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My Cross to Bear · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why We Do What We Do. Welcome
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: to Why We Do what We Do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: weathered host, Abraham, and.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: I'm your responsible host, dutiful host Shane.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: that humans and non human animals do. And hey, we
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: are at the beginning of the year, which is very exciting.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: That had nothing to do with my decision to choose
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: this topic that I chose today, But anyway, that's the
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: thing that happened, and I'm going to talk more about
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: our topic. But first I would like to say welcome,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: and I hope that you enjoy what you hear in
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: this episode today. If you're joining us for the first time,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: we're going to talk about some psychology stuff. Then at
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: the very end of this we're going to recommend some
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: things that are unrelated to that psychology stuff. And if
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: you are a returning person, then you know the format
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: you've been through it. Thank you for coming back. I
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: hope that you enjoy what you hear in this discussion today.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: But either way, it is twenty twenty six. This is
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: our first full length episode of twenty twenty six, So
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: welcome to twenty twenty six.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, here we are. It is also Distaff Day.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know what that means, but okay, sure it
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: is Harlem Globe Trotter's Day doing the Harlem shape entertaining.
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  Speaker 2: I love it. It is I'm not going to take it
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  Speaker 2: anymore day.
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  Speaker 1: Isn't it supposed to be We're not going to take it?
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  Speaker 2: No. I think this is a personal This is a
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  Speaker 2: personal mantra for this day.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: I got it. Yeah.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: It is International Programmer's Day, it is.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: It's also National Bobblehead Day, which is a lot of fun.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Shane and Abraham bubbleheads might be fun.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: That'd be a blat well for a five hundredth episode.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Oh there you go. I like it. Everyone's looking forward
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: to this. It's National past gas Day.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: M sure. It is National Tempora Day.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, that seems related. It is an Old Rocky Day. Okay, yeah,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: it is about Sylvester Stallone. You think, I.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Hope so, or just like old ice cream. I don't know.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: I like Old Rocky Road.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: It could be about a lot of things, I guess,
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  Speaker 2: would you know? It's it's all made up, so it
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  Speaker 2: doesn't matter.
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  Speaker 1: Also, I think it's just Old rock Day, not old
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  Speaker 1: Rocky Day. I think, I ad I just wanted there
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  Speaker 1: to be a why.
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  Speaker 2: You know what, though, I think that's perfectly okay.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's about Dwayn Johnson retiring.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: It could be, it could be. It could be also
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  Speaker 2: about like the band the Eagles and other old rock bands.
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  Speaker 1: There you go.
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  Speaker 2: I like it, yeah, as opposed to just like it's
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: like a day that geologists really love. I just like man,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: but we're taking we're taking holiday. It is Orthodox Christmas Day.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: It is Celebration of Life week. Sure, it's Congenital heart
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  Speaker 2: defect Awareness Week.
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  Speaker 1: Diet resolution week. That makes sense. We're at the beginning
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: of the year and all.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, National Lose weight, Feel Great Week.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: M yep, National Think your Customers Week.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is National time conscious this week Silent Record Week, yep.
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  Speaker 2: And then someday we'll laugh about this week.
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  Speaker 1: As in someday we'll laugh about the topic du jure.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Not really yeah maybe, but anyway, those are the holidays
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  Speaker 1: for today and this week. If you are joining us
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: for the first time, then maybe it comes us as
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: a surprise that we even do that. But we think
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: it's fun. But then we do other things that are
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: more directly related to the psychology topics at hand, and
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: today we are going to talk about I want to
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: give like an actual intro to lead into it. So
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: let me finish what little preamble there is left, which is,
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: if you'd like to support us, you can join us
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  Speaker 1: review like subscribe, tell a friend. I'll talk more about
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  Speaker 1: those ways that you can support us at the end
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: of the discussion. Now I think we're ready to dive in.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: Are you ready?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. So, several times when people have visited me where
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: I live, they have tried to do chores that I
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  Speaker 1: am accustomed to doing, and even when my partners sometimes
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  Speaker 1: do the chores that I'm used to doing. Weirdly, I
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  Speaker 1: find myself a little frustrated at these attempts to help,
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  Speaker 1: and the phrase my own cross to bear came to
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  Speaker 1: mind as me reflecting on what the reason might be
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  Speaker 1: that I don't want people doing those chores. There are
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  Speaker 1: other reasons, but the sense that it is my responsibility
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  Speaker 1: occurs to me as a reason I don't want other
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  Speaker 1: people doing the work that is my obligation, even though
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  Speaker 1: I hate doing those chores. So yeah, that's where this
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: topic sort of comes from in my wanting to talk
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: about it right now. And so I guess that leads
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: to the idea that we're essentially talking about. We're talking
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: about the sense of personal responsibility. And as I said, specifically,
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  Speaker 1: this phrase crossed my mind of my own cross to bear,
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: which is both dark and a little bit funny if
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: you think about it. But we'll get into that a
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  Speaker 1: little bit later. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's very interesting phenomenon to consider what is
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  Speaker 2: going on psychologically with the people who have this experience
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  Speaker 2: of responsibility for things like just general things like this,
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  Speaker 2: and feel compelled to be the only ones to do
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  Speaker 2: those things even when they don't like doing them.
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  Speaker 1: So we are going to talk about this idea of
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  Speaker 1: personal responsibility and what poorly thought out speculation people have
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  Speaker 1: engaged in to explain this, as well as look at
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  Speaker 1: some of the philosophy and science that is sort of
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: out there to talk about responsibility.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's go in dive in. The word responsibility
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  Speaker 2: has some familiar components response, which when we were talking
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  Speaker 2: about this before the episode started, like a lot of
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  Speaker 2: the behavior analysis research, response shows up a lot, but
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: for some reason responsibility does not right. But if we
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: kind of unpack this, we've got response, We've got r
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  Speaker 2: E at the beginning of the word we've got ib
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: I l I T so I B l E or
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: I b I l I T y. Sorry, I'm like,
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  Speaker 2: I'm like just like spouting letters all over the place.
