Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to the magnificent Toby Hadoke about his choice of Last of the Time Lords

Transcript

Talks to the magnificent Toby Hadoke about his choice of Last of the Time Lords · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a plump pen knife for doing quicker.
• 0:35
  Quicker, quicker, quicker. Hello, and welcome to a hamster
• 0:42
  with a blunt pen knife. My name is Toby Hadoke.
• 0:45
  I know that's that sinking feeling.
• 0:48
  When you get the Doctor Who DVD or box set, you go, God, it's
• 0:52
  that prick again. Well, I've invaded your favorite
• 0:55
  podcast as well. It's a hamster with a ubiquitous
• 1:00
  Zed list anorak here to spoil it all, but thank goodness we have
• 1:05
  the Huna versus Ryland Joe Fort. Ryland.
• 1:11
  Yeah, I love Ryland. And you remind me of Ryland a
• 1:13
  bit with your lovely energy and delivery.
• 1:18
  Fortunately, yes, Ryland Joe is here to to to to assure you that
• 1:25
  all things are all right, and hopefully to stop me going off
• 1:29
  into metaphors that don't quite end or dropping in facts that
• 1:32
  you really couldn't give a shit about.
• 1:34
  Gosh, it's quite it's quite freeing being on this, Joe.
• 1:38
  I don't have to. I can say things I wouldn't say
• 1:41
  anywhere else, and that'll all be against me.
• 1:43
  But anyway, there we go. Hello, Joe.
• 1:45
  I hate to tell you this. I don't.
• 1:47
  I love to tell you this, but every time I release an episode
• 1:49
  with you on it. Well, stats take a massive
• 1:51
  spike. So what you've said there is
• 1:54
  essentially a load of bullshit masochism.
• 1:56
  Or they're trying to see if they can find a clue as to where I
• 1:59
  live so they can come and novel me, knock me off, get rid of me.
• 2:04
  Yeah. I mean, I'd be sick of me by
• 2:05
  now. I think if I'm not on the Season
• 2:08
  20 box set that has just been announced, there's not a trace
• 2:11
  of me anywhere you can. Breathe again.
• 2:13
  No, it's been cancelled now. Oh, that looks enticing, doesn't
• 2:18
  it? Like that?
• 2:18
  Great. Yeah, I think it's going to be
• 2:20
  fabulous. I've seen, I've seen a couple of
• 2:22
  the bits that are that are going to be on it and they're great.
• 2:26
  Yeah, I think it's lovely and there's loads of stuff I haven't
• 2:29
  seen that I'm really looking forward to that.
• 2:30
  So glad they got Martin Clunes on it.
• 2:31
  I think that's terrific. And I I didn't know about that.
• 2:35
  There's yet another version of the five doctors I think.
• 2:37
  I think every 10 years with the technology available there
• 2:40
  should be another version of the we're talking about this
• 2:43
  yesterday I surely in 10 years time for the for the 70th
• 2:47
  they'll be able to what's that what's that thing that they do
• 2:52
  AI thing It's not only fans that's a different thing.
• 2:55
  What's the thing that you do when you where where deep fake
• 2:58
  where you could put William, they could put William Hartnell
• 3:00
  in instead of Richard Hurdle, you could actually have William
• 3:04
  Hartnell in The Five Doctors. They're on the way there, aren't
• 3:06
  we? Yeah, they'll be able to do that
• 3:08
  in 10 years time. Easy.
• 3:10
  Do you know what? This is appalling to say, but
• 3:12
  Richard Hurdle was my first first doctor.
• 3:16
  I love Richard Turndell. I wouldn't.
• 3:17
  It would have to be an alternative version.
• 3:19
  I wouldn't. I I I can, I can do some of his
• 3:23
  lines. I wonder what happened to the
• 3:26
  other. And I've always envied the way
• 3:30
  he gamely tries to eat that bit of pineapple.
• 3:35
  But as easy as pie as I mean as all of that but you know just as
• 3:43
  an exercise and go well what would they you know had had
• 3:46
  Hartnell still been around and that's because he he is
• 3:49
  different from Hartnell but but I didn't know that at the time
• 3:52
  because as like you he was he was pretty much all we had to go
• 3:55
  on. He certainly was what my my
• 3:57
  image of Hartnell what he was he was certainly how I imagined
• 4:00
  Hartnell to have been. But it would be an interesting
• 4:03
  exercise if you could if you could actually insert an actual
• 4:06
  Hartnell in there. I was thinking, you know, every
• 4:09
  time they do an interpretation of Hartnell, they just forget
• 4:11
  how funny and charming he was. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 4:18
  I think, I think and I think that's partially because all the
• 4:21
  interviews that were done, you know those those first
• 4:24
  interviews we ever had of people talking about Doctor Who.
• 4:27
  I think people maybe mistook William Hartnell for his doctor
• 4:30
  you know, that I think he was quite grumpy and and I and I
• 4:34
  think there was a sort of crossover.
• 4:35
  I mean I it still happens now when I've interviewed people
• 4:37
  when, you know, I remember Michael Bryant saying, well,
• 4:40
  you've got to remember Toby that William Hartnell was very old
• 4:43
  and you have to get no, he wasn't.
• 4:45
  He was he was in his late 50s. So, you know, I think he
• 4:49
  projected a certain image as well that that that influences
• 4:52
  the way that people remember him, I believe.
• 4:54
  Paul McGann is currently older than William Hartner was when he
• 4:57
  started as Doctor Who. Is that right?
• 4:59
  Oh, much older. Yeah.
• 5:00
  William Hart was 55 when he when he started as Doctor Who.
• 5:05
  Drinking from the eternal fountain of youth, Paul McGann
• 5:07
  still looks 30. Somehow he does.
• 5:09
  But they, you know, people in those days.
• 5:11
  They had. They had worst diets harder.
• 5:14
  Terrible teeth. Terrible.
• 5:16
  And I'd all been in a war, you know, I think that takes it out
• 5:20
  of you. Prematurely ages you.
• 5:22
  Yeah. So, yes, but yeah, we have, I
• 5:29
  think we have many more versions of the five doctors to come.
• 5:34
  My behalf is so excited for that, but above anything else,
• 5:37
  because that 90s, one with those wibbly triangles that came down,
• 5:40
  you know, CGI triangles, but contingency, it was the most
• 5:44
  exciting thing in the world for him.
• 5:45
  So he doesn't care about any of the extra feet.
• 5:46
  He don't care about any of it. He just wants the modern CGI
• 5:50
  effects on the five doctors. Yeah, New time triangle.
• 5:53
  That's what we get. We get a different one every
• 5:56
  you'll be able to judge what area you're living in by the
• 5:58
  time triangle that you remember. And the countdown starts now as
• 6:02
  to when they announced the next box set.
• 6:05
  Oh yeah, yeah, yes. I know what that is.
• 6:11
  I'm on that one. Sorry, everyone.
• 6:14
  I'm there ruining that one for you.
• 6:16
  But never mind. Now.
• 6:18
  Can I defy you to find a segue from what we're talking about
• 6:20
  into Last of the Time Lords? Well, we've just announced the
• 6:25
  last of the DVD box sets for now.
• 6:28
  It's not. No, that's terrible.
• 6:29
  It's not the last of the DVD, but the latest of the it's not
• 6:32
  latest of the Time Lords. The new release of The Time
• 6:35
  Lord. Well, from the five Doctors to
• 6:39
  the from the app, from the five Doctors with new CGI to the old
• 6:45
  Doctor almost made it entirely out of CGI.
• 6:52
  It's tenuous, but I'll take it. It's yes, it's it's the Last of
• 6:58
  the Time Lords, which is a great title and carries on, and we're
• 7:05
  trying to get to the narrow. I don't know if you remember
• 7:07
  this, but last time we loved Sound of Drums, but the spectre
• 7:11
  was hanging over us. Was that at the time this was
• 7:15
  deemed to be less satisfactory than perhaps previous season
• 7:19
  finales and we couldn't for the life of us having watched Sound
• 7:24
  of Drums work out where our feelings about that had come
• 7:28
  from. Apart from the the the stuff we
• 7:30
  talked about about John Sims master who which is a which is a
• 7:35
  an interpretation that provokes a lot of sort of internal
• 7:40
  conflict and conversation. But it it worked.
• 7:44
  It very much worked in what we what we saw last week, didn't
• 7:47
  it? Didn't it, Joe?
• 7:48
  So it would be interesting to see if the stuff in this episode
• 7:51
  that makes go that's why people came out of this season or or is
• 7:56
  it just that Doctor Who Founds are never bloody happy and
• 8:00
  always have an eye on worrying about whether other people will
• 8:04
  like it? That we forget to like it
• 8:05
  ourselves. I think there's two major
• 8:08
  objections. In fandom about this episode and
• 8:11
  found that's very general from people that don't like it and
• 8:15
  that is the Dobby Dr. Yeah. And the ending with the Doctor
• 8:21
  coming down in a blue light? Yeah, so Doctor Who's Dobby and
• 8:25
  Jesus? Which is not where I figured
• 8:29
  after watching The Sound of Drums where we were heading.
• 8:31
  Yeah, that's very true. Yes I will be interested and I I
• 8:36
  but and I know we've had lots of feedback on Twitter and I sort
• 8:40
  of scrolled through but I deliberately but but there seem
• 8:42
  to be some sort of fairly heated responses as well to people who
• 8:46
  had a a sort of visceral dislike of of elements of this.
• 8:50
  So I will be I'll be interested to see when you read those out
• 8:53
  how they chime with what we've watched.
• 8:56
  But interesting that it can still stir up that that kind of
• 9:01
  response even now because quite often things that don't sit
• 9:05
  easily with you at the time over the years you go oh I don't know
• 9:09
  why I ever had a problem with with that and I think this is
• 9:11
  definitely one of those for me. I've I've as I said I was
• 9:14
  slightly there was some niggle at the time and I can't remember
• 9:17
  what it was but every time since that I've I've really enjoyed
• 9:20
  it. I love the the urban thriller
• 9:22
  element and the dystopian stuff and the the underground
• 9:25
  rebellion stuff and all of that. That's very much my kind of
• 9:28
  Doctor Who. So I will be interested to see
• 9:34
  because I, you know, you could read criticisms of something
• 9:36
  that you like and go, yeah, no, OK, fair enough.
