Latest / Mahon McCann / Paula Kelleher - From Feminism to Faith: Why I Became Catholic

Transcript

Paula Kelleher - From Feminism to Faith: Why I Became Catholic · Mahon McCann

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Paula,
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thank you very much for joining me today to come on the podcast
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and tell us a bit
0:07
of your story and talk about probably about women in the church
0:10
and about what the
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SPEAKER_00: church can do for women and maybe why it's,
0:13
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: what needs it's not meeting at the moment.
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SPEAKER_00: But yeah, first of all, I suppose you were raised as a Catholic.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03: So, yeah.
0:22
SPEAKER_03: Thanks for having me.
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SPEAKER_03: It's lovely to be here.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
0:24
SPEAKER_03: So I was kind of born into a typical Irish Catholic family.
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SPEAKER_03: So we would have gone to mass like every weekend.
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SPEAKER_03: Usually we went on Saturday evenings.
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SPEAKER_03: Went to like a normal school.
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SPEAKER_03: So made all the did all the sacraments.
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but I would say like faith was never really kind of a central
0:45
point of our family
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like it was never really discussed or really kind of openly
0:49
practiced at home I
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suppose we just kind of did all the things that you're supposed
0:52
to do and it kind
0:54
of never really went much further than that so I suppose when I
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was young and I
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SPEAKER_03: yeah like I didn't really have much of a faith even you know and kind of
1:04
SPEAKER_03: when I was a kid,
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SPEAKER_03: maybe I didn't have much of a faith and even in a teen,
1:08
SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: I,
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SPEAKER_03: I never didn't believe in,
1:10
SPEAKER_03: I always believed in something,
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SPEAKER_03: but I didn't think it was like,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: Jesus or like our Christian faith.
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SPEAKER_03: So, um, yeah, so kind of a typical, you know, Irish Catholic upbringing.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: Fair, fair.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: it wasn't,
1:25
SPEAKER_00: you were doing the stuff,
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SPEAKER_00: but not necessarily like,
1:28
SPEAKER_00: uh,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: it was a huge,
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SPEAKER_00: huge part of your life.
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SPEAKER_00: Um,
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Yeah,
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you're kind of doing it,
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but you don't know why,
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like,
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you know,
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yeah.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, okay.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's what I hear from most people, to be fair.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: That seems to be the common factor.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so then, yeah, how did you progress?
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: because obviously you've ended up now,
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SPEAKER_00: you're practicing and you're more,
1:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: faith is very central in your life.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: When did that start changing for you, you know?
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SPEAKER_00: Did it come into play as you got older?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, tell us a bit about that.
1:59
Yeah so I suppose like just to kind of put my life into a bit
2:03
of context so like I
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moved abroad when I was 20 and I moved to first to Thailand and
2:09
I went teaching
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English and I suppose yeah like even around that age you know
2:14
and even growing up
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like I you know in my teens I lived a life very far from God
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you know drinking a
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SPEAKER_03: lot and taking drugs and
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um going to raves and doing all these things and just didn't
2:25
really you know had
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had no faith really but I always believed in like something but
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I didn't know what
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that was um and then when I moved to first to Thailand and this
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was just kind of
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getting introduced to like Buddhism and um other faiths and I
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was like oh maybe I'm
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SPEAKER_03: a Buddhist maybe this is what I've been looking for
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SPEAKER_03: Um,
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SPEAKER_03: but I was in Thailand for a few months and then I moved to Korea,
2:46
SPEAKER_03: um,
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SPEAKER_03: and then to Japan and then to China.
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Um,
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so,
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um,
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and even when I was living in Japan,
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I kind of got into like Vipassana meditation.
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SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you've heard of Vipassana.
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SPEAKER_00: So interesting.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: One of my previous guests, um, was a Vipassana meditation teacher.
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
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SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Like super into it.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh, yeah.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: That's really interesting.
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SPEAKER_00: And so you were practicing in Vipassana.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03: So I kind of did, um, two of the like 10 day silent retreats.
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SPEAKER_03: Um,
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SPEAKER_03: but I found like after the first one,
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SPEAKER_03: I could say maybe it was like a positive experience,
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SPEAKER_03: but after the second one,
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SPEAKER_03: about a year later,
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SPEAKER_03: I would say it was a very negative experience.
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and left me probably with a lot of psychological consequences
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afterwards that
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weren't dealt with yeah um so it's definitely very um this was
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kind of vulnerable
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for a while you know afterwards because you know when stuff
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comes up and then
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there's nowhere to take it and there's no way to you know like
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there's no like you
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don't invite Jesus into it like when memories or traumas or
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things are coming up
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SPEAKER_03: like you're just
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kind of left to your own devices or just like go back to the
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breath or whatever and
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it's just it's you know there's there's such an emptiness to it
4:00
that's what robert
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was saying as well yeah the people oftentimes like if you've
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had any issues or like
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you can't they won't even let you go in a lot of the time
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because it's just like
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it's going to be so it's going to bring up so much stuff but
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it's really uh yeah
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SPEAKER_00: risky um
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yeah absolutely and yeah there's very little kind of support I
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suppose um yeah
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afterwards during it you know you're able to kind of talk to
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whoever's leading it
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or whatever but I did it in Japan so I was kind of doing it
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through like a
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SPEAKER_03: translator and stuff as well which also wasn't um
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SPEAKER_03: you know, probably the best way of doing it.
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SPEAKER_03: But yeah, so definitely was left.
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SPEAKER_03: But I definitely had like an openness to religion.
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Even when I was in Korea,
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like I had several friends who were like Christian there.
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SPEAKER_03: And I used to,
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we used to kind of have like discussions together and we would
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talk about our
4:48
SPEAKER_03: faith.
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SPEAKER_03: And I was always really open to the idea of faith,
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SPEAKER_03: but I just didn't believe myself or I didn't know what I believed myself,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: but I always,
4:56
SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: I had friends who did believe and was always,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: very
4:59
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, like open-minded towards it.
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But I suppose when things kind of changed for me then was while
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I was living in China.
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SPEAKER_03: And I kind of had an encounter,
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SPEAKER_03: really,
5:11
SPEAKER_03: you know,
5:11
SPEAKER_03: it was a moment where I just knew that God existed.
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And it was just a moment where I just knew that there was life
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beyond Earth,
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SPEAKER_03: that there was like something more.
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SPEAKER_03: And I couldn't, you know, explain.
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SPEAKER_03: It was just like just a knowing just in a moment that I just knew.
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And so that was kind of the time then when like the seed of
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faith had been planted.
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But I,
5:38
so I was like,
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okay,
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I know God exists,
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but I don't know what that means.
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And was there anything like contextual around that particular
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moment or was it just
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SPEAKER_00: like out of nowhere?
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, were you like in prayer?
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SPEAKER_00: Were you kind of inviting?
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SPEAKER_00: I was just like, bam.
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SPEAKER_03: No, no.
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Yeah,
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I will say it was a very,
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you know,
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it was a very kind of intimate moment.
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SPEAKER_03: And it's something that I have had to reflect on a lot since.
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But it definitely wasn't like I wasn't searching for God,
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but also I suppose.
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in the situation that I was in like it was yeah God was very
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much in it you know
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looking back on it now even though I couldn't recognize that at
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the time so yeah so
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I suppose that was kind of the moment then I just knew that God
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existed and but
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SPEAKER_03: didn't like
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didn't even really pursue it or anything at that time and it's
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kind of then after I
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moved that was probably around 2021 I'd say and then yeah
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around 2022 then I left
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China and I moved back to Ireland and it was really I suppose
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coming back home that
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when I really started to kind of come into my faith and you
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know a lot of other
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things that had happened in my life that kind of led me to that
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and we can
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talk a bit about that but that's kind of yeah that was the
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moment I had an
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encounter and then kind of came back and then just started when
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I was in Ireland
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then just kind of started exploring the faith and bit by bit
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yeah so it sounds like
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you were kind of spiritual but not religious maybe before like
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you had definitely
7:08
spiritual tendencies but like you know organized I think
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oftentimes like eastern
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religions are good they seem like less organized kind of
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religions they're more
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SPEAKER_00: like practices or like psychotechnologies they're not a
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SPEAKER_00: so churchy, I suppose, as we feel sometimes in the West.
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SPEAKER_00: I probably would have been similar in terms of,
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SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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that that could be a good substitute religion for people that
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don't want to be
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SPEAKER_00: religious,
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SPEAKER_00: if that makes sense.
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SPEAKER_00: But then you have this experience of God and that kind of go,
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SPEAKER_00: then you go,
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SPEAKER_00: there's something,
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SPEAKER_00: was that something like beyond the kind of Eastern stuff you're with?
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Was it like,
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was it,
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did it have Christian overtones or was it just like God?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03: In general.
7:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I suppose so.
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SPEAKER_03: Just in this sense,
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it was just almost like a transcendent experience that I just
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felt like for a
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SPEAKER_03: moment,
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SPEAKER_03: I got a taste of what life beyond our mortal life is like.
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SPEAKER_03: And that's the only way that I can describe it.
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SPEAKER_03: And so the only like word for that, I guess, is God.
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SPEAKER_03: So and I suppose,
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SPEAKER_03: yeah,
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SPEAKER_03: it's just being like,
8:17
SPEAKER_03: you know,
8:18
SPEAKER_03: of you're coming from a Christian background.
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SPEAKER_03: That's, you know, what was happening.
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I suppose most most familiar but it didn't feel like I wasn't
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like oh I think
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that's Buddha or whatever or this is Nirvana or whatever you
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know I didn't have it
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in that context I just was like oh there's God is real and okay
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now I don't know
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what to do with that but that's kind of been the journey then
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over the past several
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SPEAKER_03: years so
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: that's so,
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SPEAKER_00: and when you're talking about transcendent experiences,
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SPEAKER_00: I suppose,
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SPEAKER_00: was it visual or was it experiential?
