Latest / The ROAR Podcast / The ROAR Podcast:Jordan Goldstein, Gensler
Transcript
- Brice Clinton: The sports venue in the future isn't just a building, it's a neighborhood. And few people understand that better than today's guest. Jordan Goldstein is the co-CEO of Gensler, one of the largest and most influential architecture and design firms in the world. With over 6,500 people across 56 offices. and work spanning 110 countries. Gensler has spent the last 17 years reshaping how we think about sports, not just the arenas and stadiums themselves, but the entire world around them. In this conversation, Caroline sits down with Jordan to explore some of the most ambitious projects in sports and real estate today. From the transformation of Capital One Arena in Washington, DC, to the Rams Village mixed-use development in Los Angeles, and makes the case for why the future of fan experience starts long before you walk through the doors. They get into how AI and data are changing the way these districts are designed, why sustainability and innovation don't have to be in conflict, and what it means to create spaces that serve communities 365 days a year, not just on game day. Jordan also reflects on what 30 years at Ginsler have taught him about their leadership and why he believes the best projects, just like the best teams, are built on collaboration. This is also a special episode for us. Is Caroline's first as a host of the Roar Podcast, and she could not have picked a better guest to kick things off. I'm Bryce Clinton, and this is the Roar Podcast. Caroline Valvardi: Welcome to the Roar Podcast. I'm Caroline Balvardi, your host, and with me today is Jordan Goldstein, co-CEO of Gensler. Welcome to the podcast. Jordan Goldstein: Yeah, thanks for having me here. It's great to be with you. Caroline Valvardi: Yes, it feels very fitting. think you were one of the first people I met officially externally outside the search team when I first started at search. So it feels very fitting for you to be my first official guest for the podcast as I am a new host. So thank you for being the guinea pig. Jordan Goldstein: It's a full circle moment. Love it. Caroline Valvardi: Yes, yes. All right, so let's jump in. ⁓ I would love to hear you talk a little bit about Gensler for those who may not be familiar, kind of some of the background and the relevance to the sports space. Some folks have may, I'm sure have heard of you guys are everywhere, ⁓ it just kind of ⁓ laying the groundwork of what Gensler does and the kind of connection in the sports space would be great. ⁓ Jordan Goldstein: I'm going to go back 30 years ago before giving you the answer to the question. I started at Gensler straight out of grad school, literally my first job. And I came in as an intern and has had a chance to really experience this phenomenal growth that we've been on. So we are the most influential and impactful architecture and design firm in the world. have over 6,500 people. in 56 locations around the world. And we practice in about 110 different countries. We like to say that there's millions of people that are experiencing a Gensler space or place somewhere every day. And what makes it really unique is that we've really gotten into all these different practices. We're in 32 different practices. So sports for us actually started 17 years ago, started in L.A. And then it grew into DC, grew to Austin, and then Kansas City, and now London and Costa Rica. And these are kind of epicenters of our practice. But what's great about it is we're doing collegiate and pro and venues, and and entertainment mixed use districts all over the world. Caroline Valvardi: Amazing. And one of the things that when I was first learning about Gensler, this is probably a little off topic, but I think also really important and interesting is just that Gensler is also an employee owned firm, which I just just side note, I think is really kind of interesting and unique. And you can tell, I mean, from all the Gensler folks that I have met, just, you know, the type of culture it creates and the investment in the work that you guys do. So anyway, I just want to highlight that. I think it's really something that seems to be. Jordan Goldstein: Well, thanks for noting that. does make a real difference. So everybody Gensler as an employee of ⁓ company, but also an owner of the company. And ⁓ we really look at the people that make up this firm ⁓ all part of the of who we are, which ⁓ a difference when we think about it. So we often talk about, with the work that we're doing, everybody really approaching with a founder's mentality, because everybody is really in the growth and success of the business. Caroline Valvardi: Yeah, very cool. And as talk about, you've talked a bit about the relevance to sports and what Gensler does in your time at Gensler. Can you talk a little bit about how you've seen that evolve, when it comes to the sports and entertainment districts, ⁓ which of know, ⁓ Surge is in that area and ⁓ it's having a moment where Everyone's trying to do the sports entertainment districts and figure out how to do them. And so how, how has that evolved from where you guys kind of started with sports? ⁓ and then today, are you still kind of focused on the same types of things or how, you know, what has the evolution been? I guess around your sports focus and practice. Jordan Goldstein: Yeah, we definitely over the years that our approach to sports is really differentiated. And that's because we're really looking it, you know, from multiple perspectives, you know, certainly, you know, looking at it from the fan experience side of things, looking at it from the athlete experience side of things. But as we've gotten into this, we've really recognized that because we have, you know, so much ⁓ expertise