaker 2: So the north is on fire in Vietnam. The south
45:02
Speaker 2: is on fire in civil rights. it's a reminder you
45:05
Speaker 2: and I weren't born yet in 68, but yeah, there's
45:07
Speaker 2: a reason people talk about 68 as one of the
45:09
Speaker 2: most important years in American history.
45:11
Speaker 1: Unbelievable amount of change that, you know, Alabama was literally
45:14
Speaker 1: a battleground in the civil rights movement. Um, but integration
45:18
Speaker 1: hadn't been completely settled in the big 10 country, but
45:21
Speaker 1: it really wasn't at the forefront like it was in
45:24
Speaker 1: the South. Michigan state really led the way in this regard. Uh,
45:27
Speaker 1: but it's not like Hayes and Ohio state were lagging
45:31
Speaker 1: woefully behind. Right. Um, He started five straight black quarterbacks
45:35
Speaker 1: in the 1970s. And by then, Hayes had let his
45:38
Speaker 1: players have facial hair. The black players could grow afros.
45:41
Speaker 1: So it really wasn't, you know, it's not like he
45:46
Speaker 1: was completely unwilling to change and to move along with
45:49
Speaker 1: the times. And lucky for him in Ohio State that
45:54
Speaker 1: he was on the right side and in touch with
45:57
Speaker 1: the times because it could be perilous if he didn't
45:59
Speaker 1: get this right. So take Indiana and their coach, John Ponce.
46:02
Speaker 1: November 1969, 14 black players at Indiana registered their unhappiness
46:07
Speaker 1: with the racial atmosphere in Indiana. They called it, quote,
46:10
Speaker 1: mentally depressing and morally discouraging. Nine players wind up quitting.
46:15
Speaker 1: The Hoosiers lose their last three games in 1969. They
46:18
Speaker 1: lose 20 of 22 over the next three seasons. This
46:21
Speaker 1: was a team that had gone 9-2 and played in
46:23
Speaker 1: the Rose Bowl two years earlier. And it feels like
46:26
Speaker 1: this moment set the program back for decades, right? They
46:29
Speaker 1: only had 10 winning seasons from 1969. until Kurt Cignetti's
46:34
Speaker 1: first season in 2024.
46:37
Speaker 2: That's an interesting framing of it. It is a reminder
46:41
Speaker 2: how this stuff, you get it wrong, you're right. It
46:43
Speaker 2: doesn't just derail you for a couple of seasons. It
46:46
Speaker 2: can derail you for, in this case, two generations. So
46:51
Speaker 2: it's an indication of how things could have gone if
46:53
Speaker 2: Hayes had been negligent in that area. And of course,
46:56
Speaker 2: maybe he doesn't even survive to the 1978 infamous Gator
47:00
Speaker 2: Bowl incident. But We'll also never know how close the
47:03
Speaker 2: Oz State campus might have been to tragedy because of
47:05
Speaker 2: the cresting over the conflict of Vietnam. In 1970, the
47:09
Speaker 2: protests are coming to a head. There were strikes and
47:11
Speaker 2: boycotts on campus from various groups in April into May.
47:16
Speaker 2: The National Guard came in. The Ohio Highway Patrol came in.
47:20
Speaker 2: Tear gas. 49 people are arrested. 50 are injured. The
47:24
Speaker 2: next day, there's 400 arrests, 131 injuries reported by the Lantern,
47:27
Speaker 2: which was the student newspaper. Then on May 4th, Kent State.
47:31
Speaker 2: happens that's 145 miles away from ohio state ohio state
47:36
Speaker 2: closes school from may 6th through may 19th because they
47:39
Speaker 2: worried something was going to happen it seems like it
47:41
Speaker 2: could have very easily been ohio state uh instead of
47:44
Speaker 2: kent state but in some ways um maybe ohio state
47:49
Speaker 2: just got lucky yeah it wasn't and i mean i
47:52
Speaker 2: don't think there's another way of looking at.