• 9:38
  I can, I can, I can get where they're coming from.
• 9:40
  So that will be an interesting coder to our own watch.
• 9:44
  I think they're both. Both of those things are very
• 9:47
  bold, creative decisions to make, and I do think the show
• 9:51
  should always be bold and not just go down the obvious route.
• 9:55
  So now I kind of admire them rather than like them.
• 9:58
  I I admire that he went there. Well, let's press play.
• 10:02
  Let's find out. Okay, Are you gonna count us in?
• 10:08
  I will and 54321. I can't get the rotten thing out
• 10:16
  of my head. Thank you.
• 10:18
  Hang on. Start program.
• 10:23
  Oh, shall I pause? Yeah, yeah.
• 10:25
  It jumped in in a funny place then.
• 10:28
  So let me let me just go. Back to tons of trust.
• 10:31
  I pick out from where you left off, right?
• 10:36
  I've paused it on the opening on the opening shot cuz I play as
• 10:41
  being tricky. Is that OK?
• 10:42
  So I'll unpause when you tell me.
• 10:44
  I like a bit of this in the podcast.
• 10:46
  You know where things go, so you're gonna keep all.
• 10:49
  This in, of course, yeah. Gorilla podcasting, I call it.
• 10:53
  Yeah, anything can happen. The dog could walk in.
• 10:55
  The kid could cry. I've had it all, I think, in 500
• 10:58
  odd episodes. God, it's good job I didn't tell
• 11:02
  you that thing about that person then. 54321 What a smooth start
• 11:16
  to so we've got the recap of what happened last time.
• 11:22
  Anything I don't like about previously on.
• 11:25
  Is it always points you to what's important in that first
• 11:28
  episode. You know what's going to inform
• 11:30
  the finale? Yes.
• 11:32
  And it happens a lot with American shows where they go,
• 11:34
  they're emphasizing that character.
• 11:36
  So they're going to die. Yeah, well, that thing's.
• 11:39
  Yeah, definitely. That was sort of broad.
• 11:42
  I was watching out there. That was a fairly broad overview
• 11:45
  of what happened in the last episode, yes, but it did mention
• 11:48
  the. Satellites I noticed, yes.
• 11:51
  And the Paradox machine, which is one of those great big
• 11:55
  nonsense things. But again, that they managed to
• 12:00
  make the nonsense resonate and not spend too much time with
• 12:05
  stuff that isn't real, if you like, because all the sort of
• 12:09
  technological stuff isn't really real.
• 12:10
  But they they give it enough heft without being sort of
• 12:12
  boring with it and disappearing up their own fundamentals.
• 12:15
  Because sometimes programs can do that when they create their
• 12:17
  own law, can't they? Because this is really
• 12:19
  important. But it's it's only important
• 12:21
  because you've created all of this nonsense.
• 12:24
  It's that's that's when shows start to eat themselves, when
• 12:26
  they believe their own inner publicity, if you like.
• 12:29
  With, I think Rusty Davis just gives you the big idea, shows
• 12:33
  you what it can do, and then moves on.
• 12:35
  Well, it shows you what it could do in order to provoke the
• 12:37
  emotional response and the character dynamics that are what
• 12:40
  is really important to the stories that he's telling.
• 12:42
  Do you know Toby? I don't think any showrunner
• 12:46
  since Rusty Davis can provoke emotions in the same way.
• 12:50
  He's so good at it. So good at.
• 12:52
  I'm looking forward to that element coming back to the show.
• 12:55
  Where? Go on?
• 12:56
  Sorry, no, no, go on. I've said too much.
• 13:00
  No, go on. Well, I was deeply shocked when
• 13:03
  this opens and we were skipping a year into the future at the
• 13:07
  time. But now I really like that, yes.
• 13:10
  And it's it's more of a thing I associate with Moffat where you
• 13:13
  have a cliffhanger and then he takes you to a completely
• 13:16
  different thing and then sort of.
• 13:18
  But then what he does is he sort of tells the story backwards or
• 13:21
  whatever or whereas whereas this I think what he this this that
• 13:28
  opening is every you know it's pirate ship on the shore you
• 13:33
  know smugglers but also French resistance.
• 13:36
  It's very it's very keyed in to those sort of action adventury
• 13:42
  things that were seem to be part of my youth but never sort of
• 13:46
  seemed to always always seemed maybe slightly too grown up for
• 13:49
  Doctor Who back in the olden days but have now been
• 13:52
  incorporated into its, into its storytelling that that a sort of
• 13:57
  you know, bread and butter sort of adventure things.
• 14:01
  But also because they're they echo sort of dramas that we're
• 14:07
  about. You know things like World War 2
• 14:10
  or whatever because they have an anchor in real life.
• 14:16
  You know, the stake seems slightly higher and it seems
• 14:19
  slightly sort of grimmer and more grown up, if you like, as
• 14:21
  grown up as Doctor Who can be, because obviously World War Two
• 14:25
  was a terrible thing where awful things happen to real people.
• 14:28
  But it's using the, the equipment of the fictionalized
• 14:33
  version of that that that was so much part of our landscape.
• 14:36
  But I know I'm talking over the Scissor Sisters here.
• 14:39
  My partner hates this scene. He thinks this is everything
• 14:42
  that's wrong with this approach. I think this is fantastic.
• 14:45
  It's the master of the heart of his powers.
• 14:47
  He's completely batshit crazy. He's got the Doctor in a tent
• 14:51
  like a dog. He's snugging his wife, He's got
• 14:54
  a bruise on her face. It's all a bit dark and crazy
• 14:58
  and the song as well, it's just really jarring.
• 15:03
  Yeah, I really like it. I mean I mentioned last week
• 15:06
  while I like Doctor Who having a song in it and I then and
• 15:13
  actually I then not long after this time I moved in with my now
• 15:18
  exwife and she she she had well we used to listen to the Scissor
• 15:21
  Sisters before we went out to London Town to do things.
• 15:24
  And so I rather like the Scissor Sisters.
• 15:25
  They're they're happy memories for me but but also because I'm
• 15:28
  a bit of a square anything that is that that that that that is
• 15:33
  sort of musical that is introduced to me that I sort of
• 15:35
  like I I, you know I'm sort of grateful to because it makes me
• 15:38
  feel as though I've at least got my finger slightly on the pulse.
• 15:41
  You know, you know, if they've been, if they've been, if, if,
• 15:46
  if they've been doing this to, you know, something from the
• 15:51
  olden days, I wouldn't have felt quite so invigorated by it, you
• 15:55
  know, and and and also it's a great, you know, it's a great
• 16:00
  sequence. It's again a sequence where
• 16:01
  there's no sort of plot or dialogue but it's a it's a mood
• 16:04
  piece that encapsulates everything that's going on and
• 16:08
  it's got a sort of cheeky power and it's it's really nicely
• 16:11
  filmed, but also it's leading us into this sequence where it
• 16:18
  seems like the masters in control, but we're actually
• 16:20
  getting a little bit of rebellion.
• 16:22
  It ends up to be foiled rebellion, but it shows that
• 16:27
  there's still a spark of even though it's one year later and I
• 16:31
  and I like the, I like the way that this is drilled that
• 16:34
  they've obviously this is their moment and it's all done with a
• 16:36
  look and and you know, you feel the relationship between them
• 16:40
  all. That's all, you know, the
• 16:43
  ordinary people coming together to try and overcome.
• 16:46
  That's a very Doctor Who thing, you know.
• 16:49
  But then obviously it's foiled. So yeah, it was like hope.
• 16:53
  Although have they tried this before?
• 16:54
  Because I swear, Jack goes, oh, not again.
• 16:56
  When they go to shoot him, Yeah, well, you get yeah, you get the
• 16:59
  impression. But it's the opposite to me of
• 17:02
  of the doc, the Jodie Whitaker Doctor Who's a prisoner of the
• 17:05
  Judun just go. Just having given up and Jack
• 17:07
  going to free her, which I I think is an odd choice.
• 17:13
  And I think if Russ T Davis had written that situation, it would
• 17:16
  have been you'd have met the Doctor and the Doctor would have
• 17:19
  been trying to escape and it would be foiled for the 400th
• 17:22
  time because the Doctor never gives up.
• 17:24
  And actually the Doctor had been doing that in order to get
• 17:27
  closer to Jack, because that made the Doctor very passive.
• 17:31
  I thought so. So this is a way that showing
• 17:33
  that even though our characters are subjugated, they are still
• 17:36
  doing what our hero characters do, which is trying against the
• 17:40
  odds, even if it fails, not again.
• 17:44
  Even in the face of all that humiliation that going through
• 17:46
  like Francine's dressed up like a maid, you know the dogs have
• 17:50
  been treated like a dog. The enormous John Sims statue.
• 17:56
  Yeah, that's that's great. You know, that's what great old
• 17:58
  despots do, isn't it? Make big statues of themselves.
• 18:02
  Now, I'm sure Tom Ellis is your cup of tea.
• 18:05
  Is he Joey? Absolutely beautiful, yes.
• 18:08
  I think he used to live around the corner for me when I lived
• 18:10
  in London, but he's an American now, isn't he?
• 18:15
  He's Lucifer. He's probably got adjusted with
• 18:17
  redlining. But obviously I wholeheartedly
• 18:23
  was on board with Martha marrying him as well after this.
• 18:26
  You know, that's that's the inference in Season 4, isn't it?
• 18:29
  And then all of a sudden and then suddenly she's not.
• 18:32
  Which? Yeah, which?
• 18:34
  Which? No.
• 18:35
  Clark is a good looking man but he's no Tom Ellis.
• 18:38
  Yeah. And and I've discussed that on
• 18:41
  another podcast about how you know there's an unfortunate
• 18:46
  element where they go. Yes, let's let's marry the two
• 18:50
  black people because they're they're both black.
• 18:52
  They'll marry each other, which seems an odd Miss strange
• 18:55
  misstep and it and it sells Tom Ellis's character short because
• 18:59
  he makes quite an impact in this.
• 19:02
  And it is lovely that he's not actually dead.