in these areas that may seem tangential, like hospitality retail, or planning, ⁓ or use, that overlay this richness ⁓ for solutions can bring a whole different perspective to it. So we may be involved in a new collegiate experience where recognize that ⁓ You know, it's not just about, you know, a venue surrounded by parking lots, but that that university has an opportunity to think differently about what's built and how it can plug into the campus, but also the community. And all of a sudden there's a, there's a scenario where you have, you know, a little sports and entertainment mixed use district, along with a venue that now, you know, takes that campus experience to a different level on the pro side. You know, you see so many of these stadiums and arenas that really are about the stadiums and arenas themselves, and they haven't really thought about that kind of larger real estate play around them and how you can really create this kind of rich fabric of a mixed use environment that extends the game day experience. know, it's, you people come, you know, now long before the actual start of the game and they could stay afterwards because there's more things to do that they plug into and makes it even more memorable day. Caroline Valvardi: Yeah, I think it's interesting from the comms hat that I wear, how we talk about even the anchor districts now because of the evolution from, ⁓ you just had the stadium or arena, now it's kind of in between was probably more of this fan zone. And now it's it's much larger than that. It's it's a whole entire community neighborhood, mini city. And I think that's kind of important part of the narrative for people to understand, too, that it's. It is this place making, it's where people are actually living in their everyday community. And I think that's an important differentiator from the comm side, particularly as, you when we get into public private partnership, things like that too, and talking to the public about these projects and helping people realize it's not just for the benefit of the team. The idea here is to create real infrastructure and place making and, places that, you know, everybody, even if you don't live in that area, you know, are able to come to and enjoy. So, um, yeah, it's really cool. Jordan Goldstein: Right. And when you look at it, you know, I'll give you a couple of examples like, you know, I'm based here in Washington, D.C. and down the street, we're doing the cap one arena transformation, you know, which is, you know, close to a million square feet. it's a multi-year transformation. But it's not just about, you know, taking an arena and imagining what that fan experience will be in five, 10, 15 years. It's also an arena, you know, plugged into an urban environment. So how does it connect to that community? And in the process of transforming that arena, it also revitalizes a neighborhood around it. So that's one example. Then you go over to say, you know, ⁓ in Los Angeles, where we're doing the Rams village, which is a 52 acre mixed use development anchored by the Rams 350,000 square foot, you know, headquarters and training facility. and an indoor practice facility that also can be utilized for other events as well. So that's like a mixed use program as well as a sports venue. And hopefully it's a catalyst for transforming that San Fernando Valley's kind of urban landscape. So these projects, you know, really should be looked at as a broader recipe to think differently about, you know, the experience and that experience isn't just about sports. It's about what's happening around it. And certainly the other thing we see is increasingly there are these other ingredients that pop in. How do you think differently about live music and entertainment? And does that play into this mixed community as well? And can you start to get a series of venues playing into this in a way that creates this 365, seven days a week kind of experience? Caroline Valvardi: Yeah, and kind of just going off that vein of some of the public benefit side of it too. I know Gensler talks a lot about sustainability and how you think about projects and think that just in the environment we have, I think it's a little bit less in the public discourse nowadays, but it's still so important to how we think about projects. And I don't know you can talk a little bit about your... kind of perspectives and thinking and then how you incorporate that as you're planning out these projects just around, know, sustain particularly, you know, environmental sustainability and how you're building buildings and making them, you know, from extreme weather, all those types of things that are a reality of today. Jordan Goldstein: at Gensler, we're really thinking about opportunities, not to create a new venue or a new, ⁓ you know, facility or entertainment. in sports district, but it's really also about how can the thinking that goes into this create something that is also through the lens of sustainability and resilience. So we look at it ⁓ not just materials by which we build, but also the thinking about systems and infrastructure also the kind of landscape. and you know that plays into this canvas. You know, what are the right moves that create an environment that people want to be in, but at the same time in doing so, it's actually a building that can help better its environment over time by virtue of that thinking and those strategies. We have a GC, we call it GC3. It's a mission. It's a global cities challenge that we create, which is around climate. it's really trying to look at all ⁓ projects as an opportunity to make a move to better the environments that they're in. We also created this thing called GPS, which is a approach to setting minimum threshold for materials and finishes that are brought into projects