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CLASSIC: How did Fido become the default name for dogs? · Ridiculous History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, fellow ridiculous historians, is that you. We're so glad
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: to see you. Joy, Yeah, Joy joining us for a
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: classic episode. Look, names are tough. We talked I can't
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: remember which show it was, but we talked about how
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: tough it is to name a car. We know it's
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: tough to name a pet.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: And what is that? What is a toreg?
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  Speaker 1: He's still on it. So look, if you are investigating
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  Speaker 1: like we did back in twenty eighteen, the names of dogs,
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  Speaker 1: you will see the name Fido show up. And Fido
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  Speaker 1: is not a name for people.
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  Speaker 2: Sure Isn't you see it in branding for dog food
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  Speaker 2: and all kinds of stuff dating back to this is
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: the beginning of advertising. I've been watching or rewatching, actually
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: a lot of classic Looney Tunes cartoons recently. Pro tip
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: for any Max subscribers out there. Every single one of
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  Speaker 2: them is on there, back from the earliest ones like
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  Speaker 2: the thirties, and Fido is often what they call dogs
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: in the show you know, bugs bunny Less, You're like here, Fido.
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  Speaker 2: It's just kind of like a stand down, like coke
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  Speaker 2: is for soda or xerox is for a photocop. Sure
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Google for Internet search do we also have the do
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: we have the World War Two propaganda on Max? I'm
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  Speaker 2: not sure. I haven't been through all of it enough
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  Speaker 2: to know of what they've stripped, but I'm not one
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  Speaker 2: hundred percent sure. I wouldn't be surprised. I know that
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  Speaker 2: Disney has removed a lot of the problematic Disney cartoons
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  Speaker 2: from you know, Disney Plus.
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  Speaker 1: And we know how Fido became a default name for
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: dogs here in the West. Spoiler it goes back to
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: an amateur wrestler that we often bring up on the show.
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  Speaker 2: Good reach out on that guy. Thanks Abe Lincoln. Let's
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  Speaker 2: jump right in.
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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to the
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: show Ridiculous Historians, and thanks for tuning in. Whether you
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: have multiple PhDs and various specific aspects of the story
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: of human civilization, or whether you consider yourself an armchair
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: history enthusiast, one thing's for sure. You've probably probably met
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  Speaker 1: a dog.
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  Speaker 2: Probably I've met at least two dogs that was the
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  Speaker 2: same dog, though you think so.
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  Speaker 1: I think it was the same dog.
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  Speaker 2: Why do you think that?
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  Speaker 1: Because you showed me the pictures and I think it's
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  Speaker 1: the angle.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's weird. I'm more of a cat person. But
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  Speaker 2: now I've met multiple dogs in truth, and I've also
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  Speaker 2: heard of Abraham Lincoln.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, and today's story is about the confluence of these
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  Speaker 1: two concepts. When we think about dogs, we always think
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  Speaker 1: about strange dog names too, writ And there's one thing
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  Speaker 1: that always baffled me when I was a kid, when
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  Speaker 1: I traveled abroad, I didn't understand that dogs who grow
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  Speaker 1: up in non English speaking countries don't speak English.
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  Speaker 2: That's right.
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  Speaker 1: It's a weird thing, you know. And you probably ran
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  Speaker 1: into dogs who spoke German when you were in Germany.
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  Speaker 2: Are you teasing me, Ben?
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  Speaker 1: No?
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  Speaker 2: I mean like like they when they bark, they do
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  Speaker 2: it with like a German accent. Is that what you're saying?
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  Speaker 1: Well, they wouldn't respond to commands.
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  Speaker 2: There you go. Yeah, but I'll twist it around.
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  Speaker 1: Also, and something that has nothing to do with this episode.
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  Speaker 1: I think it's hilarious the way that other languages will
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  Speaker 1: right the sound of a dog bark. You can look
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  Speaker 1: it up for yourselves, folks. I think you'll enjoy it. Oh,
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  Speaker 1: I forgot Hi, I'm Ben Whoa.
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  Speaker 2: That was the longest preamble pre name drop opening ever.
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  Speaker 2: My name is NOL and just to get it out
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  Speaker 2: of the way and not get it out of the way.
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  Speaker 2: This is a cause for celebration. We'd like to welcome
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  Speaker 2: back with open arms, our super producer, Casey Pegram.
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  Speaker 1: It's been too long, Casey, thank you so much for
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  Speaker 1: returning here to the States, here to the studio, here
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  Speaker 1: to ridiculous history.
