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Transcript

You Asked, We Answered · Ctrl-Alt-Speech

• 0:07
  Ben Whitelaw: Hello and welcome to another special episode of Control Alt Speech.
• 0:11
  Ben Whitelaw: Regular listeners will know that we round up the major stories about online speech, content moderation, and internet regulation, but this week we're doing something a little bit different.
• 0:20
  Ben Whitelaw: your regular episode with Mike and I will be back in September.
• 0:24
  Ben Whitelaw: For now, we're gonna try something new.
• 0:26
  Ben Whitelaw: My name is Ben Whitelaw.
• 0:27
  Ben Whitelaw: I'm the founder and editor of Everything in Moderation, and I'm joined by Mike Masnick, founder and.
• 0:33
  Ben Whitelaw: Do you call yourself Editor of Tech Dirt?
• 0:35
  Ben Whitelaw: The kind of head honcho?
• 0:36
  Mike Masnick: Sure.
• 0:37
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 0:38
  Mike Masnick: I, I always have trouble figuring out what, what do I call myself or even, how do I describe myself?
• 0:43
  Mike Masnick: And so, you know, whenever I'm like introduced at like conferences or whatever, I always ask other people to describe me.
• 0:49
  Mike Masnick: 'cause I never know what to describe me.
• 0:50
  Mike Masnick: But yeah, like if it comes down to it, I'll say editor of tech, that that
• 0:54
  Ben Whitelaw: yeah, yeah, I think so too.
• 0:56
  Ben Whitelaw: Internet guy.
• 0:57
  Ben Whitelaw: Longtime internet guy, uh, also works.
• 1:01
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, good to see you again.
• 1:02
  Ben Whitelaw: it's been a few weeks since we recorded.
• 1:04
  Ben Whitelaw: our last episode was, a little bit different.
• 1:07
  Ben Whitelaw: We talked a bit about the podcast, how we came together, what the last 18 months have been like, and kind of looked forward as to the future of the podcast.
• 1:15
  Ben Whitelaw: And we got some really nice responses from folks who, who have listened thank you to those who took the time to listen.
• 1:22
  Ben Whitelaw: And send in some thoughts.
• 1:24
  Ben Whitelaw: one in particular, Mike.
• 1:26
  Ben Whitelaw: well, a couple that I wanted to flag.
• 1:27
  Ben Whitelaw: one user on Blue Sky who shall remain nameless, criticize the amount of time we spent on episode titles.
• 1:37
  Ben Whitelaw: Which if for people who didn't listen to the last episode, we spend a bunch of time trying to come up with clever titles that we think kind of summarize the, you know, the complexities of the episode.
• 1:48
  Ben Whitelaw: we were promptly told in no uncertain terms, stop doing that.
• 1:53
  Ben Whitelaw: It doesn't add anything.
• 1:54
  Ben Whitelaw: I disagree, but I dunno how you feel about it
• 1:57
  Mike Masnick: yeah.
• 1:57
  Mike Masnick: No, I disagree too.
• 1:58
  Mike Masnick: And that, that person was basically saying that they don't look at the, titles.
• 2:02
  Mike Masnick: and it's somebody I know too, so like, I, I don't, we're not being mean here.
• 2:06
  Mike Masnick: Uh, because, you know, I'm sure you'll listen to this as well.
• 2:09
  Mike Masnick: We're not gonna name you, we're not gonna call you out.
• 2:11
  Mike Masnick: but it was basically like, I don't even look at the titles and like, I get it.
• 2:14
  Mike Masnick: Some people don't.
• 2:15
  Mike Masnick: And I think maybe, maybe there was a.
• 2:17
  Mike Masnick: A false implication in the way that we described the process when we had that discussion that it wasn't a fun process.
• 2:24
  Mike Masnick: It's a really fun process that I really enjoy.
• 2:28
  Mike Masnick: And yes, we put work into it and time, but I think, it's part of the fun.
• 2:33
  Mike Masnick: And we did get a bunch of people who responded to that actually saying, no, no, wait.
• 2:36
  Mike Masnick: Like the titles are great.
• 2:38
  Mike Masnick: Like we really like the titles, so.
• 2:40
  Mike Masnick: As an aside, if you listen to this podcast and you do not look at the titles, please go look at the titles.
• 2:46
  Mike Masnick: We put a lot of work into them.
• 2:48
  Mike Masnick: We think they're kind of funny and fairly clever, and we're very proud of them and we know that a lot of other people.
• 2:54
  Mike Masnick: We do get a lot of responses actually from people who really like the titles.
• 2:58
  Mike Masnick: So we hear from a lot of people, I understand some people don't ever look at podcast titles.
• 3:02
  Mike Masnick: That's fine.
• 3:04
  Mike Masnick: But for us, it's part of the process and we know for some of you that you enjoy it.
• 3:08
  Mike Masnick: So we will continue to do that even though someone suggested a friend suggested that maybe we could save a little time by not doing it.
• 3:16
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah.
• 3:16
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah.
• 3:16
  Ben Whitelaw: I just, I just with the, uh, about the criticism, it's maybe a compliment that this person and maybe others don't look at the episode titles and still listen.
• 3:24
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, so I, I think that's a, a fair response.
• 3:27
  Ben Whitelaw: A a couple of other folks we had talked about on the podcast ways of funding the podcast going forward, we have come to the end of a, a small pot of funding that we've used to do.
• 3:38
  Ben Whitelaw: The first year, of the podcast, and it's allowed us to kind of, get the software and, pay our producer Lee and, pay towards some of our time.
• 3:47
  Ben Whitelaw: And we were thinking about ways of making sure that we can continue this in a stable way.
• 3:51
  Ben Whitelaw: And Patreon came up in a couple of suggestions.
• 3:54
  Ben Whitelaw: yeah, some folks were, were saying that they paid just to hear us say, anything that we felt was interesting that they, they said that they disliked our voices so.
• 4:02
  Ben Whitelaw: But I don't think we're gonna start, just rambling into a microphone and, and putting up on Patreon.
• 4:07
  Ben Whitelaw: but it was nice to hear from, from people who, were keen to get a bit more from us potentially behind the scenes in the future.
• 4:12
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 4:12
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 4:13
  Mike Masnick: Very, very interesting response.
• 4:14
  Mike Masnick: We really appreciate everyone who's reached out since, since that episode came out.
• 4:19
  Mike Masnick: and, uh, you know, we're, we're talking to lots of people and we're exploring a lot of options in terms of, you know, what we're gonna do to keep, the podcast going.
• 4:27
  Mike Masnick: And so we're, I think happy to hear from so many people who were interested.
• 4:32
  Mike Masnick: And, if you're listening to this and you're in a position to help us keep the podcast going, please reach out as well.
• 4:39
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah, that includes, folks who are from companies who are interested in sponsoring the podcast.
• 4:45
  Ben Whitelaw: We've had a, a few people come via the website in the last few weeks, control alt speech.com/sponsorship if you want to know more.
• 4:52
  Ben Whitelaw: And yeah, it's, been a really like positive response from folks.
• 4:55
  Ben Whitelaw: So thanks for everyone who got in touch.
• 4:58
  Ben Whitelaw: We've also had some.
• 4:59
  Ben Whitelaw: Reviews actually since the last time we spoke, Mike.
• 5:03
  Ben Whitelaw: which is not something we've been able to say for a while.
• 5:05
  Ben Whitelaw: and I've got a bit of, I've got a bit of beef about the reviews, I'll be
• 5:09
  Mike Masnick: Oh yeah.
• 5:10
  Ben Whitelaw: and, and, and some kind of, a bit of a
• 5:12
  Mike Masnick: You, you can't, you can't have a beef about reviews.
• 5:14
  Mike Masnick: You have to be nice to the people who review us.
• 5:17
  Ben Whitelaw: Well, let me, let me start with this one.
• 5:20
  Ben Whitelaw: you'll understand why I have some beef about this one.
• 5:23
  Ben Whitelaw: I'm just gonna read the first couple of paragraphs.
• 5:25
  Ben Whitelaw: It's, I dunno how many, it's probably 150 words in length.
• 5:28
  Ben Whitelaw: I'm gonna, I'm going to just read it to you.
• 5:30
  Ben Whitelaw: It starts, if there's one podcast I never miss, it's control alt speech.
• 5:34
  Ben Whitelaw: Great start.
• 5:35
  Ben Whitelaw: Love it.
• 5:36
  Ben Whitelaw: No qualms.