from a carbon footprint standpoint. So it really starts to cause us and since we put this out there in the larger public, you know, know, architects and designers to just think about the materials that they're weaving into their projects. Caroline Valvardi: That's awesome. And then the balance with that, it's interesting because it's there's the whole tech side of it, which sometimes can, you I don't know, be in conflict a little bit when people think about tech versus sustainability. But there's a very obviously important thought around innovation and immersive experiences and how you bring kind of technology into these spaces, too. And so you can talk a little bit about how you're thinking about that element of it, of creating these immersive experiences. And I know with Surge and even probably some projects that we talk about with you guys, how we think about these long phase when we're specifically talking about sports and entertainment mixed use, it could be 10, 15 years by the time that it's fully complete and technology's evolving so quickly and how do you stay up with the trends by the time it's actually done? so anyway, yeah, so kind of transitioning it to that side of things. How do you think about technology and just the immersive experience element and making sure that it's something that will stay relevant and still feel communal and placemaking because people still want to that togetherness, which technology also can have the opposite effect of people on their phones or whatever. ⁓ Jordan Goldstein: The whole technology question is so fascinating and so relevant, not just from the experiential side, but also from the design side. So maybe I'll start there, because the tools in the designer's toolbox have changed so much. ⁓ taken this proactive approach to AI and thinking about how we look at the design process. And me, this is close to heart, because ⁓ 30 years ago when I came to Gensler, it was at a time where the whole industry was moving from analog to digital. And I had spent a lot of time really focusing on digital design while I getting my master's degree at Penn. And I really wanted to jump in and dive into what does it mean to be a digital design firm. And others at the time that were coming in fresh from academia had a similar drive. So it was an opportunity to really kind of push profession to think differently about how technology was used. So you fast forward 30 years, and here we are at this moment where technology is changing so fast, and there's this wave of disruption coming into the industry. So how we design is so different. It's very experiential. It's very storytelling driven, and it's using AI and other related interfaces and tools. to really think differently about how we can sit down with our clients and more, you know, in more real time settings, play around with different scenarios and think about day in the life for the different users you know, different audience of, you know, of a venue, of new district, and really run those simulations and see and feel what it would be like to be there long before a shovel hits the ground. So then you flip to the other side of that and you think about the venues. themselves and how technology just requiring constant innovation. On the CAP1 project that I mentioned earlier, we actually ⁓ this ⁓ new ⁓ together with Monumental Sportswear. When you come in and you think about it, when the seating bowl, there's areas of opacity that you be walking around the concourse and you wouldn't be seeing in. But what if the walls of that were actually all screens and you're able to ⁓ you know, experience what's happening on the court or on the rink as you're walking around as if those walls didn't exist. So it was like dematerializing the building. So we call this visible and it is a new technology that's being employed, you know, for that project that I think will be groundbreaking. And then we also think about how people are experiencing, you know, sporting events. you know, all of a sudden the digital interface you know, becomes as important. So being able to recognize that the touch points for people, you extend long before they're walking into a venue. It's while they're in the venue and then it continues afterwards. So, you know, from a sports owner standpoint, if you're able to really tap into that, you're connecting with your fan base at a whole different level. And it creates so much more opportunity for brand growth, for revenue growth. and for fan engagement. Caroline Valvardi: Yeah, it's really fascinating. And do you see any differences generationally with any of your younger employees of how they think about or is some of it automatic or I mean, you have the benefit of all these areas of seeing evolution, which I would imagine adds a lot of value in that way. but ⁓ you yeah, do you see any differences in the way that your team thinks about it was just Jordan Goldstein: Well, what's great about our environment is that we really create the studio settings for our teams where it's very, multi-generational environments, but it's also interdisciplinary. So when you get around the table, you have ⁓ different generations from an experience standpoint, different expertise from a point of view standpoint, you just mix that together. And I think that I've long been a believer that architecture and design is not a solo art. It's really solutions that are made richer by the voices of many that are around the table. And I think that's what creates this kind of great environment. So someone that is in their career that may be ⁓ an incredibly astute native, sitting next someone that could be an amazing ⁓ seasoned vet. with hospitality expertise, you know, in a portfolio that's volumes long, you know, and a sports, you know, practice expert, you know, put those three