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  Speaker 2: Responsibility is likely derived from the Latin root spondaire, which
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  Speaker 2: means to pledge re, which means black eric back. I'm
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: sorry that black re means back. See, I'm like stuttering
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  Speaker 2: all I have not had enough coffee today, so pardon me,
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  Speaker 2: podcast friends. It's e, which is a condition or state
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  Speaker 2: of forming the word respond airy spelled r E s
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  Speaker 2: p O n d E r E, which means to
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  Speaker 2: answer to and eventually responsibility, meaning the state of answering
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  Speaker 2: for something, which of course can be thought of as
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  Speaker 2: being obligated to something and accountable for that thing, meaning
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  Speaker 2: deserving of praise and credit if it works successfully, and
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: condemnation if it fails. So lots of stuff unpacked there
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  Speaker 2: just in the word responsibility.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know if it's always that helpful to
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  Speaker 1: dig into the etymology of words, but I do think
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: understanding a little bit like there are sometimes words that
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: have important roots and we don't even recognize that those
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: are there. And actually the word recognize is another good
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  Speaker 1: one where we have in their cognize as part of it.
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  Speaker 1: And that starts to you're like, oh, I hear that,
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  Speaker 1: and I think like cognition, and yes, that is where
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: that comes from. So like thinking about what those words
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  Speaker 1: mean or where they come from as part of what
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  Speaker 1: they mean can be I think helpful and understanding terms
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  Speaker 1: and why they exist and sort of why we feel
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  Speaker 1: about them, the way that we feel about them and
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  Speaker 1: sometimes how they morph over time. But yeah, I like
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  Speaker 1: digging into it. So that's sort of the the etymology
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: of responsibility. Of course, the phrase my own cross to bear,
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  Speaker 1: as I started with, has biblical origins, likely referring to
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  Speaker 1: Jesus' call to his followers to quote, take up their
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  Speaker 1: cross and follow me. Also in some passages take up
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  Speaker 1: their cross daily and follow me. If you're looking for this,
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  Speaker 1: this is in Matthew sixteen twenty four, Mark eight thirty four,
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  Speaker 1: and Luke nine three chapter paragraph, et cetera.
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  Speaker 2: Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah, no inclusion of the Book
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  Speaker 2: of Dave in there, right.
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  Speaker 1: So anyway, the cross they're talking about the cross here
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  Speaker 1: in their own their cross to bear, the cross being
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  Speaker 1: this ancient torture, mutilation, and murder device sure that people
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  Speaker 1: love to carry around with them. Ultimately, the phrase implies
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  Speaker 1: a willingness to take on an obligation even when it's
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  Speaker 1: not in your best interest and ultimately will end in
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  Speaker 1: your torture and probably even death, although it's used in
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  Speaker 1: a less dramatic circumstance contemporarily, I think, but it is.
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  Speaker 1: That's what I mean before when I said, like, it's
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  Speaker 1: kind of funny if you think about saying my own
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  Speaker 1: cross to bear and you're like this this chore that
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  Speaker 1: I have to do, is like like, I'm gonna this
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  Speaker 1: is the thing that will kill me, and I'm taking
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  Speaker 1: it on anyway.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's a little bit ridiculous.
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  Speaker 1: Yes it is. But I also kind of enjoy it
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  Speaker 1: for that reason, So it's I think it's great.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of fun. So there are two critical
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  Speaker 2: features of the idea of responsibility, credit or blame, and
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  Speaker 2: free will. The extent to which responsibility matters all lies
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: in how reinforcement or punishment is applied to the behavior
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  Speaker 2: rewards punishments for a behavior are generally assigned to the
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  Speaker 2: person who is said to be quote unquote responsible for
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  Speaker 2: that behavior, both in in general practice and in laws.
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  Speaker 2: So you'll see that, like, if somebody is responsible, there
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  Speaker 2: are contingencies present upon that person who is responsible for tasks, outcomes,
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  Speaker 2: whatever that might be.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, just thinking about like what do we mean when
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  Speaker 1: like what does it mean really practically when we're talking
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  Speaker 1: to responsibility and it's like do you receive credit or blame?
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  Speaker 1: Is there like a specific consequence for having done something?
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  Speaker 1: And like that we choose a person to whom they
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  Speaker 1: receive that. And the other implicit part of responsibility, which
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  Speaker 1: is kind of foundational to the first point, is this
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  Speaker 1: idea that the individual must have free will to be
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  Speaker 1: considered responsible.
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  Speaker 2: Right, if someone was forced by.
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  Speaker 1: Gun at gunpoint to do something they otherwise would not
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  Speaker 1: have done, they may not be thought of as being
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  Speaker 1: responsible for whatever that action was because someone else made
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  Speaker 1: them do that thing and they otherwise would not choose
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  Speaker 1: to do that thing, right, right, And so there there
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: is this issue here of freedom as being an important
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  Speaker 1: element that many have thought of it as being an
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: important element for this idea of responsibility to matter, right,
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: like someone essentially holding us hostage to play ads. Oh, okay,
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: we are back. We've been talking a little bit about
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: just the features of responsibility, thinking about what it is
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: and like what the implications are for how we use
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: that word and what it means.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so if someone did something they weren't supposed to
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  Speaker 2: do and there was no obvious sign that they were
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: being forced to do so against their will by someone else,
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  Speaker 2: then they are seen as deserving punishment for engaging in
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: whatever that is. So like it's essentially just kind of
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: like as we start to unpack this and we start
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  Speaker 2: to unpack the responsibility piece here, we have to like
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  Speaker 2: kind of take a second to go, this person is
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  Speaker 2: doing this. There's no sign of being forced or coercive
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  Speaker 2: or anything like that. They did something they weren't allowed
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  Speaker 2: to do, they weren't supposed to do, they weren't obligated
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  Speaker 2: to do, and they were not forced to do it.
