Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Defining Sexuality. Or not, with Claudia Johnson, MA, LMFT, CST, ABS

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Defining Sexuality. Or not, with Claudia Johnson, MA, LMFT, CST, ABS · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Guy McPherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show. Five, four, three, two,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: and one. Our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Super
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: excited to have as my guest today, Claudia Johnson. Claudia, welcome.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: to be here.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Awesome. Claudia is a licensed marriage and family therapist. a
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: certified sex therapist and owner and clinical director of PNW
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Sex Therapy Collective in Seattle. A thought leader on sexuality,
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: modern relationships, and mental health, her work explores the intersection
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: of sex, identity, power, and psychological well-being. She examines how
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: cultural narratives, social expectations, and systemic inequities influence desire, attachment, burnout,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: and relational satisfaction, particularly within multicultural, multiracial, and consensually non-monogamous relationships.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: In addition to her clinical and research work, she serves
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: as president-elect of the Washington Association for Marriage and Family
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Therapy and is completing her PhD in human sexuality at
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: the California Institute of Integral Studies. I was reading your
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: bio and I was like, okay, that sounds like a
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: dissertation language. It says I'm very specific, but super excited
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: to have you here. Welcome.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Can you tell I've been in school for years?
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: I can tell. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. So look,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: before we get going, share with the listeners where you're
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: from originally and where you are currently. Yes.
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: So I was born and raised in Mexico City. So
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: I'm originally from Mexico. And then I moved to the
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: States in, oh my gosh, 2016.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: So, ayo, my 10 year anniversary is coming up soon.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: And I moved here because my better half is American.
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: So I had to navigate all the joyful ways in
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: which I have to, well, I had to prove that
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: we were really in love and that I wasn't trying
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: to do anything naughty.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: I can't, I can't imagine. I think people who don't
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: have to go through that process just can't fathom how
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: crazy that must be. But another, for another time, another podcast.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: All right, look, really interesting, uh, background and interests and
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: which is one of the reasons why I wanted to
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: bring you on here. So how did all this start
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: for you, Claudia?
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, going back to the beginning, right?
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Go back. I don't know.
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: I'm sure this is something that happens to a lot
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: of folks who end up in this line of work,
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: but people always gravitated towards me and told me things
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: that I was like, wow.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: They feel really comfortable with me.
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: And, um, growing up in, in Mexico, the reality is,
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: you know, sexuality is still taboo as, as much as
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: it is here, I would argue. Um, In Mexico, even
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: if you're not Catholic, we all joke that everyone's 100%
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: Guadalupano because, you know, the Virgin Mary had an apparition there,
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: so we all.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: Believe in her.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: So it's a very interesting, like, religion-slash-spirituality, a lot of
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: indigenous practices. It's a melting pot of beliefs and different
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: types of experiencing faith, I would say.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: But sexuality was no-no, so.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: This is something that a lot of my clients also
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: talk about with me, which is you grow up and
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: you're not supposed to know anything or do anything. But
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: then you get married and you somehow have everything figured out.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: And as my friends were doing all the naughty things
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: that no one was supposed to do, they were telling
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: me all these stories and they were telling me how
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: they were feeling and what was going on for them.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: So I ended up being just the shoulder to cry on,
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: the ear that would always listen. And I realized this
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: is my calling. And it's a really interesting path because
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: in Mexico, you only really got one shot, which.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Is to be a psychologist.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: And I've always been really passionate about how we learn
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: and why we learn what we learn. So I always
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: debated between psychology and another area, which is pedagogy.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: And, um, what is that? Or pedagogy, I guess I'm
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: pronouncing it. Um, and I.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: Realized I really wanted to do that because I was
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: really interested in how our brains process information, how we learn,
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: what is the best way in which people can learn.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: And in my program, there was at the end, there
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: was a specialty called Psycho pedagogy. So that was like
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: the little bit more of psychoeducation and how our brains work.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: That was like, this is it.
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: And then I always wanted to teach. I'm a teacher
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: at heart. So I was really passionate about it. And
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: I was like, I feel like I need to be
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: a teacher, even for a little bit. So I started
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: teaching at an elementary school. Well, it was a Catholic school,
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: all girls school. And I realized like, these kiddos are great.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: it's actually the parents that need a little more support. So,
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: you know me, I'm like, I love learning. So I
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: was like, what is the next thing I can do?
