Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / When Your Child Is Bullied, These 4 Steps Could Change Everything [with Prof. Donna Cross, Part 2]

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When Your Child Is Bullied, These 4 Steps Could Change Everything [with Prof. Donna Cross, Part 2] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:06
Speaker 1: On yesterday's Happy Families podcast, I had one of the
0:08
Speaker 1: most important and valuable conversations about bullying that I think
0:11
Speaker 1: we've ever had here on the pod. And we've talked
0:14
Speaker 1: about bullying quite a lot. Professor Donna Cross, who works
0:19
Speaker 1: now with the New South Wales Government and emeritus professor
0:22
Speaker 1: at the University of Western Australia, is talking to us
0:26
Speaker 1: about how we can help our kids if they are
0:29
Speaker 1: being bullied. Donna is the New South Wales Chief Behavior
0:33
Speaker 1: Advisor with the New South Wales Government, talking about how
0:36
Speaker 1: we can make prevention happen in schools to keep our
0:40
Speaker 1: kids safe. And today on the podcast we're going to
0:43
Speaker 1: talk about the ubiquity of bullying. I think it's pretty
0:45
Speaker 1: much everywhere. I'd be surprised if there's a single school
0:48
Speaker 1: where it's not happening, at least in some way. It's
0:51
Speaker 1: absolutely all over the place online, some kids are more
0:55
Speaker 1: likely to be bullied than others. And if your child
0:57
Speaker 1: is being bullied, today on the podcast we unpack what
1:01
Speaker 1: to do to help them to get through some of
1:04
Speaker 1: the hardest things that they will encounter as students. That's
1:08
Speaker 1: next stay with us. This is the Happy Families Podcast.
1:12
Speaker 1: Real parenting Solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
1:16
Speaker 1: I'm doctor Justin Coulson and today I'm joined once again
1:19
Speaker 1: a continuation of yesterday's conversation with Professor Donna Cross from
1:23
Speaker 1: the University of Wa. Donna, I gave the long bio yesterday.
1:27
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it today because there's just
1:29
Speaker 1: so much for us to discuss. Here's my first hard question.
1:33
Speaker 1: I'm going to start with the personal story. One of
1:35
Speaker 1: my daughters was bullied quite significantly during grade eight, so
1:39
Speaker 1: much so that after working with the school and not
1:41
Speaker 1: making any progress, we ended up taking her out of
1:43
Speaker 1: school and homeschooling her for about eighteen months before she finally,
1:46
Speaker 1: in grade ten, said I'm ready to go back. So
1:49
Speaker 1: we found another school and she's been doing quite well
1:52
Speaker 1: since then. I'm in schools on an almost daily basis,
1:56
Speaker 1: giving presentations for parents, often about resilience and anxiety, and
2:00
Speaker 1: from time to time bullying and the challenges around it.
2:04
Speaker 1: It's my belief that bullying exists in some form or
2:07
Speaker 1: another in pretty much every single school in this country.
2:11
Speaker 1: I'd love you to respond to that and tell me,
2:13
Speaker 1: am I right? Am I wrong? What are the prevalent
2:16
Speaker 1: stats like at a school by school basis.
2:19
Speaker 2: Really sadly, about fifty percent of Australian children report that
2:23
Speaker 2: they were bullied.
2:23
Speaker 3: At least once in the last year at school.
2:26
Speaker 1: That's astonishing, I mean an that's huge.
2:30
Speaker 3: It is certainly huge.
2:32
Speaker 2: And for some children it's an episode and it stops,
2:36
Speaker 2: but for other children, a small minority, about twenty percent
2:39
Speaker 2: of children, it continues over time, year after year. And
2:44
Speaker 2: really sadly, one of the biggest predictors of the likelihood
2:47
Speaker 2: have been bullied is if you've been bullied before.
2:50
Speaker 1: I wasn't aware of that stat That's that's really tough.
