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The Gulag of the Family Courts – with Sam Nass · UK Column Radio

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to UK column viewers and listeners wherever
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: you are in the world. Today, I've got a lady
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: back with me, Sam Nas. Sam I've interviewed twice on
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: the subject of child stealing by the State. That's the
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: British state we're talking about. Sam's come back to tell
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: me more about what's been happening to her and how
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: she's still continuing the fight to get her two children returned. Now,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I'm going to say straight off that if people haven't
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: seen the earlier two interviews that I did with Sam,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: i'd encourage people to go and have a look at those.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: We'll just bring them up on screen. So this is
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: the first one traffic child Stealing by the State Part one,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: and then the second one was it looks like this
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: if we just sorry move it on, there we go
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: is traffic Charles stealing by the State pot too. So
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: I'll encourage the audience to go and watch those two
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: parts because we give the full background of how Sam
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: was her self trafficked, came to the UK, was brought
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: to the UK, eventually was supposedly given sanctuary in this country,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: but then as she tried to build her life here,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: although she was able to get her daughter back with her.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: That daughter and later her son was to be taken
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: by the state, and so we're going to catch up
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: now with what's really been happening with her. So Sam,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: welcome to UK Column. It's lovely to have you back
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: with us.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Lovely to see you, Lovely to be here again. Thank
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: you so much to the UK Column viewers and listeners,
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: and for all the supports and their amazing comments, the
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: good energy and all the prayers and all the support
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: from all over the well, thank you.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you for saying that. Sam. It's always very
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: nice to get some positive feedback. And I know that
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: many people were very stunned and a lot of them
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: were quite emotional when they heard the interview that we
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: did together. Of course, I'm going to say that you
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: are one of thousands of mums, thousands of parents that
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: have had their children taken by the state here in
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: the UK. And if we're going to stop what's happening
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: child stealing by the state itself, we've got to get
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: the lid off what's happening, and we've got to tell
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: the story about what's happening. Let me just ask you,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: what can you actually tell us about your children and
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: the court hearings that you've been through.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Thank you brain for the question. I'm not allowed to
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: speak about my children. I'm not allowed to talk about
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: the details about the case or anything in much detail.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: But obviously I can talk about the procedures, and I
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: can talk about public information and all those things. Yes,
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: it is Yeah, I'm not allowed to speak about the
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: details of the children, right.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: So this is a really important point for people who
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: may be new to the subject of how authorities, the
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: state itself steals children. But of course everything to do
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: with those cases around the children for you and other
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: parents is conducted in the family law court, the family
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: law division in front of a judge. There is no jury,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: and essentially the proceedings are secret. They don't like it
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: if you use that term, because they say, oh, no, no,
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: this is wrong. It's not secret, but it is secret
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: because you're not allowed to talk about it. There is
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: no jury, and even if press are involved, the press
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: are highly restricted in what they can and cannot say
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: about the court case. And of course this secretive system
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: is sold to the public as being necessary in order
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: to protect the rights of the children themselves. So the
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: rights of the children the parents which the state abuses
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: it of course claims that it needs to do everything
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: in secret in order to protect the children. I'll just
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: ask you to comment on that, because you know exactly
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: what I'm talking about there.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: I don't think it is really right to say that
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: they're protecting the identities of the children when in fact
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: they advertise children to different magazines when they are trying
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: to find adoption agencies. Personally, I call them buyers. So
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: in that way, you cannot say that you're truly protecting
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: them identities of the children. But also it's kind of
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: revised psychology to tell us that you're protecting the identities
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: of children from who and from what. I'm very positive
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: that most of the British population in Great Britain, people
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: are not motivated. They don't wake up every single morning
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: to look for my children to have or hum them.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: That is not in a civilized state where I live.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: So I don't want to create an illusion for people
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: to come and tell me they're protecting my children from
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: who from what? Not. Ninety nine point nine percent of
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: the British population they love children, they care for children,
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: So why would I protect my children from people? Who
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: never had to harm them. I'm not gullible. I know
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: there are some people who do terrible things to children,
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: but it's very rare, not in the society in Britain,
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: it's very very rare.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: It's rare amongst the bulk and the population. You're absolutely right,
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: and this is a very very good point that you
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: are not allowed to speak about your children or give
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: details about your children. You're not, in many cases, supposed
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: to be sharing photographs or videos of the children, and
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: yet the authorities, once they've taken the children, use images
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: of those children, as you say, in order to seek
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: adoptive parents. And something which we'll say very early on is,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: of course, the moment these adoption procedures start, ultimately money
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: is involved. So local authorities are looking to get adopters
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: for your children, but money will change hands. Is that correct?
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: Well, that is very very correct, and that is the
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: point where we are at at the moment. I don't
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: know whether I'm permitted to speak about the local authorities
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: involved in my particular case. I think I am, because
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: they're public bodies and they're not children, and they're accountable
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: to taxpayers. So the local authorities that removed unlawfully removed.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: My children are Chescha Western Chescha Council and Southold City
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: Council at the moment where we have read. When I
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: say we, I mean my family and the community and
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: the people who are supporting me on this case and
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: this journey. We have written respectfully to Cheschia Western Chescha
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Council requesting them to confirm whether there is a conflict
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: of interest between the director of Children's Services and the
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: adoption agency. The answer is simple, it's a yes or
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: a no, so that we know whether the decision maker
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: was independent, impartial and they were not influenced by any
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: financial interests. And all employers or servant public servants who
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: are working for local authority, they're obliged to tell and
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: known to have any conflict of interest with third parties
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: like those. But we suspect there is a financial conflict
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: of interest between directors of children's Services and they are
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: not all of them, and adoption agencies and those sometimes
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: they influence the decisions they make to place children.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's a very good point, Sam, and will come more.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: We'll get into this a little bit more in a moment,
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: but before we do that, you've been fighting very very
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: hard for your children, and of course ultimately what you
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: want is your children back. How long is it since
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: you've seen them?