• 19:05
  And there is that inference. And then he's kind of forgotten
• 19:08
  about. It was with this sort of one
• 19:12
  year later, subjugated Earth. There was one trick I thought
• 19:16
  they missed because I think they do sell quite well with the
• 19:19
  locations they've got. But we never go to like a High
• 19:22
  Street or a Town Center or or like the center of London to
• 19:26
  really sort of sell the idea. We go to a street, we're on a
• 19:30
  beach, you know, we go to some hills.
• 19:33
  Well, that's because they're a lot cheaper and easier to.
• 19:38
  Manage Where's the finale? You know?
• 19:41
  Yeah, yes. There's parts of this world we
• 19:48
  could have seen that We don't for sure.
• 19:50
  I mean it's been explored elsewhere.
• 19:51
  There's a four part Big Finish set, there was a BBC book, The
• 19:56
  Story of Martha. So this was certainly right for
• 19:59
  people to go on and. How are you with the extra
• 20:05
  curricular adventures? Do you view them as Canon or
• 20:10
  just interesting curios that add texture to televise to if you so
• 20:15
  choose? Well, I don't.
• 20:17
  This is a common argument I have with my partner because he's
• 20:20
  obsessed with fitting everything into a jigsaw.
• 20:23
  So he has rules and regulations and and and you know, certain
• 20:26
  things count and other things don't.
• 20:28
  Whereas to me it all just counts and I don't try and fit it into
• 20:31
  one massive narrative. I just enjoy the stories.
• 20:35
  As far as I'm concerned, it all happened, even if it contradicts
• 20:38
  something before. I've listened to every big
• 20:41
  finish and I've read every book. I I never think a television
• 20:45
  story should worry about an important dramatic beat
• 20:49
  revelation, plot twist if it contradicts something that
• 20:53
  happens in a spin off book or a big finish.
• 20:56
  And literally just happened with that DVD trailer where they said
• 20:59
  to me, so we left you on Terminus and there was a whole
• 21:01
  run of Big Finish stories where an old Anissa came back and
• 21:05
  traveled with the Doctor and it completely sort of contradicted
• 21:08
  that, Yeah, yes. But if, I mean, if you're
• 21:13
  somebody that is angry with that trailer for that you will be in
• 21:18
  the 10% of people that I get the talk of fame to destroy, it
• 21:24
  might, you know what, I might end up putting more than 10% of
• 21:26
  the population. You might.
• 21:29
  I won't have a partner by the end of the night either.
• 21:32
  He's first on the list. The only thing I really object
• 21:35
  to is when extraneous material, which is important to the TV
• 21:40
  show is. Permitted.
• 21:42
  So like those those extra things they did like the Amy and Rory
• 21:46
  thing at the end and I'm like why wasn't that part of the show
• 21:48
  when it when it could have informed the TV show and
• 21:51
  actually given it some emotional resonance and and it leaves you
• 21:54
  loads of questions as to why they didn't do that and then
• 21:57
  they do these extras that are on the DVD, you know, well that's
• 21:59
  not really part of the show. No.
• 22:03
  And that's one of the problems with multi platform stuff now
• 22:07
  because yeah, you go that could have actually been done with
• 22:09
  being in the series. Yeah.
• 22:12
  This is very well shown. All of this stuff, isn't it?
• 22:14
  This is all great. I loved V when I was a kid.
• 22:19
  It seemed so grown up that you would have because they all had
• 22:22
  that you know, they had a resistance movement and
• 22:24
  underground cells and it was all, you know had that kind of
• 22:27
  survivors element of that having to beg, borrow and steal their
• 22:30
  sustenance and their supplies. But also it's got the you know
• 22:34
  despotic ruler thing going on and also you know the people,
• 22:38
  some people being compliant with that that that that ruling
• 22:42
  malfeasance and all all that sort of stuff.
• 22:44
  So and and and you're able to make it look like everything's
• 22:48
  been coupled together, you know, because they've, they've had
• 22:50
  steel equipment. So and that makes it feel a
• 22:54
  little bit retro and World War Two in a way, because they're
• 22:57
  using archaic equipment. And so it's really evocative,
• 23:00
  all of that stuff. It's a really clever thing to
• 23:03
  decide to do because it gives you atmosphere, it gives you
• 23:06
  drama, just in the way it looks and just in the way it feels.
• 23:09
  We're not gonna have to have that conversation we had about
• 23:11
  like 7 about V, are we? Cuz remember when you said you
• 23:15
  had no idea when you were younger just how camp it was?
• 23:18
  I'm afraid so. I no.
• 23:20
  Are you saying it was like Dynasty in Space V?
• 23:24
  No, it was clever. It was, you know, it was again,
• 23:30
  it was like sort of World War 2. I mean, and and actually they
• 23:33
  they wear the World War 2 illusions on their sleeve, don't
• 23:35
  they? It's very deliberate in places.
• 23:38
  But I did. I didn't realize Diana was camp
• 23:41
  it. Was very glam as well and and
• 23:44
  glam and all of that. But I have to say that that is
• 23:47
  more so once Kenneth Johnson has left and it becomes the the
• 23:52
  series. You know, you have the two
• 23:55
  bitchy Richie the Diana and Lydia, don't you?
• 23:59
  And but that's that's not what V the miniseries was when it's got
• 24:03
  the spaceships in the sky and the, you know, and the tearing
• 24:06
  off of the faces and, you know, spotting them in, you know, you
• 24:09
  threw a grill eating up, eating a hamster because, you know, you
• 24:12
  were a nice person. Yeah, it it seemed it, it was a
• 24:17
  TV event. It was really grown up.
• 24:19
  It was the thing that people sort of talked about.
• 24:22
  Then I revisited it and was really disappointed.
• 24:25
  And actually, when I watched it recently, I think there's a huge
• 24:30
  difference between the the original and then the final
• 24:34
  battle where they actually the guy who envisaged it has been
• 24:38
  fired and executives of what a surprise come in and fucked in
• 24:42
  a. Bit like Fred Fryberg are
• 24:44
  getting hold of Star Trek The Original Series, isn't it?
• 24:47
  And we've completely talked over the first appearance of the
• 24:50
  Dobby Dr. here. Yes, well.
• 24:54
  What you imagine was going on here, I don't know.
• 24:57
  I wonder if you know, as a as a contractual thing, David Tennant
• 25:02
  could only give them a a certain amount of time and and they
• 25:07
  found themselves towards the end of the series realizing they
• 25:09
  weren't going to have their leading man.
• 25:11
  Because it seems, especially his Tennant was so big and so
• 25:15
  integral to the success of the series and so popular, it seems
• 25:19
  an odd choice to remove him from the season finale.
• 25:24
  But it may it may have been a more positive thing.
• 25:26
  It may have been that they go we've we've worked out a way to
• 25:29
  do a convincing CGI shrunken Dr. and and we should do that
• 25:33
  because that will be a big event that will be a big scary thing
• 25:36
  for the finale. But it does and and it could
• 25:40
  have been one of those things. It's only when you put it
• 25:42
  together at the end that you go Oh yeah.
• 25:43
  But in doing that we've we've removed our lead actor because
• 25:47
  you know hindsight is always 2020 and you know I've made
• 25:50
  things where it's only when you get to the other side of it you
• 25:54
  think oh God, that never occurred to me but but now look
• 25:57
  at it. But I don't know because Russell
• 25:58
  is cleverer than I am and. The team behind it, the thing
• 26:02
  he's got his massive voice, so he just looks kind of like an
• 26:05
  anime character. Yeah, well I'm not a massive CGI
• 26:09
  fan anyway. I am a big fan by the way of
• 26:13
  Eddie Haddington here, who has a brilliant face and he's a very
• 26:16
  good actress and does does a nice turn as this this
• 26:22
  professor. Did you ever see her in?
• 26:25
  She She was given a comedy show on Sky called The Cafe, and it
• 26:30
  was very slight, very quiet, two series comedy.
• 26:35
  She would move me to tears in nearly every episode.
• 26:38
  Oh no, but she's great and I have seen her on the train.
• 26:41
  I think she lives. I think she lives round these
• 26:43
  parts. She's she's also the mum in
• 26:48
  Motherland as well, which I binged recently, And the door.
• 26:53
  This whole sequence with them trapping the talk of faith, it's
• 26:55
  very dynamic, isn't it? It's fantastic.
• 26:58
  Colin Teague's great at the at the sort of dramatic set pieces.
• 27:04
  I'd I'd like him to come back actually and direct some more
• 27:06
  because I think he's. I think he handles his episodes
• 27:08
  really really well and I think he's particularly good at this
• 27:11
  modern day fast pace making Doctor Who seem sort of of its.
• 27:20
  I know it's about time travel and alien worlds and history and
• 27:22
  all of that, but there's something about when it when it
• 27:25
  comes to the present day and really makes an impact.
• 27:28
  And it seems like it fits into the modern sort of television
• 27:33
  landscape that as a as a fan for whom it was so often an
• 27:38
  embarrassment, do you know what I mean?
• 27:40
  It really excites me when Doctor Who sort of comes into the
• 27:43
  present day and grabs it by the scruff of the neck.
• 27:45
  And again, you know, I don't think it's been captured since
• 27:48
  Rusty Davis left. Not in the same way.
• 27:51
  Well, I think. I mean, I think Moffett's
• 27:52
  decision to take Doctor Who back to Villages.
• 27:56
  Was refreshing, was refreshing and and smart and and I thought
• 28:02
  Shibna's decision to you know to go to Sheffield and and and give
• 28:06
  a slightly different vibe in that way because you can't do
• 28:09
  what's gone before in a in a way you know Russell had it easy
• 28:13
  because he could choose for everything and everyone that
• 28:16
  followed him had that terrible thing ago.
• 28:18
  Well, I I can't be seen to be trying to copy what what Russell
• 28:23
  did. I have to do something else.
• 28:25
  So I will be very interested to see because he's not going to
• 28:28
  come back and do exactly the same.
• 28:30
  I've heard that. No.
• 28:33
  Look at he's look at what he's done since he left Doctor Who.
• 28:35
  He's gone off in all kinds of and it's just got you know I
• 28:39
  think his work has just got better and better since he left
• 28:41
  the show. I'm I'm I've not been as excited
• 28:44
  by the prospect of Doctor Who. There's no reflection on the
• 28:47
  show when it's on. I'm not calling any, any,
• 28:50
  anybody out in terms of the actual manifestation of the
• 28:53
  program now, but just in terms of because, you know, the
• 28:58
  excitement obviously also wanes as you get older and as you get
• 29:01
  more used to it. You take it for granted, but
• 29:03
  like you do with anything, like you do with, you know, bloody
• 29:07
  husbands and wives, you know everything.