2:53
Speaker 1: So yesterday on the podcast, we talked about preventative factors,
3:00
Speaker 1: talked about protective factors, we talked about risk factors for
3:03
Speaker 1: children being bullied. Today, I want to get really focused
3:06
Speaker 1: on what to do if your child has been bullied,
3:09
Speaker 1: whether it's happening face to face or on one. Oh
3:11
Speaker 1: last time I looked at the stats, it seems that
3:14
Speaker 1: the face to face bullying happens more than online. Can
3:17
Speaker 1: you just confirm that for me or has that changed?
3:19
Speaker 2: No, certainly is much more prevalent, even though the media
3:23
Speaker 2: has kind of picked up on cyber bullying, and it
3:25
Speaker 2: gets a lot of attention. Up to about fifteen percent
3:29
Speaker 2: of young people report that they've been cyberbully to it
3:32
Speaker 2: in the last last twelve months.
3:34
Speaker 3: At a level that is that's hurt them to a degree.
3:39
Speaker 2: Probably nearly forty percent of kids will say something awful
3:42
Speaker 2: has happened online to them. But it's not necessarily bullying,
3:45
Speaker 2: but being bullied face to face, whether that be covert
3:49
Speaker 2: bullying or more overt pushing and hitting and so on,
3:52
Speaker 2: but being left out, having friends taking stuff from you,
3:56
Speaker 2: and being threatened. No, forty five fifty and of children
4:01
Speaker 2: sadly are reporting that, so it's still the most prevalent.
4:04
Speaker 2: But the two sit together. You know, some people have
4:06
Speaker 2: said that cyber bullying and face to face bullying is
4:10
Speaker 2: you know, same wine, different bottle, same please, different dog.
4:14
Speaker 3: You know, it's just a different way that it's delivered.
4:18
Speaker 1: So before we talk about what to do, what are
4:20
Speaker 1: the signals, What are the things that a parent would
4:23
Speaker 1: be attuned to to identify that something's amiss and that
4:27
Speaker 1: bullying is happening in their child's life.
4:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's trick to pick up on because a lot
4:32
Speaker 2: of the changes that happen, you know, through late childhood
4:36
Speaker 2: going into adolescence are often related to changes related to.
4:39
Speaker 1: Adolescents and staying in their room all the time right
4:42
Speaker 1: exactly the.
4:43
Speaker 2: Moody you know, this distance from parents that are pushing away.
4:48
Speaker 2: Those kinds of things are hard for us to monitor,
4:51
Speaker 2: but just things to be mindful of. More children are
4:54
Speaker 2: bullied around year four, so ten eleven years of age,
4:58
Speaker 2: and any other time in their life, So that's an
5:01
Speaker 2: important queue for parents to be kind of watching their
5:03
Speaker 2: children around this age. And of course all that we're
5:05
Speaker 2: going to talk about shortly needs to be delivered well
5:08
Speaker 2: before children are in year four, but don't if you're
5:11
Speaker 2: children older than that, there's still things to do to
5:13
Speaker 2: support them. The next big increase in bullying happens through
5:18
Speaker 2: transition from primary school to high school, and this smooth
5:22
Speaker 2: of the transition are less likely the bullying. But where
5:26
Speaker 2: we as a school structure muck up friendship groups and sadly,
5:31
Speaker 2: as a result, when children move into our high school environment,
5:34
Speaker 2: those children who are bullied kind of reassert the social
5:37
Speaker 2: hierarchies within the school. So when we think about and
5:41
Speaker 2: what should we be watching for, first of all, we
5:43
Speaker 2: need to watch developmentally, what are the changes we see
5:45
Speaker 2: within our children. We need to know our children really well,
5:48
Speaker 2: and we need to know their friends as best we can,
5:51
Speaker 2: as much as we're allowed to. So having friends over
5:54
Speaker 2: to your home is a great way to see how
5:56
Speaker 2: your children relate to their friends, so that you can
5:59
Speaker 2: then observe those friendship changes. If that same person who
6:03
Speaker 2: is their best friend isn't coming over anymore, and maybe
6:05
Speaker 2: your child's spending much more time alone, maybe they're doing
6:08
Speaker 2: things online where you can hear them, where they're touching
6:11
Speaker 2: their keyboard in angry ways and then coming.
6:13
Speaker 3: Away being in a very sad mood.
