Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / The British Rock Invasion Of 1964 [Episode 274]

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The British Rock Invasion Of 1964 [Episode 274] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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  Speaker 1: On this episode of Book Don Rock, we explored the
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  Speaker 1: British Invasion of sixty four, how it all began, the
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  Speaker 1: iconic bands that rose to fame, and the lasting impact
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  Speaker 1: it had on rock and roll, film and fashion. That's
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  Speaker 1: coming up next.
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  Speaker 2: We're totally booming rock and roll. I mean, I'll leave you.
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  Speaker 2: You're reading.
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  Speaker 1: Little Hands says it's time to rock and roll, Rock,
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  Speaker 1: roll up.
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  Speaker 2: I totally booked.
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  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Book Don Rock. I'm Eric Sanitch is
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  Speaker 1: great to have you back. This episode's guest is Gene Popa,
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  Speaker 1: author of the book British Invasion sixty four, The year
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  Speaker 1: that changed rock and roll forever and man did it.
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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast, Geane, how you doing.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Eric, I'm thrilled to be here.
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  Speaker 1: You're right quote. By the last day of December nineteen
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  Speaker 1: sixty four, it was unfathomable to imagine what American pop
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  Speaker 1: music would be like without the British. The sounds and
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  Speaker 1: the fan bases of the two nations would become unified forevermore,
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  Speaker 1: and suddenly the world around us seemed to be in
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  Speaker 1: living color. At last, take us back to what the
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  Speaker 1: world was like heading into the year nineteen sixty four,
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  Speaker 1: just before the Beatles arrived. It's a world, as you say,
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  Speaker 1: that was black and white.
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  Speaker 2: If you were to go back to January first of
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  Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four, it was a very gray world. People
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  Speaker 2: were still mourning the death of John F. Kennedy. Music
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  Speaker 2: rock and roll just kind of seemed to be tamed.
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  Speaker 2: It had lost a lot of its edge. No one
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  Speaker 2: would have ever predicted that a British artist, a single
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  Speaker 2: British artist, could have had a major impact in the
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  Speaker 2: year ahead, much less a slew of them. And it
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  Speaker 2: goes to show you just the incredible impact of the
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  Speaker 2: invasion when it did hit. Nobody was expecting it, not
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  Speaker 2: even the Brits. It came out of nowhere. It came
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  Speaker 2: at the perfect time. It couldn't be replicated. It could
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  Speaker 2: have happened before or after. It had to happen at
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  Speaker 2: that moment in time.
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  Speaker 1: The popular narrative is that until the Beatles arrived, no
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  Speaker 1: British rock and artist had managed to make a dent
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  Speaker 1: on the American charts. But that's not true. There were
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  Speaker 1: UK rock who broke through in the years prior, but
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  Speaker 1: only briefly, and none with the impact of the Beatles. However,
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  Speaker 1: there was one artist you mentioned who had the potential,
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  Speaker 1: and that was Cliff Richard. He is I believe, the
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  Speaker 1: third top selling artist in the UK, only behind the Beatles.
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  Speaker 1: In Elvis talk about him and why do you think
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  Speaker 1: he wasn't able to have the same impact here in
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  Speaker 1: the US.
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  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, it's hard for people in America
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  Speaker 2: to realize the importance of Cliff Richard. If you were
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  Speaker 2: to go to Britain, he is as well known as
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  Speaker 2: any of the four Beatles. He has been a major
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  Speaker 2: star since nineteen fifty nine, still continuing to have top
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  Speaker 2: forty hits in Britain for reasons I can never fathom,
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  Speaker 2: other than two minor hits in the American top forty
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  Speaker 2: in the sixties. He could never break through to the
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  Speaker 2: American market in the sixties, and I don't know why,
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  Speaker 2: because he did some great music. If I had to
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  Speaker 2: equate him with any American artists that people might recognize,
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  Speaker 2: it would be Ricky Nelson, I said, similar styles. Everyone
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  Speaker 2: thought Cliff was going to be the one to break
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  Speaker 2: through in America, and he tried and tried, tried, and
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  Speaker 2: he just couldn't. By nineteen sixty three, he was throwing
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  Speaker 2: his hands up in the air and saying, we're never
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  Speaker 2: going to get it through over there. They have what
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  Speaker 2: they need and they don't need us.
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  Speaker 1: So still a mystery.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't until the seventies that he started having
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  Speaker 2: a couple of hits on the US charts, but he
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  Speaker 2: didn't last beyond that year in the US, and again
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  Speaker 2: he if anyone should have been a major star, it
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  Speaker 2: should have been Cliff Richard.
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  Speaker 1: How much influence did Kennedy's assassination in November of sixty
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  Speaker 1: three have on the British invasion in your opinion.