together, you could get something amazing and innovative. And the goal is differentiated. Why should your venue look like the venue that was just done by that other team, you know, last year? know, and at the same time, when you think about sports and ⁓ districts, You know, how do you do it in a way that there's agility woven in so that, you know, you using technology to start to have this predictive analytics of what mix is going to be successful, you know, of program to make something vibrant from day one and also equally vibrant at day, you know, 3000. Caroline Valvardi: that's probably a little bit of a good segue to as of course the Roar podcast and Roar is our data arm at Surge. And it's been really cool to see how valuable that has been as we think about sports entertainment districts and being able to collaborate in a much deeper way with partners, including yourselves when we about how to develop ⁓ these sports entertainment districts ⁓ even beyond, know, Roar also, you know, beyond that on the just fan engagement and kind of generally partnerships and sponsorships for teams. so, yeah, how do you specifically, how do you think about that piece when you're making decisions for sports entertainment and even some of your other verticals or the work that you're doing? ⁓ do you use it? Think about it implemented in ⁓ decision. Jordan Goldstein: Yeah, I mean, like working with you and your team at Surge and certainly with the ROAR capabilities added in there, I think it brings another dimension that is so valuable when there's big dollars on the line in these projects. thinking through, ⁓ do you ⁓ data as a currency to really start to look at different Again, long you know, hammer hits the nail shovel hits the ground, whatever you want to say to really have more surety on a process. So you're to make this investment if you're a sports owner, or let's say you're in the collegiate space and you're going to be doing, you know, a new, you know, basketball arena or a new, you know, stadium or stadium expansion on campus. You know, let's let's start to map out, you know, the revenue models, you know, for this. that start to look at what is the range of seating types and experiences that are going to be woven in, price points of those, ⁓ the return on investment. When you go outside, you start to think about the mix of the components ⁓ a sports and entertainment driven mixed use district. Like, okay, well, we're going to have live music in here. Well, what kind of venue is going to really work in this environment? What's the ⁓ the competitive landscape look like? you know, what's the mix of food and beverage, you in retail that's going to work in this and being able to kind of adjust those levers and those dials to see and you know, what feels right and start use predictive analytics to game plan this thing in a way that says that, you know what, all right, this feels like it's the right mix. It's the right approach. And then kind of further into design. You know, the old days of designing and, you know, hope you get it right. Two years later, three years later, it's built. That's gone. Caroline Valvardi: Yeah. Yeah, it's been really interesting with Adam Grossman, who's our chief data analytics officer and had started ROAR the way that he talks about it, because a lot of that is just beyond my expertise area. But the things that really and I think are so interesting ⁓ when he talks about ⁓ data, too, because when you think about yourself, if you take a survey, you might say you do one thing, but in actuality, you actually do another thing. ⁓ I think that just the evolution and as data, then how we think about it becomes more sophisticated. Like what are people actually doing? And so thinking about it like that, I think is super powerful because yeah, people often don't do what they say that they think they do, or they might think they do a certain, but when you actually look at their behaviors, it's not necessarily like that. anyway, yeah, so think that's super interesting point. And Adam also often talks about his line, let me get it right, says, people say, Build it and they will come, but with the data, build it so that they will come because you have the data to recognize. Yes, yeah. Jordan Goldstein: Yeah, that's a much better tweak of that of that statement. Yeah. And something that at Gensler, we really believe as well, which is, all the tools that are available now to sit and really start up the thinking on a project. Why guess? Right. ⁓ no need. You know, it's you know, it's ⁓ opportunity and the technology is now, you know, here. That moment is now. be able to build it in a way where they will come and it becomes a must experience destination. Caroline Valvardi: now transitioning a little bit just to get what what gets you excited upset like in the on project work. And so first, we'll start with the what brings you joy in I mean, looking back, I guess could say on your career with Gensler, particularly as it relates to sports, what would you say has brought you the most joy in either, you know, as a specific project or ⁓ accomplishment of Gensler or it be an everyday something, what gets you out of bed, I guess, is the question when it comes to Gensler, particularly the sports. Jordan Goldstein: Well, for the 30 years that I've been here, what really gets me excited is that every single day is totally different. And the fact that we are a global firm that not always every day different, but we're a 24-7 environment. There's something going on in our Gensler ecosystem every moment of every day. And I think that's what's great about it is that there's such diversity of practice happening. There's such richness of, you know, client relationships and depth of, you know, opportunity and the people that we have, you know, are