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Golden State Gimmes & Lument's Lament · The Promote Podcast

• Hiten Samtani (00:03) If an apartment's made affordable according to AMI. Will Krasne (00:06) And no one can hear it. Hiten Samtani (00:07) Does it still get a tax abatement? Welcome back to the Promote Podcast, your insider guide to the money and mania of the CRE markets. I'm Hiten Samtani. Will Krasne (00:24) And I'm Will Krasne Hiten Samtani (00:27) Shout out to our sponsors, Harvard University's AMDP, the leadership program for mid to senior CRE execs. Will Krasne (00:33) Bravo Capital, a leading HUD and Bridge Lender. Hiten Samtani (00:36) Lone LoanBoss AI, your control room for your CRA debt. Will Krasne (00:42) We'll do it live. Okay. We'll do it live! Fuck it! Do it live! Hiten Samtani (00:49) Live pod. Yeah. Will Krasne (00:51) Manhattan, November fifth. Location undisclosed. Hiten Samtani (00:56) We've got a first round of invites out to some folks. We'll be sending another one this week, so look out for that golden ticket. We hope you can join us. Will Krasne (01:04) nervous but I'm also a huge narcissist, so I just assume it's gonna be like full and go amazing. So Hiten Samtani (01:10) Buddy, that makes two of us. And if you really, really want to come and you haven't seen an invite, shoot us a note and the most compelling notes will get in. Will Krasne (01:18) Send them to podcast at the promote.com. He didn't even give you the address because he doesn't really want you to come. That's why Hiten Samtani (01:24) Ha ha ha. This week we get into America and the potential return of a big agency lender. Lument on the blog, and sources speculate that it might be coming home to its original owner, the billionaire Hunt family out of Texas. We then head further west to the Golden State, where a spiritual cousin of the traveling HFC has created a lucrative loophole for, quote, affordable housing players. It's a fabulous case study in gaming the system. Will Krasne (01:51) Actually I'd always called it Lument, but there we go. Yeah, who knows. But before we get into those stories, let's start with the punch list, our signature rundown of the newsiest news in C R E. And of course, the punch list is brought to you by H Equities, the place to find that last piece of the cap stack you need, whether it's Co- GP or Bridge Dead. Find them at hequities.com That's hequities.com And congratulations to Friend of the Pod Z plus G property group on closing a deal in Park Slope with H Equities. Three letters down, twenty-three letters to go. So Hiten Samtani (02:27) Also, happy 50th birthday to one of the longtime supporters of the show, JP Conklin. This guy's done it all, man. Will Krasne (02:34) His email today talking about all the things he's done, I did not expect fast roping out of a helicopter. I mean I knew that intuitively, but you know, truly a renaissance man. All right. Hiten Samtani (02:46) First one. So another mega construction loan package in Miami, David Martin's Terra Group got a 500 million-ish loan from who else? Adi Chugh Tyco, which is backed by Elliott Management. Now, this is happening all over South Florida. It's been actually astonishing to see. This one though is even more notable because I believe it is one of the very few that is getting that slug of money without pre-sales. Will Krasne (03:10) Speaks to the quality of the sponsor, quality of location, right in Miami Beach. And David Martin, of course, is like a man of the moment in Miami. He is everywhere. I mean, he's even on some random Instagram influencers reel that I saw where he o there was some shopping center, it was a public sanched center, and he goes, You know who owns this center? It's David Martin. Hiten Samtani (03:30) And also sweet talk and abuela into giving him the deal that he needed, if you remember. Will Krasne (03:34) I do remember. Hiten Samtani (03:35) Presales are historically the engine of the South Florida market. Will Krasne (03:38) You're able to use the deposits towards your construction, which is is incredibly creative because you don't have to draw your construction loan dollar for dollar. You don't have to pay interest expense and all the assorted soft costs. And it means no equity in. Instead of having to empty your own bank account, you can empty your clients. Hiten Samtani (03:56) Friend of the pod, David Hockfelder of Nuftali, had described it, he's like, it's almost like an having an option on the last. Will Krasne (04:02) paying a little bit of premium, but again, that premium's not coming from you. Hiten Samtani (04:05) All right, next one. Tishman Spire. They're back at the Chrysler. They have a hundred and fifty year ground lease in place with Cooper Union, which owns the fee. They're the only modern players who made money on this thing. Will Krasne (04:16) We talk about round tripping a deal, which means you buy it and you sell it and whatever. The best round trips though are the ones where someone bought