Latest / Beautifully Complex / 307: Valuing Personhood Over Productivity, with Shawna Rosenzweig

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307: Valuing Personhood Over Productivity, with Shawna Rosenzweig · Beautifully Complex

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: So in some ways, I think it has to do
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: with goals, right, both asking ourselves as the adults and
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: young people's lives, like what is our goal for this
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: young person, but hopefully also what is this young person's
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: goal for themselves? Right, and then recognizing there are multiple
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: pathways to get there.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back, everybody.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: I am so excited to be have any conversation today
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: with Shauna Rosenswag, who is the CEO of Campfire, which
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: we are going to learn all about in this conversation
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: as well, and we're going to talk about really prioritizing
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: personhood over productivity over performance, which in my opinion, is
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: a cultural shift that we need to be making for everyone,
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: but especially for our neurodivergent kids who struggle with finding
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: where they fit, who struggle with recognizing their authenticity or
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: feeling like they're safe to be their authentic selves. So
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: we're going to unpack some of these concepts and ideas
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: with Shauna, and I'm really excited to get into it.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: But Shauna, will you start by letting everybody know who
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: you are and what you do.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So thank you for having me today. So I'm SHAWNA. Rosenswag.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: I'm the CEO of Campfire and Campfire is an inclusive
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: youth development organization that connects young people to the outdoors,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: to others, and to themselves. And you know, I've really
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: grown up in youth development, right, both as a young
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: person who attended after school pro and day camps and
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: overnight camps, and that was how I thought you worked
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: with young people, right, And I just enjoyed being with
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: young people. And so that was my high school job,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: my college job, and I didn't realize I could make
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: a profession out of it, though, and so I saw
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: a lot of ways. I feel very fortunate that I
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: have had the opportunity to work for a number of
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: amazing organizations that really focus on supporting young people in
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: the out of.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: School time space.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: So that's really my area of interest and passion, and
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: I should add I'm also a parent of two young
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: people who are eight and ten. So when I'm not
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: in my role as CEO, i am very much in
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: my role as parent.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: Awesome such needed work in the world, and I always
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: love chatting with people who are really looking to help
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: our youth find their place and find their purpose. It
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: is more difficult, I think now than ever. Would you agree?
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: Slowly?
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you talk some about centering youth as whole people,
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: not just looking at them like students or performers or
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: a productive part of society. For people who are used
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: to though focusing on that productivity that process, like parents, Right,
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: we're looking for milestones for looking for our kids to
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: graduate and go to college, and all these things that
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: we've been taught are the only path, even though we
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: know they're not. How can we help people start to
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: shift that mindset from really thinking about the accomplishments to
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: thinking about the person as a whole.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: So the first thing that I always like to both
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: remind myself, you know, and others is you know, to
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: put ourselves in the in the vantage point of young people, right.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: And so I think it's very easy as adults to
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: think about young people through one lens based on where
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: they are, right, it has to do a school we
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: think of them solely as a student. If it has
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: to do with you know, young people at home, it
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: has to do with them as our child. And for
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: young people, their lives are a lot more fluid, right,
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: They're moving holy and holistically through those spaces, and I
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: think it's really important for us to remember that as well.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: So, you know, when I think about Campfire, and you know,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: many of our after school programs, young people are coming
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: to us from the school day. They are not necessarily saying,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: oh now I'm taking off my hat as student and
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: transitioning into my role as after school program participant. No, Right,
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: they are experiencing their days and their lives fully and holistically,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: and I think that's really important for us to remember
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: as well. Right, they are coming into whatever that space,
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: that transition between spaces, with the lived experience that they've
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: had that day.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: So you know, I often think about, you know, as
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: a parent, and it's so easy to fall into this,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: right thinking about them in those contents. So you're such
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: a hard worker or great job getting your homework done
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: on time, because those are the milestones, right, as you
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: named that we're working through in whatever that setting and
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: instead kind of thinking about, right, who is this young
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: person and who do we see them kind of remain
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: consistently or who are they trying on?