47:53
Speaker 1: It and Not to trivialize it, but we're focusing on
47:57
Speaker 1: the football problem. You wonder what the impact might have
47:59
Speaker 1: been on the football team. If Ohio State becomes synonymous,
48:04
Speaker 1: Kent State means one thing and one thing only. I
48:07
Speaker 1: was just going to.
48:07
Speaker 2: Say, even to this day, you and I were not
48:10
Speaker 2: alive when Kent State happened. I think we were just
48:14
Speaker 2: about to be born. We were ideas, at least in
48:17
Speaker 2: our parents' head.
48:18
Speaker 1: For a while, they went by Kent State. Because they
48:20
Speaker 1: wanted to get away from that negative association with Kent State.
48:24
Speaker 1: And I think they gave it up and came back.
48:26
Speaker 1: But that could be what we know at House State for.
48:28
Speaker 2: I use Kent State as a, you know, I talk
48:30
Speaker 2: about it during the Gaza protests. I'm like, well, they're
48:33
Speaker 2: not as big as Vietnam because they're not happening at
48:36
Speaker 2: Kent State. You know, it's in some ways, think about
48:40
Speaker 2: how emotional the country was over Vietnam. Kent State, this
48:47
Speaker 2: is not a huge state university. We're not talking the
48:50
Speaker 2: University of Michigan. We're not talking Berkeley. We're not talking
48:53
Speaker 2: Harvard Yard, right? It was, in some ways, became a
48:59
Speaker 2: bigger deal because it was happening at Kent State, a
49:01
Speaker 2: school that any American could.
49:03
Speaker 1: Have ended up at. Right. And it shows that, yeah,
49:06
Speaker 1: it's not the liberal left coast or east coast, right?
49:09
Speaker 1: It is in middle America now with all these protests.
49:12
Speaker 1: Ann Arbor certainly had a lot going on. The book
49:14
Speaker 1: talks about that. I kind of skimmed through the Schemblecker
49:16
Speaker 1: parts for purposes of preparation for this podcast, but you know,
49:20
Speaker 1: Ann Arbor was a much more liberal much more activism
49:24
Speaker 1: going on in terms of this but you know we're
49:28
Speaker 1: seeing though that Hayes isn't adjusting with the times on
49:32
Speaker 1: this issue in particular right so.
49:34
Speaker 2: He's still pro war 1968 yeah and as.
49:35
Speaker 1: We said Earlier on, he was in the mainstream, but
49:41
Speaker 1: by 68, that's when it really shifts, right? Walter Cronkite
49:44
Speaker 1: goes over to see things for himself, the revered anchor
49:47
Speaker 1: of CBS News, the most trusted voice on American television.
49:51
Speaker 1: He comes back and he declares that this war is
49:54
Speaker 1: unwinnable for the U.S. And that really is a pivotal point, right?
49:58
Speaker 1: And American polling and opinion starts to shift. And by 1969,
50:02
Speaker 1: the Ohio State University president, Robin Fleming, he comes out
50:06
Speaker 1: against the U.S. war in Vietnam. Woody Hayes never did. No,
50:12
Speaker 1: it is.
50:13
Speaker 2: And while his worldview is being rejected on Vietnam, it's
50:17
Speaker 2: being reinforced when it comes to Richard Nixon. Hayes had
50:19
Speaker 2: known Nixon since Nixon was vice president in 1957, and
50:23
Speaker 2: now he's rewarded with a friend in a very powerful place.
50:29
Speaker 2: But then Watergate came along, and yet it doesn't change
50:32
Speaker 2: how Hayes feels about Nixon. I mean, he stands by him,
50:34
Speaker 2: even through Watergate. The only thing he's disappointed by is
50:37
Speaker 2: Nixon's resignation. He thought he never should have given in.