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, were you having like an out-of-body experience?
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Like,
8:53
it sounds like an experience of eternity or something like
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that,
8:56
like...
8:58
outside of the temporal realm I would say it was like a
9:01
physical yeah and it wasn't
9:05
just like yeah I visualized something like I could feel it like
9:08
my whole body just
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knew like yeah it was just like yeah I would say that was just
9:13
a moment that like
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SPEAKER_03: God just like
9:15
SPEAKER_03: touched my heart or made himself really known to me.
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SPEAKER_03: And like,
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SPEAKER_03: it was also,
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SPEAKER_03: it was like in a very beautiful way,
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SPEAKER_03: but also in a very,
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SPEAKER_03: very like,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
9:26
SPEAKER_03: very sinful way.
9:27
SPEAKER_03: And yeah.
9:28
So,
9:28
you know,
9:30
cause I was really living a life very far from God at that
9:33
time.
9:33
And even this experience is something like I've had to kind of
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like wrestle with
9:38
SPEAKER_03: and just kind of really explore like with like a spiritual director and
9:42
um in terms of like what what does this mean you know um and
9:47
yeah just kind of that
9:47
like god can meet us any place at any time and you know and
9:51
even i suppose that
9:52
experience has has led me you know on this path and even in
9:56
terms of um i suppose
9:58
where my my passions are even like the aspects of the faith
10:02
that i'm really
10:03
interested in or really passionate about it you know is all
10:05
kind of connected to
10:06
SPEAKER_03: this this experience as well so
10:09
It was a bit of a road to Damascus moment of like you were kind
10:12
of going the other
10:14
SPEAKER_00: way and then it was like,
10:15
SPEAKER_00: oh,
10:15
SPEAKER_00: OK.
10:16
Well,
10:17
I would say even at the time,
10:18
it was just like I knew that God existed,
10:20
but I didn't.
10:22
SPEAKER_03: It was it was kind of the start.
10:24
SPEAKER_03: And I suppose maybe knowing like the love of God.
10:27
But that was really the start of a journey and I had to go
10:30
through a really long
10:32
journey and a really painful journey of self-reflection and
10:39
taking accountability
10:39
SPEAKER_03: for things that had happened in the past.
10:42
SPEAKER_03: So that was the start of it, but it wasn't.
10:46
SPEAKER_03: It was a very bumpy road.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can't just live off the transcendent experience.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, find its way into your life and become kind of concrete in a way.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I mean, so then you come home to Ireland.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: Was that, and then I suppose you're like, okay, I was raised Catholic.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: Was that when it started, you kind of got interested in it?
11:09
SPEAKER_00: Like, did you think about other churches maybe?
11:11
SPEAKER_00: Or like, you know, what was that process like for you?
11:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
11:16
So I suppose when I came home and I came home and I had all
11:20
like I'd been gone for
11:21
SPEAKER_03: like 11 years,
11:22
SPEAKER_03: like most of my adult life,
11:24
SPEAKER_03: you know,
11:25
SPEAKER_03: like a third of my life.
11:26
SPEAKER_03: So it was really like,
11:27
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
11:27
like it's a long time that I was away and in vastly different
11:31
cultures from our
11:32
SPEAKER_03: own,
11:32
SPEAKER_03: you know.
11:34
SPEAKER_03: um, and coming back home.
11:35
And so I had all these plans of all these things that I was
11:37
going to do and all
11:38
SPEAKER_03: these different things that I was involved in.
11:40
SPEAKER_03: And I,
11:40
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
11:41
SPEAKER_03: so like,
11:41
SPEAKER_03: you know,
11:42
SPEAKER_03: I'd worked in,
11:43
SPEAKER_03: um,
11:43
SPEAKER_03: like fertility awareness and like cycle charting and like natural,
11:48
SPEAKER_03: um,
11:48
SPEAKER_03: avoiding pregnancy naturally and supporting couples to conceive,
11:52
SPEAKER_03: you know?
11:52
And,
11:53
um,
11:53
so this kind of areas,
11:55
you know,
11:55
work that I was really passionate in.
11:57
And so was like really kind of planning to just come home and
12:00
do all of this kind of stuff.
12:01
SPEAKER_03: Um,
12:02
then when i got home my dad got sick and um my dad passed away
12:07
a few months later
12:08
so that like obviously was just you know such a devastating
12:12
thing to go through um
12:14
and then along with like other things then that i had to that
12:18
stuff that kind of
12:19
had happened in the past that then came up that i had to deal
12:22
with and other stuff
12:23
SPEAKER_03: that i was dealing with like long-term relationship that had ended and um
12:28
and and many other things that were just kind of all going on
12:31
like at the same time
12:32
so I was really just found myself like just in like with the
12:37
whole like it was like
12:38
the rug was swept from underneath me like everything like the
12:41
work that I was doing
12:42
everything was gone um you know and obviously yeah I had to you
12:46
know lost lost my
12:47
SPEAKER_03: dad and um
12:49
SPEAKER_03: So yeah,
12:49
SPEAKER_03: it was a really difficult time,
12:53
SPEAKER_03: you know,
12:53
that you can imagine like going through something like losing a
12:56
parent or ending of
12:58
SPEAKER_03: a relationship or whatever that like,
13:00
SPEAKER_03: you know,
13:00
SPEAKER_03: but all of these things happened to me like at the same time.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: After you just moved home after 11 years.
13:07
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
13:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
13:09
SPEAKER_03: So it was rough.
13:11
SPEAKER_03: And I suppose,
13:12
but just kind of at the same time then that like seed of faith
13:15
had been planted and
13:16
I suppose I was exploring things bit by bit and even like
13:20
listening to like,
13:21
SPEAKER_03: you say like the biblical lectures by Jordan Peterson,
13:25
like that was a really big thing that I was listening to at the
13:27
time that really
13:27
SPEAKER_03: started to get me thinking.
13:30
SPEAKER_03: And yeah,
13:32
SPEAKER_03: so I suppose then,
13:33
and also just kind of maybe confiding in like other friends who
13:36
were in their
13:37
SPEAKER_03: faith,
13:37
SPEAKER_03: like not in the Catholic faith,
13:40
SPEAKER_03: just to kind of,
13:41
SPEAKER_03: you know,
13:43
SPEAKER_03: I feel like I believe in God,
13:45
SPEAKER_03: but I don't really know where to start.
13:47
SPEAKER_03: And I think like,
13:49
SPEAKER_03: and I started kind of going back to mass then as well,
13:51
SPEAKER_03: like not like every week,
13:53
SPEAKER_03: you know,
13:53
SPEAKER_03: whenever kind of I felt like it,
13:55
SPEAKER_03: I would go to mass.
13:56
SPEAKER_03: But at this,
13:56
SPEAKER_03: and then I started going to another church,
13:59
SPEAKER_03: like a non-denominational church here in Limerick as well.
14:03
SPEAKER_03: Because I suppose as well, I thought like,
14:06
okay,
14:06
like,
14:06
I believe in God and,
14:08
like,
14:08
but I don't think I'm a Catholic.
14:10
Even though I was raised a Catholic,
14:12
like,
14:12
I don't think that's for me,
14:13
you know?
14:13
Yeah,
14:14
and what would be,
14:16
why would you specifically be like,
14:17
yeah,
14:18
not the Catholic Church?
14:19
SPEAKER_00: Is it just too... I think it's just, you know, like, I'd grown up...
14:25
yeah like like growing up at that time like as you know
14:29
yourself I think we're like
14:30
similar age um that you know just I suppose I grew up in the
14:33
time of the scandals
14:34
like and you know that's that was what we grew up hearing about
14:37
the church so
14:38
everyone was kind of just I think my generation is kind of
14:41
disillusioned and just
14:42
like oh well I don't want anything to do with that like you
14:45
know or you know and
14:46
SPEAKER_03: also I would have been like the feminist and you know such a patriarchal
14:51
SPEAKER_03: institution and they just want to control our bodies and you know like
14:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, that definitely would be an obstacle for sure.
15:01
yeah but thanks be to God I've come out of that but you know
15:06
just those kind of you
15:08
know that's the standard I mean for a lot of people they're
15:10
still in that that
15:11
mindset like I would have been exactly the same like I suppose
15:14
from the male point
15:15
of view but still I probably would have made the same arguments
15:18
against it like
15:19
that the Catholic Church was like the evil empire man I used to
15:21
think it was like
15:22
Star Wars it was like Darth Vader like you know the evil you
15:27
know marching around
15:28
SPEAKER_00: in their uniforms uh
15:30
SPEAKER_00: So,
15:30
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
15:31
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
15:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm very excited to hear,
15:33
SPEAKER_00: I suppose,
15:33
SPEAKER_00: how you've changed in those,
15:35
SPEAKER_00: those ideas,
15:36
SPEAKER_00: but maybe,
15:37
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
15:37
SPEAKER_00: to pause on that,
15:38
SPEAKER_00: like what,
15:39
SPEAKER_00: so yeah,
15:39
SPEAKER_00: you're,
15:39
SPEAKER_00: you,
15:40
you tried out the non-denominational church maybe because you
15:42
were like the
15:42
SPEAKER_00: Catholic church,
15:43
SPEAKER_00: bad press seemed like,
15:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:45
SPEAKER_00: not,
15:47
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
15:47
SPEAKER_00: not,
15:48
SPEAKER_00: not the cool thing.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, or even just, yeah, done for maybe, um,
15:52
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it's the same.