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: So much of youth development is them discovering who they
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: are right and developing their interests, their passions, their identities,
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: and so helping them recognize that right as they move
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: through different spaces and places, you know, and again so
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: often that is I think what's incredibly hard for us
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: and with all the societal pressures around us, but it's
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: space to just be right that. It's like those transition
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: times are actually in some ways the most beautiful because
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: they tend to be the least structured. Yeah right, Yeah,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: So giving them the space right to just be in
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: the car as they are transitioning, or to you know,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: be with their friends on the bus as they are
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: you know, coming to or from school, then in a
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: lot of ways, those.
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: Are where then developmental magic happens.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: They also can be you know, also some of the
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: riskier spaces, you know, teazing or bullying, but recognizing that
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: those are spaces really where young people can blossom and
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: recognize kind of who they are and who they want
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: to be among the peers and you know, the other
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: folks in their lives.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: We tend to overschedule our kids, and I think again
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: it's that mindset of giving them all the opportunities and
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: making sure they do all the things they're good at,
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: all the things, which I think is sometimes detrimental not
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: just for them, but for us too. Like if we're
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: over scheduled as the parent, it's also really difficult to
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: connect with our kids, to have that time and space
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: to really get to know them, and I think that's
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: so important in helping to guide them sort of. I
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: always think about like guiding them from afar almost because
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: we really want them to lead. Do you agree with
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: that that it's really important to give them that space
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: but also to follow where they're going in those times?
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: Absolutely? So.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: I think the both the voice and choice are kind
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: of the language we tend to use our programs in
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: terms of letting young people guide their experience. And I'll
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: give you a real world example where you know, I
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: found myself kind of caught in that moment, right And
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: so you know, this weekend, you know, my son had
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: a sports game and he was, you know, standing on
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: the sideline staring up towards the sky, you know, And
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: as a parent, I'm like, why.
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: Isn't he engaged?
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: Like, come on, how is he going to get playing time?
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: And and I could feel right like within me the
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: stress and the tension building, and it was an interesting
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: moment to pause and say, okay, like how would I
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: advise this in our programs? And one of the things
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: we often talk about, especially in outdoor settings, the opportunity
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: to look up right really helps you reregulate yourself.
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: And so maybe he.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: Needed in that moment that reregulation right, to be able
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: to kind of rebalance reset himself, and that was actually
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: very soothing and centering for him. He may not have
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: been stressed thinking why am I not plying whatever? He
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: may actually have been having a really nice moment to
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: kind of re establish himself in that setting, or to
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: be present in that setting, you know. And I'm the
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: parent on the sideline who's having the opposite experience.
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: Right, And again, I think.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: An opportunity to think about, Okay, how can I observe
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: the young people in my lives to let them lead
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: as opposed to when am I trying to steer right?
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: As opposed to how can I think about keeping them
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: on the road, you know, but some beering is okay, right,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: and responding to what they need in those various moments
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: I think can be really important and a lot of
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: times it is that that space to simply be right,
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: whether it's downtime or to decide how they're using their
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: free time, or yeah, to resist the urge to fill
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: every possible moment again looking for I think the breaks
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: and the transitions, even within the structured activities can be
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: incredibly important as well.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and how do we sort of strike that balance?
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: You know, as parents were driven by those outside voices
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: coming in that say this is the path to achievement,
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: this is the path to you know whatever, health and happiness.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: And then on the other side, we have a neurodivergent
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: kid who you know doesn't necessarily.
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: Not fit.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to use the word fit, but you know,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: they need a different path often, right, they need a
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: different journey. And it's really tough to separate ourselves from
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: those outside voices and really listen to what we know
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: about our kids and asking those questions, like noticing, like
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: you were just saying, maybe it's something else entirely right
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: now in this moment he's actually regulating himself so he
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: can be more invested in the game when he's back
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: in the game. Right, how do we get to a
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: mindset where we can start to notice those things and
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: ask those questions to really be able to steer away
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: from this productivity sort of attitude and perspective.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: So, in some ways, I think it has to do
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: with goals, right, both asking ourselves as you know, the
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: adults and young people's lives, like what is our goal
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: for this young person? But hopefully also what is this
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: young person's goal for themselves? Right, and then recognizing there
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: are multiple pathways to get there.