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  Speaker 2: They can be the subject of punishment in that space.
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  Speaker 1: That's yeah, I think how it was generally approached and
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: thought of at like the policy level. Yeah. Now, okay,
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  Speaker 1: so this is all hinged on this idea of free will,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: and we have discussed free will before. But briefly, let's
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: just dig into it really quickly so that we're all
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: on the same page because we have a lot of
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: new listeners. The extent to which you can argue for
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: or against us having free will depends entirely on how
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: you define it. But either way, it is a pretty
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: useless term. It's a pretty useless idea, really, right. It
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: means either we are unaffected by our environmental circumstances and
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: we don't learn anything ever, which is like demonstrably false
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: and wrong, right, or else it means we do learn
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: and we adapt to our circumstances, and which it means
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  Speaker 1: nothing at all. So it's useless, right, point being couching
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: responsibility on the foundation of free will is so pointless
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: as to be counterproductive. So although most people insist on
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: that piece of it, I think we can talk about
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: it without that piece of it, because that piece of
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: it is useless.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it is. Now understanding the consequence is good
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: or bad that are fply to behavior are likely to
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: increase or decrease. The likelihood of behavior means there may
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: be some utility in assigning quote unquote responsibility. Even understanding
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: that the circumstances that produce the behavior in the first place,
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: we're not under the control of the individual in question.
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  Speaker 2: So put simply, we don't have to lean on the
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: idea of free will to advocate for assigning consequences for
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: a behavior. In fact, we basically never do. If we're
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: looking at the behaviorist perspective of.
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  Speaker 1: This, Yeah, like understanding that we as behaviorists think about
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: the conditions that give rise to behaviors that take place
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: in the first place. That like the behaviors that occur
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: in the first place, So we understand that like those
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: things shape up, encourage, incentivize, reinforce, and punish the precursor
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: behaviors that lead to whatever the thing is that somebody
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: does that is either praise worthy or punishment worthy, depending
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: on how you look at it. And we would still say,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: like we understand that, like, that's not that person's fault,
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: but like, the new set of circumstances that we apply
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: with respect to that behavior are going to alter the
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: likelihood of that behavior occurring again, meaning that whether or
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: not we think they're ultimately responsible for having done that thing,
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: as we apply either rewards or punishments to that behavior,
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: that's part of the situation that then gives rise to
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: the likelihood that they will do it again or not.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Right right?
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Does that make sense?
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Like we don't need free will to decide
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: that it makes sense to try and shape behavior because
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: the behavior got there somehow, and that had to do
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: with the rewards and punishments that other people have applied
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: to that behavior in the past, as well as like
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: natural contingencies, and so yeah, you can just be slightly
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: more deliberate about that and thinking about the what do
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: we want to have happen more or less in what
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: people are doing. So yeah, okay, hopefully that all sort
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: of made sense. We're sort of deep. We're early in
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: the year and have gone deep in the weeds of philosophy,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: and we're about to get even deeper into the weeds
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: of philosophy because the next part here is talking about
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: actual philosophy. So we're going to dig into the psychology
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: philosophy and sort of a behaviorist view on thinking about
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: this idea of obligation in a sense of responsibility.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because we're diving into philosophy, let's go ahead start
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: with an easy one, an easy end of philosophy, which
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: is Frederick Nietzsche or Nietzsche or however you want to
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: say that super easy. Thus spoke Zarathrustra and all that
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: fun stuff like just totally consumable, accessible to people, like
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: they should teach it in kindergarten, right. He actually often
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: wrote about personal responsibility, arguing that individuals should take responsibility
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: for their lives, actions, and values. He wrote quote it's
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: your road and yours alone. Others may walk it with you,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: but no one can walk it for you. End quote.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: But he also did not believe in selfish individualism, instead
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: emphasizing the connectedness of all things, he believed that people
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: should recognize the effects that their actions have on others.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: So yes, it was this idea of personal responsibility, but
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: also not to the point of it being like I
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: have no obligation to other people at all. That would
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: not be what he argued, but instead thinking like, part
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: of my responsibility is recognizing my place in the general
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: societal tapestry in which we live. And certain people will
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: definitely like pull out quotes to argue against this idea,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: because he did say he was kind of someone who
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: did talk about like selfishness as kind of a virtue
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: in a sense, But he did also emphasize sort of
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: our role in a society, if you will, so come
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: at me, bro and I'm happy to read corrections, but
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: that is generally, I think a way that you could
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: sort of talk about where he came from on that.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: So anyway that brings us to our next philosopher we're
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: going to impact. This is German philosopher and Manuel Kant,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: and he based his entire argument about personal responsibility on
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: free will, and we've already tackled that, so that nonsense aside.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: He argued that we must choose moral law and act
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: from duty and not just an accordance with duty. So
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: act from duty, not just in accordance with it, and
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: that is, we choose to act morally because it's the
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: right thing to do, not just because we're told that
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: we must do so and sort of comply with that instruction. Thus,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: we must have self determination to choose what is morally
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: right and be responsible for those actions. So that's sort
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: of Kant's general position on this, leaning heavily on the
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: idea of free will. But even if we just take
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: that out, we can accept the idea that he's communicating
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: that it is a thing that we choose.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't say that I understood anything that Kant said,
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: and mostly because I wasn't paying attention, and I can't understand.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: But I couldn't because my philosophy teacher had a very
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: thick accent, and I really had a hard time like
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: catching what he was saying when I was in when
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: I was in school, when I was taking a brick
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: and mortar cloud, and also was going through a pretty
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: nearly breakup at the time, so I was not at
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: all paying attention. So, like those two things together, when
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: I was supposed to be learning about Emmanuel content, I
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: did not. So I'm just gonna skip right past his
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: and go write the Aristotle because I did listen to
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: aristotle stuff and I did read some of his stuff. Okay,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: So Aristota believed that we must use our knowledge to
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: choose our actions, and through self control and repeated demonstration
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: of moral behaviors, we shape our own virtuosity and determine
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: the kind of people we become. Thus, he saw knowledge
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: as key to being individually responsible for making good choices.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Also, freewill was very important to him. But yeah, I
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: think again, we can just throw that part out because
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: it's useless. Sure, So we'll hold on to the parts
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: that have something to say that has any substance whatsoever.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: So that's how philosophers have talked about this. There's obviously
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: a lot more that we could bring in, but I