15:54
SPEAKER_03: I think,
15:54
SPEAKER_03: like,
15:54
SPEAKER_03: even though,
15:55
SPEAKER_03: like,
15:56
SPEAKER_03: I was very familiar with Mass,
15:58
SPEAKER_03: but I still,
15:59
SPEAKER_03: like,
15:59
SPEAKER_03: didn't really understand it.
16:00
SPEAKER_03: And I suppose,
16:02
SPEAKER_03: you know,
16:02
SPEAKER_03: like,
16:02
SPEAKER_03: I probably would have went to Mass,
16:04
SPEAKER_03: like,
16:05
SPEAKER_03: most of my childhood and my teens,
16:07
SPEAKER_03: like,
16:07
SPEAKER_03: every week.
16:07
I don't think I ever actually really listened to the readings
16:11
or listened to the Gospel.
16:12
SPEAKER_03: Like,
16:13
SPEAKER_03: you know,
16:13
SPEAKER_03: it'd always just be sitting there just,
16:15
SPEAKER_03: like,
16:15
SPEAKER_03: looking around or just,
16:16
SPEAKER_03: like,
16:16
SPEAKER_03: when is this ending?
16:17
SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, I never actually really just even tried to, like,
16:21
listen to what was going on like I knew the prayers off by
16:24
heart but you're not
16:25
even really paying attention to like what you're saying um and
16:29
so yeah so even like
16:30
just and I suppose then the other thing you go into mass and
16:33
it's just like you
16:34
SPEAKER_03: kind of go in and then it's over and then you just go home and like
16:38
SPEAKER_03: There's no kind of and I like there's different churches will do,
16:43
SPEAKER_03: you know,
16:44
SPEAKER_03: might do like tea and coffee afterwards,
16:45
SPEAKER_03: you know,
16:46
SPEAKER_03: once a month or whatever.
16:46
SPEAKER_03: But it's not like it's not your typical thing,
16:49
SPEAKER_03: particularly in your like,
16:50
SPEAKER_03: you know,
16:51
SPEAKER_03: country parish church,
16:52
SPEAKER_03: even though I usually go to Mass or in Limerick City.
16:56
SPEAKER_03: But,
16:56
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
16:57
SPEAKER_03: so,
16:57
SPEAKER_03: you know,
16:58
you just kind of go in and you just kind of go in and you go
17:01
home and that's it.
17:02
SPEAKER_03: Whereas,
17:02
SPEAKER_03: like,
17:02
SPEAKER_03: so the other,
17:03
SPEAKER_03: like,
17:04
SPEAKER_03: non-denominational church that I started going to for a while,
17:07
SPEAKER_03: like,
17:07
SPEAKER_03: you go in and,
17:08
SPEAKER_03: like,
17:08
SPEAKER_03: people are like,
17:09
SPEAKER_03: hey,
17:09
SPEAKER_03: you know,
17:10
SPEAKER_03: and come have a coffee and they've got cookies.
17:13
SPEAKER_03: And, like, there's a real, there's more of a sense of community, I guess.
17:17
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
17:18
SPEAKER_03: And people are just like,
17:19
SPEAKER_03: you know,
17:19
SPEAKER_03: there's praise and worship and there's singing and there's,
17:22
SPEAKER_03: like,
17:23
um you know there's they're just like really you know trying to
17:26
like you know
17:27
people are really on fire actually for their faith they're like
17:30
and you can really
17:30
feel like the holy spirit is there so it's it's a different
17:33
experience than when
17:34
you kind of go to mass and it's like ritual and it's somber and
17:38
like it's all these
17:39
things you know these steps and you don't really know what
17:41
they're doing and blah
17:42
blah blah because you're not engaged with it like you haven't
17:45
been properly like
17:46
catechized or you know you don't understand what's going on in
17:49
the liturgy um
17:51
SPEAKER_03: and also people,
17:52
SPEAKER_03: you know,
17:52
SPEAKER_03: it's just kind of what people do,
17:54
SPEAKER_03: whatever,
17:54
SPEAKER_03: whereas you go to like the non-denominational churches,
17:56
SPEAKER_03: it's like people are there because they want to be there.
17:58
SPEAKER_03: You know, people are there because they love Jesus.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: Big difference atmosphere, isn't it?
18:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: Everybody's there because they want to be there.
18:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
18:07
SPEAKER_03: But, um,
18:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I was kind of going there for like a couple of months maybe.
18:11
SPEAKER_03: And yeah, so it was a good kind of stepping stone.
18:14
And they,
18:15
you know,
18:15
the church I was going to had like other kind of groups
18:18
associated with it.
18:19
SPEAKER_03: So they did have like a young adults night that I went to once.
18:22
SPEAKER_03: And they also had like a Bible study.
18:25
So I joined like their Bible study group and like met like a
18:27
great,
18:28
like a wonderful group.
18:29
SPEAKER_03: And I was going, you know, to Bible study with them.
18:32
um for a couple of months and like I knew nothing like when I
18:36
was starting to read
18:36
the bible like I didn't know what a gentile was like I didn't
18:40
know like I didn't
18:40
know anything and so they were just so wonderful to like
18:44
explain so many things and
18:45
just like they you know really like gave me like a good really
18:48
good insight in
18:49
SPEAKER_03: terms of even getting used to reading the bible and um
18:52
yeah so I learned definitely a lot from them but I suppose then
18:56
just kind of as
18:57
other things were kind of um going on in my life and um yeah I
19:04
kind of got to a
19:06
point then um when yeah so I suppose for me really like what
19:12
changed was when I
19:12
SPEAKER_03: went back to confessions
19:15
SPEAKER_03: And that took like a while to get there.
19:17
And I kind of reached,
19:19
I suppose,
19:20
kind of rock bottom,
19:23
you could say,
19:23
at a certain point.
19:25
SPEAKER_03: And then,
19:26
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
19:27
SPEAKER_03: so like a lot of stuff had been coming up for me,
19:29
SPEAKER_03: stuff that had happened in the past that I kind of had to reckon with.
19:33
SPEAKER_03: And I'd gone to like different like healing retreats.
19:37
SPEAKER_03: Um,
19:37
SPEAKER_03: but yeah,
19:38
SPEAKER_03: I suppose I really kind of got to a point,
19:40
SPEAKER_03: um,
19:41
SPEAKER_03: and I was really just,
19:43
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
19:43
SPEAKER_03: almost,
19:44
SPEAKER_03: you know,
19:44
SPEAKER_03: in a really,
19:44
SPEAKER_03: really,
19:45
SPEAKER_03: really bad place.
19:46
SPEAKER_03: And,
19:46
SPEAKER_03: um,
19:47
it's kind of just after that then that I went to confession and
19:50
after that then
19:51
SPEAKER_03: like everything changed,
19:52
SPEAKER_03: you know?
19:53
SPEAKER_03: Um, so yeah.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: And so the confession, um,
19:58
Cause I suppose the non-dominational probably don't,
20:00
don't have confession.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: And I tend to think it's like a lot of people I know who are baptized.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: Cause for me it was different cause I was an atheist.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: So like I could get baptized in some sense.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: That was my like entrance thing.
20:11
But it's almost like if you've been baptized already,
20:14
what do you do to reenter the church?
20:17
SPEAKER_00: Like,
20:17
SPEAKER_00: and I think that confession,
20:19
SPEAKER_00: like making a full confession after you've been away for a long time,
20:22
SPEAKER_00: is that like almost like a re-baptism in a way.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: It's like a complete,
20:26
SPEAKER_00: you know, washing away.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, what was that?
20:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean, what was that like?
20:31
SPEAKER_00: It seems to have had a big effect on you anyway.
20:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was huge.
20:36
And I was just so grateful that I had like people in my life
20:40
who could help me to go there.
20:43
And so,
20:44
yeah,
20:46
I did it with a really great priest who is here in Limerick.
20:50
SPEAKER_03: And it was kind of like I had to prepare in advance, you know,
20:55
SPEAKER_03: And it was like, I guess, kind of call it like a lifelong confession.
20:59
SPEAKER_03: So you're kind of just going back over everything.
21:02
SPEAKER_03: You know, you're kind of looking at all the different things.
21:05
You're kind of doing the examination of conscience,
21:07
but you're kind of doing that for the last
21:10
20 years or whatever you know as much as you can like for um
21:14
for a first and how I
21:16
mean if you don't mind me asking like how did you did you use
21:18
like a particular did
21:20
you look up something or like a framework or were you just like
21:22
freestyling it just
21:23
like everything in 20 years or like how did you go about making
21:27
that uh yeah
21:29
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
21:30
So it was actually,
21:31
so a woman,
21:32
she's my counselor and she is practicing Catholic herself.
21:37
SPEAKER_03: And so she's been just a phenomenal help.
21:40
SPEAKER_03: Like I'd be totally lost without her support and her guidance.
21:43
SPEAKER_03: It was her, you know, I kind of got to a point where,
21:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think, yeah, so I kind of got to a really, really low point.
21:52
And then it was kind of then that I reached out to her and was
21:55
with her for a couple of weeks.
21:56
SPEAKER_03: And then she was like, are you ready to kind of go to confession?
21:58
SPEAKER_03: I was like, oh, yeah, OK.
22:00
SPEAKER_03: And then so she kind of helped me prepare.
22:02
SPEAKER_03: So she had like the examination of conscience.
22:04
SPEAKER_03: So we just kind of went through it beforehand.
22:06
And so she would have known kind of a lot of the things that I
22:09
needed to bring to confession.
22:10
So I just kind of we just took a bit of time just before we
22:13
went in to just kind of
22:15
SPEAKER_03: what are the main kind of things that I need to do.