and sold it decades ago and then comes back. So we talked about related six twenty-five Madison. This is the case here. Hiten Samtani (04:29) The deal is valued at about 235 million, which includes, I believe, the CapEx. And there's a lot that needs to be done. This is one of the most recognizable addresses in the world. Does it even have an address? Will Krasne (04:40) It doesn't you can send mail to the Chrysler building. It's one of the handful. I think the Flatiron Buildings like this too, where you can just write Hatan Samtani the Flatiron Building and it'll get there. Yeah. Hiten Samtani (04:51) I really want that for the promote HQ. There's quite a task here because it needs a lot of love. Will Krasne (04:55) It does. And this is not also one where you can get Sony or the law firm to take the entire building. It's just not laid out like that. This is smaller suites. It's going to be pre-built, which I think is actually a good product and a good use case for this market, especially this location, but it's going to cost a lot of money because there's a ton of deferred here. The ground lease was really taking all of the value and all the cash flow. And so this thing's capital starved. A B had a big plan there. I almost said Abi. had a big plan there with Cigna, but then of course we had the unpleasantness and it's really been it's Hiten Samtani (05:29) Trouble. Will Krasne (05:30) been capital starved. So Tishman is gonna have to pump in a ton of capital. Hiten Samtani (05:35) correction there. Tishman's equity partner, PSP, the Canadian pensions are gonna be doing that part. Will Krasne (05:40) Of course the the Royal Tishman is gonna have to pump in a a lot of capital, but it might be the right product for the moment with these smaller built out suites. They've done it once, they're the only people to do it, so maybe they can do it again. Hiten Samtani (05:52) All right, next one. Will Krasne (05:55) Royal Bank of Canada, owners of a little over 3% of HR REIT stock, are voting against the buyout by Blackstone, Go partners, and I think most controversially, the CEO. So apparently the proxy just came out. They turned down cash bids in 2025, and big shareholders like RBC and Millpond are voting against it as the stock has gone below the pre announcement price. And I think there's a little bit of reading between lines, a little bit of hanky panky here. with the management team. Hiten Samtani (06:25) Remember the parcel's gonna be split out where ten thousand odds sunbelt focused multifamily is supposed to go to Go Residential Reet, which is Mayor Orbach and Josh Gottlieb. And then you've got the industrial holdings that are supposed to go to Blackstone. That's the whole thing. Will Krasne (06:40) What's interesting here though too is that it combines with the Jonah Raknitz lawsuit against GoPartn. Hiten Samtani (06:47) He went to Ontario securities regulators with his grievances. Will Krasne (06:51) He essentially wanted to speak to the manager. Hiten Samtani (06:55) All right, next one. Our guys, BDT MSD. Guys, please change your name. You're a real player. Figure it out. BDT and MSD partners are taking a majority stake in Sunrise Senior Living, which is the fifth largest owner in the sector, has over 230 communities. Will Krasne (07:11) PSP aforementioned. We're the seller. And Sunrise was interesting here is that senior housing, everyone is bullish on it for the most part because of demographics. We There's tons of demographic tailwinds, lack of supply, all that good stuff. But what's interesting here is that Sunrise actually operates a lot of these through management agreements. I think they only own about a quarter. So it's really kind of like a hotel company. These are also super high end. I think the average charge across their portfolio is $10,000 a month. This is like very high touch. And BDT MSD has a lot of history in the hospitality space, both as a lender and as an equity owner. This Is a different asset class, but similar type execution to what they've done before. So interesting to see them take such a big stake. And of course, BDT MSD, it's not even really Michael Dell's family office anymore. I mean, he's on the board. Hiten Samtani (08:06) It's well past that now. Will Krasne (08:07) Yeah, it's just an asset manager. In fact, he has a family office called DFO, which just bought Baldwin, the insurance broker. We talked about round tripping deals, but we also love when the family office creates another family office. Hiten Samtani (08:19) Okay, next one. boy. DSTs, Delaware statutory trusts are on the rise. Equity raised for DSTs totaled about seven and a half billion at the end of September. That's about a twenty seven percent increase from this time last year. Will Krasne (08:34) Friends don't let friends invest in DSTs. I'm just kidding. Hiten Samtani (08:37) I mean there's a lot of fee juicing that goes on. Will Krasne (08:39) There's a lot of feed juicing. We've seen a bunch of big players now create their