Latest / Conservation Stories / Rooted in Resilience: Tillery Timmons-Sims on Faith, Farming, and the Future of Conservation with Guest Host Nicholas Bergfeld

Transcript

Rooted in Resilience: Tillery Timmons-Sims on Faith, Farming, and the Future of Conservation with Guest Host Nicholas Bergfeld · Conservation Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign. Hello, friends, and welcome back to another edition of Conservation Stories. This is a podcast brought to you by the Sandhills Area Research association, or Sarah, as we say, because it's a lot easier to say than that whole big o long phrase. And I am not actually going to be the host today. We're kind of going to flip the script on you because you've probably listened to several of our podcasts and maybe you're wondering, who is the host, Tillery Timmins Sims? Like, who is this unknown person and why am I listening to her and how come she is knows about all of these random facts? So, on the advice of the producer, I have asked my friend Nick Burgfield, who has been the host of the number one syndicated radio show, non syndicated. Pardon me, non syndicated radio show in Lubbock around town, which was a great podcast. Are they still. Is it. Are they out there somewhere where people can hear them?
• 1:21
  Speaker B: You can still find them on Texas Tech Public Media website as well as on Spotify, but unfortunately, we're no longer broadcasting on air.
• 1:27
  Speaker A: So sad. Because they were really good. And a lot kind of the format I think that we have of, you know, local folks and what's happening, you know, maybe more on the rural side than in the urban side, you know, so. But real similar. So Nick and I met. Gosh, 2019, I think. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not actually sure how we met, but I think it had something to do with hemp, which will be part of this conversation, I'm sure. So I would like to just pitch it to you.
• 2:03
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 2:04
  Speaker A: And let you try to interview me.
• 2:08
  Speaker B: Yeah, it sounds great. Well, hey, y'all, I'm Nick Burkefeld. Very excited to be here today and to talk with my dear friend Tillery about her life and all the things that she works on for the betterment of our community out here. I've gotten to know tillery over about 7, 8 years and seen her energy and drive and motivation really move the needle on a lot of different topics here in West Texas. And so the opportunity to help shed a little bit of light on who this amazing person is for me is just a lot of fun. So I'm going to get a kick out of this.
• 2:40
  Speaker A: It's going to be fun. It's going to be fun. I'm a little nervous, I must admit.
• 2:44
  Speaker B: Too funny. So, Tillery, I just want to start by saying, how would you describe your connection to West Texas?
• 2:53
  Speaker A: Well, fourth generation farm family, both sides. My dad's family settled in the Ropesville area, and my Mom's family in the Needmore area. And then union and union originally over on the way to like Lamisa Welch, that union, because we have a lot of unions and a lot of. Need more than Texas, so. And then need more. And then they. Their parents eventually bought land in Terry county across the. Across the turn row from each other. And that's how they met. My dad was at Ropesville High School and my mom was in Brownfield, and. And then I married local boy. He was an odd boy. He was. He's eight years older than me. So I do recommend actually marrying a grown man. It's very helpful. So Doug and I were. Our families have been friends for many years. He's, you know, was farming. And I expected my life to be just like my mom's and my grandmother's and my great grandmothers. And yet here I am living in.
• 4:00
  Speaker B: Town, you know, Lubbock, over time, starting as a farm community has grown a lot over. Over the years. And as a part of that, we have a lot of folks in the community now that don't necessarily have a strong connection to what farm life is.
• 4:13
  Speaker A: That's true.
• 4:14
  Speaker B: What were some of your experiences like growing up in farm life?
• 4:18
  Speaker A: So I think when I was growing up, it was. I look at our culture and I know this is just my opinion, but I divide our culture between pre GMO and post gmo. And I don't have any issues with the science of GMOs. I think it's like every type of innovation, it comes with positives and negatives, and I think it changed a lot of our culture in the way that I grew up. The innovation has changed the need for, you know, kids to be on the farm as much, you know. And so it was really my generation where I started seeing, like, some of my friends, they might be in farm families, but they're not living on the farm, you know. And then. Then my kids generation was definitely a mass exodus from the small communities in Talubbock to really get into private schools and, you know, live more of a city life, you know. And so it's changed a lot. There are. And I just have so much respect for those folks that are still out there, you know, it's. It's hard here to live in the country. In fact, we'll be releasing a podcast of that. My husband and I did, Doug talking about our. Our history in agriculture and. And we went through bankruptcy. And particularly we spent a lot of time talking about that in that episode. And I told him after we'd been we moved. We decided to move to Lubbock after about two weeks. I was like, there's a reason people moved to town because it is a lot more convenient than living 75 miles in any direction from a Walmart, you know, and so the struggle of, you know, if you're from that community, it's great, and you have deep, deep, deep roots and connections. But if you move into it, it's very difficult to break into. I've got two or three really deep relationships from those times because we actually moved from where we grew up, which is in the Brownfield area north. And so it's a hard life. And, you know, it's. It's a lot of stress and a lot of. Everything's on the line every year. Everything's on the line every year. And probably, you know, Lacey Vardaman will say, you know, it's about once a decade you make a crop, you know, and it's getting. It's getting harder and harder. It's never been easy here, you know, And I think arguably, you know, I like what Jeremy Brown says. He's like, I think we're trying to outperform our environment, you know, and so I think a lot of people are, you know, embracing that idea as we come closer and closer to the end of our irrigation supply of water. You know, so what that's like for, you know, the people that are living in these small surrounding towns is that they have a deep sense of loyalty and they want a lot of them to raise their kids there. You know, they maybe did graduate from that school, and they stayed and they had a great experience, you know, and they want that for their kids, but they also want other things for them, you know, And I have a friend that they. They moved their family out to about 20 miles out of town, and we're, you know, coming back and forth. And she said it's hard to live a city life and a country life. You really kind of. You have to pick when you choose that. You know, it's the choice of giving up a lot of things that just. They're not available. Those opportunities aren't necessarily going to be available to your kids unless you, you know, move them into town. And so a lot of people are making a lot of sacrifices to keep that culture alive. And. And, you know, what we would love to do is to see it not just alive, but vibrant again, you know, and it's interesting, Nick, I remember when Walmart came into Brownfield and people were like, this is going to kill all of our small business it's going to kill all of our small business. And guess what did. It killed all of our small businesses. And now guess what Walmart has left. I think West Texas in particular is, is particularly hard. And I think part of it is, is just because our, our communities are closer together, you know, and so they do kind of compete. I remember when we moved north, we had go like one town you go to church, and one town you go to the bank. And another town, you know, you go, you know, to the accountant, and another town you go to the hospital, you know, so you're like in four different directions, you know, because there's not enough population in one of those communities to have the infrastructure.