22:17
to bring up and um yeah so that's kind of how i i wouldn't have
22:21
kind of known what
22:22
to do myself otherwise but like that i had her to kind of sit
22:26
there with me really
22:27
interesting mix of psychology and uh and the sacraments at the
22:31
same time yeah
22:32
because i think that people get stuck on that as well like
22:34
they've been away for so
22:35
long they're just like where do i even start man i i got out of
22:38
it because i was
22:38
SPEAKER_00: getting baptized they were just like you're fresh i was like you don't
22:41
SPEAKER_00: You don't want to hear about what I've been up to for 30 years.
22:43
SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's right.
22:49
I was ready to do it,
22:50
but they were like,
22:51
no,
22:52
we don't want to hear what you've been up to.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: I was back to scratch after the baptism.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: I still go, but confession is the best, man.
23:02
I don't want to derail us,
23:04
but everybody just tell me how scary confession is.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: It's the best thing of all time.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: I go out nearly every week on a Wednesday or every two weeks.
23:13
And like,
23:14
it's just,
23:15
you know,
23:16
the perfect kind of procedure for like moral development to do.
23:21
I mean,
23:21
it's just,
23:22
yeah,
23:23
I can't believe people aren't more enthusiastic about it.
23:28
yeah like someone said to me recently just that like you know
23:30
their their kid was
23:31
preparing for um first uh for first communion and first
23:35
confession i was kind of
23:37
like you know i don't know why we should make you know children
23:39
you know talk about
23:40
their sins and i was like no we're helping to form their
23:43
conscience so that they'll
23:44
be like responsible adults she's like oh like never thought of
23:48
it like that like
23:49
SPEAKER_00: you know think about when what right and wrong is totally yeah yeah
23:54
yeah absolutely yeah so no like confession is is huge um and
24:01
yeah and I mean it it
24:02
kind of should be it's not supposed to be like the most
24:05
comfortable experience
24:07
either like there you shouldn't just be walking in like yeah
24:09
this is fine you know
24:10
you should feel a little bit like apprehensive or whatever you
24:13
know before it but
24:15
SPEAKER_03: yeah when you walk out then it's like
24:17
you're a new woman or a new man you know yeah it's incredible
24:21
it kind of feels like
24:22
going to the dentist or something like I know I have to go but
24:25
like I really don't
24:26
want to do this but yeah it's the right thing to do yeah so you
24:30
had that confession
24:31
and that did that kind of endear you to the church to
24:35
Catholicism over the
24:36
SPEAKER_00: non-denominational then
24:38
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
24:39
SPEAKER_03: So I think,
24:40
SPEAKER_03: I think I'd been kind of just not feeling,
24:42
SPEAKER_03: I suppose even in the non-denomination church,
24:45
SPEAKER_03: like I didn't feel super comfortable.
24:48
SPEAKER_03: Like,
24:48
SPEAKER_03: you know,
24:49
SPEAKER_03: they kind of would do like,
24:51
SPEAKER_03: like a time of just like quiet with like,
24:54
SPEAKER_03: like a Eucharist and like it would just be like a sliced pan,
24:59
SPEAKER_03: like broken into little pieces.
25:01
SPEAKER_03: And then there'd be like shot glasses of like grape juice or something.
25:04
SPEAKER_03: I would like pass that around.
25:06
SPEAKER_03: And like the first time I was there, I was like, okay, and I did it.
25:10
But after that,
25:10
I was like,
25:11
I just do not feel comfortable doing this at all.
25:14
SPEAKER_03: Desecration of the uber.
25:17
SPEAKER_03: Kind of, yeah.
25:18
Like I knew it was just like supposed to be symbolic,
25:21
but I was like this.
25:22
It just kind of,
25:23
it just,
25:23
I felt I didn't feel kind of super comfortable there after a
25:27
while.
25:27
SPEAKER_03: And I think, yeah, it was probably...
25:31
I'd probably yeah gone to confession um and then I suppose
25:35
after that then I just
25:36
kind of I just yeah I just knew and I suppose there was other
25:40
points as well where
25:42
SPEAKER_03: and I suppose there's been like different like
25:45
SPEAKER_03: you know, stages of conversion.
25:47
SPEAKER_03: And there was like certain points in my conversion where I just knew like
25:53
instinctively that like the teachings of the church are correct
25:57
and are there for a
25:58
SPEAKER_03: reason.
25:59
SPEAKER_03: And that it's because we,
26:01
SPEAKER_03: I've,
26:01
SPEAKER_03: you know,
26:01
SPEAKER_03: I speak personally that I've deviated away from this,
26:05
SPEAKER_03: that I've found myself in such a serious,
26:09
SPEAKER_03: like,
26:10
SPEAKER_03: you know,
26:10
SPEAKER_03: spiritual situation.
26:12
So it was just moments of just knowing that the teachings are
26:20
correct and that
26:21
SPEAKER_03: they're there for a reason.
26:22
And even just like,
26:24
as I mentioned,
26:25
all the things that I've been interested in.
26:27
So I was teaching fertility awareness,
26:31
which is basically the same as natural family planning.
26:34
SPEAKER_03: And the things like,
26:35
like I've always been interested in like relationships and
26:38
sexuality and gender.
26:40
And even like I was involved in kind of like activism around
26:44
that and like the
26:46
SPEAKER_03: gender stuff,
26:46
SPEAKER_03: not from the pro,
26:48
SPEAKER_03: like from like,
26:49
SPEAKER_03: you know,
26:49
SPEAKER_03: anti-gender,
26:51
SPEAKER_03: anti-transgenderism.
26:53
SPEAKER_03: And so, and even then it's like the more I kind of,
26:56
came to know the church the more I was like oh the church
26:59
actually the Catholic
27:00
faith has all the answers to this already like it's like this
27:05
2000 plus years of
27:06
wisdom and like understanding of of Jesus and understanding of
27:11
humanity and that
27:12
like that's actually why the church is the way it is so it was
27:16
also just everything
27:17
like my whole everything in my life that I'd already been
27:20
really interested in or
27:21
SPEAKER_03: passionate about or involved in
27:23
Like as I came more and more into the faith,
27:25
I was like,
27:26
oh,
27:26
it's already here.
27:27
SPEAKER_03: Like we already have all the answers.
27:29
SPEAKER_03: And so that was,
27:30
SPEAKER_03: I suppose,
27:31
SPEAKER_03: another way for me,
27:33
just like instinctively just knowing that this is Catholic
27:36
faith is the true faith.
27:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: And that's,
27:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
27:43
SPEAKER_00: that's such a 180,
27:45
SPEAKER_00: I think from like the kind of activist,
27:48
because a lot of those issues that you were talking about are
27:51
such like hot button
27:52
SPEAKER_00: issues in terms of,
27:54
SPEAKER_00: I don't know more for women than for men.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: I think for men as well,
27:58
SPEAKER_00: but they're culturally,
27:59
SPEAKER_00: I suppose,
27:59
SPEAKER_00: just like such like controversial,
28:03
SPEAKER_00: like sacred cows pretty much at this point.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: Um,
28:07
And the Catholic version of that would be very much like the
28:09
countercultural
28:11
SPEAKER_00: approach in some sense.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: And so you've kind of come from complete opposite side in that sense too.
28:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a huge, huge change, really.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, how, like, yeah, like, what was that like?
28:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
28:27
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
28:27
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
28:27
SPEAKER_03: like I used to be like a feminist,
28:30
SPEAKER_03: you know,
28:31
SPEAKER_03: a pro-choice,
28:32
SPEAKER_03: pro-abortion feminist.
28:35
SPEAKER_03: And yeah,
28:37
SPEAKER_03: like,
28:38
but I suppose one parallel is like I and how I kind of got into
28:42
like the like
28:43
fertility awareness and the natural family planning like years
28:46
ago was like,
28:49
I like because I had been in like a serious relationship kind
28:53
of my late teens and
28:54
SPEAKER_03: so was using the pill at that time.
28:57
That ended and then I was in another long term relationship a
29:00
few years later and
29:01
SPEAKER_03: like had really negative experiences when I was on the pill as so many,
29:06
SPEAKER_03: if not all women do.
29:08
um in in one way or another and yeah so i'd really bad
29:11
experiences and so a few
29:12
years later then when i was you know felt i needed to be on
29:15
contraception um i kind
29:17
of wanted to find an alternative so i use like what's called
29:21
like a copper iud i
29:22
don't know if you know what that is but it's like basically a
29:26
metal sisters so i'm
29:27
SPEAKER_00: aware of these things
29:28
SPEAKER_03: Right, yeah.
29:30
SPEAKER_03: So it's like a metal rod that sticks into your uterus.
29:34
SPEAKER_03: And copper, there's two different kinds.
29:36
SPEAKER_03: There's like a hormonal one, there's a copper one.
29:39
And I chose the copper one because I thought,
29:42
oh,
29:43
I didn't want any like hormones.
29:44
SPEAKER_03: So I thought the copper was like more natural.
29:46
But actually how it works is that it's actually just like
29:49
hostile to sperm.
29:51
So it just like kills sperm and probably just causes like
29:54
toxicity just in the womb in general.
29:59
and so yeah so and I so yeah so I opted for that one but had
30:04
like really terrible
30:06
side effects as well so like my hair fell out I got like cystic
30:09
acne all over my
30:09
face like just like I could feel like just pain just bleeding
30:13
like the whole it was
30:14
really bad um and I remember going to the doctor at the time
30:18
and being like and
30:19
again that was also like a kind of a moment and looking back
30:22
now I think that was
30:23
like God speaking to me even though I didn't know it was God
30:25
but it was like my
30:26
SPEAKER_03: intuition um
30:27
SPEAKER_03: just knew I was having all these side effects,
30:29
SPEAKER_03: but it was,
30:30
SPEAKER_03: I didn't know what was causing it for a while.
30:31
SPEAKER_03: And it was just like intuition or God in that moment.
30:35
SPEAKER_03: And I just knew this is the problem and I need to get this out.