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: And there's another program, and again, very religious in nature
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: because most of the important college schools, I would say
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: colleges in Mexico, they're still supported by some religious organization.
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: And there was one in particular that was founded by
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: John Paul II, which is called Family Sciences. And that
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: was like the closest thing I could find to marriage
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: and family therapy without knowing that was a thing. And
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: I completed that BA and it was really interesting because
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: it had a very strong foundation on biology, medicine, spirituality, law.
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: I had a lot of classes on canonic law to
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: better support Catholic families. And it just opened up my
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: eyes to a completely different perspective. So once I did
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: that and I started having a little bit more like
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: parent-teacher meetings, I realized like, this is it. This is
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: it for me. And long story short, totally ridiculous Hallmark movie.
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: I met my husband on a plane. So it was
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: random and it was awesome. And yeah, we weren't from
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: the same country. So then we started dating long distance.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: And by then I had started thinking about what was
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: next for me. So my idea was to go to Eugene,
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: to the university in Oregon to do a MFT program.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: And then he said.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: I'm in Oregon, by the way.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: Well, we could have been neighbors.
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: But let me pause you right here, Claudia, before we
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: move on. During this time or before this time, what
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: was your upbringing like? What was your family life like? Yeah. What?
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: Well, I was very fortunate and very blessed that my
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: parents' experience of religion and how they lived their faith
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: was very, I would say, very grounded in the sense
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: that we have to go to church every Sunday. And
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: my parents, Well, this was actually my dad. One day
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: I was really sad and upset because we couldn't go
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: to church on Sunday. And I was like, God is
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: going to be really upset with me that I didn't
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: go to church. And my dad just like came closer
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: to me and he said, honey, church is in your
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: heart and God is here.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: You can talk to him anytime.
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: And that's kind of a really great example of my upbringing.
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: So my parents are really.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: really chill. They always said, hey, your one responsibility is
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: to be a good student. Like, that's your job. Everything else,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: we'll figure it out.
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: So with that, they gave me a lot of liberties
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: in the sense that if I wanted to try something
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: out or maybe start an after school something, they'd be like, we're.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: Here for it.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: And at the same time, when I started dating, it
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: was like, don't do it.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So it was like an unspoken, like, you're not
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: going to do that till you get married, right?
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Okay. You can date, but don't do that. Don't do that. Okay.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: So that was my upbringing. And it was really interesting.
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: It kind of came full circle when I was teaching
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: at that school.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: And I had a girl one Monday that she was crying.
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: And I was like, honey, why are you crying? She's like, well,
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: my parents didn't take me to church on Sunday. And
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: it literally felt like, so I was able to tap
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: into my dad's voice and say, hey, Church is in
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: your heart and you can always talk to God anytime
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: you want.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: So I don't know. It's just like really sweet. And
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: I knew I was like on the right path.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: All right. So you're on the plane. You meet your
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: future husband. Okay. How do things progress for you professionally?
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: What's going on?
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So once we.
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: started dating and we realized like this is pretty serious
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: and we got to figure out what's the next thing
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: for us which was navigating the whole.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: Immigration system in the U.S.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: Um I had always like thought about pursuing a master's
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: because I had two BAs one in pedagogy and one
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: in family sciences and I wanted my master's.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: And I was like well if I'm eventually gonna move
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: to the U.S.
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: Um Marriage and family therapy is what I always wanted
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: to do that I didn't know it existed.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Like, this is it.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: This is what I need to do.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: So I was looking at programs. You're doing this fantastic.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: And I applied and I was like, I'm just going
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: to shoot my shot. And they accepted me. And they
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: were like, we really like you. Would you mind staying
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: for a PhD? And I was like, this is wild.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: And then my husband was like, I don't want to
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: date long distance anymore. Can we figure something else out?
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: So that's when I was like, now I have to
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: take another leap of faith and realize that, yeah, I mean,
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: I would have to put my dream on hold for
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: a little bit, but Once I became a Washington resident,
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: it would quite frankly be a lot less than being
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: an international student. So then that's how I ended up
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: going to Antioch University Seattle because they had a really
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: cool MFT program.