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: So, in many of our overnight camp settings, one of
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: the changes we made to the environment to the space, right,
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: Dining halls can be very overwhelming, right, They are sensory
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: overload for a number of reasons, you know, I think
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: top of the list being the volume in there can
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: be incredibly overwhelming. And part of what we had to
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: ask ourselves, you know, as a summer camp provider, is
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: what's the goal? Right, what's the goal of meal time?
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: And ultimately right, like if you were to ask me,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: it's about connection, right, It's about young people building connection
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: with each other, and then what are the pathways to
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: get there that it's not everyone having to eat in
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: a noisy dining hall together to build connection. That actually
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: there are multiple pathways, and so one of the changes
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: that we've made is making sure that there are alternative
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: eating spaces outside the dining hall that are quieter. And
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: again there's still opportunities to build connection, but there's a
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: different path to it. Right or again, we often see
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: you know, water used for team building activities right some
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: weeks where you know, water is much more prevalent again,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: can be from a sensory perspective very overwhelming.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: Very overloading.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: Are there ways to communicate and to create alternative pathways
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: towards the same goal that all young people have it
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: so like, what's the dry version of this activity? Right? Right,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: and ultimately still leads folks to feeling the same accomplishments,
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: the same connections. And again I think that has really
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: changed how we think about what an enriching activity looks
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: like or what the goal is. And also naming for
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: young people, what is it that they.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: Are looking to get out of this experience? Right?
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: And oftentimes right we hear it is maybe it is
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: the chance to just be with my friends or to
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: be in nature.
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Oftentimes for our older young people, it's the chance to
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: get off their phones right, and that in and of
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: itself feels very calming and recharging. And so thinking about again, like,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: both as the adults creating that space.
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: What's our goal for this young person and for.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: The young person, how can we be having that same
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: conversation and processing through what is their goal? Because I
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: think oftentimes when people surprise us in terms of what
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: we think their goal is and what their actual goal
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: is is not always the same.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: So yeah, we need to ask, we need to not
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: just make assumptions, but we need to also ask our kids,
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: what is your goal? What do you want to get
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: out of this? And I kind of I saw in
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: what you were saying sort of this three step process
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: that I think adults can use in questioning first what's
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: the goal of this? And you know, I learned to
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: do that as a parent of a NERD divergent kid
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: with school, especially in homework and things that were so challenging.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: What is the actual goal here? And can we even
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: accomplish it in the traditional way? You know, the goal
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: at school oftentimes is to have butts and seats, right,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: and they need to be present so that they can learn.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: But if you have a kid who's super dysregulated in
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: that environment and needs more breaks or needs something else
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: to help, they're not even learning when their butt is
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: in the seat. It doesn't even matter that they're there, right,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: So I learned early on like really ask what is
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: that high level goal and backup from there? But then
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: parents can also ask what's the pathway to get there?
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Like what you're outlining to me is really intentional, being
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: very purposeful right about what we are steering our kids
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: toward and how much we're letting them sort of guide
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: the ship as well. And then the third is are
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: there multiple pathways? So is there another way to do
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: this we get stuck in the way everybody else is
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: doing it, or what's you know, the neurotypical path or
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: what our culture says we should be doing. But there's
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: multiple pathways to everything, I think, And that's a really
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: key question.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: Right absolutely.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: And I think you know, whether as a parent or
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: you know, as an educator or whatever role again you're
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: playing in a young person's life, not always needing to
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: have all the answers, but you know, those questions you're naming,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: I think can be really helpful advocacy tools as well. Right,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: you know, I think about you know, a lot of
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: what we've been exploring at campfire right now is, you know,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: there's so much conversation around chronic apps andeeism, and we know, right,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: the two top reasons that young people are missing school,
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: and this.
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: Often is different from adults perception.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Of it is either illness or appointments. Right, a young
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: person has a medical appointment, they have counseling, right that
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: they're all scheduled during the same you know, six to
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: eight hours of the day, and you know, a lot
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: of I think the way attendance systems are structured, and
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: you know, the conversation around chronic absenteeism is putting the
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: blame on the young people. Right, you not get invite
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: into the you know, perfect attendance party because you had
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: to miss something's wrong with you, you were sick, you
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: you know, needed to meet with a therapist. And again,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: there is I think a complete reframe around that to say, okay, wait,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: how what are the alternate pathways?