30:40
And so that kind of experience that led me to find like,
30:44
what's the alternative,
30:46
you know?
30:47
So I started learning about like natural family planning and
30:50
fertility and I'm just
30:51
SPEAKER_03: like absolutely fell in love with it and just understanding like how
30:55
the female body works and that women are not fertile all the
30:57
time and that,
30:58
SPEAKER_03: you know,
30:59
ovulation only happens once in a cycle and you can identify
31:02
when you're fertile and
31:03
then you can choose your sexual activity around that time
31:06
depending on what your
31:07
SPEAKER_03: reproductive intentions are.
31:09
SPEAKER_03: So I just became like super, super passionate about this work.
31:13
SPEAKER_03: But then obviously then,
31:15
SPEAKER_03: so like when I,
31:16
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
31:16
SPEAKER_03: when you come into the church and then it's like,
31:18
SPEAKER_03: well,
31:18
SPEAKER_03: actually the reason,
31:19
SPEAKER_03: and even though I did,
31:20
so I did like a training a few years later and the training
31:24
that I did at the time
31:25
SPEAKER_03: was with like a secular organization.
31:28
And I was very adamant that I wanted to train with the secular
31:30
organization because
31:31
SPEAKER_03: I didn't want to be affiliated with the Catholic Church.
31:35
SPEAKER_03: But even our method had been...
31:40
It was the Catholic Church that did all the investment and all
31:44
the research into
31:46
understanding fertility and understanding and trying to develop
31:50
these methodologies
31:51
SPEAKER_03: for natural family planning that were effective and safe.
31:55
SPEAKER_03: So actually, it's like the church...
31:57
SPEAKER_03: you know,
31:58
our perception that the church like hates women or just wants
32:01
to control our bodies
32:01
SPEAKER_03: couldn't be further from the truth.
32:03
SPEAKER_03: The church obviously is like so pro-women,
32:06
SPEAKER_03: like obviously we know that like now,
32:08
SPEAKER_03: but you know,
32:09
SPEAKER_03: if you like just go into it a little bit deeper,
32:12
like you can see the church is actually extremely pro-women in
32:16
this respect,
32:16
SPEAKER_03: you know,
32:17
because the normal medical model is just trying to like
32:20
sterilize women and turn
32:21
SPEAKER_03: off their cycles all the time and all this stuff.
32:26
SPEAKER_03: So,
32:27
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
32:27
SPEAKER_03: but even the training that I did,
32:29
SPEAKER_03: like the founder would always pay homage to the church.
32:32
SPEAKER_03: Like any time before she would speak,
32:34
SPEAKER_03: she was like,
32:34
SPEAKER_03: even though we're secular and we're a feminist organization,
32:37
we always have to kind of pay homage to the fact that this
32:41
method wouldn't exist
32:42
SPEAKER_03: without the church's investment in it.
32:46
SPEAKER_03: So,
32:47
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
32:47
SPEAKER_03: so that was kind of just even,
32:48
SPEAKER_03: you know,
32:49
SPEAKER_03: in later years that like just kind of that understanding that like,
32:53
SPEAKER_03: oh,
32:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
32:54
the church actually has been like the foundation of this work
32:58
that I'm really
32:59
SPEAKER_03: passionate about.
33:01
SPEAKER_03: So,
33:02
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
33:02
SPEAKER_03: now I'm like training to teach,
33:05
but in a different method that will be more like in line with
33:09
the church and so on.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: That is unbelievable.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: I'd never heard that before.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know, because that's the narrative you hear.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the narrative I would have grown up with as well.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: It was like the default was like,
33:19
SPEAKER_00: Catholic church is like oppressive,
33:22
SPEAKER_00: patriarchal,
33:23
SPEAKER_00: women had no rights,
33:24
SPEAKER_00: weren't allowed to say anything,
33:26
SPEAKER_00: like you're expected to be in the kitchen.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: This kind of like,
33:29
which maybe I think is more associated with a particular
33:32
cultural kind of backdrop,
33:34
SPEAKER_00: maybe in,
33:36
SPEAKER_00: well,
33:37
SPEAKER_00: certainly in Ireland anyway.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: But it's like the church actually,
33:40
SPEAKER_00: a lot of that stuff isn't,
33:41
SPEAKER_00: like it doesn't have to be,
33:43
SPEAKER_00: it's not church doctrine,
33:44
SPEAKER_00: like it's not in the catechism.
33:45
SPEAKER_00: It's not like...
33:46
SPEAKER_00: You know?
33:47
Um,
33:48
and so,
33:48
yeah,
33:48
when you say like the church is really pro women,
33:50
like what did you find?
33:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, well, yeah.
33:53
SPEAKER_00: What do you mean by that?
33:53
SPEAKER_00: Like what, what would you see as being?
33:56
Cause like a lot of young women,
33:57
I imagine think the exact opposite of that.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: So it might clear all some misconceptions.
34:03
yes I think if even we just like look at even just yeah like
34:08
any I suppose just
34:09
from my the course that I've just done in like theology of the
34:13
body um and really
34:14
just understanding like what it is to be a woman what it is to
34:18
be male what it is
34:19
to be female and how like we're not we're designed like for for
34:23
each other to
34:24
SPEAKER_03: complement each other and that like
34:27
SPEAKER_03: You know,
34:27
SPEAKER_03: and also like when you think and like the fact that like Our Lady,
34:31
SPEAKER_03: like the Blessed Mother is she is like the crowning jewel of our faith.
34:36
And I don't know of any other faith that has a female figure
34:39
who is so important to the faith.
34:42
SPEAKER_03: Like she's not divine, but she is like right there, like leading.
34:46
everybody to Jesus and so like to have like our blessed mother
34:49
as like such a
34:50
cornerstone of our faith like people don't seem to think about
34:53
that and we just
34:55
kind of get bogged down in the fact that like oh we can't why
34:59
can't women be
34:59
priests it's like well if you actually understood anything
35:02
about the faith you'd
35:03
understand why women can't be priests but that doesn't mean
35:06
that like and like we
35:07
don't need women to be priests like women can do a multitude of
35:11
other things in the
35:12
SPEAKER_03: church and do and like that's phenomenal
35:16
SPEAKER_03: And so,
35:17
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
35:17
SPEAKER_03: I think we're just really like,
35:19
SPEAKER_03: it's just not a very well thought out,
35:22
SPEAKER_03: I think,
35:23
like if people are actually to maybe sit down and actually just
35:26
kind of open their
35:28
SPEAKER_03: minds or just to,
35:29
SPEAKER_03: you know,
35:30
SPEAKER_03: to hear the different perspectives,
35:32
SPEAKER_03: you'd see that actually like that's not.
35:34
SPEAKER_03: And again, it's like it's not in church doctrine.
35:37
SPEAKER_03: It's not in the catechism.
35:38
SPEAKER_03: It's not.
35:39
SPEAKER_03: Like,
35:39
SPEAKER_03: we don't,
35:39
SPEAKER_03: you know,
35:40
SPEAKER_03: and that's not to take away that,
35:41
SPEAKER_03: like,
35:41
SPEAKER_03: there has,
35:42
SPEAKER_03: of course,
35:43
SPEAKER_03: been,
35:43
SPEAKER_03: like,
35:44
SPEAKER_03: you know,
35:45
SPEAKER_03: women haven't been treated fairly.
35:46
SPEAKER_03: Like,
35:47
SPEAKER_03: I'm not trying to claim that,
35:48
SPEAKER_03: like,
35:48
SPEAKER_03: oh,
35:49
SPEAKER_03: you know,
35:49
SPEAKER_03: of course,
35:50
SPEAKER_03: they have to acknowledge that as well,
35:52
SPEAKER_03: and particularly from the past.
35:54
But,
35:55
yeah,
35:56
but,
35:56
no,
35:56
I mean,
35:57
even just when you take it back to,
35:58
like,
35:59
yeah,
36:00
like,
36:01
like even like how our lady is so like revered in our faith and
36:05
that like the womb
36:06
of being like a sacred space and like the womb is like you know
36:11
the equivalent of
36:12
you know we compare like mary is like mary and jesus are like
36:16
the new adam and eve
36:17
and it's kind of like yeah and that mary was the ark of the
36:20
covenant like her womb
36:21
SPEAKER_00: that bore god and
36:23
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
36:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
36:24
SPEAKER_03: The womb is like the first tabernacle of the Lord.
36:27
SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, like that's incredible.
36:29
SPEAKER_03: And so that like women's role as like,
36:32
SPEAKER_03: you know,
36:33
SPEAKER_03: as like,
36:34
SPEAKER_03: you know,
36:35
SPEAKER_03: like mother figure,
36:37
SPEAKER_03: you know,
36:38
SPEAKER_03: and male obviously presents like the father,
36:40
SPEAKER_03: the masculine father figure,
36:42
SPEAKER_03: you know,
36:42
SPEAKER_03: that's huge and is such a central part of our faith.
36:45
So,
36:46
yeah,
36:46
I think if people just actually take some time to assess,
36:50
you'll see that that's.
36:52
true yeah and that it's the path to holiness as well i mean
36:55
there's no i i'm not
36:57
well i'm not aware of any other traditions that put as much
37:00
emphasis on marriage as
37:01
a vocation for holiness as like the cooperation of men and
37:06
women like that kind of
37:07
workshop of love is where you actually attain you know that's
37:11
that's your path to
37:12
salvation if you're not living the religious life like that
37:15
that kind of emphasis
37:16
SPEAKER_00: is so the opposite of like
37:18
the kind of toxic modern culture that's just like people are
37:21
interchangeable with
37:22
SPEAKER_00: each other and just,
37:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:23
SPEAKER_00: get with as many people as you want and,
37:25
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:26
SPEAKER_00: keep swapping each other for all eternity.