• 5:38
  Ben Whitelaw: This is a rare show that consistently hits the perfect balance between sharp analysis, grounded nuance, and just the right amount of snark.
• 5:45
  Ben Whitelaw: Lovely.
• 5:46
  Ben Whitelaw: That's
• 5:46
  Mike Masnick: I have no beef with this,
• 5:48
  Ben Whitelaw: No, no.
• 5:49
  Ben Whitelaw: And you will not.
• 5:51
  Ben Whitelaw: This is, this is where I have an issue.
• 5:53
  Ben Whitelaw: Mike Masnick doesn't just host the conversation.
• 5:56
  Ben Whitelaw: He elevates it.
• 5:59
  Ben Whitelaw: Mike Masnick nothing.
• 6:01
  Ben Whitelaw: Nothing about Ben
• 6:02
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 6:05
  Ben Whitelaw: His insight into the intersections of speech policy and technology is unmatched.
• 6:10
  Ben Whitelaw: He connects the dots between court rulings, platform decisions, and global trends in a way that somehow leaves you smarter without ever feeling like you're in a lecturer.
• 6:17
  Ben Whitelaw: I'm thinking I'm gonna be introduced in a second, but then it goes on and honesty, he's kind of my spirit animal.
• 6:24
  Ben Whitelaw: What?
• 6:28
  Mike Masnick: Oh
• 6:29
  Ben Whitelaw: What is going on?
• 6:31
  Ben Whitelaw: Does this person ever listen to the podcast?
• 6:32
  Ben Whitelaw: Does he not know that there are two people who do it?
• 6:37
  Ben Whitelaw: It goes on.
• 6:38
  Ben Whitelaw: I, I can't even, I can't even bring myself to read the last two paragraphs stuff about there's no lazy, hot takes, no false balance.
• 6:45
  Ben Whitelaw: It sounds a bit, it sounds a bit AI generated.
• 6:48
  Ben Whitelaw: I'll be honest.
• 6:48
  Ben Whitelaw: And then I did the most basic of sleuthing and I looked at the, the name of the reviewer and it all became very
• 6:57
  Mike Masnick: Uh oh.
• 6:58
  Ben Whitelaw: The reviewer's name is O Mico.
• 7:03
  Ben Whitelaw: Which Mike, let's, is that not your
• 7:06
  Mike Masnick: That is not my pseudonym.
• 7:08
  Mike Masnick: I have
• 7:09
  Ben Whitelaw: that not be a
• 7:09
  Mike Masnick: with this.
• 7:10
  Mike Masnick: This is, look, if I was going to write a fake review and, you know, pump up my own, ego, I would not put it under my own name.
• 7:21
  Ben Whitelaw: Which is exactly what somebody who has done that would
• 7:24
  Mike Masnick: I, this is not me.
• 7:26
  Mike Masnick: This is not me.
• 7:27
  Mike Masnick: It is a very, very nice review.
• 7:30
  Mike Masnick: I, agree that you should be named as well.
• 7:33
  Mike Masnick: And in fact, the, the, the point that it starts out with saying that that I don't just host the conversation, it is usually you who is hosting the conversation and prompting me to, to ramble on, aimlessly for, you know, for a good.
• 7:47
  Mike Masnick: Hour or so.
• 7:49
  Mike Masnick: Um, so yes, look, this is this podcast is, is a teamwork effort between the two of us.
• 7:56
  Mike Masnick: and so I appreciate the review.
• 7:58
  Mike Masnick: It's very, very nice.
• 7:59
  Mike Masnick: But, Ben, uh, should be named when discussing these things.
• 8:05
  Ben Whitelaw: I, I, I think all of it is true about you.
• 8:07
  Ben Whitelaw: I was just a little bit disappointed, not even to be mentioned.
• 8:12
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 8:12
  Mike Masnick: It, it does, it, it does feel a little weird.
• 8:16
  Mike Masnick: Like, it, it is, this is a stunningly nice review, and so thank you to whoever.
• 8:20
  Mike Masnick: Oh, mic low is here.
• 8:23
  Mike Masnick: Michael Low.
• 8:23
  Mike Masnick: I don't know.
• 8:24
  Ben Whitelaw: you can call your mom later and, and thank her yourself.
• 8:29
  Mike Masnick: Um, but, but yeah.
• 8:30
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 8:31
  Mike Masnick: This this is a two person operation.
• 8:33
  Mike Masnick: I mean, three person, if you include Lee, uh.
• 8:36
  Mike Masnick: and I do not deserve 100% of the credit, so, so please dial back that it's, it is very nice.
• 8:43
  Mike Masnick: But,
• 8:44
  Ben Whitelaw: is very nice.
• 8:44
  Mike Masnick: but Ben is, uh, an important, important part of the.
• 8:47
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah, I, I, uh, for now it seems only for now.
• 8:51
  Ben Whitelaw: And, but no, no, that's, that was one review.
• 8:55
  Ben Whitelaw: Uh, a couple of others, one which was also very nice, which seems a bit more, I would say human generated.
• 9:02
  Ben Whitelaw: It mentions both of us, which, which obviously is nice.
• 9:05
  Ben Whitelaw: Mike and Ben bring an invaluable level of expertise in trust and safety.
• 9:08
  Ben Whitelaw: They do a wonderful job selecting a broad variety of news stories.
• 9:11
  Ben Whitelaw: It's an easy to listen podcast.
• 9:13
  Ben Whitelaw: Very nice.
• 9:14
  Ben Whitelaw: Thank you very much for taking the time to leave that review, kind of interesting visual that I had with this review because it finishes, it's great for commutes the gym or just around the house.
• 9:27
  Ben Whitelaw: Now we've talked about.
• 9:29
  Ben Whitelaw: In very early episodes of controlled speech pe, people listening to us while they're doing the chores, that's probably something that, you know, folks do.
• 9:36
  Ben Whitelaw: we're a quite easygoing, I guess, kind of mellow listen, you know, while you're just pottering around the house.
• 9:42
  Ben Whitelaw: I didn't think that we would be the listening choice for people, you know, I don't know, bench pressing or squatting or, you know.
• 9:51
  Mike Masnick: never know.
• 9:52
  Mike Masnick: Every, everyone you know has their their own.
• 9:55
  Mike Masnick: I, I think it is fairly common for people to listen to podcasts while exercising.
• 9:59
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah.
• 10:00
  Ben Whitelaw: two thoughts.
• 10:00
  Ben Whitelaw: Do you think we should incorporate any kind of like, gym, I don't know, encouragement, you know, in between sections or, and maybe we should be expanding into a gym product, a, a new gym line.
• 10:11
  Mike Masnick: keep it up.
• 10:12
  Mike Masnick: Keep, keep sweating.
• 10:14
  Mike Masnick: You can do it.
• 10:15
  Mike Masnick: We believe in you.
• 10:17
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah, gimme another 10.
• 10:20
  Mike Masnick: Yeah, it's funny because I, I mean, I do listen to a lot of podcasts and, certainly chores and commutes.
• 10:27
  Mike Masnick: and then I have found though so I, I, I don't go to a, physical gym.
• 10:33
  Mike Masnick: I actually every day pretty much will walk, Up over a big hill near where I live, to a park, and then I exercise in the park and I have a whole routine.
• 10:43
  Mike Masnick: the walking part, I will listen to a podcast, but as soon as I get into actual serious exercising, I have to switch to music because
• 10:51
  Ben Whitelaw: don't, you don't listen to
• 10:52
  Mike Masnick: I do not listen to us while exercising.
• 10:55
  Mike Masnick: Uh, I mean the walking part I will, but not, you know, once it gets into like actual strenuous, uh.
• 11:02
  Mike Masnick: Exercise stuff.
• 11:04
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah.
• 11:04
  Ben Whitelaw: Do you, so you listen back to, this is an interesting question.
• 11:07
  Ben Whitelaw: Maybe I, we have never discussed this.
• 11:08
  Ben Whitelaw: You listen back to us after the fact to see how Yeah.
• 11:13
  Mike Masnick: I do.
• 11:13
  Mike Masnick: I.
• 11:14
  Ben Whitelaw: I do too, but I didn't want to admit that without you saying so.
• 11:18
  Mike Masnick: Yeah, I listen to every episode and, and sort of self-critique.
• 11:21
  Mike Masnick: Uh, it's always an effort at, at trying to improve and sort of figuring out, you know, usually it's like, my God, well, you just shut up.
• 11:28
  Mike Masnick: Why do you keep rambling?
• 11:30
  Mike Masnick: But that's just like, you know, basic standard self, you know, loathing kind of stuff that, that comes with the territory.
