Latest / Breaking Down Addiction / #17 Zach Grace — Heroin, Fatherhood, Faith & the Decision That Changed Everything

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#17 Zach Grace — Heroin, Fatherhood, Faith & the Decision That Changed Everything · Breaking Down Addiction

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: When I shot up for the first time, it was never going back.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Never doing anything else another way.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: If I can put it in this needle, I'm putting it in my body.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, and welcome to a new episode of Breaking Down Addiction, a podcast brought to you by National Addiction Specialists.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Johnny Phillip.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome today.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: And also we're we're joined by an amazing man, uh, beautiful person, and one of my good friends, Mr.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Zachary Grace.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for coming today.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Appreciate you, man.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Always.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Same here, dude.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: We uh we've gotten to know each other as brothers in recovery.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: We golf frequently together.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: We talk shit.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: All the time.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh we're we're gonna share everything from like your story to some moments of inspiration.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I like to start off all these episodes with the same exact question.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that is if you were sitting across from yourself in active addiction, and we're talking about like in your deepest, darkest bottom, if you could speak to that guy, what would you say to him?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Dang, bro, that's a tough one.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: You don't give me crime, bro.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: You don't give me emotional.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh man, honestly, if I'm thinking about myself, man, 28-year-old just lost his kid, like busted up, dude.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um man, honestly, you're worth it.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think a big part of like why people stay doing the things that we do in those times is because we don't think we're worth anything more than that.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I would tell him, bro, you're worth it.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Try to speak some identity into him, try to see what I see in him.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just I think a lot of times we would just speak into someone's potential instead of the person that is actually sitting in front of us.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: And we could really change some people.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Did you when you were using, did you envision a long life for yourself?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: No way.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: No, not at all.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think I yeah.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: So you were you were using and not worried about a year from now, 50 years from now.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: No, I was fixated on not even the next day, but just day to day, grind to grind, fix to fix.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh dope sick to well.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's my main goal.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you're you're speaking dope sick already.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I know that you were uh intravenous heroin user.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but you started drinking at age 13, right?
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: So lead us through that.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like you started drinking at 13.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: When did it pick up?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think you became like a full-blown addict at around 17.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, man.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think like just me and my story.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I talk to a lot of people and hear a lot of their stories.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: For me and mine, it's like you hear people and they talk about, I'll never do this, or um, I'll never go to the needle, I'll never smoke crack, I'll never get that bad.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: For me, it was complete opposite.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I just love that dopamine.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: I just love making myself feel different than I feel just naturally myself.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: So as soon as I remember drinking them Zimas, you remember the Zimas?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was my first.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I drank them three Zimas and all the Bro, I know you can relate to this, like that that uneasy feeling, or I wonder what they think about me.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder what she thinks about me.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: I got a girlfriend, but I want more girlfriends.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: That just unnatural feeling.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: When I drank that Zima, all that went away for me.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know about you and your story or other people's stories, but for me, bro, it was like I'm gonna do whatever it takes to feel this way for the rest of my life.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: You had this calming effect.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it shut out all the noise.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: Shut it all out, bro.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: It shut it all out.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're talking three Zimas to how like walk me through to how did that turn into more drinking?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And when did you start feeling withdrawal?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And when did when did heroin enter the picture?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: All that stuff.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it was super quick for me.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was drinking, it was knucklehead friends, getting around the wrong people.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: It was like, hey, you want to get drunk?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's do it.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Boom, drinking, and then nothing bad happened.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, oh, well, if nothing bad happens here, let's try this, this, this, this, this, and just see how it all feels.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: No consequences, no consequences early on.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Just drinking to now smoking a little weed, doing a little cocaine.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then I did what I feel like a lot of us do.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: We settle into like our own little cocktail.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if I can have this, my life will be better and your life will be better too, bro.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: So just out of my way.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, at like 17 years old, I got a couple little percocets, a little milk jug full of vodka, so I didn't get caught at school, and I'm on to the races.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: This is vodka at school.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just drink that before school, and now I'm like loosey goosey, everybody likes me because I'm not worried about what you think about me, so I can just be freely talking to everybody.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: But the bad thing about it is when you're eating these Percocets every day, one day you're not gonna have these Percocassets, your stomach starts hurting.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where it all started for me.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, dude, I don't like the way this feels.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then one of my friends was like, Oh, you're you're going through withdrawals.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, What's that?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: How long did that take from when you and also the the per cassettes that you got, was it just from a friend?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like try these?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: My mama.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: What I mean, if my mom sees this, she didn't know about that.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, just taking them.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, taking them from my mama.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was the kind of kid, like, once I found that you can make yourself feel different, I was in the medicine cabinet, bro.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, it didn't matter what it was.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: If it said, Don't drink grape juice with this, I'm drinking grape juice.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like, before I take five of them.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I found that she was prescribing things and started eating them, loved the way they made me feel.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: How long did it take for you to start feeling those withdrawal symptoms when you started using Percocet to about a year?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because I had a steady income, not a steady income, but a steady influx of the pills.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: I could always get them from her, get around the wrong knucklehead friends, always get them from them.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then when I didn't have one, I just I felt it and I was like, oh, I don't like this.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: How did heroin enter the picture then?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And when?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I go from percocets to not having the Percocassets, filling the withdrawals, and I've never been the smartest guy in this world, but I always had like a little business mindset.