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  Speaker 2: Casey's into dogs, right, you like dogs. I'm a dog person, absolutely, Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: what would you say? You're more a dog person or
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  Speaker 2: a cat person both growing up, so I'm pretty agnostic
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  Speaker 2: or ambidextrous.
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  Speaker 1: I got with your animal affection.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So it's it's interesting because we often hear of this
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  Speaker 1: divide between cats and dogs, and with just a brief
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  Speaker 1: nod to the science behind domestication, it's fascinating nol. Dogs
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  Speaker 1: were domesticated by people, but cats largely domesticated themselves.
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  Speaker 2: Cats do everything for themselves. Man, They're persnickety little creatures
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  Speaker 2: who don't need us, and they will eat us when
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  Speaker 2: we die in our apartments, sad and alone.
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  Speaker 1: Or if the size difference was reversed, they would also
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  Speaker 1: eat you totally.
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  Speaker 2: If I told you about how my cat like brings
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  Speaker 2: little presents and like like just looks like they look
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  Speaker 2: like Satanic rituals laid out on my doorstep, like decapitated squirrels,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: and you know, with the guts in the shape of
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  Speaker 2: a pentagram and horrifying. Yeah. Yeah, and I share a
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  Speaker 2: bed with this thing. What am I thinking?
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  Speaker 1: Colleague? And someone worked within the past, laur And Vogelbaum
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  Speaker 1: has the same thing with her cat. That's because you
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: guys have indoor outdoor cats.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I finally put a bell on that little bastard,
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  Speaker 2: and now I'm hoping to give those things a fighting chance.
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  Speaker 1: See. I let my cats just be the agents of
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  Speaker 1: chaos they were meant to.
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  Speaker 2: No, that's true, and Lincoln appreciated cats in addition to dogs,
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  Speaker 2: cause he referred to cats as like one of his hobbies. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: but his old pal, his trusty sidekick through thick and thin,
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  Speaker 2: well up to a point, was an old dog.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a dog. And today's episode that we're
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  Speaker 1: finally getting too is about this dog. It's also a
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  Speaker 1: way to answer a question about dog names, because when
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  Speaker 1: you think of a dog, you think of generic dog names, right, spot, sparky, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: things like that. And I don't know about you know,
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  Speaker 1: but it's strange to me when I meet a dog
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  Speaker 1: with a person name.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, like Stephen or Ashley. I love it though. I'm
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  Speaker 2: a fan of it. When I first heard of a
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  Speaker 2: pet that was named after a human, I thought that
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  Speaker 2: was the most clever thing in the world.
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  Speaker 1: The first one I met was neither a dog nor cat.
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  Speaker 1: It was a turtle, and I was so impressed. His
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  Speaker 1: name was Robert Lewis Stevenson.
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  Speaker 2: That's great. He was a very trepidacious, explorative turtle for sure,
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  Speaker 2: very slowly exploring his surroundings.
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  Speaker 1: He was tentative. But with dogs, there's one name that
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  Speaker 1: always feels like the generic, the quintessential name.
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  Speaker 2: For a dog. Yeah, like a Kleenex yeah yeah, or
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  Speaker 2: xerox yeah, but you know for a dog, right, or Google.
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  Speaker 2: But for a dog, it's Fido right out here, boy here,
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  Speaker 2: Fido here, Fido? You ever heard that in the Looney
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  Speaker 2: Tunes cartoon?
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  Speaker 1: Very popular in Looney Tunes and I think some Disney
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  Speaker 1: stuff as well. These days, Fido isn't even in the
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  Speaker 1: top one hundred common dog names.
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  Speaker 2: They're a named Stephen and stuff.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah right, They're all named George Ashcroft or something. But now,
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  Speaker 1: even with the popularity of Fido declining. Everybody in the
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  Speaker 1: English speaking world at least associates the name Fido specifically
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  Speaker 1: with a.
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  Speaker 2: Dog like let me get a coke, you mean a soda? Right,
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  Speaker 2: let me see that Fido, you mean that dog like that?
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  Speaker 1: And it turns out right that there's a reason for this.
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  Speaker 1: There is a traceable, specific reason that Fido became known
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  Speaker 1: world over as a dog's name, and it goes back
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  Speaker 1: to our boy, young rail splitter himself, Abraham Lincoln.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that old yellow dog we were talking about.
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  Speaker 2: His name was Fido, and he was a mongrel kind
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  Speaker 2: of a mixed breed yellow, floppy eared fellow that Lincoln
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  Speaker 2: just adored. And he loved to play with Fido around
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  Speaker 2: his home in Springfield, Illinois with his sons Tad and Willie.