• 8:50
  Speaker B: Yeah. Earlier you mentioned the role that technology has played in your lifetime in changing the way that agriculture is done out here and increasing productivity, but also decreasing the number of individuals that are actually involved in the operations and the consolidation of the family farm into these massive acreages. What are some of your personal experiences that you've had as a result of these changes over time?
• 9:17
  Speaker A: Well, you know, for us it meant you have to be bigger and bigger. You're making less money per acre every single year if you're making money per acre, you know, and so it's a matter of scale, you know, and so you have to become bigger and bigger and bigger. And the truth is that a lot, these big, big, massive farms are still family farms. Right. But they're just in order to survive or in order to make any money. And most of them aren't even doing that, you know, is that as each acre becomes less profitable, you know, then there's a push to say, you know, the answer is to, you know, higher yields. Higher yields can't continue to be the answer, you know, and the answer's got to be, you know, the bottom line has to increase. And so if the bottom line per yield is per acre is not increasing, you got to increase your acres in order to make more money. And so then you see now, you know, cost of the land is like, enormous. It's, I'm surprising to me how much people are paying for land, you know, And I mean, it's hard. That makes it harder to get in, you know, and then as profits go down, then landlords aren't happy because they're, you know, their farm's not as profitable. And so, you know, they are, you know, wanting to, you know, change tenants and, you know, to somebody that's, you know, they think is going to make more. So it's, it's. There's Always good and there's always bad. And, you know, I think we don't really. Until we get hit between the eyes with the social ramifications, do we ever think about what the social ramifications are going to be of technology? And I am pro technology. I mean, we actually at the moment have a contract to help NASA Acres, and so super excited about that. And so we're pro technology. But you've got to look at all of it and think like, okay, now what has this done to our local communities and what does that mean for them?
• 11:23
  Speaker B: Looking at these trends over time and how while benefits to business and productivity have occurred, the social aspects of what this does to communities is pretty tough to deal with. And for somebody who's grown up in it, it would be a very easy response to want to get away from that, to want to find something else to think about or to do to be involved in. Where does the energy and passion come from for you in this work and still being involved in rolling up your sleeves?
• 11:52
  Speaker A: I think it's my grandparents. I think it's thinking about the investment of years, you know, that people saw something. Either they saw something in this area or they came here because they were desperate. And I think that a lot of it was the second. You know, that's that ladder that my families came here because, you know, part of it is like the last frontier, really, if you think about what. What was the last frontier in the United States? And we are really part of that. You know, we're not that old here. Our history is not that old. And I mean, as far as us as what we call white Americans, I guess, you know, obviously there's, you know, people here before us, but they were doing things differently, you know, but they came here because they needed a place where they could make a living and raise their families, and they weren't finding that where they were, you know. And so that, to me, it's that the spirit of determination that they stuck it out, like, through the dust bowl and that, you know, like, I can remember my husband's grandma talking about, like, how she. In the house that we lived in before, like, they built a house. The house that we lived in. We were first married, but it was. They built it in front of the original house that they lived in. And she would stand cooking on the stove with the blanket over herself and the stove, because the sand was just blowing through the house. And that people made that kind of sacrifice to create what we have here, that they saw that value. And for us to just say, like there's no value here. I just. I can't. I can't see it. And I do sometimes feel, you know, out of place because some of the things I care about, it feels like maybe aren't, you know, as much on people's radar. But I think part of that is because there's not been the opportunity for them to be there. I grew up in a county that had a very active Soil Water Conservation District, and they're still one of the better, one of the best, I think. You know, we always. I didn't know growing up any different, you know, and it wasn't until I saw some others that I was like, wait a minute. This isn't what I remember. I remember that the whole. That you. You have to rent all these buses for the farm tour every year. You know, people are going on this farm tour. And, you know, I remember when they passed by our house, and we're, you know, 30 miles in the middle of nowhere, you know, and we're. All the kids and I were outside, you know, and of course, we also had political sons, you know, Vote for da da da da da. So I will say that I did grow up in a family that my dad's very. If anyone knows my dad, you know, he's very opinionated and. And so like that. We used to say we had politics for breakfast at my house growing up, you know. And so I've been. I definitely had that, you know, kind of ingrained in me that, like, maybe even my aunt used to say, y'all, that's called codependency, you know, fix everybody's problems, you know. But I think that's part of it is, you know, just always seeing that. My mom always thought things can. You can always do something more efficient. And my dad is always going to fight a battle and not afraid to ruffle feathers, you know, And I, you know, those are. Can be, you know, for every strength, there's coordinating weaknesses, you know, And I have a friend that says, but you can't mess with one without messing with the other, you know, and so trying to, like. Like take the best of those things that I saw and. And digging into those. You know what