own DST vehicles. Hiten Samtani (08:44) Hines, Blackstone, you name it. Will Krasne (08:46) And so essentially what happens is if you have a 1031, you can pool it into this bigger property. So if you sell a gas station, you can buy a class A apartment building in Richmond through Cap Square or somebody like that. Real estate is one of the most tax advantaged major asset classes. This is another way people are utilizing that structure to their advantage, but there ain't no free lunch. You are paying up front for these types of things. And the way they work in a lot of cases is that the company will buy something on their balance sheet and then Fill it over time because again, the timing's pretty tight here. If you have like a 45-day ID period and then a 180-day closing period that doesn't always track with transaction windows, so they will close on something and then you will see it recorded, and then you can find the offering memo out there saying $250,000 minimum investment for our brand new property that we're we've just acquired and renamed. Hiten Samtani (09:36) Ever a change in valuation from that step to the next one? Will Krasne (09:40) No sé. Hiten Samtani (09:42) That's it for the punch list. When we come back, we talk about why affordable is just a state of mind. Will Krasne (09:54) If you're a mid to senior CRE striver, we have news for you. School's back in session in the best possible way. Hiten Samtani (10:00) Registration for Harvard's AMDP, their advanced management development program in real estate, is now open with the class kicking off in July 2027. Will Krasne (10:09) As a GP running his own shop, I get it. I spend all day in my own deal flow, my own markets, my own cap stack. It's hard to see around the corner when the corner is the only thing that I ever look at. Hiten Samtani (10:19) And AMDP is a few weeks of being inspired to look elsewhere. Faculty-led cases pulled from every asset class, and a cohort of operators who are seeing cycles that you aren't, different geographies, different product types, different capital. Will Krasne (10:31) You merge with a map of the whole board, not just your own square. Plus, let's be real, it's Harvard. The network compounds faster than default interest. Hiten Samtani (10:40) See if Harvard AMDP is for you at their website. We'll drop it in the show notes. And tell our friends there that the promote sent you. Regular listeners slash readers of the promote will know how obsessed we are with this vehicle out of Texas called the Traveling HFC. Delighted today because we found essentially its spiritual soul sister in California, the Golden State. Will Krasne (11:04) Texas does it bigger, but California does it just worse. Hiten Samtani (11:10) What we're talking about is this loophole called a welfare tax exemption. And essentially, if you as a multifamily owner pledge to keep units affordable, which means at 80% AMI, you can get your property taxes wiped out. The issue is that in many cases, the 80% AMI threshold is at or even above market rent. So essentially you give up nothing and you get to take everything. Will Krasne (11:37) I feel like it's a Marvel commercial where it's like Thanos being like you go out or something like that. I don't know. But yes, that's exactly right. Because there's one thing we do know about California. It is incredibly unaffordable. And the reason it's unaffordable is because people make a lot of money. The AMIs for these areas are staggering. This article in the San Francisco Chronicle, we'll link to it in the show. Hiten Samtani (11:55) Amazing dive, by the way. Very well done. Chronicle did a great job of breaking down exactly the discrepancy between the AMI and the market rents. Will Krasne (12:04) You have a program which is supposed to keep rents affordable for working class folks, but you're anchoring it to everybody. If Jeff Bezos is in your neighborhood and everyone else can make zero dollars and the AMI in that A neighborhood is still very high. Hiten Samtani (12:19) And when real estate players see a loophole, they go all in. So we're seeing a lot of longtime players in the affordable housing world. Margaret Anadu, who used to be the head of Goldman Sachs's Urban Investment Group, which is a storied community-driven division of the firm. She co-founded the CRE division at Vistria and they became a big player here. Tesseract Capital out of San Francisco, the same. And then one of our key characters in the whole traveling HFC drama, Jason Post, Post Investment Group, he's all over this as well. Will Krasne (12:47) When you're looking at an investment, right, top line is always a lot harder to underrate than expenses because you don't control it. At the end of the day, the r rents. Yeah, the rents are kind of the rents. You can do better on the edges with better management if you don't have great comp set, or you can renovate or improve the quality of your product. But the rents are the rents. If you can pitch an expense savings