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  Speaker 1: Who are stories of their own, believe you me. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: as he before he became president, he had several dogs
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  Speaker 1: and cats in his home in Illinois, and seems like
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  Speaker 1: the crowd favorite was Fido. At least Lincoln's favorite was Fido.
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  Speaker 2: We'll get into a little bit more of the Fido
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  Speaker 2: lore later, but for now, in his heyday, Lincoln, before
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  Speaker 2: he became elected president, Fido he would walk around town.
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  Speaker 2: He would go get a little trim at the barber shop,
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  Speaker 2: and Fido would wait patiently outside for him, untied, just
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  Speaker 2: perfectly loyal. What's the word? Fido is short for what fidelity?
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  Speaker 1: Right? The name is Latin for faithful right. And for
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  Speaker 1: about five years before Abraham Lincoln became president, he was
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  Speaker 1: a lawyer, and Fido would just follow him everywhere.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I keep seeing mentions of Fido would even carry
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  Speaker 2: parcels for Lincoln in his mouth.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and he became sort of this walking business card
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  Speaker 1: for Lincoln as well in town because they would see
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  Speaker 1: the little yellow dog and they would know that the
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  Speaker 1: lawyer Lincoln was around. It was about Yeah, but fame
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  Speaker 1: changes things, right. In eighteen sixty three, as he was
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  Speaker 1: preparing to move to the White House to serve as
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  Speaker 1: Commander in chief of the US, people started to think
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  Speaker 1: that Fido was maybe a little too friendly, a little
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  Speaker 1: too outgoing.
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  Speaker 2: Not even that, maybe even a little fragile, right, because
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  Speaker 2: when in his hometown, you know, when the president won
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  Speaker 2: the election, there were you know, all kinds of all
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  Speaker 2: kinds of commotion, right, we had cannon fire fireworks.
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  Speaker 1: Screaming pol politicians. Yeah, people farting.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, all of that, various noises and Fido it was
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  Speaker 2: spooked by this. He was not excited about this. It
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  Speaker 2: made him very uncomfortable and he, you know, totally kind
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  Speaker 2: of Withdrew.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was described as a frisky mongrel in a
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  Speaker 1: Life magazine profile of him at the time. So he
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  Speaker 1: did not accompany. Originally, the Lincolns to DC. Instead, they
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  Speaker 1: picked up a dog named Jip and two goats, Nanny
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  Speaker 1: and Nanco and.
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  Speaker 2: Get were the goats to mow the lawn at the
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  Speaker 2: White House.
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  Speaker 1: You know, my old co host, Scott Benjamin is all
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  Speaker 1: about that.
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  Speaker 2: Well, there's a service here in Atlanta where you can
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  Speaker 2: rent a goat that'll clean up your their foliage.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not just in Atlanta. When Scott recommended
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  Speaker 1: to me that I, instead of repairing my lawnmower, rent
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  Speaker 1: a goat, I thought he was joking.
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  Speaker 2: But Gott doesn't joke about stuff like that.
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  Speaker 1: He doesn't really joke. He's a very sincere dude.
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  Speaker 2: That's true. Shout out to Scott Benjamin or is I
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  Speaker 2: like to refer to him f Scott Benjamin. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: Fido stayed behind and it took a while, but the president,
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  Speaker 2: it was very important for him that his old trustee
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  Speaker 2: yellow dog Fido, had a suitable home with suitable affections
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  Speaker 2: and spoilage.
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  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, exactly, And that's why he decided to have
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  Speaker 1: another person, a person he could trust, take care of Fido.
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  Speaker 1: Back there in Springfield, he contacted John Roll, who was
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  Speaker 1: a carpenter, and said, hey, you and your family, could
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  Speaker 1: you take care of Fido. He's a great dog. You've
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  Speaker 1: seen him around town. He's the one who carries parcels.
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  Speaker 1: They were old pals. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And so he
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  Speaker 1: was already familiar with Fido, but just like any helicopter
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  Speaker 1: dog parent. As Lincoln left to pursue the presidency, he
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  Speaker 1: also left behind detailed instructions for Fido's data care and
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  Speaker 1: spoiling and the stuff he likes. Stuff he doesn't lie.
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  Speaker 2: Now, dare we say conditions?
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  Speaker 1: Yes?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, additions? What were some of those? Hit us?
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  Speaker 1: Whenever the role family was eating, they had to give
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  Speaker 1: scraps from the table to Fido. Also, he could never
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  Speaker 1: be yelled at or scolded for having muddy paws in
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  Speaker 1: the house.