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, all right, cool, I'll just get a quantity of these pills, sell them to my little knucklehead friends, and then I'll never be sick, they'll be happy, and all this.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that just gets you around the wrong people, around the wrong crowd.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: So someone introduced me from Percocets to hey, these are a little bit better, these Roxys.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then, hey, these are a little bit better, these opanas.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then's were around a lot at that time.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the opanas, those were like my my thing.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Those seem like the bridge to fentanyl and heroin for so many years.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: I I think I know for me and my story that's it, but I think just for a lot of people that might have got prescribed them that ended up on fentanyl and heroin and other opiates, it it starts with those opanas.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, because they're just so powerful.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: But at the time, they were like, you know, 60 bucks a pop, and then everybody started cracking down.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: The pill meals were getting busted up, and all that stuff was going on.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: So then a pill that would keep me well went to like 120 for like one pill.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: So that's$120 for$120.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: $120.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: So what how much a day were you spending then?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: So$120 at least.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: You get around your friends, you try to split one just to get well.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe$60 on a good day,$120.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you you come up on a good day, you get two of them, you know, so you're feeling good, selling drugs to maintain this habit that that brings in consequences with the law.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: Now you got a bunch of charges.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: That was my next question.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: So if it's 120 a pill and you're sometimes maybe getting two a day, yeah, how can you afford this?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you're selling drugs at this point.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, looking back in a in the honest form that I am now, like back then, I would have told you, I'm a dope boy, and I I do this stuff and I move around like that.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: But really, I was just a uh an addict and I would do grimy things, rob people, not like strong arm, but like, hey, I'm gonna go over here and get this, let me get your money, and then you'll never see me again.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that type of guy, steal from stores, um, steal stuff from people to sell it.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it didn't matter.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: We could talk a whole hour about just stuff you do to get the fix to feel well.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: But where heroin comes into play is I got some charges out here, and I had this bright idea.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'll just go away from here, which Tennessee is my home.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'll just go away from here, live over here for a while, and then these charges will just will just kind of go away.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I had magically go away.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, magically go away.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I was 19, had the bright idea, I was like, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna take all my money, I'm gonna leave Dixon, I'm gonna dip to California, and I'm gonna live off the land.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that's my bright idea.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I tell people in recovery, I'm like, man, if you ever get a bright idea, like run it by somebody.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Because our minds don't think very well.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: But that was my bright idea.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: But even though it sounded fun, I was really like, man, if I could just get away from these drugs, because you know, you don't like living that lifestyle.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: You can make it sound cool and all that stuff, but nobody likes those, those dope sick nights, those mornings having to do grimy things, your mama crying, begging you to nobody likes that.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, Well, I got these charges, I don't want to go to jail, I got this addiction, I don't want that anymore.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'll dip to California, get away from all of this stuff, and restart my life.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I got go out to California, and what I thought was gonna be like this like radical, hippie lifestyle really ended up with me discovering heroin.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's no old pannas out there, and and you know, like I know, bro.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: Wherever you go, there you are.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like the the cliche recovery saying.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I I know that sometimes, and this is pretty rare, moving your geographical location will sometimes help certain people get sober to a certain extent.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh for me, I come from Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's eight bars on every corner.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Alcohol was my thing.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: And Miller owned the city.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the baseball park that the brewers play at, Miller Park.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: The brewers are named after beer brewers.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm learning.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like it is so driven by drinking.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew that once I got sober after about two years, I know that if I wanted to see a certain friend, I would have to go to this bar on the south side at five o'clock because they would be there.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I would have to constantly go to bars to go hang out with friends or go to a show with them, and they'd be super drunk.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I would just to get away from that was a good move.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: But then I always say that I'm I'm such an alcoholic that you could drop me off in the middle of a cornfield in Iowa.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: I will figure out a way in the next couple hours how to get fucked up.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure you could too.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you'd be out there shucking corn, trying to make some alcohol.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: But but tell me more about California.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you started using heroin there.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And like what was because you were supposed to be living off the land.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I can tell you this if you don't know, just because you grow up in like a town where there's farmers, don't mean that you like develop that knowledge through osmosis.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean, bro?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I go out there thinking this is gonna be really cool.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: And what was this cool idea?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: Really, without going into a war story, it ended up like this me standing on the side of the road with a sign, begging for money.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um because you had nothing.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: Had nothing.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: I I went out there and I met a friend that that was the hippie lifestyle guy.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: And to this day, I think he's still living that lifestyle.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: Shout out Matt.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: He's just incredible.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: That kind of guy.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: No shoes ever.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, so I go out there, I meet up with him, and uh just get around the wrong people, still with that mindset of I want something different, still with this addiction.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: And somebody was like, I don't know an old panel, but this is cheap.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and showed me heroin.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: I really loved heroin.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: I just really fell in love with that, and that comes along with everything that comes along with that.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, ended up holding the sign.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: I always had a little bit of pride about me though.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: My sign, check this, said broke but sexy.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's so you.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and uh it worked for a little bit, but um, just bringing it back how I got back here, um uh I I wound up losing my wallet out there.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: So you can't move around without an ID, food stamp card.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like you just can't move.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, all right, cool, I'll hitchhike back to Tennessee, get back here, get my stuff, uh all my birth certificate and stuff, get back right, and I'll come back out here and just keep this rolling.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because I just learned how to move that way.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, cool.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I hitchhike back to Tennessee.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: Took me like a month to get back.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: Holy shit.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: And um, but when I make it back, going back to them charges, just because you leave for a little bit, doesn't it?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: You don't magically go he don't magically disappear.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of what started my process of just getting caught up in the justice system.