• 11:38
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah, same.
• 11:40
  Ben Whitelaw: Same.
• 11:40
  Ben Whitelaw: I, I, yeah, it's, it's a kind of self-flagellation that goes on, which I think is all good.
• 11:45
  Ben Whitelaw: And then, you know, then to do a gym session afterwards.
• 11:48
  Ben Whitelaw: It's, it's, it's, it's a double hit.
• 11:50
  Ben Whitelaw: It's,
• 11:50
  Mike Masnick: yeah, exactly.
• 11:51
  Mike Masnick: But no, I mean, I, I do actually think it's important that, I know some people don't like to listen to, to themselves, but I actually feel that it is, it is a good way to, try and improve, is to listen and see how it comes out.
• 12:03
  Ben Whitelaw: And, and let me be clear, no judgment on our listeners for where and when they listen to us.
• 12:08
  Ben Whitelaw: We're very, very glad.
• 12:09
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, I just, that was the first time I think somebody had said that.
• 12:12
  Mike Masnick: I will make one note, however, which is that I, I always listen at, accelerated speeds, between two and three X speeds, sometimes 3.5 if I'm, if I'm really feeling it.
• 12:23
  Mike Masnick: Um, and, I think everybody judged for yourself, but if you listen at accelerated speeds, I think it makes it sound much better.
• 12:33
  Ben Whitelaw: Do we speak slowly?
• 12:35
  Mike Masnick: don't know that we speak slowly.
• 12:36
  Mike Masnick: I think we just sound smarter when we're fast.
• 12:41
  Ben Whitelaw: that I can only imagine what people think about us if they, if they listen on normal
• 12:46
  Mike Masnick: Yeah, it is.
• 12:47
  Mike Masnick: There is this weird thing I I, the brain adjusts very, very quickly so that I don't think it actually makes that big of a difference.
• 12:53
  Mike Masnick: but if, if it happens, sort of, you know, people have talked about.
• 12:57
  Mike Masnick: And I've heard this with other podcasts that I listen to at like three x speed.
• 13:01
  Mike Masnick: And then if it suddenly switches down to like one, for some reason it, it feels weird.
• 13:06
  Mike Masnick: It feels like they're drunk or something.
• 13:09
  Mike Masnick: But you just sort of get used to it.
• 13:10
  Mike Masnick: But that's only if it like switches, you know, within, within a few minutes you sort of, your brain, I immediately readjusts again and then it's
• 13:16
  Ben Whitelaw: Right.
• 13:17
  Ben Whitelaw: Okay.
• 13:18
  Ben Whitelaw: well.
• 13:19
  Ben Whitelaw: I will try to, keep the speed as consistent as possible for the two and x two x and three x listeners.
• 13:24
  Mike Masnick: I, I, I always had this, this idea that like, because I think people sound smarter when they speak faster, you know, but you can only speak as fast as you can speak, is that we should record the podcast and then release it at like 1.2 speech.
• 13:36
  Mike Masnick: Just, just a, just little tweak.
• 13:39
  Mike Masnick: So for Lee, our producer, when you listen back to this, just think about it.
• 13:46
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, I like it.
• 13:47
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, talking of reviews, we, could have talked about this last time we got together, but you actually got a review, passed you on a piece of paper at Trust
• 13:56
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 13:57
  Ben Whitelaw: which I think is the first time we've ever got a physical
• 14:01
  Mike Masnick: it was great.
• 14:02
  Ben Whitelaw: It's, it's, so, it's not on any of the platforms.
• 14:05
  Ben Whitelaw: It's, it's been given to you on a handwritten, on a piece of paper.
• 14:09
  Ben Whitelaw: and you're gonna read it out and.
• 14:11
  Ben Whitelaw: It's maybe gonna mention me.
• 14:14
  Mike Masnick: This one, this one I swear was not written by me.
• 14:18
  Mike Masnick: But yeah, this was, this was a very nice, uh, someone came up to me and introduced themselves at Trust Con.
• 14:23
  Mike Masnick: and we had had a, a lovely conversation earlier at Trust Con and then at the live recording.
• 14:29
  Mike Masnick: They handed me a five star review.
• 14:31
  Mike Masnick: Let's make that clear.
• 14:32
  Mike Masnick: This is a five star review and it says that the controlled speech is a huge part of our trust and safety team keeping up on the news and legislation that affects our work.
• 14:43
  Mike Masnick: And I should note this is a person who works in trust and safety for, a relatively new startup, an up, up, and coming startup and says it definitely helps us with our work where we're often playing the role of the third parent.
• 14:56
  Mike Masnick: of the online world and notes that Spotify has no reviews.
• 15:01
  Mike Masnick: You can rate a podcast, but you can't review it.
• 15:04
  Mike Masnick: So saying, keep it up.
• 15:05
  Mike Masnick: We appreciate it.
• 15:07
  Mike Masnick: and also this does include a literary reference
• 15:11
  Ben Whitelaw: Mm.
• 15:12
  Mike Masnick: if you can find it.
• 15:14
  Ben Whitelaw: I already Googled.
• 15:15
  Ben Whitelaw: I've already
• 15:16
  Mike Masnick: You cheated.
• 15:17
  Mike Masnick: You cheated.
• 15:19
  Ben Whitelaw: I had a guess.
• 15:19
  Ben Whitelaw: I haven't read this book, but I know that the third parent is, uh, a fiction, a piece of fiction.
• 15:27
  Ben Whitelaw: have you read it?
• 15:28
  Ben Whitelaw: Did you know
• 15:29
  Mike Masnick: did, I did not, but I assumed because that was the only thing that reading this where you're like, what is that first, you know, just gave me a second to pause.
• 15:36
  Mike Masnick: So what is the book?
• 15:38
  Mike Masnick: What is it?
• 15:38
  Ben Whitelaw: it's a book by, catalog Thought and Elias Withrow,
• 15:43
  Mike Masnick: Okay.
• 15:43
  Ben Whitelaw: um, which is, it looks from the kind of description, like a like kind of horror thriller.
• 15:51
  Ben Whitelaw: And it sounds quite creepy actually.
• 15:53
  Ben Whitelaw: It's, it, the, the Amazon kind of synopsis says that it starts with a knock at the door.
• 15:58
  Ben Whitelaw: it's about a young guy called Jack.
• 16:01
  Ben Whitelaw: I don't really, I don't really know if it's something I would read,
• 16:04
  Mike Masnick: Okay,
• 16:05
  Ben Whitelaw: but it's,
• 16:06
  Mike Masnick: But there is, there is a literary
• 16:08
  Ben Whitelaw: all the same.
• 16:08
  Mike Masnick: we appreciate that.
• 16:09
  Mike Masnick: And, and I'll just close it out that there is a PS with the review, which is that, my handwriting sucks.
• 16:15
  Mike Masnick: It really does.
• 16:16
  Mike Masnick: So my wife wrote this for me, so
• 16:19
  Ben Whitelaw: So thank you to both the reviewer and, their wife.
• 16:23
  Ben Whitelaw: that's very kind of you to send that in in person.
• 16:26
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, yeah, if you are thinking about.
• 16:29
  Ben Whitelaw: Giving us a review, which we really hope you are.
• 16:32
  Ben Whitelaw: It is faster and more helpful if you submit one online, but we will also take physical ones, at conferences, including Trustcom, where we'll almost certainly be next year.
• 16:43
  Ben Whitelaw: thanks everyone for that.
• 16:44
  Mike Masnick: Yes, but, but make sure you mention Ben
• 16:47
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah, please.
• 16:48
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, if I'm still in, if I'm still doing this by next year, um, no, we're, we're, so we've.
• 16:56
  Ben Whitelaw: Talked a bit about our last Today is really about answering listeners questions.
• 17:02
  Ben Whitelaw: And we had flagged in a couple of episodes ago, we were keen to hear from listeners and very open to answering questions that maybe we haven't touched on or, got round to, to answering.
• 17:13
  Ben Whitelaw: And we were lucky to have a whole tranche of questions come in and we're gonna spend a bit of time just kind of going back and forth on them.
• 17:20
  Ben Whitelaw: Uh, yeah, is there anything that you are, nervous that's gonna come up?
• 17:23
  Ben Whitelaw: Mike, are you, are were you concerned about that?
• 17:25
  Ben Whitelaw: You might get asked about, I don't know how old you are or how, how Long Tech Dirt has been, publishing for.
• 17:33
  Mike Masnick: Oh God.