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  Speaker 2: It's hard to say specifically what the assassination meant in
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  Speaker 2: multiple levels, but clearly it had an impact and an
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  Speaker 2: existential impact, especially on young people. JFK was the president
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  Speaker 2: of Youth. Young people who were too young to even
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  Speaker 2: vote looked to him as their leader, and when he
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  Speaker 2: was killed, it was the most gut wrenching experience of
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  Speaker 2: their young lives and they had a void to fill.
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  Speaker 2: Nobody knew it was going to fill it, and certainly
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  Speaker 2: no one thought it was going to be some British guys.
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  Speaker 2: But you know, people were not for a severe loop
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  Speaker 2: with the assassination and things were uncertain for quite a
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  Speaker 2: long while after that, so it's not surprising that when
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  Speaker 2: people were stirred by the invasion they threw themselves into
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  Speaker 2: it wholeheartedly because they needed something to believe in again.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, seemed like a much needed release of emotion that
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  Speaker 1: the youth of this country must have had, and the
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  Speaker 1: Beatles were there to bring it out.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, And as I mentioned earlier, the invasion had to
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  Speaker 2: happen at that time, and it literally had to happen
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  Speaker 2: when the Beatles appeared on Sullivan in February the ninth.
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  Speaker 2: They'd have been there a week before or a week after.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know if their IMPACTU had been quite the same,
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  Speaker 2: but that was that perfect moment in time where everything
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  Speaker 2: just erupted.
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  Speaker 1: February ninth, nineteen sixty four, the legendary Beatles performance on
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  Speaker 1: ed Sullivan. Seventy three million people watched, which you'll never
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  Speaker 1: have that happen again. With all of the splintered choices
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  Speaker 1: that people have, streaming services, YouTube, Netflix, you name it,
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  Speaker 1: there's no way. I don't think you could ever capture
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  Speaker 1: that many people in one setting.
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  Speaker 2: I doubt it.
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  Speaker 1: Ed Sullivan happily told the story of how he first
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  Speaker 1: learned of the Beatles, how did he learn of them?
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  Speaker 1: And how much of what he told is good tale
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  Speaker 1: and how much was true.
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  Speaker 2: Edit's heart his story is truthful, but in Ed's telling,
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  Speaker 2: he happened to be in England in October. He had
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  Speaker 2: done a show there, which interesting enough, had Cliff Richard
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  Speaker 2: as one of his guests. And once it was over,
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  Speaker 2: he's flying back to New York and he was at
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  Speaker 2: the airport and there were about fifteen hundred teenage girls
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  Speaker 2: in the rooftop observation area screening, and he knew the
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  Speaker 2: British Prime Minister was at the airport that day, and
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  Speaker 2: he commented to an airport official. He said, I didn't
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  Speaker 2: realize the Prime Minister had this kind of a youth following.
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  Speaker 2: And the officials said, oh, no, they're for the Beatles.
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  Speaker 2: And Sullivan said, who the hell are the Beatles? And
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  Speaker 2: he said, they're the most popular pop group in all
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  Speaker 2: of Europe right now, and the girls go crazy for them.
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  Speaker 2: And as Sullivan tells, it, decided at that moment that, well,
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  Speaker 2: if they're that popular in Britain, I want to bring
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  Speaker 2: them to America and make them popular there. The fact
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  Speaker 2: of the matter is he had booked them several months earlier.
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  Speaker 2: He had a booking agent in London who had often
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  Speaker 2: sign various British acts to the Sullivan Show. Ed liked
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  Speaker 2: a lot of British acts, prickly comedians and some musical acts,
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  Speaker 2: and his booky agent rang them up and said, these
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  Speaker 2: boys are big over here and I think your audience
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  Speaker 2: would like them. So Ed signed them up. Beatles' manager
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  Speaker 2: Brian Epstein said, we don't want a lot of money
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  Speaker 2: for this, but we want three consecutive dates on the show,
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  Speaker 2: just like Elvis had. And for Ed Sullivan that was
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  Speaker 2: an easy give because even if they flopped on their
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  Speaker 2: first appearance, he didn't really have to show them the
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  Speaker 2: two weeks apt for that. He could have just paid
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  Speaker 2: them off and said we're not going to put you
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  Speaker 2: on the air Boys, sorry. But if they were a
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  Speaker 2: hit that first week, he had them for two more
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  Speaker 2: weeks afterwards, So it was a good gamble for Ed.
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  Speaker 1: Paul McCartney quoted in the book on the plane flight
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  Speaker 1: over to New York. Since America has always had everything,
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  Speaker 1: why should we be over there making money? They've got
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  Speaker 1: the wrong groups. What are we going to give them
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  Speaker 1: that they don't already have. What was it that they
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  Speaker 1: did give American audiences that they didn't already have or
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  Speaker 1: was it just right place, right time?