• 13:47
  unknown: Okay.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, got got caught up, put in jail on probation, and then so on and so forth.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: I do want to rewind it a little bit.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you you got involved with heroin.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: What did your daily use look like at the time?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I hadn't gone to the uh the IV yet.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: I hadn't done that yet.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: It was snorting it, and it was it was basically it's not$120 a pill.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's everywhere, a lot cheaper, a lot more affordable, a lot easier to sell a sander that I bought I stole for 20 bucks to get well than it is to like take someone's wallet and get a credit card to get a pill.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a lot easier to move around.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: But the usage, it wasn't really kind of crazy out of control.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I mean, maybe I'm an addict and I think heroin's out of control, let's be real.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, it was, you know, half a gram and under a day, um, which is still to a normal person, that's wow.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, yeah, it gets a lot, it got a lot worse.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I look back at that thinking half a gram of heroin isn't bad.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: When when did you start intravenously using?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, great question.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh already back in Tennessee.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was actually living in Hermitage at Where we golfed recently.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: Where we golfed recently with the sheep.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, I was living in Hermitage.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: My my girl's uncle had a house there, and he didn't know that we were like addicts.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: He was trying to be nice.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, Well, I'm selling this house, y'all can just live in this house until it sells.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm in Hermitage living in this million dollar house.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Unknowingly enabling some drug addicts.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm trying to work a little job.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we don't have any bills, no rent, nothing like that.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: So everything that I'm getting goes in your arm.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: Goes in my arm.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, not yet, it was going in my nose at first.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then I had a friend come in, uh, just a it was just random, you know, wrong people.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Had a friend come in that I went to high school with.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: We played baseball together, and he was in town and he did heroin.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: And he had a a bag of rigs, and I seen him doing it, and he was doing a lot less with a lot more effects.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, man, let me try that.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you can make your drug stretch a little bit.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: You can make it stretch a little bit, yeah.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: So that was when uh at the time I didn't know how to do it myself.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, here, do it for me.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: And he did it for me, and it was you know, I think people like us, you hit them shifting factors in your life.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like I've had a couple throughout my life, like your parents get divorced, you try drugs for the first time.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: When I when I shot up for the first time, it was never going back.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Never doing anything else another way.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: If I can put it in this needle, I'm putting it in my body.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've uh I've I've also heard, you know, certain drug addicts that they're scared of needles their whole life.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when they go to the doctor, they'll never get blood drawn.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: But they but they shift heroin use because they don't even care at that point.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: They know what's coming.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make them fear the needle.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think it's uh partially more of an addiction than even the drug.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's the it's like the routine.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: The routine, the the prick of your skin.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like even nearly eight years clean, like I can still like you'll have dreams.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a thing, like when you think ceremony.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you just to move a little bit on from your usage, so there's there's prison cent there's jail sentences, there's multiple treatment stays, psych hospital stays.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the last time you put a needle on your arm was 228-18.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: 928-18.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: 928-18.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: So 2018, which this is this is pretty lucky for you in your drug use, because this is before fentanyl really enters the picture.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I see I see people struggling now, and it's definitely different.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's definitely different.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you would at toward the end of my run, thank God, um, it was getting a lot stronger.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: You you would ask for heroin and you would you would OD off a half a tent.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was coming around.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: I was ODing a lot more.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: I was wake up in the hospital with the tube being pulled out of your throat.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like scary stuff, bro.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: But how many times do you think you OD'd in your dope?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: Man, I don't know.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: I countless.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: I OD'd so much at one of my dope man's house, he wouldn't let me come by no more.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:44
  unknown: Damn.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: He just kept having a narcie.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: You got kicked out of your dope.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if that doesn't tell you something about your drug use, you know, and you probably still didn't realize the big picture at that point.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Found another one.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I think that if fentanyl would have been in the picture, you might not be alive.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'd definitely be dead.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I started working in treatment like right beginning of COVID.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And when we started drug testing people in detox, they would always say, like, hey, bro, you don't even need to check that.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's just gonna be positive for heroin.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it was never positive for heroin at that point.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was all fentanyl.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, yo, my my dealer said he was giving me good stuff.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, bro, you're gonna trust your dealer.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'm I'm glad that you didn't start using fentanyl intravenously.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: That I mean, like that, you would be dead.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but what made the shift with those psych hospital stays, jail sentencing, multiple treatment stays?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: What made this shift for you and what happened?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, to get clean.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: My kid.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: I will get emotional talking about my kid, bro.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh dude, I get it.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: I get it.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: You're a dad, man.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and like, shout out my dad.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: We got a great relationship today, but growing up, my dad wasn't around to be the type of dad that I always wanted.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like to throw the football in the in the uh yard type dad, you know?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: My dad was really hard, great provider, nothing bad ever, but it wasn't like a great relationship.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: So when I found out I was having a kid, I was actually locked up.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: And when I found out I was having a boy, I was on the jail phone.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: And she told me, Yeah, I went to the doctor, he's a boy.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: And dude, the like the it was that moment where it was like, I want to be a dad.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you're hearing this through the phone in jail.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's gotta be a hell of a feeling.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: I know, man.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: In the worst possible way, yeah.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: And the worst possible thing is like getting out of that jail sentence and going right back to the needle.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's addiction.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Even though I wanted to be a dad, but to kind of fast track on, it was my kid.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um due to mine and her decisions, like our kid, he was taking from me the day he was born.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Just you know, nothing better.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the moment he was born.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: The moment he was born.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: And um you would think that that would wake somebody up, but addiction.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's just that's that's how sick it is.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I do want to back back up just a little bit from this point that you made.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: I myself, I couldn't get sober for my family, I couldn't get sober for my significant other, a child, nothing.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and you were experiencing that at that time too, because once you had this jail sentencing and you knew that you were gonna be a dad, you still couldn't get sober at that exact point, right?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: So what was going on there?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: So you would you would think that you would stop, like we all should.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like the tears, whatever.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: There's many things that should be.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Be able to stop for your kid.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I I really wanted to.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that was one of the things early on, treatment centers, psych hospitals, overdoses, all these different things.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: You want to stop, but you really think you can still keep going.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: But now my actions have affected someone on this earth that has no say in this.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: So now I want to stop, and no matter what I need to do, I'm going to do it.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I still can't stop.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's the darkest I've ever been in my life.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's the depth of now I'm gonna listen to someone else.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: So when I get the opportunity, now just kind of go into this, you want me to back up, just let me know.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: No, go ahead.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: I get I get the opportunity.