• 17:34
  Mike Masnick: Uh, no.
• 17:36
  Mike Masnick: I'm, I'm, pretty open on this stuff.
• 17:38
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah, but the questions, the questions are nice.
• 17:40
  Ben Whitelaw: So maybe we'll get started with, uh, with one from a Blue sky user called hybrid havoc.
• 17:47
  Ben Whitelaw: a bunch of these have come in from blues, sky, some via email, some via our website.
• 17:51
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, they say, did you start with a really long list of platforms and their post prompts.
• 17:57
  Ben Whitelaw: Which is a reference to how we usually start the episode.
• 17:59
  Ben Whitelaw: If so, how many more are on the list?
• 18:02
  Ben Whitelaw: and if not, is there a process of picking or is it just whatever comes to mind, which is,
• 18:07
  Mike Masnick: It's a good question.
• 18:08
  Ben Whitelaw: it's a very good question.
• 18:10
  Ben Whitelaw: How does it normally work?
• 18:11
  Mike Masnick: Uh, it normally these days it works that, uh, a few minutes before we're about to start recording, one of us goes.
• 18:18
  Mike Masnick: Oh crap.
• 18:19
  Mike Masnick: We haven't, we don't have a prompt then we scramble.
• 18:23
  Mike Masnick: Uh, I think early on when we started this idea of opening each episode with a, you know, originally it was a social media prompt.
• 18:32
  Mike Masnick: we did not think that through very carefully, and the fact that we were going to run outta of, of prompts very quick.
• 18:39
  Mike Masnick: so we did early on, we did put together a list.
• 18:41
  Mike Masnick: We had a list of maybe 15 or so.
• 18:44
  Mike Masnick: And then once we ran through that, we occasionally will suddenly come up with a few ideas, but generally speaking, we forget about it until just before we're about to record, and then suddenly we scramble.
• 18:55
  Mike Masnick: Occasionally we'll have things where it'll be like a reference to something that we're talking about that week, and we'll say, oh yeah, like let's just use that prompt.
• 19:01
  Mike Masnick: And we've gotten, I would say, a little bit more liberal in what we count as a prompt,
• 19:08
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah.
• 19:08
  Mike Masnick: because I think early on it was very specifically like some sort of input.
• 19:13
  Mike Masnick: You know, user generated, prompt system, and now we're just like a motto, something they say on their website, something.
• 19:22
  Mike Masnick: But we will, I mean, there are days where we'll spend, you know, maybe 10 minutes or so, like both you and I like scrolling through our phones, like every app we have on the phone.
• 19:31
  Mike Masnick: Do, do any of these have a prompt we could use?
• 19:34
  Mike Masnick: So it is not, it is not, that.
• 19:37
  Mike Masnick: Careful or,
• 19:39
  Ben Whitelaw: No,
• 19:39
  Mike Masnick: or thoughtfully put together.
• 19:41
  Ben Whitelaw: no.
• 19:42
  Ben Whitelaw: And I think we're at the stage now where we are also.
• 19:45
  Ben Whitelaw: this is very kind of in the weeds, but we haven't ever captured or written down which episodes have which prompts, so we don't really know which ones have been used.
• 19:55
  Mike Masnick: we started
• 19:56
  Ben Whitelaw: of do.
• 19:57
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah.
• 19:57
  Mike Masnick: not entirely true.
• 19:58
  Mike Masnick: Like in our spreadsheet for the first, six or eight months.
• 20:02
  Mike Masnick: I think we did, we were pretty, I mean, no, let's be clear.
• 20:04
  Mike Masnick: You were very good at keeping track of which prompts we used.
• 20:09
  Mike Masnick: It is possible we've reused some, but I don't think we really have.
• 20:14
  Ben Whitelaw: it's, yeah, there's a few that I'm, thinking of that we might have reused, but we've done a pretty good job considering we've been doing this for 18
• 20:21
  Mike Masnick: and I think we found, we found some, some unique ones and we've had some fun with it.
• 20:25
  Mike Masnick: you know, the fun for me is always when we have guest host as well, where then, you know, if they're not necessarily a regular listener or didn't even consider, like explaining to them the whole opening prompt thing and like, watching them figure out like, oh, that's weird.
• 20:40
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah.
• 20:41
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:42
  Ben Whitelaw: do you have a favorite that you remember?
• 20:44
  Ben Whitelaw: A favorite prompt?
• 20:45
  Mike Masnick: I don't know if I do.
• 20:47
  Ben Whitelaw: Because I, I remember, using the prompt for NGL, the, youth app.
• 20:54
  Ben Whitelaw: I think it sounds for like, not gonna lie.
• 20:56
  Mike Masnick: Not gonna lie.
• 20:57
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 20:58
  Ben Whitelaw: and the prompt was, tell me your confession.
• 21:02
  Ben Whitelaw: And it really threw you.
• 21:03
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 21:05
  Ben Whitelaw: 'cause you're like, I don't, I don't really know if I should be actually responding to that in a real way.
• 21:12
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, which I think maybe shows the power of, of a prompt.
• 21:15
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, yeah.
• 21:16
  Ben Whitelaw: Can you, can you think of others that you've.
• 21:19
  Mike Masnick: Oh, gosh, I, not off the top of my head.
• 21:22
  Mike Masnick: I mean, I know we've had some fun ones.
• 21:24
  Mike Masnick: Sometimes there are ones that, you know, there's these like random ones.
• 21:29
  Mike Masnick: What we, we used Zen ones where it's like, what, what is that?
• 21:33
  Mike Masnick: Like, where did that come from?
• 21:35
  Ben Whitelaw: What's
• 21:35
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 21:36
  Mike Masnick: Like every once in a while when we were looking for prompts, I would, just do like a Google search on.
• 21:40
  Mike Masnick: New social media apps and, and there are these lists of like 10 new social media apps you haven't heard of.
• 21:46
  Mike Masnick: And I just look at the screenshots of each one to see if they have a, have some sort of weird prompt.
• 21:51
  Mike Masnick: but, you know, yeah, I don't, I don't know.
• 21:52
  Mike Masnick: I mean, I think I also like the sort of fun ones where it's, it's not social media where there are things like, Uber or, you know, one of the, um.
• 22:03
  Mike Masnick: task services or something like that where, where it's just a little bit unique and a little bit different.
• 22:09
  Ben Whitelaw: I think this is a, challenge for our listeners.
• 22:11
  Ben Whitelaw: if there are any apps or prompts for any kind of online services that you think we should be using, get in touch with us podcast@controlspeech.com.
• 22:20
  Ben Whitelaw: or go via the website, ctl or speech.com.
• 22:24
  Ben Whitelaw: We'd love to get some more inputs on this.
• 22:27
  Ben Whitelaw: and start.
• 22:28
  Ben Whitelaw: In September with a whole tranche of fresh prompts.
• 22:31
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 22:32
  Ben Whitelaw: yeah, give us your favorites.
• 22:33
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, we got a kind of secondary question from a different, person that actually asked, have any platforms or companies responded to their mention in the intro
• 22:41
  Mike Masnick: Oh.
• 22:42
  Ben Whitelaw: which is interesting question.
• 22:43
  Ben Whitelaw: Somebody else separately asked like, are these not sponsored?
• 22:47
  Mike Masnick: Yeah, I was gonna say, I, I was actually just about to say if somebody wants to sponsor the, the opening prompt, like I think we could do that.
• 22:55
  Ben Whitelaw: yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 22:58
  Ben Whitelaw: we could have your prompt on the podcast every week, should you wish.
• 23:04
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, We are not, Close to any commercial ideas, that's fair to say.
• 23:09
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, but no, I don't think, no, no companies have responded.
• 23:12
  Mike Masnick: I don't, I don't think we've ever heard from someone who was like, Hey, you use my prompt.
• 23:15
  Mike Masnick: I mean, you know, I don't think, like, I don't think anyone that meta is gonna be like, oh, you, you use the prompt from meta from Facebook or whatever.
• 23:24
  Ben Whitelaw: No, I like the idea that there's a kind of copywriter or a, or a kind of junior ux designer at a mid-size platform who listens to the podcast and then, hears us, repeating the, the six words of copy that they spent hours and hours refining and signing off.
• 23:41
  Ben Whitelaw: I'd like to think that that person would have a flicker of a smile across their face, but that's
• 23:45
  Mike Masnick: We, we haven't heard about it.
• 23:47
  Ben Whitelaw: We haven't heard about it.
• 23:49
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, yeah.
• 23:49
  Ben Whitelaw: Okay.