story, whether it's RM, a better insurance policy through a captive or Some sort of other big savings, that's a lot more achievable because it's a lot more in your control. Yeah. And the number one line item in OpEx and multifamily in any real estate is property taxes. So if you can take those property taxes to zero, not only is it a great return, which it is, but the risk adjusted return is incredible because again, you control this. The market can stay flat. You don't care. It is unbelievably accretive. And add on the fact that you're allowed to increase these rents. higher than what market is. A key point of this article, there's section eight tenants in a lot of these buildings, and the section eight tenants pay thirty percent of whatever the rent is, the government pays the remainder, and that means the taxpayer pays the remainder. Hiten Samtani (14:00) Major. To give you a sense of scale, the chronicle estimated that about four billion dollars could come off the tax rolls. This rhymes so much with what we saw with the HFCs, where in major cities like Austin, Dallas, Houston, the tax rolls were getting decimated by these vehicles that were coming from elsewhere. In the Bay Area, in LA, San Diego, and Sacramento as well, 80% AMI rent limits exceed co-star market rents. Will Krasne (14:24) To be fair, I do this. I focus on markets where your market rents qualify for emission driven. Part of that is because it means there's not as much supply because rents haven't kept up with markets, so it's harder to build. I don't get this tax break though, in you know, in my markets, unfortunately. The people here are sort of saying the quiet part out loud, talking about how profitable this is because you know that you're getting these savings. That's the whole point. I sound like a broken record a little bit, but it really is a cheat code. Hiten Samtani (14:50) Let's do a simple breakdown of how you can get to that sweet Valhalla of no property taxes. Will Krasne (14:59) So let's say you buy an older building. In a lot of these markets, Northern California or LA, you have a lot of post war apartment stocks of, you know, 50s, 60s, 70s vintage things. Cause it's been so hard to build. All you need to do is go read abundance and you can see how little we develop housing in California. And what these people do is buy an older building that has in-place rents that are already below the AMI limit. And so they'd go sign a regulatory agreement. With the nonprofit, bring them in, and the regulatory agreement would cap rents at 80% of AMI. In-place rents are below that cap. So they would go push rents to the cap, you use the regulatory agreement and the nonprofit participation to get rid of property tax on the qualifying units. And then you bro down and profit. Hiten Samtani (15:53) The gaming is so naked, right? So the law required for-profit entities to co-own the property with a nonprofit. So that's how you could tap into the exemption. What did our enterprising real estate players go and do? They went and basically created their own nonprofits. A real man makes his own Lagoshi. All right, Dawson. So Jason Post, for example, Jason Post's sister is the founder of something called Foothill, which is the nonprofit. A lawyer for Foil said that Post does not control the nonprofit, but quote, Generously agreed to provide Foothill with various back end support services. Will Krasne (16:27) Like in office and four of seven board members. Hiten Samtani (16:31) What is the st ownership stake in some of these things? Like you could have it as being less than one percent. Also monitoring and enforcement of these AMI thresholds is less than stellar. So what is the solution to this? There are two agencies that are spearheading most of this stuff, which is California Statewide Communities Development Authority and the California Municipal Finance Authority. These are known as joint powers authorities. If you Will Krasne (16:53) Go through this, you don't need city approval. So cities learn about these deals afterwards. Something like 195 or 200 owners have done this in the last three years. CMFA did, I think, eight deals in 2023 to 36 and 24 to 68 and 25. And about a third of those deals are new construction, most of them in LA. If you're delivering new construction, that sort of gives away the ghost a little bit. Hiten Samtani (17:17) Also, the incentives here are a little bit perverse, right? Because the joint powers authorities, they keep a healthy fee when they get these deals done. And about half of that fee goes to the private managers who run them. So it's a pretty lucrative career for those involved. The disclosure standards in these things are patchy at best. Will Krasne (17:34) One thing that we can all agree on is that the more letters you have in the acronym, the less transparent it is. So we're talking about a JPA between the C S C D A and the CMFA. That's Robert Moses' dream. Hiten Samtani (17:48) The Chronicle was reaching out to CSCDA trying