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: Lincoln's about two months old.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: His his that's my son's name.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Shout out Lincoln.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: But Lincoln's about two months old, and he's in the custody of um my girl's mom.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm still trying to finesse.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'm on community corrections at the time.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where you have uh house arrests, all this stuff.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm trying to run around and do what I want to do while still do what they ask me to do.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: While I get caught.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're still messing around at the time.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, still messing around.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: You can't fade a drug test when you're drug tested twice a week.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's impossible.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: I tried it.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm sitting in front of their in front of my pro officer, and she's like, uh, hey, you failed like three drug tests.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: And this is where I seen God like really come into my life.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: Is um the probate, my community corrections officer that was seeing me every week, she took some time off.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: And she was literally, I had told this lady, hey, I'm I can't stop using drugs.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Do what you must.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: I can't stop.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: I've tried.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, another lady with some fresh eyes and maybe like some fresh compassion sat in front of me and she said, Instead of sending you to prison and doing the rest of your time, let's try treatment again.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Okay.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then she said, let's try a year of treatment.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, No.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: You just you you had a boy, and you're like, I can't give up a whole year of his life, right?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm not a mathematician, but I know one year is a lot less than four years sitting in a cell, so I said, okay, let's do it.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: And that led to 928-18, me putting the needle in my arm for the last time.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: I sat in her office the 27th.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: She said, You got to check in on the 28th.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I checked into that treatment center, 928-2018.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I pulled up.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: They had the it's up on a hill.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's a gas station right in front of it.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: I pulled into the gas pump, did my last shot, and something told me that that's the last one.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: I threw the needle out the window, pulled up into treatment, and I've been clean ever since.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: That last usage where you're like, Looking back, I'm fucking done.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm done, bro.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm done.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: I knew it was my last time.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: I knew it.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: I just I knew it.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know how I was gonna do it, but I knew that I was gonna give it everything I had.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: And there's just something in that moment, like I can vividly think back to that moment, throwing that needle out and just knowing it's the last time I'm doing this.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's that's super powerful.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you were you were taking your power back, and you you probably didn't realize it at that point.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so tell me about this woman and how how God entered your your life at this point.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know that you're a big faith-based guy.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a big part of your community and your story.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: So after I'll just kind of fast forward and then it'll make sense.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: Cool.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: So about four years clean, my probation off the lady that took some time off, she retired.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: And this point, we have a beautiful relationship, and she asked me to speak at her retirement party.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: So that's special.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I was thanking her for the millionth time.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, giving like, hey, I'm glad you took some time off.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: And she explained to me that that, and this is why I say it was God.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: She explained to me that at that time the reason why she took time off is because she was getting so frustrated and just um had no compassion.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: And God told her, hey, you need to take some time off.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, because she's a woman of faith.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: I don't she was burnt out.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: She was burnt out, compassion fatigue, dealing with addicts every day, giving her BS after BS.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: So she took some time off.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Good.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's good for her.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it ended up working for you too.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: Because if she would have not taken time off, she would have just been like, I'm signing this warrant by.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's how she felt.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I had a fresh eyes in front of me that gave me an opportunity.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: But I didn't find out about that four years later, and it it did something to me in that moment.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: We're like crying and hugging each other, and I was like, thanking God, like, thank you for speaking to her.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because I don't know what would have happened.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 27:00
  unknown: Yeah.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's moments like that in all of our stories where it's like if this one thing didn't happen, I wouldn't be here right now today.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, thank God for her.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um what did it look like getting your custody back of your son at this point, too, and all of that?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh that was a whole nother list of problems, you know.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: As we we think when we get clean, everything's gonna be like I want to parade because I'm clean.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: You should drop all the peachy key.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, everything's gonna be great.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I go through this year-long treatment center.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: One of the most difficult things I ever did.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, had so many different spiritual experiences through this treatment center.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Three months in, realized I ain't thought about using in three months for a guy like me.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's a huge ordeal.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I kept going.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Six months in, I ain't smacked nobody in their face in six months.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like something internally is changing.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm growing.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: A year goes by, I graduate.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, just loving life, but now I got no license, no uh job.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: No money.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: Just coming out of treatment, you know.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh I go down the road and I hear this guy's hiring.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: I walk in, I say, man, I don't know nothing about nothing, about nothing you're doing here.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: But I'll be here every day at seven if you'll give me a shot.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: He gave me a shot,$12 an hour.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sober,$12 an hour.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: I got a sponsor and I got a meeting house and a relationship with God, and I go to church.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I just kept doing these things.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I had good men around me, so 18 months clean, I was able to walk into a juvenile courtroom and they gave me full custody of my son.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: 18 months clean.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Still didn't even have my driver's license.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't know that.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you couldn't bring him to daycare.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I did.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: I did.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: Probably not the smartest thing, but I didn't do what I had to do as a dad.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: And um uh yeah, man.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: But that was what kind of made me get my license back because I'm driving him to daycare, like I'm gonna get pulled over clean, sober, sponsoring guys, no license.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: What am I doing with my life?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I started making the decision, I'm gonna do whatever I gotta do to get my license back.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it I just blew it up in my mind because I had stuff in like Kentucky and Murfreesboro and all these different places.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: I just started making phone calls and like did the work, and I got my license back in like a week.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was super easy.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: Incredible.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was about four thousand dollars, but it was yeah, but I did the work, so then you can't tell me nothing now.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: I got a driver's license.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I I do want to back up just because you're such a faith-based guy.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Did this woman give you a Bible?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Did was there a spiritual awakening at this point?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of want to know a little bit about that because you you kind of like ease this very calm spiritual guy.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: Through and through when I hang out with you.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: If you if you got a second, I'll tell you kind of like a little story.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: I got all the time in the city.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: All right, better.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: I love it, bro.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm locked up.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: Lincoln, Lincoln is uh about to be born.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm locked up.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: And when I'm locked up, there was a guy coming into the jail trying to do uh celebrate recovery classes, one-on-ones.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: CR, I heard great.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: CR, yeah.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm in a solitary cell because I got caught doing drugs in jail, you know, a bunch of crazy stuff.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: I said, well, if it'll get me out of this cell, I'll talk to you.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I began to go and talk to this guy one-on-one, and he began, and finally I asked him, I was like, I was like, man, what do you get for coming in here?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because the extent of my relationships with other dudes are like, what do you get?