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  Speaker 2: In a real sense, they gave America their rock and
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  Speaker 2: roll back, because, as I mentioned, rock and roll by
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  Speaker 2: early sixty four had been tamed. It was the era
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  Speaker 2: of the teen idol. The major record labels did not
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  Speaker 2: allow wild men to be putting out records as they
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  Speaker 2: had in the fifties. So you weren't hearing Little Richard
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  Speaker 2: on the radio. You weren't hearing Jerry Lee Lewis. Even
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  Speaker 2: Elvis had the rough edges smoothed off him. He was
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  Speaker 2: making frothy movies and singing songs like rock a Hula
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  Speaker 2: Baby instead of Heartbreak Hotel. There was an entire demi
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  Speaker 2: generation of kids who didn't experience edwards of rock and
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  Speaker 2: roll firsthand, and all of a sudden, here come these
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  Speaker 2: guys who have not necessarily doing the music of the fifties.
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  Speaker 2: They had the energy, and they were playing a lot
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  Speaker 2: of rhythm blue songs that a lot of white kids
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  Speaker 2: in America weren't hearing, even though they were contemporary songs.
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  Speaker 2: But a lot of whit kids were listening to Motown
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  Speaker 2: in early sixty four. So what they brought to Americans
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  Speaker 2: was their own history, and they said, this is what
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  Speaker 2: you're giving up. You need to embrace this. It's understandable
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  Speaker 2: that on the flight over, Paul and all the Beatles
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  Speaker 2: were really terrified about making it in America. That had
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  Speaker 2: always been the goal. They always knew they were never
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  Speaker 2: truly going to be as successful as they thought they
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  Speaker 2: could beat unless they could be big in America. But
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  Speaker 2: nobody had been big in America yet from Britain, and
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  Speaker 2: they were deathly afraid that they were going to flop,
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  Speaker 2: and that was going to be their chance, and that
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  Speaker 2: was going to be the end of everything if they didn't
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  Speaker 2: make it.
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  Speaker 1: Talk about the impact radio had on rock and rolls
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  Speaker 1: emergents in the fifties here in the States, particularly Alan Freed,
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  Speaker 1: but in general, the jocks were left alone to play
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  Speaker 1: what they wanted, and with that comes huge exposure of
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  Speaker 1: this music the teens.
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  Speaker 2: Well. Alan Freed got his start playing an overnight show
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  Speaker 2: in Cleveland, where he loved to play rhythm and blues
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  Speaker 2: songs and the dirtier and the grungier the better. Now,
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  Speaker 2: his sponsors weren't too happy associated with rhythm and blues
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  Speaker 2: because that was considered race music and not for wide audiences.
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  Speaker 2: So Freed said, oh no, this isn't rhythm and blues,
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  Speaker 2: it's rock and roll. I said, oh, okay, that's fine. Then,
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  Speaker 2: so little branding change, and all of a sudden, he's
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  Speaker 2: got a hit radio show where high school kids were
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  Speaker 2: staying up long after bedtimes and listening to their radios
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  Speaker 2: because they cannot get enough of this music. And radio
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  Speaker 2: in much of the fifties was kind of like the
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  Speaker 2: Wild West. You had certain rules you had to follow,
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  Speaker 2: but within those parameters, DJs could pick whatever songs they want.
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  Speaker 2: They can get crazy on the microphone, and as a result,
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  Speaker 2: a lot of music that wouldn't ordinarily get picked up
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  Speaker 2: was getting played in major markets. You know, Sun Records,
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  Speaker 2: which was this little label out of Memphis, was suddenly
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  Speaker 2: getting radio stations in New York and LA playing their stuff.
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  Speaker 2: And that began to come to an end in the
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  Speaker 2: late fifties when the top forty format was set, meaning
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  Speaker 2: that your program director says, here are the forty songs
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  Speaker 2: we're going to play this month on the station. Don't
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  Speaker 2: deviate from this list. Well, there goes a lot of
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  Speaker 2: the small, grungier record labels.
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  Speaker 1: You're right. Quote when the Beatles first hit the shore
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  Speaker 1: in America, there were other boots on the ground right
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  Speaker 1: behind them. Among the big bands to emerge with the
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  Speaker 1: Dave Clark Five. And I know of them well because
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  Speaker 1: I'm a Van Halen fan, So I know Eddie van
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  Speaker 1: Halen wanted to make rock and roll music, not because
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  Speaker 1: of the Beatles, and not that he and his brother
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  Speaker 1: Alex were not fans of the Beatles, but there was
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  Speaker 1: something about the Dave Clark Five and that turned him
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  Speaker 1: on a rock and roll You say, a few artists
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  Speaker 1: mastered the business side of rock as well as Dave Clark,
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  Speaker 1: a true innovator. Talk about that.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think even Dave would admit he's not much
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  Speaker 2: of a musician. He can pound the drums, but even
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  Speaker 2: he would hire session drummers for the Dave Clark Five
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  Speaker 2: recording sessions. He was a businessman, a natural born businessman.