• 29:10
  But I, I, I haven't been this excited about the prospect of
• 29:16
  Doctor Who for a very long time. And that's partially because
• 29:20
  they manage, they manage the outside of the show so well.
• 29:25
  Suddenly everyone's talking about the show in such a
• 29:27
  positive way, you know? And it's just a few.
• 29:30
  It's a trailer. It's a few pictures.
• 29:32
  It's a it's a three sentences uttered on a red carpet but so
• 29:36
  well chosen. Although nothing got me more
• 29:38
  excited than when Donna touched beat the meat on the eye.
• 29:43
  This is gonna be amazing. Beat the me.
• 29:47
  If anyone could do it. Oh, Toby, this sequence.
• 29:52
  I thought that was Davros for a split second.
• 29:54
  It's horrible, isn't it? It's great.
• 29:58
  It's the idea that that's the kid from you or that they're all
• 30:02
  linked. I think they have to all be
• 30:04
  there. If it's a it's a it's a a mad
• 30:07
  coincidence. If the one that they capture is
• 30:10
  the kid and I never read it as that and and I'm sure some
• 30:13
  people have and I I can understand why and I don't
• 30:16
  really. There's no sort of in show
• 30:18
  justification for my feeling that what they're trying to
• 30:21
  suggest is that he's going because we're a sort of group
• 30:27
  entity. We know you had that
• 30:29
  conversation with that lad and he's one of us, but we are all
• 30:32
  one and we are all, you know I don't think you say I'm the guy
• 30:35
  that you met. I'm the I'm the lad who won the
• 30:37
  Blue Peter competition. Hello.
• 30:39
  I don't because that that I think that's too unbelievable in
• 30:43
  a program about someone who travels through diamond space in
• 30:46
  the police box that's bigger on the inside than it is on the
• 30:47
  outside. But I don't think that's what
• 30:49
  Russell's trying to suggest with that, That it's the literal same
• 30:53
  same guy. And this here, where Lucy and
• 30:58
  the Master talk about what they saw and Utopia, the furnaces and
• 31:03
  the last of humanity being burned.
• 31:06
  I'm not sure if the show has been much darker than this.
• 31:10
  It's horrible, It's bleak. And again Russell's Doctor Who
• 31:14
  is full of positivity and zeal and fun.
• 31:17
  But he puts he makes his main characters pay for the adventure
• 31:25
  that they have and it's always the sort of pay off with Doctor
• 31:28
  Who is that it is a fun adventure but people die and and
• 31:35
  and and he plays quite deliberately.
• 31:37
  I know a lot of people that didn't like the Doctor and Rose
• 31:39
  because they saw them as being too smug or whatever.
• 31:42
  Now whether he listened to that and so then built it in or
• 31:46
  whether it was a plan all along, I don't know.
• 31:48
  But he he kind of went well. Yeah, but that's building up to
• 31:52
  punishment, you know, and I've I've been watching quite a mess
• 31:55
  a lot recently and it's it's that that thing about, you know,
• 31:58
  we celebrate the breaking of frontiers of science because
• 32:02
  that is how we progress. But that thing that can also be
• 32:07
  mad folly and can unleash hell. And the two things sort of go
• 32:12
  hand in hand. And the same with this, you
• 32:13
  know, you you enjoy this adventure because you have to,
• 32:16
  because it's the only way to stay sane.
• 32:18
  But if you enjoy it too much, what sort of a monster does that
• 32:21
  make you and what are the consequences of that?
• 32:23
  And and Russell's not afraid to go there and I think that's
• 32:27
  really interesting. And the the, the joy of this is
• 32:31
  obviously when they went off in that rocket in utopia and you
• 32:34
  thought that's the last we're gonna see.
• 32:35
  And then they're off to Utopia. They're gonna have a great time,
• 32:38
  you know, Have happy days for the human race.
• 32:42
  Returned it to baby footballs. Yeah.
• 32:46
  And the answer has been screaming us in the face since
• 32:48
  the middle of the last episode. I think it's it's really great.
• 32:53
  And you know, I'm going to make a maybe unfair comparison with
• 32:58
  exposition delivered by Chris Chibnell and the Timeless
• 33:00
  Children. Well, you have 15 minutes slide
• 33:03
  show that is absolutely internal.
• 33:05
  I love that era, but I have big issues with that sequence in
• 33:08
  that episode and he doesn't the same thing.
• 33:11
  Russy Davis does the same thing here in 2 minutes, crosscutting
• 33:14
  between. Two sets of characters with a
• 33:18
  visual representation of what they're talking about.
• 33:22
  And it's economic and it's it's brutal dialogue and it's
• 33:25
  beautifully acted and drama within it as well.
• 33:29
  Cuz Tom Ellis shoots it and all of that.
• 33:30
  So you know the the the conversation leads to something
• 33:34
  within the scene not just explaining to the viewer.
• 33:38
  It's, you know, it's it's all very elegantly seeded into the
• 33:42
  to the drama and to the pacing of the episode.
• 33:44
  It's integral to the pacing of the episode, rather than a pause
• 33:49
  from the pacing of the episode. Whilst that stuff has got out of
• 33:52
  the way. That's sort of.
• 33:53
  Boring you silly. It resonates.
• 33:56
  It really does. And this, of course, is Martha's
• 34:03
  last episode is a regular, isn't it?
• 34:05
  It is. She gets a good meaty role as
• 34:08
  well, which we didn't know at the time.
• 34:10
  I didn't know she was leaving, I don't think at the time.
• 34:13
  Did you? No, I don't think the Catherine
• 34:16
  Tate thing had been announced. No, I think the Kay thing might
• 34:20
  have been. I can't, I don't know.
• 34:24
  But I'm pretty certain it was a surprise when she didn't get on
• 34:27
  board the TARDIS. It's the weirdest thing, because
• 34:30
  when I first watched this, I found her departure so
• 34:32
  underwhelming. Now it's my favorite of all the
• 34:36
  new series companions departures because it's so positive.
• 34:40
  It's so positive. It's and it's sort of, it is all
• 34:43
  linked into the season and she is sort of claiming her life
• 34:46
  back and saying, you know what, I'm not going to hang around you
• 34:49
  anymore if you're not going to give me what I need.
• 34:51
  I actually use that. This sounds crazy.
• 34:54
  I use that scene. I showed a friend who's not a
• 34:57
  fan of Doctor Who was in a toxic relationship.
• 34:59
  I needed to walk out, you know, I just wanted to hear those
• 35:02
  words. Get out, you know?
• 35:04
  And it was really interesting. Yeah.
• 35:06
  Yeah. And it makes a virtue of the
• 35:08
  fact that you know those who might say, well it's unfair on
• 35:13
  her because you know the Doctor obviously has this slightly you
• 35:19
  know this this we we love each other thing with Rose whereas
• 35:23
  she doesn't have that And people say well that's unfair on Martha
• 35:28
  and mad people say oh that's racist because she's the black
• 35:31
  companion and Rose wasn't. So they shouldn't cast an
• 35:35
  actress of color because there's only certain things you're
• 35:37
  allowed to do that. I mean that way madness lies.
• 35:39
  But let's not get into that. But it it it it actually it it
• 35:45
  it, it turns what could be a disadvantageous thing for the
• 35:48
  for the character and the actor to go.
• 35:50
  When you're you know, you don't have all the positive things
• 35:55
  that Rose had as a character and actually make you more powerful
• 36:01
  and make your journey more powerful.
• 36:03
  Because of that rejection and playing second fiddle, she finds
• 36:09
  herself and empowers herself and takes that very, very positive
• 36:13
  step. Yeah.
• 36:14
  And it's and it's written by Joe Russie Davis, who understands
• 36:17
  emotions and relationships and people so well.
• 36:20
  So the the joy of it is she kind of has that awkward goodbye with
• 36:23
  him and then she walks out and she's like, no, I'm going to
• 36:26
  bloody well have my say. And she goes back in and she
• 36:29
  goes right, This is why I'm going, yeah, it's brilliant.
• 36:33
  And it's good. Oh, and look, Professor Dockett
• 36:36
  is a traitor. But that's another great thing
• 36:39
  about Russie Davis, right? Don't get comfortable with any
• 36:41
  character. You think Harriet Jones, you
• 36:44
  know, is the savior of humanity. Well, guess what?
• 36:47
  She may fire out and destroy that cigarette shit, but she's
• 36:50
  But look, it's all in her face as well.
• 36:51
  She's not a baddie traitor. She hates herself for doing
• 36:55
  this, but she's doing it. She's doing it because she's a
• 37:01
  person, you know, under under despotic rule.
• 37:05
  And she's she's got something that might give her a little bit
• 37:10
  of help in something that she needs, you know, something very
• 37:13
  personal. So it's a lot of good people do
• 37:17
  a lot of bad things under those sorts of circumstances.
• 37:20
  But the beautiful payoff where she gives her the flowers at the
• 37:22
  end? Lovely.
• 37:24
  Gorgeous. Even though, yeah, she's giving
• 37:27
  flowers to somebody who never actually became the person who
• 37:29
  did that thing. Yeah, yes it is the need.
• 37:32
  To do it anyway. Yeah.
• 37:33
  You think about all of this, then.
• 37:35
  What do you think about Martha going around spreading the word
• 37:37
  of the Doctor, essentially creating a ton of Doctor Who
• 37:40
  fans? They're gonna save the day.
• 37:42
  It's I think it's it's something that I have to think long and
• 37:48
  hard about with this era and it's and I think it's an
• 37:51
  entirely personal thing and it and it and it's maybe not
• 37:55
  something I'm comfortable with about about myself and I I I
• 38:01
  automatically shrink away from Doctor Who patting itself on the
• 38:06
  back but maybe that's me reading too much into it and and and
• 38:11
  they're just trying to tell a an exciting story but I I worry so
• 38:16
  it's all so complicated it's all bound up with all of our history
• 38:19
  as Doctor Who fans and what we've gone through with the show
• 38:22
  being slacked off but we've we've so that this is a well
• 38:24
  rehearsed conversation but but when doc I I like the Doctor Who
• 38:29
  of I save planets mostly. You know, you know, I I do this
• 38:33
  kind of by mistake. I'm a I'm a, you know, I'm a
• 38:37
  slightly disorganized traveler who's got a moral call.