to understand more and more about how this actually went down. And the executive director of that organization, Felicia Williams, said that the fees reflect the cost to manage compliance with state laws. And then she said, I hope that in the spirit of supporting more affordable housing in California, you can be respectful of those on the front line of fighting that battle. Will Krasne (18:11) Interesting. You kind of get where the governmental authorities are coming from because to build a new infill project in San Francisco or LA or what have you is unbelievably expensive. With Sequo, which is in the process of hopefully getting struck down and you know, uning all of these things impact fees. You can kind of see how this is still reasonable and why, yes, well, we're gonna keep this affordable to people. Hiten Samtani (18:35) What is the solution for something like this? As we've talked about with the HFCs, schemes have a limited window and you've got you really gotta profit very quickly before it comes to light. Will Krasne (18:46) What we really need, California's taking steps with this, with what's happened with Sequa, is you need to reduce the red tape and make it easier to build more apartments. A good friend of the pod, Marlo Stanfield on Twitter, has written extensively about how the affordable housing system in America is broken and affordable housing development in particular is broken. He's right. And the way we sort of get around that is, you know, not trying to like make these little loopholes or schemes. It's almost sort of burning the whole thing to the ground and just making it easier for people to build. Because We're gonna regulate ourselves. The markets where rents have gone down and it's now more affordable to live are the markets in the Sunbelt where everyone went insane. Was it building? Yeah. Yeah. Look at Austin, Phoenix, those rents are down meaningfully from peak pricing. They're still offering concessions today. And that's despite continued population and job growth. So I think the answer to make things more affordable is to build more housing and make it easier for people to build. Hiten Samtani (19:42) Couple of issues there, right? One is there's already billions of dollars committed to these strategies, which means that there's a lot of political heft that goes with it as well. And two, the way that it's designed for now is that it's not really the government regulating. It's these quasi, these gray areas, which could be very tainted with different objectives and different incentives. It's it's a lot of that, right? Will Krasne (20:05) Yeah, and that's why I'm saying we need to, you know, strip all this and burn it down. There should be w one letter that governs the housing and it's the name of the city that you're in. Hiten Samtani (20:13) Huh. Just like the HFCs, the cities have been pretty pissed off about this. Will Krasne (20:18) Because the cities in a lot of cases didn't approve any of this. And of course, they're the ones who are suffering because they're having the millions of dollars in property taxes taken off their tax roll, which directly goes to their schools, police, fire. And a lot of these cities have been facing budget issues already. And this is just pouring fuel on the fire. Hiten Samtani (20:37) And when you see these things, when you see a Jason Post, for example, pop up in the traveling HFC and then you see the California pretty interesting career. I think someone we should look at a little bit more closely down the road. Will Krasne (20:47) What does John Toll say in Margin Call? Be first, Mara. speaker-2 (20:51) Is Will Krasne (20:54) Jason Fose to his credit, he's been first. Hiten Samtani (21:04) Aaron Crowitz from Bravo Capital, welcome back to the promo. speaker-3 (21:07) Hi Hitan, good to be here. Hiten Samtani (21:08) The SNF space, which as you know is one of our fascinations, has long been a black hole of data and intelligence when you look to put money to work in these markets. What do you look for as a lender? speaker-3 (21:19) It really starts and ends with the operator. We wanna make sure that the operator is somebody who has extensive track record in the state because every state is like its own universe within skilled nursing. And somebody who is successful with six facilities in Minnesota might not be successful with their first facility in Florida. We also wanna really make sure they have a staffing plan. Staffing costs are a huge variable item. And then there's an opco. and a prop co structure for skilled nursing and for our lending it's been important to make sure that they're the same and that the ownership has a stake in the opco because we've seen some deadlocks where incentives aren't aligned and it could get very messy very fast. Hiten Samtani (22:05) Aaron Crowitz from Bravo Capital, thanks for being with the promote. JP Conklin, welcome back to the promote. There's almost a running gag on the show now where Will can recite the Lone Boss tagline for