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  Speaker 2: He worked up a deal with the other band members
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  Speaker 2: where they were all on salary and he would get
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  Speaker 2: the lion's share of the money. He also their music
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  Speaker 2: publishing an a deal where any of the members of
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  Speaker 2: the band wrote a song, Dave would be co credited
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  Speaker 2: as co writer, so he covered himself very well there.
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  Speaker 2: But his best deal was the agreement that came to
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  Speaker 2: with their record label, which you know, they were doing
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: well in ballrooms and in clubs in the label, I
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  Speaker 2: think it was Columbia in Britain. I wanted to sign
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  Speaker 2: them and Dave said, no, we don't want you to
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  Speaker 2: sign us. Here's what we're going to do. We're going
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  Speaker 2: to record our own music and pay for it, and
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  Speaker 2: then you're gonna lease it from us, and then after
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  Speaker 2: ten years we're going to own all the masters. Well,
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  Speaker 2: label thought this was great. They said, we don't have
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  Speaker 2: to pay for their recording sessions. And in ten years,
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  Speaker 2: nobody's gonna want old rock and roll's. We could throw
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  Speaker 2: it in the garbage, nobody's gonna want it. And as
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  Speaker 2: a result, David Clark is a very, very very wealthy
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  Speaker 2: man today. Wow.
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  Speaker 1: Now let me ask you a question, because I did
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: an episode on the Zombies and they did the same thing.
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  Speaker 1: They leased their music, and that was their manager and
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  Speaker 1: I'm joining a blank on his name, but Dave Clark,
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  Speaker 1: he was the one making all the decisions.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, wow, So I wonder formal manager. So he had
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  Speaker 2: complete legal control over the band.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, I wonder if the Zombies got that idea from
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  Speaker 1: them or the Zombies manager, because it's exactly which is
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  Speaker 1: a brilliant move. If if your music stands the test
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  Speaker 1: of time, you then have publishing. You own the publishing
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  Speaker 1: to all those songs. Yep, smart move. Yeah. This episode's
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  Speaker 1: guest is Gene Polpe is the author of the book
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  Speaker 1: British Invasion sixty four, The Year that changed rock and
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  Speaker 1: Roll forever. Massive success of these bands like the Beatles
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  Speaker 1: and Dave Clark five got the Kinks to who the Stones.
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  Speaker 1: There was a lot of money to be made, but
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  Speaker 1: little of it was made by the bands themselves. How
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: were record labels divving up the money that came in
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: and why so little to the bands?
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  Speaker 2: Well, as they had their stacks of money on the table,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: occasionally a few coins that fall onto the floor and
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  Speaker 2: the recording artists could scramble for those. In Britain, the
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  Speaker 2: Beatles and most of the other recording artists received one
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  Speaker 2: penny per record sold. Man in the United States they
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: received one half of one penny. They that half of
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  Speaker 2: a penny and then their manager would get automatic twenty
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  Speaker 2: five percent, right out the top. Whatever was left was
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  Speaker 2: divvied up four ways by the other Beatles. So even
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  Speaker 2: though the Beatles sold twenty five million records in America
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  Speaker 2: alone in nineteen sixty four, they didn't make a whole
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  Speaker 2: lot of money from record sales. Now, John and Paul
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  Speaker 2: made a lot of money as songwriters because songwriters get
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: paid a lot more than the artists, and of course
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: the Beatles are making top dollar as a touring act,
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: so they were doing alright financially in those regards. But yeah,
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  Speaker 2: as far as record sales go, nobody was going to
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: be making bank off of that.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Booked on Rock Podcasts. We'll be back after this the Courton.
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  Speaker 1: We'll go up on macquo after our short intimation. Who
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  Speaker 1: was Herman Kennon and why was he a threat to
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: the British invasion?
