Latest / Q & A, Hosted by Jay Nordlinger / A Thinking Tenor

Transcript

A Thinking Tenor · Q & A, Hosted by Jay Nordlinger

0:00
SPEAKER_03: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Q&A.
0:02
SPEAKER_03: I'm Jay Nordlinger,
0:04
SPEAKER_03: and as regular listeners know,
0:06
SPEAKER_03: I spent much of last month at the Salzburg Festival in Austria.
0:10
SPEAKER_03: I do an annual job for the Salzburg Festival Society,
0:14
interviewing musicians and sometimes some artistic others in
0:18
front of an audience.
0:21
SPEAKER_03: This summer,
0:22
SPEAKER_03: a guest in our series was Julian Prégardien,
0:25
SPEAKER_03: a tenor from Germany,
0:27
SPEAKER_03: despite that French-sounding last name.
0:30
He is a leading lyric tenor and the son of another one,
0:34
Christophe Prégardien.
0:36
SPEAKER_03: This summer, Julian sang Mozart at the festival.
0:40
SPEAKER_03: He is a very interesting and thoughtful fellow with much to say.
0:45
SPEAKER_03: Julian Prégardien, I mean, although the same is true of Mozart.
0:50
SPEAKER_03: Maybe that's enough of an introduction from me.
0:53
SPEAKER_03: Let's get into it.
0:55
SPEAKER_03: Julian,
0:55
SPEAKER_03: we've had lots of singers in this series of ours,
0:58
and they usually say about Mozart that he is a true test of
1:02
singers for purity,
1:04
SPEAKER_03: for control,
1:05
SPEAKER_03: for understanding,
1:06
SPEAKER_03: and so on.
1:07
SPEAKER_03: Mozart is the grand test.
1:10
SPEAKER_03: I wonder if you agree with that.
1:14
SPEAKER_02: I was told the same.
1:17
And I think the challenge that comes with Mozart is that you
1:25
better follow his idea and not
1:30
SPEAKER_02: or not exaggerate your own idea about what you think is in the music.
1:36
So it's something that lies perfectly between subjectivity and
1:45
objectivity of expression.
1:47
So is it my expression or is it a expression that the composer
1:50
has put into music?
1:52
SPEAKER_02: and to, I would say, to serve.
1:56
SPEAKER_02: This idea is quite a challenge,
1:58
SPEAKER_02: both vocally and mentally,
1:59
SPEAKER_02: artistically,
2:01
SPEAKER_02: and as a human,
2:02
SPEAKER_02: because it's an act of generosity,
2:07
SPEAKER_02: and I would even say altruism to sing Mozart,
2:10
SPEAKER_02: because it's not about you.
2:11
SPEAKER_02: It's not about my emotion.
2:13
SPEAKER_02: It's about I am serving this idea of this great,
2:18
SPEAKER_02: people say genius,
2:19
SPEAKER_02: I would just say great human being.
2:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that's wonderfully put.
2:24
SPEAKER_03: You are a well-known Don Ottavio in Don Giovanni.
2:29
SPEAKER_03: And Ottavio has these two great arias.
2:32
SPEAKER_03: But people often say that it's a thankless role that Ottavio is weak.
2:39
SPEAKER_03: He's one of the less likable characters.
2:42
SPEAKER_03: How do you handle Ottavio?
2:44
SPEAKER_03: Do you like him and do you enjoy singing him?
2:46
SPEAKER_02: Well,
2:46
I would say the image of Don Ottavio shows a problem of our
2:53
modern society,
2:55
because that a supportive man is said to be weak is something
3:01
that we should have
3:02
SPEAKER_02: overcome in the 21st century,
3:04
SPEAKER_02: first of all.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: I think that a guy like Don Giovanni should not be adored, but really...
3:13
SPEAKER_02: reflected and put into order,
3:16
SPEAKER_02: because he is the bad guy,
3:18
SPEAKER_02: Don Ottavio is the good guy,
3:20
SPEAKER_02: and he is husband material,
3:24
SPEAKER_02: I would say,
3:25
SPEAKER_02: and Giovanni is the nice Sunday afternoon snack.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: So I think that,
3:34
SPEAKER_02: but as Mozart is so,
3:35
SPEAKER_02: and da Ponte as well,
3:36
SPEAKER_02: are so well in putting a mirror to society,
3:39
SPEAKER_02: they do exactly this,
3:41
SPEAKER_02: that Don Ottavio is not the star of the show,
3:45
SPEAKER_02: is...
3:47
SPEAKER_02: part of the concept,
3:48
SPEAKER_02: because he says to the public,
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SPEAKER_02: to the audience,
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SPEAKER_02: my dear friends from Vienna or Prague,
3:56
SPEAKER_02: where the two places where he first performed it,
3:59
SPEAKER_02: I bet you like Don Giovanni more than Otavio.
4:02
SPEAKER_02: You better think about that.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: So that's one side of it.
4:07
SPEAKER_02: The other part is more conceptual,
4:10
SPEAKER_02: that only a strong Donotavio,
4:14
SPEAKER_02: so only a stage director who understands Donotavio as a strong character,
4:19
SPEAKER_02: really understands the piece.
4:21
Because it needs this extreme of moral,
4:26
because moral doesn't have any weight for Giovanni.
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SPEAKER_02: He's a modern person.
4:34
SPEAKER_02: He is one that does not judge himself.
4:37
SPEAKER_02: He wants a legal process against the murderer of his father-in-law.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: He's a real modern character,
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SPEAKER_02: so ahead of the time of the aristocrats in the 18th century,
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SPEAKER_02: which were not yet modern.
4:50
SPEAKER_02: They were starting to be modern.
4:52
SPEAKER_02: So, as you see, I'm really fighting for this good guy.
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SPEAKER_02: This was the conceptual thing, and then comes something very personal.
5:03
I basically think that Dallas Wapache is one of the most
5:06
beautiful vocal pieces
5:08
SPEAKER_02: Mozart has ever written.
5:11
SPEAKER_03: I thought you were going to say anyone has ever composed.
5:19
SPEAKER_02: Speaking as a tenor, it's amongst the top ten.
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SPEAKER_02: And the other nine might be songs by Franz Schubert, but it's...
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SPEAKER_02: So, why would Mozart write this tender, loving lead, I would say?
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SPEAKER_02: It's almost not an area,
5:39
SPEAKER_02: because it's not virtuous,
5:41
SPEAKER_02: it's not showing off anything,
5:43
SPEAKER_02: there's no high note,
5:44
SPEAKER_02: no low note,
5:45
SPEAKER_02: it's just very challenging to sing,
5:46
SPEAKER_02: very intimate,
5:47
SPEAKER_02: he's alone on stage,
5:49
SPEAKER_02: and he's expressing his real inner feelings,
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SPEAKER_02: his love,
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SPEAKER_02: his belief,
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SPEAKER_02: and...
5:59
SPEAKER_02: So I think Mozart really honored this character.
6:04
SPEAKER_03: He must have thought well of Ottavio.
6:06
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
6:08
SPEAKER_03: Beautifully put.
6:10
SPEAKER_03: So, Monsieur Pregardien, do you have French ancestry?
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SPEAKER_02: Belgian, actually.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: And Italian and Dutch.
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SPEAKER_02: So I'm a true European.
6:24
SPEAKER_02: From the one side,
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SPEAKER_02: the Pregadian tribe comes from the region of Liège,
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SPEAKER_02: Namur,
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SPEAKER_02: in Wallonie,
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SPEAKER_02: with ancestors also in the Flemish part.
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SPEAKER_02: So for those who are interested in church music or early music,
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SPEAKER_02: one of our ancestors is Jan Peterson Zweling,
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SPEAKER_02: one of the great organ composers.
6:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
6:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, as Swielink, we Americans would say.
6:48
SPEAKER_02: So he's, one could say, the grandfather of J.S.
6:51
SPEAKER_02: Bach.
6:52
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
6:52
SPEAKER_02: Because he invented the northern German organ school.
6:57
SPEAKER_02: He initiated the way how organs would be built in the 17th century.
7:04
So this is one site,
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and then there's another site from my mother's site.
7:11
SPEAKER_02: Her maiden name is Kolberg.
7:15
SPEAKER_02: And Kolberg is actually a city in Eastern Prussia.
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SPEAKER_02: So the other part of my jeans, not these jeans, my jeans...
7:29
SPEAKER_02: is Polish, basically.
7:32
SPEAKER_02: Or today's Poland.