6:17
Speaker 2: Those are the kinds of indicators in amongst all that
6:21
Speaker 2: beautiful change that's happening at adolescents, to help you notice
6:26
Speaker 2: those social changes and emotional changes and often physical changes,
6:31
Speaker 2: not sleeping, you know, having difficulty eating would be some
6:35
Speaker 2: key cues.
6:44
Speaker 1: Let's say we identify either because our child tells us,
6:47
Speaker 1: or because we're attentive enough and somehow the signals allowed
6:50
Speaker 1: enough that we can identify that our child is being bullied.
6:54
Speaker 1: What are the appropriate action steps? This is so complicated,
6:57
Speaker 1: isn't it. I Mean we've seen news stories where parents
6:59
Speaker 1: have gone into school and had some things to say
7:02
Speaker 1: to the bully, to the student who's harming their child.
7:05
Speaker 1: Obviously that's not a good option. But what are the options?
7:08
Speaker 1: What do you see as being the most effective?
7:12
Speaker 3: And such a good question, Thanks so much for asking. Justin.
7:14
Speaker 2: We ran a study that was called keeping in Touch,
7:17
Speaker 2: and we conducted this study because we found that the
7:20
Speaker 2: majority of children in our research that when we asked
7:23
Speaker 2: them if they were bullied, did they tell someone?
7:26
Speaker 3: Boys almost told no one.
7:28
Speaker 2: Less than ten percent of boys said they told somebody
7:31
Speaker 2: if they were bullied, and about a quarter of girls
7:33
Speaker 2: said that they told somebody when they're being bullied.
7:36
Speaker 3: So a lot of kids aren't telling.
7:38
Speaker 2: And we then answer them, why, you know, what is
7:41
Speaker 2: it that adults are doing so wrong that you're not
7:44
Speaker 2: trusting us to come and tell us when these things
7:46
Speaker 2: are messy, or that you're telling us really late when
7:48
Speaker 2: it's scott it's so difficult to address. And they said
7:52
Speaker 2: that there are four things that we don't do well.
7:55
Speaker 2: And we've put these four things into a model just
7:58
Speaker 2: a way to remember a bit of a rubrie. I
8:00
Speaker 2: use this all the time, and the model that we
8:03
Speaker 2: remember I remember is called late.
8:05
Speaker 3: So lat that L part is that we don't listen
8:10
Speaker 3: very well. According to the.
8:11
Speaker 2: Kids, they say, we hear a bit of what's going on,
8:14
Speaker 2: and then we take over immediately. We don't ask more questions,
8:18
Speaker 2: like tell me more about who was there, what happened,
8:20
Speaker 2: So maybe it would happen at the bus stop.
8:23
Speaker 3: You know who else was at the bus stop? Where
8:25
Speaker 3: their teachers there?
8:26
Speaker 2: So that really deeply understanding the situation and giving your
8:31
Speaker 2: children time to tell their story without rushing in.
8:35
Speaker 3: So that's the L part.
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Speaker 2: The A is that they say, we often are quick
8:40
Speaker 2: to get to the solution without recognizing that it really
8:44
Speaker 2: is hurting them. And so they said, the second stage
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Speaker 2: is acknowledge that it hurts. So they want to hear
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Speaker 2: us say something like that sounds really tough, just giving
8:54
Speaker 2: them a moment where you show you believe in them
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Speaker 2: and you believe what's happened and you appreciate it's difficult.
9:00
Speaker 2: They said, we often say things like and I know
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Speaker 2: I've said this, so you know I say it with
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Speaker 2: great shame.
9:05
Speaker 3: I don't worry. There's plenty of other people you can
9:07
Speaker 3: play with. And they said, that just shows.
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Speaker 2: We completely don't get you know what is so important
9:13
Speaker 2: to them and having those friends around them. So that's
9:15
Speaker 2: the second step. Acknowledge that it hurts. That sounds really tough.
9:18
Speaker 2: The third stage, is it Okay if I go through
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Speaker 2: all these.
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Speaker 1: Stages, just oh, totally, this is so valuable. I've got
9:23
Speaker 1: I've got a couple of questions and things that I
9:25
Speaker 1: want to pick up on comments about each of them.
