Latest / Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth / 113: Denise Hayman, CRO at Sonrai Security talks journey in cyber security and her biggest learnings

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113: Denise Hayman, CRO at Sonrai Security talks journey in cyber security and her biggest learnings · Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth

0:42
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to episode 113 of the Sales Bluebird podcast, which exists because at B2B startups it's hard to get go-to-market fit, grow revenue, and scale the sales team.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: Sales Bluebird provides tips, tricks, experiences, examples, ideas, and inspiration from people who've been doing this for many years and at many companies.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: Because we want your path to go to market fit and beyond to be less walky so that you can grow sales faster.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: I am your host, Andrew Monahan, and our guest today is Denise Heyman, Chief Revenue Officer, CRO at Sunray Security.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: Denise, welcome to the podcast.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, looking forward to our discussion because you've got a rich history in cybersecurity sales leadership.
1:30
SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a lot that we can talk about today.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: But before we get into it, I want to say to our listeners, I want to hear from you.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: What questions or topics do you have that are top of mind for you that you're wrestling with, that are burning a hole in your brain that you're thinking too much about and you wonder if uh you get some help tackling it from other people.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: Send them through to me and we can tackle them on future podcast episodes either with me myself or me myself with one of the guests as well.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: Email me directly at andrew at unstoppable.do.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: That's do at the end.com.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: Or you can message me with video or audio if that's easier for you at zipmessage.com forward slash unstoppable.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: So send me through those topics or questions.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: So Denise, six questions to get to know the real you.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: And these are quick answers.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: They're not up for debates and depends and maybes, and you know, I'm not reassurers and all the rest of it.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: All right.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: So go with the go with the questions.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: Question number one uh dive bar or cocktail bar?
2:34
SPEAKER_00: Oh, cocktail bar.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: Sweet of the four seasons or cabin in the woods?
2:38
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a hard one.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: It depends on where I am on the quarter.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: Probably sweet of the four seasons.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: Tricked out Jeep or German car with all the gadgets?
2:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh, German car.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: Luxury all the way.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: Beach or mountains.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: Beach.
2:54
SPEAKER_01: And they say home is where the heart is.
2:56
SPEAKER_01: Where is home for you?
2:59
SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: I've lived a lot of places.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: I you know, I grew up in New England.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: I think Boston is my home.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: That's the that's where the heart is where the spiritual home is.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: That's where my heart resides, yes.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people when they come from New England have that, no matter where they end up in the world.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: My wife grew up there.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: And some of her family are just had that same connection back, even though they might not live there anymore.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: It's one of those places, right?
3:21
SPEAKER_00: It is, it is.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: And the final question: how did you first make money as a kid?
3:28
SPEAKER_00: Uh how did I first uh babysitting, you know, at a young age, babysitting, and then later I scooped ice cream.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: Those were my two first ones.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: At a store or at a cart or uh at a at an ice cream shop, uh little local ice cream shop that was Summers.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: I often think that that must be quite a fun job to do.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: It's fun, but it's amazing how much you don't want ice cream after you work at a place like that because you all you you come out smelling like you know overrun dairy.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: Right.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, some of the flavors are quite strong, right?
4:05
SPEAKER_01: Cool.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: All right.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about the professional history of Denise.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: So when I look at your LinkedIn profile, your resume going back, what I see is a whole ton of leadership positions at well-known cybersecurity companies.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna throw out some names here.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: So Symantec, Tripwire, Vontu, which was the original DLP company before it was acquired by Symantec, PGP, Simplified, Norse, CyFort, Noistar, and then right now you're at Sunray Security.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: So there's a rich history right there.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of interested though.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: So you you ended up uh at Semantic for a while, and then you left that big beast that was semantic and went to a much smaller company at the time, which was Tripwire.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: What was it about going to that smaller company that attracted you?
4:57
SPEAKER_01: What did you learn?
4:59
SPEAKER_00: Hmm, let's see.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: So, what attracted me?
5:02
SPEAKER_00: You know, I was at a point in a career for, you know, both career reasons and sort of personal reasons.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: I had just had a actually a death in the family occur, which caused me to sort of go internal and say, you know, what do I want from the rest of my life?
5:17
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, all of those deep questions.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: What do I want my legacy to be and all that?
5:21
SPEAKER_00: And I decided that I really wanted to be on my own, that I didn't want to be under the shelter of a large company anymore, that I wanted to test all of the things that I had learned at, and Symantec was a great learning place for training and learning.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: And it was my first management job.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: All of those things were amazing.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: Now I wanted to kind of just invest in me and see how I could do that at a at a smaller company.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: Tripwire was that for me.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: I was the first VPS sales there when believe it or not, they were half a million dollars.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: Um so that was very early.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: And your second question, I think, was what did I learn?
6:00
SPEAKER_00: I mean, so many things that you learn when you make that, you know, when you push yourself out of your comfort zone into a new environment like that.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: But I think the one, probably the one that surprised me the most is, you know, one of the things you do when you go to the next gig is you bring along those people that you trust, that you've worked with, that you believe in, that you know have been successful at your previous gig.
6:23
SPEAKER_00: And that my learning was at Tripwire that not all of those skill sets go from big company to small company.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: So motivation might be there, but the needs of a small company in a startup are totally different than what you have at a large company.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: So that was my first, you know, the beginning of it's not just about those people that you trust, but you have to really look deep into skills, experiences, personality traits, and do they match what your mission is, what you're trying to do at your new company?
6:56
SPEAKER_00: That that was a big one for me.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: That's interesting because I think one of the things that CROs get judged on by people is who do they bring, right?