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: What's the goal for the school?
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Is it the young people are learning and growing and
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: that they're you know, growing academically, emotionally, socially, you.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: Know, mentally.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Then if that's true, and I want to believe that
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: the vast majority of educators would say yes, absolutely, we
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: agree with that, then what are the other ways to
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: not punish the young people but build a supportive system
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: around them instead, to support them? And so again, I
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: think even keeping those questions in mind, you know, in
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: the moments where you don't have the answers, but how
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: can you use those to advocate, you know, with and
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: on behalf of the young people in your life, can
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: be a very powerful tool as well.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: And I hear you saying that in those environments, even
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: those really outcome driven environments like school, that there's so
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: many other factors to be focused on other than say,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: for instance, in school learning and grades and college preparedness
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: or test scores. Right, there's so many other aspects of
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: development that I think we ignore sometimes in those really
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: outcome driven environments that.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: We just need.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: Again, it's that it's at mindset shift, right though, we
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: started talking about in the very beginning year of looking
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: at that whole personhood instead of just the performance in
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: each environment. Can we talk a little bit, I want
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: to shift a little bit to belonging an identity because
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: this is such I think, a real struggle right now
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: for all of our youth, but it impacts neurodivergent kids
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: often even more so or more intensely. And you know,
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: I've come to believe or to recognize that when kids
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: feel seen, heard and understood, everything sort of changes for them.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: They build confidence, they feel capable, and they start showing
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: up in different ways, they connect in different ways. Just
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: really to me opens a lot of doors and windows
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: and sets a really strong foundation for success. But how
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: do we help our youth come to feel seen and
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: heard and understood and valued?
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: So I think the first piece is checking in with them, right,
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: like asking them not only how they are, but who
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: they are?
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: Right, what is it? You know?
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: And then again it's it's that paying attention piece, right,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: like what is it that is lighting them up inside?
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: Right? What are they interested in?
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: And you know, again I think often with you know,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: neurodiverging young people, those can show up more intensely, right,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: whether it becomes you know, more of an obsessive focus,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: but sometimes it's embracing that right, And you know, so
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: I think about, you know, one of my own kids. Right,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: it's the Beatles, right, it's music, and thinking about how
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: to utilize that interest and that passion to help him
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: understand who he is in the world, right, and how
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: that can be his gift, his passion right and help
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: him think about again not just his contribution, but see
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: value in himself because of that right. And so again
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: it's it often I think, especially you know in campfire programs,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: comes back to again like the voice and choice not
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: deciding for young people what it is they're doing, but
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: also the opportunity to explore and try new things right
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: and both pursue the things they are passionate about already.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: And I often like to say to the young people
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: that I work with and my own kids, like, you
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: can't care about something if you don't know about it.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: So I think it's also really important to have the
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: opportunities to be trying new things. And again this is
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: where kind of being very mindful of the praise and
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: how we're recognizing or slipping into the lens of productivity,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: because no one, including ourselves, right, is going to be
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: proficient in something first time they try it, and so
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: really looking for the opportunity in that to make failure fun, right,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: and to you know, find ways to try something new.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: So I coach basketball as my my side, my side
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: gig right as a hobby. And you know, fourth grade
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: girls are incredibly aware of what others are thinking of them, right,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: and their place in their blossoming social dynamics. And you know,
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: I found myself and actually my daughter was the one
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: to remind me of this. You know, she was like,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: you're pointing out what everyone else is doing well, but
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: not me. And it was, you know, a moment to
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: recognize that right, often those closest to you that you
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: are interacting with the most, you aren't necessarily as intentional
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: or as aware of how they're showing up in spaces.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: And again it was a moment also to think about, Okay,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: what is it that I'm I'm praising or recognizing as
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: a coach for all the young people on this team.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: And actually when I found like an intentional shift that
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: I made our last practice, and it was during those downtimes.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: So again that water break being that real moment for
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: connection for this team. It was finding silly things to recognize, right,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: like oh, so and so is the queen of the
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: water fountain, right, or like oh, the way, you you know,
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: like you failed beautifully in that moment, you know, and
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: making that safe and fun and okay, and everyone suddenly