• 38:41
  But the temptation of course when you're making a program
• 38:43
  that is successful is to sort of go, you know, that's the stuff
• 38:47
  of legend and all of that sort of thing.
• 38:50
  But I I shrink away from that because and I think, oh let's
• 38:55
  not get into the psychology of my Methodist grandmother who
• 38:57
  told you never to have ideas above your station.
• 38:59
  And even if you look vaguely pleased with yourself, she cut
• 39:02
  you down to size and then make you feel guilty when you weren't
• 39:05
  even feeling arrogant about it in the 1st place, you were just,
• 39:07
  you know, it's all bloody complicated.
• 39:09
  But I, I, I, I, I, I I think I like Doctor Who is a program to
• 39:16
  be the plucky underdog that somehow embedded itself in the
• 39:19
  heart of the nation and the landscape rather than the chart
• 39:23
  topping. Brilliant success because I
• 39:25
  identify more with the with the plucky underdog that does its
• 39:29
  best despite not necessarily having the qualities that will
• 39:32
  make it mainstream Success. Then I do identify with the
• 39:36
  chart topping show that everybody loves.
• 39:39
  So therefore when the show itself sort of goes, the doctor
• 39:42
  is the stuff of legend. I I'm uneasy with that, even
• 39:48
  though that might just come from self loafing rather than
• 39:51
  anything the show is doing wrong.
• 39:54
  Well, the trouble is, we're going down that rabbit.
• 39:56
  How is where does it end? You know, cuz I think each
• 39:59
  showrunner has taken on that idea and suddenly got people
• 40:02
  screaming out Doctor Who, Doctor Who and, you know, Matt Smith
• 40:06
  materializing as a shadow on the wall when people are scared, cuz
• 40:10
  he's such a great scary mythological figure.
• 40:13
  And then suddenly the Doctor is the foundation of time N
• 40:16
  society. And you know, like.
• 40:18
  It it gets a bit much. Yeah, I'm much more plucky
• 40:23
  improviser on the outskirts of everything then, you know, angry
• 40:28
  God. The one thing I do love, which a
• 40:30
  lot of people object to, is how Russell T Davis eventually
• 40:33
  addresses that. And then you have a doctor in
• 40:35
  the walls of Mars that suddenly starts believing in his own
• 40:39
  patient, and his hubris is ultimately his downfall.
• 40:42
  Awful. That was a really clever that to
• 40:44
  make him that unlikable at the end of that episode.
• 40:47
  Yes, it is. And it's the logical extension
• 40:51
  of this kind of build up that they give it.
• 40:56
  I quite like that once again that the sort of Mcguffin ends
• 40:59
  up being completely useless. You know her big gun, that she's
• 41:01
  traveled the world. And sad to see Tom Ellis getting
• 41:04
  zapped, but I suppose that was bound to happen.
• 41:08
  Although I think if you want to kill somebody, you should shoot
• 41:10
  them rather than run down the street pointing your gun and
• 41:13
  yelling. No, but there we go.
• 41:14
  I'm old fashioned. That's just one of those TV
• 41:17
  things, isn't it? My best friend is Luke Malloy.
• 41:22
  He loves this scene where he left a comment on the Twitter
• 41:26
  thread. This scene where she said with
• 41:28
  15 satellites and Mara get Martha gets her here a moment.
• 41:31
  Yes, she does deliver it perfectly.
• 41:35
  I yeah, I think Freema Rajaman is really good at all that stuff
• 41:40
  and this is a great episode for her.
• 41:45
  And I like, I like her family. It is unusual.
• 41:50
  I do think that Martha is skipped over a little in favor
• 41:52
  of Rose and Donna. I think so.
• 41:55
  I think so. Unfairly as well.
• 41:58
  Yeah, yeah. But she'll she'll get a moment
• 42:01
  in the sun. You know it's it's happened to a
• 42:04
  great many companion. You know nobody talks about
• 42:08
  Steven Taylor for years but everyone loves Peter Purvis and
• 42:10
  Steven Taylor now. So you, you just wait, you know?
• 42:14
  Suddenly, suddenly she'll she'll be, she'll be everybody's
• 42:17
  favorite for a bit, you know? Pendulum swings and I've seen
• 42:22
  her in other stuff she's in that.
• 42:23
  Is it Sense 8 that that funny show?
• 42:26
  She's great in that. Don't get me started on that.
• 42:29
  The first sequence, I don't know if you recall, was her getting
• 42:32
  out of bed with a dildo. And I'll type This is this is
• 42:36
  not what I want to see Martha Jones up to, no.
• 42:37
  No, no, no, no, no, that's my cup of tea.
• 42:40
  But but you know what? If if Bonnie Langford can have a
• 42:44
  triumphant return to Doctor Who, I now believe that anybody
• 42:47
  could. Yeah, absolutely.
• 42:51
  Yeah. And it's, you know, that's
• 42:53
  extraordinary that that somebody who the news of her casting in
• 42:57
  Doctor Who the first time round caused such seismic derision and
• 43:05
  the news exactly the same people.
• 43:08
  And I would, I'm afraid, include myself in this.
• 43:11
  I was furious when Bonnie Langford was cast when I was a
• 43:14
  teenager, for all reasons that I you know.
• 43:18
  That that seemed perfectly understandable at the at the
• 43:20
  time. And And then when her return to
• 43:24
  Doctor Who, which I'd never anticipated, was announced, it
• 43:29
  was a punch, the air triumph of a national treasure being in and
• 43:32
  you suddenly go. But it's the same person and she
• 43:34
  hasn't done anything different. The only difference is, well,
• 43:37
  the difference is is where her career was then and where her
• 43:40
  career has been since. Yeah, and hopefully, I think.
• 43:48
  Maybe more circumspect and less childish response to things and
• 43:56
  but yeah, she's a national treasure and rightly show.
• 44:00
  She's brilliant. Isn't it typical of this country
• 44:02
  though? Isn't it that why didn't we like
• 44:04
  Ronnie Langford in the older days?
• 44:05
  Cuz she was really good at everything that she did and
• 44:07
  really enthusiastic about it. How dare she, you know.
• 44:11
  That talented. There's something in that
• 44:14
  inherent self loathing, isn't there?
• 44:15
  That we hate successful people. Yeah, yeah.
• 44:19
  And yeah. Here we go.
• 44:21
  Here we go, transforming now into a messianic figure.
• 44:26
  Yeah, which I mean makes absolute sense and it makes plot
• 44:30
  sense as well, as you said the 15 satellites and the psychic
• 44:34
  network which the Master has set up.
• 44:36
  So it actually makes sense within the science fiction of
• 44:39
  it. And it makes sense within the
• 44:43
  fact that the Doctor has become this figure.
• 44:47
  You know, the the you know, my God he's he's played the Doctor
• 44:51
  has played a bigger part in my life than most real people and
• 44:55
  as in terms of happiness, morality, all sorts of things.
• 45:02
  But I'm I'm not wild about the Doctor is Jesus.
• 45:06
  I don't know it. And I don't know why the gun
• 45:11
  doesn't work. He's got superpowers now.
• 45:15
  By all accounts, after that old age makeup, David Tendon has
• 45:18
  never looked more beautiful. How do you feel about the Doctor
• 45:24
  is Jesus? Do you know?
• 45:27
  I had somebody on Hamster who is a Christian who gave it an
• 45:32
  entirely positive reading. So we were doing that.
• 45:35
  We were doing New Earth, I think, and it wasn't part of
• 45:38
  that episode that he wanted to address it.
• 45:42
  Yeah, it's a bit much, isn't it? I like this.
• 45:44
  You remember the sequencing voyage of the Town as well,
• 45:47
  where the angels take him up to him in slow motion with the
• 45:53
  chorus going crazy. It's it's it's just a bit
• 45:56
  melodramatic, that's all. But but watching it now, and I
• 46:00
  think I've, I think I've rationalized myself with some of
• 46:03
  Russell Davis's big flourishes, is that it's more important the
• 46:07
  effect that it has on the Master.
• 46:10
  Than than what it does to our suspension of disbelief or or
• 46:15
  whatever in that that I forgive you is obviously a continuation
• 46:19
  of the Jesus thing and and that's the worst thing you can
• 46:23
  say to which is really psychologically very interesting
• 46:26
  as as to how that character works and what the shows is
• 46:30
  about. So it's almost like it's
• 46:32
  metaphorical value is is more important than its dramatic
• 46:36
  value in in in a sense. And I I sort of respect that in
• 46:41
  a way, more now than again I did back then, where I used to get,
• 46:45
  you know, very cross about, you know, endings, you know, magical
• 46:50
  endings or whatever. He's really thinking about the
• 46:52
  dynamic of their relationship in a way the classic series sort of
• 46:56
  barely flirted with. Yeah, and I I have to say I love
• 47:01
  people with machine guns especially, especially if it's
• 47:04
  Captain Jack in Doctor Who. I love that it's a gorgeous
• 47:09
  tracking shot there as they were running around those corridors.
• 47:12
  Yeah, beautiful. Do you know ever since somebody
• 47:16
  said to me that they're like a bunch of maltes that said them
• 47:18
  towards the Earth? That's all I can see now,
• 47:19
  because as an advert was a very similar special effect.
• 47:23
  You know what? There's an underrated suite.
• 47:24
  I love a Malteser. Me too.
• 47:27
  And they try to evoke a sort of Rikenback Falls moment.
• 47:30
  Here they've gone to this sort of massive edifice down on the
• 47:33
  it's a weird the way they've beamed down and then sort of
• 47:36
  head back up again. It's always a bit I kind of
• 47:38
  forget has happened every time I watch it and this bit happens
• 47:41
  and we had forgotten about this bit because it seems so.
• 47:45
  Unusual for the story and they've kind of blasted the
• 47:47
  filter as well, hasn't it? It's a it's a something about
• 47:50
  the sort of color palette. Yeah.
• 47:53
  And is this the, the music? Yeah.
• 47:56
  I love this piece of music. I yeah, I love.
• 48:01
  I think it's called All the Strange, Strange Creatures,
• 48:03
  isn't it? And it's the train of music.