I mean? Like, okay, so what are the. What are the good parts of this? And how can I spend my energy developing the strengths of that trait, you know? And so it's been a weird process getting here, you know? Cause Nick, my family was involved in a really. Well, it's actually on the list of cults now. And of course, my parents bless their Hearts. I'm sure they're listening. Love you guys. Love you guys. They loved, love and care for us deeply, you know, and, and I, my kids tell me all the time, yeah, you made a lot of mistakes, but I never wonder if you did it because you loved us or not. I never wonder, you know, and so I always remember how gracious my kids have been to us to be forgiving our mistakes, you know, so. But that was very, to use a term maybe more people are familiar with, patriarchal. So there was, you know, it was, it was a sin to work if you're a woman. That was just not, not something that was an option for me. And I also had severe, what I know now to be dyslexia and add, which so was completely undiagnosed at the time. Nobody even heard the word dyslexia, you know, and so, and ADD Girls didn't have that, you know, that was a boy thing. I did not do well in school. And then, so it didn't feel like I, you know, had the capacity to do something besides, you know, I'm going to be a wife and mother.
• 17:04
  Speaker B: Right.
• 17:04
  Speaker A: You know, which is, you know, I don't have, I have some regrets on how, like, I think I could have been a better mother if I had probably worked, you know, because I think that just the kind of personality that I have, that I homeschooled my kids and, you know, spent a lot of time with them and didn't spend any time thinking about, what am I going to do when they're gone.
• 17:28
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
• 17:30
  Speaker A: And of course then we wound up adopting Joseph, you know, about the time they were all gone, we pretty much kind of started over with a 12 year old from China.
• 17:39
  Speaker B: To continue on this, it's clear that there were a lot of barriers to you being able to find success and to be your authentic self in life. To do the work that you do today requires you to work with a lot of people who have very different views, disagree on a lot of different things. And in that world, you're known as somebody who can build community. When you think about the challenges, the barriers that you've had to overcome in your life, what are some of the experiences that you think have really helped you get to this point?
• 18:10
  Speaker A: Realizing the damage that black and white thinking does. That's what all cults are about. They're all looking for security. That security of this is the exact thing in every situation. And, and when I know what that formula is, then I'm secure. I know who I am. I think a Lot. All so often about funeral on the roof. I don't know. That is just such a wonderful, wonderful musical. And, you know, it's all about him trying what's. What's more important to me, tradition or relationship? And for me, that has been. I would think that that's kind of just like the theme of what my life has been in the last 20 years is just like, why am I doing what I'm doing? Is it because it's just traditional or because it's what I've seen done? Or, you know, what's more important? And it's people, you know, and the people that are around me, my family and my community. And as, you know, the years have gone by. I've been fortunate to, you know, just like, having Joseph, you know, going through Covid with a little Chinese kid was really difficult here, you know, and you take a kid who's just learning to read English, and the only word he knows is the F word. So he recognizes it when it's a sign and says, F the Chinese, you know, and, you know, so when you begin to experience those things in your family, it builds empathy. And that is something that I did not have, I didn't value, you know, because to me, empathy meant that I might be wrong about the things that I'm sure about, you know, and that vulnerability is not a fun place, you know, to be in. And part of that is, you know, when you deal with trauma, no one wants to be the victim. And so a lot of times you will diminish the things that you've been through. Because if you say these things that happened to me and were done to me were wrong and there was nothing I could do about it, that is a very powerless position to be in, you know. And so I will say that I spent some time, you know, feeling that way through bankruptcy, that, you know, dealing with the reality of, okay, now here I am, my kids are leaving. What's my value? What am I going to do? But then I recognize that all the things that have happened through the years, our bankruptcy, I've had a lot of rejection on religious. You know, the religious side of things. There's been some really, really traumatic things that have happened there, but it has all coalesced to making me who I am. That. That suffering is kind of just built the empathy muscle. You know, I remember when Joseph first came, like, as counselors saying, it's a muscle, you know, you can build empathy. That's something that has just developed over the years that has led me to, like, taking The. My mom's trait of, like, could we do that easier? Isn't there a better way to clean your room? I think there's an easier way to make, you know, why are we canning this way? Or let's chuck corn a different way? You know, like, let's. Let's do something, you know, a different way that might be easier. And in seeing that and seeing the problems that I mean so clearly see, you know, I think that there are just some people that kind of see those things. And how can I be a service? How can I take the things that I've learned? I never set out? I would say I didn't know that I was building a career, you know, in 2019. I had no idea that that's what I was doing. But that is, you know, I was thinking about, you know, today, what we were talking about, and I was like, if you think two things that I think have been instrumental in the last several years, it's grit and gall, you know, like. And I don't know, maybe because I never felt like I was someone that has. Has had confidence, you know, but more of when you're doing something for someone else, it's like there is a reason for you to do it besides just your, you know, just you.