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: I lost se my children in twenty eighteen at a
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: contact center. My daughter was crying, very upset because they
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: had started the mind manipulation on her that they were
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: finding her better mommy, good mommy. And she was asking
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: them why why you can't tirely with my brother and
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: why can't tirely with my mom? And they couldn't say.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: I saw them in twenty eighteen in somewhere in Greater
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: Manchester in a contact center. For those who don't know
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: what a contact center looks like, it's kind of an
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: institution really where they keep children and they allow them
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: to see their parents for a very limited limited time,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: and there will be someone in the corner with the
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: clipboard writing every single negative thing that you could ever imagine,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: in most cases to robust the application or the process
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: of removing that child. So they might say the mother
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: is not smiling, she's not a good parent, and then
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: they would conclude the mother is not emotionally attuned to
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: the children. Things like that. They are very it's very fabricated,
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: it's very malicious. How they create this evidence, but it's
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: all admissible because nobody can challenge challenges it because it's here, say,
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: and its admissa wine family proceedings.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: So I know from conversations with other mothers how cruel
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: they think the contact centers are. And in some particular
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: cases there's been some very unpleasant restrictions on both mums
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: and dads that they're not allowed to cuddle the children,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: they're not allowed to tell them that they love them.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: And for many parents they actually said that that the
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: whole process of going in you wanted to see your children,
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: but then when you were with your children, you felt
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: that you were a goldfish in a sorry, a goldfish
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: in a bowl being watched by other people. They found
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: this so deeply unpleasant that when they got home at
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: the end of the whatever one hour visit or two
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: hour visit, they felt just emotionally devastated.
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  Speaker 2: Well, the whole process is not a natural environment. So
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: the fact that it's not a natural environment is an institution.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: The behaviors of a human being in a natural environment
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: are completely different from the behaviors of any human in
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: a natural environment. So when you put people in a school,
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: they behave differently from when they're in a let's say,
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: a garden or a park. That's a natural psychology, So
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: I don't really know whether they are looking out for
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: the best interests of the children, because putting children in
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: such institutions when they're just coming from an institution, for example,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: in my children's case, a school, so my daughter was
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: coming from school, then this contact center which looks like
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: a school or a small juvenile prison, and then back
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: to the first are placement. The whole process is re
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: traumatizing for children and it's also traumatizing for parents. But
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: when we speak about it, those who are concerned really
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: don't take any notice. They don't they don't care, they
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: don't care about children's interests, as say, they're more motivated
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: about how much they're going to make on everyplacement. And yes,
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: the parents who are reporting that the process is traumatizing,
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: it is very traumatizing, it's very disturbing, and it's very
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: terrible for children because every single time they take the
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: child back to the first placement is also trauma in
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: itself because the child is now wondering every single time,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: why am I going back to this strange stranger and
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: why can't tally with my parents, and they are never
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: told the truth. That's the that's the problem. They're never
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: told the children are never told the truth. Show some
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: of these showcial workers.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: How often do you think about your children.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: Every day, every waking minute, every every waking minute, every second. Yes,
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: and some we prep them every day.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Of course, some people we know will view videos like
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: this and they say, well, hang on a minute, this
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: mum must have done something. Did you ever do anything
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: to your children?
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: Not at all, not at all. I I've never done
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: anything to my children. I've never heard or harm my children.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: I love them so much.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Sam, let's have a little look at what you've
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: been trying to do. You've been challenging through the courts,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: but we're going to get on to that. But you've
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: also been challenging in a bit more of an outspoken way,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: and I'm really pleased to see that. When you've been
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: doing that, you've had some friends around you. So we
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: just bring a couple of pictures on screen, which I
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: took from some of the information you've given me. So
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: this is one of your friends that was having a protest.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: I've redacted the children's names here. We had to redact
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: the names on this image, on the back of the
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: T shirt and on the ground because as a media
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: organization we are not allowed to name the children. This
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: is the secret nature of the so called child protection
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: system in UK. The state gets hold of the children
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: and then they disappear behind a wall of secrecy. So
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: you have friends who've been helping you, which is wonderful,
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: and you've been protesting with banners and you sent me
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: this patrere here in the sunshine of n child abuse
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: now but again we've taken the children's names out and
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: this one was very nice because basically here you are
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: with the full team and some drumming and the banners
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: as well. Where were you when this was happening.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: We were in front of number ten Downing Street, Sakias
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Thomas residence. Right, I must I must say that Sakias
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Tama is our member of parliament in Holborn, London.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Right, we'll come on to him in a minute. We've
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: got another picture here of you protesting outside the Cabinet office.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: What sort of and ultimately you've got arrested and we're
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: going to show that in a video clip in just
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: a minute. But what sort of reaction did you get
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: when you were making these protests.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I got a lot of resons and from the
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Cabinet Office because I was at Whitehall. They didn't they
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: didn't like it, but I had my megaphone and I'm
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: just I went to the Cabinet Office because they make
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: the policies, they make their regulations. Sometimes they oversee local authorities.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: So I wanted to really put a message to them
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: that this is the things that you make in your offices,
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: this is how they affect the grassroots people, the local people,
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: and I don't think they've ever had a parent at
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: their doorstep before. So I needed to bring the message
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: to them to maybe to have some change. I was arrested.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: I was told several times by the security officers to
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: stop my megaphone. I was told several times to go home.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: A lot of disruptors they came. They try all sorts
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: of things, They try all sorts of psychological manipulation, so
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: you can stop. They try also some Then they called
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: the police to come and arrest me. I was manhandled
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: such from yeah, for protesting, really for protesting. I was
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: manhanded and then thrown in the van Charings station.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: We just look at this little video clip which is
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: outside the law courts. Now I've heavily censored it because
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: you had a big banner up with the children's names
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: on it, but I thought I'd just play it because
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: here you are outside of what's supposed to be is
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: the bastion of justice, righteousness and justice, which cause the
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: UK cells to the world that we have this wonderful
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: system of of justice and people can seek justice and
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: they can obtain justice. But time after time and year
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: after year, where child protection issues are concerned, the courts
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: absolutely don't work. And we're going to be discussing that.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: But let's just have a look at the little clip
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: which just shows that you have been there outside the courts. Sam.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: You can always tell the legal people as they walk
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: in and out by the pinstriped suits and the high
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: heels and very tight short skirts and little jackets that
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: the ladies wear. Do any of the legal officials ever
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: speak to you if you're there in a protest outside.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: No, I know to all. None of them speaks to me.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: They see they try to avoid us, try to avoid me,
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: try to avoid my friends. When we raise the issue
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: of child protection, they will either say we can't, we
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: don't have capacity to represent you or this is not
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: a case that we can handle or deal with. No,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: they will not speak to you. They will avoid. They don't, Yeah,
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: they will avoid. They don't want to. Maddie the Waters,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: I think we're their friends.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't want to get involved. Now you, you
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: have done a lot of protesting and you've been quite vocal,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: which is totally understandable. So in this film clip we
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: see what happened when you protested outside White All.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: Where is that? You don't touch me? Please, do not
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: touch me. Do not touch me. Don't touch me. Don't
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: touch me.