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: What can I get from you?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: And for this guy to come in and just be like really caring for me, it that's where God began to work, like show up in my life.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't someone telling me, God wants you to do this, it was somebody showing me like the love of a higher power.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's what changed me.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I began to listen to this guy and then keep just tracking forward.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: Now, this guy worked at the center that my parole officer sent me to or suggested me to go to.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: So by this guy being who God wanted him to be for me, is this tracking?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, truck.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: So by him showing me guys love, and I knew he worked at this place, when she offered me a place to go instead this facility's name, I equated it with this loving dude that came to talk to a drug addict in jail.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: And he, this guy's expecting nothing in return.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: Expecting nothing in return, bro.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: He's coming in there on a volunteer basis just to try to share recovery with a guy.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, okay, well, Hope Center, this guy was Hope Center, cool, I'll go, I'll go there.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: So when I go in there, I already go in with an open mind of this place.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: And you got to go in open open minded willingness, honesty, like these are core things for recovery.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I go in and when I go into the center, I'm I'm dope sick.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: They don't do a medical detox.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm going through it, bro.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's like Gatorade in water and sweat it out in this place.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: You can't eat.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Can't eat, can't sleep.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I lay there for about three days, and then the director comes up to me and he says, Hey, you gotta get up and you gotta start doing programming.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: Regardless if you come to class or not, you gotta shower.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody say you stink.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, all right.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, all right, I get it.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I measle on to the shower, and then I said one of the most honest prayers I ever said in my life, in the shower.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: I got stuff coming out all ends, you know, withdrawals.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: I ain't gotta go into that.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: But I said, God, I hope you're real, because I need something to change and I need it, I need it now, man.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: And uh the next morning, I measle on down to um chapel.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: You gotta go to chapel at like 4 30 a.m.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's a tough program.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: But I go on down to chapel, and in this chapel, they give you a Bible reading plan, and you have to read two chapters of scripture every morning.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: And you pick one verse out of the two chapters and you break that down in your journal, and that's what kind of started.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: So this the two chapters were Nehemiah, and I couldn't read I couldn't pronounce it.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: I know nothing about the so I was like, I'm gonna skip that one.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: We'll do that one another time.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I seen Psalms, and everybody knows what Psalms is.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: So the chapter of the day was chapter 34.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: So you gotta read the chapter, pick one verse.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm reading the chapter and I get down to 34, I get down to 18, and it says the Lord is close to the brokenhearted, and he rescues those whose spirits are crushed.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: And for me at that time, I've always been good.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: If my spirits crushed, I can smile and act like everything's cool.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I was acting like put a mask on.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: But it was like God's way of speaking to me, like, hey man, I see that you're brokenhearted.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: I see that you're crushed.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're thinking about Lincoln, you're thinking about all the things that you've done.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: The drugs are out of your system, it's all flooding in.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm I'm close to you right now, man.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: I brought you here to restore you.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it that's just what kind of kicked it off.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I had little moments like that throughout that whole year, just time after time after time after time.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, started getting really emotional there.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: No, there's no coincidence there either.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: Nah, man.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh just this is a side note, you're such an incredible dude that you had me crying, and then 20 seconds later you had me laughing.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's your personality to a T.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, dude, I'm just so glad that everything locked in when and where it was supposed to be.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, bro, it locked in.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great way to put it.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: It everything was locking in, and I had great 12-step knowledge, but I could never get to third step and quit.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: I I didn't have a higher power, I couldn't connect with nothing.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: I tried everything, man.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: I I draw pictures with like lions on rocks and try to pray to them.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm trying, I never would stick, but man, something for me, and and I'm not here to preach it people, but I'm here to tell people what brings me peace and me hope.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: And man, a relationship with God, bro.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's what when I meshed my 12-step knowledge with my relationship with Jesus, my life began to flourish.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you you become unstoppable.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for me.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, locked in.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um you did you didn't believe that you can get sober at this point.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what stopped that disbelief?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: The three-month, six-month, like um being in a a structured environment, held accountable.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: I can't go get drugs.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's one thing.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: Gotta have that.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I had never I had been to 30 days of treatment, learned some good things, get out, and go right back.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: I I had learned great things, but I didn't have the time to apply great things.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe not the necessary tools too.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: A longer term program seemed to suit you.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: For me, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a fit for everybody out there.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: For me, it was long term and it's exactly what I needed.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it gave the time was huge for me because the time, you're gonna go through things in a year.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: You might not go through things in 30 days.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I had great coping skills and tools, but with that year that I had, I had time to go through things.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: I went through a lot in that year, a lot of ups, a lot of downs, and those down moments where it's easy for a guy like me to revert back to what makes me feel good, which is my drugs, my alcohol, my women.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't have those things.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: I had to find another solution.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: So it forced me to rely on God in those moments.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then in some sort of way, through forcing me to rely on God, it taught me to rely on God.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because I seen He pulled me through every time.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: Every time I would have a down spot, and I'd be like, Man, God, I need you on this one.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: He pulled me through.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: You got introduced to this new thing that's gonna help you through your entire life, yeah.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: In in the whole best way possible.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um what kind of tool?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is a a double-sided question here.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of tools worked for you at that point when you were like that, let's say that first year when you're getting so first year out of treatment or in?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: I would say in, and then what what does that look like today?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: How has that evolved?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because I find that recovery for me and many people is the more curious you get, life gets in the way, different things or things that worked before maybe might not work today.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you need to find different tools and practices.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's an amazing question because you're so right.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't say evolve evolve and change, that's the perfect way to describe it.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: Because my recovery at a year is not my recovery at eight years.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's just it.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, for me at a year, it was it was a lot of scripture.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: I love scripture, man.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's just who I am.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: I love scripture.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: I love breaking down scripture.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: That is who I am.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um I love how it lines up with AA.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: I love how the big book, you know, um, so to break it down, a lot of scripture, uh, a lot of prayer.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think if you had a secret sauce to my recovery, it's prayer.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, prayer life, spending intentional time with God.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's those those three components in me.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: Intentional time with God in the morning.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: If, now I'm not saying I'm perfect, bro.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like I don't get up every morning and but when I do, my days are perfect.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when I when I start my day setting my mind on things above, like the scripture tells us, instead of like, what I gotta do, I gotta do this email, I gotta make this phone call.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: When I can take 10, 15 minutes and say, God, all right, before we get going, let's fuel up.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what do you you know, talk with him, get centered myself with him.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's huge for me.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I also think pouring into other people, like I can- service work to service work is huge, bro.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: Service work can keep you sober.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: I know that you still do a lot of this to this day because I'll see photos of you speaking at a church.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know that you still talk at recovery groups.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like what and sorry to interrupt, but like, yeah, what is what does today look like that's helping you?