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  Speaker 2: This becomes a theme with Fido always having muddy pause right,
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  Speaker 2: and being a little too eager to hop up on people.
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  Speaker 1: And they gave him some equipment too, right, give the
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  Speaker 1: roles some equipment.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a custom couch that Lincoln himself had
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: built because, as we know, unlike the myth of Napoleon
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: being extra mega super short, he was just sort of
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: an average height, maybe a little shorter than average. Lincoln
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  Speaker 2: was in fact quite tall, yes.
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  Speaker 1: And some people have speculated is due to a condition
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: known as Marfan syndrome. But regardless of the cause, Lincoln
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: himself was one heck of a scarecrow. He was six
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: feet four, very skinny, looked like you could tie a
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: kite to him and he would fly away. And so
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: a couch that you would buy at the store was
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  Speaker 1: not going to accommodate a man of his height.
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  Speaker 2: His lanky frame, His legs would just be hanging off
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  Speaker 2: the side if he wanted to have a nice lie down, right,
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, I say this custom coust was made of
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  Speaker 2: horse hair. And it was also Fido's favorite piece of furniture.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm sure you had familiar smells and all that.
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  Speaker 2: And he made sure that the family that was taking
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  Speaker 2: Fido got this piece of furniture so that he could
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  Speaker 2: lounge around on it and feel super duper at home.
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  Speaker 1: And it's tough to overstate the importance of this sofa
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  Speaker 1: to Fido himself, because when he was frightened, this is
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  Speaker 1: the sofa he hid under. When he was happy, this
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  Speaker 1: is the sofa he lounged upon. In a very real way,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: the sofa, second to Abraham Lincoln is the most important
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  Speaker 1: thing in the home to fight him. We mentioned earlier
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  Speaker 1: Lincoln's sons, right, Tad and Willy, yep, Tad Willie, and
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  Speaker 1: they were of course hit by this. This was their
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  Speaker 1: childhood dog. They're saying, oh shucks, good on Dad for
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: being the president. But why can't fight ocus.
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  Speaker 2: The end of an era? You know? But they I'm
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  Speaker 2: sure Dad, all honest abe explained it to the boys
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  Speaker 2: very gingerly, and I'm sure they came to understand. I'm
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: speculating here a little bit. But they seemed like good boys.
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  Speaker 1: You might have said, look, I can do two goats.
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  Speaker 1: It's the best they could do.
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  Speaker 2: Well yeah, yeah, Hey, that's a good deal, though, man,
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  Speaker 2: one dog for two goats.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: Dogs don't mow your lawn either. Those goats, though, apparently,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: were hell raisers in the UF House. The staffers did
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: not like them because they would like not only chew
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: up the grass like, they would chew up like everything.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Have you ever hung out with a goat with their
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: weird octopus eyes, you mean, greatest of all time? I'm flattered, nol,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: thank you. No, the physical.
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  Speaker 2: Goat, now I have not. I'd be afraid they'd buck.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're weird. They can be affectionate, but they will
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: eat or near anything.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like you know, your fist or your heart. But
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  Speaker 2: that's just with their cuddingness.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah. So despite all the gestures and all
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: the reassurances you can make, anybody who has been a
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: parent who had to explain the loss of a pet
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: to a child understands that it's heavy and deep stuff,
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: whether it's just moving or whether the pet has passed away.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: And perhaps ridiculous historians, as you're listening, you're thinking of
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: moments in your life when you were a child and
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: you lost a pet or you were somehow put out
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: of contact with it. It's very psychologically trying, and Lincoln
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: to go with Allegedly here allegedly, Lincoln attempted to combat
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: this by resorting to a relatively new technology at the time. Yeah,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: he wanted to, you know, have a nice family portrait
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  Speaker 1: of Fido. And we've got these images around today. It's great.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: You can see them like lounging on what is it
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: like a look throw rug kind of situation. What do
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: we got here?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it looks like he is on a table with
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: a nice rug or heavy tablecloth, and he's got his
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: paws just roguishly hanging off like he's ready to jump,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: but he's comfortable.