• 48:07
  I I sometimes listen to this on my telephone when I'm walking
• 48:12
  around the park. And I imagine being in a trainer
• 48:14
  for Doctor Who. So there we are.
• 48:17
  There's a confession never told anybody that I have.
• 48:19
  I have. All of them are go and the
• 48:22
  second I can only ones and I listen to them over and over.
• 48:25
  So these musical cues are just burn in my brain.
• 48:27
  Yeah, but you know what? It's quite busy this.
• 48:30
  There's a bit too much going on here.
• 48:34
  But it is the season finale. But is it an inevitable reset?
• 48:40
  I guess it is. We we really couldn't continue
• 48:43
  the show with that many people being killed.
• 48:46
  No, I I think that would be, yeah, I think that would.
• 48:50
  But there is I I do think there's something strangely
• 48:55
  unsatisfying about going Everything that you've just
• 48:57
  watched didn't happen. But what I do like about it is
• 49:02
  that the characters we care about, it did happen to them.
• 49:05
  And that's and that's that's very clever.
• 49:07
  The people in the eye of the storm will carry the weight of,
• 49:11
  again, the emotional repercussions, which are what is
• 49:15
  important. So yes, so again, I'm perhaps
• 49:18
  more forgiving of it now than I I felt at the time, where the
• 49:22
  the bigger picture bothered me more than the smaller but more
• 49:27
  important picture resonated peculiarly.
• 49:32
  And I do think the realization of it, of the sun going around
• 49:35
  the earth. And then we cut to all parts of
• 49:37
  the globe in sort of beautiful images.
• 49:41
  So, well done, Yeah. But again, just like kind of
• 49:45
  told you really quickly, really economically.
• 49:47
  I keep using that word, but that's Russell T.
• 49:50
  And again, brilliantly, he's sold all this.
• 49:52
  But the story needs to end. The Doctor needs to beat the
• 49:56
  Master. And you're going, well, they
• 49:59
  can't just capture him what's gonna happen here?
• 50:02
  But of course. So I don't think you see this
• 50:04
  coming particularly, but it all makes sense in retrospect, cuz
• 50:11
  you. Can always.
• 50:13
  And our and I've forgotten there's the cheat of that.
• 50:16
  You think she's gonna do it? Well, I was going to say that
• 50:19
  because throughout this I haven't mentioned it, but my eye
• 50:22
  keeps getting drawn to Lucy. It's not her.
• 50:24
  She's not saying or doing anything in the same.
• 50:26
  It might be the red dress. It's the red.
• 50:28
  The red dress is a very clever choice, but I'm always aware of
• 50:32
  her. You know she's there.
• 50:33
  It's a bit like the perception filter she's you just see her at
• 50:37
  the corner of your eye. It's very cleverly placed but
• 50:40
  but this, this but this is a very clever example of the show
• 50:44
  having its cake and eating it because the show has to say it
• 50:47
  is wrong to kill. People, you're better than this.
• 50:50
  But for its satisfying climax, it needs somebody to kill him.
• 50:55
  And it very cleverly rejects that as the answer, but provides
• 51:02
  it as the answer at the same time.
• 51:08
  Because, you know, I don't care what anybody says.
• 51:11
  If the ending had been that they put him in prison, even me as a
• 51:14
  terrible sort of fully liberal peacenik.
• 51:17
  As as somebody who's a consumer of drama, it's unsatisfying if
• 51:22
  he doesn't get killed, which what does that say about us and
• 51:25
  what we look for in our drama? But if it's just been right, go
• 51:28
  and put him in prison. You know, nobody says the ending
• 51:31
  of Battlefield is is you know, is baffling.
• 51:35
  Isn't it satisfying? Why isn't it can transport
• 51:38
  anywhere? And this, I think this is so
• 51:42
  well done. Tenant is fucking brilliant in
• 51:46
  this. Really, really good.
• 51:48
  Well, this is the sort of emotional intensity I never
• 51:50
  thought I'd seen the show. Yeah, yeah.
• 51:54
  Although we were here this time last year, last season, weren't
• 51:57
  we? We were doing this level of
• 52:00
  intensity in Doomsday, which we also did a commentary.
• 52:04
  On Gosh, we do the season finales.
• 52:08
  Gosh, I only saved the best for you, you know.
• 52:11
  Because I thought we were. Because because I chosen this
• 52:13
  and then you wanted me to do, We were going to do Midnight at one
• 52:15
  point. Weren't we?
• 52:16
  We're still going to hopefully and.
• 52:17
  We still go and say okay, there we go.
• 52:19
  How excited? He's so good.
• 52:21
  He's such a good actor. Did you see the look on Lose his
• 52:24
  face when the gun went off, You said.
• 52:28
  Dead behind the eyes. But an act of revenge, you know?
• 52:31
  Yeah, she I'll tell you what, she is cracking.
• 52:35
  She is. It's a really good performance
• 52:37
  that she gives, ashamed she didn't have a bigger row in the
• 52:40
  end of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 52:44
  And as an actor, if your agent rings up and goes, you know, you
• 52:47
  were so good in that Doctor Who. They were so pleased with you,
• 52:50
  they want you back for a scene. They're they're bringing the
• 52:53
  master back. And you go, they're bringing the
• 52:55
  master back. Oh, amazing.
• 52:57
  Yeah. And yeah.
• 52:58
  And they and so they want you back.
• 52:59
  Brilliant. And you, you read your first
• 53:01
  scene and realize it's your only scene.
• 53:04
  Come on, what is it you said earlier as a cruel business?
• 53:07
  It's a cruel business. That's so good.
• 53:10
  Well done everybody. Brilliant.
• 53:12
  And this is beautiful. Echoes of Star Wars here isn't
• 53:15
  there with. The IT is a bit higher.
• 53:18
  And what's what happens when he brings the Master back in the
• 53:24
  end of time is obviously he can't do the same ending, can
• 53:27
  it? He can't just hit him off again.
• 53:29
  So he makes that really unusual choice.
• 53:31
  Have the Master effectively save the diet.
• 53:34
  Yeah, yeah, it's great. But we know.
• 53:36
  But that does make sense within the dynamic that they have.
• 53:39
  And we sort of know that. And again, that's built into the
• 53:43
  law because of something that also didn't happen was that if
• 53:46
  Delgado had lived, his last story would have been the Master
• 53:50
  sacrificing himself to save the Doctor.
• 53:51
  So even though it didn't actually happen, it's that's
• 53:54
  still somehow vagal its way into the DNA of the show.
• 53:58
  And then we revisit it again. We did it again in well enough
• 54:01
  time in the Doctor folds what we see.
• 54:03
  I love. I love the two masters in that,
• 54:05
  yeah. The suggestion that they're at
• 54:09
  it, I mean. Steven Murphy.
• 54:15
  Yeah, that's lovely. Just to say I don't blame you,
• 54:21
  she goes. Who are you?
• 54:23
  Right, It's it's just basically a random act of kindness, isn't
• 54:26
  it? Very sweet.
• 54:30
  I suppose the inference is there is so you know.
• 54:32
  Oh, now I've forgotten about this.
• 54:34
  I remember texting back and forth with a friend of mine
• 54:38
  going, no, it's it's just a big face because this is where
• 54:44
  Captain Jack says he's the face of Bo, isn't it?
• 54:46
  And and I remember, just go, no, that doesn't no, that's not
• 54:51
  that. What.
• 54:55
  But actually, I don't. He's had so much plastic surgery
• 54:58
  at that point that his face is enormous.
• 55:02
  Again, I don't really mind it now, and I suppose it has a bit
• 55:05
  more resonance if it's Captain Jack, but I remember at the
• 55:08
  time, go what? No, that's just that seems to me
• 55:11
  an idea somebody's had at 3:00 in the morning and nobody's then
• 55:14
  gone. No, that don't do that.
• 55:16
  Where is Julie Gardner going? Russell, come on.
• 55:19
  Yeah, but it doesn't contradict anything we've seen before.
• 55:24
  No, but it was called the Face of Bo because it's a big face,
• 55:26
  not because it's been a face on a poster from the Bouchene
• 55:30
  Peninsula. But I love their reaction when
• 55:33
  they're just like, no, that's like us when A twist hits in
• 55:37
  Doctor Who. And of course they do have to
• 55:43
  address the cuz. I mean, John Barrowman now has
• 55:45
  white hair, doesn't he? So yeah, they do have to address
• 55:50
  the fact that if they want to bring the actor back, he's.
• 55:54
  Is going to age. It's a bit like the data
• 55:56
  problem, isn't it? In in Star Trek The Next
• 55:58
  Generation is that androids don't age but of course Brent
• 56:01
  Spinner is now face is very full now compared to 1987.
• 56:06
  You said in the last episode about the three shows taking
• 56:13
  place concurrently. Astonishing how much they
• 56:15
  informed each other. Then we're Tenant and Matt Smith
• 56:17
  going over to Sarah Jane with Martha going over to Torchwood
• 56:21
  and then they're all coming together here.
• 56:23
  But it takes a special kind of brain to keep keep all of that
• 56:30
  and juggle it all. Well, I took me ages to see that
• 56:33
  Reggie Yates is actually in this shot because he's credited in
• 56:36
  the episode I was going, why is he credited in the episode?
• 56:38
  He's not in it. He's in it through the window.
• 56:41
  So yeah, whilst Lucy Saxon gets a bum deal in the next, the next
• 56:46
  appearance, because you know she, she's not in it much.
• 56:49
  Reggie Yates gets an episode fee.
• 56:51
  For standing behind a window, that's that's that's not a bad
• 56:54
  deal as an actor. Well, my dealer knows him quite
• 56:58
  well and apparently he had a lot of other work at the time, you
• 57:00
  know. Yes, well, I remember being
• 57:02
  quite worried about his casting because he was very well known
• 57:06
  as a just as a personality as a as a DJ.
• 57:09
  And I thought, oh, is this doctor getting a little bit, you
• 57:12
  know, believing it's you're putting celebrities in it rather
• 57:15
  than you gotta stop doing this. Bonnie.
• 57:17
  Bonnie Langford, Billy Piper, Katherine Tate, Reggie Yates.
• 57:22
  Yeah, I know, it's weird. I never had an issue with
• 57:24
  Katherine Tate, but I think that's because cuz Reggie Yates
• 57:28
  wasn't known as an actor. Really.