7:04
SPEAKER_01: And how many do they bring?
7:06
SPEAKER_01: And what you're saying is, well, you've got to be a bit more thoughtful about it than just that.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: And you know, if someone only brings two or three people, that might not be a bad thing then.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: Is that am I reading that right?
7:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's my my philosophy on it.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: Now, certainly people that have been successful in one role, it doesn't mean that they can't be successful in a different company, but they need to have the right motivation, the right coachability, the right desire to do something different in order to kind of go along and not just do the same things.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: So uh, you know, I'm I'm very lucky in that I have a lot of people who have followed me from role to roll.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: And um, sometimes they're a fit for that particular place I'm going to.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: And if they're not going to be, we just have that conversation.
7:47
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: I was talking to uh a CRO recently, startup with a lot of buzz around it right now, and every single one of the people they've brought in in the sales org, not just the CRO, but the whole go-to-market org, don't really have any startup ex startup experience.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of interesting to see how that plays out.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: And these are quality, quality people.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it'll be interesting to see how they adapt from you know a much bigger world where there's more going, there's more there for you into a world where most of them joined in in stealth.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: So it's very quiet in that world, and you have to do a lot of things on your own uh to get going.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that absolutely that would be that would be a big challenge for sure.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't mean you can't train to it, right?
8:29
SPEAKER_00: As you know.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, you're right.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: You're right.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: The other, you know, so after Tripwire, you went to Vontu, and I'll I'm gonna play something back to you, and you can agree or disagree.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: So one of the things about the DLP market, certainly back then, well, whether it was Vontu or I was at McAfee and we acquired a company and they had their process, which I think was very similar to Vontu's, but it's very rigorous, right?
8:54
SPEAKER_01: They had this you have to have certain things in place, or we just simply won't do the POC.
9:00
SPEAKER_01: And if we don't have the meeting lined up at the end with the CEO and the chief legal officer and the head of HR for the readup for the POC, we're just simply not going to do it.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: And they were so rigorous about it.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: And I'm wondering if A, you know, my my perception about UNTU was like that, and B, if that was different and perhaps has influenced some of your future roles in sales.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: Oh, what a great question, Andrew.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: You know, that was so after Tripwire, right?
9:27
SPEAKER_00: I'd been at Tripwire for a few years, went over to Vuntube, very beginning of the DLP space, as as you noted.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: And there were a couple of things going on.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: First of all, we're at the very beginning of even helping people understand that this was a thing that they needed.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: So the elements of what needed to be true in an opportunity were pretty clear.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: And without that, it it wouldn't go anywhere.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: But I will tell you, and if the CEO Joseph Ansonelli ever listens to this, he will agree with this.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: I rebelled against that in the beginning.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: I was in the like, hang on, why do we have to do all this?
10:03
SPEAKER_00: Salesforce doesn't need that.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: Salespeople are not great at doing notes and updating this and updating that.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: And I did a fair amount of pushback.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: And only when I got maybe a couple of startups later than that, I went back and thought, you know what?
10:18
SPEAKER_00: He's so right.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: It is exactly the thing that is needed to be able to, especially to mold a new market and to really get a fully instilled sales process.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: Like everyone knew the forecast ran this way, notes had to look like this.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: You don't, like you said, right?
10:37
SPEAKER_00: You don't do an opportunity unless you have the executive buyer involved.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: The um we we had a very stringent methodology about what we did the night before we got a POC going, then afterwards.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: And a few years ago, I deployed the exact same thing, and it's exactly what I'm doing at Sunray.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: So I have uh I have gotten over myself and uh realized that it is definitely the way of the world.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: And for those that weren't around in those days or weren't didn't experience the DLP kind of sales process, can you give people a quick flavor of maybe some of the things that were part of the process that might not be normal right now?
11:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I don't know if I would say they weren't normal, but they were early, right, in terms of understanding that.
11:17
SPEAKER_00: And and if you're into, you know, medic or medPIC, a lot of the concepts are very much in that mode, right?
11:24
SPEAKER_00: So you know the metrics up front.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: We have a there was a very formal qualification process, a very formal kickoff to the POC that involved socializing actually with the executives to make sure that there was going to be buy-in.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: And then a very, very formal wrap-up process as well that included a like, hey, we're going to make sure that we're asking you for this.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: So they knew how much that it was going to cost ahead of time.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: We had it all laid out.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: It again, very, very early in a in a medic sort of a scenario.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: Like metrics, executive, decision makers, the whole process was done before you even got to that to that proof of concept.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: And I remember um just to add on to that, was because the implications of what was found in a DLP POC, it really was valuable to have people from outside IT there who would care.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: So getting into like HR and legal and things like that, because they need to be aware that the POC might throw up something that they they may or may not want to know about it.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: But then if they're gonna have this tool that has implications in those areas.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't okay just for the IT leader to say, yeah, we're good.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we actually wanted some of these other people in the room as well.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, we did.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, to your point, I was early days, right, in the DLP world, and there were a lot of those kinds of people that did not want to know.
12:48
SPEAKER_00: Because if they knew, they had to do something about it and they weren't prepared operationally to do something about that.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: So we needed to know that up front, if this was going to be the blocker as a component of this operation, right?
12:58
SPEAKER_00: Of this whole thing.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: And there would be definitely people who would shut it down and say, yeah, we don't, if we know that, we have to do something and uh we're not ready to do something.
13:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, it was just an interesting technology to Sal.