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  Speaker 2: And this is back when you would have had to
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: stand really still. Doesn't it seem like taking a picture
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: of a dog would be challenging and best.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it would have to be a super chill dog. Yeah,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: but be that as it may. Turned out, it worked,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: and there's a pretty good photograph of Fido, which you
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: can find if you just google Fido, Abraham Lincoln. We
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: did find one wrinkle to the story here, at least
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: in terms of chronology, right.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is how we start getting well, I
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: think we can use this as a jumping off point
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: into the kind of sad part of this story. There
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: is a story and by the name of doctor James Cornelius,
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: who curates the Abraham Lincoln collection at the Abraham Lincoln
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Presidential Library and Museum, who says there are some issues
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: with the chronology of when this photograph was taken. Original
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: reports suggested that Lincoln himself commissioned it, and it seems
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: maybe a little more likely that it was done in
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: the aftermath of President Abraham Lincoln's assassination, when Fido would
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: have been a very famous dog and some eagle eyed
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: photog around Springfield thought it might be a hot ticket
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  Speaker 2: item to have photographs of the dog that they could
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: sell to mourners.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you'll hear two different versions of the chronology here.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: You'll hear that the photo was made after the assassination
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: or you'll hear that it was made beforehand. And regardless
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: either way, this photo gets into newspapers and Fido the
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: dog himself, and just the name Fido becomes universally claimed
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: in the US and probably a little bit beyond the
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: US as well. So this is when people start naming
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: their own dogs Fido. Right, A kid sees a dog
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: in the newspaper and the dog's name is Fido, and
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: they think, I'm gonna name my dog Fido, just like
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: President Lincoln's dog. And when Lincoln was assassinated in eighteen
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: sixty five in the Ford Theater. This did very little
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: to quell Fido's popularity. In fact, it added to it
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: isn't that correct.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, Ben, that's exactly right. People would line up to take,
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: you know, to meet the presidential dog. And here here's
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: a little bit of a breakdown of the story of
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: this photograph, as it kind of like weaves into this
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: part of the story. So this guy by the name
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: of F. W. Ngmeier had a photo studio in Springfield,
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: and according to the original story, it was in late
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: eighteen sixty or early eighteen sixty one. There are actually
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: three shots of Fido, one nice from the front shot
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: and then two profile shots where he's a little bit
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: more kind of hunkered down, like he's swimming in a
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: he's trying to ford a stream of some kind, right.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: And the exposure makes them all look radically different.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. The one from the front is very
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: Cepia looking, and then there's another cpo looking one from
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: the side that is very high contrast, kind of like
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: what the background is totally white and you can't see
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: any texture, is almost blown out. Yeah, and then the
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: last one, which I think is by far the most
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: successful of the photographs. Aesthetically, you can see that the
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: wall has kind of a shaded shadow you look to it,
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: and the dog's fur is properly exposed, and you can
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: see the texture of the rug. And there's a lot
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: more detail in this one.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's also the fur is so detailed that it
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: almost looks like Fido might have some German shepherd in them.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: So ing Meyer fw Ngmeyer has also become the subject
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: of investigation, especially by a guy named Dick Hart in
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: his book Springfield, Illinois Nineteenth Century Photographers.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: But the problem is that apparently between eighteen sixty and
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: eighteen sixty one, Ingmeier wasn't didn't have a photography studio.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: He was actually working as a minister in the Baptist faith.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: I guess that was his weekend job. And then he
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: was also a sewing machine salesman.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was selling sewing machines and probably preaching on
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: the side as well. He ran a bunch of ads
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: in various papers for his sewing machine agency. But he
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: didn't even start paying for a photographer's license until eighteen
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: sixty two.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, a photographer's license.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: Uh huh. It was a different time.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: That seems yeah.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Wow. Well also it's a really new technology, so you
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: probably it's a new technology. You probably them just spitballing here. Man.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: You probably have to have some sort of training.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Safety training. They got those flash bulbs. They can take
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: your eye out of burn your fingers a bit best.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, new technology is always a pain. Have you
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: ever watched videos of someone attempting to start a model
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: t It's crazy? You can break your arm.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Well, I just would like to You got to like
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: pull it like a lawnmower.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: You have to crank it. Yeah, yeah, you have to
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: starting a chair a crank.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, that's crank.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: And if it gets cantankerous, it will fly back with
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: such force that will break.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Your fork kick at you. Wow.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: So probably I would like to think take it a
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: photograph was not that dangerous or didn't have that possibility
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: for danger, But you had to have some training. And
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: what you brought up here is really important because we're
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: looking again at the timeline. So that's eighteen sixty two, right.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: That's right. That is allegedly when he began to pay
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: for this license and installments I'm imagining, and that's that's
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: ten dollars total for the license, which was you know,