• 22:33
  Speaker B: People around you who work with you see the strength of will and determination that you bring to the work. And this deeper understanding of it that you're talking about here, just for me, at least gives it really strong appreciation for your lived experiences and how they've made you the way that you are today and why you are so capable of doing this work. And I'm curious, at what point did you know that conservation was something you wanted to go all in on?
• 23:04
  Speaker A: My goodness, like I do. I can't even pinpoint, I think a day. But just, you know, I grew up in the Limbaugh era, you know, environmentalist wackos is all I ever knew, you know, and you were either an environmentalist wacko because it's black and white thinking. And so you either were a wacko or you, you know, were. You didn't believe in it at all. You know, there was nothing in the middle. And as I think when we started getting involved in hemp, I took a job on, like, to investigate hemp for an absentee landowner. I wasn't thinking about conservation. I was thinking when I figured out what it was, what we're actually talking about, not marijuana. We were talking about a plant that is a food, a feed and a fiber plant that can be grown in Rotation with other things. Why aren't we thinking about this? It seemed like an opportunity, but that put me around other people that I would have never been around. And some of them I never hope to be around again. And that's just the truth, you know, they're pretty bad. But it also, like, I remember I connected with a friend, and he's. He grew up in. His family, is one of the settlers in Terry County. He and I connected. He connected with me through hemp Trevor Vaughn. And, you know, I knew his grandparents, who they were. I mean, his mom had moved off, and they're very deeply connected. They were cheerleaders at tech, and you know what I mean? So he's rooted in this area, but is living in New York. And he called me and he said when his granddad died, he's like, trevor, like, I want you to be thinking about. I want. I want you to think about this land. Think about it, you know, and he's like, it's not something I ever, ever thought about other than just the casual, you know, be there for the summer, you know. And he. He started because of his granddad. He started, like, reading about this area and learning about our area, and then learned about grapes and wound up getting his viticulture certification. And, like, you know, then he started reading. He told me, said, I read about the Ogallala aquifer, and I wanted to go up and down the streets of Brooklyn and scream, the aquifer is going away. It is going away. And I was like, you know, like, what? Because it's like sometimes I feel like we have this collective fear that has paralyzed us into not accepting the reality of the situation that we're in and where we're heading. And, you know, I keep saying we're going to hit a brick wall at 150 miles an hour if we don't slow down and think about what can we. Changes can we make? And I think people think we have to make a big change, you know? Well, it's Trevor that, you know, of course, he was like, I'm like, trevor, don't talk to me about worms one more time. I don't want to hear about earthworms. You're. This is crazy. And then, you know, I'm like, find out that my friend Lacey here's like, yeah, we had this worm pile, blah, blah, blah. And I was like. And so I'm like, maybe there's something to this. So then I'm like, okay, Trevor, tell me about worms, you know? And he is like, so exciting. What he's doing. He's working with Buckminster Fuller Institute, and they are helping him to actually purchase some land that was in his family and for research. So, I mean, it's a really exciting thing. And I worked with him for a long time on that project, you know, and trying to figure out how can we put something in that maybe is. Is some kind of incubator for, you know, on farm research. And, you know, also Curtis Griffith and Dolly at. I can't remember Dolly's last name, but she' in Morton, and she's taken her family land and converted it to a research farm. So, you know, Lacey has got a piece of land that they want to do research on. So it's the influence of these. The people and seeing the success that people were having with other things and then going like, I don't know how many states I've been to now, and seeing ag production. You know, I think it was like three years ago, did a project for an organization out of Oregon and basically put together an ag syllabus for the Foreign Ag Service for a tour there. And, you know, and then, first time I'd seen hops, you know, and did this whole ag tour of Oregon that I had to, you know, put all the documents together and all this hybrid stuff for them to learn about this. And seeing that, like, that getting out of our culture and seeing that other people are doing things. I can remember how shocked I was when I was in Oregon, and the guy was like, yeah, this is, you know, they pulled up, the whole hands pulled up, and they're, you know, in a nice van and pulling a, you know, a portable potty behind it. And he's used a drone to identify all of the, you know, hemp plants, their mail in his field, and they go directly to that and pull that up, and he's paying them $21 an hour. And. And I'm like, what? And he's like, yeah, like, no big deal to him. It was just part of. Part of it, you know, And I couldn't even imagine thinking that way. You know, like, he just. This cost of production here, you know, it's just being exposed to people that I realized weren't crazy. But we're thinking about these things and seeing conservation in other states. Oh, my goodness. We have seen so many things in Oklahoma and in the Dakotas, and, you know, you're just like, I mean, the middle of Boston. There are so much things. There's so many things happening that are so good that we don't have to be afraid of out here on the Texas plains, water is everything. And there's a resource that's as vital as it is fragile. Our Playa lakes. These lakes are nature's reservoir, catching rainwater to recharge our aquifer and provide lifelines for wildlife. But now they need our help. In collaboration with the Texas Playa Lakes Conservation Initiative and the Cargill Global Water Challenge, Sarah has started the Our Legacy Is Tomorrow's Water initiative to inspire and work with landowners to restore and protect our Playa Lakes. Each playa we save helps secure a sustainable water future for the generations that will be coming after us. Whether it's improving soil health, restoring habitats, or recharging groundwater, we are committed to making a difference. Together, we can build a legacy that we can all be proud of. To learn how you can join in, visit the Playa Lakes Restoration Initiative page on the SARAH website. Let's keep Texas water flowing strong for the future. Visit sara-conservation.com.