• 57:31
  It was more that he was known as a DJ, do you know what I mean?
• 57:34
  But that shouldn't stop anything anyway.
• 57:36
  I'm all for comedians getting cussed and things, but he kind
• 57:42
  of was. He didn't really have a
• 57:43
  substantive role at any point in the season, did he?
• 57:46
  It was so interesting. It gets a bit to do in the
• 57:48
  Lazarus experiment, but that's that's kind of it.
• 57:51
  You get the impression that they probably wanted to do more with
• 57:55
  him in in this finale and and as you say, it got loads to do, so
• 57:59
  they have to, you know, grab him for a day and write him out.
• 58:02
  But it means that that character look, when you look back at the
• 58:06
  history of Doctor Who, you go, oh, they they obviously they
• 58:09
  never quite got to do with him what they intended.
• 58:14
  I really love the dynamic between Martha and Tish in the
• 58:17
  Lazarus experiment. I kind of wish we'd had a bit
• 58:19
  more of that because they really sparked off each other.
• 58:21
  Well, she's. A terrific actress as well, That
• 58:24
  bit we didn't mention, episode one, that bit where Tish is on
• 58:26
  the arts phone. She's about to tell them exactly
• 58:28
  where they need to be, and Martha just turns off the arts
• 58:30
  phone and goes whatever. Yeah, yeah, Tish is fantastic.
• 58:38
  Goo goo. Yeah.
• 58:41
  So here's the sort of awkward hug.
• 58:43
  OK, we're going to say goodbye. She's basically said she wants
• 58:47
  to go off to be with her family, so she's giving him a reasonable
• 58:50
  out. Yeah, that line there.
• 58:56
  I spent a lot of time with you thinking I was second best, but
• 58:58
  you know what? I am good.
• 59:00
  Yeah, and it's an unusual thing, isn't it?
• 59:04
  Because she does actually come back for a few and she goes into
• 59:07
  Torchwood, so you know she's leaving, but she's.
• 59:11
  But she's not. But as you say this is, this is
• 59:13
  the master stroke is you think that's the goodbye and and you
• 59:17
  know she then has this empowering thing of going hang
• 59:19
  on Doctor Who the man and the program.
• 59:24
  This is so beautifully written, just using a friend as an
• 59:29
  example. Yeah, I feel like Rosie Davis is
• 59:33
  just about his whole life looking at people and
• 59:35
  relationships, and he just pours it all into his work now.
• 59:39
  Well, that's a story as old as time, isn't it?
• 59:40
  When you look at, you look at a relationship from the outside
• 59:44
  and you go what the? It's usually.
• 59:46
  So you know, what the what the hell is she doing with him?
• 59:49
  Because he's, you know, she's great and he's awful and it, you
• 59:55
  know, I think we can all identify with that.
• 59:57
  Did you ever watch Cucumber? Yes did.
• 1:00:00
  You remember in the first episode you got that cup with
• 1:00:02
  that really toxic relationship when they're both bringing men
• 1:00:05
  home and they had that massive row with the other man in the
• 1:00:09
  house and you. Will.
• 1:00:11
  Oh yes, yes. Well, I watched that whilst I
• 1:00:14
  was going through something similar in my life and it was
• 1:00:16
  only watching that. I was like, Oh my God, this is
• 1:00:19
  nice, that's me. It was so resonant.
• 1:00:24
  Yeah, well, I mean, and that's what you have to do with Doctor
• 1:00:27
  Who. It's a ridiculous program.
• 1:00:31
  Anything that. Makes a viewer go oh God yeah
• 1:00:34
  I'm I'm seen or I I've seen. I understand that anything that
• 1:00:38
  helps to and she does that that's that's nice that's a nice
• 1:00:41
  little hero moment for her. Anything that helps to to ground
• 1:00:44
  the ridiculous in an emotional reality is vital.
• 1:00:47
  And I think that's that's, you know, where Russell T Davis has
• 1:00:49
  been so triumphant and is is not to be underestimated.
• 1:00:55
  The the smile that he gives her. So the first look he gave her
• 1:00:58
  when she went out, it was a bit weird.
• 1:01:02
  And then the smile he gives her when she comes back and gives
• 1:01:05
  him the space, like he totally respects her decision.
• 1:01:09
  And that's Tracy Simpson, isn't it?
• 1:01:10
  That's Tracy Simpson's hand. Or did we speculate about that
• 1:01:14
  ring? Yeah, painted nails.
• 1:01:19
  Well, and we do. We do get, but it was just going
• 1:01:21
  to be some random prison officer.
• 1:01:24
  Yeah. But we do at least get a payoff,
• 1:01:26
  don't we? And yes.
• 1:01:31
  And and of course, this was a this is a cheat, isn't it?
• 1:01:34
  Because it says Titanic and you go, oh, are they gonna do, are
• 1:01:38
  they gonna do a Titanic story? But of course it's not.
• 1:01:42
  It's the Titanic in space and you know, I'm a huge fan of
• 1:01:46
  Voyage of the Dam, so I think it is a really fun Christmas
• 1:01:50
  special. But the get out of that ship
• 1:01:52
  hitting the targets where you just sort of presses a button
• 1:01:54
  and it all comes. Together.
• 1:01:56
  But it's kind of, I mean, in a way you.
• 1:02:01
  You you kind of, you kind of want that actually because you
• 1:02:05
  don't want the next story to start with a sort of getting out
• 1:02:09
  of the thing that's got us in. I I think, I think Russell is
• 1:02:12
  very wise sometimes and going something that in the old days
• 1:02:16
  might have taken us a sort of 10 minute sequence that delays us
• 1:02:20
  getting into the story just goes no, we can we can press a magic
• 1:02:22
  button because actually that's not what this is about and so
• 1:02:25
  long as we don't press a magic button as a cheat.
• 1:02:29
  Of a major plot point with, you know, we're fine.
• 1:02:34
  What's interesting is that he did the same thing, didn't he?
• 1:02:37
  With Doomsday, you have Catherine Tate pop along at the
• 1:02:40
  end and that's your rinse in the next episode.
• 1:02:42
  Here you have the Titanic. And they did shoot a sequence
• 1:02:46
  with two sidemen coming up behind him in Journey's End.
• 1:02:49
  And then they thought, no, we're gonna take that out.
• 1:02:51
  They were right to, They were right to because it is nice
• 1:02:56
  having that. That repeating gag of what?
• 1:03:00
  What? What?
• 1:03:01
  You go, yeah, okay, cool. I know where I am now.
• 1:03:06
  But actually, that would have spoiled.
• 1:03:08
  That would have spoiled. Which was very, very big.
• 1:03:13
  Yeah. And brave to go.
• 1:03:15
  Actually, that thing that we normally do, let's not do that
• 1:03:18
  this time because it doesn't serve this particular moment in
• 1:03:21
  this particular episode. I think they tend to judge those
• 1:03:24
  sorts of things very well. You know, there's attention to
• 1:03:28
  detail. It's makes this era so very
• 1:03:35
  strong. I was really happy to see frame
• 1:03:39
  Rajman back both in Series 4 and in Torchwood.
• 1:03:43
  Some odd decisions were made cuz they brought her back and then
• 1:03:46
  she was essentially an evil doppelganger in one and shifted
• 1:03:52
  off to a side plot in the doctor's door.
• 1:03:54
  The doctor's door. She just basically gets to walk
• 1:03:56
  around in a quarry with some with some poor fish guy who
• 1:04:00
  dies. She gets a much better showing
• 1:04:02
  in the stolen earth, I think. Yeah.
• 1:04:04
  She's sort of, I mean, I just, I just sort of thought thanks, but
• 1:04:08
  I mean if this is what I'm going to do, I'll just do an episode
• 1:04:12
  of Casualty. And then in Torchwood she gets 1
• 1:04:15
  brilliant episode called Reset where she's kind of front and
• 1:04:19
  center. Then she's turned into an old
• 1:04:21
  woman in one episode, and then she is again shunted off to the
• 1:04:25
  sidelines in the last one. Yes I'm it's it's curious
• 1:04:28
  because the torch would opens up a whole big issue of course
• 1:04:31
  because Torchwood is the adults Doctor Who spin off which brings
• 1:04:34
  with it problems all of its own. And I I mean I'm we don't need
• 1:04:38
  to go into too much detail but I I, you know it felt to me that
• 1:04:43
  because I remember I had an English teacher once who said we
• 1:04:46
  could we could use swear words in our.
• 1:04:48
  In our stories if we wanted to. So the first one I wrote was
• 1:04:52
  repeat with them and he said, look, he said actually they
• 1:04:57
  didn't work because I said you could use them, you used them
• 1:05:00
  and you used them too much and it's gratuitous and it was a
• 1:05:03
  lesson to that. And with talk to It, I felt
• 1:05:07
  right. We could do Doc 2 with the sort
• 1:05:10
  of shackles removed. And so somebody goes, well, the
• 1:05:12
  second story shall be about an orgasm monster and gosh.
• 1:05:17
  I was in a sketch show at the time and I actually wrote a
• 1:05:20
  sketch and we should about. Torchwood.
• 1:05:23
  And it was. You know, how should we defeat
• 1:05:26
  the monster? This week we shall defeat it by
• 1:05:28
  swearing at its face. The root of the swear word, the
• 1:05:30
  better. And you know, what's this week's
• 1:05:32
  alien? It's an alien that manifests
• 1:05:35
  itself by disguising itself as a pair of women's knickers.
• 1:05:38
  You know, because it was all just seemed so.
• 1:05:41
  And and it felt to me like the television equivalent in in that
• 1:05:44
  regard of writing boobies on a calculator and turning it upside
• 1:05:49
  down. You know, it wouldn't feel like
• 1:05:51
  to me. It felt like I don't want to
• 1:05:53
  write off the new adventures. I think they've informed a lot
• 1:05:56
  of the new series, but when they were told you you could write
• 1:05:59
  Doctor Who for adults, now suddenly carrots have been
• 1:06:02
  tortured in horrible ways of swearing.
• 1:06:07
  And enough. The Adult Show winds up being
• 1:06:10
  quite immature. Yes, absolutely.