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: Today, so early on, a lot of meetings.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: I went to a lot of meetings, met a lot of people.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: I don't go to a lot of meetings no more.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, some people be like, you don't go to meetings, you know.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the same way, and they they people could say what they want.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't care.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's what works for you right now.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: I I think overall, I look at recovery like a tailor-fitted jacket.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a big fashion guy, you know.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: You got the gear.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: My tailor-fitted jacket from men's warehouse isn't gonna fit Johnny.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: If you put my jacket on, it's not gonna fit you right.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's how my recovery is.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: I've found what fitted me.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: Now you can try mine on and it might fit you, but keep trying stuff on until it works for you.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: What works for me today, I go to therapy.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: Every Monday I'm in therapy at four o'clock.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: I go to a therapist.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's been a game changer for me.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: Just another male therapy.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: Also, I pour into other guys in any avenue.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm one of them guys that think it's our responsibility not to say no when somebody asks you to tell your story.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: When somebody says, hey man, can you come pour into my I got some guys in detox that need somebody to tell their story.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm there.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: So always say yes when somebody's always say yes when somebody asks, okay?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think still a scripture guy, um, still a church guy, not really a meeting guy no more.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, nothing about that, nothing bad to say about that.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: I just found what works for me.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's okay.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: You have these other things that you're implementing.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: And uh staying present, staying in the moment.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'll be uh I could be here, but I'm thinking about 10 other thousand things.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: Which is easy to do.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: Easy to do.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: But when I take time to like, if my kid wants to throw ball, let's throw ball with my kid.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: Not like, hey, hold on, let me shoot this email.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: So those are big things for my recovery, man.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: Staying present.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's a great thing to think about.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think all of us listening to this right now, they could take that piece of advice and go pretty far with it.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like put the phone down, whatever, like your wife, your partner, your son, your daughter, your mama, your dad, yeah, like what whatever.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: Get enriched by that experience because those that experience will never happen again.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, I'm gonna listen to this back and remember what I said and start applying it.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because these days, you know, we can say good things, yeah, but it's hard to apply these things.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: So we need reminders.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: That happens.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a big a big tool that I've used in the last year is being outside and playing golf.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it sounds ridiculous, probably to some people, but there's nothing better than being outside, and golf is a lot like recovery to me.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: So if you focus on this one shot and you screw it up and you get upset, it's gonna affect your next shot and so on, and you're gonna play terrible, you're not gonna have a good time.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: Move on to the next one, you're gonna play better, you're gonna shoot better, have fun.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um what what are some because I know that you have some, but what are some non-negotiables in life and recovery for you?
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: Non-negotiables?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what do you mean by that?
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: Explain a little bit.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: Something something that you're like, I will not back down from this one ticket item.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like my spirituality, I'm not backing out of that for anything.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's a non-negotiable.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's a non-negotiable.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um your son.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then some are there any recovery tools to you?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like therapy.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: Sounds like therapy is non-negotiables.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you're you're in therapy, not really going to meetings anymore, service work to others.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: I guess maybe we talked about those nine negotiations.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, those are great.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: I've never been asked that.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: Non-negotiables.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think for me, it changes.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think there's no non-negotiables.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm I'm always willing to add things, I'm always remaining teachable.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: If you would have asked me a year clean, what keeps me clean, my answers are completely different than what keeps me clean at eight years.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: So if I would have had non-negotiables at a year, would I be where I'm at today at eight years?
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm always willing to drop some things off that aren't working good for me in that season.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also willing to add some things that might be something new.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um moving on from that, you were a youth pastor.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: Love it.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh tell me about how you got involved in that and how long that lasted.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: And you're you're helping these young men, right?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: Still something I'm super passionate about.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I was working a regular job,$12 an hour, and I was annoying everybody that I come into contact with, with, with like recovery and Jesus.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's all I talked about, it's all I did.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I just felt like there was God was speaking to me in my Own way.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not here saying I hear the voice of God, nothing like that, but I do feel nudges.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: And he was speaking to me that like he wanted more from me.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: He wanted more out of life than just punching a clock.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I started, I started fasting and praying, you know, like really trying to take it serious.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: On like I look at fasting like it'll quiet your flesh so that your spirit can speak like that.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: How long were you fasting for?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: Man, not long.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not that guy that's no 40 days, 40 nights type stuff.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: No, I would just kind of drop some things off that feed my flesh.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: And when I feel the need to want to go toward them things, some would be food, some be water, some be a certain type of food, sugar, whatever it is.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm trying to deny my flesh and go more toward the Lord to seek answers on my life, if that makes sense.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: So in the season, I was doing that.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: And during that fast, I started getting mad messages from like parents on my Facebook.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because I do a lot of Facebook content too.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: So they were like, hey, my son got caught doing this.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: Can you talk to him?