• 30:43
  Speaker B: To do this work requires the ability to maintain curiosity about the world around you. And as you've traveled to all these different locations, seen the types of great work that people are doing across the United States and abroad, have you noticed any similarities in the people that are doing this type of work? Who are those individuals that are saying, I'm going to be a leader in this. I'm somebody who wants to be the first mover.
• 31:10
  Speaker A: I think there's way more in common between those urban and rural leaders than they think. And some of it is I have seen, you know, people who have had unrealistic expectations about what it's like to be on the farm and they're going to come and teach people. I don't know if I had a dollar for every time some nicely put body somebody said in him, I'm going to teach farmers how to farm this. And I'm like, because I've been farming it for 40 years. I'm like, you've been breaking the law for 40 years is what you've been doing. You haven't been farming, you know, like, no, no. You know, but I've seen, I see people that have, like, oh. And then I heard a woman that moved to Texas from somewhere in the northeast and she's going to put in a farm and show people. And she's like, uh, I was wrong. It is hard. It is not easy. That's one of the things I think that they have in common is an honesty. You know, I asked, we were in Boston and they have this program where they will train people to, like, take Their, you know, hey, let me teach you how to farm, which was really like, garden, what we would think of as gardening. Let me teach you how to garden and make money, you know, on this, whatever it is, by you or whatever. And so I asked the guys, like, well, are they making money? And he said, no, you can't make money doing this. And he said, I. I've tried to find somebody that could help us figure out the economics. And I said, well, you know, there's probably an ag economist at extension. He goes, what's that? Right? You know, and so I like, they need us, but, you know, we need them. They're the consumers. They are our consumers. And what I realize is like, these are our customers. This is our customer base. And how are we reaching them and how are we talking to them? And so you have these, the same, you know, people that determination and the grit, that's like, man, this is something I want to do and I want to stay here, you know, but I want to solve a problem, you know, And I do think that's part of. One of the things that has changed with. With GMOs for us, is that it's not. That it's not. It's not easy. It's just more efficient. And the stress has shifted some, you know, like, where is the stress of farming? It's maybe not in weed pressure anymore, you know what I mean? But now it's the fact that, like, that I have to pay an astronomical amount for this seed in order to use this chemical, and that's cutting into the cost of my production, you know, but what I'm seeing now is. And I'm not. Not say me. I mean, it's just what's happening is people are happening is they're like, okay, what are other alternatives? What else can I buy that's maybe not as expensive because I have to cut down on my expenses, you know. And so I guess, you know, to answer that question in a roundabout way is they really are the same kind of people. They really are the same. The people that I see here that still have the. What I would think of like the pioneering spirit, the Jeremy Browns, the Kyle Binghams, you know, the ones that are like thinking, you know, you know, Cliff Bingham, that they had a dry land crop this year that was like a bale and a half an acre on a dry land crop, you know, and no, they did not get any more rain than their neighbors did, you know, I mean, everybody says that, you know, and so I'm like that, wow. You know, figuring Something out, figuring something out. And that's what I think. People, especially, you know, after Covid, people are like, hey, I. I don't want to not have food. I don't want to not have food. And instead of us bringing the message to them to say, here's. We can be a part of your. The process of learning how to do this. You know, a lot of times, like, it does feel like we, you know, that's not real agriculture, you know, and what is real agriculture anymore is the question, you know, because it's not what my grandparents were doing. Right. You know, and it's getting back to that way, though.
• 35:20
  Speaker B: Yeah. You mentioned a family we're both familiar with, the Bingham family, which has a very long line of farmers out here in West Texas. What is it about them that for you, as you've worked with them, as you've worked with other farmers, what are some of the things about them that you wish you could see in other farmers or you could promote other farmers doing so?