7:33
SPEAKER_02: And my grandfather,
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SPEAKER_02: Kolberg,
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SPEAKER_02: he came from there,
7:37
SPEAKER_02: and my grandmother came from Königsberg,
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SPEAKER_02: which is Gdansk.
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SPEAKER_02: So I'm quite a European mixture.
7:48
SPEAKER_03: Almost like an American as well.
7:49
SPEAKER_03: We're all mixtures, most of us.
7:51
SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
7:53
SPEAKER_03: And you grew up in Limburg.
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SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
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SPEAKER_03: Tell us a little about that town.
7:59
SPEAKER_03: Is it pretty?
8:00
SPEAKER_03: I bet it is.
8:02
SPEAKER_02: I think you should visit.
8:03
Everybody who listens to this podcast should come and visit
8:06
Limburg because it's a
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SPEAKER_02: part of true medieval Germany.
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SPEAKER_02: So many know Heidelberg or the famous like Rothenburg Obter Tauber,
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SPEAKER_02: for example,
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SPEAKER_02: which is,
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SPEAKER_02: I think,
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SPEAKER_02: in the States quite famous as a touristic goal.
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SPEAKER_02: Bamberg, yes, for example.
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SPEAKER_02: But Limburg...
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SPEAKER_02: gladly survived the Second World War,
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SPEAKER_02: the bombings,
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SPEAKER_02: due to a really big,
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SPEAKER_02: big luck because the wind in the night when the bombers marked the town,
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SPEAKER_02: there was a strong wind putting all the marks on one side of the city
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SPEAKER_02: behind the train station so that the old town with a beautiful cathedral,
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SPEAKER_02: with a beautiful Fachwerkhäuser,
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those wooden constructed houses that you find in Elsass and in
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central Germany,
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SPEAKER_02: it survived.
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SPEAKER_02: So it has a true...
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SPEAKER_02: medieval core of the old town.
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SPEAKER_02: That's also where my mom still is living and where I have an apartment,
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SPEAKER_02: a small apartment in one of those houses from the 15th century.
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SPEAKER_02: Did you say 15th century?
9:21
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
9:21
SPEAKER_02: Like 1400s?
9:22
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: So that's where I grew up.
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SPEAKER_02: It's kind of a fairy tale,
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SPEAKER_02: but not so pittoresque as you imagine some of the villages in Alsace,
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SPEAKER_02: for example.
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SPEAKER_02: Like Ribouville is one of those open museums, I would say.
9:41
SPEAKER_02: Lundberg is quite a vivid city,
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but it has a remaining old part and a beautiful Italian bar
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with my good friend
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SPEAKER_02: Walter.
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with a beautiful wine menu,
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and a very good French restaurant,
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and a good school.
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SPEAKER_02: Both church school and humanistic school.
10:01
SPEAKER_02: So I went to a boys' choir.
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SPEAKER_02: So I grew up singing every Sunday, church services.
10:08
SPEAKER_02: We're looking to several churches here in Salzburg while we're sitting.
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SPEAKER_02: And I grew up in this kind of Catholic church.
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SPEAKER_02: atmosphere.
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SPEAKER_02: Limburg is the head of the diocese.
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So the big cities of Wiesbaden,
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Frankfurt and so on,
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the churches are run by Limburg.
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SPEAKER_02: So Limburg is one of the centers of Catholic belief.
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SPEAKER_02: It used to be.
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We had a crazy bishop ten years ago who really damaged the
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image of the Catholic
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SPEAKER_02: Church in my region.
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SPEAKER_02: And I'm not a strong believer,
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SPEAKER_02: but it has shaped my region,
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SPEAKER_02: both culturally and,
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SPEAKER_02: of course,
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SPEAKER_02: musically.
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So I grew up with a lot of music,
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with Anton Bruckner,
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with Giovanni Palestrina,
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I traveled as a seven-year-old for the first time to Rome with
11:00
the boys' choir.
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I traveled to South Africa and to Finland and to Canada and to
11:07
Israel already as a kid.
11:11
SPEAKER_02: Not with my parents.
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SPEAKER_02: My parents traveled a lot as well because my father is a singer.
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But I experienced community and singing in a community from
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very early childhood on
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SPEAKER_02: in my beautiful small hometown called Limburg.
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SPEAKER_03: Did I read, Julian, that, and your grandfather?
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SPEAKER_02: My grandfather actually founded it.
11:32
SPEAKER_03: Ah, was that your grandfather Pregardien or the other one?
11:35
SPEAKER_02: Yes, the Pregardien grandfather, he was a merchant.
11:40
SPEAKER_02: He had only one leg,
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SPEAKER_02: he had an accident as a young man,
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SPEAKER_02: so he had a wooden leg,
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SPEAKER_02: a prothesis,
11:46
SPEAKER_02: and he was the perfect salesman for walking sticks.
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So that was his job and that's how he met my grandmother who
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was having a shop.
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SPEAKER_02: She came from Limburg,
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she had a shop for umbrellas and walking sticks that existed
12:01
back in the 50s.
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SPEAKER_02: And he was amateur singer and my grandmother was an amateur piano player,
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SPEAKER_02: just as my grandmother on my mom's side was an amateur piano player.
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SPEAKER_02: And my grandfather co-founded with the Domkapellmeister,
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SPEAKER_02: that is the head of music for the church.
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SPEAKER_02: They founded in 1967 in the Boys Choir at the Cathedral of Limburg.
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SPEAKER_02: and all male pregardians had to be part of it.
12:34
SPEAKER_02: So my father and his brother,
12:37
SPEAKER_02: they were founding members and my grandfather sang in the adult section,
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SPEAKER_02: so in the male choir section.
12:44
SPEAKER_03: Was your grandfather a tenor?
12:46
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
12:47
SPEAKER_02: And I'm so glad that he was because my father and me,
12:51
we will never argue who possesses the most beautiful tenor
12:56
voice because we agree
12:58
SPEAKER_02: it was his father,
12:59
SPEAKER_02: my grandfather,
12:59
SPEAKER_02: who had the most beautiful voice.
13:02
SPEAKER_03: And your father's brother also a tenor?
13:06
SPEAKER_02: I would say Klaus is rather baritonish.
13:10
But also,
13:10
honestly put,
13:12
both my father and me also have this baritonal tenor color.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: We're not like the typical early music, bright or French style of tenor.
13:24
SPEAKER_02: So we have more the lyrical voice.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: I think that Klaus,
13:30
SPEAKER_02: and I think you would agree,
13:32
SPEAKER_02: he would,
13:34
SPEAKER_02: if he had trained his voice,
13:36
SPEAKER_02: also have become something like a baritone maybe.
13:41
SPEAKER_03: And more family news, so to speak.
13:43
SPEAKER_03: You have a cousin who's a well-known soprano.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
13:47
SPEAKER_02: But she doesn't have the name.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: Lucky her because she never had to answer the questions.
13:51
SPEAKER_02: How is it to be the son of Christoph Priaglia?
13:54
SPEAKER_02: Her last name is Kleiter, Julia Kleiter.
13:58
SPEAKER_02: Amazing light lyric soprano.
14:00
SPEAKER_02: Now lyric soprano, she sings.
14:03
She has sung a lot of Mozart and then Strauss and now the
14:07
Wagner roles like Eva in
14:09
SPEAKER_02: Meistersinger,
14:09
SPEAKER_02: for example.
14:12
SPEAKER_02: Yes, she's my cousin.
14:16
SPEAKER_03: We have an old expression or thought that if you're a doctor,
14:19
SPEAKER_03: you don't operate on your own child.
14:22
SPEAKER_03: And I wonder whether your father taught you singing,
14:27
SPEAKER_03: or did he say,
14:29
SPEAKER_03: better give him to someone else?
14:31
SPEAKER_02: Both.
14:34
SPEAKER_02: So it was a process of gaining trust between each other,
14:44
SPEAKER_02: my way to become a singer,
14:45
SPEAKER_02: and also a process of emancipation.
14:50
SPEAKER_03: And I found out... Emancipation, you said?
14:52
SPEAKER_02: Emancipation, yes.
14:55
SPEAKER_02: And funny enough, the word...
14:57
SPEAKER_02: which means to flee from the hand of the father.
15:00
SPEAKER_02: That's the usual... I never knew that.
15:03
That's the Latin...
15:05
As they say on social media,
15:06
I was today years old when I learned that.
15:09
SPEAKER_03: That's extremely interesting.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: So I had to...