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: thought it was just worth sampling some of the ones
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: who stood out as having something explicit to say on
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: this and who are relatively well known. Go check them
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: out if you're curious about reading more on what they
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: have to say. Yeah. But psychologists also write on this
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: as well, and they tend to have two approaches that
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: are more or less aligned together. Again, they sort of
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: depend on one another. But the first idea that they
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: often communicate in the psychology space about responsibility is this
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: victim mindset. We actually unpacked this in a mini but
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: to recap that briefly, this idea requires free will and
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: is mostly used to criticize people who have been repeatedly
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: disenfranchised by various systems, and it's dumb and counterproductive.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: So the victim mindset thing that they also lean on
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: as a huge part of their argument is dumb, and
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: we're going to throw it out so we can simply
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: write this part of their argument is derelict superfluous, vacuous
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: dribble and throw it in the trash.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Ooh, I have a question for you. Yeah, tell us
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: a little bit about what derelict means.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: All right, derelic more or less means rundown. It's in
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: poor condition, as usually is, like through disuse, through neglect.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: It's just sort of broken down. There's a great hilarious
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: bit in Zoolander where it is the line of clothing
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: hair releases called darre leaked, and it looks like like
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: people wearing trash. Pretty funny. So anyway, that's what what
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: darrelicket means. Any of those other ones we need to impack.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: I feel good with superfluous and vacuous dribble. Okay, those
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: seem like pretty common phrases that.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: I use on a day to day basis, particularly with
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: the current administration. Vacuous is the nicest thing that you
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: could say about them.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Same thing with ads.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, we are back. We've been talking about what psychologists
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: have had to say about this idea of responsibility and
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: decided that the first part of this, this idea of
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: victim mindset, was useless, and so we're throwing in the trash.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's get to the other parts of the
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: arguments that they've mean. So the other part of their
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: argument seems to be organized around empowerment of people to
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: feel in control of their lives. They recommend that it
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: is important for people to feel that they can make choices,
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: even when those choices feel difficult and out of reach.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so one similar position recommends this thing they call
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: one hundred percent responsibility. And specifically, it's like in the
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: way we see our own participation the things that happen
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: to us. But more importantly, and I think more to
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: the point of what they are advocating here, is how
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: we choose to react to those things. Sure, we can't
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: change the fact that it happened, but we can respond
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: to it as the way that we respond to it
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: as something within our control. And so it's sort of
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: really and I actually do see some usefulness here and
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: this idea of like think about like what you can
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: be doing. Like it's true that like this is something
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: that was unavoidable that happened to you and it sucks. Yeah,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: now it's the opportunity for you to take on and
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: do this in a way that's meaningful and helpful for you.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: I do see some utility and trying to coach people
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: in that way where it's like it's not your fault
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: and like, let's see if we can make the most
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: the most productive we can given the terribleness of the situation.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's reasonable. So the idea of this
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: is to encourage people to see all circumstances as an
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: opportunity to take action in line with their values, which
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: I actually really like that general idea, Like, Okay, we
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: can look at it the circumstances, we can look at
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: our values. We can take action that align with those values,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: And this can be a helpful way to help people
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: get into action when they might otherwise feel stuck or
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: unable to react to anything. They may kind of have
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: a moment where they're like, I don't even know what
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: to do in the circumstance. So here's some ways that
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: I can kind of like take on a choice that
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: might be difficult given the circumstances, and I might make
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: a choice based on a number of factors.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's like people feel stuck. Like, again, there's
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: no point in like assigning blame here. It's just like
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: if you don't have any tools for thinking about what
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: can I do in the situation. It's easy to understand
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: how in a terrible situation, the only you thought you
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: have is like I am stuck. I don't know where
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: to go. And so I think just empowering people to
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: see that as an opportunity to make a kind of
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: deliberate choice can be an empowering thing. I can get
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: behind that sort of in theory, you know, as long
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: as we're not doing to blame the victim thing, which
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: we wouldn't be advocating for. But I think I do
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: feel like I got that sense a little bit from
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: some of the discussion that I was reading about. Yeah, yeah,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: and from some of these psychologists. But anyway, so let's
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: get into this from sort of more into the behavioral
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: view that we would tend to espouse. We've largely been
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: arguing like what philosophers have said, what other psychologists have said,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: and critiquing their contrabs a bit, but there's also like,
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: how how would we approach this or think about this
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: through sort of behavioral philosophy? Right, And one concept that
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: many people will likely have heard of is called learned helplessness.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: We actually did do a mini on this a while ago. Also,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: in short, it comes from the concept that in these
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: there were these experiments that people did in which animals
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: received an electric shock and there was nothing that they
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: could do to escape the electric shock. They couldn't stop it,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: they couldn't get away from it. They just kept happening repeatedly,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: over and over again, and eventually they just gave up
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: and lay there accepting the electric shock because there's literally
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: nothing else that they could do. So then from that
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: was born this term learned helplessness.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this has been applied metaphorically to people learning
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: to give up in the face of unavoidable aversive situations.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: They learned that there is nothing they can do to
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: change their circumstances, so they just stopped trying. Calling this
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: victimhood is belligerent and counterproductive and stupid and we don't
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: like it, so we don't do that here. It is
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: understandable that people learn to give up, though, and it
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: is also understandable to try to empower them to work
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: through the aversion this and keep trying anyway, Like there's
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: benefits to that side of it, for sure.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So just you know, understanding how that piece works
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: and why people respond that way, and then thinking again,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: like there's some utility and having them feel like they
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: have a choice. But calling this victimhood or a victim
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: mindset is just ridiculous and dumb and counterproductive. Yeah, but
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: there are other So I think learned helplessness is an
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: important piece and thinking about understanding part of what's happening
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: here for people who looks like they're not taking responsibility
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: if you will, right, But there are other concepts in
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: this space as far as thinking about obligation and responsibility
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: that are sort of what we would we would call
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: direct acting contingency as well as values and language. And
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: so let's start with direct acting contingencies, and essentially what
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: we mean by that is like, these are the actual
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: immediate circumstances that occur when people do or do not