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: Don't touch me.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: I haven't done anything. Do not touch me, do.
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: Not touch me.
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: Do don't touch me.
• 20:25
  Speaker 5: I haven't done anything. No, I haven't done anything.
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: I haven't done anything.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Don't touch me. No, I haven't done anything.
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: I have loved me, love me, I have you my
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: you bress. I haven't No, I haven't done anything.
• 20:54
  Speaker 5: I haven't done anything.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Washing my hands, don't time.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: And I kind of braid ladies and gentleman. They arresting
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: me for peacefully protesting after they thouted.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: My children's done at.
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: My breast, so at my breath. I don't touch my way.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: Why are you squazing me. Stop squezing me.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Why are you squeezing me?
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: Why are you squazing me?
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: My children were stolen myself at City Council. When I
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: survived Himan trafficking, I.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Challenged the cards. Now they're trying to cover up their views.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: My my son was cut out of my stomach.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: My Jusia person, you're trying.
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: To cover up the information to me after I survived
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: human trafficking.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: Sakia Stam is legally trink.
• 21:46
  Speaker 6: He knows this is a human right for me to
• 21:49
  Speaker 6: prove peacefully protest.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: I didn't cause any harm to nobody, the police officers.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: I tried to keep me quiet.
• 21:56
  Speaker 6: Why are you taking my headphones? Why you're arresting me?
• 22:03
  Speaker 6: Why you arrested me? Why are you arresting me? I
• 22:06
  Speaker 6: need to know a crime. Why you're arresting me. Why
• 22:11
  Speaker 6: you are arresting me. I don't know why you're arresting me.
• 22:14
  Speaker 6: Why you're arresting me.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: You're not saying the reason for a rest.
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: I don't know the primal why why you're arresting.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Well, I think we can s.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Well, Sam, there we are. I'm going to say a
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: big thank you to the people that actually recorded that incident.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: The second thing I'm going to say is when I
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: see that it takes three burly police officers and a
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: policewoman to arrest you, I wonder what the police would
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: have said back in the nineteen sixties and seventies that
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: it took so many people to arrest one woman and
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: you're not that big, but it was six altogether. So
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: I think the police should be utterly ashamed of themselves.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: What do you think now looking back at that clip
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: of your arrest?
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: It does not represent the values of read Britain. It
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: does not represent the law, It does not represent a
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: professional code of conduct for the police. It does not
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: represent what the public thinks about this country. It does
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: not Why would you silence me? I was at a
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: public property. White Hall is not someone's home, it's a
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: public property. I have every single go right to protest.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: It is despicable that this black man was pulling me
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: all the time and pushing me and man handling me
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: because I think he thought, being a black man, he's
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: entitled to do the things he was doing to me,
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: which is absolutely despicable, because nobody will hold him to account.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: He's a black man, so he's allowed to do things
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: he wants to another black woman.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: I think, Sam, this is interesting because a little bit
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: in a few minutes time, we're going to be discussing
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: another aspect of blackness and how that's been used against you.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: But we've come on to that. You were arrested, you're
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: taken back to a police station. How long did they
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: actually hold you?
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: They kept me there for two I think two hours
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: and forty five minutes in a place one. He wouldn't
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: let me to use the bathroom. His name is Tanya Metaly.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: He wouldn't let me to use the toilet, and I
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: kept asking him, but what is the crime I have done?
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: And he wouldn't really spell it out, So he kept
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: asking me for my name, for my details and my address.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: For those who know about protesting and the laws, you're
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: not obliged to give your names or your personal details
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: in those circumstances unless you really have committed a crime.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: But in those circumstances, and I'm so grateful that people
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: recorded the whole clip, I didn't do anything to them.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: I didn't Yeah, I didn't do anything against the law.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: So they kept me at Charing Cross station for over
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: two hours and a half or forty five minutes interrogetting.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Me Sam and I believe that at one stage they
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: were threatening to strip search.
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: Is that right?
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, they were threatening. One of the sageants was threatening
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: that he's going to strip me and they're going to
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: run a DNA test on me if I don't give
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: their names, and I say, that's blackmail. But I'm not
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: giving you anything because I'm not obliged to give you
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: any information.
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Are you talking a male sergeant here or was it
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: a female sergeant telling you this?
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: He's a male sergeant one of them. Actually he's in
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: the video.