• 23:50
  Ben Whitelaw: a related question to prompts is, about the kind of how we build out each episode is how do you balance mainstream coverage, with more niche and international stories?
• 24:01
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 24:02
  Ben Whitelaw: And this, this is kind of interesting'cause we are very aware, aren't we of, of the very kind of us, uh, western centric nature of some of these discussions.
• 24:11
  Ben Whitelaw: and we do talk quite a lot about how do we bring in stories from other parts of the world.
• 24:16
  Mike Masnick: Yeah, and we mentioned a little bit about this in the, the last episode that we did about sort of the state of the podcast, which is that, you know, I'm very conscious of it where, during the week leading up to the recording, I am sort of finding stories from, from all over the place and kind of, sort of what finds me through usual sources, which is often like a mix of.
• 24:35
  Mike Masnick: Blue Sky, Google News, email, newsletters, you know, just stuff.
• 24:41
  Mike Masnick: But then the day before we record the podcast, I will do a more dedicated search, and that includes a few sources that I think are very good, that will often turn up, less, less obvious stories and, and like.
• 24:56
  Mike Masnick: I'm not gonna list like all the, the, the resources that I use, but one of the really, really good ones is rest of world, for example, right?
• 25:04
  Mike Masnick: I mean they really, I mean, as the name says, cover the non-Western non-European stories and they often have a trust and safety.
• 25:15
  Mike Masnick: Internet online, speech bent, not always.
• 25:18
  Mike Masnick: Um, but, but they're really good, very thoughtful, great reporting.
• 25:22
  Mike Masnick: and so I have a few sources like that that I will do a specific check on every week.
• 25:28
  Mike Masnick: And then, you know, I mean, a lot of it I actually do find by a blue sky and, and following a lot of experts and not just US based, not just European based, but finding people who are in Asia and Africa and South America and, and following them.
• 25:43
  Mike Masnick: You know, people who are a lot of academics and lawyers and, folks who are, working in the trust and safety space or the online speech space.
• 25:52
  Mike Masnick: and just seeing what stories and ideas that they're promoting.
• 25:55
  Mike Masnick: And so that is a lot of it.
• 25:56
  Mike Masnick: We really do try and balance those things.
• 25:58
  Mike Masnick: I mean, big stories are big stories and there'll be mainstream versions of them.
• 26:02
  Mike Masnick: but we're often looking for, a mix of, both those and, and less, well known sources.
• 26:07
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah, and I, I'm similar really.
• 26:09
  Ben Whitelaw: I use kind of Google alerts and RSSA lot for putting together everything in moderation each week.
• 26:16
  Ben Whitelaw: So that has a number of different kind of search terms and combinations of words set up to try and get some of those stories from those different parts of the world that you mentioned.
• 26:24
  Ben Whitelaw: Mike.
• 26:25
  Ben Whitelaw: there are lots of, kind of really interesting kind of.
• 26:29
  Ben Whitelaw: B2B small industry sites that actually will probably would never get, shared on social media in all honesty.
• 26:36
  Ben Whitelaw: Or you'd never necessarily subscribe to the newsletter, but they often come up in, those searches.
• 26:41
  Ben Whitelaw: And so I'm able to kind of at least find out that something has happened in those regions and they can kind of almost go back and, trace the root of that announcement or, whatever it might be.
• 26:51
  Ben Whitelaw: So, I think that's how, you know.
• 26:52
  Ben Whitelaw: To be honest, it's how I came across some of the big stories in, in Kenya that we've talked about on the podcast.
• 26:58
  Ben Whitelaw: we had Mercy Tumi do a, a great kind of breakdown of, um, some of the kind of digital labor, issues that, that are happening there.
• 27:06
  Ben Whitelaw: And there are people who I gravitate towards to kind of find out what is happening in a particular country.
• 27:11
  Ben Whitelaw: but it's, it's tricky.
• 27:12
  Ben Whitelaw: There is, there is a, both a supply and a demand kind of issue.
• 27:16
  Ben Whitelaw: there's fewer people writing about.
• 27:18
  Ben Whitelaw: Digital policy and, and online speech issues in countries outside of the US and the kind of western world in many ways.
• 27:24
  Ben Whitelaw: and also there is, I think, fewer people that probably want to hear about them as a result.
• 27:29
  Ben Whitelaw: So we do have to make a really concerted effort, and that's a, that's a challenge, that we try and address by being very intentional about it.
• 27:35
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 27:36
  Mike Masnick: I mean, one thing I'll note is that, and I, I find this interesting is that every week, you know, we dump the stories from each of us into, into the spreadsheet and well, I don't know about on your end, but on my end, you always find a bunch of stories that I did not see anywhere
• 27:51
  Ben Whitelaw: Mm.
• 27:51
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah.
• 27:51
  Ben Whitelaw: Likewise.
• 27:52
  Mike Masnick: and, and I'm always like, I always find that great.
• 27:55
  Mike Masnick: You know, it's like, oh.
• 27:56
  Mike Masnick: cause like sometimes I'm searching, it's like, ah, there's really not much this week or other weeks.
• 28:00
  Mike Masnick: There's like, there's way too much this week.
• 28:02
  Mike Masnick: But, you always find different stories than I do, you know, we have, there's always some overlap, but, you know, we find such different things and I think that that also contributes to, you know, some of the enjoyment of discussing these stories.
• 28:14
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah, for sure.
• 28:15
  Ben Whitelaw: okay, so let's go onto our next question.
• 28:18
  Ben Whitelaw: we have a question from an anonymous listener about how we find guest hosts.
• 28:25
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, and how do we contact them?
• 28:27
  Ben Whitelaw: How do we reach out to them?
• 28:29
  Ben Whitelaw: And if they're not set up as podcasts themselves, how do they, how do you make sure that they're kind of ready to, to co-host when one of us is off?
• 28:36
  Ben Whitelaw: which I think is a great question.
• 28:37
  Ben Whitelaw: I hadn't really thought that this would be interesting for folks, but
• 28:40
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 28:41
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 28:41
  Mike Masnick: And it is interesting and, and you know, the answer is obviously a lot of these people are people that we know.
• 28:46
  Mike Masnick: both Ben and I have spent a lot of time in and around the online speech and trust and safety worlds, and we have a whole bunch of folks that, we know.
• 28:53
  Mike Masnick: And then we're constantly meeting new people as well.
• 28:56
  Mike Masnick: And so throughout that process, when we meet new people, there are times where we're like.
• 29:00
  Mike Masnick: Well, you know, this person would be good as a, as a guest host.
• 29:04
  Mike Masnick: And then when an an opportunity comes up, you know, the way it's worked until now is basically when one of us is unavailable or away, you know, we bring in a guest host for the other one.
• 29:13
  Mike Masnick: and so then it's just a, a process of, figuring out who would be good and who's available.
• 29:18
  Mike Masnick: And, and it's, I think it's worked out really nicely.
• 29:21
  Mike Masnick: I really, I enjoy getting to talk with you every week, but, but like when one of us is away, I think we've done a really nice job with filling in with the guest hosts.
• 29:31
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah, and, and I think there's, two things here for me is like.
• 29:35
  Ben Whitelaw: your Rolodex Mike is enormous.
• 29:39
  Ben Whitelaw: You know, like you have this, because you've worked for so long in this space and, you know, you're, you are very well connected.
• 29:44
  Ben Whitelaw: We've been able to have these amazing guests, like people who have written, books and papers that, are still talked about years later and are doing amazing analysis.
• 29:52
  Ben Whitelaw: And, and so the fact that we're able to call upon those folks and they're willing to stand in when, when I'm away is amazing.
• 29:58
  Ben Whitelaw: We've also had some folks that have actually kind of got in touch with us and said, Hey, I'd, I'd like to be a co-host the next time one of you is off.
• 30:05
  Ben Whitelaw: And those people, I won't name them'cause it, it doesn't really matter.
• 30:09
  Ben Whitelaw: But they, those people have been brilliant.
• 30:11
  Ben Whitelaw: and they've, put themselves forward.
• 30:13
  Ben Whitelaw: They often have kinda industry expertise.
• 30:15
  Ben Whitelaw: So they're working in platforms and they're kind of, they're either able to, uh, speak to their comms team and reassure them that coming on the podcast is not gonna cause, uh, serious, damage to the brand or the platform that they're working for.
• 30:28
  Ben Whitelaw: but they actually, the kind of process of talking through the news isn't that easy for somebody who's not necessarily following it.
• 30:35
  Ben Whitelaw: In the way that we are, and yet they equip themselves really well.