15:17
SPEAKER_02: First,
15:18
SPEAKER_02: trust my father that he would let me,
15:22
SPEAKER_02: and he introduced me to some voice teachers,
15:28
SPEAKER_02: and I didn't follow any of his advice,
15:32
SPEAKER_02: and found my own way,
15:33
SPEAKER_02: but he let me.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: which was super important,
15:37
SPEAKER_02: that he didn't insist on influencing my path as a young singer,
15:44
SPEAKER_02: because I didn't want to,
15:46
SPEAKER_02: honestly.
15:48
SPEAKER_02: And by this...
15:50
today we can have the healthiest relationship that you can
15:54
possibly have as a
15:56
father and son tenor and we can share the stage and be proud of
16:00
each other and
16:02
SPEAKER_02: share beautiful experiences because he was smart and strong enough
16:08
SPEAKER_02: to overcome his own ego,
16:11
SPEAKER_02: to not influence me too much,
16:13
SPEAKER_02: knowing,
16:14
SPEAKER_02: I think,
16:17
subconsciously knowing that his influence on me had been huge
16:23
already because he
16:24
SPEAKER_02: was my one and only idol as a singer.
16:26
SPEAKER_02: He still is.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: So while learning from the same guy...
16:30
SPEAKER_03: That's a good choice,
16:31
SPEAKER_03: by the way,
16:31
SPEAKER_03: whether you're related to him or not.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: So I can't escape...
16:38
SPEAKER_02: So the best way was to study somewhere else,
16:42
SPEAKER_02: make my own thoughts,
16:44
SPEAKER_02: and yet remain like a lot of my,
16:49
SPEAKER_02: I would say,
16:50
SPEAKER_02: corporate identity is pre-gardien.
16:53
SPEAKER_02: And another part is Julian.
16:55
And I discovered the Julian part on my own and can combine it
17:00
now through this with
17:01
SPEAKER_02: the pre-gardien part so that it makes a Julian pre-gardien.
17:05
SPEAKER_03: It was somewhat daring to become a professional tenor,
17:08
SPEAKER_03: I would think,
17:08
SPEAKER_03: because,
17:09
SPEAKER_03: you know,
17:09
SPEAKER_03: Christophe Brigadier is regarded as one of the great lyric tenors ever.
17:15
SPEAKER_03: And here comes Julian, living up to the standard.
17:20
SPEAKER_03: And I just wonder whether, was Wunderlich a very big deal to your dad?
17:27
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
17:29
Actually,
17:29
I think if you imagine that my father started in the 70s,
17:34
Wunderlich died in 66.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: So there was the memory of Wunderlich.
17:40
SPEAKER_02: But the world of classical music in Germany was suffering from this loss.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:48
SPEAKER_02: And...
17:50
SPEAKER_02: And there was,
17:52
SPEAKER_02: maybe also this is,
17:53
SPEAKER_02: like now thinking of it,
17:54
SPEAKER_02: maybe also this is the reason why two baritones,
17:59
SPEAKER_02: Fischer-Diesgaard and Hermann Brey,
18:00
SPEAKER_02: could become so incredibly famous because there was no counterpart.
18:05
SPEAKER_02: Wunderlich had disappeared and his legacy is still huge.
18:10
And then there was Peter Schreier who was forming a different
18:14
kind of legacy with a
18:15
SPEAKER_02: totally different approach to singing
18:18
like coming from a boys choir and being very,
18:21
I would say,
18:22
protestantic in his waiting.
18:27
SPEAKER_02: So my father had,
18:29
SPEAKER_02: in his generation,
18:30
SPEAKER_02: his whole generation,
18:32
SPEAKER_02: was like longing for the next Wunderlich.
18:37
SPEAKER_02: And when I started singing, I remember...
18:41
a comment by the first Intendant that hired me,
18:46
the Director of Opera Frankfurt,
18:47
Bernd Loebel.
18:49
SPEAKER_02: And when I sat in the very first meeting,
18:52
I was 25 years old and we were discussing the contract and then
18:59
he said a word
19:00
SPEAKER_02: which is,
19:01
SPEAKER_02: yes,
19:01
SPEAKER_02: we'll start like this,
19:02
SPEAKER_02: now this,
19:02
SPEAKER_02: we can of course renegotiate.
19:05
SPEAKER_02: He said this word by word in the year of 2009.
19:10
So,
19:12
I am not Fritz Wunderlich,
19:14
I have never been,
19:14
and my father neither,
19:20
I think.
19:21
SPEAKER_02: Each of you is his own man.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: And I think everybody should be led by the critiques,
19:29
SPEAKER_02: by the system,
19:30
SPEAKER_02: let's say,
19:31
SPEAKER_02: to develop his own qualities.
19:34
SPEAKER_02: there are idols that are huge.
19:36
SPEAKER_02: For the baritones there are many, I name it, Tom Hampson, Brinterwell.
19:42
SPEAKER_02: For the sopranos there are huge idols,
19:45
SPEAKER_02: name it in the US,
19:45
SPEAKER_02: Jenny Fleming for example,
19:47
SPEAKER_02: or Barbara Bonny,
19:48
SPEAKER_02: a great Mozart singer.
19:51
SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to name drop now the many, many idols.
19:55
I think it's maybe a misunderstanding of our system of
19:59
classical music that we
20:01
SPEAKER_02: think we have to match up with those idols.
20:03
SPEAKER_02: Every artist has his or her time,
20:07
SPEAKER_02: and it's the greatest gift that you can give to a young musician,
20:10
SPEAKER_02: a young artist,
20:11
SPEAKER_02: to not compare him.
20:13
SPEAKER_02: Comparison is the dead of creativity.
20:17
SPEAKER_02: The dead.
20:19
So I think that we all would do better,
20:23
we all,
20:24
including me,
20:26
to not compare.
20:27
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
20:29
SPEAKER_03: What does Shakespeare say?
20:30
SPEAKER_03: Comparisons are odorous, a malapropism.
20:37
I wonder when you were growing up in the children's choir with
20:40
your Pergolesi and
20:42
SPEAKER_03: Bach and Schutz,
20:44
SPEAKER_03: did you listen to pop music?
20:46
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
20:48
SPEAKER_03: You liked it?
20:48
SPEAKER_03: Did you sing it?
20:49
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
20:50
SPEAKER_02: Even privately or with your friends?
20:51
SPEAKER_02: Yes, totally.
20:52
SPEAKER_02: I bet you were good at it.
20:54
SPEAKER_02: I can't tell if I was good.
20:56
SPEAKER_02: Maybe my mom can, so there was...
21:01
SPEAKER_02: So I was born in 1984.
21:04
SPEAKER_02: So at home there was,
21:05
SPEAKER_02: for example,
21:06
SPEAKER_02: German pop like Udo Lindenberg or Herbert Grönemeyer or Gianna Nanini,
21:12
SPEAKER_02: like Italo pop that my parents listened to.
21:15
I'm just going to tell the podcast audience that here in the
21:19
live audience I see
21:20
SPEAKER_03: German and Austrian heads nodding.
21:23
SPEAKER_03: These are well-known names.
21:25
And then there was this Irish band called The Kelly Family that
21:30
was huge in the 90s.
21:31
And we heard it when we traveled to our summer vacations,
21:36
mostly to Denmark.
21:38
SPEAKER_02: We would listen to Kelly Family albums and I would sing along.
21:41
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I wish I'd be an angel.
21:46
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes.
21:48
SPEAKER_03: Sounds so idiomatic, right?
21:52
SPEAKER_02: And it's Irish.
21:56
SPEAKER_02: And then the big boy groups came.
21:59
SPEAKER_02: I don't mean the Beatles or the Rolling Stones, but...
22:05
My generation was influenced by the Backstreet Boys and NSYNC
22:08
and caught in the act
22:10
SPEAKER_02: and take that,
22:11
SPEAKER_02: of course.
22:15
SPEAKER_03: Justin Timberlake is in there somewhere, right?
22:17
SPEAKER_02: She was NSYNC, I think.
22:20
SPEAKER_02: If I'm not mistaken.
22:21
SPEAKER_02: Talented guy.
22:22
SPEAKER_02: No, he wasn't NSYNC.
22:25
SPEAKER_02: This is Google-able.
22:27
SPEAKER_02: Yes, please.
22:28
SPEAKER_02: Teach me.
22:30
And for example,
22:32
the hymn of my last year of school,
22:38
we call it Abitur Jahrgang.
22:39
So the last year of high school,
22:41
we do our final exams,
22:42
which are called Abitur,
22:44
when you're 18.
22:45
SPEAKER_02: And our hymn was Backstreet Boys Never Forget.
22:50
SPEAKER_02: Always take that.
22:51
SPEAKER_02: No, it's Backstreet Boys.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: Never forget where you're coming from.