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: There, right.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: So this is UK Police in twenty twenty four and.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Basically Sharing Cross Station, Charing.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Cross Police Station and the police using a threat of
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: what's really sexual assault. That's how you would regard it
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: in order to So this is more intimidation. And of
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: course you found yourself in this situation not in the
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: first instance because you've been shouting at other locations. What
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: you've been doing for quite a considerable time is trying
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: very quietly, in a measured, reasonable way, to fight for
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: justice and to get your children back through the courts.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: So this is something else around viewers and listeners as
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: far as this interview is concerned. Of course, why did
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: Sam end up in the position she was with a
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: protest outside of Whitehall. It was because that she can't
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: get justice through any of the other machinery at the
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: British State. So let's focus on the courts themselves. Your
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: children have been taken from you. They were put up
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: for adoption. They have been adopted significantly, even though brother
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: and sister, they haven't been kept together. That's another favorite
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: little trick of the so called child protection system. But
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: since they were taken you've been fighting to try and
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: get them back. You actually been doing as far as
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: using and challenging the court system.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: Oh, before I got to just to recap with the viewers,
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: before I took the steps of protesting publicly or even
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: speaking out publicly, I have been in the court system
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: for over seven years now and we didn't get anywhere.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: We instructed some of the top barristers in London. We
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: instructed at the time missus Casey, she was quite QC then,
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: but now she's King's Council. We instructed miss King's Council.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: We instructed mister sorry, missus Casey, King's Council. We instructed
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: several barristers from different different chambers, several We instructed a
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: lot of big farms and all this is our on
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: family money and my ex partner's money. We spent everything
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: we had, brand everything we ever had, to save our
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: children from what is unknown to our culture.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: What what were these legal teams? What were these barristers
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: able to achieve?
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: For you, to put it simply, nothing nothing, And it
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: breaks my heart to say so, but absolutely nothing. Do
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: not even contact with my children? Nothing?
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Right, So we if we try and just get into
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: a little bit of the detail that we're allowed to
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: get into. You were trying to get your children back.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: What was the legal case that you were making to
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: justify that your children were returned?
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: Well, their legal case is very simple. Once the local
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: authority takes their children, the burden of proof does not
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: lie the parent. The burden of proof to prove in
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: the course of law with evidence lies on the local
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: authority who is alleging the harm. So in my case,
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: they tried every single trick in the book to see that.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: I don't ask the questions regarding the threshold criteria that
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: justifies the remover of children. In the initial hearing, I
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: had just I didn't have mental capacity because I had
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: just finished a serious caesarean section that was first. I
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: was severe hemorrhaging from this sea section. I couldn't go
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: back to the hospital because I had been re traumatized
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: by the whole process. The judge then was she demanded
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: I have to be in caught immediately to defend myself,
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: defend my child who had just been removed from the
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: hospital at Bath while a mother is bleeding from sea section.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: You are then told to go to court in Manchester
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: from Chester to represent yourself legally. The whole process is
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: wrong because the parent has no mental capacity in those circumstances,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: you have just finished the cesarean section. The whole thing
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: is inhumane, so I was trying to I instructed my
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: barristers and solicters to put the case forward simply, there
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: is no mental capacity. It's against my legal rights that
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: you're taking the child without any verifiable evidence. Initially I
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: said that he essay is acceptable. You can gossip with
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: your neighbor and some of these social workers will come
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: and take your child. But when it comes to the law,
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: the law is very clear. When local authorities are challenged,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: they have to provide verifiable evidence that justifies the threshold
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: criteria or removing the children. In my case, they have
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: never provided a single shred of evidence, not one where
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: they can confirm that the mother actually caused this actual
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: harm or this significant harm, or she did this, or
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: she stabbed the children, or she beat the children, or
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: she did anything to the children, none of that. The
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: only predicament term in is because I initially voluntarily contacted
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: social services for support when I was just completing the
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: retraumatizing process of being a victim of human trafficking. And
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: there is a witness for that because I contacted the
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Princess Trust where I was under their program at the time.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: I was a young person under the Princess Trust program
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: in Manchester. We were doing the entrepreneurship program in my
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: early twenties. A lady from the Princess Trust, Honey, she said,
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: the only people we can contact in these circumstances to
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: give extra support are social services. So she did the
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: referral of volunteer because we wanted extra support from my
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: as we prepared for my daughter to come over to
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: Great Britain.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, okay, so the barristers, the barristers are supposedly
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: fighting for you, So what do they do do they
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: do they actually challenge the local authority and the evidence
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: that they supposedly had or did not to take your children.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: In my case, it was very bizarre and very odd
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: because every time I came with a barrister to court,
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: the local authority Souford City Council did not turn up,
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: Chiesia Western Chesa Council did not come to court, they
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: didn't turn up to court. And obviously we had to
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: pay for the King's Council or the Queen's Council then
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: to be present from London to Manchester privately. But in
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: so many cases I have had, sadly some lawyers actually
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: persuade parents to agree with the local authorities application, either
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: indirectly or directly, and it's really it's heart ranging to
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: see that level of misrepresentation going on among some of
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: the some of these lawyers doing these things. I was
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: too also at some point. Obviously they do psychological manipulation
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: because they're speaking to the other side, they're speaking to
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: social workers and to try and get you off the
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: legal pursuit. They will try they will go through your
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: lawyer to try and convince you that your case is terrible,
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: there is nothing you can do, there is nothing you
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: can do. Just go home. Probably if yeah, you can
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: do the worst, but just go home. So that's what
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: most of the lawyers do. They participate, some of them,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: sorry to say most, but some some of them participate
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: in this horror, in this whole misrepresentation, and agreeing with
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: some of the social workers to do what they are doing.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: And of course, the longer the case goes on, the
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: more money they make. So for the legal teams it's
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: better if there isn't a resolution because they can continue
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: to accumulate their pretty hefty fees.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, oh yes, the longer goes on, the more
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: each email. Some of them charge one hundred and ten
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: pounds I think to respond, plus that each phone call
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: is I think seventy to eighty pounds plus what for
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: some I remember paying the most shocking payment we've ever made,
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: and I look back now and I think, wow, I
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: was really, really gullible and very naive. I remember paying
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: one of the barristers. I was so desperate. I think
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: every parent who'll understand, I remember paying twelve pounds to
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: one of the barristers. I want name in London, and
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: she didn't even want to write the advice that she
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: had given me. She didn't want to say anything. We
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: have the receipts. She didn't want to write anything until
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: one of my professors from the university I was attending
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: went back to her and requested her, can you please
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: write pen and paper what you advised Sam in this case?