memory, but the product itself has changed quite dramatically in the last year or so. You've started to incorporate AI in some pretty surprising ways. speaker-2 (22:29) I am an AI fanboy and have been from day one. We have just successfully launched all of our AI capabilities. No longer will a vendor and a customer have a discussion around here are the features that you want us to build, let's talk about how we're gonna build them. Instead, it is just simply we are structured data with real estate expertise and the rules and governance that go around that. And then you just plug in your imagination and you can make your data do whatever you want. We were able to ask Lone Boss AI various questions about covenant testing or stress scenarios, create a map of all of my deals. And I wanted bubbles to look a certain way. And then we would pivot to can we do a mortgage statement reconciliation? And it could do all that stuff because we've got this good old-fashioned software company that is being paired with really powerful AI. And then it's just, what do you guys want to do with your data? And they're off to the races. Hiten Samtani (23:23) JP Conklin from Penceford and Lone Boss, thank you so much for being with the promote. Our next deep dive is coming up. The Reichmann trilogy is past us, and we've got to think about our next moonshot. Will Krasne (23:35) So every ten episodes we do try to do a special deep dive. We had a couple of ideas ourselves, but we want to open it up. So again, these are all for me, so don't blame a ten if you don't like them. Hiten Samtani (23:45) First one's me, what are you talking about? Well, the second one's me. Go ahead. Will Krasne (23:48) Okay. Yeah, post properties, John Williams. the second was Whitehall Funds and the Diaspora. Yeah. So that's that's a ten. And then another one was the Debartolo family all over the place. We got scions of the Debartolo family getting arrested for a solicitation outside of Ohio truck trailer parks. Hiten Samtani (24:06) That's correct. Didn't Ed make a run at the the thing in Bobby Campo's Empire? Didn't he make a big run at that? He did, of course. So we'll get into some of those. Write us at podcast at the promo dot com with your nominations. Some big news in the agency lending space, which has been upended. Quite a bit of license trades and so much activity in that space. One of the longtime players has been in play for a few months and it looks like it might be coming home. Will Krasne (24:36) Yes, lument? Hiten Samtani (24:39) Lument. Will Krasne (24:42) Oryx is reportedly close to selling Lument's its agency multifamily lender back from whence it came. Yes. To the Hunt companies, which is owned, of course, by the the billionaire Hunt family out of Texas. Hiten Samtani (24:54) But not not that billionaire Hunt family, I guess. The other ones, the El Paso guys, coal dealer, ML Hunt. It's just the romantic. Will Krasne (25:03) Coal and Earl. Hiten Samtani (25:05) Super interesting because Lument, it was called Hunt Real Estate Capital in 2019. It was sold to Oryx, which is this big Japanese conglomerate. And their hope was to take another couple of companies they had. One was called Lancaster Pollard, and the other one was called Red Capital. And they said the goal here is to create a triple threat lender, which meant the Fanny, Freddie, HUD licenses, and become one of the dominant players in the space. Hasn't quite happened. It's been moribund. It's kind of hanging in there, but it's not really. A real force in the market. One of the promises that they had made was like, hey, as Lument, we're gonna be t able to tap into the balance sheet of our Japanese overlords. Yes. But according to some agency lending players I spoke with, the opposite happened. Any deal north of 50 million, you actually had to go to Japan to get its blessing. That's a no go. Will Krasne (25:55) What? Hiten Samtani (25:57) In the lending world, speed is everything, right? And if you have to go to Japan and deal with the bureaucracy there, yeah. Things weren't happening. Some of the originators basically just stopped making quotes north of fifty. Will Krasne (26:08) Our great sponsor, Bravo Capital, talks about how you want to shave even hours off your approvals if you can. And I'll tell you what, it does not do that when you have to go back to Japan. This is one of these businesses where you're selling money, you're selling a commodity product. Hiten Samtani (26:22) It's the relationship you have and who you think can get the deal done fastest. Someone in this world had said in CRE finance, loyalty lasts about twenty bips. Yeah. Will Krasne (26:32) And if you are making it harder for people, not even necessarily on the quotes, but the just in process, people are gonna go elsewhere. Your originators are gonna go where they can move fast and put loans out the door. In the FT, it'll say like KKR deal makers or looking at like you know who the real deal makers are. It's these originators because