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: choose to be responsible for things.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so there are multiple contingencies. I always struggle with
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: the word contingencies, even though we say it all the time,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: because I think I say it too fast. Contingencies. Yes,
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: a nice and slow make sure you hit every one
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: of those contingencies, beautiful. There are multiple contingencies that are
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: likely to result in this idea of my own cross
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: to bear. One of the most prevalent is money. There
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: are many jobs that, even though people may not enjoy
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: them very much, they feel an obligation and sense of
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: ownership over that job because it is how they make money.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: They may not like doing it, but they don't want
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: anyone else to do it because then they wouldn't get paid.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's that simple.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's not going to be the case for everybody,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: but that is a situation that's some people are in,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: and that's like why they have a sense of like,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: this is my job and nobody else's. That's one reason
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: for some people that will be the case is because money.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: But another direct acting contingency is just the consequence of
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: choosing sort of self responsible things. People frequently acknowledge and
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: provide social approval for the times when people do their
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: own work, and on the other hand, there is social
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: disapproval for failing to do your own work. And of
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: course this means that there are people who are just
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: as likely to take credit for other people's work so
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: that they can both earn the social acknowledgment for being
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: believed to have done something without having actually done put
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: forth any effort whatsoever. We call them CEOs Ooh, but
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: some people understand that the disapproval they'd face for falsely
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: taking credit is too great a risk, and therefore they
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: prefer to have actually earned the praise in their social groups.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: This isn't the case for everyone, of course, but the
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: point being that like people that are around us, the
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: people who see the things that we do, the actions
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: that we take, like, we will receive some kind of
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: social commentary from our audience, sure around when we choose
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: or don't choose to be responsible for things.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: This is definitely one of the most important factors for me.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: As I said, this episode sort of starts from a
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: place of self reflection at least in wanting to take
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: on this topic. And when I was thinking about this
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: sense of like why I don't like it when other
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: people do my chores for me? This piece is one
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: of them. I have a very long history of the
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: aversive consequences for not meeting the obligations that were foisted
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: upon me, whether or not they are fair or something
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: that I have any interest in. It makes me want
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: to not allow others to take on that responsibility even
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: though I hate it. And people maybe have been hearing
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: this and wondering what specific obligation is he talking about
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: It's dishes. I always do the dishes. I hate doing
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: the dishes. I hate them so much, but I don't
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: want anyone else to do them. It's my job. It's
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: my chore. It's the thing that I have to do
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: unless I'm paying them. I do feel like I've thought
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: about this. I'm like, if I'm paying someone else to
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: do the chore that would normally do, then I don't
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: feel bad about them doing that chore because like, I'm
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: still I have to sacrifice something for that chore to
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: be done, and I'm not making someone else take this
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: obligation on. But anyway, point being that, like this idea
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: of a lot of punishment for me for not doing
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: that thing has me have this weird sense of ownership
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: over it, which is probably the most ridiculous thing. Most
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: people don't ever think about their obligations this way. Do
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: not use this as a strategy to try and get
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: people to want to do things, because I don't think
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: it's going to necessarily work with them the way that
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: it did with me. Sure, but that is how I
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: find myself there.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I don't know if
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: you're hearing this, and you are you hearing this in
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: your headset? Maybe this is just me, but like it
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: sounds like there's a noise in your background.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: I'm not hearing anything.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Oh you know what it is. It sounds like somebody
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: is doing dishes in your house. You better go stop them.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: So we're gonna take an ad break while Abraham goes
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: to handle this. Okay, So at this point in time,
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: we are talking about personal responsibility obligation contingencies, and specifically
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: the direct contingencies. So let's go and unpack that kind
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: of going forward. Now that we know that Abraham doesn't
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: like doing dishes and that we're going to avoid doing
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: dishes at his house. So other direct, albeit somewhat indirect,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: are the general social expectations around responsibility that are or
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: are not made obvious to us. The extent to which
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: those behaviors are something we observe early or later in life,
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: the extent to which our social circles make those expectations
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: known and reward or punish others for behaving in line
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: with or out of line with those expectations. So well,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: there's lots of things kind of going on there. But
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: put simply, we are influenced in how much we are
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: made aware of the idea of personal responsibility and how
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: much we observe it in those around us.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of just generally like what do the
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: people in our social groups expect of us, and how
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: well do we know that, and how much have we
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: been given an opportunity to observe that taking place and
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: potentially to even try engaging in those types of behaviors.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: So anyway, that is like sort of the most distal
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: if you will, but it is still one that is
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: like the direct circumstances are such that we have to
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: be aware of what it is and have had an
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: opportunity likely to have observed it happening, and then had
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: an opportunity to do it ourselves, so that the people
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: around us could either reward or punish those behaviors as
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: is in line with whatever the cultural values exist with
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: respect to that. So yeah, that's I think it's a
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: broad contingency, but it is what I would sort of
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: think of as direct acting in the sense that it's
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: like there are specific outcomes for specific behaviors that are
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: under the control I guess of our sort of social environment. Sure, now,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: one final and arguably the most important variable that accounts
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: for this feeling that something might be as I've described,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: my own cross to bear, so my own obligation, my job. Whatever.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Is our language, and how our language shapes our values
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: and how we arrive at this is of course learned.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: We weren't born speaking any particular language, after all, and
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: our values are therefore verbally constructed, ongoing developed things that
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: influencer behaviors and affect how certain outcomes and situations will
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: function for us. Will the outcome function as a reward
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: or a punishment is something that's actually mediated directly and
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: indirectly through sort of our language and values about those outcomes.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: It's not necessarily that, Like praise does not always function
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: as a reward for all people. Praise can be something
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: that is aversive that someone does not want. I think
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: I mentioned before, I personally don't really like being thanked
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: for something I was coerced into doing. So, Like, well,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: let's say thank you as usually a reward at least
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: in some capacity for some people, and they look for that.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: They like hearing the thank you, Like if I was
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: forced to do something I didn't want to do, Saying
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: thank you feels like rubbing salt in the wound. Sure,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, I didn't do this for you, you