• 35:42
  Speaker A: The first environmentalist wacko I knew was Betty. And now I think she is, like, not wacko. But, you know, they were the first people that, like, you know, I was like, oh, organics is bad. You know, it's gonna go away, and no one's gonna care. And I mean, to that point, there is a shift for certainly, you know, and. But people are. People still care, and maybe they're gonna call it something different. You know, regenerative is what people say now. Right. But there's. People care more, and their care and concern about what they eat is only going to grow. And that is not something that I. What I saw was Cliff cared less about what people thought about him and more about what was right for him and his family and his farm. And. And they have. They've worked hard for the respect that they have, you know, I know. You know, somebody has said, like, even in hemp, like, when they. When they got in, then people went, this could have potential because they had a proven track record of maybe everything didn't work that they've done, but they've tried more things than anybody else had, and they weren't afraid of how it looked. And I think that's the thing that I wish that I was more like them, you know, in that I cared less about what people think about me, because I worry about that a lot. You know, I worry about it because you walk a fine line, and I try to express, like, what it's like to be in the middle. And we. We've had this conversation on episodes before where, you know, I heard from the pulpit for years, the only thing in the middle is dead skunks and yellow stripes, you know, so you're either on the right side or the wrong side. And literally, you know, the guy that I, the cult that we were in, he would tell people, which, by the way, millions and millions of people attended these seminars, you know, but that he was like, where is, you know, Satan's the bad stuff? Is it the black? It's the black and also the gray, but also some of the white. So, like, Right. The fear of, like, even if it's good, it could be bad. Oh my gosh. You know, so, you know, I, you talk about like a fear of what people think about you, you know, and so this has been kind of a gutsy move for me, even though I do have a lot of gall. I feel like it's taken a lot of gall to do this thing, especially the podcast you. Because I don't want to isolate anyone. I want people to, to see that there is a path forward that isn't always mean dead bodies strewn on the side of the road. You know, like, you can make and, and you can make a difference one drop at a time. And. Because I can remember thinking, like, about, you know, like, recycling. What good does it do to recycle? And now we know, like, in some cases, no good. It did no good. It caused more problems. But you know what? The fact is that we all have microplastics in our blood. All of us, 97% of us do. There's a problem. And, and instead of being paralyzed or feeling like we have to tell people, you need to make a big change. It's like, one time I got a. I, you know, did a physical and they're like, oh, your cholesterol is a little high, so you need to exercise for 45 minutes seven days a week. I'm like, what the heck? I mean that. No, like, give me something legitimate, you know, Like, I, I, even if I had time for that, I would never do it, you know, and so I'm like, give me something that's like bite sized chunk. And that's what I think. It's like Cliff and Betty said there's, there's something we can do. I remember Betty one time making a big deal about her kissing the tomato and her hamburger. And I was like, one of her kids asked me one time, do you have Cheetos at your house? We were, I was not in elf food, you know, and now I look back and think, oh, My goodness. All these things that she was saying then, people are embraced now, you know, and we know them to be true and so far ahead of their time in some of these things. But they. They did it not always perfectly, you know, but. But they kept at it, you know, and in what. What Cliff did when we started growing hemp and they planted that first time, and it just. The stand was so, so. And he's like, we can do better. We can do better, and we're going to use our sesame plates on our planter now. He knew what to do, you know, and that's the kind of ingenuity and, you know, the spirit that. And so I realized, like, they were fundamentally very influent life in a way that I. I didn't. I didn't know that they would be.
• 40:37
  Speaker B: When you hit these barriers, these challenges, where do you draw inspiration from to allow you to keep doing the work and to move forward?
• 40:46
  Speaker A: You know what I have been, you know, when we first started, which was about a year or so ago, I mean, we really kind of spent a whole year just investigating. You know, let's go to all of these meetings, let's figure out what's being done. Let's try to find out who's doing what and. And what's working and what's not working. And, you know, there was. There was some pushback. Now, hardly any people care more than I gave them credit for, you know, and when you. You meet someone, I think too, like, for us, Nick, I'm sure you know, this. This is something I did not know. Okay, so we have T shirts that say people, Planet, profits, and we have a T shirt that says stewardship is a verb and it makes you responsible. It's a quote. Okay. Which, yes, we know, Doug, thank you, my husband, that stewardship is not actually a verb, but if you are, you know, a grammar or Nazi, just take it with a grain of salt. I. When he said what the real quote from Mike was, who the hell knows what sustainability means, but stewardship is a verb and it makes you responsible, you know, And I was like, where did that word come from? And so I just like, of course, Google, where did the word sustainability. I mean, why do we use this word? Well, it came from that triple. What do they call it? Triple line. Triple line economics, where you're looking at all three of those things. You're looking at, how is this going to impact people? How's it going, in fact, the planets and how is it going to impact profits? So it was created, like in the 90s and I wish I could remember. I'm sorry, I'm old.
• 42:23
  Speaker B: The triple bottom line.
• 42:24
  Speaker A: Thank you. That's it. The triple bottom line. Yeah. And so I think when you, you know, Doug and I are in the oil and gas industry, that's where we started. You know, Lacey is a quote unquote big farmer, you know, and so like, we are the people that a lot of times people in the environmental groups maybe or, you know, would tend to not, you know, but I think that I thought I would have more conflict, not conflict, but disagreement of like how things should work with people that are on the environmental side. That was surprising too. Of how many. Yeah, sure. There's still people that are on the fringe, but I wonder like, how many of these people were on the fringe, have come back around or like I'm just meeting them, but they are, they are concerned and a lot of times concerned about things they don't need to be concerned about. You know, they'd be, they just don't know, you know, and it's our, you know, something we can do to educate them. And so I think the biggest surprise to me is people, people know that these things, most people know these things need to happen. And I've been surprised at the people in the positions that really know it, you know, and, and really understand, but are, you know, also at a loss of what do we do, what do we do? You know, because I do think we are a society of, we don't think about, you know, long term projects as much anymore. You know, this is something we're going to start now. And, and then to Perry's credit, you know, like his water plan is, you know, 40 years, 80 years, you know, and, but that's, that's why you got.