they are just making it happen and getting those things done. And if they have a limiting factor in there, they're like the sin cake eater, you know, where they Are the ones dealing with the agency and the crazy request and then they're like, Come on, that's nonsense. Like, we're not gonna go ask this guy for that. And they eat that on your behalf. If there is something in there that stops them from being able to eat all the sins, their usefulness kind of goes away. And so that's why they're tenth in the league tables, you know, instead of being up higher where you were, I guess, oryx had hoped they would be. Hiten Samtani (27:24) Reminder, this is an in process. These are talks. We'll see where it goes. But if it goes back to Hunt, Hunt's such a fascinating conglomerate. They've got interests in many different parts of the real estate game. They've got military housing. I believe they're a massive partner of the DOD, have nearly 60,000 units. They've got built to rent. They've got asset management, development. Also be part of a a trend where we've seen a lot of these bigger families take another stab at at CRE lending. your guys. Will Krasne (27:53) The Morgan family, their family office, I think with Bayview, bought BWE recently. Hiten Samtani (27:57) their family office called Spring Summer Spring Mont. Will Krasne (27:59) Springmont. Springmont. That's right. Fifth Third Bank. Bought the Home Street, Fanny License, Benefit Street, R I P to Michael Comparado. bought New Point as we talked about. I know he's still posting. Hiten Samtani (28:10) I'm alive. He's alive and well. He's posting on LinkedIn. Yeah. Will Krasne (28:14) And then Zion's bank bought Hiten Samtani (28:16) Zion's friend of the pod, Tanner Webster. I I saw him last week and he's like, I have a bone to pick with you guys. It's not Zion's, it's Zion's. He's like, Every time a Utah guy hears our pod, he gets pissed at both of us. So there you go. Zions. Zions. This is such a lucrative trade that Fanny, God bless him, tried to get in on the action. They wanted to wet their beak. They wanted to take a cut of each license sale. I don't know where that's gone, but that was definitely the case for. Will Krasne (28:44) I mean, that's like isn't that like our freedom dividend from tariffs? So we've seen a lot of this and in part of the reason again is like you really want these servicing books. That's fee income over the long term and you're not really taking any credit risk because all that's getting sold off. Hiten Samtani (29:00) In this case, Lumen has a nearly fifty seven billion dollar loan servicing portfolio. That's the closest thing to mailbox money you can find in this space. Will Krasne (29:08) Yeah, and you're seeing owners try to buy these things like Hunt and Morgan, because one, they get their own debt origination platform, deal flow and market data. And that's really like an edge, you know, in sourcing, refinancing, because they have the actual property level data. I'm not gonna like name names here, but someone who's a competitor to someone else who may or may not have put out a lot of like, you know, K piece loans. He shows up on a property tour and his friend who works at said competitor is the guy doing the inspection on the Kid V slows. He's like, What are you doing here? This is my property. Get off here. Hiten Samtani (29:46) That's it for the promote podcast this week. California's welfare tax exemption is giving heavy traveling HFC vibes, and many of the same players are in the mix. And Lument, Lument, not Lument, Lument's possible return home has originators dreaming of a new era. Will Krasne (30:03) So Oryx is lamenting lament. Hiten Samtani (30:06) Mm-hmm. Will Krasne (30:07) Shout out to our wonderful sponsors, including our new one, the Harvard AMDP program. Hiten Samtani (30:12) It is for mid to senior executives. We'll drop the link in the show notes. And Bravo Capital, a leading HUD and bridge lender. We're doing a webinar actually today. It's going to be dropping at 2 p.m. October 14th. The promote.com slash HUD webinar to sign up. Will Krasne (30:26) And shout out to Loan Boss AI, your mission control center for all of your CR. Hiten Samtani (30:31) debt you can find them at loanboss.com and also H equities. You can find them at hequities.com Will Krasne (30:38) November fifth, it's coming. The missus is like planning my outfit being like you cannot look like a hobo as you do normally. Hiten Samtani (30:47) I was gonna ask you if you've picked your thing yet. Will Krasne (30:49) It's gonna be a black v neck in dance but it's gonna be a new black v-neck. Hiten Samtani (30:54) I might have you put on a button down. I'm very, very excited, A to see you and B to do this in front of an audience. I think it's time. Will Krasne (31:01) Yes, it is. We gotta take the next step and take this show on the road and by on the road, I mean incredibly close to where I live. Hiten Samtani (31:11) I'll see you next week, man. Thank you. See ya. Ciao.