37:28
It's like,
37:28
that's kind of,
37:30
you know,
37:30
I don't know if that's the ideal,
37:31
to be honest.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: It seems to, yeah, result in kind of disaster.
37:36
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I don't know.
37:40
SPEAKER_00: It seems like,
37:41
SPEAKER_00: because it's such a,
37:42
SPEAKER_00: this seems so core to our culture at the moment for some reason.
37:45
SPEAKER_00: Like women are really,
37:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what it is.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: Like the culture has changed so much in a hundred years,
37:50
SPEAKER_00: I suppose,
37:50
SPEAKER_00: even probably from like grandparents generation to now,
37:54
SPEAKER_00: like there was such a change in like women coming into the workforce,
37:59
SPEAKER_00: women becoming part of like political systems more.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: But then it was like,
38:03
SPEAKER_00: well,
38:03
SPEAKER_00: what,
38:03
SPEAKER_00: what are women now in some sense of like,
38:05
SPEAKER_00: are they going to be like the new men,
38:07
SPEAKER_00: like the future is female kind of thing of like,
38:10
women are just like girl bosses you know take over everything
38:14
or it's like or the
38:15
SPEAKER_00: Catholic is you know mother protector like this kind of Mary is the ideal
38:21
essentially whereas Eve is the you know the negative um so I
38:26
don't know yeah do you
38:26
think like how do you see that conflict um versus like the
38:30
modern kind of narrative
38:31
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what are your thoughts on that
38:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:34
SPEAKER_03: Like I think women are quite lost in the sense,
38:38
SPEAKER_03: like,
38:38
SPEAKER_03: you know,
38:39
even in terms of like what feminism has done to kind of pit the
38:43
sexes against each
38:45
SPEAKER_03: other.
38:45
SPEAKER_03: And also like women,
38:48
SPEAKER_03: the goal with women,
38:49
SPEAKER_03: you know,
38:50
and even that's why like things like they latched onto things
38:54
like contraception
38:55
SPEAKER_03: and like bodily autonomy and like the right to control the reproduction.
38:59
SPEAKER_03: It's like,
39:00
actually it's like our ability to bring life is what makes
39:04
women so incredible and
39:05
SPEAKER_03: so powerful and also like,
39:07
SPEAKER_03: and also so much more vulnerable.
39:09
SPEAKER_03: Um,
39:10
you know but it's like that vulnerability and that like that
39:13
that beauty and that
39:14
capacity to like to to bring life into the world is like is
39:18
incredible and like
39:19
that's our superpower but like for the last couple of
39:23
generations the norm has been
39:26
actually to sterilize yourself and like that's what
39:28
contraception hormonal
39:30
SPEAKER_03: contraception is it's sterilization it's putting women it's you know
39:34
SPEAKER_03: The first time,
39:35
SPEAKER_03: you know,
39:35
SPEAKER_03: in the trans kind of debate,
39:37
we often hear about the term like chemical castration when you
39:40
give like puberty
39:41
SPEAKER_03: blockers to children.
39:42
The first time I ever heard the term chemical castration was a
39:45
woman talking about
39:47
SPEAKER_03: like a naturopathic doctor talking about the pill,
39:49
SPEAKER_03: women being on the pill.
39:51
SPEAKER_03: So like,
39:51
SPEAKER_03: so again,
39:52
SPEAKER_03: that's like,
39:52
SPEAKER_03: I've always seen like the parallels between this,
39:55
SPEAKER_03: these,
39:55
SPEAKER_03: these things.
39:57
SPEAKER_03: And so that's,
39:59
SPEAKER_03: but that's really has just become like the mainstream culture is like,
40:03
SPEAKER_03: and like that,
40:04
SPEAKER_03: like to sterilize yourself and to,
40:06
SPEAKER_03: and to see that like our menstrual cycles are seen as like a curse.
40:10
um and that again and that's not to take away that a lot of
40:13
women really suffer and
40:15
really do have like very difficult experiences so it's not to
40:18
take away from that
40:19
either um but also just like um sterilizing the woman you know
40:24
temporarily
40:24
sterilizing her you know is what contraception is um that's not
40:29
the solution either
40:30
SPEAKER_03: that's like not a holistic approach and
40:33
I suppose,
40:33
yeah,
40:34
then it just kind of,
40:35
but that's like what the mainstream tell you.
40:38
SPEAKER_03: And that's what the doctors tell you.
40:39
SPEAKER_03: And actually,
40:40
SPEAKER_03: if you're not on the pill,
40:42
SPEAKER_03: and you're sexually active,
40:43
SPEAKER_03: and you're not ready for a child,
40:45
SPEAKER_03: you're being irresponsible.
40:47
SPEAKER_03: And
40:49
SPEAKER_03: And I think,
40:49
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
40:50
SPEAKER_03: like,
40:50
SPEAKER_03: you know,
40:51
SPEAKER_03: and like women,
40:52
SPEAKER_03: it's been seen,
40:54
SPEAKER_03: you know,
40:54
SPEAKER_03: back in like the 60s and 70s.
40:56
SPEAKER_03: And,
40:57
SPEAKER_03: you know,
40:57
SPEAKER_03: since then that like a woman's right to access contraception,
41:01
SPEAKER_03: you know,
41:01
SPEAKER_03: women have fought for this being their right to access contraception.
41:06
But it's actually really it's just given men the right to
41:10
access women's bodies
41:11
SPEAKER_03: without consequence.
41:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
41:14
SPEAKER_03: And also,
41:14
SPEAKER_03: I know like the kind of within the Catholic faith,
41:18
the kind of seeing like the link between contraception and the
41:22
link to abortion,
41:23
SPEAKER_03: because if you're already contraception and then,
41:25
SPEAKER_03: you know,
41:26
SPEAKER_03: it's not always effective or it's not used correctly.
41:29
SPEAKER_03: And then pregnancy occurs and you're like,
41:31
SPEAKER_03: oh,
41:31
SPEAKER_03: well,
41:32
I don't know this person or I'm not in a relationship with this
41:34
person or I'm not
41:34
SPEAKER_03: ready or whatever the case is.
41:37
SPEAKER_03: So then, you know, people will choose for abortion.
41:40
SPEAKER_03: Um,
41:40
SPEAKER_03: so it's like all of these things are connected as well as then just,
41:45
and I suppose it kind of goes hand in hand that we're also
41:47
trying to make women
41:48
SPEAKER_03: more like men and also women and men approach like sex very differently.
41:54
Um,
41:56
obviously because women,
41:57
you know,
41:58
bear the burden of,
41:59
of pregnancy and so on.
42:00
SPEAKER_03: So it is a different thing.
42:03
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
42:04
But I suppose with contraception then has just been trying to
42:07
allow women,
42:08
SPEAKER_03: oh,
42:08
SPEAKER_03: you can be as sexually promiscuous as you want.
42:12
SPEAKER_03: And it doesn't matter because you won't get pregnant.
42:14
SPEAKER_03: And even like we've just taken...
42:17
you know trying to like you know taking the trying to take the
42:20
shame out of those
42:21
things that like oh yeah it's being a shame is your conscience
42:26
telling you that
42:26
you're behaving in a way that's precisely yeah and now i mean
42:31
you see things even
42:32
in our culture and it's like um you know let's be pro hiv like
42:39
pro sexual diseases
42:41
SPEAKER_03: it's just like
42:42
not pro but i mean like let's reduce the stigma it's like
42:45
actually sorry stigma's
42:46
there for a reason you know that like it's we're not supposed
42:50
to be applauding
42:50
these kind of things and rather than trying to take a step back
42:54
and be like is it
42:55
really such a good thing that we have such high levels of of
42:59
stds or should we be
43:01
actually taking a step back and be like oh maybe there's
43:04
something wrong in the way
43:05
SPEAKER_03: that people are just the way the people are um
43:09
SPEAKER_03: sleeping with so many people.
43:10
SPEAKER_03: So that's just, I suppose, another element too.
43:12
SPEAKER_03: But yeah,
43:13
SPEAKER_03: I think it really just kind of the culture has taken,
43:16
SPEAKER_03: rather than like empowering women for what their unique gift is,
43:21
SPEAKER_03: which is like the capacity to bring forth life.
43:24
SPEAKER_03: And even if you're not like,
43:26
a mother of physical children that you can still mother in
43:29
other ways um and that's
43:31
you know yeah so we've really kind of just skewed that and and
43:36
kind of encourage
43:36
women through the culture that women should just behave and act
43:40
more like men and
43:42
SPEAKER_03: like you know a lot of the feminist causes now is just like um
43:47
SPEAKER_03: The gender pay gap.
43:49
SPEAKER_03: We need 50% CEOs.
43:51
SPEAKER_03: It's like, actually, no, we don't.
43:53
SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't care if there's a male or like female CEO.
43:56
SPEAKER_03: I don't care if we have more male.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: It's like very stereotypical as well, isn't it?
44:01
SPEAKER_00: In some way, it's like they have to be like, yeah, like getting it.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: It's like, yeah, cash and checks and breaking necks kind of like.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: Wall Street banger ideal or something like that.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: It's a weird... Yeah, we've almost swapped in some senses.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: They've just tried to take that story,
44:17
SPEAKER_00: but that actually wasn't the right story in the first place.
44:20
It was the Catholic story is the actual one that respects both
44:24
sexes and puts them
44:24
SPEAKER_00: into proper...
44:25
proper organization i think so much our society like tries to
44:28
break men and women
44:29
apart and think about them separately in some sense it's like
44:32
uh it puts like
44:33
what's good for women at odds with what's good for men and
44:36
there's this kind of
44:37
battle of the sexes but like in reality we were meant to live
44:40
together like it's
44:41
the basis of family and community so like yeah i mean it's not
44:46
not very sustainable
44:47
SPEAKER_00: but do you think these are
44:49
SPEAKER_00: Are these obstacles like the stuff you described with like contraception,
44:53
SPEAKER_00: reproductive rights,
44:54
SPEAKER_00: those issues,
44:55
SPEAKER_00: the whole bodily autonomy?