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: And that's when she did, Yeah, but I will charge
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: a lot.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Sorry, they would charge a lot. Absolutely. Now the other
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: thing is, let's pin down a little bit the types
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: of courts that you were using. So your children have
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: been taken use start to fight through the courts. Are
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: you fighting through the family courts or are you fighting
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: through the wider court system.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: I'm fighting through both the family court and the wider court.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: So my guess coming here as a victim of human trafficking,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: the local authorities have a duty of care to victims
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: of human trafficking who have been certified by the Home Office.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: So in the wider courts, the Administrative Court in London.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: I have submitted my application several times for judicial review.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: This court is traditionally known for assessing the lawfulness of
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: the decisions made by public bodies. I've written to them.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: I've hated the court fees the claim. The claim is
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: with them, and they rejected. They keep rejecting. I keep
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: taking it back to them and saying, you have the
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: jurisdiction you have have you have to treat us with
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: some sort of fairness this case, this is the right
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: court to submit this application, and they keep trying to
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: push it away. For me as a parent, I think
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: it's part of the cover up, unfortunately, not to really
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: go into investigating what really happened.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Sam. I hear from other mothers, other families that they
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: consider from their own experience. I know this is heresay,
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: but I'm going to bring it to you for your comments.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Is that they say it's as if the court system
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: simply works as a cabal, first of all to extract
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: money for everybody concerned, but also to silence anybody challenging
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: this child. I'm going to call it the child's stealing system.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: So the courts are actually complicit in keeping a lid
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: on everything so that local authorities can take the children.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: This is what other parents tell me. Would you agree
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: with that? Is that how you perceive it?
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: I think to some extent I would agree with that completely,
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: especially not for other divisions, but for their family division
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: in particular, because what is happening in the family division, unfortunately,
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: one could easily say that part of it is not law,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: part of it is just like having a child or preferences.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: Because if someone is saying you're taking someone's children and
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: you're not cross examining the evidence that is before you,
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: then you're enabling the child stealing process. That is what's
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: happened in my case right now. Most parents, in fact,
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: will agree that the reports that have been written about
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: them have never been challenged, either by their lawyers or
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: by the judge or by anybody else. They're in the
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: big massive bundle. But if you told some of these
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: social workers if there were significant harm, it fits on
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: an for paper simply if there is verifiable evidence, Brian,
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: the truth doesn't need a lot of explanation and expansions.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: It just fits nicely on an for paper. As a summary.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: You don't have to write a trillion documents unless you're
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: adding medical evidence, let's say from a pedetrician saying on
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: such and such a date the child was found in
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: such a state. But other than that, all the evidence
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: that meets the criteria really could fit on an ef force.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: So what they do, it's all part of the psychological
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: manipulation and psychological abuse to parents or both parents. They
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: will focus and I did the same as well, will
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: focus on a whole heap of irrelevant rubbish that is
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: not even needed and forget to ask, but where is
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: the actual evidence? And in all fairness, you're supposed to
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: ask them to spare it out, to say it, and
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: or even ask the judge, Judge, I don't understand the
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: case clearly. Can you please explain to me the actual
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: evidence that verifies the removal of my children? Following looking
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: at the threshold criteria of children of the Children's Act
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: and the Adoptions Act and in most cases they have
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: nothing unfortunately.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: Right and again describing the court. When you're in court,
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: you are simply in front of a single judge. There
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: is no jury.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: Yes, you're in front of a single judge. This is
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: public information, so I can speak about this part of
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: my case. My case is very shocking in a way
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: that they I've never had, We've never had a fair
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: minded judge to assess the whole case. So in the
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: process of investigating, as a community and a family, any
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: parent would investigate if she snatched their children away. They
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: will invest gate. They will go beyond the papers and
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: the things that you provided to them to really dig
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: to the bottom level what has happened. And we found
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: that the judge is the patron for what is really
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: shocking is the so called independent psychologist and she's the
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: treasurer bey in mind, the judge is the patron, and
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: the previous judge is the chair, and the guests a
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: frequent guest speaker. The first time we got this information
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: or I landed about this information, I was frozen and
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: shocked the level of acting when you're in front of this.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: The judge, the acted like they didn't know about that,
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: they've never met her, that she's just this independent expert witness,
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: they've never met before. But she's the treasurer for their.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: So and for people who may not know. What is
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: the significance of that it self? Oh my god, what
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: does that claim to do or what do you think
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: it actually does?