9:27
Speaker 1: But let's let's go through the lat acronym first, because
9:29
Speaker 1: I think this is so valuable.
9:31
Speaker 3: Okay.
9:32
Speaker 2: So the third step is to talk about options. That's
9:35
Speaker 2: what the tea is about. So here children told us
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Speaker 2: that often as parents are as teachers, we rush in
9:42
Speaker 2: with okay, the first thing we're going to do when
9:44
Speaker 2: go to the school and we're going to talk to
9:45
Speaker 2: your head of house, and we're going to go and
9:47
Speaker 2: see the principal. And the kids just go, oh my goodness,
9:49
Speaker 2: this is so out of control, and they get really
9:51
Speaker 2: frightened and they're shut down. Instead, they said, what they'd
9:55
Speaker 2: like to see here is that you get a chance
9:58
Speaker 2: to talk about what they could do where they have
10:00
Speaker 2: some autonomy and control. And even for younger children, this
10:04
Speaker 2: is still helpful because you're building in them a self
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Speaker 2: confidence that there are things I can do here versus
10:10
Speaker 2: that learned helplessness. Someone's just going to come in and
10:12
Speaker 2: fix it for me, which at the time that might
10:14
Speaker 2: be helpful, but it's not helping them long term. We're
10:17
Speaker 2: not building resilience. So here you might ask questions like,
10:21
Speaker 2: tell me what you tried, how did that work? Who
10:25
Speaker 2: else has tried that? Does it work for them? What
10:28
Speaker 2: have you seen other children doing in this situation? Could
10:31
Speaker 2: you do that? So really pushing them to think about
10:34
Speaker 2: from their own ideas, and then if they're really stuck,
10:37
Speaker 2: and many times I've done this with children, They've got
10:39
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know what I can do,
10:42
Speaker 2: and then you can ask them questions like, well, when
10:45
Speaker 2: this happened to me, I tried blah, only one thing
10:48
Speaker 2: at a time. Let them know I couldn't do that. Okay,
10:51
Speaker 2: I've seen somebody else do blah. Do you think that
10:53
Speaker 2: would work? And giving them time to process and really
10:56
Speaker 2: feel like I'm in control here. And then the last
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Speaker 2: I wasn't coming to. The last E is for end
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Speaker 2: with encouragement and hear children, particularly Australian children. I worked
11:09
Speaker 2: in the US for five years and this isn't so
11:11
Speaker 2: true for American children, but for Australian children, they don't
11:14
Speaker 2: want to be winges and they say, you know, I've
11:17
Speaker 2: told this to someone. I don't want to come back
11:20
Speaker 2: and tell it again because you just think I'm complaining
11:22
Speaker 2: or that I'm winging about this issue. And so what
11:26
Speaker 2: we need to do as adults is to say, look.
11:29
Speaker 3: This will get better. It's really tough now, but you
11:32
Speaker 3: know what I'm around.
11:33
Speaker 2: So as a parent, let's talk about this after school tomorrow,
11:36
Speaker 2: let's go for a walk and have a chat and
11:38
Speaker 2: so on. Or as a teacher, I'm on duty on Wednesdays,
11:41
Speaker 2: come and have a chat with me, or come to
11:42
Speaker 2: my office next Wednesday and let me know how this
11:45
Speaker 2: is going. So it's really leading the door open to
11:47
Speaker 2: have more conversations. And I guess the most important issue
11:51
Speaker 2: when you're having this conversation with children, especially with boys,
11:54
Speaker 2: is don't sit opposite them them at a table and
11:58
Speaker 2: look them in the eyes, walk with them shouldered shoulder,
12:01
Speaker 2: have conversations in the car shouldered shoulder where you're sort
12:05
Speaker 2: of on the journey with them, and they'll feel much
12:08
Speaker 2: more comfortable and you'll probably get a much more in
12:10
Speaker 2: depth conversation than straight across the table and very intense.
12:14
Speaker 1: Donald, I love the acronym when you talk about listening.