22:57
SPEAKER_02: Never pretend it's so real.
23:03
SPEAKER_02: And we all sang it and it's, yes.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: Turned into a tribute to Limburg.
23:08
SPEAKER_02: Faces in between,
23:09
SPEAKER_02: when I was like 14 to 16,
23:11
SPEAKER_02: when also influenced by the group of friends I was at,
23:15
SPEAKER_02: we listened to Nirvana,
23:16
SPEAKER_02: for example.
23:17
SPEAKER_02: and more like grunge.
23:20
And so Kurt Cobain,
23:22
one of the most famous artists ever,
23:26
also had his influence on me.
23:30
SPEAKER_03: In a recital, for example, as an encore, do you ever sing a pop song?
23:37
SPEAKER_02: I sang recently The Rose.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: Some say love, it is a river.
23:46
SPEAKER_02: That's Bette Midler, no?
23:47
SPEAKER_03: I'm not sure.
23:49
SPEAKER_03: She certainly sang it.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: I don't know where it comes from.
23:53
And also what I sang or what I will sing in the next Beethoven
23:57
anniversary,
23:59
SPEAKER_02: 2027,
23:59
SPEAKER_02: because the last 2020 fell through some crisis.
24:06
SPEAKER_02: Something happened.
24:07
So in 2027,
24:07
I'm very much looking forward that I'm allowed to create a
24:11
multinational program
24:14
SPEAKER_02: under the name of From a Distance,
24:17
this famous Bette Midler song that we combine with An die Ferne
24:22
Geliebte by Ludwig
24:24
SPEAKER_02: van Beethoven.
24:25
And I will co-curate this program with members of the Said
24:29
Academy in Berlin,
24:30
Dani Barenboim's
24:32
SPEAKER_02: and their professor, Yael Karet, an Israeli pianist.
24:37
SPEAKER_02: And we make a program about what does it mean, distance?
24:43
What does it mean to be longing for your home country or for
24:47
the ones that you left behind?
24:50
SPEAKER_02: because of your own life decisions,
24:51
SPEAKER_02: like I go and study music in Germany,
24:54
SPEAKER_02: or because I had to flee,
24:55
SPEAKER_02: because there's war.
24:58
SPEAKER_02: And so we make a journey through 200 years of reasons for distance.
25:05
SPEAKER_03: I'm just going to tell our English-speaking audience,
25:07
SPEAKER_03: our podcast audience,
25:08
SPEAKER_03: that the Beethoven cycle is to a distant beloved in English.
25:13
SPEAKER_02: And so...
25:17
SPEAKER_02: And I even co-founded a festival two years ago that is called Liedstadt,
25:25
SPEAKER_02: could be translated as the City of Song,
25:29
SPEAKER_02: where we want to communicate,
25:32
SPEAKER_02: we are good at comparing,
25:34
SPEAKER_02: or judging,
25:36
SPEAKER_02: I would even say,
25:37
SPEAKER_02: and we are also very good in putting categories.
25:41
SPEAKER_02: I think it's a very Western thing,
25:44
SPEAKER_02: Western European cultural thing or American thing as well.
25:47
SPEAKER_02: You belong in this category.
25:48
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
25:49
SPEAKER_02: And this is how classical music was defined.
25:54
SPEAKER_02: That's the serious part of music business.
25:57
SPEAKER_02: It's not the entertainment part.
25:59
SPEAKER_02: We even have the differences in the German broadcasting stations.
26:04
SPEAKER_02: They are either for Ernstmusik,
26:07
SPEAKER_02: serious music,
26:08
SPEAKER_02: or Unterhaltungsmusik,
26:09
SPEAKER_02: which is entertaining music.
26:11
SPEAKER_02: And there's different systems for the funding of the music.
26:14
SPEAKER_03: But the serious music can be so entertaining.
26:16
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
26:16
SPEAKER_02: And the entertaining music can be so serious.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
26:19
SPEAKER_02: So this festival that I co-founded with a good friend, two good friends.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: One is Kian Yazdi.
26:25
SPEAKER_02: His father came from Iran.
26:29
And the other co-founder is Kate Pizzaroni,
26:33
the daughter of Thomas Hampson.
26:36
SPEAKER_02: And...
26:37
SPEAKER_02: We say that a song is a lyric,
26:41
SPEAKER_02: is a chanson,
26:42
SPEAKER_02: is a whatever,
26:46
SPEAKER_02: and that what matters is the emotion and not the category.
26:53
SPEAKER_03: Toward the end of her recital career,
26:55
SPEAKER_03: Marilyn Horne would sometimes sing as an encore,
26:58
SPEAKER_03: a bridge over troubled walls.
26:59
SPEAKER_03: She turned it into an art song, but I quite liked it.
27:06
SPEAKER_03: Julian,
27:06
SPEAKER_03: could you please tell us about this good friend of yours,
27:10
SPEAKER_03: this man with whom you've had a lifelong relationship,
27:13
SPEAKER_03: Jay Bach.
27:15
SPEAKER_03: And what is he to you?
27:23
SPEAKER_02: A miracle.
27:29
SPEAKER_02: And now, why?
27:31
SPEAKER_02: So...
27:37
SPEAKER_02: It's hard to explain, honestly.
27:40
SPEAKER_03: Miracles can be hard.
27:42
SPEAKER_03: I had a piano teacher who said he was just a gift from God.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: I think maybe this is a huge quality of his,
27:50
SPEAKER_02: that he as a giver all his life,
27:54
SPEAKER_02: it was never about him.
27:56
SPEAKER_02: Soli Deo Gloria, that's how he signed most of his music.
28:02
SPEAKER_02: And the...
28:07
The buildings he can construct with his music are both human
28:14
and celestial.
28:17
SPEAKER_02: They are Christian and beyond,
28:22
so they speak a much grander language than either the
28:27
Protestant or the Catholic
28:28
SPEAKER_02: belief could ever picture,
28:32
SPEAKER_02: in my opinion.
28:34
SPEAKER_02: So he's a true human and it shines through his, of course, his
28:40
SPEAKER_02: his Protestant influence,
28:43
SPEAKER_02: he's a Lutheranian,
28:45
SPEAKER_02: but then he tried,
28:48
SPEAKER_02: when he wrote his B minor Mass,
28:51
SPEAKER_02: he was hoping to get a job with a Catholic court in Dresden.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: So it was not,
28:59
and this is also what unites many of the grand composers that
29:04
don't belong to a
29:04
SPEAKER_02: category,
29:05
SPEAKER_02: there we are again,
29:08
SPEAKER_02: that they are incredibly generous as human beings.
29:15
SPEAKER_02: With their skills,
29:17
SPEAKER_02: Johann Sebastian Bach would consider himself as a craftsman,
29:20
SPEAKER_02: never as an artist.
29:22
He is a true craftsman and he serves with all his skills the
29:29
praise of something
29:30
SPEAKER_02: greater than himself.
29:33
SPEAKER_02: And...
29:35
SPEAKER_02: So,
29:37
SPEAKER_02: and of course,
29:38
SPEAKER_02: there's a very specific part of his repertoire that is the dearest to me,
29:45
SPEAKER_02: which are the two passions after St.
29:47
SPEAKER_02: John and St.
29:48
SPEAKER_02: Matthew.
29:50
SPEAKER_02: And there,
29:52
SPEAKER_02: especially in the role of the evangelist,
29:57
SPEAKER_02: because the way he can write recitative is unique.
30:02
SPEAKER_02: in music history.
30:04
SPEAKER_02: It's the way how he transports only by a soul voice,
30:14
SPEAKER_02: which is also not a real male voice,
30:16
SPEAKER_02: because the evangelist and the passions...
30:20
SPEAKER_02: has a tessitura,
30:22
SPEAKER_02: which is the region where the voice sits,
30:24
SPEAKER_02: that is almost androgen,
30:26
SPEAKER_02: I would say.
30:27
SPEAKER_02: So it lies perfectly between the male and the female region.
30:32
SPEAKER_03: Is it difficult, Julian, to say?
30:33
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes.
30:35
SPEAKER_02: Very.
30:36
SPEAKER_02: It's very difficult, technically, but once you have overcome...
30:39
SPEAKER_02: The fear of, I've counted the high notes that evangelist St.
30:46
SPEAKER_02: Matthew has to sing,
30:48
SPEAKER_02: it's stressful if you think of it,
30:52
SPEAKER_02: but if you serve with all your skills as a craftsman,
30:58
SPEAKER_02: you find your way through it.