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: wanted something that they didn't do perfectly. You know, it
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: was like help us recognize where we weren't perfect or
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: didn't feel the pressure to be perfect, And that totally
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: shifted the.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: Dynamic right among the group.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: And again, I feel like we're in a society the
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: people are constantly trying to be in the spotlight or
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: you know, in some cases avoid the spotlight, right, But
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: because trying to be perfectly productive in those space, giving
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: them the space to not only what we would probably
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: label is failing, but really to just try right, to
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: try things and not have to be perfect at it,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: but to just experience what can come the emotions that
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: can come of that experience being the priority.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: You mentioned perfection, and I think this is such a
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: tough driver. It shouldn't be a driver. But somehow, culturally,
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: I think we have landed there and perfection doesn't even exist.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: And so you know, I'm always thinking like we are
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: pushing our kids to achieve something that's impossible. It doesn't exist.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: They're always going to feel less than if we're giving
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: them a goals that aren't even achievable. And I think,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: you know, online media and social media and all these things,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: because everybody only shares their highlight reel, it's pushing that
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: dynamic unfortunately. But how do we help kids to shift
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: that belief that they need to be perfect into the
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: belief that really they just need to be themselves and
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: that's enough and that's great, not even enough, it's more
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: than enough. Where do we start with that?
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: So, in a lot of ways, I think it's it's
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: helping young people recognize their emotions, right, or recognizing how
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: they feel in their body.
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: What do you need in this moment? Right? So?
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as you're you know, if for some of our
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: older youth, as you're you know, scrolling.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: Through social media, what do you feel right now?
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Like?
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: What is the feeling in your body that you feel
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: in this moment?
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: Right? And I feel like.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: They often are the first to tell us like, this
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: doesn't feel good, right, Like I can feel the pressure
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: building and really I would love someone to process through
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: these feelings with right. So I guess and I think
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: asking the open ended questions, how do you feel right?
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: What do you need from me in this moment, What
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: would you know help you to feel safe and supported.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: That's a great place to start because so often, what
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: you know, I found that comes out of those conversations
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: with so many of the teens in our programs. It's
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: things like this isn't real and I know it's not real,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: but I also need someone to validate that feeling that
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: this isn't real for me, or hey, I need a
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: break from the screen. Can you please validate that that
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: is a normal feeling? And you know, another place to
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: start in addition to just those open ended questions is
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: also I think in modeling it in ourselves. Right are
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: we as we're playing with young people, are our phones
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: away or are we also checking at the same time,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: right as we're working on homework, you know, or to
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: encouraging a young person to finish their homework, it's like,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: come on, we gotta go, we gotta go, like get
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: this done so we can move on, or how are.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: We showing up in that moment?
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: You know? And so I think also not only asking
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: those open ended questions of the young people in our lives,
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: but also asking those questions of ourselves, like how am
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I feeling in my body right now? Like what emotions
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: are rising to the top for me? Okay, what do
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: I need to reset that? Right? And again, oftentimes those
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: tools to reset that we do have can be a
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: really enjoyable experience.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: So, one of my kiddos has one of those little,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: you know, breathing meditation lights. So when it, you know,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: is one color you breathe in and it's another color.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: You know, it's a little box breathing, right, And that's
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: a really enjoyable activity for both of us to do together. Right.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: We both recognize how it's changing the feelings with inside
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: our bodies and it's a really nice little bonding experience
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: for us as well. And so again thinking about those
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: opportunities to both be checking in with young people but
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: also checking in with ourselves and how we're modeling the
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: overload and overstimulation that can come from feeling pressure to
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: be perfect.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the way we show up sets the tone for everything.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: And I think, you know, we get so on autopilot
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: and we're just going through the motions and our kid
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: doesn't want to do homework, and so we're also grumpy
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: during that time and we're feeding each other. Right, we
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: really have to think about how we show up with kids,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: and how much that really impacts the ways that they
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: show up. When they show up and they don't want
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: to be there, they're grumpy or this or that. You know,
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: we have to recognize that maybe we had a part
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: to plan that, and maybe if we show up differently,
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: we can help them show up differently. It's really a
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: monumental shift that is such common sense, but we don't
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: think about it unless we think about it, right, It's