50:42
Speaker 2: Hayes just couldn't deal with the fact that Nixon decided
50:45
Speaker 2: to be a quitter. You know, it's funny. I've, um, um, I've, uh,
50:51
Speaker 2: there's only one other person who, who I've read who
50:54
Speaker 2: was critical of Nixon as a quitter. And it was
50:56
Speaker 2: Roy Cohn, um, whose biggest criticism of Nixon was, was
51:00
Speaker 2: not fighting. Um, and I guess we know, you know,
51:04
Speaker 2: that that was sort of Hayes's mindset is, you know,
51:06
Speaker 2: don't back down and, you know, whether you think you're
51:09
Speaker 2: right or wrong, don't back down. And, and that, I
51:11
Speaker 2: think what made him a good football coach doesn't necessarily
51:15
Speaker 2: make you a good politician.
51:16
Speaker 1: Oh, so, you know, it's interesting coming up for our
51:19
Speaker 1: green base Packers episode. I noticed some parallels between Hayes
51:23
Speaker 1: and Vince Lombardi. Lombardi had a teaching background. Hayes was
51:26
Speaker 1: also a teacher with a passion for learning and football wise.
51:29
Speaker 1: They had a similar approach, you know, rather than a
51:30
Speaker 1: wide buffet of plays, they prefer to have a small
51:33
Speaker 1: diet of plays and practice them to perfection and dare
51:36
Speaker 1: anyone to stop them. Lombardi had that power suite, um,
51:41
Speaker 1: Hayes sometimes would call as few as a dozen different
51:43
Speaker 1: plays a game. That's not a lot. His favorite two
51:47
Speaker 1: plays were 26, that's the off-tackle run to the right,
51:50
Speaker 1: and 27, which is the off-tackle run to the left. Oh,
51:53
Speaker 1: and just like Lombardi, there's a Paul Horning character in
51:56
Speaker 1: this story. Only this Paul Horning, no relation to the
51:59
Speaker 1: Packers star, was a sports writer for the Columbus Dispatch.
52:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, Hayes was certainly Lombardi-like when it came
52:05
Speaker 2: to the results on the field. Lombardi won his first
52:07
Speaker 2: NFL championship in his third season in Green Bay. Woody
52:09
Speaker 2: Hayes won his first with an undefeated season in year four.
52:14
Speaker 2: It is interesting to me that he never fully evolved.
52:17
Speaker 2: And here's a question for you, J.A. If Clemson never happens,
52:24
Speaker 2: if that incident never happens, does he evolve as the
52:30
Speaker 2: game is evolving into a passing game in the early 80s?
52:33
Speaker 2: Or does he... Stay Barry Switzer, right? Switzer was the
52:38
Speaker 2: one guy who found success sticking by the wishbone. Ohio
52:42
Speaker 2: State wasn't running the wishbone, but it was sort of
52:44
Speaker 2: a derivative of it. You know, they were all running
52:46
Speaker 2: some form of it. I wonder if he would have
52:52
Speaker 2: slightly evolved as things were going.
52:55
Speaker 1: You're probably right. I doubt it. Well, it's funny. There's
52:58
Speaker 1: one time where he kind of listens. Like, so there's
53:01
Speaker 1: a famous 10-10 tie against Michigan. And he didn't call
53:08
Speaker 1: a pass. Just the one where they vote? Yeah, they
53:10
Speaker 1: wind up voting. It becomes very controversial.
53:12
Speaker 2: To see who goes to the Rose Bowl.
53:13
Speaker 1: Right. Because they not only tied in the game, it
53:15
Speaker 1: meant they wound up being tied in the Big Ten standings.
53:19
Speaker 1: But in that game, the players were mad because he
53:24
Speaker 1: didn't call for a pass until the fourth quarter. After
53:26
Speaker 1: it was tied 10-10, he's like, all right, we better
53:28
Speaker 1: do something. Okay, we can pass now. And the players...