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  Speaker 2: And this has been the story of my life.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: I just flow like water. I joke with my friends,
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: but I'm like, I'm just letting myself be and I don't.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: Know where I'm going to end.
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: And once I started that Antioch program, right after I
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: finished or completed my first quarter there, they launched the
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: sex therapy certification. I didn't know it was like in
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: the works. And then they said, Hey, we're launching this.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: And I was like, how do I join? Like, this is,
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: this makes so much sense.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: And I'm so curious and I want to do this. How?
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Okay. Why, why did it make so much sense? Why
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: were you curious? Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: It made me think of all the conversations I had
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: with my friends growing up, especially as a teenager, you know,
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: high school, it was like.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: Reese's was tea town. Everybody was feeling tea. And, um,
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  Speaker 2: It just made sense because I was like, I want
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: to work with couples.
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: And by that time, well, I think still in that program,
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: you only get one human sexuality class. So I was like,
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: I specifically want to work with couples, different relationships. How
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: come nobody's talking about sexuality? It just didn't make sense
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: in my brain. So when it was.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: Offered, I was like, I want to join. How do
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: I do this? And they were like, you're too young.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: You're too new.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: You need to complete more classes before you can join.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: And I think I was really good at advocating. My
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: dad is a lawyer, so I guess I have it
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: in my DNA. And I made a really good argument
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: why they should let me in. And I could take
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: the classes concurrently, and I was going to make it work.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: And they said, okay, fine, you can join. So I
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: was the first cohort that came out of that program.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: What is, on a basic level, for our audience, not
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: for me, I know all this. I'm joking completely. But
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: what is, when you talk about sexuality, I want to
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: study sexuality, what does that mean?
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: That is such a great question because I feel like
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: all my friends were like, you're doing what?
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: What does that mean?
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: And the best way I can describe it in my
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: own words, I mean, after doing this work, this is
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: how I would say it, is And I joke, so
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: maybe I'll get a good laugh out of you. But
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: I honestly view sexuality, and I always think of that
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: scene in The Lion King where everything the light touches.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: But that part? Sexuality is everything the light touches and
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: that part. That, like, I don't know, what was it,
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: the elephant? All of those skeletons that were there. It
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: is everything.
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: Who you are as a person, how you identify yourself,
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: how you view yourself, how you relate to others. It
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: all boils down to sexuality. Like how much space you
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: can take. Do you take the lead?
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: Do you don't?
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: Like all these things are impacted by sexuality. So to
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: not address it or to set it aside.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: But what is it?
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: What is it?
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Is it having sex? Is it who we're attracted to?
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: I think in general people have a very narrow view
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: of what sex is. And one of the best like
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: interventions I have with all my clients when they start
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: working with me is I just have them create their
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: own definitions of five little simple words.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: Love, sex, intimacy, desire, and connection. I'm like, take it.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: Go for it. I want to hear. Come up with
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: your individual ones and then co-create yours. It can take sessions.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: They.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: For some of them, it's like very biological. Well, sex
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: is penetration.
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, okay, where did you learn that? Is
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: that all that there is? So for me, even expanding
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: on it, sex, what is sex, right? And when they
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: work with me, they realize sex is not just penetration.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: Sex is not just intimacy. Sex is safety, connection, how
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: you view yourself, the relationship you have with your body,
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: what you believe, your dreams, your goals, your aspirations.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: To me, that is everything the light touches.
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: It can be boiled down to sexuality because it's the
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: most pure, intimate part.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: Of your being. The one that you share with the
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: people that you love the most.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Which can be contrasted with, say, gender. Yeah. Right. So
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: I've heard, and correct me if I'm wrong here, someone,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: there's a saying like gender is, oh, what is it?
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Gender is.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Who you identify as and sex is, like, who you
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: go to bed with.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Something like that. Yes.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: I would say yes and, and that is my narrative
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: self coming through.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: If we go from this idea that gender is a
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: social construct, right, and then what defines gender is... What
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: you do, how you dress, how you operate, even like
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: what your body looks like. And then that's when it
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: starts getting tricky, right? Because then we're thinking about biological sex.