• 30:39
  Ben Whitelaw: and we sit them down ahead of time, much like we do ourselves, and, and we talk'em through what we're looking for.
• 30:45
  Ben Whitelaw: And they do a great job.
• 30:47
  Ben Whitelaw: So again, if, there are people who are listening who would love to be co-hosts, please throw your hat in the ring, get in touch with us, this is part of the.
• 30:54
  Ben Whitelaw: What control speech is about, which is widening the voices that talk about this stuff and, and when one of us is away, it's a great opportunity to, bring people on board to do that.
• 31:03
  Mike Masnick: And, part of that question too was sort of, you know, people who are not, experienced, podcasters or whatever, you know, and I, I think we had mentioned this in the last episode too, like we do, and by we, I mean Lee, our producer, does a full edit and makes us sound smarter, and that includes guest hosts.
• 31:22
  Mike Masnick: So, you know,
• 31:23
  Ben Whitelaw: It doesn't include putting us on 1.2
• 31:25
  Mike Masnick: No, not yet.
• 31:26
  Mike Masnick: Not yet.
• 31:27
  Mike Masnick: But hey Lee, think about it.
• 31:29
  Mike Masnick: Uh, so, so, uh, you most people actually fit in very, very naturally.
• 31:35
  Mike Masnick: I'm always not surprised necessarily, but I'm, I'm always impressed at how easily people just.
• 31:40
  Mike Masnick: You know, it's just talking and people get into it really quickly, and we've never had a case where things have gotten really, really wrong or, or, badly, or it's been a mess or anything.
• 31:50
  Mike Masnick: But, you know, Lee is always there to step in if somebody messes up or, you know, just says something wrong and wants to start again.
• 31:57
  Mike Masnick: you as maybe ha happened in this very podcast, which you will never hear if you're listening to it.
• 32:03
  Ben Whitelaw: Uh, that kind of leads quite, nearly onto a, another similar question, which is again, an anonymous listener who's asked, have you ever had a guest or tech mishap that meant you've had to scrap the episode?
• 32:16
  Ben Whitelaw: my kind of contribution here is the first episode that we ever recorded, which, I dunno if you remember.
• 32:23
  Ben Whitelaw: Was an absolute shit show on my part.
• 32:26
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, I had never recorded a podcast.
• 32:30
  Ben Whitelaw: I think at any stage really.
• 32:31
  Ben Whitelaw: I'd maybe I'd been a guest and, and somebody had sent me a link and I'd logged on.
• 32:35
  Ben Whitelaw: But I'd never co-hosted, never been in charge.
• 32:39
  Ben Whitelaw: And I was traveling.
• 32:40
  Ben Whitelaw: I was in Paris for a, for a work trip, and I was in a hotel.
• 32:45
  Ben Whitelaw: had my mic, I brought it over on the Eurostar and the only setup in the hotel that allowed me to be close enough to the mic and see you on screen was sat with my legs, under the bed, on the floor, underneath the tv.
• 33:02
  Ben Whitelaw: Like a kind of, I don't know, like I'd like, I'd had a, a raging party and had kind of like ConEd out on the floor.
• 33:09
  Ben Whitelaw: And if you remember, the wifi was so terrible.
• 33:12
  Ben Whitelaw: We had these like long delays between questions and answers and it was a real, it was horrible.
• 33:19
  Ben Whitelaw: And we obviously, we were kind of new working together.
• 33:21
  Ben Whitelaw: I was pretty nervous.
• 33:24
  Ben Whitelaw: And I think by the magic of, of Lee, our producer, he made it work and we were able to put this podcast out, but I was so nervous that the, wifi and the tech was gonna conspire against me.
• 33:36
  Ben Whitelaw: We're gonna have to kind of scrap it and start again.
• 33:38
  Ben Whitelaw: so that, that's the closest that I, I
• 33:40
  Mike Masnick: Okay.
• 33:40
  Mike Masnick: I, I don't, I, I remember, I remember the recording with you in Paris, and I remember that we had some wifi troubles, but that, that is the extent of my, my memory of that.
• 33:50
  Mike Masnick: I do, I will say that, before we release the podcast, we did record.
• 33:55
  Mike Masnick: Three or four sample episodes just to sort of get our sea legs under us.
• 34:00
  Mike Masnick: And we did have some tech trouble there.
• 34:02
  Mike Masnick: And in fact, the platform that we're using to record is a different one than the first one that we used to record the first few samples because we had some tech difficulty with that original platform.
• 34:12
  Mike Masnick: And I'm not gonna name names or whatever, including at one point what happened?
• 34:18
  Mike Masnick: we had some issues where we were like losing audio, but then there was one where didn't it, like it recorded me without alerting me.
• 34:28
  Mike Masnick: Oh, it was the video.
• 34:29
  Mike Masnick: We turned off the video, but it still recorded the video even though we had turned it off and we're like, wow, that's bad.
• 34:37
  Ben Whitelaw: That was creepy, wasn't
• 34:38
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 34:39
  Mike Masnick: and I, I think I had sent them an email saying like, you could get in serious trouble for doing that.
• 34:45
  Mike Masnick: Um, and uh, and we got some useless response.
• 34:49
  Mike Masnick: Never, they never really dealt with it.
• 34:51
  Mike Masnick: But yeah, so I mean, I think we had, you know, I think it's good we sort of worked out some of the tech difficulties.
• 34:58
  Mike Masnick: beforehand, but other than that, I don't think we've had any, we've never had anything that's like really disastrous.
• 35:02
  Mike Masnick: We've had little things go wrong here and there, but always stuff that, Lee will fix and post.
• 35:08
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah, and I think the, the only, I guess, kind of similar issue was that at Trust Con recently there was, you know, you, you were meant to have another panelist on stage, unfortunately that it can work out.
• 35:19
  Ben Whitelaw: And it was very last minute.
• 35:20
  Ben Whitelaw: So there was just
• 35:22
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 35:23
  Ben Whitelaw: and one other on stage.
• 35:24
  Ben Whitelaw: But again, like that's, in many ways the nature of doing a newsy
• 35:28
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 35:28
  Mike Masnick: And that, that, that
• 35:30
  Ben Whitelaw: it happens all the
• 35:31
  Mike Masnick: Yeah.
• 35:31
  Mike Masnick: You can roll with a change like that.
• 35:34
  Mike Masnick: you know, and, and then, you know, even like recording, the, the live podcast, like, I've been nervous about the, tech side because that's now suddenly outta my control.
• 35:41
  Mike Masnick: And we were sort of relying on the AV staff, but like.
• 35:45
  Mike Masnick: shout outs to, trust Con and TSPA and the AV staff that they hire, like incredibly professional and just totally on the ball.
• 35:55
  Mike Masnick: And you know, I, I think they were, More annoyed at me, like double checking, like, is everything gonna work?
• 36:01
  Mike Masnick: And they're just like, yeah, yeah, of course.
• 36:03
  Mike Masnick: You know, no problem.
• 36:04
  Mike Masnick: We got it.
• 36:05
  Ben Whitelaw: We're professionals,
• 36:07
  Mike Masnick: and they,
• 36:07
  Ben Whitelaw: unlike you guys.
• 36:08
  Mike Masnick: exactly, exactly.
• 36:10
  Mike Masnick: Uh, and so yeah, we, I don't think we've really had any.
• 36:14
  Mike Masnick: Technical difficulties at all.
• 36:16
  Mike Masnick: I mean, there was some stuff early on too in sort of figuring out how do you get the podcast into the various services and, figuring all those things out.
• 36:24
  Mike Masnick: But these are like little things.
• 36:26
  Mike Masnick: We haven't had any sort of major disaster or anything.
• 36:28
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah.
• 36:29
  Ben Whitelaw: And, and that's a question we got as well from one of our listeners, Mike Murphy.
• 36:33
  Ben Whitelaw: he asked us on, on Blue Sky, it feels like your DIY on the production side, uh, as in we kind of do it ourselves.
• 36:41
  Ben Whitelaw: So he said he'd be interested to know more about what that looks like, the tools and processes.
• 36:45
  Ben Whitelaw: Do you wanna just give a kind of level overview of like, what we use in case folks, you know, fancy giving it a go themselves.
• 36:50
  Mike Masnick: Yeah, I mean, it is, as we mentioned, it is really just sort of the three of us, Ben, myself, and Lee on the production side.
• 36:57
  Mike Masnick: and we use the tools that are, that are readily available that a lot of podcasters use.