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: are not welcome, right, So anyway, I think just acknowledging that,
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: like how things function as an outcome depends on at
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: least in part, our language about those things.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that makes perfect sense. Now, a sense
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: of responsibility or obligation for some burden will likely be
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: at least in part governed buyer values. If I value independence,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: I will likely do chores and commit to obligations simply
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: because doing so allows me to not be reliant on others,
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: which might be specifically important to me for a variety
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: of reasons. So that is, completing those tasks creates a
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: feeling of accomplishment that I can do those things, not
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: the need to recruit others. And there may be some
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: other things there too, Like I believe Pat Freman talks
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: about this idea of like signs of repair. So like
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: if there's signs of damage as a function of behavior,
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: signs of repair, we're like some completed project, like something
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: is clean, something is fixed, something is restored. Like there's
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: some like some reinforcement inside of that too.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Sure, absolutely, and I think it is tough to think about,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: like how do we know we've achieved independence? What does
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: it mean to have independence? But that's where I think
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: you sort of get this. Your language can shape like
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: your own experience of I call that a thing I
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: did independently, and therefore I feel good about it. If sure,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: independence is the value as another example, like let's take
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: a different value. So for that one, that was a
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: value of independence. But if I value commitment, I will
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: likely follow through in promises or obligations because when I
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: do this, I feel a sense of authentic personal fulfillment.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: And again, it's even if this obligation is something I
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: didn't want to do, I'd still might feel good about
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: the correspondence between saying I would do something and then
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: following through on that promise to do something sure, And
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: that is actually again for me, one of the other
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: variables I feel is relevant about how I feel about
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: doing the dishes is that like it was something I
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: sort of committed to doing, and therefore doing what I
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: said I was going to do has me feel like
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: I genuinely did the thing, Like I what I did
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: was in correspondence with what I said was I was
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: going to do, and that feels correct and appropriate to
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: me because of that correspondence. And so there's a sense
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: of that commitment thing that is like a value that
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: affects the outcome of having them be done. Is I've
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: fulfilled on my commitment to things?
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. Now, if I value teamworker cooperation,
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: I will likely engage in tasks and those obligations that
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: benefit my group like my partner, my spouse, my coworkers,
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: my friends, whoever might be. And I'm doing so the
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: fact that my contribution helped my group makes the outcome
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: feel worth it, even if I didn't enjoy the task
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: and might not have otherwise chosen it in a different
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: situation or circumstance.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, this idea that I know that what
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: I'm doing is not something I want to do, but
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: it does help my team, my group, and therefore I'm
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: okay with doing it, like I will take it on.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: I'll take it on without complaint. It is the thing
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: because I know that it helps ultimately.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: Another one is this idea of perseverance, And this one's
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: very similar to commitment, I think, but it's like doing
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: things to their conclusion just because we started them. So
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: and sometimes there isn't always like a clear conclusion, but
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: I think like in this I'm definitely one of those
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: people where it's like I start something, I feel like
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: I need to finish it, even if I realize part
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: way through I'm not really enjoying this thing, Like many
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: movies I've watched in TV shows like seasons I finished,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: where I'm like, this isn't really very good and I
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: still finished it anyway, is the sense of perseverance, and
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: I do think that's one that's actually important for a
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: lot of people, is the sense of like, I've already
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: sung so much time and effort into it, I may
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: as well just see it through to the end, right right,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: And so there there's something about like, again, there's a
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: correspondence between this narrative that something has a finish line
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: at some point and that I did the work to
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: get to that finish line, and that having those two
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: things link has sort of inherent rewarding properties, if you will,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: And it's completely governed by the language that sort of
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: shapes the idea that like, I need to finish this
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: because I started it, and I think a lot of
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: people I'm assuming you have that experience sometimes.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've had to learn not to be a completionist
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: because like for a long time, I would like spend
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: so much time and energy on something that I did
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: not want to do. Then it was like what's the
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: what's the benefit of this? Like I had to learn
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: to do this with books, Like I spent a lot
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: of time reading books that I was like, ooh, this
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: is bad. I got to be okay with like letting
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: this go and not spending an extra ten to twelve
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: hours reading this book that I'm never going to get back.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: So like I've had to learn to do that just
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: because like it has not been you know, it's been
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: a long time since I've done that, and I never
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: Just so everybody is listening that thinks that I'm patting
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: my numbers with books that I that I don't read
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: as like my numbers for the year. No, I always
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: finish the books on my list. The ones that I
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: do not finish, I put in a different list than
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: I put somewhere else because no things.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Beautiful and another one that I think is important here
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: is this another value here kind of I guess it
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: falls into this is just like a love and compassion
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: for certain people that are around us, like we might
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: not we might do things or might not do things
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: depending on like who it's for in our relationship to
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: that person, not because we're asked or expected to do
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: those things, but because it's sort of in service of
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: someone we care about. Sure, and so it's sort of
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: like I might feel a sense of duty and obligation
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: to do a thing just because that thing would make
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: someone else happy that I feel that maybe care about.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: So I think that's another part where we see, like
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: our language and values shapes the outcome and consequence of
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: like it's a task that we don't like, but we
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: do it because it makes someone else's life better.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that makes sense. And these are just
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: some examples of how language and our values will change
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: the effect that the tasks or the outcome of the
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: tasks has on our decision to follow through on that commitment.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: So just language in general can have such a huge
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: influence on the way that we think about things, the
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: way that we follow through on things, the way that
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: we perceive things. It really does make quite a difference.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: It's worth acknowledging, I think to say that, like people
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: will stick to and do things and feel like they
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: are obliged to persevere and stuff, and we see the
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: way that they do that and it looks ridiculous to
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: us maybe sometimes and maybe they are like actually kind
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: of ridiculous in some ways. But those are things that
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: will persist because they comport with the values of the
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: person performing them. And it helps, I think, to understand
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: that that is some of the driver behind the ridiculous
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: things that we see people do when we're looking at