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: not something that really comes to the forefront of our
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: mind unless we're taught to do that. I think we're
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: teaching kids to do that more now, Like as you're
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: saying there's this light that helps them do a breathing exercise,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking, gosh, I wish there was that when my
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: kids were young. You know, my kids are young adults now.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: I wish we knew to teach them breathing exercises much
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: younger than when I learned it, because it is really powerful.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: So we are shifting that way, but we need a
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: whole lot more of it. I think I want to
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: give you some time to tell us more about Campfire
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: and the programs that your organization offers, and to be
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: able to address maybe you know, is this open for
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: neurodiversion kids, what age groups, what do you do, what
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: are the programs? All these things before we close, because
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: I think that there are a lot of parents listening
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: who could really benefit and their kids could benefit from
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: what you're doing there.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: So Campfire is one hundred and fifteen years old. So
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: we have been in the lives of young people for many,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: many years, and we were founded in the early nineteen
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: hundreds with the philosophy that at the time young women
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: were not having the opportunity to experience the outdoors the
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: same as young men were. Right at that point, boy
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Scouts was a very popular organization for young boys. Girl
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Scouts had not yet come over from England, and young
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: women didn't have the opportunity to get outdoors. And so
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: that orientation, I think, really established Campfire as an organization
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: that was always going to look for who historically has
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: been excluded from outdoor opportunities. And you know, we've now
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: since devolved that to our programs are both in for
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: or about the outdoors. So not every program is an
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: overnight camp right where you are experiencing the outdoors. Sometimes
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: it's an after school program in your school building, but
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: again really thinking about who historically has not felt welcomed
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: or that they belonged in again, whether it be after
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: school programs, day camps, overnight camp spaces, and that includes
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: nouro divergent young people as well. And so Campfire today
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: has forty four different affiliates that we call them in
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: twenty five states plus the DC area, serving over one
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: hundred thousand young people and their families each year. And
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: so during the school year, yeah, you can find us
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: in classrooms or on the playground. We have a partnership
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: with Playworks where we work to create a safe and
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: inclusive play during the recess time at schools as well,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: you can find us in many after school program settings,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: again both in the school building and outside of We
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: also offer a wide range of outdoor and environmental education programs,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: so again where a school or school district may bring
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: their fourth or fifth graders out to one of our
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: camp properties to experience the outdoors for the first time,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: and then during school breaks in the summer, a wide
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: range of day camps, summer learning programs, overnight programs as well.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: We also offer family camp programs where it's an opportunity
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: to as a family come and experience some camp programming,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: you know, to in the outdoors together. So I encourage
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: folks to explore those as well. Those can be a
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: great way to start to build some of the comfort
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: right for young people in our program So if if
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: you check out our website campfire dot org, that will
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: be a great starting place to discover where we have
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: locations and explore the different types of programs that Campfire offers.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: But if there's one thing that I think of when
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: I think of Campfire, yeah, it's a space for young
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: people to show up fully and holy as themselves.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: And you will find that.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, our programs are staffed with young adults and adults
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: that are trained professionals to prioritize exactly that, to prioritize
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: building connection with young people, and that's something we take
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: a lot of pride in love it.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: I will link that up in the show notes for
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: everybody to you, so you can go to PARENTINGADHD and
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: Autism dot com slash three zero seven for episode three
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: hundred and seven, and I will make sure that Campfire
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: is linked up for everyone there so that they can
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: connect and your social media will be linked up there
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: as well. And we encourage everyone to please check it out.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: I was so disappointed that I didn't even know Campfire
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: existed when I found out recently to have you on,
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: and I'm just so thankful that programs like that exist
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: that are really focused on helping kids discover themselves and
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: be themselves. It's so so important today. Thank you Shauna
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: for not only the work you're doing in the world,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: but for coming here and giving us some of your
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: time and your wisdom and your energy and your passion
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: for helping kids. I really appreciate it.
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: Likewise, thank you for all you do. I know I'm
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: a better parent because of it.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. I'll see everybody in the next episode.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: Take good care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share,
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: and don't forget to check out my online courses and
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: parent coaching at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: The Behavior Revolution dot com.