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: The claims that they teach, they they do programs, training programs,
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: legal programs for social workers and all these other people.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: But for me personally, I think there is something sinister
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: going on, and I wouldn't say anything more than that
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: on a public public domain. But I think someone has
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: to investigate in all fairness because their social workers, part
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: of their ex part witness is part of this. They
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: are lawyers and barrister as part of this, and then
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: they tell the parents unfortunately that there is no conflict
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: of interest. How How is there no conflict of interest
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: when your treasurer is the expert witness on the same
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: case you're presiding on. I've requested respectfully to recuse herself
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: and all all the evidence and and input for and
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: her owner to be disqualified on the basis that everything
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: there is no impartiality. There is apparent base, but we've
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: formed a lot of obstruction from the whole process, which
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: is still for me, the process of perverting the course
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: of justice and covering up the obvious.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: So you you're a very intelligent and you've also taught yourself.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Well you're smiling, but I know this is correct. I've
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: met you several times that we've had some really amazing conversations.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: But you've had to teach yourself a lot about the
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: legal system. So when you're making these comments, you have
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: an advantage now that you're not I don't mean this
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: in a disrespectful way. You're not a simple mum who's
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: got no experience of the court system. You've now been
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: fighting this battle for so long that you've built up
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: a lot of knowledge not only about the law, but
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: the way the system. The system works, So your judgments
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: and your reflections on the system and its defects. I
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: think on that basis hold weight. It's not as if
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: you're an uninformed or ill informed person trying to challenge
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: the system. What do you what's the worst thing that
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: you've We're looking at this case. There isn't a jury
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: to judge you, so you're not being judged as a
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: parent by a jury of your peers. You're simply being
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: judged by a single judge. And in many cases those
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: judges can hold the case to themselves so that you
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: can't even sit in front of a different judge. You
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: have been able to sit in front of some different judges.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Do you look at them and think some of them
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: have tried to help? Or do you think no, they're
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: all of the same mold.
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: No.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: I think some of them have tried to help, but
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: they find themselves in a very difficult position. But it
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: doesn't take away the aspect that the whole process is
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: illegal and unlawful, because you cannot presade over a case
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: where the evidence you're relying on is your treasurer, and
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: the previous judge is your chair, and the guests and
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: the frequent guest speaker, and the lawyer is also a
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: frequent guest speaker, And so I think it takes away
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: the independence of our judiciary in those aspects, it takes
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: away the fundamentals of the rule of law. Even if
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: someone is very compassionate, very loving, very kind, it strips
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: away the fundamentals of justice. And that's the problem. That's
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: the problem most parents face. And also over the years
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: now we have realized that there is a lot of
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: behind the scenes going on text messages, phone calls to
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: try and compromise the judges on what they should do
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: and what they shouldn't do, and in most cases it
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: comes from the local authorities.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: I'm afraid, right, and pressure to get you to back off.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: One of the things that you mentioned to me is
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: the subject that other black people have been used almost
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: to try and deflect. You tell me a little bit
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: more about that and what you're experiencing.
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, they use so they use black other black
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: people to try and talk you out of the pursuit
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: of justice. Either they will use lawyers who are black
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: and Afro Caribbeans, or they will try and mimic what
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: you know, what is familiar to you, and then they
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: find themselves in a very unusual position because I don't
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: really I find it difficult to conform to certain things.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: I don't really conform to certain things. I have a
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: mind of my own, and I think it's been difficult
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: for some people. For example, even the arrests that you
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: have just seen, they will send a black person to
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: arrest you and to brutalize you. So you don't say, oh,
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: it was racially aggreviated. No, that was unprofessional and it
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: was unlawful. Whether it was the individual was a white
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: person or a black person or an Asian person, the
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: whole thing is unlawful. So it shouldn't be done regardless
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: of someone's race. But I will also take you back
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: to the genesis of the whole case brand the woman
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: who removed my daughter in the first place from a
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: privately funded nursery that we were paying for in Soultho.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: This is one of the best nurseries in Greater Manchester.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: It's absolutely beautiful. It was a black woman from the Caribbeans.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: The reason she took my children, I don't know. I
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: don't know. Up to now, I still ask her. We
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: really looked at all the case notes she had written.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: Some of the things that she was writing about my daughter,
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: she was copying them and testing them from another person's
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: report to my daughter's reports. I have had now some
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: sort of semblance to report her to the regulatory body
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: to see if they can hold her accountable for what
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: she's done. Because whether the professional was I don't think
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: the council. The council's motive was to see that we
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: get hurt. But sometimes there is a lack of oversight
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: when it's a black professional dealing with a black family.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: Because of the new diversity and inclusivity, they don't really
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: sometimes not all the times, sometimes they don't really oversee
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: or reassess or really look at when a black professional
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: is dealing with a black family, there's no oversight. There
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: is no any sort of someone looking independently and objectively
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: to look at what they've Britain or what they're saying.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: That is what happened to me when the show show
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: Walker was laying down the law and going on I
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: call it a big, massive ego trip and the power
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: trip to show the bosses that she was doing something.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: And she used my history of being a victim of
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: human trafficking against me, which is in itself very sinister
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: and vile and very unprofessional.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: Sam, you've spoken to me several times about feeling fearful
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: as you've been involved in this battle against the local
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: authority and the state. What have you been experiencing that
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: you described as making you feel frightened.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: I feel frightened because Salford City Council has silent, has
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: tried to silence me. They sent several men to my
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: address to to push the first entry, in fact, to
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: put to try and threaten me with contempt of court.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: They've hired investigators to try and threaten me with contempt
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: of cuote that in fact I should pull down my interviews,
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: I should pull down my Twitter now X account. I
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: shouldn't speak about the case. But for contempt of court
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: applications to be to to how to carry anyway, someone
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: must be speaking something that is untrue, something that is false.
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: That is when you're in contempt of court. But for me,
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: I'm asking politely the local authority to point out one
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: part which part of my assastions is not true, which
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: part of my evidence is not true, And in those
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: regards they cannot really they can't really point out. But
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: what I've also noticed is that when they're threatening you,
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: they will threaten you with their local courte because it's
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: easier that way. You know, the behind the scenes will
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: go on and they will threaten you. So they're threatening
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: me with the with the local court, which is Manchester Court,
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: with a lot of paperwork from the from Manchester Court.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: But this case was formally transferred to London, to the
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: London Court, but still the law Souffolk City Council is
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: still violating that order and going behind the scenes to
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: threaten me with all these contempt of court. I have refused,
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: not because I disrespect what they're saying. I have so
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: much respect for our local authorities and our civil servants.