• 44:01
  Speaker B: To look when you reflect on your journey as an advocate in conservation, what are some of the big milestones in that process?
• 44:10
  Speaker A: Definitely, of course, hemp. Meeting Trevor, getting exposed to some of those things, and then meeting Lacey, who is the founder of the Sandhills Area Research association, started about 20 years ago. And people can go back to that first episode where I interviewed her about it. You know, she and I, I mean, you, this is, this is the goal. Okay, Right. I, I knew the Vardamans had, were instrumental in the innovation in cotton harvesting. And so I saw her name on LinkedIn. I was like, I wonder if she's the same Vardaman. So of course, what did I do? But I, you know, messaged her and said, hey, would you guys, you know, and hemp and, you know, and she's like, I have no idea what you're talking about, but I'd be happy to help in any way I can. And then we randomly met through a short lived women's group ag thing that was here. And on that date we said, hey, let's go out and look at the hemp processing facility at Slayton. And we stood there and talked for three hours. Then I saw what was happening. The money, oh my goodness, the money that was pouring into agriculture and like going, is it going in the right direction? Is it not going in the right direction? And then I helped. I was working for contract for a company helping them consulting on hemp things. And they said, we got two weeks for this grant, it's due. Would you help? And never done a grant before. They had a grant writer, quote unquote. And yeah, it's a long story, but that was a $5 million grant. And then I helped with the SBIR grant, which is my second grant, which was one, miraculously one. And then I did a third grant and one. And you know, like I didn't know that I could write something I ever thought I would do, you know. And so I, I do use somebody with dyslexia. I do use a lot of Grammarly and a lot of chat gtp and although wasn't around when I wrote the first one, you know, and had to do budgets and put together economics and things that I, you know, more than anything, you know, I didn't know that I was building a career, but I knew that I probably was not the perfect fit for a landman job, you know, which is what I was doing for Doug. I'm really great at the negotiating part and I can find, don't. I can find anyone anywhere. I have found people that have been lost in nursing homes for five years. A guy who was living in a couch trailer. I mean, I have found folks that were lost. So I mean, I'm, I'm really good at research through those opportunities, you know. And then when all this came about, the, the money that was being invested, you know, through the RA and all this stuff, and I just reached out to Lacey and said, what's going to happen with all this? She said, well, I just got, I just got on this board, this Soul Water Conservation District. We know what this is. And I was like, yes, I do. We got involved there. And she was like, I really don't know what I'm supposed to be doing, but let's go to some of these meetings. And I was like, okay, so we started then we started going to the national association conservation district meetings. You know, we've just kind of stuck with it. And I knew originally working with Trevor that like there was a need, there's a need. I did not, I couldn't find an entity on our side of the state, especially in our area that was grassroots, that was holistically looking at our rural economy and the impact of the things that are happening in agriculture and what's going to happen in 30 years that was taking that holistic look that is grassroots from here, living here gonna have to be impacted by the consequences of that. And so we were like, you know, I think we could be, to use a phrase that's word that's really popular these days, efficient. We can be more, we can be more agile and more nimble. And so we saw what was happening in Oklahoma, we saw what was happening in places like Arkansas and we were like how can we bring those ideas here? You know and in particular like A1 Soil District Water conservation district in Oklahoma that has just been so good to us. And I've spent time with them, mentoring with them and they have a rural re lending program and millions of dollars that they are investing and low interest loans to rural communities. They're putting MRIs in hospitals and putting in dentist office and dance studios and little things that maybe you know, a bank isn't you know going to necessarily want to do and so, or you know, they just don't have their due to risk averse for that, you know, which is. It's fine. That's right. You know, but these are opportunities, you know. And so it's taken us a year and a half of pushing on that opportunity to now finally feel like the doors finally opening. And so you know that that's, I feel like another milestone. We've, you know, we had another I think milestone. We, we go to an oil and gas conference every year and that's focused on Permian Basin. And so we've made some really great allies in the oil and gas industry. You know, they have their own, you know, conservation, what they call sustainability folks in there and they have their own goals that they need to meet. And same with textiles. You know, in fact we just got an email from a very large popular brand yesterday. You know, and those people are looking for farmers and you are not. We're going to make changes based on relationships. And so the all of these, if you see the theme, it's people. All the milestones are people. I love people. I don't know that people can tell by the interviews I do. But just so people will know, like, I, I, like we were laughing about this earlier today. Like, I don't like to come in with a plan. No, no, let's don't have a list of questions. That makes me nervous. We're just gonna talk, you know. And so I love people and I, like, I want people to know about other people because that is the opportunities are always about people and they always. It's people that are the problem and people that are the solution, you know. And so every milestone is a person, you know. Like, I remember in Hemp, in my own career. What I see now is that I have been building a career for five years and I had no idea that that's what I was doing. But the first. One of the first people I met in hemp was Bill Timpani. And I know you remember him, Nick, and he came to Lubbock a couple of times and then hosted me in Canada. And Bill was the first. He owned the first company to digitize oil and gas data and sold that to IBM, then turned around and built like, several other fintech companies. He was like the millionaire next door. You would have no idea. And he would tell me, you know, we're going to be in, we're going to. You, you're good at this. I mean, he was my cheerleader telling me, hey, you have value doing this. And then, like, I remember one of the board members, Russell Williams, who is a great. I mean, I have so much respect for him. Russell was, you know, policy for American farm bureau in D.C. like, he is a smart guy and he was like, you're good at this. Like, like, like you're good at this. And that. It's interesting. Like, you know, it's. That is what I needed was come from, from men to say, because it was men that said you can't. And to have men say, you can. And, you know, and I'm not trying to bring up the politics of all the gender things that are happening right now. I'm just saying that that's my lived experience. My lived experience was, no, you can't. Here's your place. And then to have men come, I don't think that men understand the value that they bring to society by coming alongside women that need the confidence, you know, and there's so much that they can do, you know, that we need them to be advocates, you know, and because so many of them do see it. They see it, you know, and when you see it, say it, you know. And so unfortunately, we lost Bill A couple of years ago and I learned so much about business from him that I had. I mean, I didn't have, I mean I had farming background in the business from that and you know, but like just the startup knowledge that I learned from him was unbelievable, you know.