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: My daughter got caught doing this.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: My son.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, okay, guy, are you like calling me the youth?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: These opportunities are just popping up at the end.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, yeah.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I started serving at youth at my church.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then I realized because of the tattoos and I think the way I talk, and they listen to what I say.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I just kept serving and then I just kept serving.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then it just, I got offered to be the youth pastor.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I stepped into full-time ministry, being the youth pastor at compassion.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: And dude, I miss that.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: I still, anytime they call me, hey, we need a speaker, I'm there, bro.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like I love the youth.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: I just think if we can take time for them, man, we can really make some impact on this world.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: And they struggle just like we did, you know.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: Think about Johnny at 1213.
• 45:42
  unknown: Yeah.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, think about Zach at 1213.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this leads me to my next question, too.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it sounds like at 13 and around like 1415 for me, it was just a drink with friends.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like you had your Zima.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what would you say to either young men, young young girls that are having just a drink with friends?
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: And how fast can that turn into something that is out of control?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think speak facts to them.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay?
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of us approach this prevention thing with teenagers as a just say no.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: Just say no don't work.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: What I do when I go to do presentations in schools, when I speak to youth, I speak to them and I would speak to myself.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: I speak facts.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, look, here's the facts.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: It don't matter what your mama says, it don't matter what your guidance counselor, your pastor, it don't matter what nobody says, you're gonna do what you want to do.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: Period.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm gonna do what I want to do as 16, 17 years old.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna do what you want to do.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: Take the experience and the facts that I'm giving you, like my story, my experience of someone that's been down that road.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: Make your decision off my mistakes.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I put the ball in their court, just like I will put the ball in young Zach's court.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, bro, I know you're going through a lot.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: First off, feelings ain't facts.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: You're better than your mind's telling you.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: But secondly, I see the road you're about to go down.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: I see you casually drinking with your friends.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: I used to casually drink with my friends.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: But who would have told me that a casual drink would have led to me sticking a needle in my neck?
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because you didn't have vein left in.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, veins be rolling.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: I want to just go straight there.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: But, anyways, so I think just being real with them, don't think we're overexposing them.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: I used to be scared of that when I got speaking, I got asked to speak in like a middle school.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I don't want to overexpose them.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: Dude, the conversations with those sixth graders, that the stuff that they're dealing with at home blew my mind.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, because of probably TikTok and internet, exposure's not a thing no more.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: These kids' sixth grade years, like my senior year, they already know what's up, they're already experimenting.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: So why not why not come in?
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: Guys like you, guys like me, be real with them.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: Hey man, you're worth more than that.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you're worth more than that.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I think hearing it from somebody like you that looks like you, that experienced it, is helpful.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because I remember in you know, seventh grade, our guidance counselor giving us a presentation on drinking and smoking weed.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just like, now I kind of want to drink and smoke weed.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because he don't.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and like this from this like straight lace dude.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um no, those those are such great points.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have to blanket them with information by the right people constantly.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because now with fentanyl, one slip, that's death.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: Bro.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I know fentanyl is getting in the hands of the younger generation, yeah.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: What that's one of the things I touch on when I talk to the schools, is um so like the last numbers that come out, it was something like 4,000.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: 4,000 middle Tennessee people died overdose.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: You look at like the nation, it's like a hundred thousand, hundreds of thousands.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was last, I don't know.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: Anyways, we ain't gonna get on numbers, but half of that 4,000 is is roughly kids from 15 to 25.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: With 25 and also an adult, but still a kid.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: And you live their life.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, that's that's not even that's not even a chance at life.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I asked him when I give them these numbers, I'm like, this is the number why I'm here.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: These 1,500 kids are like, this is why I'm here.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then I ask them this, I'm like, do you think that those kids meant to die?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: And all of them are like, nah.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, exactly.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: They're just with the wrong knucklehead friends trying to have a good time.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_02: Not playing a game, you know?
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: So And the stakes are a lot higher than they ever were.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so going from Hope Center to some youth pastoring to Freeman Recovery now, and you've been doing business development.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Did I miss something there?
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_02: Miss something.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I went from I went Hope Center, then I went uh youth pastor, then I got the opportunity to work at Hope Center.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: Worked for them for a long time.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, work for them for a long time, love Hope Center, love what they do, wouldn't be here without them.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: But um nonprofit grind was uh it's a different beast.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: It is and I had a I got a young kid, I need to be home with my kid, and um doing the job that I do now gives me the opportunity to do that.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, a little more um a little more freedom from being in a in a facility every day.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I had an issue with working when I worked at a detox, I was around sick people, you know.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: We had 36 beds total, not many detox beds, but I'm just every day in a facility with sick people.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's really taxing.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, taxing.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um but so business development now for Freeman.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I know that you have spoke hardcore on collaboration.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: Love it.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what what do you what would you say that true collaboration is between facilities and whoever else that is in recovery recovery?
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: Great question, Johnny, bro.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um I look at I look at this thing that we do, because we both do it.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: Man, we're out here to we're out here to keep people from dying, give people what we have found.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think that a lot of places that I come into contact with, they they say, Oh, we're the one fits all, like we're the great fit for every client.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the solution.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: The solution is here.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like that can be detrimental, okay?
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I also feel like together, it don't matter what fill facility it is, together when we partner and we collaborate, we are the solution for everyone.