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: And what does that mean? Is it the tone of voice?
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: How tall you are?
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: Is it only your chromosomes, right?
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: So it gets really complicated. And to me, just sex
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: cannot be boiled down to biology or expression or even performative.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: I am so interested in exploring and studying performance. performative sex. Like,
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: where did we learn that? But it's not just that.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: So how you were saying gender, gender is how you
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: identify yourself and sex is who you go to bed with.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: I would say, and could it be more than that?
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Is it just who you go to bed with?
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: I would say no.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Well, if it's not, if sexuality isn't who you go
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: to bed with, What else is it? But as you said,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: and I agree with, it incorporates all those different things,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: safety and intimacy that comes into it. But if it's
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: more than that, what is it? What's the more part?
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: It's not just who you go to bed with and
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: the act of being physical and intimate with someone or yourself,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: for example.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: I love that you said that because I was going
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: to say, what if you just go to bed with yourself?
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: Is that, I don't know, does that, does it count?
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: Because for some people it wouldn't count, right? Unless there's
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: another party and there's penetrative sex.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: I'm like, well, then there's a bunch of.
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: Relationships that wouldn't count as them having sex because, you know,
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: penetration won't be what we think about body parts touching.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Well, if we agree that sex, sex isn't, doesn't have
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: to include the penetration part. It can include being physically
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: intimate with someone. Yeah. Where does the definition begin to end?
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: Oh, I love how you think. And my therapist self
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: is coming up. He's like, what does having a particular
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: container definition.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: Do for you?
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Well, for the sake of this discussion, because you're saying
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: and more. I'm trying to know what is more. Where's
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: the more? I.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: Again, depending on how we construct or like how expansive
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: our definition is, to me, sexuality and intimacy and love,
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: like they're all melted together.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: So if you are, I don't know.
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: If a friend of yours is going through something and
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: you're thinking about them and maybe you're creating this care
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: package for them, right?
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Could that be not really intimate? Does that doesn't count?
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: Is it only because who you're partnered with that that's
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: the only thing that counts as sex? And I'm like,
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: People can have casual sex. They're not in relationships or,
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: I don't know, like.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Romanticism, platonic. But casual sex, you can have casual sex.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: You can have sex with someone you love as your partner.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: But that's sex.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: According to folks.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Okay. All right. I'm like....
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: Should I give you my definition, which is still a
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: work in progress? Because the more I do this work,
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: the more I'm like, wow. Every time somebody shares something,
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I wasn't expecting that. And yeah, that's a
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: really compelling case of why that should also count. So
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: I try to move away from definitions and just lead
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: with curiosity because I want to make sure that people
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: have the freedom and the capacity and the permission to define.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: It however it's for them. I think that's great, but
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: I also think definitions are helpful. Because look, we're doing
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: a podcast. People are listening to this. We have words
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: that mean certain things. And yes, they don't need to
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: be constructed with brick walls around them. They can be porous.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: But it helps to move forward with a kind of
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: understanding about what is sexuality? Because it is different kind
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: of than gender. We're not talking about we're talking about
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: different things that mean different things. okay so i got
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: sexuality is who we engage with on a physical intimate
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: level i.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: Like that that that would be putting it in really
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: lovely terms um when okay.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: I'll try my best i'll.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: Gender, to me, is a way you express yourself depending
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: on how you view yourself or who you think you are.
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: And you know that you are. And you allow others
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: to be a part of that. You invite them in.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: They may like it and agree with it and they
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: may not. And that doesn't take away the fact.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Of you are who you are.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: May I also add identify as?
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: I think that's important. Yeah.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, who you are, right?
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: Who you are, that would be that identity. Whether that is,
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: you know, a lot of folks have really hard time
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: with non-binary. And I'm like, why are we making this
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: a thing? But yeah, be like, this is how I
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: view myself. And I'm going to dress the way that
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: appeals to me, not the way you think non-binary people
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: should dress like, right? And that is how you present
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: yourself and how you allow others to engage with you
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: because that's what you're putting out. I would say sexuality
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: is very similar in how you allow others in.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: But maybe I like what you said in terms of
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: the intimacy and like physical aspect. I'm like, sure.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: Something where you're connecting with another person or reaching out
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: to another person and the other person's like, hey, I'm
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: here with you. And I like what you're putting out
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: and I'm kind of digging this.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: I'd be like, okay, sure. And then whatever that looks like, right?