31:01
So this role of evangelist,
31:03
with only his voice and this small band called Basso Continuo,
31:11
SPEAKER_02: He delivers a story of love,
31:15
SPEAKER_02: of hate,
31:17
SPEAKER_02: of mistrust,
31:18
SPEAKER_02: of trust,
31:20
SPEAKER_02: of betrayal,
31:21
SPEAKER_02: of all the aspects of the human nature.
31:26
SPEAKER_02: in such a direct,
31:31
SPEAKER_02: beautiful,
31:33
SPEAKER_02: sometimes even melodic,
31:35
SPEAKER_02: even belkantistic way,
31:37
SPEAKER_02: that every time I'm allowed to sing St.
31:41
SPEAKER_02: John's or St.
31:42
SPEAKER_02: Matthew's,
31:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm like,
31:43
SPEAKER_02: wow,
31:45
I'm the most thankful of all that I'm allowed to share this
31:49
with the public.
31:51
SPEAKER_03: Do you know every word of those passions, every note?
31:55
SPEAKER_03: I'm sure for everybody, I'm sure.
31:58
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
31:58
SPEAKER_02: Of course, of course.
31:59
SPEAKER_02: And also the B minor mass.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: I can sing from the first chord, Kyrie, to the last in my heart.
32:06
SPEAKER_02: You'll never be bored.
32:07
SPEAKER_02: No, no.
32:09
SPEAKER_02: My head is so full of music that I don't need any Spotify.
32:14
SPEAKER_02: LAUGHTER
32:16
SPEAKER_03: Well,
32:16
SPEAKER_03: I was thinking of you and your friend Franz Schubert,
32:19
SPEAKER_03: and I wanted to say to you that when I was growing up,
32:24
SPEAKER_03: I was thinking of Schubert's two great song cycles,
32:27
SPEAKER_03: Schöne-Müllerin and Winterheise,
32:29
SPEAKER_03: Winter's Journey,
32:30
SPEAKER_03: and it was generally thought,
32:33
SPEAKER_03: I think,
32:33
SPEAKER_03: when I was growing up,
32:35
SPEAKER_03: that the first was for a higher voice,
32:37
SPEAKER_03: a tenor,
32:38
SPEAKER_03: and the second,
32:39
SPEAKER_03: Winterheise,
32:39
SPEAKER_03: for a lower voice.
32:42
SPEAKER_03: And then later, I heard every type sing both,
32:47
SPEAKER_03: is sopranos, for example.
32:49
Initially,
32:49
that was a little weird to me,
32:51
to my ear,
32:51
but one gets used to it.
32:53
SPEAKER_03: I heard a wonderful Winterreise sung by Christine Schaefer, for example.
33:00
SPEAKER_03: So talk about that a bit, if you like.
33:02
SPEAKER_02: Yes, gladly.
33:04
So,
33:05
first of all,
33:08
it's an epochal misunderstanding that Winterreise was set for a
33:16
middle voice.
33:17
SPEAKER_02: It was not.
33:19
SPEAKER_02: It became famous through lower voices.
33:24
SPEAKER_03: I feel like it's Hans Hatter's fault.
33:27
SPEAKER_02: Yes, all was Hans Hutter's fault.
33:29
SPEAKER_03: Everyone loved Hutter.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: No, it's a fault of the 20th century.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: It's a true fault, in my opinion.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: Because the music was written for a high tenor voice.
33:44
SPEAKER_02: The first tenor who sang...
33:46
SPEAKER_02: Fremd bin ich eingezogen,
33:48
it was the one song that was performed publicly through
33:52
Schubert's Lifetime,
33:54
SPEAKER_02: was Ludwig Tietze,
33:57
SPEAKER_02: and not Baron von Schönstein,
34:00
SPEAKER_02: he dedicated Schöne Müllerin to a baritone,
34:02
SPEAKER_02: by the way.
34:03
SPEAKER_02: So Ludwig Tietze was the same tenor that also sang Nachthelle.
34:09
SPEAKER_02: Nachthelle is a B-flat major song that sits awkwardly high.
34:16
SPEAKER_02: It starts on high F. Die Nacht ist heißer und ist rein.
34:23
And it all sits very awkwardly in this passage going to the
34:28
high B flat all the time.
34:30
That's the voice that sang the first song for the first time
34:32
publicly,
34:32
a light high tenor voice.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: And the original keys that Schubert,
34:40
SPEAKER_02: that you can still see in his manuscript,
34:43
SPEAKER_02: are higher than the first edition.
34:46
SPEAKER_02: The reason is that the editor said to Franz,
34:51
SPEAKER_02: dear Franz,
34:53
SPEAKER_02: if we,
34:55
SPEAKER_02: me,
34:56
SPEAKER_02: if I,
34:57
SPEAKER_02: the publisher,
34:57
SPEAKER_02: want to sell your music,
35:01
SPEAKER_02: you have to put them in other keys,
35:03
SPEAKER_02: because no one can sing this music.
35:05
If nobody possesses the high A,
35:08
an amateur who was the typical buyer of the music...
35:11
SPEAKER_02: cannot sing in high A. It's trained voices can't sing.
35:16
SPEAKER_03: This was before Spotify.
35:18
SPEAKER_02: So people bought music, sang it or played it at home.
35:22
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
35:23
So he transposed five of the songs that were sitting awkwardly
35:27
high with high A's.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: For example,
35:31
SPEAKER_02: Wasserflut,
35:32
SPEAKER_02: which is now set in E minor and has a high G,
35:35
SPEAKER_02: which is already quite high.
35:37
which was initially put in F-sharp minor,
35:41
which is also an awkward and very symbolic key.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: And this is just one example.
35:47
And the other example,
35:48
which is even more daring as a composer,
35:51
der Leiermann.
35:53
SPEAKER_02: The last song of Winterreise,
35:55
SPEAKER_02: when we hear it,
35:57
SPEAKER_02: we hear the song before,
35:59
SPEAKER_02: which is in Ebensonnen,
36:00
SPEAKER_02: in A major,
36:02
SPEAKER_02: in the high clef.
36:04
SPEAKER_02: And then,
36:04
SPEAKER_02: this is typical for Schubert,
36:06
SPEAKER_02: that he turns the major third into the minor third,
36:09
SPEAKER_02: that he plays a lot with major and minor,
36:12
SPEAKER_02: with light and shadow.
36:13
SPEAKER_02: And we have this image of resignation, that A major turns into A minor.
36:20
SPEAKER_02: But the thing is,
36:21
it's a misinterpretation because Schubert never thought that
36:24
the last song should
36:25
SPEAKER_02: be in A minor.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: He puts it in B minor.
36:29
Der Leiermann is written in B minor in the original key and
36:32
goes until the high G.
36:33
SPEAKER_03: Which is often thought to be a tragic key.
36:36
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
36:36
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
36:38
SPEAKER_02: for Schubert,
36:40
SPEAKER_02: it's the key of Der Doppelgänger,
36:43
SPEAKER_02: for example,
36:44
SPEAKER_02: in Schwanengesang,
36:45
SPEAKER_02: in a really creepy song.
36:47
SPEAKER_02: It's the key of Die Unvollendete,
36:50
SPEAKER_02: The Unfinished Symphony,
36:51
SPEAKER_02: which is really...
36:53
SPEAKER_02: It's fighting against fate.
36:55
SPEAKER_02: It's the opposite of resignation.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: And Mozart,
37:00
SPEAKER_02: you can look into Mozart's oeuvre,
37:02
I think you can find one piece in B minor because he was afraid
37:06
of that key.
37:07
SPEAKER_02: It was like a creepy key.
37:12
So Winterreise was set for a skilled voice that possesses a low
37:21
A and a high A.
37:27
SPEAKER_02: And...
37:29
SPEAKER_02: And then comes the next point.
37:33
SPEAKER_02: If you are lucky enough to experience once in your lifetime,
37:38
SPEAKER_02: the sound of a fortepiano,
37:41
SPEAKER_02: of an original Hammerklavier from that time,
37:45
SPEAKER_02: either by Anton Walter,
37:47
SPEAKER_02: the one that Beethoven played a lot,
37:50
SPEAKER_02: or by Konrad Graf,
37:52
SPEAKER_02: that was in the circle of friends of Schubert.
37:55
SPEAKER_02: One of his friends had a Graf piano at home.
37:59
If you hear this instrument and then imagine an operatic
38:04
baritone voice of today
38:06
SPEAKER_02: who sings Winterreise,
38:08
SPEAKER_02: it's something that does not blend.
38:11
The way how voices today are trained,
38:15
sometimes,
38:15
not always,
38:16
to sing Schubert songs,
38:19
SPEAKER_02: doesn't match with the original sound.