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: But I won't be silenced and intimidated to cover up
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: the child abuse that has gone on for years. It's
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: it's against the law, it's against our human rights, and
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: it's against everything that Great Britain stands for. So I
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: won't be silenced by a handful of people.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: One of the incidents that I'm going to say obviously
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: did make you fearful was the delivery of certain letters,
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: which when I was able to see part of it,
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: I was absolutely shocked. I'm going to bring this image
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: up on screen. It's not of the actual letter, but
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: this is the company that was sending a solitary mail
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: to get at your property. And if you look at
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: the images on screen, there's a fingerprint top left, so
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: you were receiving an a four sheet with a fingerprint
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: on it and then a pretty one short paragraph which
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: was difficult to understand what it said. The English was
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: very poor, and you initially interpreted that letter as being
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: a threat on you. You were very scared when you
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: spoke to me. And who would deliver a letter to
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: a single mum or perhaps even an older male which
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: has just got a fingerprint at the top. It was spooky,
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: it was unpleasant. And when I finally managed to find
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: out that this is part of a company's logo used
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: by a local authority to try and effectively intimidate you,
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: this is shocking.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: It is shocking. When I called out the company publicly,
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: they formed another company because what the local authority is
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: trying to cover up is that they used a forged
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: bath certificate to get an adoption, to get an adoption
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: order granted with a forged bath certificate, a photocopy handwritten
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: bath certificate. Now, for me, this this reminds me of
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: the story of King Solomon. I gave birth to my child.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: I want someone to tell me when my child's birth
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: was registered. The audacity from the social worker asking me,
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: can you give can you? Can you provide us the
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: original birth certificate? And I'm thinking to myself as a parent,
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: I should provide you the tools to abuse my child.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: I should provide you, I should provide you the tools
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: to actually see that my child is sold to an
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: unknown person. Southward City Council. At the time of place
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: in my child, they did not have a certified or
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: regional bath certificate. But obviously everything goes ahead in Manchester
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: because the you know, everything is behind the scenes and
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: no one vets nothing, and it's just a matter of
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: Robert stamping. We will silence her. That's the the whole
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: idea they've tried.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: I'll add to that that something else which many people
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: are not aware of is that within a local authority.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: Not even the elected members can ask questions of child
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: protection their own child protection services. They can't, They can't
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: ask to investigate cases, they can't look at documentation because
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: their own social services child protections team hider behind data
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: protection so that within the council, those officers, those employees
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: are protected from the oversight and scrutiny of the elected
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: members of that council, which I find truly shocking, because
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: it's a secret society operating within the council system itself.
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, and it's really heartbreaking because they will intimidate the
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: parent behind the scenes. They will say the worst things
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: to the parent because they're after your mind, they're after
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: your soul. I think when you say it's a secret society,
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: I believe that to be true, because people who are
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: normal would not do sinister things to children and evil
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: things to parents. To see that some parents have committed
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: ended their lives because of the whole process, which is
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: barbaric and inhumane. Chesia Western Chesha Council is I think
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: one of the worst at this because they are very
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: good at covering up They're very very good at covering
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: up child abuse, and it's evil what they've done, because
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: they went as far as going into my emails and
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: I can prove that. I can prove that one hundred percent.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: They tried to block my emails from sending out emails
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: because I was sending emails to Right Honorable Yvette Cooper,
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: I was sending emaos to the Home Office. I was
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: sending emaos to the Ministry of Justice, right Honorable Mahmud,
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: I was sending emaos to Right Honorable Sakis Dama to
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: tell them about what is really going on. And I
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: found that they're very good at mind manipulations. So they
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: started sending me emails about my son in the middle
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: of the night. Oh, I just wanted to let you
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: know about your son son's application. We have applied for
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: a restraining order or things like that the weekend and
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: send me something very terrible to get me upset and mentally.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: It's called psychological abuse. Really, I didn't realize, but now
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: Sam. To be clear, here, you were talking about the
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: legal staff from the local authority sending you this time
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: and the cial yes. Yeah, and for our viewers, for
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: our viewers, just want to reinforce what you're saying about
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: what you have been doing. You've been trying to contact
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: all sorts of people. So we've got three envelopes here
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: that you sent out. The first one this is recorded
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: delivery to Keir Starmer. The second second one is to
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: Lindsay Hoyle, the Speaker of the House, and the third
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: one is to the Right Honorable Honorable Yve Cooper, Secretary
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: of State for the Home Office. So you've sent out
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: paperwork to these people seeking help. Have you had any
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: response from them? What about our Prime Minister, Kir Starmer.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: I haven't had anything from Sakia Stam unfortunately up to now.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: I'm blessed that is also our member of Parliament in Horborne.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: The last we were in court, two press officers turned up,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: but they didn't even introduce themselves. They didn't know who
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: these gentlemen were. I survived human trafficking. I don't know
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: who is on the call. I'm always very apprehensive about
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: who is who is dealing with my children's case, and
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: I'm always investigating. I'm afraid. So I don't want I
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: don't want right Honorable If it's Cooper to say that
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: she wasn't informed about this injustice when she was Home Secretary,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: I don't want right honorable Sakias Stamma to say we
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: want informed or nobody told us about this as it
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: were right now as we are seeing what is going
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: on in our church, that things were not people were
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: not told or things were not very clear. I sent
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: the letter. It is received and we keep the record
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: so in times they will all be notified because it's
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: rightly so. Sakia Stama told us when he was coming
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: into government that he is he's going to deal with
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: the fundamentals, the foundations. In fact, he's promising us change,
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: and for me, I'm expecting a change to be justice
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: where the local authorities have failed to provide any form
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: of evidence, and also at a wider spectrum for someone
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: to look at child protection cases with an investigation that
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: is clear, because this is not just about my children.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: So many parents have been silenced, so many grandparents have
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: been silenced. They can't speak about it, they can't talk
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: about it. They are breaking down. They show some of
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: the show show workers are so sinister that after they've
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: taken the child away from a family, they will go
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: behind the scene and write to the employer of that