• 37:02
  Mike Masnick: So we're using Riverside to record, which is also what I've used for years for the Tech Dirt podcast.
• 37:07
  Mike Masnick: I've tried other services in the past.
• 37:10
  Mike Masnick: have used a few different services on that front and Riverside just.
• 37:13
  Mike Masnick: Mostly seems to work.
• 37:15
  Mike Masnick: Every once in a while.
• 37:15
  Mike Masnick: There are hiccups, but I don't think we've ever had a hiccup directly with, with
• 37:19
  Ben Whitelaw: No.
• 37:20
  Mike Masnick: there was a short period of time where for whatever reason it wouldn't.
• 37:23
  Mike Masnick: I have my camera work.
• 37:25
  Mike Masnick: And that was like for like three weeks in like February.
• 37:28
  Mike Masnick: For some reason, I don't know what happened, but then, then it started working again.
• 37:31
  Mike Masnick: Um, we used de script to edit the podcast.
• 37:35
  Mike Masnick: that's Lee's specialty.
• 37:37
  Mike Masnick: DS script is sort of becoming kind of the defacto standard for podcast editing.
• 37:43
  Mike Masnick: the Riverside itself is trying to compete with D script.
• 37:47
  Mike Masnick: I've played around just personally a little bit with the D script, uh, sorry, with the Riverside editor, not the D script editor.
• 37:54
  Mike Masnick: and it's, it's pretty nice.
• 37:55
  Mike Masnick: We might try and use that some more.
• 37:57
  Mike Masnick: but, DS script is, is sort of the standard.
• 38:00
  Mike Masnick: podcast editing tool that a lot of people use.
• 38:02
  Mike Masnick: and then we use Buzzsprout to host, and Buzzsprout is one of, there's a small group of companies that are in the podcast hosting business.
• 38:10
  Mike Masnick: Buzzsprout, came very highly recommended.
• 38:12
  Mike Masnick: We had not used it in the past, but I spoke to a few podcast people and they all said, just use Buzz proud.
• 38:17
  Mike Masnick: It's easy.
• 38:18
  Mike Masnick: It's designed specifically for, podcasts.
• 38:21
  Mike Masnick: They have good analytics, and they've been, Easy to work with as well.
• 38:25
  Mike Masnick: and so yeah, we, we've been really, really happy on that front.
• 38:29
  Mike Masnick: Um, I mentioned Riverside, with Riverside just sort of starting to play around with, with their editing tools.
• 38:34
  Mike Masnick: One thing that I have done a few times now is test out.
• 38:39
  Mike Masnick: They have video because we don't release video.
• 38:42
  Mike Masnick: Uh, that's, something worth mentioning.
• 38:44
  Mike Masnick: We've thought about it, we've talked about it.
• 38:46
  Mike Masnick: We may do something as they sort of dip the toe in the water.
• 38:50
  Mike Masnick: I personally was using Riversides.
• 38:54
  Mike Masnick: They have some, tools for doing video editing just to do short clips and posted them to Blue Sky.
• 38:59
  Mike Masnick: That was more fun to see if we could do it.
• 39:01
  Mike Masnick: I have no skills in this space at all.
• 39:04
  Mike Masnick: Um.
• 39:05
  Mike Masnick: But the tools made it, you know, relatively easy to produce a short, 52nd video clip of something we had discussed.
• 39:12
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah, and there's an interesting, I guess thing here that we, we didn't touch on in the last episode, but.
• 39:18
  Ben Whitelaw: Is that a lot of platforms now podcast platforms are wanting video.
• 39:23
  Ben Whitelaw: it's a kind of engagement tool to, keep listeners, following along.
• 39:27
  Ben Whitelaw: There's apparently an increasing trend of people listening and watching to podcasts at the same time.
• 39:32
  Ben Whitelaw: It's difficult for us'cause we're in different places.
• 39:34
  Ben Whitelaw: So actually the video is just two heads on a screen.
• 39:39
  Ben Whitelaw: And if you've seen Mike's attempts at, producing those clips, you'll see that it's kind of us looking at a screen like, so many of those like COVID pandemic, uh, meeting viral videos, except it's just us, banging on about speech online There's a kind of thing there, which is like, do we do this?
• 39:57
  Ben Whitelaw: do we spend time, and invest a bit in, creating video for YouTube or for Spotify or whatever it might be?
• 40:05
  Ben Whitelaw: is it worth editing?
• 40:06
  Ben Whitelaw: Is it actually adding anything?
• 40:08
  Ben Whitelaw: It's hard to say, to be honest.
• 40:10
  Ben Whitelaw: Like we think the kind of podcast is best in audio form, but if we want to it to grow, it might be that we have to kind of go into video as well.
• 40:18
  Ben Whitelaw: So we're figuring that out as we go.
• 40:20
  Mike Masnick: Yeah, we're, we're sort of exploring it too.
• 40:22
  Mike Masnick: You know, there's also questions around editing in audio and video is different.
• 40:27
  Mike Masnick: These tools allow you to do both.
• 40:29
  Mike Masnick: But, you know, an audio edit that takes out me stumbling over words and going, uh, uh, uh, uh, don't edit that.
• 40:37
  Mike Masnick: Partly, uh, it is.
• 40:40
  Mike Masnick: different than if you do it in video where suddenly it becomes noticeable that there's an edit.
• 40:44
  Mike Masnick: know, so I'm sort of watching now if I, I do watch some podcasts on YouTube and I'm seeing some of them do those edits and it's really not that bad.
• 40:52
  Mike Masnick: But, you know, I don't know, does that feel weird?
• 40:54
  Mike Masnick: If, if we have an edit that makes it clear that something was cut out, which you don't hear on when it's just the audio podcast.
• 41:01
  Mike Masnick: and you know, I don't know.
• 41:02
  Mike Masnick: I don't know what, what sort of audience there is to watch it on YouTube to watch.
• 41:06
  Mike Masnick: You know the two of us?
• 41:08
  Ben Whitelaw: yeah, I mean, some of, some of the live episodes have got a bit of.
• 41:12
  Ben Whitelaw: Listenership.
• 41:13
  Ben Whitelaw: But we're, we're shy guys.
• 41:16
  Ben Whitelaw: You know, we're, we're, we're shy folks.
• 41:18
  Ben Whitelaw: We, we like, you know, some element of.
• 41:21
  Ben Whitelaw: Anonymity and maybe we don't want our faces all over the internet low.
• 41:27
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, a few other questions before we kind of wrap up.
• 41:30
  Ben Whitelaw: Mike.
• 41:30
  Ben Whitelaw: These are, I would class them, I'd bucket them as a kind of future gazing, set of questions.
• 41:35
  Ben Whitelaw: The first one is, what do you think will be the big topics in online speech between now and the end of the year?
• 41:43
  Ben Whitelaw: So in the next kind of, I guess four, five months, um.
• 41:48
  Ben Whitelaw: Tricky one I thought.
• 41:49
  Mike Masnick: Yeah, though I think, Age verification is like the big story in the sort of online speech space.
• 41:55
  Mike Masnick: Now, obviously the online safety act, their age assurance, age estimation, part of that going into effect.
• 42:02
  Mike Masnick: I know that, people in the UK government do not want people to say that it's age verification, but, you know, come on.
• 42:10
  Mike Masnick: Um.
• 42:12
  Ben Whitelaw: What, what do they want it to be called?
• 42:14
  Mike Masnick: Uh, age, I forget what they said.
• 42:17
  Mike Masnick: Age as assurance or something along those lines, or age appropriateness or, I forget, I forget what the thing was, but I, I heard through the grapevine that they were getting annoyed that two things, one, that, that people were saying that the online.
• 42:31
  Mike Masnick: Safety Act had just gone into effect when it's, there are different pieces of it that are going into effect at, at a staged rate, and that, that age verification was required.
• 42:41
  Mike Masnick: But it, it, it kind of is.
• 42:44
  Mike Masnick: Um.
• 42:44
  Ben Whitelaw: Right.
• 42:45
  Mike Masnick: but that, that's not the only place, right?
• 42:47
  Mike Masnick: I mean, throughout the US now we have a bunch of states after the Free Speech Coalition case, a bunch more states have been passing online age verification laws.
• 42:56
  Mike Masnick: Australia is basically going to have online age verification, the DSA and the EU and other places.
• 43:03
  Mike Masnick: I think that is a very big story in online speech, and we're sort of seeing how these laws go into effect and what impact it has.
• 43:09
  Mike Masnick: so I think that is, that's a really big one.
• 43:11
  Mike Masnick: The other big one.