just bringing that energy, you know, to each opportunity. So for me personally, what I love ⁓ is, know, I love when the projects are starting up and there's this, you know, sense of what can it be, you know, No wrong ideas. Let's put it out there. Let's just think differently. Right. And at the same time, I also love when people are walking through those doors or into a new district, you know, for that very first time and you're seeing their reaction, you know, I love it. You know, I'll give you an example, you know, you know, on a personal level, you know, I went to the University of Maryland undergrad and we did the University of Maryland's basketball performance center. And there's this great ⁓ There's great clips of the men's and women's basketball teams, you know, seeing the facility for the first time. you see like just jaws drop, you know, just sheer excitement for what they're experiencing, because it's a pro level facility. there's you know, that like this is their new home. So that's just super cool. ⁓ Or go into a venue like Moody Center that, you know, that we did over at University of Texas. and you go and it's a concert. And then the next day it's a basketball game and you see that fan base kind of pulling in, piling into the place ⁓ it's just awesome to see that. So I love those moments and that's what I find really exciting. But I guess maybe to sum it up, what I really, really love is that these projects, these opportunities are so collaborative. And if we do it right, you know, it's this kind of great symphony, you know, we get this great opportunity from a design standpoint to be conductors of that symphony, which is, you know, kind of this honor and privilege. But at the same time, you know, like, you know, there's these, you know, the composition itself, you know, the journey, you know, can be so much fun if it's done right. it can be this, ⁓ know, these moments, these milestone moments as you go. ⁓ that are just really special. Caroline Valvardi: Thank you for sharing that. you about, particularly sports and entertainment districts or just the other sports projects you work on, if it's just an arena or stadium themselves, anything in the sports space, is there anything you want to see more of or less of that you think is working well or not well or as you look at trends ahead. Jordan Goldstein: we've definitely ⁓ experimenting with, know, within the venues, different approaches to, you know, ⁓ the fan experience ⁓ that, you every moment ⁓ of ⁓ the or event present itself with opportunities. You know, if you're moving around the venue. ⁓ you know, that it's experiential, that it doesn't feel, you know, too, you know, utilitarian or not well thought through. that kind of street to seat, you know, journey is curated, it's thought through. And the environment that you're in, that you feel part of the action. At the same time, when we think of the sports and entertainment districts, What I think about, you know, is, and I'm excited about is, you know, just realizing that there's this wonderful moment to think about how venues their surrounding areas can really kind of weave together differently. And it's not so much that edge of the stadium is end ⁓ of sports experience. In my it can be really looked at as in a sense, you know, integrated in totally with it. with the surrounding area such that it actually is a blurry edge. actually means that the district around it and the venue itself start of weave together in a way where you actually maybe don't have the kind of defined lines that feel so hard and fast from venues of old. Caroline Valvardi: Yeah, it's interesting to think in that way. Because when I think about the work, we're so focused at Surgeon, not the arena or stadium, and really just thinking about the area around. And from my background, more in the community development, think of it like the stadium and arena is almost the, it's almost like that. The mixed use district is the anchor in the state. So it's just so interesting to think as these mixed use districts get bigger, it's And the whole point is that they're active outside of game day. And so it's like, OK, yeah, there's going to be a game at the stadium or arena, this or that day. the rest of the activity and the vibrancy is there all the time. so that, the stadium and arena and the events become just kind of part of the bigger picture versus the main event, yes, you could say. Jordan Goldstein: Yeah. And I think you guys are doing this at Surge. And I know it's something that we believe in too, which is that these districts, ⁓ mixed use districts, ⁓ really keys to unlocking these often complex sites where people perhaps looked at them through a lens that maybe ⁓ has kind of level ⁓ of that ⁓ we have been talking about. You know, I think that, you know, whether it's a practice facility that's part of that mixed use district or sports venue or live music venue, or all of those things that are woven in there, the sports and entertainment district is, think, the when we think about, you know, in 2027, 2028, you know, all the way to 2030, like what are some of the, you know, exciting opportunities out there? It's in these sports and entertainment mixed use districts. That's where there's so much room. to create this 365 day a year experience. Caroline Valvardi: Yep, very true. Maybe to kind of culminate a lot of what we've talked about and ⁓ your specific role at Gensler, I would love to hear you talk a little bit about just you as a leader of the company, what you prioritize as a leader and clearly you're doing something right and you've been there a very long time. you you see even in career so far, I've seen some good, bad, ugly, and it's very refreshing just to see and you when you talk to other people, work at the company, things like you