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  Speaker 2: Herman Kennon was the president of the American Federation of Musicians.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: He was both a perceived threat but ultimately one of
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  Speaker 2: the greatest heroes of rock and roll. When he became
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: president of the Union in the fifties, he inherited a
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: problem with the British Musicians Union, and that was that
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: the BMU almost never allowed American musicians to play in
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  Speaker 2: Great Britain. Their argument was, you're taking paying work away
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: from British musicians by bringing Americans over. Now, there were
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: some exceptions. Louis Armstrong was always welcome. Singers like Sinatra
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: and Tony Bennett could always come and sing. Classical musicians
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: were welcomed as well, but jazz, country later rock artists
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  Speaker 2: no said you can't come here. It's very difficult to
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  Speaker 2: get any permission to get into the UK, and Kennon
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  Speaker 2: wanted to change that, but the British weren't interested at
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: all in making that change because I think a big
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  Speaker 2: part of it was also Britain had been the greatest
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  Speaker 2: empire in the world in the first half of the
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  Speaker 2: twentieth century. After World War Two, the United States took
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  Speaker 2: that over and I think for a lot of Britain's
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  Speaker 2: their pride was damaged. So I could see the BMU saying, no,
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  Speaker 2: we're going to keep this, this is still ours. We're
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  Speaker 2: going to have our musicians. We don't need ears. You've
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  Speaker 2: taken everything else from us. Anyway, Herman Kennon wanted to
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: break that lock, and he saw the British invasion as
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: the way he could finally do that. So he gave
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: an interview where he disparaged the Beatles near the British
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  Speaker 2: Acts and argued that the Beatles were essentially singers, they
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  Speaker 2: weren't musicians. He said that he has a great line.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: He says, we could find four kids from Yonkers or
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  Speaker 2: Tennessee who do the same thing they do. Good luck
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: with that. Wow. But he said, if they come back
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: in the United States, you're gonna have to leave their
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: instruments at home and just sing because we're not going
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  Speaker 2: to let them come play. And the BMU had no
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: problem with that because they were like, doesn't change what
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: we do here. Well, Kenan was very smart. He gave
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: that interview and it became a big news story and
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: a lot of young people were up in arms about this.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Now it was an election year. If you're under twenty one,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: you couldn't vote, but you could still exert pressure in
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: your own household on your parents. You could still write
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: letters to the editor, you could write to your congressman.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: And soon enough there were enough members of Congress were
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: concerned that this issue might somehow be used against them
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: in the election. They kicked up to the White House
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: where Lyndon Johnson was getting his own pressure from his
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: two teenage daughters who were Beatles fans, and now all
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: of a sudden, the Beatles and the other acts weren't
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: going to be allowed to tour in the United States.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: So he turned to a Secretary of Labor and said,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: fix this pronto. So the US and the British Musicians
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Union negotiated and at first the BMU was not willing
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: to budge, but they're feeling new pressures of their own.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: The head of EMI, Sir Joseph Lockwood, had many connections
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: with the British government and he began working those levers. Also,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: the British artists were selling a lot of records overseas
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: and making a lot of money for the British government
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: in taxes, and one of the investors in the Beatles'
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: merchandising arm was a member of a distant member of
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: the royal family, but he had connections with the crown.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: So all of a sudden, the BMU started getting a
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: lot of pressure they hadn't felt before, and very quickly
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: they changed their tune and said, okay, everybody's welcome, you
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: come to Britain, We'll go to America. Everybody's one big,
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: happy family.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: And we've got to talk about the Stones. I love
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: the Stones, so let's talk about the Rolling Stones. Their manager,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Andrew lug Oldham hyped them as the anti Beatles. Now
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: that was something that seemed to be okay with not
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: just the Stones but the Beatles too. They were happy
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: with that good boy, bad boy images that they were given.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Well, the Beatles loved the Stones. They had discovered them
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: when the Stones were doing a club residency in London
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: and they would go see their shows. And it was
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: actually George Harrison who recommended Dick Rowe, the president of
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Deco Records, you should really listen to these guys. You
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: might want to sign them. They're good. And of course
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: Dick Rowe was smarting because he had very famously turned
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: down the Beatles in nineteen sixty two and then his
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: letter he said, guitar groups are out, and yeah.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: He's the guy that signed the Zombies because of that.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: That's the story too. That was funny.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: He was getting so much grief over there. And so
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: you could say that the Stones could owe to the
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: Beatles that they got that recording contract. John and Paul
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: wrote a song for them that was their second hit
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: in Britain. I Want to be Your Man. Beatles later
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: covered on their second album that's.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: A cool piece of trivia there Stone Beatles trivia.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. And Edward Lugold had done work for the Beatles.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: He'd worked for Brian Epstein earlier in the Beatles' career,
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: and they were friends with him, and he came up
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: with this idea, says, you know, there's there's too many
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: bands that want to be the Beatles. We're gonna be
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: the Anti Beatles. Beatles are like, that's great, go with that.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: So they were more than happy to help perpetuate that notion.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: Interesting that the American musicians who shared an affinity with
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: British invaders were blues artists, right.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, blues artists who had been largely ignored by white
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: America during its entire existence. But in Britain, Howland Wolf
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: and Muddy Waters were gods to people like Eric Clapton.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: You know, these these middle class British white kids, and
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: somehow that music spoke to them. And when these kids
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: came to America and played that music, the American kids
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: were like, this is fantastic. And not only did they
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: discover the blues through x like the Rolling Stones and
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: the Yardbirds. But you started seeing blues artists appearing on
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: mainstream television. You know, they'd be on Hullabaloo and Shindig,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: which prior to the British invasion just you can't even
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: begin to imagine that happening. But by sixty five sixty
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: six there were very well known faces on TV.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: There was a time there where all those blues artists
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: would go to the UK and I think there was
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: a famous club or area. There was like an island
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: that they played in where they had a huge following,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: and that's where they could make their money.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: They definitely had an audience, and so did fifties American
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: artists like Chuck Berry and Carl Perkins, who didn't have
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: much of an audience in the US by the mid sixties,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: but in Britain they were still stars.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: The Beatles and Bob Dylan in the sixties. The mid
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: sixties particularly is fascinating. You talk about how Dylan deserves
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: study during this period of his career. We know how
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: much Dylan influenced the Beatles. They were big fans of
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: free Wheeling Bob Dylan. They there were pictures of them
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: with that album, and that's the album from sixty three.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: But what did Dylan think of the Beatles? Did the
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: Beatles influence Dylan to go back to his rock and
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: roll roots? Do you think? I mean he was in
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: rock bands before discovering folk music. What are your thoughts
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: on that?