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: a pretty penny back in eighteen sixty.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Two, and he first ran an ad for his photography
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: business in October of eighteen sixty four because there were
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: a lot of soldiers passing through nearby Camp Butler. It's
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: important to say that this chronology of the license and
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: the advertisements, this chronology does not prove that Ingmar did
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: not take those pictures of this pooch in eighteen sixty
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: or eighteen sixty one, but it calls it into question,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: you know, that's right.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: And this is all from a fantastic post, you know,
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: speculating on this chronology, because again a lot of this
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: stuff is just that speculation, but it comes from a
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: pretty solid source, the guy by the name of doctor
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: James Cornelius, who's the curator of that Abraham Lincoln collection
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: at the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum. So if
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: anyone knows he got to know.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's the leading expert. Literally, he sold a matched
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: set Ingmar that is, sold a match set of four
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: photos with identical back marks, which are think of it, likenk.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: You may have seen your parents do this. Writing on
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: the back of a photograph with the name and date,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: the time or description.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like like a time code that you would
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: see cameras these days. Actually, well not so much, but
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: like they used to be when you get the prints,
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: maybe that annoying little watermark in the bottom left hand
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: corner that was the time and the day. There's something
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: kind of similar, if not more analog at play here.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, exactly. And in this book that we mentioned
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: by Heart, there's this match set of four photographs that
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Ingmar sold with these back marks, and in the Heart
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: book they're dated back to eighteen sixty five and eighteen
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: sixty six. The fotographs are the following. A hillside tomb
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: in Oak Ridge Cemetery, a photograph of Lincoln's old home.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Photograph of a horse known as Old Bob, which I
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: think is a cool horse name.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Is that the same as old Robin? Is that short
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: for it? Because I've seen it both ways? You have
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: two horses, because Rob could be short for Bob, could
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: be short for Robin, Bob could be short for yeah, yeah,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: because Robin is I don't know. The photograph that I'm
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: seeing is actually captioned President Lincoln's horse Old Robin.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: It's gotta be the same horse, because I've seen the
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: same photograph and then I'm looking at the description from
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: doctor Cornelius. So maybe doctor Cornelis is just so familiar
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: with him that he calls him old Bob, Oh Bob. Yeah,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: he's spent a lot of time researching this.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: Also in the photograph, might maybe they were more formal,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: you know, that was the that was the horse's Christian name.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: But if you were familiar, you could call him old Bob.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: But most importantly, that fourth photograph is the high quality
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: profile snap a fighto.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: And you know these look like ben These look like
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: the kinds of postcards you would buy at a gift
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: shop for like the Grand Canyon or President Abraham Lincoln's
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: boyhood home or what have you. Right, Yeah, So the
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: theory here is that no, these photos were not commissioned
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: by Lincoln himself during his life. They were done as
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: a kind of get rich quick scheme by this guy
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: Ingmeyer when Lincoln's death brought droves of mourners and people
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: paying their respects to Springfield.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: So why do we believe doctor Cornelius's a version of
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: the events. Well, that's primarily because he has matched times
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: and dates into a single unified chronology, and the story
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: about Lincoln commissioning the photographs actually comes to us through
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: John Roll primarily. And you can't really We're not saying
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: role is lying, but it's very easy for him to
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: be mistaken. You can't really blame someone for getting the
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: details of a dog picture a little bit off, you know,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: decades and decades later.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: I have heard of worse historical blunders, my friend.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: Right, So doctor Cornelius finds a kicker a nail in
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: the chronological coffin. Here he says that if the Lincoln boys,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Tad and Willie had a photograph of Fido in the
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: White House, why does it not have that same back mark,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: the mark that Ingmeier used to distinguish his photographs, right,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: why doesn't have one from eighteen sixty to eighteen sixty one.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: The thing is, the one surviving copy today is identical
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: to the images from eighteen sixty five in both the
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: label and the back mark that indicates the provenance of
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: the photo. If someone took a photo of Fido for
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: the boys in eighteen sixty one, why would it have
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: needed the label President Lincoln's Dog. You can find the
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: family's photo album today in the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Museum or apple Plum. That's the acronym that is, that's
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: a literal mouthful of word salad. Yeah, but you can
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: you know, you can find the photo album today and
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: it doesn't have all of the photos. About half of
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: them are missing, but the other half are in the
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Lincoln Financial Foundation collection in Fort Wayne, Indiana. And so
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: to Cornelius, to doctor Cornelius, all of this evidence points
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: to the photo being taken in eighteen sixty five.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: I think had some good detective work there from the
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: good doctor.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: I agree. He is the Sherlock Holmes of Abraham Lincoln
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: Dog Photos. Dog photos. Yeah, guys, you might be saying, look,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: I get it, the dog picture was probably made in
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: six not sixty one. But for Pete's sake, for Fido's sake,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: can't you just let me enjoy a cute picture of
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: a doggo?