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: Not just penetration like we said, but it could be
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: really heavy petting. It could be an amazing makeout session.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: If you want to count that as sex and you
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: agree that that's the correct meaning, I'm like, I'm here
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: for it.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say, well, that doesn't count because.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Right, right, right. Okay. All right. So you obviously are
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: very interested in this. Yes. You start doing this program.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: What happens? How do things unfold for you?
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I started doing this program.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: And then, like, my mind expanded because I wasn't aware.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: I had a very narrow view, and I think a
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: lot of folks do, you know, after 50 shades of
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: gray around, like, kink. And it was really interesting to
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: me as I was learning about this, like, how wrong
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: all those ideas were and that representation was. because there's
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: so much consent and agreement and a lot of conversations
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: that I'm like, wow, if more people interacted in that
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: way and converse in that way and co-created really awesome
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: sexual experiences together, like, I was like.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: We wouldn't exist the way we do.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: So it really opened up my eyes to all flavors
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: and colors of desires and what gets people like ticking
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: and there's a really important like phrase that we use,
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: like don't yuck anyone's yum, which because of my upbringing.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: I had a lot of, Oh, that's not okay. Why
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: would people? And then that was like my own inner work.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: It's not about me. Right. If there are two consenting adults.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: Why do, why do I have, why do I need
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: to have a say or why do I have feelings
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: about this?
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: It's not up to me.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Well, that's a very interesting question. And I think a
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: lot of us do that. We yuck other people's yums.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: We become very judgmental. And that reveals more about us, right?
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: Our insecurities, our ignorance, our uncomfortabilities. So what do you
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: do when you graduate this program? Are you thinking, or
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: even before, are you thinking, this is the field, this
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: is my specialization, I love this, and if so, why?
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: As I was about to complete the program, one of
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: the last classes was, how do you integrate what you
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: have learned in the certification into your MFT identity, persona,
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: the models that you have chosen or that you want
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: to specialize in? And it was a really interesting... work
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: assignment for me because I realized yeah I mean I
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: have this this curiosity maybe a little bit more extensive
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: knowledge on certain things but I always operate from a
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: perspective of I don't want to turn people away or
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: make them feel like they should know so I really
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: I'm really led by my clients so to me how
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: I envision my work is once I'm out of school
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: I'm going to be working I thought I'm going to
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: be working with couples that's what I thought and then
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: I started working with couples and then some individuals would
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: come along and be like, Hey, you know, I would
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: love support in my gender identity exploration. Or I would
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: have folks that say, Hey, I have sexual related concerns, right?
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: Like I have maybe erectile disappointment and my partner's really
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: upset with me.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: And I'd be like, you can never do not relational work.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: And that's a double negative.
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: I don't know how that works, but I'm like, you're
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: always doing relational work, especially when you're.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: Talking about sexuality, because Yeah, it involves other people, right?
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: And their expectations of you or the hopes that you've co-created.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: So to me, I was like, wow, the more I
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: do this work, the more I realize that just opening
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: up the floor or for folks to know, hey, you're
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: a sex therapist.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: What is that?
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: Even clients when they're consulting with me and just saying,
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: it's honestly anything you want it to look like, because
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: we will go at your own pace. If you have questions,
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: I will probably have some answers. I can share some
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: psychoeducation with you, but ultimately it's about what this means
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: to you.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: And what you want out of it. So I just
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: realized like, yeah, this is my passion. This is what
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: I love. And I don't, I, I also think it
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: should be fun and maybe that's my own stuff, but yeah,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: I just have.