13:09
SPEAKER_01: It kind of for me in my journey, it was the first time that it had that much wider implications than just managing risk and you know, security operations.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you almost had to slow down to speed up and close more by putting that rigor into the sales process early.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: And as you say, you know, looking back, a lot of it was good hygiene.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: It might have been a bit painful for some salespeople, including myself, to have to deal with, but it was worth it in the end.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of the things that we call good selling today actually probably wasn't that different to what we were trying to do with DLP.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: And uh one point on that too, that I think is important that you just raised, right?
13:47
SPEAKER_00: The HR professional, the head of legal being involved in that.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: We so often get, I you know, kind of pigeonholed or get down one stream, right, with in the security market, thinking the CISO is the buyer.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: The the company I'm at right now, definitely we have a wider persona and we're, you know, we're still uncovering that.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a it was a good early lesson to remember that it's not just security that gets involved either from an influence perspective or really has an implication involved in what you're selling.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: That was that was a good one for me to understand.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: Uh going back to your LinkedIn, so to fast forward or forward-wind through a few roles, you've been the you know, head of worldwide sales, VP of worldwide sales at a bunch of companies.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: I would characterize them and tell me if you disagree that you came in not as the first sales team to come in with you know zero or a million ARR, but you were the person that came in to build a team for scale, either you know, five, 10, 15 million plus, right?
14:48
SPEAKER_01: And suddenly when you're coming into to Sunray right now, it seems like you know they're already established a little bit, and now your job is to take them a bit further.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about that.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: Because I think it's a really interesting stage to come in.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: You're you're not trying to get the first 10 customers, but you're trying to get you know from 10 to 50 or 20 to 100, depending on which march you're on.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: What do you usually see when you go in and you you start doing your thing?
15:10
SPEAKER_01: What what sort of state is the sales org in?
15:13
SPEAKER_01: Is it vastly different from company to company or are there some common things that you you see again and again?
15:18
SPEAKER_00: I'd say from a theme perspective, the one that is most obvious and I don't think will be a surprise to any seasoned CRO listening in is that the basics aren't actually being followed, right?
15:34
SPEAKER_00: The fundamentals of, hey, this is this is the right person for us to talk to in an account.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: This is what a discovery call looks like, here's what our set qualification is, here's our ICP, you know, all of those things that are that are the basics.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: I am maniacal about the basics.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: And almost always there's something in that process that isn't working.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: Almost always.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: And it's it's the same everywhere.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: And it's not for people's lack of trying.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: They they sometimes believe before I get there, right, that sales is more about who do you know and who can you network with and what events can you go to, as opposed to the process that has to happen to make sure that you're actually speaking to the right people.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: That that whole upfront process is a theme that I have seen at every single company.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's tough, right?
16:27
SPEAKER_01: Because they've they've come in and they're they're trying to build all this as they're trying to sell and get new customers, right?
16:31
SPEAKER_01: So they're learning along the way.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: And the focus is to keep marching forward, even if uh they're leaving a few things behind.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: And I imagine that's the reality.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: It's not that people don't know they should be doing that.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: It's just that things get left behind a little bit as they're marching forward.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: That's an excellent point, right?
16:47
SPEAKER_00: There's pressure to bring in numbers all the time.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: So it's the it's always the balance of, hey, am I going to spend time on that thing that I think is going to bring that customer across, or am I going to spend time on redoing who our ideal customer profile is, right?
17:00
SPEAKER_00: You're always making those choices in that stage of startup.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: So talking about those fundamentals then, you know, the discovery prospecting, I would imagine, is one of them.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: Any tips for other CROs that are coming in at that stage about how you've evaluated, how you figured out exactly where the gaps are and then what you've done about it?
17:19
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, I I would say that I have in every company write a sort of a playbook, if you will, about how you figure it out.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: And there's some books that talk about it, but I one day I'll write an article about this.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: But you know, the the top thing I think is making sure you have an open mind because whatever you heard in the interview process may or may not be true when you get in, right?
17:42
SPEAKER_00: And not for any reason other than you're getting one set of uh eyes on it, right?
17:47
SPEAKER_00: And getting in and deeper helps you really understand what's actually going on.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: And recognizing, too, that it's not always only about sales.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: There are usually other functions around sales that, you know, might need some boosting up as well.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: But key mission that I have always been brought in for is bring revenue up.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean, you know, make sure that, you know, this other thing is happening on the marketing side or that, you know, we're going to the right events.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: Like at the end of the day, what you're being brought in for, just remember that that's what that mission is and focus on that.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then what I typically do is I go on a listening tour, right?
18:23
SPEAKER_00: I talk to multiple people across the company, I gather feedback, I look for themes, I ask deep questions.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: Almost always, I mean, never fails.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: You speak with the salespeople and seed, and it's always someone else's fault, right?
18:37
SPEAKER_00: It's I didn't get enough leads or the I don't like the website or marketing this.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: So it's also my opportunity to reinforce what I believe in around, hey, let's talk about your role.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: Your role is creating new pipeline, your role is getting us into proof of values or proof of concepts, your role is closing deals.
18:56
SPEAKER_00: What's what's holding you back from those things?
18:58
SPEAKER_00: Never mind all that other stuff.
19:00
SPEAKER_00: You can't control that.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: What you can control is how you spend your time in a day.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: So I use that listening tour to help reinforce that with the team as well.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: And then I always create a SWAT, right?
19:10
SPEAKER_00: Strength, weaknesses, opportunities, threats, and sync up with executive leadership about that that I am seeing the things correctly that we need to focus on.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: So those are, you know, those are sort of cross-functional kinds of things.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: And then keeping going, right?
19:27
SPEAKER_00: I in evaluating the team themselves.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: Years ago, I learned from a Sandler trainer about uh, you know, just how important it is to evaluate the seats on the bus and not like, do you like them, not like them, can they do this piece, but what is the mission that you are at right then?