• 53:25
  Speaker B: And I don't disagree that sometimes it takes somebody from the outside to recognize our talent.
• 53:31
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 53:32
  Speaker B: To, for us to start believing in ourselves and the power that that can have. And you have achieved so much in the time that you've been involved and gone deeper and deeper and deeper into the community that surrounds conservation, not just here in the United States, but globally. And I'm curious, what are the things that get you excited about the future in conservation? What are things that you look forward to and reflect on?
• 54:00
  Speaker A: I think it has to do with people again, creating opportunities. One of the grants that we applied for and we got the grant, but we had to change our plan for the grant, which is so awkward. But it was a six weeks deep dive in conservation jobs. What are the jobs from. In semi arid and desert regions? Because I think a lot of times we look around us and think, who cares? It's ugly. And there ain't nothing, there ain't no trees to conserve. There's nothing here. You know, and so, and you don't know that there are people here doing work and that we're 100 employees short. Short in zone one for the NRCS. 100 employees, you know, and so then they're, they're the ones that are, you know, it's their job to put conservation on the ground, you know, but people, you know, there's people that would like to stay in these communities. We need them to know that these jobs are here, you know, and so this is like, hey, let's take, let's take 10 kids and let's spend six weeks and let's go from the wettest part of the Panhandle to the driest part of the Davis Mountains, you know, let's go into the Chihuahua Desert, you know. And that's what gets me excited is that I feel like what we're doing and especially through now, we have, we've got five AmeriCorps people with us. If, you know, we, I knew nothing about AmeriCorps till this. I just knew nothing about conservation efforts, but five AmeriCorps people that. And you know, one of them is a conservation planner and is about to put like a bunch of great like educational stuff on our website. We're really starting to beef that up. One has a background in Communications and marketing and produced water. So super excited, because do consumers know what produced water is? And you need to know, because guess what? It can become safe drinking water. It can become safe water for agriculture. Like, we need that. But. But nobody is picking up the torch to say, hey, consumers, this is what's coming. And we. What I don't want to see is people that want to end fossil fuels coming in and saying, this is bad, you know, and like, let's get ahead of this marketing opportunity, you know, and so what. What I'm looking forward to is partnering with. With those companies. Like, we partnered with Milestone Environmental Services on the, you know, to update. To raise awareness, to update the regulations or lack of regulations on energy waste, you know, and there were oil and gas companies that wanted that done because. And some didn't, you know, but. But for the most part, yes. They don't want people to think that they are falling to the lowest common denominator. You know. And so I think that's the things that I'm looking forward to is the projects that are ahead of us. This, you know, this opportunity that we have with NASA and being able to recruit farmers like to come on and say, you can have research with NASA. You get to have. The coolest thing about this whole program is it is starting with the farmers. It is not NASA coming and saying, we decided what research you need, and here it is. It is them saying, what do you need? You come together as a board and you figure it out. That is what I'm looking forward to is because that's how we will fund, you know, that's how we're going to fund the nonprofit Sandhills Area Research. We do it through creating these projects, and they are mutually beneficial. An industry needs them. They're going to pay someone to do it, pay us to do it, and then make a donation to us, and then we don't have to waste our time doing any kind of fundraising and hosting, you know, spending your time doing things that maybe are going to make you money, but they. They distract from the mission. So I. That's what I'm excited about, is I want to introduce the people that I'm meeting to this amazing part of the world.
• 58:15
  Speaker B: Tillery, that's all the time that we have today. Thank you so much for allowing me to be here with you.
• 58:20
  Speaker A: Thank you, Nick. I really appreciate it. When they were like, you need to get somebody to interview you, I was like, who would that be? Who would that be? I appreciate it, Nick. And I hope that you all stuck it out through this whole podcast. It's probably not nearly as exciting as, like, Robert Mace, who's hysterical. If you haven't listened to that one, you should go back and listen to it. So I'm not nearly as funny as Robert is. But thanks for tuning in. And Nick, thanks for being here. And friends, we are excited. Like, we're looking at the numbers of how many folks are listening, and it's so exciting to see the growing amount of people that are listening consistently. And you are. You're valuable to us and the reason that we're doing what we're doing. So would you take the time to like and share it? Because that is how we're going to reach more people. We will visit with you again on the next episode of Conservation Stories.