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: them going like why are you still reading that book
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: that you hate and understanding that like for them, that
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: completionist piece, the perseverance is of maybe a value that
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: they have or you know, why are you doing this
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: other thing that people do? And again, like there is
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: a value, There is a reinforcer, There is like a
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: circumstance as compelling that behavior that maybe got shaped up
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: over a long time, and to us it feels ridiculous
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: and pointless, and to them it feels like, yeah, well
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: I'm going to do it anyway because yeah, yeah, because
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: I feel that I must. And like, even if they
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: can't necessarily articulate what value was there? What motivation is
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: there for them? Like if we were to be able
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: to dig through their past, we would likely find the
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: circumstances that started to shape those behaviors in that person,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: whether or not they were sort of consciously aware of it,
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: it started to happen anyway.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I think you nailed it.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, just because somebody sticks to the thing doesn't
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: mean that it's a thing worth sticking to. It might
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: be ridiculous, but it might also be awesome and it
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: might be great for them. And oftentimes, I think probably
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: more often than not, we generally appreciate that people stick
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: to those commitments because we come to expect that of
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: them in many spaces.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: All right, So I think all of that is to say,
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: wrapping all of this up and thinking about how we
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: would just sort of summarize the main points that we
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: made here is to interject and add, okay, we're back.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: We're actually going to we are going to do our
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: take on points and then and we'll wrap that up
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: and then we'll get to our recommendations, which is the
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: fun stuff at the end, the icing on the cake,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: if you will. Yeah, the amuse boush post meal, which
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: makes it not an amuse boosh. But anyway, major take
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: on points for me in this conversation are thinking about
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: the fact that a lot of what has been said
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: and thought about responsibility depends on this idea of free
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: will and belittling people as victims. I think this is
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: childish and foolish and a very Jordan Peterson thing to do,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: which means pathetically stupid. Yeah, I think we can safely
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: get rid of those because they just make you a
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: bad person and make you bad at thinking about human
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: behavior in a productive way.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, direct acting contingencies and our values are some
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: of the most powerful and important reasons we feel obligated
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: to carry on with the tasks that we might not
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: otherwise prefer to do. So those contingencies can really influence
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: people in these ways that I don't think that we
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: spend enough time analyzing as general people as behavior as
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: we spend so much time analyzing him. But like as
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: general people as a population, we don't really look at
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: those in as meaningful a way as we could.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: But those are likely like the things that are the
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: most useful to be thinking about and identifying when we're
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: trying to understand why people do the things that they do. Yeah,
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: and specifically why in this particular sense they feel obligated
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: to carry on with things that they dislike and don't
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: want anyone else to take on that responsibility. It's like
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: it's theirs, it's their responsibility right now. Just because there
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: is a reasonable explanation for why someone does something doesn't
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: make that a reasonable thing for them to do. There
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: might be really good logical arguments against them doing that thing.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: There also might be really good reasons and arguments for
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: them doing that thing. So just as a consideration, I
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: always worry sometimes that we sound a little bit too
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: much like we're saying nobody should ever be held responsible
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: for anything, and a little bit too much like saying
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: everything that people do is perfectly justified. That's not the case, yeah,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: But I think it's just the point is that when
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: we're trying to understand behavior, we need to be thinking
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: about it contextually and get rid of those silly, superfluous
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: ideas that don't help, and that then we can I think,
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: be more deliberate and nuanced and or understanding here. And
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: except that like people do unreasonable things, they do they're
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: not reasonable. We understand why they do them, but they're
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: not reasonable, right, And it's therefore worth considering that those
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: things need to not happen or happen differently than the
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: way that they're happening, right, and that that is not
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: in a position that is inappropriate. So that's I just
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: want to be careful that we don't end up feeling
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: like we're saying like nobody ever does anything wrong and
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: there's nothing we should ever do about it. That's not
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: that's not the argument where I'm making here, right right?
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: Absolutely?
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I think that is what we have to
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: say about this idea of feeling personally obliged and obligated
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: to do things and unwilling to relinquish those tasks to others.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: Is there anything else you would like to add before
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: we start to wrap up?
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: No, I think that covers it.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, Then let's get to the fun part here in
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: a moment, which is that we like to recommend some things,
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: and those things that we recommend are generally unrelated to
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: the topic at hand, which will be the case now.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: But it's fun because it's fun, and that's all that
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: needs to be said about that part, I think, except
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: that before we get to the recommendations, we also do
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: the credits. So thank you everyone for listening. If you
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: would like to tell us your thoughts on your on
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: my own bear or the sense of personal responsibility. You
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: may email us directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: or reach out to us on the social media platforms,
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: and we look forward to hearing from you. So please
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: do that thing. If you do like the show and
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: you like to support us, you can join us on
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: Patreon and over there and get some behind the scenes content,
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: early episodes, ad free stuff, all that sort of thing.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: And at the end of our full length discussions why
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: most people join is that I will read the list
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: of names of people who have helped us over there
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: on Patreon, because they help support the show. They just
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: they help, They really do, and it's really wonderful and
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: we appreciate them so gigantic mega. Thank you too, Mike
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: m Meghan, Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley,
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Kiara and Charlie. Thank you for being our supporters. We
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: could not do this without you.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: Ah, You're the best.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much to my team of people recording
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: with me. Writing in fact checking comes from Shane and myself,
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: so thank you for recording with me today.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Shane, Hey, anytime.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson, and the audio
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: engineer producer who makes this sound like a podcast is Justin,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: who had a lot of work to do today in particular,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: So thank you, Justin.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, thank you. We referenced him as a possible depressed
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: robot earlier in.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: Reference to a book recording.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, before we started recording. I don't think that's the case,
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: but you don't know because you all have never seen them. Yes, exactly,
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: Justin Greenhouse does sound like a fake name, though.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: It does it It is now like a character, okay, yes,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: like George Glass. All right, well, leave us a rating
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: and a review actually really helps. You can do just
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: a rating or you can do a review on top
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: of that, and either one is great. It really helps.