44:56
Like,
44:57
is that stuff an obstacle,
44:59
do you think,
45:00
for women coming to the Catholic Church?
45:02
Like,
45:02
that's something that they're like,
45:04
oh,
45:04
I'll have to give up on that.
45:07
SPEAKER_00: I'll have to sacrifice it, basically.
45:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I would say...
45:14
SPEAKER_03: Like even in the sense that like,
45:16
SPEAKER_03: so again,
45:17
SPEAKER_03: like it's,
45:17
SPEAKER_03: it's women who,
45:19
SPEAKER_03: you know,
45:19
SPEAKER_03: like,
45:20
SPEAKER_03: and again,
45:20
the body is so important and like we hold the consequences of
45:26
these things in our
45:27
SPEAKER_03: bodies.
45:29
SPEAKER_03: And so I think,
45:31
SPEAKER_03: you know,
45:31
SPEAKER_03: like,
45:31
SPEAKER_03: again,
45:32
SPEAKER_03: if a woman's,
45:33
SPEAKER_03: you know,
45:33
if you've been on contraception or like she's had abortions or
45:36
she's been sexually
45:37
SPEAKER_03: promiscuous or,
45:39
SPEAKER_03: you know,
45:39
SPEAKER_03: she's,
45:40
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
45:41
SPEAKER_03: just,
45:41
SPEAKER_03: you know,
45:42
SPEAKER_03: been involved in,
45:43
SPEAKER_03: in,
45:44
SPEAKER_03: in,
45:44
you know stuff with the body that is um it's difficult to come
45:50
to terms with that
45:52
and again when you just see and like the you know it's almost
45:56
like the further
45:57
along you've gone the harder it is to come back and so I do
46:01
think it's just the
46:02
culture and like this is the thing like there there is a
46:04
particular like spiritual
46:06
SPEAKER_03: battle against women and against women's bodies um and like
46:10
you know satan will target women specifically and also because
46:15
like you can say
46:16
we're we are more vulnerable we are the the weaker sex so you
46:20
know um you know so
46:22
it's easy and also you know the fact that women can generate
46:26
life like puts them at
46:27
a you know um i don't say not a disadvantage but like again
46:32
they're more of a
46:32
SPEAKER_03: threat um to to the evil one so um
46:37
SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, I think it's it's it's hard.
46:39
SPEAKER_03: And like,
46:40
SPEAKER_03: you know,
46:40
SPEAKER_03: in the culture,
46:42
SPEAKER_03: it's yeah,
46:43
SPEAKER_03: it's it's a lot to come to terms with,
46:45
particularly when you've and like I can say that because I've
46:49
I've come through it.
46:50
SPEAKER_03: So I've been on that side.
46:52
SPEAKER_03: I've been the feminist.
46:53
SPEAKER_03: I've been, you know, the pro-choice person.
46:56
SPEAKER_03: I've been like I've done all these things.
46:59
um and I you know had to face myself and like it is so painful
47:05
like it is like if
47:06
there's just the devastation um and like that you can find is
47:12
just it's so it's so
47:14
so tough and I like reached a point like I almost didn't come
47:18
through that you know
47:19
SPEAKER_03: so it's it's so hard
47:22
SPEAKER_03: And I think we even like we really need to like recognize that,
47:27
like how difficult it is to actually come to terms with the way
47:32
that you've been
47:32
SPEAKER_03: living for a long time and to reconcile with that.
47:36
SPEAKER_03: And also,
47:37
like if you don't know that like Jesus is there and that he
47:41
loves you and that he
47:42
forgives you and his mercy and his compassion and like the
47:47
redemptive nature of our
47:49
SPEAKER_03: faith and that like,
47:50
we can,
47:51
you know,
47:52
like that,
47:53
you know,
47:53
our suffering can be used for,
47:55
for good.
47:56
SPEAKER_03: And like,
47:56
SPEAKER_03: we can,
47:57
SPEAKER_03: if you let Jesus come into your,
47:59
your life and come into your heart and you're open and you're
48:02
willing to go to
48:03
SPEAKER_03: those really like devastating places that like,
48:06
SPEAKER_03: you can be transformed and you can be,
48:09
SPEAKER_03: um,
48:10
SPEAKER_03: become like an,
48:12
SPEAKER_03: you know,
48:12
SPEAKER_03: become new.
48:13
And,
48:13
um,
48:14
so if people don't know that it's also really difficult to like
48:19
take those steps and,
48:20
forward um but yeah and so i think you know even with our the
48:25
catholic and again
48:26
like if you maybe didn't grow up in the catholic faith and
48:32
you're it's totally like
48:33
so it's totally alien to you like it was alien to me and i grew
48:36
up in it you know
48:38
Um,
48:38
but if you haven't,
48:39
I think coming into the Catholic faith,
48:41
it is,
48:41
it's,
48:42
it's hard.
48:43
SPEAKER_03: And,
48:44
SPEAKER_03: um,
48:44
SPEAKER_03: and I,
48:45
SPEAKER_03: but again,
48:45
SPEAKER_03: it's like,
48:46
SPEAKER_03: but that's because within our Catholic faith,
48:49
SPEAKER_03: like that's really,
48:49
SPEAKER_03: it's so rich.
48:50
SPEAKER_03: It's so beautiful.
48:51
Like it's,
48:52
you know,
48:53
it's,
48:53
it's the pursuit,
48:54
it's truth,
48:54
it's goodness,
48:55
it's beauty.
48:55
SPEAKER_03: Like it is, that is it.
48:57
SPEAKER_03: Whereas like,
48:58
SPEAKER_03: I think even for people,
48:59
SPEAKER_03: maybe,
49:00
SPEAKER_03: um,
49:01
SPEAKER_03: coming to like the,
49:03
SPEAKER_03: the non-denominated churches,
49:04
SPEAKER_03: like,
49:04
SPEAKER_03: or the Christian churches,
49:06
I think people will find it easier maybe to go there because
49:11
there is also like a
49:12
SPEAKER_03: little,
49:13
SPEAKER_03: maybe a little less pressure in terms of kind of what you're,
49:18
SPEAKER_03: what's expected.
49:19
SPEAKER_03: You know, you don't necessarily have to go to confession.
49:21
SPEAKER_03: You don't have to do,
49:22
SPEAKER_03: you just kind of have to like,
49:25
SPEAKER_03: I don't know,
49:25
SPEAKER_03: call the Holy Spirit into your life and
49:28
you know you kind of read the bible but there is i i don't know
49:31
and this might not
49:32
be like um the best assessment but i feel like it's maybe a
49:35
little bit easier for
49:36
people to go there um and that's something that i think in the
49:41
the catholic church
49:43
that we're maybe just not in some sense like maybe not ready
49:47
for or maybe don't
49:48
SPEAKER_03: have the capacity for because like one thing i'll say is like in the
49:52
SPEAKER_03: non-denominational churches like
49:55
SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of heads there.
49:57
SPEAKER_03: Do you know what I mean?
49:58
SPEAKER_03: There's the people who were the wild boys and girls.
50:03
SPEAKER_03: I feel like more so than there is in the Catholic faith.
50:11
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's an Irish thing as well.
50:14
I guess because it's been so culturally dominant that it's
50:17
mostly the older people
50:19
SPEAKER_00: as well that will be showing up,
50:21
SPEAKER_00: that you'll be seeing.
50:23
And so like for rebellious kind of young people that have come
50:26
through that cycle
50:27
SPEAKER_00: of like sinning,
50:28
SPEAKER_00: like going away from God,
50:29
SPEAKER_00: seeing the consequences of the sin and being like,
50:32
SPEAKER_00: oh shit,
50:32
SPEAKER_00: this is actually real.
50:34
SPEAKER_00: And then who kind of go, okay, I don't want to keep doing that cycle.
50:37
SPEAKER_00: I can see it's, you know, I need to get out of this.
50:40
SPEAKER_00: And then might go,
50:42
you know religion it's the only place where forgiveness and
50:45
redemption is like so
50:47
that makes sense but maybe the catholic one there's less of a
50:50
community for that
50:51
type of person i think in that i think increasingly so i think
50:56
me and you are
50:56
examples of people who have kind of pushed through maybe some
51:00
of the resistance to
51:01
SPEAKER_00: be like i think this is the right place i'm gonna go anyway but like
51:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do.
51:06
I share your opinion there that the church is not super ready
51:10
for that and it can
51:11
SPEAKER_00: be very difficult.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: Like even for me to get baptized,
51:14
I had to basically chase people down by email all the time and
51:18
like running out and
51:19
SPEAKER_00: like,
51:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
51:20
some people just didn't reply to me or they didn't give me
51:22
information and they
51:22
SPEAKER_00: sent me to a website and it didn't make any sense.
51:24
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it wasn't like, it wasn't an easy onboarding process.
51:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: And I think people can be put off then,
51:33
but I guess maybe it's just getting in there and getting into
51:36
the right place,
51:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
51:38
SPEAKER_00: and the internet,
51:38
SPEAKER_00: I suppose,
51:39
SPEAKER_00: can help find out,
51:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
51:40
where people are and where I know you're involved in Rathmines
51:43
Parish is a very
51:44
SPEAKER_00: good one,
51:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
51:45
SPEAKER_00: where younger people tend to go.
51:47
SPEAKER_00: Um,
51:48
Because I think more and more people are having the same
51:51
experience we've had of
51:52
SPEAKER_00: like,
51:52
SPEAKER_00: you've lived in the secular world.