19:44
SPEAKER_00: And what are the things that you need every single person on your team to be doing?
19:49
SPEAKER_00: And I there's a triangle, everybody laughs at me.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: I always put my hands up.
19:52
SPEAKER_00: There's a triangle at the top of the triangle, is attitude, right?
19:56
SPEAKER_00: To me, you can't fix attitude, right?
19:59
SPEAKER_00: Either somebody has the right attitude or they don't.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: They believe in the company, they believe in their market, they believe in those things.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: They may not have figured that out yet, whether they do or they don't, but you can evaluate that pretty quickly.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: And then from there, the two other bottom triangle spots are behavior and skills.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: So behavior is are they doing the things that they need to be doing to make themselves successful?
20:20
SPEAKER_00: So that for me is activities.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: Hello, prospecting, working with partners, uh, making sure your SDR is is working alongside you, having a good relationship with your SC, that kind of thing.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: And then the other uh corner of the triangle is skills, right?
20:36
SPEAKER_00: Can you do can you tell a good story about an existing customer?
20:40
SPEAKER_00: Do you know how to set the stage for, you know, I'm a medic believer.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: Do you know how to set the stage to get to the executive buyer?
20:47
SPEAKER_00: Do you know how to tell if that person is a champion or not?
20:49
SPEAKER_00: Can you close?
20:51
SPEAKER_00: Do you regularly close, right?
20:53
SPEAKER_00: So skills.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: So then I so that's what I do is I take a look at those three things, and then probably won't be a surprise to anyone.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: I grade, right?
21:01
SPEAKER_00: I figure out where is where is the team on that and and which people want to get better, and which people maybe do we need to have a different kind of conversation with.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: And just on that triangle, Denise, and uh it's a full philosophical question.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: Do behaviors come before attitude, or does the attitude come before behaviors?
21:20
SPEAKER_00: I think attitude comes first.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: Okay, tell me more.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: The attitude drives everything.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: Because you can teach someone how to do it, but if they show up on a discovery call and they have a bad attitude, there's absolutely no way that they will be selling your solution or your company to whoever's on the other end.
21:36
unknown: Yeah.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't happen.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: Well, I like about that the Sendler Triangle.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: It goes at uh a level below the the will and skill discussion that usually people talk about, right?
21:44
SPEAKER_01: They have will and skill quadrants and they try to put people in those.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: I think it's more useful and it's a much more interesting way to look at evaluating what you have in front of you, right?
21:54
SPEAKER_00: I like it.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: It has worked for me.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: Activity is another area that I think is always interesting.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: I I forget who it is, but they says, you know, the the biggest problem with with prospecting is people don't do it.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: I totally agree with that.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: So what do you see, what do you see most often then?
22:13
SPEAKER_01: Is it just that or is there something else that uh they they there's reasons why they're not doing it?
22:18
SPEAKER_00: Um I I do think that it isn't I'm I'm a big the other thing that I say all the time is you know, where focus goes, energy flows, right?
22:26
SPEAKER_00: So if you're focused on the right things to accomplish in a week, guess what?
22:30
SPEAKER_00: Your energy will match that, right?
22:32
SPEAKER_00: However, you spend your time will match that.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: So if if you know for sure that at the end of this week, I need to have booked, you know, four new discovery meetings, or I need to have been in touch with three new channel partners or or other kind of tech partner, then you'll make the time to do it.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: So generally I have conversations with people about okay, tell me about your prospecting time.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: How often do you block it out?
22:55
SPEAKER_00: What do you do during that time?
22:56
SPEAKER_00: How do you prep for it?
22:57
SPEAKER_00: So we get into the how, not the why, right?
23:01
SPEAKER_00: To to help them get through that.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: And it is always, always, always a priority scenario.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you have to do implications.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's let's look at this.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: Right now, you're getting this many on a regular basis from your SDR or from you know whatever source is coming through the door.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: Let's say that dried up.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: What would how long would it take you to figure out that that's dried up and what would you do about that?
23:24
SPEAKER_00: And the the whole basic here is to make sure that they are responsible for their business.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: Everything else is bonus.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: If they have an SDR, that's bonus.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: If they get leads from a marketing event, that's bonus.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: You have to build your business on what you can control and what you can create yourself.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: So I run I run sessions on prospecting.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: We have group discussions on, hey, what's working, what's not.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: Let's do messaging.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: Let's make sure that the mode that we're using.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: I just brought a JB sales in to do some training with us at the beginning of the year.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: And their big thing is video.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: So making sure that you're using video, and it's amazing how many more meetings we've gotten just using video, just changing it up, right?
24:07
SPEAKER_00: But I think a lot of it to go to the core of your question, there's a focus and time thing, and then there's a comfort thing, right?
24:14
SPEAKER_00: There is a, if you're a field sales rep, do you really know how to prospect?
24:19
SPEAKER_00: Have you practiced this?
24:20
SPEAKER_00: Is this a skill that you have?
24:22
SPEAKER_00: So I like doing the kind of the readiness piece of it.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: So we practice, we role play, we teach, we we make that a core function that a person needs to be able to talk about whatever company we're at, San Ray in this case, right, for 20 seconds and get a message across.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: So you have to do that.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: So once they're comfortable and it becomes muscle memory, they are less afraid of it.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: I think it's so important these days when it is hard to rise above the noise out there that yeah, you don't got to do it by chance, right?
24:54
SPEAKER_01: You you really got to be good at what you do, but also maybe to the video example, right?