12:17
Speaker 1: There's something that I always say to parents that is,
12:19
Speaker 1: you want to take the ride, not the wheel. Don't
12:21
Speaker 1: take over. And the other thing that really stood out
12:23
Speaker 1: to me is the acknowledgment that it hurts that line,
12:26
Speaker 1: why don't you just coupl over someone else. It's like
12:27
Speaker 1: parents have forgotten that playground dynamics don't really allow for that.
12:33
Speaker 1: But here's my question for you. I reckon there'll be
12:35
Speaker 1: a lot of parents who will listening to this conversation
12:38
Speaker 1: and thinking themselves, I've done it. I've done all of this.
12:41
Speaker 1: I've had so many tear field conversations with my kids
12:44
Speaker 1: where I've listened, I've felt that hurt with them, and
12:47
Speaker 1: we've talked about the pain. We've come up with different options.
12:50
Speaker 1: We've tried to organize play dates. We've done this, that
12:52
Speaker 1: and the other. We've even intervened with the school and
12:54
Speaker 1: asked them to help. I've had them come back to
12:57
Speaker 1: me with all the encouragement of the world, knowing that
12:59
Speaker 1: they're safe to talk to me if it comes up again,
13:01
Speaker 1: and it just keeps happening. We are in a toxic
13:05
Speaker 1: mess when it comes to bullying in my child. What
13:09
Speaker 1: hope can you offer there? How do we help that
13:12
Speaker 1: parent who just feels like escalating at the school hasn't worked.
13:16
Speaker 1: And all the conversations that they've had walking up and
13:19
Speaker 1: down the beach or down to the park, or up
13:20
Speaker 1: and down the street, or just in the bedroom and
13:22
Speaker 1: living room, it hasn't gone anywhere.
13:24
Speaker 2: And that's always a challenge with bullying because it is
13:27
Speaker 2: so complex, and as we've talked about, you know, in
13:30
Speaker 2: this podcast and the previous one, you know, there are
13:32
Speaker 2: so many elements that affect that, but there are some
13:35
Speaker 2: actions parents can take in addition to all that. When
13:37
Speaker 2: you reach that moment you peo, well what else can
13:39
Speaker 2: I do here? We know that the incident that's occurring
13:43
Speaker 2: right now is awful and we need to help our
13:46
Speaker 2: children get through that as best we can. But as
13:48
Speaker 2: you used in your example justin you know, sometimes it
13:51
Speaker 2: takes a bit of time to build the strength back
13:54
Speaker 2: up in your children to give them the skills. And
13:57
Speaker 2: the research around social and emotional skill development and its
14:02
Speaker 2: impact on all outcomes for children, the academic outcomes, well
14:06
Speaker 2: being outcomes, but particularly the bullying outcomes. So give me
14:10
Speaker 2: practice in how I deal with a situation where I
14:14
Speaker 2: feel really anxious. So it's something known as social inoculation theory,
14:19
Speaker 2: and it says, give me practice, set up little scenarios
14:23
Speaker 2: where I get practicing coming up with the right words,
14:26
Speaker 2: almost like a little literacy, a little bag of ideas
14:29
Speaker 2: about what I can say when I'm in this situation again,
14:32
Speaker 2: what I can do that will help me get out
14:35
Speaker 2: of a bit more easily than I did last time,
14:38
Speaker 2: And talk to children about It's about progress. I might
14:41
Speaker 2: start playing a sport and not be very good at
14:43
Speaker 2: it when I start, but if I practice and I
14:46
Speaker 2: go away and build skill, then I'm better at that
14:49
Speaker 2: sport each time.
14:50
Speaker 3: And these social emotional learning skills are skills. And there's
14:54
Speaker 3: lots of good.
14:55
Speaker 2: Resource online and no doubt you'll post some in that
15:00
Speaker 2: you put out on this podcast, but really great one
15:03
Speaker 2: on one practices for children to develop skills like being
15:06
Speaker 2: self aware? What are my triggers when that's happening?
15:09
Speaker 3: What do I do? What are things that can't be down?
15:11
Speaker 3: Do I go for a walk? Do I read?
15:13
Speaker 2: Do I talk to somebody when I'm in a conflict situation?