• 51:52
  unknown: Totally.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because you have a piece that my facility doesn't have.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we would we actually just talked about that the other day.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like this FaceTime that we have really helps because it refreshes our memories on services rendered.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, yeah, you know, you have Freeman Health Partners and we do Saboxone virtually, and it's like something connected between you and I that didn't care about it.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's collaboration, it's conversations, it's talking, but it's also being willing to understand, like, hey, I don't have it all.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have it all.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_02: And not only some facilities don't have all levels of care, like we do have all levels of care, but some facilities don't.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_02: Even beyond that, each facility has its own different fit.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like each person, like Hope Center was a great fit for a guy like me.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: I've sent people to Hope Center and they dip.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a good fit.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_02: Wasn't it a good fit for them?
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not a one-stop shop on treatment facilities.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_02: The beautiful thing about it is there is a lot of treatment facilities to choose from.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_02: But if we, as the people that nine times out of ten, we're the ones talking to the potential client, the one struggling.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: If we can take five, ten minutes and call them and hear their voice, they hear ours, it's a real person that's been through it.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you guys hash out a plan that they're comfortable with, exactly, and that you think that will suit them to live the best life.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_02: One of my main questions when I talk to anybody that's struggling, so man, in a perfect world, where would you end up?
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_02: I always say that.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_02: In a perfect world, where would you end up?
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_02: And you really get the reel of what they desire.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_02: Man, I'm looking for XYZ.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, cool thing about me is I'm literally out here networking and marketing 24-7.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I know all the facilities.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're looking for this one, dude, I know a great spot for you.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then I call that, I said, you know what, man?
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: I've been where you've been a hundred billion times.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_02: Don't do no legwork.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna do the legwork for you.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna call the facility, I'm gonna get them to call you.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_02: Just taking time to hear a person's story instead of just like, you know.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I totally feel you.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: There was this girl that called me the other day.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she's looking to she was on Suboxone, but then she is looking to try to get into some sort of outpatient that wasn't just Suboxone.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, I'm not gonna force her into doing our treatment.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: She needs some outpatient therapy, some counseling group.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, and she said that she was on the phone all day with people.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I basically got her policy and I I did my algorithm in my head.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: I reached out to some folks, and for what she was dealing with from seven in the morning to seven at night, I spent an hour on it, and she's been in this IOP for the last two weeks.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Johnny.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's just like, and I I don't want to share those cases to just to, you know, like a a bragging situation like that.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like, man, if I could just give this person five minutes or half hour of my time, their life will change in a whole new trajectory.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and I think we all have to keep that fresh perspective because it's like doing BD is it could get really burnout and taxing.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I remember um two Christmases ago, we were all talking about BD in one of our text threads, and you sent us a screenshot, and you're like, BD is a grind, y'all.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: It my phone just said in 191 miles turn left.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I was like, That's how this is we do what we do to help people, and it's it's good to keep and also just have these conversations weekly, daily, yeah, to keep that fresh perspective.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we do talk to a lot of family members, you and I, and a lot many people in BD.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, for parents like parents listening right now that are just hopeless for their child, what would you say to them as a man of recovery, also a dad?
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_02: Man, tough question.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: You hit me with the bangers.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: First off, I would encourage them.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's not your fault.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that's cliche to say, but I speak with a lot of moms and dads, and they think what one of their questions to me is what I do wrong.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's not your fault.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: You would have that same question about your son, I'm sure.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_02: Also, you can't fix it.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I would encourage them to reach out to anybody.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna say call me, I'm not gonna say call Johnny, just reach out to somebody and understand the difference, and I'll I'll educate them a little bit here if they're listening.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: Understand the difference between the enabling and helping.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I I deal with a lot of families and coach them through that, and that really helps.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: They probably don't know that they're enabling.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so a lot of people my mom was the same, you know what I'm saying?
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: My parents were the same way.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: They were actually enabling me, but they didn't know because it's it's coming from a place of love, but it could do a lot of harm.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then us, the addicts we're gonna manipulate them, we're gonna keep doing it.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna keep them doing what they're doing so we could do what we're doing.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's a real quick uh rule of thumb the difference between enabling and helping.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'll share that with you, real quick.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_02: So enabling is doing something for someone that they can do themselves.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_02: Helping is doing something for someone that they can't do on their own.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, example, if I call you for money, you can get a job and get your own money.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't need to give you money.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm that's me doing something for you that you can do on your own.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_02: If you're struggling and you need some food, you might not be able to get food right now.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_02: I always give people food.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's just my rule of thumb.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_02: But uh yeah, keeping that in the back of your mind, always ask yourself this question Am I doing something for my loved one that they could do on their own?
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_02: Or am I doing something that they just can't do right now?
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: You're the first person to tell the difference between that talking to family members.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I appreciate you spelling that out.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I've I think about those two things in different ways too.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I I perfect way of spelling that out.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um dude, I I couldn't appreciate you more.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would love to come back and and have you on like in the next year just to see where you are in your recovery and what you're doing with work and helping people and if you're still still helping young men out there.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um but dude, I'm I'm so glad that you had this shift in your life and positivity and that you got your son back.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_00: You're working helping people.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: And for the listeners out there, I really want you to check out Freeman Recovery Center because you guys do all levels of care.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: You have housing, it's in the Dixon area.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you guys basically take all insurance.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: Everything.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, not everything, but we're gonna go into all that.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: Here's the thing about really me, Johnny.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_02: I know Johnny's the same way.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_02: It don't matter about insurance.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_02: Call us.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: It don't matter if you got no insurance, no more.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna find a solution.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, those are actually the ones I like working with.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_02: Me too.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: I like people like me.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't have any insurance.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_02: Someone took the time to talk to me.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: So now I appreciate it, dude.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, also check out Freeman Health Partners because it's another thing that you guys are doing.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um check out national addiction specialists, and then also if you can, please like and subscribe to the podcast Breaking Down Addiction.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's on any streaming platform, YouTube.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but Zach Grace, thank you so much for sharing everything today.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: Love you so much, brother.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: Love you, bro.