25:00
SPEAKER_01: Try new things to try and be a little bit different and go that extra mile because in the extra mile it's not quite so crowded, right?
25:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: So that was more in inside the sales team.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: What do you see when you usually come in with the regards to the relationship with marketing and what's going on there?
25:18
SPEAKER_01: Do you commonly see it as broken as we hear about it?
25:21
SPEAKER_01: Or have you seen some that are pretty good, or have you found out ways to really, you know, have that bridge that works really well between the two functions?
25:29
SPEAKER_00: What I often find is not so much about what the relationship is, but more about where communication is broken, right, between organizations.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: And that could be engineering, product marketing, product management, marketing overall.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: So the the first thing that I do is step up the communication vehicle and just have regular conversation.
25:53
SPEAKER_00: And I I agree, right?
25:54
SPEAKER_00: It it is uh it's not perfect out there between marketing and sales.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: And in many organizations, I've had marketing under me as well.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: So I'm sort of shooting myself in the foot when I say that.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: But uh, but I I often find it is about aligning and making sure that you all know what it is you're trying to accomplish, right?
26:13
SPEAKER_00: And then setting up those regular cadences with your partners in crime, right?
26:19
SPEAKER_00: Could be the CFO, could be the CMO, could be anybody across the organization.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: So just having that alignment so that you're on the same page on a regular basis.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: And this isn't about the, well, I didn't like when you blah blah snow, hang on, like let's start at the top.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: It's just like a sales call, right?
26:34
SPEAKER_00: You start at the top.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: What is it we're trying to accomplish?
26:37
SPEAKER_00: What is the scenario that we find ourselves in?
26:39
SPEAKER_00: What are we doing next?
26:41
SPEAKER_00: Who's doing it?
26:42
SPEAKER_00: Who's doing what?
26:42
SPEAKER_00: And the next meeting you have with them, you check in with that, right?
26:45
SPEAKER_00: It's not rocket science, it's basics.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: One of the things that uh comes up again and again is the idea that there's this misaligned goals between the two departments.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: You know, sales is obviously, you know, revenue, ARR, and the things that lead to that.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: And then marketing might be more focused on MQLs and quite how and what those MQLs are doesn't necessarily translate into revenue.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: Is that what you've seen or are you seen other things?
27:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, I have for sure seen that.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: And it and it comes into play when the SDRs are only paid on getting that meeting.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: They don't care then about the quality.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: They don't care about the what happens to it next, right?
27:26
SPEAKER_00: Did it move to a demo?
27:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm lucky enough that when I got here to Sunray, the person, my counterpart on the marketing side, has a comp plan that goes through the cycle of the sales cycle so that the SDRs are responsible for not only getting that first meeting, they get that meeting gets graded by the sales rep and they only get paid on it if it's a certain grade.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: And then it moves forward into demo, and then they get another portion of their pay when it moves into a demo.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: So I love that as a model.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, I haven't always seen that.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: And and you usually end up having to, I find myself back before COVID, you know, sitting in a room with a whiteboard saying, okay, let's just map this out.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: What is it that we both need from this process?
28:07
SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, consulting and getting agreement on it, right?
28:11
SPEAKER_00: To make sure that you're both doing the same thing.
28:13
SPEAKER_01: So much of it can be solved with good communication, it seems, right?
28:17
SPEAKER_00: It it always is.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: Especially I find in startups, people want to be successful.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: Like hardly anyone have I ever run into in a startup that doesn't want to be successful.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: Now, sometimes in larger companies, you run into that, like, oh, uh, you know, I did that before, I'm not doing that again, right?
28:32
SPEAKER_00: You get into that sort of stuff.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: In startups, that if you start it with everyone has the same intention and you might just be approaching it differently.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: And then you can find that common ground as long as you have that attitude going in.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: And do you prefer to have SDRs in marketing or under sales?
28:49
SPEAKER_00: Oh boy, this is a this is an interesting topic.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: I I currently the situation I'm in currently is that the SDRs are part of the marketing department.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: And I think here here's where I draw the line.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: I prefer them in in startups, especially as under sales because I think their role is primarily an outbound role.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of this has to do with what is going on at your company, right?
29:14
SPEAKER_00: Is there is there a lot of lead flow and they need to be qualified?
29:18
SPEAKER_00: Are you doing a lot of events?
29:19
SPEAKER_00: Is there uh you know a PLG motion in place where somebody needs to grab those?
29:23
SPEAKER_00: That's totally different than we are in a scaling, trying to set up new opportunities, kind of a role.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: And in that case, they get the most, I believe, out of being part of the sales org.
29:35
SPEAKER_00: Now, whether they report to me or not, I always include them in all of my stuff.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: So when we do trainings, when we do updates, when I do all hands, the SDRs are all there anyways.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: So I sort of just expect them to be a part of my group and we include them in all of those scenarios.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I see that a lot actually.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: Wherever they end up, they're always included.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: It's just, you know, where they report into and maybe some nuances around the dynamics of that uh play out sometimes, I guess.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and I find myself regularly um negotiating their comp plan because I need their comp plan to match with what we need in sales.
30:10
SPEAKER_00: That's that to me is where the rubber meets the road with the SDRs.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: Not so much about where they report, but what does their comp plan look like.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: Tell me more about that then.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: Well, a lot of it has to do with what I was talking about before.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: If they are only compensated on getting a new meeting and they don't care what the outcome is, or they don't care that it actually was quality, then we're gonna be missing all day long and I'm gonna be in their ear constantly.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: But when it's set up like it is where I am now, that they are expected to do quality ones, high-level ones.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: Actually, going back to Vantu, one of the things we did at Ubuntu is we had extra money if you got a C Sale on the line, right?