• 46:49
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• 46:50
  Speaker 1: five stars, and if you've got some time, write a
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: sentence or two or a few words about what you
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: found valuable in this podcast. Telling a friend is very helpful.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: We do have a merch store that's it's still broken
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: then I'm still trying to fix, but eventually that will
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: be a thing like and subscribe, So wherever you're listening
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: to it, just just thumbs up and subscribe to you
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: catch all of our episodes. And now now I think
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: that's things that I have to say or become a follower.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: Maybe that's more of the thing on Spotify is like
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: you follow, you don't subscribe, but those are whatever the
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: platform offers as your way of receiving continuous updates from us.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: It helps us when people do that because then the
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: algorithm's like, oh, people are really into this, and then
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: it recommends it for more people. Right now, I think
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: we're at the point where we can recommend some things.
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, let's do it recommendations.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: All right, I'm recommending a movie. It is very recent.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: I've talked about it a little bit on a year
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: end wrap up. If for the people who heard that episode,
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: they heard me talk about this. But this is called
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: Wake Up, dead Man, a Knives Out mystery. So if
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: you have watched any of the Knives Out movies, there's
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: this character, Ben wall Blanc, who's this extraordinary private detective
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: who's really good at seeing all the sort of puzzle
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: pieces fit together in a mystery. And it's always some
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: sort of murder mystery in a sense. The first movie
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: Knives Out, and then the next one was Glass Onion,
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: and then this one Wake Up dead Man. There is
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: literally nothing at all across those three movies that ties
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: them together except for ben Wan Blanc. If you did
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: not watch Knives Out, you could watch Glass, Onion or
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: Wake Up dead Man and you would totally get what's
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: going on, because there is nothing that you need from
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: those movies to have seen this one. Nevertheless, they do
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: kind of fit together in almost a trilogy like format,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: but it's really just following the adventures of this one
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: character played by Daniel Craig, unless if people haven't seen it.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: But this one's got a great cast, and you've got
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: Kaylee Spainey, Andrew Scott, Meela Kunis, Jeremy Renner, Thomas Hayden Church,
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: Josh Brolin, Joseph Gore, Levitt is in here, Jeffrey Wright,
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: there is. It's a really really good cast. So people
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: who I think are interested in sort of mystery crime
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: and then just really good storytelling. This is a fun one,
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: I will one for those people who struggle with this.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: It's got a lot of narration, which the other two
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: movies did not, but this is uh, this one does
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: and it still is a is still really well done,
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: so fun movie. It's available through I think it was
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: actually Netflix was one of the primary backers of this,
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: so it's available on Netflix.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: You know, these movies are really great for like having
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: their ensemble casts, so like that's I think that's part
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: of the fun of these movies. Like they're really well written,
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: they're very clever. But one of my favorite things is
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: to having these like ensemble casts that you just wouldn't
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: expect people to like shine through, which is really cool.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and this one, I think it takes a
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: while to like build up to sort of the I
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: think Glenn closest in this too, to build up to
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: like the mystery, yeah, or like the murder, and then
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: sort of seeing how we're unfold So it has a
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: really fun like you're trying to put the pieces together
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: as the movie is playing out, and like you're given
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: just enough to like have some educated guesses. Yeah, but
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: then they I think they do a good job making
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: everything ultimately make sense in the end.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fun. I love that, all right. My recommendation
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: is gonna be a piece of gear. So I am.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: We've been talking about both of us being musicians on
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: the show before, and one thing that I love is
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: like being able to try out new gear and see
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: what works and like what's cool and what I like
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: and stuff. So I just recorded a new cover song
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: of a band called Digits. The song is called Mama
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: Had a Skull Baby, which is a great like trash
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: punk record song. Like it's like a weird it's the
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: weird loud, noisy thing. But I decided to use a
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: new pedal that I got for Christmas to play around
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: with on my bass guitar, and that is the full
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: tone OCD overdrive guitar pedal.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: Cool.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: This thing, ugh, it just is I like a good
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: distortion and overdrive on like a bassic Like. I think
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: that sounds really nice. I think it gives it like
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: a nice little flavor to it. I don't like really
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: clean sounding basses, and this is one that I've wanted
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: for some time just to kind of play around with.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: I got to play this and love it so on
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: this recording that's going to come out sometime in January,
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: I have this pedal on my base and it sounds
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: so good, so I can't wait to record more with it.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: But if you like, if you're a musician and you
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: like playing around with like gear, and pedals and stuff
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: like that. It's a really cool pedal to mess with,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: so get your hands on one if you can.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: Fun.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, very good.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: So that's the full tone OCD Overdrive guitar pedal and
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: then the movie Wake Up dead Man that is available
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: on Netflix. So those are recommendations. All right, Well, I
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: think that that is what we have to say for
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: this episode. Is there anything you'd like to add or
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: anything that I forgot before we sayah, goodbyes.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: No, thank you for being here, folks.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, perfect, all right, what a way to kick off
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: the year. But we'll go ahead and let you go there.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: So thank you all for listening. This is Abraham, this
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: is Shane. We're out.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: See ye you've been listening to Why We Do What
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: We Do. You can learn more about this and other
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: episodes by going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening,
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: and we hope you have an awesome day.