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean seriously, it was like one of the
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: original dogo memes. But also, you know, we really did
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: spend a lot of time talking about those pictures. I'm
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: fascinated by the whole the mystery of it. And then
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: when things make their way into official accounts, that then
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: proved to not be the case. But this story does
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: take an interesting turn. Dare I say, a pretty sad
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: turn for old Fido.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're right. So obviously it's a national tragedy
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: when Abraham Lincoln is assassinated and it turns out that
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Fido also met an unfortunate end. In eighteen sixty six,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: about a year after Lincoln's assassination, Fido, again very much
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: a dog of the people, never met a person he
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: didn't like. Fido is walking along, minding his own business,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: and he sniffs across somebody who appears to be sleeping
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: on the sidewalk.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: I thought you were going to say, sniff's a crotch
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: of someone who appeared to be sleeping on the side.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Possibly both. I bet you. I bet you if you
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: if a friendly dog met Union, didn't move, the first
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: thing you would do is sniff your body.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: He wants to be sure if you're cool. But this
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: guy was not cool, As it turns out, there's a
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: couple of accounts of the story, conflicting accounts. We'll go
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: with the most sensationalized, depressing account, which is that first
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: that is, which is that this intoxicated gentleman, this roused
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: about this. This kind of delinquent guy woke from his
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: drunken stupor and stabbed the dog, you know, to death
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: with a knife.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: In a panic, right attacked. Yeah, well the yeah.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: And I've even seen it was even written up that
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: it was more malicious that he was just like in
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: his drunken rage. Should probably read that when actually it
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: was a letter that came from the caretaker of the dog.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, in nineteen fifty four, John Roll, the caretaker of
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Fido himself, laid the following information to Time magazine.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, so more of an interview than a letter, But
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: here we go. I didn't realize this came so late
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: in the game. He must have been quite old.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: So you can see how he could get some facts wrong. Yeah.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: So, but the way he tells it is a little
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: bit more. This is the most malicious account of this guy.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: He says, quote, we possessed the dog for a number
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: of years until one day the dog, in a playful manner,
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: put his dirty paws. There's dirty paws again upon a
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: drunken man sitting on the street curbing, which I think
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: that means like whittling, and in a drunken rage, thrust
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: his knife into the body of poor old Fido. So Fido,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: just a poor yellow dog, met the same fate as
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: his illustrious master assassination.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: So that's that's the most sensationalized version. But as as
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: we've established earlier, that may not be entirely accurate, and
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: even today people disagree on the specifics. We're talking about
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: this guy right who's on the street whittling his pine
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: stick or whatever, but we haven't given him a name yet.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: No, we haven't. And that's the thing about the way
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: these kinds of stories get passed around. It's really easy
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: to want to demonize the man who murdered Abe Lincoln's
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: old yelled mongrel dog in the streets in a drunken rage,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: but a little less cut and dry when you actually
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: realize that there was a human here with the story.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Another spin on the story that you can find comes
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: from a story in the Illinois State Journal from eighteen
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: ninety three, and here is a quote from that that
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: also gives some pretty pretty sad details to the end
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: of old Fido's life, whichever way he ultimately went, whether
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: by force or by accident. Quote, he Fido was exceedingly
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: friendly and had a habit of showing his congeniality by
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: depositing his muddy yellow four paws plump on the breast
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: of any who addressed him familiarly.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: Oh, and you can't yell at him for his pause.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another one of Lincoln's conditions to the role family. Hm.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: I continue. His excessive friendliness eventually caused his death in
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: a very unique way, and that Fido suffered the fate
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: of his master assassination. The dog, which was a yellow
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: fellow of moderate size, ran against Charlie Plank, who was
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: whittling a stick with a sharp, long bladed knife. By
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: an accidental move while the dog was expressing himself in caresses,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: the blade was buried deep in his body. He shot
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: out the door like a flash and was never seen
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: again alive. Apparently it was a week or more before
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: they found his body a month. Yeah, behind the old
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: chimney stack of the Universalist Church there in Springfield.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: So he got stabbed and ran in fear, right, That is.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: What animals tend to do when they are mortally wounded.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: They want to go die alone. I think a house
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: or something.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: And I think humans qualify as animals. It's true that part.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Charlie Plank's story doesn't end with this murder of Fido.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: We know a little bit more about him. He had
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: a couple of other encounters with law enforcement after he
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: was Oh, we didn't mention it. He was a veteran, Yeah,
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: that's right. He was a veteran of the Civil War.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: He was a member of Company G of the one
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: hundred and fourteenth Illinois Infantry Regiment, which was considered a
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: pretty illustrious company if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, And we