51:54
SPEAKER_00: You've been hurt by it.
51:55
SPEAKER_00: You've realized the principles are wrong, that they don't actually work.
51:58
SPEAKER_00: They're not going to lead to a good life.
52:00
SPEAKER_00: They're not going to bring you closer to people.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: They're not going to lead to love.
52:03
SPEAKER_00: And so you have to go somewhere else.
52:04
But it's like,
52:05
you know,
52:05
where else,
52:07
you know,
52:07
what was,
52:08
what is the other culture?
52:09
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's the Catholic, the Catholic churches.
52:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:13
um the actual functioning culture within it if that makes sense
52:18
yeah totally um but
52:20
then i think it's still difficult like to come into the
52:25
catholic faith then if
52:26
you're like if it's totally foreign to you yeah so i think
52:30
that's something that we
52:31
need to be conscious of and i think like yeah your experience
52:35
is like really
52:35
valuable particularly growing up like totally outside of the
52:38
faith and then coming
52:39
SPEAKER_03: into you have that experience um
52:41
Um,
52:42
but I think it's something that like Catholics need to kind of
52:45
be conscious of as well.
52:46
SPEAKER_03: And I think just having the understanding,
52:49
SPEAKER_03: cause,
52:49
SPEAKER_03: and I think this is like,
52:50
we bring a perspective as well of having lived of the world and
52:54
knowing the
52:54
SPEAKER_03: devastation.
52:55
SPEAKER_03: And I think,
52:56
SPEAKER_03: cause especially I think coming into the faith and,
52:59
SPEAKER_03: you know,
53:00
SPEAKER_03: and now I'm just trying to like live a normal Catholic life,
53:02
SPEAKER_03: but sometimes it's
53:03
SPEAKER_03: it's difficult because I feel,
53:05
SPEAKER_03: I suppose I've kind of felt my whole life,
53:06
SPEAKER_03: like really,
53:07
I never really fit in and especially the life that I've had and
53:10
all the things that
53:11
SPEAKER_03: I've gone through.
53:11
And I'm still at a point where I feel like I don't really fit
53:14
in typically,
53:14
you know,
53:15
SPEAKER_03: But when you meet people and,
53:17
SPEAKER_03: you know,
53:18
who've maybe been grown up in the faith and they've been
53:21
practicing their faith.
53:22
And it's like sometimes like we just we don't it's hard to find
53:27
even a common
53:28
SPEAKER_03: ground there because like I'm so different and I'm like,
53:31
SPEAKER_03: we're all broken.
53:32
SPEAKER_03: You know, we're all sinners.
53:33
um but like you know i've been very far and done like you know
53:38
so sometimes it's
53:38
hard to kind of find even that common ground or you feel like
53:41
you're just you know
53:43
even that there's maybe a bit of judgment or whatever from
53:45
other people when you
53:46
share something about the way that you used to live which is
53:49
like i mean because
53:50
it's the you know it's meant to be the the loving hospital of
53:54
mercy and you know or
53:55
SPEAKER_00: you kill the fattened calf when the one who wandered come back and uh
54:00
SPEAKER_00: you know, versus the 99 who didn't wander.
54:02
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, no, I do see that.
54:04
And I think there's a cultural element of like being part of a
54:08
cultural group
54:09
SPEAKER_00: versus actually like,
54:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
54:12
SPEAKER_00: a path of transformation or taking that on seriously.
54:15
And I think those two things kind of exist at the same time,
54:19
often in the same places,
54:21
weirdly.
54:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:22
SPEAKER_00: So that,
54:23
SPEAKER_00: I think that can be,
54:24
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
54:25
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
54:25
SPEAKER_00: focusing,
54:26
SPEAKER_00: I guess it's finding,
54:27
SPEAKER_00: finding a place,
54:28
SPEAKER_00: isn't it?
54:28
Finding a parish or finding somewhere where that's actually a
54:32
spiritual director
54:33
SPEAKER_00: that's,
54:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
54:34
SPEAKER_00: serious about it and connecting with other people.
54:37
SPEAKER_00: I think,
54:37
SPEAKER_00: I really think the internet is just going to,
54:39
it fills in so many gaps for this kind of stuff because there
54:43
is people online that
54:44
SPEAKER_00: are very serious and that have good resources and that,
54:47
SPEAKER_00: you know,
54:48
can catechize and can practice and that I think yeah trying to
54:52
trying to bring some
54:53
of that stuff off the internet into Irish Catholicism would be
54:56
very beneficial for
54:58
people yeah for sure and this is like kind of joke that like I
55:03
get I kind of feel I
55:04
give people an opportunity to really practice their faith like
55:07
if I share something
55:09
like you know so I think like people people need to like those
55:12
who are in the in
55:13
SPEAKER_03: the faith
55:15
SPEAKER_03: need to really understand what it's like to not be in faith and to really
55:20
understand that like you know the pain like the devastation
55:25
that's out there like
55:26
in the darkness and that like Satan is really you know he's
55:31
really got a hold on
55:32
people and so there's a real there's a lot of suffering and you
55:36
know like we
55:38
SPEAKER_03: obviously want people to come into the faith because we know like
55:41
the truth of it and we know like how just like transformative
55:45
it's been and just
55:46
like yeah it makes you just it just can transform your life and
55:49
I'd say like I'm
55:49
totally changed but I'm also more myself than I've ever been so
55:54
you just want that
55:55
for people particularly you know when I see like women who are
55:59
very similar you
56:00
SPEAKER_03: know to how I used to be
56:03
SPEAKER_03: And so I know how, like, I know what they're going through.
56:06
SPEAKER_03: I know the darkness and the suffering.
56:10
But,
56:10
you know,
56:10
to also know then that it's difficult to kind of get to this
56:15
point.
56:15
And so I think we need to be aware of that and to be kind of as
56:20
open and as
56:21
SPEAKER_03: compassionate as we possibly can for those kind of people.
56:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, really like a field hospital for bringing people in out of that.
56:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
56:33
a lot of the research I do on social media and stuff
56:35
disproportionately affects
56:36
young women and like the statistics on like the mental health
56:39
crisis in young women
56:40
SPEAKER_00: are crazy.
56:41
SPEAKER_00: Like it's like 33% of young women have had mental health,
56:47
SPEAKER_00: either depression or anxiety in the last year.
56:48
SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, such high numbers that would be, yeah, I mean...
56:56
so it's not sustainable like um but it is women have become
57:00
kind of a battleground
57:01
i think for those different kind of yeah there's a lot of
57:04
forces trying to pull
57:05
them different ways you know um and i think yeah if the church
57:11
can genuinely offer
57:12
that that love and that understanding and that home then that's
57:17
that it that'll win
57:18
SPEAKER_00: in the end um
57:20
SPEAKER_00: But I suppose in the meantime, you know, it's rough out there.
57:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.
57:28
But yeah,
57:29
but I think that's like where the church then has a real
57:33
opportunity at the moment.
57:34
SPEAKER_03: And even it's,
57:35
SPEAKER_03: I suppose,
57:35
SPEAKER_03: just kind of promoting even more things,
57:38
SPEAKER_03: I suppose,
57:39
even just like with like theology of the body and just like
57:42
understanding what it
57:43
is to be a woman and understanding the relationship between men
57:47
and women.
57:48
um and like just kind of helping people to come to know what's
57:52
already in the faith
57:54
so um and even just things with like fertility and natural
57:58
family planning and um
58:00
you know and even like for for women like learning about like
58:04
their cycles and how
58:05
SPEAKER_03: that can like also be like a path to holiness and i think so it's
58:08
SPEAKER_03: the riches that are already there in the church,
58:10
SPEAKER_03: like if we're able to just actually communicate that in a way,
58:13
SPEAKER_00: um,
58:14
SPEAKER_03: that can reach,
58:15
SPEAKER_03: you know,
58:16
SPEAKER_03: the secular people.
58:17
SPEAKER_03: And I think,
58:18
SPEAKER_03: you know,
58:18
SPEAKER_03: like,
58:19
SPEAKER_03: you know,
58:19
SPEAKER_03: like myself and like sharing like that,
58:21
SPEAKER_03: where I've come from and actually like what it,
58:24
SPEAKER_03: you know,
58:25
SPEAKER_03: and maybe,
58:26
SPEAKER_03: you know,
58:26
SPEAKER_03: helping people to actually understand what it is to,
58:28
SPEAKER_03: to practice or to,
58:30
SPEAKER_03: to be a Catholic and to,
58:31
SPEAKER_03: to have Jesus in your life.
58:32
SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, I think that's, um,
58:34
SPEAKER_03: It's really important in being able to speak to people as well.
58:38
Yeah,
58:39
if only there was a Substack on that topic that people could
58:44
check out.
58:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a working progress.
58:50
Well,
58:51
yeah,
58:51
if you're willing to share it with people,
58:53
I'll include the link below.
58:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I haven't.
58:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's there.
58:57
SPEAKER_03: I haven't necessarily published anything on it yet,
59:00
SPEAKER_03: but it's Truth of the Womb is the kind of name that I'm going by,
59:06
SPEAKER_03: so.
59:06
SPEAKER_00: But you're definitely on to Zantapala.
59:08
SPEAKER_00: I think you've had a real hero's journey.
59:09
SPEAKER_00: I found it so inspiring to hear.
59:12
And I think it's probably hard for people to imagine the demons
59:15
that you fought on that journey.
59:17
SPEAKER_00: But having come from,
59:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
59:20
SPEAKER_00: some of those places myself,
59:21
I have a lot of appreciation for what you've done and your
59:24
bravery and talking
59:26
SPEAKER_00: about it and sharing with others.
59:27
SPEAKER_00: So I really thank you for this conversation.
59:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's been great.
59:33
SPEAKER_03: Thanks.