38:21
SPEAKER_02: Not at all.
38:22
SPEAKER_02: Not at all.
38:25
SPEAKER_02: And I don't say it's wrong.
38:26
It's just there has been a development of style,
38:30
of aesthetics,
38:31
of piano building.
38:34
SPEAKER_02: But I think it's very interesting if you want to refer to anything
38:40
SPEAKER_02: It's so helpful to read the sources,
38:44
SPEAKER_02: to really go back to how it was meant to be imagined,
38:49
SPEAKER_02: what was the source of inspiration for the composer.
38:53
SPEAKER_02: That sound in the living room with this wooden instrument that has,
38:57
SPEAKER_02: and when he writes a triple F for TCCC more,
39:02
SPEAKER_02: It's like the instrument is always bursting, really.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: It's painful.
39:08
SPEAKER_02: And a modern,
39:09
SPEAKER_02: let's name it Steinway Grant,
39:12
SPEAKER_02: he smiles at a fortissimo by Franz Schubert because he says,
39:16
SPEAKER_02: I was built to play Rachmaninoff.
39:18
SPEAKER_02: What do you want, Schubert?
39:20
So this is something that is very important to me and I was
39:25
yesterday lucky enough
39:27
to be guest for a private occasion in the house where Nicolas
39:32
Hanonkur lived,
39:34
SPEAKER_02: where his family is still living.
39:36
and together with my father I gave a private concert for the
39:39
family because they
39:41
have restored a beautiful original instrument by Anton Walter
39:46
and the location we
39:47
were invited or we shared a beautiful evening with friends and
39:53
once again I was
39:54
witnessing also for myself and for our group of friends we were
39:58
35 maybe 40 people
40:01
SPEAKER_02: In the living room,
40:03
SPEAKER_02: like where it was born,
40:05
SPEAKER_02: the genesis of Schubert's song is exactly this social setup.
40:12
SPEAKER_03: Julian, here's one that's slightly controversial, not really, but...
40:18
SPEAKER_03: We live in a visual age.
40:20
I was thinking of this this morning when thinking about our
40:23
talk together.
40:25
SPEAKER_03: People demand, people expect the visual now.
40:30
SPEAKER_03: I remember when I was,
40:31
SPEAKER_03: I can't remember how old I was,
40:32
SPEAKER_03: I think it was the 80s that MTV came in in America.
40:36
And so it wasn't enough to hear a record,
40:38
as we used to say,
40:39
there was a video.
40:41
SPEAKER_03: And people like to see.
40:44
And more and more I find that oratorios and even song cycles
40:48
are being staged.
40:51
SPEAKER_03: I don't especially like it.
40:52
SPEAKER_03: I acknowledge that I'm a bit of a dinosaur.
40:55
SPEAKER_03: And they can be staged very well, in fact.
40:58
SPEAKER_03: And staging can be an enhancement.
41:00
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes I think a detraction.
41:05
SPEAKER_03: So I guess my personal answer would be the boring, it depends.
41:09
SPEAKER_03: It all depends.
41:09
SPEAKER_03: But I wonder whether what you think of this,
41:12
I'll call it a trend of staging things that to some of us have
41:20
been purely musical.
41:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very good topic, very intelligently moderated.
41:29
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Jay.
41:30
SPEAKER_03: I was trying to be polite, but I really mean it.
41:33
SPEAKER_03: There are some excellent stagings of these.
41:36
SPEAKER_03: I do mean it, but yeah.
41:40
SPEAKER_02: I will talk from my own experience.
41:49
SPEAKER_02: When I sing a recital, let's say Die schöne Müllerin,
41:57
I don't think that I can deliver the emotional outburst of that
42:05
young man by only
42:07
standing in a beautiful suit in this famous curve of the grand
42:11
piano holding one
42:12
SPEAKER_02: hand at the piano.
42:15
SPEAKER_02: I don't believe that this works.
42:17
SPEAKER_02: If you have this optics of a well-dressed man,
42:24
SPEAKER_02: and then he's talking about killing himself,
42:28
SPEAKER_02: and he's talking about his longing for the Schöne-Müllerin,
42:33
SPEAKER_02: I want to listen to it,
42:36
SPEAKER_02: but I also want to see some of it,
42:39
SPEAKER_02: let's say.
42:40
SPEAKER_02: So that's the first thought.
42:43
SPEAKER_02: But then it's the question,
42:45
SPEAKER_02: does it need a staging for that or just the allowance to,
42:51
SPEAKER_02: let's call it acting?
42:54
SPEAKER_03: Move around at least.
42:55
SPEAKER_02: Move around at least a little bit.
42:57
SPEAKER_02: So are we damned as we were?
43:00
SPEAKER_02: I was taught at university that giving a result is a serious thing.
43:05
SPEAKER_02: that I should wear something appropriate,
43:09
SPEAKER_02: like a black suit or even tails,
43:11
and that I should stand there in this famous curve of the
43:15
Steinway Grand in black
43:17
SPEAKER_02: and honor this art form of artsong.
43:22
SPEAKER_02: And I think this is one way...
43:32
this genre of music can be presented to the public of our
43:38
Western culture,
43:39
SPEAKER_02: which is the second half of the 19th century.
43:42
SPEAKER_02: When culture was suddenly,
43:45
SPEAKER_02: not suddenly,
43:46
it was a development in terms of French Revolution and many
43:49
democratic things in
43:50
SPEAKER_02: Europe and all over the world,
43:54
SPEAKER_02: that the bourgeoisie,
44:00
SPEAKER_02: let's say,
44:01
SPEAKER_02: in short,
44:02
SPEAKER_02: they wanted to define themselves,
44:04
SPEAKER_02: they wanted to define their culture,
44:06
SPEAKER_02: they wanted to define...
44:08
SPEAKER_02: What is our culture in,
44:12
SPEAKER_02: first of all,
44:13
SPEAKER_02: in a non-aristocratic way,
44:15
SPEAKER_02: but by incorporating many of the aristocrat,
44:21
SPEAKER_02: I would say,
44:23
SPEAKER_02: rites,
44:23
SPEAKER_02: rituals?
44:25
SPEAKER_02: and also to differentiate the educated people from the folk.
44:33
SPEAKER_02: And the recital hits right in there.
44:37
The form of a vocal recital on a concert stage has been created
44:41
in the second half
44:42
SPEAKER_02: of 19th century,
44:43
SPEAKER_02: and it has not changed a lot ever since then.
44:45
SPEAKER_02: It's interesting.
44:47
That is,
44:49
the classical form of a concert has not really changed since
44:53
the 1850s.
44:54
SPEAKER_02: which is a huge quality.
44:56
SPEAKER_02: It is a timeless quality, one could say.
45:00
But how to approach and how to encourage people that are
45:08
beautiful human beings,
45:10
SPEAKER_02: intelligent,
45:11
SPEAKER_02: but not educated in the way they had been 50 years ago or 100 years ago,
45:16
SPEAKER_02: that this is something it's beautiful to achieve.
45:21
SPEAKER_02: how to transmit what we know it is about.
45:27
It's about life,
45:28
it's about emotions,
45:29
it's about the beauty of life or the opposite.
45:33
It's about heaven and earth and death and life and love and
45:38
loss and whatever.
45:39
How do we imagine a 25-year-old that has not been introduced to
45:49
that world by his
45:49
SPEAKER_02: parents or grandparents
45:52
SPEAKER_02: Why should he go to a classical concert to experience this?
45:56
When he sees black-dressed guys on stage sitting there playing
46:00
an instrument or
46:01
SPEAKER_02: singing a Schubert song,
46:04
SPEAKER_02: there's a huge gap.
46:08
SPEAKER_02: Such a huge gap.
46:10
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying that it's not beautiful,
46:17
SPEAKER_02: but the gap has been increasing in the past,
46:21
SPEAKER_02: especially through MTV,
46:22
SPEAKER_02: you named it.
46:24
The gap has been increasing and increasing and increasing and
46:28
the level of
46:28
SPEAKER_02: education has been decreasing and decreasing and decreasing.
46:33
SPEAKER_02: And what can we do?
46:34
SPEAKER_02: We can say, no, we won't move.
46:38
SPEAKER_02: We have our conservative,
46:40
SPEAKER_02: traditional,
46:41
beautiful setup of concerts and whoever wants to be part of it
46:44
has to work to be
46:46
part of it and has to know the rules and has to know the
46:49
composers and has to read
46:51
SPEAKER_02: the book and has to go to the introductory talk.