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: family to take over the employment as well from that family,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: and the parents are left destitute, they're left broken. For me,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: if you're taking away my child without any verifiable evidence,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: I truly believe it's organized child trafficking. And I'm so
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: sorry to say it that with briand but if you're
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: removing a child from a family and you don't have
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: any single shred of evidence and the only thing you're
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: using is abuse of power or silencing parents, I think
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: it's organized child trafficking.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Well, you needn't and you shouldn't apologize, because
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely right. When I first discovered what
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: was going on around the taking of non lawful taking
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: of children from parents around UK, I quickly called it
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: child stealing, child stealing by the state, and I believe
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: that is absolutely what it is, and it's highly orchestrated,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: and indeed it must be for it to be occurring
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: in every every single part of the country. So when
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: we talk to parents, what you get is a picture
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: that right the way across the country, these same procedures
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: are used to take children and ultimately, of course, if
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: the children are put up for adoption, money is changing hands.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: But worse than that that when children go into the
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: care system, they effectively disappear because the parents don't know
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: where those children are and therefore nobody has got real
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: oversight to see those children are safe. And my goodness,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: there's so much more to talk about. Just focus a
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: little bit on the press, because I think this is
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: interesting that over the years, it's been very very rare.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: Occasionally it's happened that press have got into a family
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: court hearing. Usually the judge tells them in no uncertain
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: terms what they can cannot report, but there have been
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: cases where family court cases have then become public. Now
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: you were surprised to find that actually two men attended
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: one of the hearings. They were both accredited press people.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: Let's bring them up on screen because the shows that
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: were absolutely telling the truth there. So one of them
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: was apparently Callum Park National Union of Journalists, and the
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: second man here was Clive Hammond, reporter. They've both got
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: PA media cards in date. So these people came into
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: your court hearing. Did they ever talk to you?
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: No, they didn't. I'm sincerely grateful that they were there
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: because for me, I need as many people as possible
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: to know about what has happened to my children, to
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: my family. And when I saw the gentlemen present. I
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: was overjoyed. I was so over the moon. But what
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: struck me is none of them spoke, introduced to themselves
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: or told me about whether they will be reporting about
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: what they've the witness to what they've observed in you know,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: in according to the law. I didn't hear anything from them.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: I didn't hear anything from the gentlemen. It's my children's
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: private hearing, so I needed to know who exactly was present.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: They didn't speak to me at all.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: They didn't speak to you. And do you believe that
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: they ever printed any any article or report on your
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: court case.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: Because we would know if they had done so.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: They didn't, right, And you didn't invite them into the case,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: so presumably they were invited by the court itself.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: And I asked how did the gentlemen get to know
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: about the hearing? And they said, once they have. I
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: think it's a license of some sort. They get notified
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: I think about cases, or they can look on which
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: case is going ahead and they can be present, right.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: I think it's this is another terrible aspect of these
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: secret or highly secretive courts, that the course press are
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: being controlled, even if they're let in the press are
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: still controlled and it's normally dirty deeds that are done
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: in the dark. So there has to be a reason
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: why family courts don't want the light of reporting brought
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: into them.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: I find sorry, go ahead, Sakia Stama is our member
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: of parliament. He has a duty of care for all
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: his constituents to know what is really on a grassroot level,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: and it is not right. It's a public servant. He
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: was elected by us, by the public, so it is
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: only right that he knows about injustices and miscarriages of justice.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: If you're telling the truth, I find it strange that
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: why shouldn't I tell people? If you're telling the truth,
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: you should be you should stand farm and you know
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: confident that people should know. What is the secrecy? What
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: are you hiding? I don't know.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: Well, I think we do know what they're hiding. Sam.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: I think that your testimony and the testimony of many
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: other moms, mainly moms but also dads over the years,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: is clearly bringing this thing to a head, that the
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: British state is unlawfully taking people's children. And if you
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: say why are they doing that, the immediate answer, and
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: the simplest answer, is because money is changing hands for
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: those children in whatever aspect of the children, whether it's
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: for their care, whether it's for their adoption, or in
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: very sinister cases, because those children are themselves being trafficked
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: into an abusive system where money changes hands. Sam, I'm
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: going to say we've probably got to end there, but
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: thank you very much for speaking to me again. You're
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: a very brave lady. And let me give you the
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: final words. What would you like to say to the audience?
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: How do we get this stopped? What would you like
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: to see.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: For me and my family? I think we would love
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: to see that the family cards are open, that any
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: member of any member of the public can go in
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: and listen in as the criminal courts, because in the
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: criminal courts, alleged criminals have a better chance to justice
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: than our children, than our families. And the fundamental of
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: the society is not us who are old. It's our
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: children that's the foundation. And truly, if Sakia Stama is
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: focusing on the foundations and his government as they say
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: that they are focusing on the foundations of society, then
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: truly they should focus more on the children's courts and
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: the family courts to have like a reform because a
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: lot needs to be stopped and to be changed. I
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: need my children back and they need me as their mom,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: so we are not going to stop. They seeking at
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: the pursuit of justice so they know what else I
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: have to say. This sounds a bit spooky, brand I'm
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: so sorry, but I have to say it because if
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: anything happens to me or my family or my community,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: it is those who took my children and lawfully. And
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: we say it with certainty because we have seen things
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: happen in our groups. We have seen strange things happen.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: But we live in a civilized society, non the mafia state,
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: so we will continue pursuing justice. Thank you so much
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: to the listeners and to the viewers.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: Sorry, go ahead, Sam, Thank you very much. We live
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: in a civil society, which yeah, I respond by saying,
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: do we perhaps we need another discussion on that, But Sam,
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: you're a very brave lady. Thank you for speaking to me,
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: and we will do our best to make as many
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: people as possible understand what is really going on in
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: the child protection system and what's been happening around your children.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: So thank you for joining me.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Thank you