53:32
Speaker 1: even though the Big Ten athletic directors voted Ohio State
53:36
Speaker 1: somewhat controversially to represent the Big Ten in the Rose Bowl,
53:40
Speaker 1: the players weren't sure that they wanted to go because, like,
53:42
Speaker 1: we're just going to go and he's not going to
53:43
Speaker 1: let us throw a pass again. You know, even Archie Griffin,
53:46
Speaker 1: the running back, was like, we need to pass the
53:48
Speaker 1: ball more. And he relents. He winds up, they wind
53:52
Speaker 1: up throwing 12 passes in a game, which was a
53:54
Speaker 1: lot for Woody Hayes' coach team. So he could change
53:58
Speaker 1: a little bit. That was one time where he listened
54:01
Speaker 1: and adapted somewhat. But it's not like he turned into
54:04
Speaker 1: a Steve Spurrier type offense.
54:05
Speaker 2: No, but I do feel like he took the Pac-10 schools,
54:10
Speaker 2: regularly beating these Big Ten schools in the 80s and
54:14
Speaker 2: the 70s with more passing teams, with more wide-open offenses,
54:18
Speaker 2: which was sort of the calling card, whether it was USC, UCLA, Washington.
54:24
Speaker 2: Those were sort of the three, I felt like the
54:27
Speaker 2: three teams you'd see the most in the Rose Bowl
54:29
Speaker 2: back then. And occasionally, I think Arizona State slipped in
54:33
Speaker 2: there once, Washington State, maybe a Stanford. But all of them,
54:37
Speaker 2: all of them were throwing the ball a lot more
54:39
Speaker 2: than the Big Ten schools. And for a while, it
54:41
Speaker 2: seemed like the Big Ten was sort of stuck in
54:45
Speaker 2: another era every time you'd watch a Rose Bowl. I
54:48
Speaker 2: feel like every Rose Bowl game of my childhood kind
54:50
Speaker 2: of ended the same way. Oh, a slow Big Ten
54:53
Speaker 2: team gets outrun by the Pac-10 team.
54:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it literally did. in that way for Woody
55:01
Speaker 1: Hayes and Bo Semblecker. You know, I'd argue that Woody Hayes'
55:06
Speaker 1: coaching tree, if we're comparing him to Lombardi, his is superior. Hayes'
55:10
Speaker 1: assistants included Eric Parsegian, Lou Holtz, and most notable of all,
55:15
Speaker 1: Bo Schembechler himself.
55:17
Speaker 2: Well, that's what's amazing that they're, you know, they had
55:19
Speaker 2: this rivalry, but, you know, he was the Padawan, right?
55:22
Speaker 2: Schembechler was a grad assistant under Hayes in 1952, and
55:25
Speaker 2: then it was a full assistant from 1958 to 1962.
55:28
Speaker 2: He left to become the head coach at Miami of Ohio, which,
55:31
Speaker 2: of course, is well-known as a cradle of coaches, Eric
55:35
Speaker 2: Parsegian being one, from 63 to 68. And then, of course,
55:39
Speaker 2: he goes to Michigan, and it is on. That's for sure.
55:43
Speaker 1: All right. Well, that's the end of our first episode
55:47
Speaker 1: on the Buckeyes. In part two, Chuck and I will
55:49
Speaker 1: chronicle the intense rivalry between Hayes and Schembechler that developed
55:53
Speaker 1: how Hayes' coaching career ended with a thud, or a punch,
55:56
Speaker 1: that is. to the chest of a Clemson player, the
55:58
Speaker 1: career of Jim Trestle, an amazing coach whose tenure ended
56:00
Speaker 1: not with a punch but with four players selling gear,
56:03
Speaker 1: exchange for tattoos and other services, and, of course, the
56:05
Speaker 1: rise and fall of Urban Meyer. A reminder to please
56:09
Speaker 1: follow us on social media, at DynasticPod, and to follow, like,
56:12
Speaker 1: and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts and
56:15
Speaker 1: on our YouTube channel.
56:18
Speaker 2: We will see you for the next episode next time
56:21
Speaker 2: right here on Dynastic.