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Actually, growing up, Bob Dylan's musical idol was Little
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Richard and he had played in a rock and roll
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: band in high school. He discovered folk when he went
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: to college and he fell into it hard. But by
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four, you know, Dylan was being hailed as
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: the voice of his generation, and he didn't like that
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: at all. He didn't want to be anybody's prophet or martyr,
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: and he was anxious to do something different. First all,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: he loved the Beatles. When first time he heard I
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Want to Hold Her Hand on the radio, he said
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: he just absolutely loved it, although he misheard it as
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: I Get high. And so when he first met the
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Beatles and he brought along some herbal remedy, he assumed
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: the Beatles were well versed in it, but they had
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: never had it before. Yeah, But he thought the Beatles
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: were great and they got along personally. So while they
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: had the similar vibe in their humor. But what really
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: pushed Dylan into rock and roll were the Animals because
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: they had recorded an old folk and blues tune called
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: House of the Rising Sun, which Dylan himself had recorded
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: on one of his first albums as an acoustic version.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: But when he heard the Animals do it, Dylan said,
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: I realized then and there this stuff can be electrified.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: And well it was right into adding electric guitars and
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: organs to his music.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: You're right quote. The American response to the British invasion
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: was a study in contrasts expected yet unpredictable, cautious yet bold,
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: routine and yet startling. All of it made for a
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: musical milange that resulted in a top forty radio listening
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: experience that was as eclectic as it ever had been
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: or perhaps ever would be again. And it really was
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: all over the map. Talk about the artists that had
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: success in nineteen sixty four amidst the British invasion. You
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: mentioned Motown earlier. Motown was huge.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Motown really broke free in nineteen sixty four. It was
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: coincidental but very fortuitous that Barry Gordy had planned to
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: do a big push for the label in the summer
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: of sixty four, he no longer just wanted to be
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: a top black record label. He wanted to be a
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: top label where both black and white kids were dancing
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: to their stuff. So he did a huge push and
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: he had Mary Wells hit number one. You know, he
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: had Smokey Robinson, the Miracles, he had Marvin Gay, the Temptations,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: and he had the Supremes. The Supremes nobody could predict
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: because they seemed to come out of nowhere and they
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: just started having number one hits left and right. They
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: were matching the Beatles with number one hits right and left.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: But we tend to think back down nineteen sixty four. Okay,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: you had Motown and you had all the British acts,
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: and that was pretty much it. Three of the biggest
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: stars on the charts in nineteen sixty four, all of
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: whom had number one hits, were Louis Armstrong, Dean Martin
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: and Bobby Vinton. In the midst of the British invasion,
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: they were still hitting number one again, which shows you
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: how electic the radio was at that time. You know,
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: you could turn on your top forty radio, but you'll
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: hear some Frank Sinatra and then you'll hear the Rolling Stones,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: and people didn't think that was strange. It was all
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: what was popular.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: That was really cool. That's like pirate radio too, pirate radio.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: The Beatles got a lot of exposure through pirate radio.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: I'm assuming they.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Did, yes, because the BBC had a lock on radio
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: in Britain and they would play rock and roll during
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: certain hours of the day, although that expanded throughout the
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: sixties because as it became the more predominant musical form,
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: their listeners were clamoring for more of it on the air.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: But you didn't have twenty four hour rock and roll
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: radio in Britain at that time. What you did have
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: were some entrepreneurs who got some ships and went out
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: beyond the border on the water and had a transmitter
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: and commandeered some radio waves and started broadcasting their own music,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: and they would play anything and everything. The pirate radio
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: stations were hugely influential. In the mid sixties. Sixty seven,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: the government had shut them down, but by that point
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: the BBC was really expanding their radio player rock and roll,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: so it kind of made up for the loss.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, kids would listen to their transistor radio as they
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: fell asleep at night, had it right there on the pillar,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: listened to pirate radio.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Since the fifties there have been Radio Luxembourg, which was
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: a radio station with enough wattage that at nighttime, if
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: the atmosphere conditions were right, you could hear it in
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: Britain and Paul McCartney's father hooked up an extra long
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: cord to a pair of headphones and would plug them
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: into the radio in the living room, and as Paul
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: would go to bed, he put the headphones on and
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: he could listen to the music as he drifted off
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: to sleep. And one of the things riarda Luxemburg did
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: was play recordings of Alan Fried's show, so Paul was
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: hearing and then the other Beatles were all hearing things