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: So much fun with people because they're like, well, I
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: don't know. When I was a teenager, I kind of
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: watched this and it was like really interesting, but.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Like, but I don't want to do it, but I
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: want to tell you about it. And I'm like, let's,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: about it and that's how yeah that's how people.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: Start rewriting maybe those previous like that should be a
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: yuck right i'm like why am i gonna tell you
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: that what do you think.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: So there is it is there still like a stigma
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: around sex therapy i think people think you're a sex
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: therapist oh you're gonna help this person have sex with
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: this other person or You're going to have sex with
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: this other person while their partner is in the room.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I try my hardest.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: As a sex therapist to be as outspoken and open
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: about it so that people better understand. And the easiest
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: way or the way I like to tell clients where
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: they're a little confused and maybe they're asking for things that,
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: of course, I can't offer. I just tell them, hey,
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: this is psychotherapy services. This is mental health talk services,
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: talk therapy. I never touch my clients. Clothes never come off.
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: This is just we are talking about the things that
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: maybe you wouldn't feel super comfortable talking to.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Maybe you're a regular therapist, which has happened. Like, I've
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: been in therapy for years and my therapist never asked
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: me about, you know, sex.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, well, let's talk about it. So, yeah,
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: sometimes folks are, you know, they see the website and
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: they're like, hey, how does that work? Do you come
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: to my house?
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: I'm like, no, that's not how it works. Um, so yeah,
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: there is no hands-on.
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: There are incredible professionals, practitioners who do that work and
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: they're the sexological body workers and they have extensive training
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: and there are folks that can do hands-on work. We
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: are talk therapists.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: So what we do is we utilize.
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: Our modalities and our expertise and our education to support
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: folks when they're experiencing distress or anxiety because maybe they're
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: performing anxiety or they have experienced a traumatic.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: You know, sexual experience or abuse in different ways.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: And now it's impacting their current relationships or they think,
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: or sometimes they think, Hey, I don't want to have sex.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Something's wrong with me. And I'm like, does it have
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: to be?
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: Cause also my gray sexuals and asexual folks carry so
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: much like weight and pain.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Cause they're like, you said gray sexual. Yeah.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: It's like the spectrum.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: What does that mean?
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: It's just, I mean, there's so many different combinations. There
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: are folks who identify as A's, but they'd be open to.
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: There are others that don't. Others that only experience romantic
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: attraction or platonic attraction. There's just so many different ways
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: and flavors to experience oneself in relationship to other humans
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: that we have this idea.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Of you as a human being should want to have
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: sex with people. And the reality is that's not the
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: case for everyone.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: So another example would be demisexuals who need to feel
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: a strong connection and feel safe and secure in an
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: established relationship before they can think about engaging in sexuality.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: So they think something is wrong because their partner is
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: trying to initiate it.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: They're like, I don't want to have sex.
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: So there's just different ways in which people open up
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: to the idea of sharing maybe their bodies with another
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: human if they want that.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: And a lot of this seems to be perpetuated by
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: our culture, right? Or our culture or the culture in
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: which one grows up.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. In the religious background that we have, yeah.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Claudia, this is fascinating. Seriously.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: I love that. I love that you love it.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: It's fascinating. Well, I love– I really like– you said
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: you like the way I whatever think or something. I
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: love the way you think because it's– you don't say, okay,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: this is the definition. Guy, I'm going to give you
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: a definition. You're like– No.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry I'm left.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Slow your roll there. And you're just so passionate about this.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: All right. Listen, I'm going to have to have you
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: back because we're going to have to extend this conversation
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: because there's a lot to talk about here. Before I
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: ask you what is the best way for people to
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: get to find out more about you, before I ask
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: you that, what makes you so passionate about this topic?
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: And what allows you to do this work with such
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: fervor and intensity, I would say?
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: I would say the biggest thing for me is.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: When clients tell me, like, I used to think this
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: about myself and now I know this about myself. To me,
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: that is like, oh, I'm on the right track. We
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: all have internalized ideas and ways of being that are
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: not predetermined by us. They're by our parents, our society,
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: our culture, our religion. And we go through life engaging
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: with others and they're saying, oh, that didn't feel super great.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: It was kind of fun, but it wasn't great. And
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: for folks to say, oh, my God, it was great.
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: however they want that to look like, not the way
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: society expects them to, or even they would think I
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: would want them to.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: To me, that's it.