46:54
Or we can every now and then just say,
46:58
okay,
46:58
let's make it more accessible.
47:01
SPEAKER_02: I say the word accessible.
47:03
SPEAKER_02: And this has a lot of layers.
47:06
SPEAKER_02: Accessibility for all of us here at the Salzburg Festival.
47:10
SPEAKER_02: in the summer of 2025 is something that we need help to understand.
47:20
What does access to the fine arts mean to somebody who is not
47:26
in our bubble,
47:27
SPEAKER_02: who has not been educated as we have been?
47:30
And I think,
47:31
honestly,
47:32
and with all I feel as an artist and as a father and as a human
47:36
being,
47:37
that the chances to excite people that have not been in touch
47:49
with classical music
47:50
SPEAKER_02: yet in their life,
47:51
SPEAKER_02: which is so many as never before,
47:55
SPEAKER_02: has never been bigger.
47:58
SPEAKER_02: We are at the biggest chance right now in the year of 2025 ever...
48:04
to open doors for more people to the world of classical music,
48:08
if we know how.
48:09
SPEAKER_02: I don't know how,
48:10
SPEAKER_02: but there's people that learn how,
48:13
SPEAKER_02: how to invite people from different cultural backgrounds,
48:16
SPEAKER_02: from different educational backgrounds,
48:18
SPEAKER_02: to this,
48:19
SPEAKER_02: what we consider the fine arts,
48:21
SPEAKER_02: the highest possible...
48:23
SPEAKER_02: spirit that we can share to listen to a Mahler symphony,
48:27
SPEAKER_02: to listen to a Schubert song cycle,
48:29
SPEAKER_02: to listen to a Shostakovich string quartet,
48:32
SPEAKER_02: to listen to the chromatical fantasy of J.S.
48:36
SPEAKER_02: Bach performed by Andra Schiff on a beautiful Bösendorfer piano.
48:40
SPEAKER_02: We believe that this can form better human beings.
48:44
SPEAKER_02: Why don't we grant access to more people?
48:46
SPEAKER_02: Why are we excluding so many by the way we communicate, by the way
48:51
SPEAKER_02: So I think this is... Sorry, we've lost track a little bit.
48:56
SPEAKER_02: It was about staging.
48:57
SPEAKER_02: No, it's the same topic.
48:58
So I believe that we are in a beautiful point of history of
49:06
music because we have
49:08
SPEAKER_02: so many possibilities.
49:09
SPEAKER_02: We have media, social media.
49:13
SPEAKER_02: We can invite by...
49:17
accepting that languages have changed in the past and are
49:22
changing so quickly,
49:24
so quickly.
49:26
SPEAKER_02: I don't understand my kids when they talk with each other, honestly.
49:30
SPEAKER_02: Like lately, slay, for example.
49:32
SPEAKER_02: There's a new youth word which is called slay.
49:34
SPEAKER_02: I never heard it.
49:39
SPEAKER_02: You see?
49:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, beautiful.
49:43
SPEAKER_02: Yes, thanks.
49:44
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
49:45
SPEAKER_02: So, language has been developing ever since mankind has been existing.
49:51
SPEAKER_02: And so, just to end this huge monologue, I'm very sorry.
49:58
I invited,
49:59
together with Kian,
50:01
I mentioned him earlier,
50:03
he's the co-founder of Liedstadt.
50:05
SPEAKER_02: I invited a friend of his, Christoph.
50:07
SPEAKER_02: Christoph is a guy, huge, 190 tall, used to be a security guy.
50:15
And now he's a black German and he's consulting companies for a
50:22
process of diversity.
50:26
And I invited him to recital to Elbphilharmonie Hamburg with
50:29
Sir Andras Schiff.
50:31
SPEAKER_02: I sang Schumann,
50:33
SPEAKER_02: Eichendorff Liederzyklus,
50:34
SPEAKER_02: and before Andras played some Schubert piano songs and Emma Nikolowska,
50:40
SPEAKER_02: a mezzo-soprano,
50:41
SPEAKER_02: from Moldavia, sang Schubert songs.
50:44
SPEAKER_02: And in the beginning of the concert,
50:47
SPEAKER_02: and this is what I want to point out,
50:51
SPEAKER_02: the presenter gave a short introductory talk with Andras on stage,
50:57
SPEAKER_02: about his life,
50:58
SPEAKER_02: about the composers he would present,
51:00
SPEAKER_02: about the music.
51:03
SPEAKER_02: And Christoph, the friend, later feedbacked us, you know what?
51:08
SPEAKER_02: So I dressed up to go to that concert.
51:14
SPEAKER_02: He said, ich habe mich verkleidet.
51:16
SPEAKER_02: So I not dressed up, I disguised myself to fit in in this concert.
51:22
The first thing he said,
51:24
the second was,
51:25
and the first thing I was told was information.
51:29
He said,
51:31
they were talking about a party that I was not invited to,
51:35
where I have not been.
51:37
All the composers,
51:40
he felt totally excluded in the first half hour of this
51:44
evening.
51:45
SPEAKER_02: And this is the worst that can happen.
51:47
If he excludes someone that is Kamuni,
51:50
the first thing is that he should be excited.
51:53
SPEAKER_02: And it's not his fault, it's the fault of the system.
51:58
That he doesn't feel that he can be himself and that he's not
52:02
invited to just
52:03
SPEAKER_02: simply enjoy Anders Schiff playing Schubert's ungarische Melodie,
52:08
SPEAKER_02: which was the first time that he played,
52:10
SPEAKER_02: after half an hour.
52:14
SPEAKER_02: Wonderful.
52:17
I think I'll ask one more question before asking for a few from
52:21
the audience.
52:23
SPEAKER_03: And thank you so much, by the way, for being here.
52:27
SPEAKER_03: Not to insert my own opinion, but just a little.
52:30
I'm sort of famous or infamous in New York for being against
52:34
talking from the stage.
52:36
SPEAKER_03: I just think music usually does it better,
52:39
SPEAKER_03: even though they're wonderful talkers in the world of music.
52:42
SPEAKER_03: You're one.
52:43
SPEAKER_03: I talk a bit myself.
52:44
SPEAKER_03: But nothing says it quite like the music, I think.
52:48
SPEAKER_03: Take Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.
52:50
SPEAKER_03: Do you want to hear someone talk about it?
52:52
SPEAKER_03: You want to hear an orchestra play it, you know?
52:56
SPEAKER_03: I could get on my soapbox.
52:59
SPEAKER_03: Julian,
52:59
SPEAKER_03: I won't ask for some complete list,
53:02
SPEAKER_03: some unabridged list,
53:04
SPEAKER_03: but just a few singers who are special to you,
53:10
SPEAKER_03: past,
53:10
SPEAKER_03: present,
53:13
SPEAKER_03: alive,
53:13
SPEAKER_03: deceased,
53:14
SPEAKER_03: male,
53:15
SPEAKER_03: female,
53:17
SPEAKER_03: any category,
53:19
SPEAKER_03: just some singers who have meant something to you over the years,
53:23
SPEAKER_03: outside of your own household,
53:25
SPEAKER_03: maybe.
53:27
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
53:29
SPEAKER_03: Starting with him, as you already said, yeah, for goodness sakes.
53:34
SPEAKER_02: So I would say the beauty,
53:37
SPEAKER_02: the sheer beauty of the voice of Andreas Scholl,
53:40
SPEAKER_02: the countertenor,
53:42
SPEAKER_02: is to me one of those lifetime miracles.
53:46
SPEAKER_02: Honestly.
53:48
SPEAKER_03: Andreas Scholl.
53:49
SPEAKER_03: Is that a pure gift from nature?
53:52
SPEAKER_03: Did he work at it?
53:54
SPEAKER_03: I'm sure he did, but did he earn it?
53:55
SPEAKER_03: Or is it simply a gift from nature?
53:58
SPEAKER_02: It's a combination of a gift and hard, hard work.
54:04
SPEAKER_02: He's a truly intelligent musician and craftsman and guy and thinker and
54:12
SPEAKER_02: entrepreneur and very charismatic.
54:18
And I'm lucky that this character and this voice found each
54:26
other,
54:27
let's say.
54:31
SPEAKER_02: So then I recently heard a soprano in my own festival in Hamburg that was
54:38
SPEAKER_02: recommended and I said,
54:39
SPEAKER_02: yes,
54:40
SPEAKER_02: we need this color.
54:42
SPEAKER_02: Let's invite her.
54:43
SPEAKER_02: Her name is Pia Davila.
54:48
SPEAKER_02: And she's not so well known internationally.