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: that you couldn't really hear anywhere else in Britain.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Booked on rock podcasts, We'll be back after this.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: They all drook Rose a future Bride.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: And the British invasion affected more than and just what
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: we heard on the radio. There were movies and television
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: series like Spy TV became huge talk about the British
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: invasion's influence on fashion and film and pop culture.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Well thanks to the music it seemed that all things
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: British became very, very popular in the United States. He
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: also had the James Bond movies, which were huge hits.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty four, Sean Connery was the number one
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: box office star in the world, and he started getting
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: some British shows like The Avengers and Secret Agent Man
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: being shown on American television in primetime, and design and
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: fashion was suddenly very important. You know, nobody thought of
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: London as anything other than a gray, stodgy old city
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: until about nineteen sixty five, when suddenly it became swing
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: in London and everybody wanted to know about the Carnabie
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: street fashions and what's the latest sound that's happening there.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: And you think about how the city on the other
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: side of the ocean was having such an impact in
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: every quarter of the United States. There were kids in
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Alabama or just gaga about what was happening in London.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: It's just amazing to think about.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: I mentioned before we started the episode. Closest thing that
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: I could experience that would be like that was the
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: early nineties, the grunge movement in Seattle. I mean, I
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: guess that's the closest and that's probably the last time
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: we've ever had that kind of a seismic shift in
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: not just music, but culture and the way people dressed
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: and all that.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: The thing is, you can't plan for it. Nobody planned
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: for grunge. The record industry had been trying for years
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: after the British invasion to repeat that with all sorts
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: of things, and they had success in terms of moving
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: some records, but nothing had the cultural impact of the
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: invasion until Grunge, which again nobody saw it coming.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: The signs of the British invasion slowing down came to
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: sometime like sixty six, maybe sixty seven. It had come
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: to an end. What do you think caused its decline?
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: Was it just something that ran its course or was
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: it overexposure?
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Well, I would actually say the British Invasion as we
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: tend to think of it, ended by about mid nineteen
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: sixty five. Most of the British artists who broke big
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: in the US and sixty four had the last of
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: their hits by that point, and a new wave of
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: artists were coming through and we're starting to have their hits.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: The Yardbirds, the Hollies, the ones who hadn't hit in
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: sixty four were starting to hit in sixty five and
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: sixty six, and music was changing. There was also the
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: realization that it no longer was the British music scene
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: and the American music scene. It truly had become mixed
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: together and it was just considered rock and roll as
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: a whole. So you no longer really did to differentiate
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: between this is a British invasion act. It just no,
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: it's just a rock and roll act.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: What's amazing is what music was like in the early
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: sixties and what it became by the end of the decade,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: two different worlds.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: People tend to think of the early pre Beatles sixties
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: as being a very bad time for music, but in
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: a lot of ways it was a golden age. I
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: mean you had Roy Orbison, you had all the great groups,
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: you had Solomon Burke, I mean, there's a lot of
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: great music on the air. What you didn't have was
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: the excitement of a fifties Elvis and the Beatles brought
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: that excitement. That is what changed things in ways people
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: hadn't been expecting. I mean, there were thoughts that rock
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: and roll was just going to fade away, and in
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: a lot of ways it was because it was expected
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: that young people would outgrow rock and roll, that, okay,
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: it's a kid thing. You're in high school, enjoy it.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: When you go to college, you pick up a serious
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: musical form, folk or jazz. Those were the two most popular,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: but after the British invasion, people kept listening to rock
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: and roll. I found a statistic that in nineteen sixty three,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: university bookstores that would sell records said that folk and
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: jazz accounted for something like eighty five percent of their
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: record sales, and by nineteen sixty six rock and roll
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: was ninety percent of their.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Record And Elvis, I think you mentioned in the book too,
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: Elvis he had when did you.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Come out of the arm What year? Nineteen sixty, yeah, sixty,
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: So he had changed. Well, Elvis came out of the
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: army a little more jaded with life. He was more
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: willing to just kind of go along with what his manager,
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Colonel Tom Parker told him to do. Colonel Tom said,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: we're gonna put you in these silly movies and you're
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: gonna get a paycheck for one million dollars for each
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: of them. Alis said, all right, I'll take that money,
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: and here's the soundtrack you're going to record, Okay, I'll
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: record these songs. Every now and then Elvis would kind