15:16
Speaker 2: What are the ways that I can diffuse that conflict
15:19
Speaker 2: and get away and know and practice those that I
15:23
Speaker 2: can use them much more effectively. How do I support
15:25
Speaker 2: my friends? Because bystanders, that witness who steps up for
15:29
Speaker 2: other people is much more likely to protected if somebody
15:33
Speaker 2: then targets them. So practicing those skills are critical to
15:37
Speaker 2: really helping get through that situation as best we can,
15:41
Speaker 2: and that but empowering our children so that they have
15:43
Speaker 2: a resource to draw on.
15:45
Speaker 1: Next time, I have a provocation to run by you,
15:50
Speaker 1: and I still don't quite know where I sit with it.
15:54
Speaker 1: My provocation is this, when it comes to the idea
15:57
Speaker 1: of changing schools, one of the difficulties that you have
16:00
Speaker 1: is that you take yourself with you when you go.
16:03
Speaker 1: And so if you have those differences, if you have
16:06
Speaker 1: those vulnerabilities where you are more likely to be bullied,
16:12
Speaker 1: the likelihood is that wherever you go, it may still happen. Now,
16:16
Speaker 1: I know that there are many stories that people will
16:17
Speaker 1: share where they've moved schools and it's made all the difference.
16:20
Speaker 1: So I'm really tentative here. Maybe it is just a
16:22
Speaker 1: case by case thing. But for those parents who are
16:24
Speaker 1: desperate and thinking I've I've got to send the kids
16:27
Speaker 1: to a different school. What's your advice.
16:30
Speaker 2: It's always an option, of course, and it sometimes can
16:34
Speaker 2: be the issue that diffuses if it's a particular subgroup
16:38
Speaker 2: of children, and maybe it's a cohort.
16:40
Speaker 3: Sometimes we just get a cohort of.
16:41
Speaker 2: Young people moving through the school that are just really
16:44
Speaker 2: poorly behaved, and taking your children out of that cohort
16:48
Speaker 2: can break break that cycle. But we need to be
16:51
Speaker 2: mindful that cyberbullying means that some children have followed the
16:56
Speaker 2: bullying follows them to wherever they go. So I know
16:59
Speaker 2: we haven't talked about cyberbullying and what parents can do
17:02
Speaker 2: to really help their children with that. But as children
17:05
Speaker 2: move to a new school, that new school needs to
17:07
Speaker 2: be very aware of what happened in the previous school.
17:10
Speaker 2: And there are actions that schools will take. I'll call
17:13
Speaker 2: them Tier two actions, so kind of early intervention stuff,
17:16
Speaker 2: extra things that they can do with that student, like
17:19
Speaker 2: helping them to integrate into clubs, helping them to make
17:22
Speaker 2: friends much more quickly so that they have all those
17:24
Speaker 2: protective factors around them, engauge them in activities, and schools
17:29
Speaker 2: are really good at this. We just need to make
17:31
Speaker 2: sure they're aware, and sometimes we don't tell the next
17:33
Speaker 2: school all the details, and that may put your children
17:38
Speaker 2: at a disadvantage because schools do help and do want
17:41
Speaker 2: to help.
17:42
Speaker 1: Donna, I feel like stopping the conversation now is such
17:45
Speaker 1: an injustice. I think we need about seventeen more hours,
17:48
Speaker 1: maybe seventeen more days. But can I thank you so
17:51
Speaker 1: much for being so generous and so helpful with what
17:53
Speaker 1: you've shared today.
17:55
Speaker 3: Thanks very much, that's such a privilege.
17:57
Speaker 1: Professor Donacross, an emeritus professor at the University of Western
18:01
Speaker 1: Australia and the New South Wales Chief Behavior Advisor, will
18:06
Speaker 1: link to some of Donna's resources and a whole lot
18:09
Speaker 1: more in our show notes. The Happy Families podcast is
18:12
Speaker 1: produced by Justin Ruhland from Bridge Media, Mimhammond's supports with
18:16
Speaker 1: admin and research help. If you'd like more info and
18:19
Speaker 1: more resources, we will link to a whole range of
18:22
Speaker 1: Donna's material and a whole lot more about how to
18:25
Speaker 1: deal with and respond to bullying, and you can also
18:28
Speaker 1: visit Happyfamilies dot com dot au