54:51
She was at Salzburg Festival last year for the Georg Friedrich
54:53
Haas opera.
54:55
SPEAKER_02: contemporary opera.
54:58
SPEAKER_02: In our festival,
54:59
SPEAKER_02: we have a series that is called Lieder für Alle,
55:02
SPEAKER_02: Songs for Everybody,
55:04
SPEAKER_02: free of entrance in a small museum,
55:06
SPEAKER_02: a pianino,
55:08
and whoever wants to come and listen to some songs is invited
55:12
for one hour.
55:14
And she sang from Mahler only songs from the 20th century,
55:20
some of them composed for her voice.
55:22
SPEAKER_02: I was never before so amazed by the abilities of a singer,
55:29
SPEAKER_02: of the usage of voice in terms of intonation,
55:32
SPEAKER_02: colors,
55:33
SPEAKER_02: noises.
55:36
SPEAKER_02: Incredible.
55:37
SPEAKER_02: Incredible.
55:39
SPEAKER_02: And I'm very happy that together... Give us the name once more.
55:42
SPEAKER_02: Pia Davila.
55:44
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
55:45
SPEAKER_02: She recorded a recital album recently.
55:49
SPEAKER_02: The title is Irgendwo auf der Welt gibt's ein kleines bisschen Glück.
55:54
SPEAKER_02: It's a kleines bisschen Glück.
55:56
SPEAKER_02: one of the songs that the Comedian Harmonists, for example, performed.
56:03
And I'm very happy that in next February I'm co-commissioning
56:09
together with
56:09
SPEAKER_02: Ensemble Moderne,
56:10
SPEAKER_02: this incredible ensemble for early music in Germany based in Frankfurt,
56:15
SPEAKER_02: my hometown.
56:17
SPEAKER_02: Limburg is my hometown, Frankfurt is my birth town.
56:22
SPEAKER_02: We are co-commissioning a new cycle based on Winterreise.
56:27
SPEAKER_02: And she will be the female part of these commissioned pieces.
56:33
SPEAKER_02: So Pia Davila recently, really.
56:37
SPEAKER_02: And then there's voices that are
56:41
SPEAKER_02: that have really impressed me from early childhood,
56:46
like Tom Hampson's Don Giovanni in the Zurich recording with
56:54
Nicolas Harnoncourt,
56:56
SPEAKER_02: for example.
56:58
SPEAKER_02: Brin Tervel's album of Rodgers and Hammerstein.
57:01
SPEAKER_02: Oh, man.
57:03
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
57:05
SPEAKER_03: I use this word advisedly.
57:08
SPEAKER_03: That is a great album.
57:10
SPEAKER_03: Great.
57:10
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
57:15
I would say in my non-Welsh English,
57:17
Bryn Terfel in Rodgers and Hammerstein songs.
57:23
SPEAKER_03: I think the title of the album is Something Wonderful.
57:26
SPEAKER_03: It's a song from the King and I, I believe.
57:29
SPEAKER_03: It's an amazing album.
57:30
SPEAKER_02: Really, it is.
57:31
SPEAKER_02: Some enchanted evening, you can find a stranger.
57:39
SPEAKER_03: Incredible.
57:40
SPEAKER_03: See, you don't need to be a bass or baritone to sing a song like that.
57:43
SPEAKER_03: Proving your point earlier.
57:44
SPEAKER_03: You don't need to be Ezio Pinza.
57:47
SPEAKER_03: No, Giorgio Tozzi, I think he was the original singer.
57:51
SPEAKER_03: I can't remember.
57:52
So,
57:52
staying at that kind of repertoire,
57:54
Frank Sinatra is one of the greatest voices of all time.
58:00
SPEAKER_02: Amy Winehouse is one of the most admirable vocal artists of all time.
58:06
SPEAKER_02: Um...
58:09
SPEAKER_02: I love the Dowland album of Sting, for example, because of his artistry.
58:20
Angela Georgiou loves Sting I don't love Angela Georgiou sorry
58:28
this is public I'll
58:30
let her know so then there come my the one I'm allowed to be
58:39
the lover of at the
58:40
SPEAKER_02: stage of Felsenreitschule tomorrow again Saide Sabine de Vielle it's an
58:46
SPEAKER_02: unbelievable gift
58:49
SPEAKER_02: Also,
58:49
SPEAKER_02: both,
58:50
SPEAKER_02: the combination of her personality,
58:52
SPEAKER_02: of her character,
58:53
SPEAKER_02: a humble,
58:54
SPEAKER_02: beautiful human being,
58:56
SPEAKER_02: kissed with this incredible voice.
59:00
And I sang with her in 2012 for the first time at the Festival
59:06
Aix-en-Provence and was like,
59:10
And so I'm still allowed to share the stage with her,
59:15
which is incredible.
59:20
SPEAKER_02: Then there's,
59:21
SPEAKER_02: in the early music field,
59:23
SPEAKER_02: there's also a voice that is not so well known in the States.
59:28
SPEAKER_02: Maybe yes, because she toured a lot with Philippe Herrewege.
59:32
SPEAKER_02: Her name is Dorothee Mielts.
59:35
SPEAKER_02: She comes from Northern Germany, she's half British.
59:39
SPEAKER_02: Dorothea Miel's Herb Bach recordings are something from another world.
59:45
mills m-i-l-l-s m-i-m-i-e-l-d-s oh thank you meals um and then
59:56
uh an incredible
59:59
singer from her charisma her artistry her fight um she's a yeah
1:00:08
amazing soprano i
1:00:09
SPEAKER_02: shared the stage with her together with korensis here in the indian queen
1:00:15
It was maybe 10 years ago that a video of her singing Rejoice
1:00:21
from the Messiah went
1:00:22
SPEAKER_02: viral on YouTube.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_02: And you can still find it.
1:00:26
SPEAKER_02: It's like a handmade.
1:00:31
SPEAKER_02: Just Google on YouTube, Janine the Big Rejoice, and...
1:00:37
SPEAKER_02: feel the joy that she transmits by singing this aria.
1:00:41
SPEAKER_02: So,
1:00:42
SPEAKER_02: and now I just,
1:00:43
SPEAKER_02: I mentioned Dorothee Mills and Janine de Bick,
1:00:47
SPEAKER_02: they couldn't be more contrary,
1:00:49
SPEAKER_02: the two voices,
1:00:51
SPEAKER_02: because Dorothee Mills sings with barely any vibrato.
1:00:55
SPEAKER_02: I don't think she ever sang music later than Schubert.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_02: She's a true, what we would say, early music voice.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_02: And Janine de Bigg has an amazing ability to sing Handel and Bach,
1:01:13
SPEAKER_02: or listen to Janine de Bigg singing St.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_02: Matthew's Passion soprano arias.
1:01:19
SPEAKER_02: She sang it recently with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra.
1:01:24
SPEAKER_02: I think you can also find it online.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_02: Aus Liebe will mein Heiland sterben, the big soprano aria from St.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_02: Matthew's Passion sung by Janine de Big is
1:01:37
SPEAKER_02: something for the last day of my life.
1:01:42
SPEAKER_03: I hope that's a long time from now, Julian.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_03: Me too, to be honest.
1:01:48
So I didn't mention any low voices,
1:01:53
but that's maybe the nature,
1:01:56
my preference.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_03: We can talk about them next time.
1:02:00
Yes,
1:02:01
I named Bryn Tervel,
1:02:04
and Tom Hampson,
1:02:06
but he's not really a low voice.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_02: He's a bright baritone.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_02: And who just turned 70, by the way.
1:02:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and he's still on stage.
1:02:19
And my father as well,
1:02:20
he will turn 70 next January,
1:02:23
and he's still performing.
1:02:24
And if artists take good care of their instrument,
1:02:29
of their message,
1:02:31
of...
1:02:33
Well,
1:02:34
I also adore...
1:02:36
SPEAKER_02: artists that died young.
1:02:38
SPEAKER_02: I named Kurt Cobain, Amy Winehouse.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_02: There's something of these burning artists that burn from two sides.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_03: Fritz Wunderlich.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_02: Yes, Fritz Wunderlich, exactly.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_03: You give me a memory.
1:02:50
SPEAKER_03: I think in this series...
1:02:52
SPEAKER_03: Preta, you may remember this.
1:02:54
Tom Hampson said to me,
1:02:56
Jay,
1:02:56
you won't believe this,
1:02:57
but next year I'm going to turn.
1:02:58
SPEAKER_03: And then he gulped and said, 50.
1:03:03
SPEAKER_03: Julian Pregardien, everyone.
1:03:05
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.