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: of slip the reins off and cut something that was
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: reminiscent of his fifties work, like Little Sister or Marie
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: a Name, which had real unbridled raw energy. But by
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: and large he was making music that sounded like Elvis,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: but wasn't the Elvis we knew back in the fifties.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: As we know, Elvis kind of drifted into a state
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: that he wasn't well served by.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and he met the Beatles, or the Beatles met him,
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: I think at Graceland and that might have been mid sixties.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: Maybe Actually they met in Los Angeles. Elvis was there
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: making a movie, right, Beatles were there tour, so they
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: set it up as a summit, and the Beatles came
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: to Elvis's place and all sorts of rumors. One of
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: them is that they all played monopoly, were using real money.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Paul says that did not happen. But the story goes
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: is that the Beatles came in and they were so
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: gobsmacked by seeing Elvis, I mean, he had been their
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: idol as kids. They just sat there quietly and they
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: weren't saying a word, and Elvis was sitting there, and
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: finally he got up and said, well, nobody's going to talk.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: I'm going to bed, And that broke the ice and
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: they spent the next couple of hours they were playing
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: pool with Elvis and his buddies in Memphis Mafia. They
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: were hanging out. They supposedly pulled some guitars out and
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: my god, if only somebody had turn a tape recorder off. Yeah.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they did a little jam session together.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a moment that had to happen. The
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Beatles had to meet Elvis. But it's a shame they
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: didn't meet in a place where Elvis would have been
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: more inclined to say, let's go in the studio, let's
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: cut something.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: I was just about to say that. Can you imagine
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: if they combined, collaborated on a song maybe, how would
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: that have affected the rest of the decade for Elvis?
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, change things? What if?
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: The what ifs? What do you think the British Invasion's
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: most lasting effect on rock and roll is?
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: Boy, that's a big question. Well, first of all, the
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: music that still lingers to this day. I joke that
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: people are born knowing the Beatles in their DNA. Even
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: if you say I'm not a fan of the Beatles,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: you know their music, and you know the music of
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: the Stones, and you can probably name a song by
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: the Who and by the Kinks. It continues to influence
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: music to this day. Virtually any big star at some
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: point will tell you, oh, yeah, there's this song that
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: I really like, and I try and do a song
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: that sounds like that, and it's a song from the
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: British Invasion. It also changed culture. We were a very
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: best to describe it, well, you look at the early sixties,
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: you look at America. Everybody was kind of the same.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: He dressed the same, conservative and haircuts, very conservative. And
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: if anything, the British Invasion said just be you grow
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: your hair along, wear what you want to wear, just
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: have fun.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: Be silly, like the Beatles had that silly sense of humor. Yep, yeah,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: I would say the music stands the test of time.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: Looking back at the styles, watching the old clips of
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: the Beatles or the films from those days, it's great
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: to look back on it in a nostalgic way, but
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: the music stands up. That's really to me. What really
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: is the ultimate proof that you know, the British Invasion.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: It didn't go away then, and it really never has
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: gone away because people still listen to that. I means
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: blow people's minds. The Beatles averaged two albums a year
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: and three standalone singles that weren't on any records.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Wow. We also did that while in sixty four and
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: sixty five making movies sixty four to sixty five, sixty six,
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: doing world tours and doing television appearances and basically not
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: having any time of their own. They were busy being
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Beatles all this time. You think of artists today, major
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: artists who you can go five years between album releases.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: British Invasion sixty four of the year that change rock
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: and roll forever can be found wherever books are sold.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Look forward at your nearest bookstore. You can go to
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: booked on rock dot com to find your nearest independent bookstore.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: So if you have one nearby, look for a copy there.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Where can people find you online?
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Gene Well on Facebook under gen popa author, And one
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: of these days I'll get my website up and running.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, people can release reach out to you
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: through Facebook. I'll put the link in the show notes page.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: And I look forward to having you back on again
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: because there's another book we want to talk about, and
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: it is all about the Beatles, correct.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: It is, and in a certain sense it's a bit
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: of a sequel to the British Invasion. All the focus
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: is entirely the Beatles, but it's sort of the second
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: act of the Beatles after the British Invasion.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I look forward to having you back for that.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Maybe sometime, you know, a few months from now, in
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: the summertime, we'll have you back on to talk about
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: that one. Thanks so much, Gene, Thank you Eric.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: That's it. It's in the books.