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: know that he had been beaten and robbed by two
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: men on North seventh Street in eighteen sixty five. We
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: know he got in an argument with a guy named
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Peter Burns in eighteen sixty eight, ending the argument by
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: drawing a revolver with small shot and shooting Burns in
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: the shoulder. Again, it was a different time he also
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: got He also was involved in a court case. Burns
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: was fined at the sum of three dollars quote for
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: using language to Charles playing calculated to provoke a breach
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: of the peace. Language you say fighting words. Oh my goodness,
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: I said, you wastrel, you dunderhead astrel? Is that like
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: a wasskly rabbit. It's a wasteful or good for nothing person.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: As that must have fallen out of popularity. I don't
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: know that one.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: So we know what roughly happened to Plank. He had
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: his up seat, his downs. He had been in some
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: legal altercations. He moved to Michigan, eventually worked as a
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: clerk and expressman, and passed away in March of nineteen seventeen.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: He is buried on the grounds of the Grand Rapids
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: Veteran Home. Now, this sounds like it's all ending on
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: a downer, but this is that's not the case, because
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: when we look at Fido, you know what it reminds
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: me of. It reminds me of how Max the gorilla
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: in South Africa grabbed such attention and locked into the zeitgeist.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: The photography is a relatively new medium. People love animals.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: There's a picture of an animal that is published and
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: syndicated papers across the nation.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: People are against stabbing animals.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Thank God, generally speaking.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's part of the story. I didn't know, though.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: I knew about Fido, and I knew he was Abe
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Lincoln's old yellow mongrel best friend for life. I didn't
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: know that that kind of more melancholy part of the story.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: So it's interesting. But yeah, and to this day, I mean,
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: like you said, Fido equals dog, like Xerox equals you know, photocopy.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Right right right? Or Google equals Internet.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Search you mean WebCrawler. What are you talking about Google?
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: What are the other ones? There's Prodigy like yeah, and uh,
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: you know lactose and that's a different that's a different
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: thing entirely. You might still have your AOL CDs friends
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: and neighbors.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: I keep a stack of them to use as coasters
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: and just to hand out to people as party gifts
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: when they come by the house.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: I always love to frisbee though, huh. Me and my
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: old dog would would frisbee those things.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: Oh, man, tell us about your old dog.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: It's too soon, man, really yeah.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Wow, A beloved pet.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: A beloved pet, very much. So I love pets and
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: we hope you do too. Yes, Fido became the world's
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: most famous dog for a.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Time because I think of a more famous one.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Because mass media was going out.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: Let's see, how was that one they shot into space? Right?
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: H you make that up? No, the Russian dog and
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: then there though I can't remember, we can find it.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: His name is on record, and we should do a
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: thing on animals in space. But spoiler, there are a
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: couple of doubters, and.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: That especially if you're again like you should be against
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: animal cruelty.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: Right right, And so, although Fido's life ended too soon,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: he remains immortal as a symbol, the symbol, at least
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: in American English, for all things cannot He is the
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: quintessential I believe we used the word earlier, the quintessential
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: image of a faithful, friendly dog, a good boy, a good.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: Boy with b o ye it comes that good boy?
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: Aw Snap, what up?
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: What up?
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: Family show? Looking up for yourself.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: So here ends our story of the rise and fall
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: and immortal fame of the most famous presidential dog, the
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: frisky yellow Fido. But the story doesn't stop there, and
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: it doesn't stop with Fido. If you haven't checked it
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: out yet, do check out our community page Ridiculous Historians,
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: where I believe Noel. Was it you or was it
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: one of our fellow listeners who started that awesome threat about.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Past there's a cat thread. I think it's specifically about cats,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: and yeah, I posted a picture of my my good
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: boy bad boy. Really Ert Robert Fernando because he's, you know,
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: like I said at the top of the show, always
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: bringing creepy little tribute dismembered tribute. Yeah, I'm not a fan.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: He might be trying to teach you to hunt. Yeah,
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: but do let us know about the dogs in your life.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Send Casey and NOL and I some pictures, find us
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: some ridiculous historians. You can also find us on Instagram, Twitter,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: and Facebook, where we are Ridiculous History or some variation thereof.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: It's true and as always, thank you to our super
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: producer Casey Pegram, our super researcher Christopher Hasiotis and Alex
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: Williams who composed our banging theme.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: And super special thank you to our returning contributor Laurie L. Dove.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: We worked on a sound queue for you.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: Laurie. Here we go. I like that and please don't
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: forget to join us next time when we talk about
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: historical mooning.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: We were so proud of them.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's good. On. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.