can get a feel for, you know, how things are working in an organization and things like that. And ⁓ experience with you guys has been very positive. And so we'd just love to hear you talk a little bit about what you prioritize as a leader. Jordan Goldstein: Well, thanks. I'm glad that the experiences have been positive. I being here and growing a career here, but also something I think has really taught me a lot about collaboration and just thinking about design and how is brought out and brought to projects. I've ⁓ been in CEO now for three years with my business partner, Brink, who's based out of LA. like a co-leadership model is kind of baked into our firm's DNA. There's 300 different kind of co-leadership positions in the firm. I used to be an office leader of Washington, DC, but it was a co-leadership scenario. Same for some other roles that I've had in the firm over the years. But for Elizabeth and I, one of the things we just really relish is that we get to constantly experience the dynamism of this global firm. But the best part about that is that it can be so local. You know, we're in 56 different locations. Yes, we're a global firm, but when we're in those locations, like we're really like in the markets, in those cities. So I love visiting these other offices and, you know, I'm on the road a lot, which is, you know, constantly, you know, I think kind of ⁓ a to different markets to thinking about what does it mean to be ⁓ You know, Gensler, you know, doing what we talked about doing, you know, in London, in Tokyo, in Paris, you know, in Mexico City, in Washington, D.C., L.A., New York, etc. And each of those offices is really very much of that market. But at the same time, it's still the global us. And so that's what I love and just kind of almost the thread as I go around. and seeing and experiencing these different environments. So that's what I really love about doing this. At the same time, find that it's also, from a leadership, personal leadership standpoint, each of these kind of opportunities into these roles over these 30 years has also given me an opportunity to kind of like grow new muscle that maybe I probably didn't think I had to be be other than architect and a designer. Caroline Valvardi: Alright. Jordan Goldstein: but also to be a leader, to be ⁓ engaged in the community, to be helping to try to innovate and change this profession, to still be connected to academia. And at the same time, looking at, with our clients, just looking at opportunities to just be able to create these profound solutions that create these transformative environments for them and the people that they are connecting with in the communities that they're part of. Caroline Valvardi: Yeah, well, thank you. it reminds me back to, because those NBA All-Star, I think it was the NBA Newsmakers event. I think you were there too when we heard the whole lineup of, of Bob Iger and Mildy Hopson and a few of those others, uh, just talking about leadership. And I don't, for me it was, yeah, very inspiring and refreshing when, you know, you see successful people and just the way that they talk about how they've built their teams and, and, and, you know, healthy, productive environments and you see the success from that. And so always enjoy and appreciate hearing. from successful people as such as yourself to see how you approach leadership. So thank you. Jordan Goldstein: Well, thanks. And I appreciate you having me on. What I love about this is, yes, we're talking about leadership, but we're talking about sports. I think sports has the great power to unite and bring people together. And from a leadership standpoint, I love that we're talking about what are the characteristics and qualities of leadership, because I feel like when you're bringing people together, if sports is a catalyst to do that, those are also great moments to really kind of tease out. you know, what are the kind of qualities of leadership that can bring these often large and complex projects to life that they become enduring parts of the community, you know, by virtue of all the thinking that went into them. Caroline Valvardi: Yes, for sure. And then I guess to ⁓ close out with the last question, which maybe you've already answered, but what's next for Gensler? And maybe it's already a thing with sports entertainment districts or, but yeah, how do you think about the And yeah, what's next? ⁓ Jordan Goldstein: Yeah, it's funny you say that because Elizabeth and I have been spending a lot of time thinking about, you know, how do you, do we think beyond boundaries and what is designing the next really look like? with all the things that you and I have talked about, about technology and ⁓ tools that are available today that will change tomorrow and be something totally different. And with all these opportunities to, you know, to design, you know, in communities around the world. You know, what feels like it's next is to really, you know, just think totally differently, you know, kind of step back and say, all right, you know, there's an opportunity to just bring a whole different level of creative thinking, you know, to this. And what does it mean to be creative partners, you know, for us, what does it mean to be creative partners, you know, that are, that are thinking about the future? that's what's exciting is that don't come in with a script. Don't come in with a specific style. But come in with the and talent and the to be able channel resources around to then bring something totally unique to that opportunity. Caroline Valvardi: Perfect, well that feels like a good way to close things out and very much appreciate you coming on the podcast and wish you the best ⁓ all the things that are next and I'm sure I'll be seeing you around DC soon. ⁓ Jordan Goldstein: Sounds great.