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: It's the freedom to really honor what is calling you
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: and to be able to advocate for that and share
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: that passion and that desire with others.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: And then others being like, oh my gosh, I would
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: love to do that for you. To me, that is
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: why I do it.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: And I am so passionate about it because I wholeheartedly
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: believe that everyone on this earth should be having fun
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: and playing with their friends, with their partners, with their...
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: We do that when we're kids. Play is encouraged. And
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: then we're adults and it goes out the door. I'm like,
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: I want to invite that playfulness back into our lives, especially.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Into the bedroom.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you something else. There's a second part
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: to that. During this process of your education, your journey,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: first of all, I think it takes... a lot to
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: say i want to study sexuality because a lot of
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: times people could think oh okay you want to study
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: sexuality or have have certain ideas about what that means
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: but for you during this process during what you've been
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: learning what have you been learning about yourself you know
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: what what what journey have you gone on yeah.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh i think The biggest journey for me
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: was learning more about my own.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: Sexual orientation as well as how I want to engage
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: and relate to others. Because I was like, that is
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: not okay. And I had a lot of biphobia. And
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: then through this work, I realized there's like nothing wrong
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: with it.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: So there's disbelief. And I see this with a lot
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: of my clients. They're like, well, I've never... been in
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: a relationship with for example right um a.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: Assigned male at birth a person you know will say
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: oh my gosh I I'm really into men I've never
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: been in a relationship with men I've always dated women
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: I can't call myself bi who.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: Said that where when.
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: You are who you are because you know it in
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: your heart of hearts not because of who you are
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: with and that was one big thing for me I
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: was like, wow, you know, I'm married to an incredible man.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: I still think women are hot as hell. So I'm like, okay.
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: And it took me so long to claim that identity
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: because there's so much stigma, especially as a good, you know, Catholic.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Mexican girl, like what?
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: And then for me to also unpack and learn all
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: these things about being in a straight passing relationship and
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: the privilege with that and how important it is to
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: talk about my own identity so that others can maybe
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: say wow that is also me so to me it's
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: it's kind of sharing that gift with others so it
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: helped me understand myself better um and talking about you
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: know demisexuality I was like that makes so much sense
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: to me because that's how that's how I think that's
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: how I operate that's when I feel really safe with
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: someone then I'm like oh I kind of want to
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: do this to you but it doesn't just happen like oh,
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: you're cute.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll do that too. I'm like, I couldn't think
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: of anything more horrifying. And even identifying and having a
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: definition or a word for it that could better explain it.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: I was like, oh, that makes sense. Maybe I'm on
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: this spectrum too. That doesn't have to be this way.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: So even that journey, I mean, has been healing for me,
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: but it's a mirror, right? And we do this with
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: clients and this comes up. As we're doing it, you
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: learn things about yourself and You can also share in
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: that joy when your clients are telling you.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: That they found who they are and you're like, that ding, ding,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: ding moment.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: So I love it. All right, Claudia, how do people
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: learn more about you? What's the best way? Yeah.
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: So if folks want to connect with us again, um,
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: PNW sex therapy collective, they can Google us. Uh, my
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: email is Claudia at PNW therapy collective. Um, and we're
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: on Instagram and Tik TOK. Um, We have to use
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: PNW Therapy Collective. It's a great example of why we
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: can't have sex or we get banned.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: So that's another one.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Our handle can't have sex.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Okay. We'll have all that linked up here at the
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: show notes page at the traumatherapistpodcast.com. Claudia, you are awesome.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: You have a really kind of inspiring way of sharing
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: and articulating this message Your passion, which is what? What
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: do we call it? Sexuality? Human sexuality? Yes. I'm scared
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: to use a definition here.
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: Well, it's so funny because I have my mug from
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: my program that I'm drinking from.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: What is it? Human sexuality department. I love that. That
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: would be a great t-shirt. But again, I would love
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: to have you back to continue this conversation because I
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: think it's exciting and it's needed. So I would love that.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: It would be my honor. And guy, you're so amazing.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: And I love how you think. And I love that
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: you're pushing. I'm like, I do this. It's fine all day.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. All right. We'll be in touch.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Thank you so much.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: All right. Take care.