• 43:12
  Mike Masnick: Obviously is sort of the role of artificial intelligence within the online speech world, both in terms of like the production of content more broadly, but also how does artificial intelligence play into the questions around content moderation and speech and, and how all that works.
• 43:31
  Mike Masnick: That's why I think those are two big stories.
• 43:33
  Mike Masnick: I imagine we'll have a lot to cover regarding both of those over the next few months.
• 43:38
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah.
• 43:38
  Ben Whitelaw: Interesting.
• 43:38
  Ben Whitelaw: I would say I'll pick two as well.
• 43:41
  Ben Whitelaw: I would say, I guess the kind of broader US UK diplomatic conversation that's happening, uh, you know, we've seen JD Vance holiday in the uk.
• 43:54
  Ben Whitelaw: We've seen Jim Jordan, come to to Ireland and to meet Ofcom and he's done the tour recently.
• 44:00
  Ben Whitelaw: we know that.
• 44:01
  Ben Whitelaw: there is cases pending in Europe against x slash Twitter, which are probably being held back while these diplomatic efforts take shape and, and kind of play out.
• 44:13
  Ben Whitelaw: So I feel like it's building towards something.
• 44:16
  Ben Whitelaw: I feel like kind of September, October, November, that's gonna explode in some way.
• 44:22
  Ben Whitelaw: I dunno, to what extent I think, I think when the DSA rule on, X Twitter in that long-term investigation that's been going on since 2023, I think that uh, it could open a floodgate of, you know, new news around this stuff.
• 44:34
  Ben Whitelaw: So I think that's something to, of pay attention to.
• 44:37
  Ben Whitelaw: And I would also say, I guess age verification is, maybe the first part of it, but the broader.
• 44:44
  Ben Whitelaw: Tools, ecosystem that is developing around regulation.
• 44:48
  Ben Whitelaw: You know, as people are being asked to, build in protections against, you know, for children and for other groups online, as, as regulation is enforced, people are gonna have to start to go out to the market and procure tools that help them.
• 45:03
  Ben Whitelaw: Keep users safe, and that was a kind of optional thing in the past.
• 45:07
  Ben Whitelaw: It's now gonna be mandated.
• 45:10
  Ben Whitelaw: There is already a growing set of tools out there.
• 45:12
  Ben Whitelaw: There's, as you say, a series of open source initiatives that are, are coming to the, the fore and that's only gonna increase, you know, the number of tools and, and the amount spent is, is gonna be
• 45:23
  Mike Masnick: I think it goes beyond just the tools too, right?
• 45:25
  Mike Masnick: There's a growing ecosystem of like consultants and, you know, people coming in to do an audit on different services and how safe are you?
• 45:35
  Mike Masnick: And I think all of that is, is only gonna grow.
• 45:37
  Mike Masnick: And that, that marketplace is, getting more interesting it'll be interesting to see how that market grows, especially in response to the regulatory requirements that are coming into place.
• 45:47
  Mike Masnick: You know, are they just going to be sort of.
• 45:49
  Mike Masnick: the regulatory compliance function of, you know, we need to check off a box and therefore we have to hire a company that will review stuff for us.
• 45:57
  Mike Masnick: Or will they actually go in deep and start making, you know, are there.
• 46:01
  Mike Masnick: Opportunities for people to come in and actually improve online speech and, in safe ways, uh, on various platforms.
• 46:08
  Mike Masnick: And I, I think that'll be an interesting story that as it develops and we begin to learn about, where are these kinds of interventions actually helpful.
• 46:16
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah, for sure.
• 46:17
  Ben Whitelaw: and then finally, and I think this is an, uh, appropriate last question to finish on.
• 46:22
  Ben Whitelaw: Somebody has asked, will we ever solve content moderation,
• 46:26
  Mike Masnick: Oh yeah.
• 46:27
  Ben Whitelaw: which I don't think we means.
• 46:29
  Ben Whitelaw: You and me.
• 46:31
  Mike Masnick: Come on, Ben.
• 46:31
  Ben Whitelaw: sus, I'm not being very ambitious.
• 46:35
  Ben Whitelaw: I think it means society as a
• 46:37
  Mike Masnick: no.
• 46:37
  Mike Masnick: I think control alt speech is going to solve content moderation and that this is why everyone on the planet should be listening this podcast because we are going to solve the world's problems.
• 46:52
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah.
• 46:52
  Ben Whitelaw: Tune in for that one particular moment at at an undefined point in the future.
• 46:58
  Ben Whitelaw: Um.
• 46:59
  Ben Whitelaw: I mean, answer's clearly no.
• 47:01
  Ben Whitelaw: I mean, I don't think we, we should, we don't want to, because the podcast would probably cease to exist at that point.
• 47:07
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, but I don't think it, it can, I think that's what's fascinating about it.
• 47:11
  Ben Whitelaw: Um, the trade offs that we always talk about, think they're part of the system.
• 47:15
  Ben Whitelaw: I think they're, they're designed to be there, in many ways.
• 47:18
  Ben Whitelaw: And we sometimes talk about them as, kind of optional or, or a downside, but like, that's kind of part of why these companies have folks in these roles.
• 47:29
  Ben Whitelaw: So I don't think it will ever end.
• 47:31
  Ben Whitelaw: I don't think we'll ever be solved.
• 47:33
  Ben Whitelaw: and we'll be here to talk about it every step of the way.
• 47:36
  Mike Masnick: I mean, it's kind of like saying, you know, will crime ever be solved?
• 47:39
  Mike Masnick: Right.
• 47:39
  Mike Masnick: You know, like there are always going to be things that happen out there and, and you need, you know, in a society you need rules and, and enforcement and that is true in online speech as well.
• 47:50
  Mike Masnick: It's slightly different.
• 47:51
  Mike Masnick: There are some, some different issues there, but no, it's, it's not a solvable.
• 47:56
  Mike Masnick: Thing, it's not meant to be solved.
• 47:58
  Mike Masnick: There's always questions of a constant back and forth in terms of trade-offs and trying to improve things and trying to make the world a better place, in particular in the online world.
• 48:07
  Mike Masnick: But again, like a lot of that, as I've said over and over again, really reflects.
• 48:12
  Mike Masnick: Society itself and, and water society.
• 48:14
  Mike Masnick: And the issues that we see in online speech, in content moderation, in the regulations around all of it really are a reflection of societal issues.
• 48:25
  Mike Masnick: And I would love to think that we could live in a utopian world where there are no problems.
• 48:30
  Mike Masnick: but that's not really very realistic, I think.
• 48:33
  Mike Masnick: Um.
• 48:34
  Mike Masnick: And therefore, you know, I think part of what we're trying to do and part of what controlled Speech's role in the world is, is to try and shine a light on these things and the difficult choices and the trade-offs, but all in the hopes of pointing us generally in the direction of a better online world and hopefully beyond that, a better world overall.
• 48:55
  Ben Whitelaw: Yeah, for sure.
• 48:56
  Ben Whitelaw: that's a kind of very philosophical question to end on and I appreciate whoever sent that in, uh, giving us a chance to reflect on that.
• 49:03
  Ben Whitelaw: thanks to all listeners for getting in touch for.
• 49:06
  Ben Whitelaw: giving us a review both online and on paper for sending in questions.
• 49:12
  Ben Whitelaw: We really appreciate it.
• 49:13
  Ben Whitelaw: we hope that, that has been interesting for listeners and we've hopefully kind of unpacked a little bit more about how we, we think about the podcast.
• 49:20
  Ben Whitelaw: This is, the second of a couple of different episodes we've been trying out.
• 49:25
  Ben Whitelaw: In August while we've been traveling and, and on holiday and things.
• 49:29
  Ben Whitelaw: We're gonna take one more week off next week and then be back in September with our usual roundup of the week's news.
• 49:36
  Ben Whitelaw: that's all for this week, isn't it, Mike?
• 49:37
  Mike Masnick: I think so.
• 49:38
  Mike Masnick: I think so.
• 49:38
  Mike Masnick: But I'll, I'll just add in if you're gonna write a review, mention Ben.
• 49:44
  Ben Whitelaw: Amen to that.
• 49:45
  Ben Whitelaw: Uh, thanks everyone.
• 49:47
  Ben Whitelaw: Take care.
• 49:47
  Ben Whitelaw: see to you soon.
• 49:51
  Announcer: Thanks for listening to Ctrl-Alt-Speech.
• 49:53
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• 49:57
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• 50:04
  Announcer: That's CT RL alt speech.com.