30:49
SPEAKER_00: I love that kind of stuff.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: What is it you're trying to accomplish?
30:53
SPEAKER_00: And what are you doing in terms of the comp plan to make sure that that happens?
30:57
SPEAKER_00: So continuing it through the through the cycle is I think really, really important from an SDR perspective.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: Because then they then they focus on quality.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: I like that concept, right?
31:05
SPEAKER_01: Not all prospects are created equal.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: Some are really hard to get.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: And wouldn't it be good if you were comp a little bit differently on the CISO versus the the manager and maybe the type of company as well, right?
31:15
SPEAKER_01: As close as possible to the bullseye of the ICP, you get paid more, and then for incentives are aligned.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: At uh at Expel, my last company, we did a tiered approach to on that.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: So we had a tier one account and a tier two account.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: A tier three account, they only got paid on when it actually moved into a demo.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: Other than that, they were highly motivated to get a tier one and a tier two when we matched those to our ICP.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: That's such a great approach.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: Let's switch over to channel, to partners.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: One of the phrases that I've used and believed, and I don't know if it's still true, is that you know, channel partners don't make your market for you.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: They're not the ones that are going to be the blaze in the trail and you know, getting your your first 20, 50 customers.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: Do you agree with that or or not?
32:02
SPEAKER_00: Well, I would say there are exceptions to every rule, right?
32:05
SPEAKER_00: As there always are, but as a whole, I do agree with that.
32:09
SPEAKER_00: That they they are they tend to jump in when they're starting to understand about a market, right?
32:16
SPEAKER_00: Where they're starting to have customers ask them about it or projects come up that they want to participate in, as opposed to them putting, you know, extra effort or extra money into helping you create your market.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: I find that is very rare, with one exception.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: And that exception, I will say, is when there is a large services organization.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: Because I find that the services organizations at those channel partners tend to be ahead of the game with what it is that customers are asking for.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: And typically they are in doing some sort of service around change or around a transformation or around something new that the organization is trying to achieve.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: So they tend to see it first before the actual channel organization.
33:00
SPEAKER_00: So I really like channel teams that have a have a heavy services organization as a component of that.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're the coalface, right?
33:06
SPEAKER_01: So they they get the chance to listen a bit differently than if you're the channel rep, right?
33:12
SPEAKER_01: Have you seen any variations just except for that?
33:15
SPEAKER_01: Is it company by company or partner by partner, or is it that rep at that company just seems to get it, and that rep at that company seems to get it?
33:22
SPEAKER_01: Any observations about that?
33:25
SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm not sure I have a theme yet for my current company.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: At Expel, it was comp there were some company missions that matched us, and therefore the reps all came on board.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: So far, what I've seen at Sunray is it's a little bit more about a person and a relationship that they might have with one of my sales reps or my channel leader, right?
33:47
SPEAKER_00: To make sure that that all comes together.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: They're willing to go a little bit extra to learn about it, and then when they do, it sinks in.
33:53
SPEAKER_00: So in this case, I think it's a little bit more about the person.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: In my last company, it was a little bit more about the mission.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: Tell us about Sunray.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: What do we what does Sunray do?
34:03
SPEAKER_01: At what stage are you at?
34:04
SPEAKER_01: And what are you trying to achieve there?
34:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
34:08
SPEAKER_00: Love to talk about Sunray.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for asking.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: So, so we are helping those companies that are making that transformation into cloud and creating a cloud security platform for them that enables them to have some people would say the same guardrails and the same security that they would have on-prem.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: And I would say because of the cloud, they can have much better than they have ever had before.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: So what we find is that many companies exploded into the cloud way ahead of when they actually thought about putting in those security guardrails.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: So we come in and we provide that platform for that, you might call it a single pane of glass or whatever you want to call it, that uh that allows them to see all of their risks across the cloud.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: And that's a very active space, let's call it right now.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: It's frothy, yes.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: Looking at uh valuations and rounds and things like that.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: What does that mean for sunrise then?
35:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh in terms of how you think about how you go to market and the investment you put into it.
35:11
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: I would say we we have uh maybe a slightly more traditional approach than like throw the money at it kind of stuff that we're seeing out in the marketplace.
35:21
SPEAKER_00: Because I I don't believe in, you know, putting 10 people in New York right now, right?
35:25
SPEAKER_00: I I don't I don't think that does anybody any good.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: Like there might be some model where that might happen, but in my model, I want my team to make money, right?
35:32
SPEAKER_00: They are here because they know that I believe in that and that they have to do that.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: So our approach is a little bit more in the building it in a rational kind of a way than a crazy way.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: And so the the thing that makes the most difference in that scenario is that we have to be, this gets back to my basics comment, right?
35:51
SPEAKER_00: We have to be maniacal about understanding that that first discovery meeting has to have differentiation in it.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: The reps all need to be able to recite it.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: They need to know customer stories, they need to be able to do that part of the process in a very differentiated way.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: Because that's the like the, you know, a prospect, right?
36:10
SPEAKER_00: They interact with our website, maybe they interact over email or some other way with an SDR.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: Their first time that they're really interacting with the company is that first discovery meeting.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: So we have to be the tip of the spear on ensuring that their experience with my company is going to be totally different.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, totally different, right?
36:28
SPEAKER_00: I I uh uh call the sales done right, right?
36:31
SPEAKER_00: We do uh we show we've we've done research ahead of time, we know who we're talking to, we ask them a whole bunch of questions about what it is they're trying to accomplish.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: And we tell them we may not be able to help you.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: We don't know, right?
36:41
SPEAKER_00: We don't know until we get into a discussion with you.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: So their interaction with our company is part of the differentiation.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: It has to be.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: And our our words have to be different.
36:51
SPEAKER_00: We've got a new website coming out in about a month.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: I can't wait.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: You know, the current one is a little bit too technical for my.
36:56
SPEAKER_00: So it sort of follows along with where everybody else is.
36:59
SPEAKER_00: Definitely switching it up to a much more differentiated business-oriented discussion.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: And that's the key, right?
37:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it it's almost like every time someone sees something about, you know, Sunrite or wherever company it is, they should be absolutely certain in their mind what this company does and how it's different, right?
37:17
SPEAKER_01: And any conf you know, the classic phrase, right?
37:20
SPEAKER_01: You confuse, you lose.
37:21
SPEAKER_01: If there's any confusion about that, then they're probably just gonna discount it and say, well, you know, I don't understand, therefore I don't care.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: Right.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: Well, and or matching your customers to where they are, right?
37:34
SPEAKER_00: So even though like everyone thinks like cloud is here, right?
37:38
SPEAKER_00: And it has been here for a while, um, you know, guess what?
37:42
SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of organizations that other parts of the company are still catching up to that, right?
37:46
SPEAKER_00: It might be compliance, it might be the security team, it might be, you know, the some other organization within.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: And so realizing that the person that you're talking to may or may not be in that same place.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: So you can't just throw the book at them, right?
38:02
SPEAKER_00: You have to really understand where they are and meet them where they are and then go on the journey with them.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: How much has Sunray raised so far?
38:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think 65 is our total right now.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:15
SPEAKER_01: You know, compared to other people in the whole white or cloud security marketplace, that's that's modest, right?
38:20
SPEAKER_01: But I, you know, personally, I I think there's a there's a value to the constraint.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: You know, when you have a whole bunch of money, literally people taking$500 to a billion dollars in a round, suddenly a lot of discipline goes out the window and it's became it becomes a case of throwing money at it.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: And as you say, you end up with 10 reps in New York with a market that might support one, and those another nine reps have to have to fall by the wayside.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: And it becomes a bit of a dogfight trying to figure out how you even state these companies sometimes.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: Um you have to look at why does a why does a salesperson join a company like that, right?
38:56
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's to make money, maybe it's to have an outcome, maybe it's to have a win, and you know, kind of match to that, right?
39:02
SPEAKER_00: I again, like I said before, a lot of people follow me because they know I am really, really, really specific on making sure comp plans are generous and match to what the company's trying to achieve.
39:15
SPEAKER_00: Like I make sure, absolutely, that's one of the major things that I do when I come in is redo the comp plan or make sure that it matches what we need to accomplish.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if I'm a if I'm joining one of these other companies and their valuation right now is four to five billion dollars, what's my upside?
39:31
SPEAKER_01: Right.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: That amount of money is not a guarantee of success.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: And even if some sort of exit happens, it might be a long time in the future because no one's gonna buy you at that sort of level.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: So IPO has to be it.
39:43
SPEAKER_01: Right now, IPO is not very sexy.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh valuation is not very high.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: Kind of pin yourself in a in a hole a little bit.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: I said I actually had a uh chat with Amit Carp, who's a Bessemer partner, and we were talking about this.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: And I told him that I saw last week one of the other companies in the cloud security space had a job posted last week for a swag manager.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: Um swag manager, seriously?
40:07
SPEAKER_01: They had so much money to make hats and t-shirts, they needed someone to manage giving a swag as a full-time job.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: It just I don't know what the right sign is for exuberance, irrational exuberance in a market, but that might be one data point to consider.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: That might be one for sure.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: And and my question is always how what percentage of your team is making quota, right?
40:32
SPEAKER_00: And and how are you ensuring that that is still going to stay the same in this next phase of growth?
40:38
SPEAKER_00: Like how are you taking care of your team in it?
40:40
SPEAKER_00: Because they're they're not there.
40:41
SPEAKER_00: I mean, when you're at that size of company, sure, an IPO might be this dream, but they're there to make money in that year, right?
40:48
SPEAKER_00: They're they're there because they're not expecting to get a great exit necessarily.
40:52
SPEAKER_00: They're there because the comp plan has to match their need.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's such an interesting area when you see that happening about how it's all going to play out.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: And in terms of uh at Sunray right now, Denise, are you hiring?
41:03
SPEAKER_01: Do you want people to reach out to you if they're interested?
41:05
SPEAKER_00: We are hiring.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
41:07
SPEAKER_00: Uh I would love to, especially people that have security experience, although I'm I'm not I'm not stuck on security experience.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: But if you have enterprise and experience and you are a modern seller, I definitely would love to have this conversation with you.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: And not just sales, right?
41:23
SPEAKER_00: We're hiring in customer success.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm hiring in product management, we're hiring in marketing, I'm hiring in SDRs, we're hiring in SEs, we're hiring everywhere right now.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: All over the shop.
41:33
SPEAKER_01: And how do people get how do people get hold of you?
41:36
SPEAKER_00: My email is probably the best.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: So it's denise.hayman at sunrise security.com.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: And on LinkedIn, are you are you active on there?
41:45
SPEAKER_00: I am very active on LinkedIn, yes.
41:48
SPEAKER_01: All right.
41:48
SPEAKER_01: So let's wrap up with uh a couple of questions for you.
41:51
SPEAKER_01: This is interesting.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: So uh there's there's no better way to find out about the real you than by using one of these bullshit LinkedIn polls out there, Denise.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: Um there's so many to choose from.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh here here's two for you.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: First question, this was uh Ronan Campbell.
42:07
SPEAKER_01: Can you teach, coach, or train someone to be empathetic?
42:12
SPEAKER_01: A was yes, B, no, and and C other.
42:16
SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
42:17
SPEAKER_00: To be empathetic.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: Can you teach them to be empathetic?
42:23
SPEAKER_00: I I think that there is a definition of empathetic that means that it has to be authentic.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: So I would say no, it cannot be taught.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: It is either a thing that you are or you're not.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: There you go.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: So the the the results came back.
42:37
SPEAKER_01: 45 said yes, and 51% said no.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: So you're either you're either there or you're not.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: I I feel like it must be something you can get better at, but you know, if you're just naturally like that, you must be well ahead of those that struggle with empathy who are I think you can be enlightened to empathy, but I'm not sure it can be taught.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: And that's maybe where I draw the line.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: Like if somebody might have an experience where all of a sudden they realize that they need to change themselves or change their approach, or you know, they they don't make it in one job and it's because they couldn't connect with customers or something and they really put an effort in, that isn't someone else teaching them, that's coming from within.
43:17
SPEAKER_01: Right.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: It's more realization, right?
43:20
SPEAKER_01: That uh there's gonna be a different way.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: The second one, I don't know if this is really a question for you, but I insight for the first time from a LinkedIn poll.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: Person that posted was the Cyber Risk Leaders Book.
43:31
SPEAKER_01: So I think this is going to, you know, security people.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: What's your preferred approach of being pitched a security solution?
43:38
SPEAKER_01: Well, let me ask you, which one do you think was top, right?
43:41
SPEAKER_01: So A was cold call, B was email with all the brochures, C was demo, and D was one-to-one fact-finding meeting.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: God, if the people that we sell to, I don't think any of those apply.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, I'm a I'm a believer that uh on the se in the security world, anyways, that the word of mouth is the most important, right?
44:04
SPEAKER_00: Hearing another customer story, knowing someone else that's using your solution, that kind of thing.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: Um but outside of that, it's being brought in by uh, you know, by a trusted reference.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: I think.
44:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think how did it how did the poll end?
44:19
SPEAKER_01: I think you're I think you're right.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: It it it confuses a few things here though, right?
44:22
SPEAKER_01: Because you know, co-call might lead to a one-to-one fact-finding meeting.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh well, what they said was D, one-to-one fact-finding meeting at 46%.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh, demo was 34%, and then uh email co-call was six percent.
44:38
SPEAKER_01: No great surprise there.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh the demo is high.
44:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I guess people like to be, you know, show don't tell is is the phrase that people like, right?
44:46
SPEAKER_01: Just show me what you do rather than tell me.
44:48
SPEAKER_01: But sitting down to have a proper meeting, I guess people seem to like that.
44:52
SPEAKER_01: Once you get there, I guess it's missing out the steps before there.
44:55
SPEAKER_01: Those don't just happen easily, right?
44:59
SPEAKER_01: What sales question or saying have you heard now or in the past that you just can't stand, that you want to cast into the far reaches of space never to hear again?
45:13
SPEAKER_00: I I would say I have a list.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's the age old, I hate it when I hear one of my reps or I listen to a gong and I hear them say, you know, tell me what your priorities are.
45:26
SPEAKER_00: Like, are we talking life?
45:28
SPEAKER_00: We're talking this week, like, what are we talking?
45:30
SPEAKER_00: But all right, but I think probably everyone answers it that way.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: I I can't tell you how many messages I get of somebody trying to sell me something, where I get the Denise, I see you're the CRO of Sunray Security as such.
45:45
SPEAKER_00: I think I'm like, just do a little work.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: Like just a little bit more work than that.
45:50
SPEAKER_00: Like, no kidding that that's my job title.
45:54
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think I got that part.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: You don't need to remind me.
45:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, go back to I I mean, everyone has stuff that they post on.
46:00
SPEAKER_00: Hey, I saw that post on blah, blah, blah.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: Refer to that.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, the other one in this sort of stuff, I hate the just checking in.
46:07
SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
46:08
SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
46:10
SPEAKER_00: It means nothing.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: It means nothing.
46:12
SPEAKER_00: What I how do you even answer that?
46:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: So you should you should do a whole session with CROs about this, Andrew.
46:20
SPEAKER_00: I think we would have a lot to say.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: I yeah, I know.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: I I I sense I sense a lot of I have empathy for uh the pain.
46:27
SPEAKER_00: See, that was authentic.
46:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very authentic.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, I I think in you know, if I go back in my career, I certainly at some point in my career I probably did a lot of checking in and touching base.
46:37
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then you realize how stupid it is and you don't do it again.
46:40
SPEAKER_01: But uh, you know, everyone's on their journey through sales and doing things in different ways, right?
46:46
SPEAKER_01: Well, Denise, look, I've really enjoyed the conversation today.
46:49
SPEAKER_01: Any final thoughts for the audience before we sign off?
46:52
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, I think we talked a lot about a lot of different things.
46:55
SPEAKER_00: I think there's a key theme here on making sure you know what the mission is, keeping communication open and focusing on the basics, right?
47:03
SPEAKER_00: That those are my three things that I always focus on.
47:06
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, just making sure that you're staying true to what makes sense.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: You know, not getting stuck with what a VC might say or a board and or an investor might say, but you know best what it's going to take to build your business.
47:19
SPEAKER_00: So that's what I believe in.
47:20
SPEAKER_01: That's great.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: Well, Denise, thanks so much for joining us today, and good luck for 2022.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.