• 1:06:13
  And and I only mentioned that as context of the fact that
• 1:06:16
  therefore for me it was slightly awkward that Martha crossed over
• 1:06:21
  into torture because I could, I could sort of live with torture
• 1:06:24
  as an adjunct to the show. Even though Captain Jack was in
• 1:06:27
  it, he was, he was still a sort of cheeky guest character.
• 1:06:29
  And he was, and he was the character in Doctor Who who was,
• 1:06:32
  you know, closest to being doing the sort of naughty stuff.
• 1:06:34
  So it seemed sort of acceptable to go okay, he's going to have
• 1:06:37
  this new adult Doctor Who spin off.
• 1:06:40
  But to. To bring Martha into it, I found
• 1:06:43
  slightly awkward because then you go, well, I'm taking one of
• 1:06:48
  the key figures from the children, friendly doctor into
• 1:06:52
  adult. You're encouraging.
• 1:06:53
  Adults and I noticed that she didn't do any of the swearing or
• 1:06:57
  any of the she was immune from the effects of torture being
• 1:07:01
  placed just beyond the watershed.
• 1:07:04
  But yes. And and actually The Sarah Jane
• 1:07:06
  Adventures with its stories about homelessness and and all
• 1:07:09
  sorts of other things, very immature.
• 1:07:10
  Actually seem to be more adult in it in a way.
• 1:07:13
  When they were side by side and you had the the children's show
• 1:07:17
  being extremely mature and the adult show being very immature.
• 1:07:19
  I mean, it's great for Sarah Jane, but it's a little bit
• 1:07:23
  embarrassing to Torchwood. Yeah, Sarah Jane is definitely
• 1:07:27
  much more my preference. But then I, you know, I am an
• 1:07:29
  older person who remembers Doctor Who being a particular
• 1:07:32
  way. So you know, I'm informed by my
• 1:07:34
  own. Environment and previous
• 1:07:36
  experience. So I'm I'm careful not to sort
• 1:07:38
  of point the finger and say whether it's necessary, right or
• 1:07:41
  wrong. I'm just talking about my own
• 1:07:43
  personal experience. But I I also, I'm a bit old
• 1:07:46
  fashioned. I think the key to the success
• 1:07:48
  of Doctor Who is that it has to be suitable for children.
• 1:07:51
  So it gets you when you're a kid, but you retain that
• 1:07:53
  affection for it when you're an adult.
• 1:07:55
  And as a kid, you want it to be all grown up and violent and
• 1:07:59
  sweary, but actually? The fact that it can't be too
• 1:08:03
  grown up in violence is very is what way?
• 1:08:05
  So So you actually end up liking it more for reasons that you
• 1:08:10
  don't think you do. Because actually if it had been
• 1:08:13
  those things that you wanted it to be as a kid because kids want
• 1:08:16
  things to be grown up, you wouldn't actually have enjoyed
• 1:08:18
  it as much. So I think it's, you know,
• 1:08:23
  careful what you wish for and also the the children friendly
• 1:08:28
  thing about Doctor Who. But you sort of resent a bit as
• 1:08:31
  a kid because you want to be all grown up.
• 1:08:33
  It is actually one of the fundamental parts of its
• 1:08:37
  success. The knock on effect with torture
• 1:08:40
  for me was I came to not expect much from it.
• 1:08:44
  So when it pulled its act together, I was really surprised
• 1:08:48
  and impressed when it. And there's some fantastic
• 1:08:51
  episodes of Torture and I and I'm.
• 1:08:53
  I think I mentioned in the previous episode, I'm watching
• 1:08:56
  Children of Earth again. And I think, I think it's an
• 1:08:59
  astonishing piece of television, you know, Doctor Who related or
• 1:09:03
  not, I think it's a crap. It's an amazing piece of work.
• 1:09:07
  It's a brilliant, confident, fabulous piece of topnotch
• 1:09:13
  television that sort of deserves to stand on its own 2 feet,
• 1:09:15
  really. Torture is a funny creature,
• 1:09:20
  isn't it? It is.
• 1:09:21
  It is. It's four series that are all
• 1:09:23
  completely different. But you know what?
• 1:09:29
  A time to be alive. And also making television is
• 1:09:34
  really hard. And making television that is
• 1:09:39
  imaginative and outside the box and.
• 1:09:42
  You know, doesn't necessarily fit into any categories and is
• 1:09:45
  related to this weird phenomenon that is a Doctor Who is.
• 1:09:51
  You know, I think any anything we talk about where we might say
• 1:09:55
  we don't particularly like it or or it doesn't quite work for us
• 1:09:58
  that that is within the context of it of of something that is a
• 1:10:02
  phenomenal achievement and and it's qualified by the fact that
• 1:10:06
  it's part of this whole thing that is absolutely amazing and
• 1:10:10
  and brilliant. But we're so we're talking about
• 1:10:14
  sort of qualified lack of success, as it were.
• 1:10:21
  And a lot of it's purely a matter of taste.
• 1:10:25
  It is entirely subjective, yes, because I know some people were
• 1:10:30
  taught as their preference. So there are all those people
• 1:10:32
  out there. Well, let's tell you, we've got
• 1:10:34
  two impossible tasks to do here. Now.
• 1:10:38
  One is to go back through the tweets and see what people have
• 1:10:41
  to say. Every time I do this, you put
• 1:10:44
  your head in your hands. It's not too terrified, don't
• 1:10:49
  worry. And then we will list our three
• 1:10:51
  favorite things this episode, and then you can go to bed.
• 1:10:58
  So I've got a few comments, Ian Clark says controversially.
• 1:11:03
  I don't mind the ending, because the scientific mechanism for it
• 1:11:05
  is plausibly layered into the story that Martha puts in the
• 1:11:09
  legwork with a narrative pulling a clever misdirect as to what
• 1:11:12
  her true goal is. Obviously the Dobby Dr. is
• 1:11:15
  terrible though. I think all he says about the
• 1:11:18
  ending is is fair and what he says about the Dobby Dr. is not
• 1:11:25
  unfair. That's fair, Fraser Gregory
• 1:11:31
  said. Fraser, does he say something
• 1:11:33
  like? I love the Dominator as me.
• 1:11:36
  Well, when he hears you talking about the quarks, he will be
• 1:11:39
  very excited if you did mention it in the last.
• 1:11:41
  Episode the Quark. The Quark The fans?
• 1:11:43
  Yes, he says, the Doctor. Is Jesus good ending or Deus Ex
• 1:11:49
  machina taken literally too far? Well, I mean, I think as we
• 1:11:53
  said, the science is kind of worked into the plot.
• 1:11:57
  So it's not a Deus Ex machina in that sense, in the way that,
• 1:12:00
  say, opening up the TARDIS and and making blonde fell thatch.
• 1:12:05
  Turn back into an egg which you know which comes out of
• 1:12:08
  absolutely nowhere and there are and or you know covering
• 1:12:11
  yourself in all the medicines in the world you know that the.
• 1:12:15
  So you know there are a few of those to be there.
• 1:12:18
  This one I think did feel like that at the time because I think
• 1:12:22
  we, you know we we would be unsurprised if it was some sort
• 1:12:26
  of magic button. But actually it's more artfully
• 1:12:29
  deployed than that. I just think in terms of a
• 1:12:34
  anesthetic. The the you know Lazarus from
• 1:12:39
  the flames them thing seems a bit a bit religious for a show
• 1:12:46
  and I'm talking as an atheist now so I know and I know I have
• 1:12:48
  I have friends who like I know people who like Doctor Who are
• 1:12:51
  religious and so again this is I can only ever be personal but
• 1:12:54
  for me the the the show you know is is is quite rejecting of
• 1:13:01
  religious ideology and and. And and the idea of magic as
• 1:13:08
  well that that has to be called as sort of quite scientifically
• 1:13:11
  rigorous and that and that science and reason always win
• 1:13:15
  out over superstition and magic. And it it, and with no offense
• 1:13:19
  to religious people here in in in a lot of Doctor Who writing,
• 1:13:24
  religion is seen to be in the same campus superstition and
• 1:13:28
  magic. And science and rationality is
• 1:13:31
  seen to be contrary to that and that that we we we you know
• 1:13:35
  we're we're we're encouraged to embrace rationality and reason
• 1:13:39
  and and science rather than go back to the the the dark ages of
• 1:13:43
  superstition or believe in magic and and and the plot should work
• 1:13:47
  like that as well. So seeing a sort of Jesus like
• 1:13:52
  resurrection seems counterintuitive to the flavor
• 1:13:58
  and tenor. Of Doctor Who.
• 1:14:00
  Now, I don't know whether that's a fair criticism, but that would
• 1:14:04
  I, when I think about it, that that feels to me like my gut
• 1:14:07
  reaction to that that that moment where it's all angelic
• 1:14:13
  and magicky was it is interesting, as in the same
• 1:14:16
  season as gridlock, where in the Confidential, yeah, Rossi Davis
• 1:14:20
  addresses the facts, you know, that they, they all have a faith
• 1:14:24
  in that episode. But that was him saying that.
• 1:14:29
  Why is faith exclusive to religious people?
• 1:14:38
  I think that moment in gridlock is astonishing and I love it and
• 1:14:43
  it's because I think it's quite easy.
• 1:14:46
  And again, I'm not a religious person.
• 1:14:47
  I wish I was. I actually respect religion in
• 1:14:51
  in in in many ways I I understand the Dawkins argument
• 1:14:54
  of going you know, you can't sacrifice your humanity and
• 1:14:57
  reason for something that you can't prove.
• 1:14:59
  And people who follow a religion blindly can do very bad things
• 1:15:02
  to other humans because they they believe in this creed
• 1:15:06
  rather than the reality. In front of that, I understand,
• 1:15:08
  you know, the religion has been used for as a smokescreen or a
• 1:15:12
  controlling thing or or or an excuse to do bad things.
• 1:15:14
  I I get all of that. I get all the.
• 1:15:16
  The arguments against religion, they're well rehearsed in many
• 1:15:18
  dramas and satires and all of that.
• 1:15:20
  But I also actually quite admire people who who and and in this
• 1:15:25
  increasingly narcissistic age in which we live, people who
• 1:15:28
  subsume them themselves and their own needs and personality
• 1:15:32
  into something that is about a greater good and something where
• 1:15:35
  you humble yourself in in in front of a a code or a creed
• 1:15:39
  that makes you. Be part of a wider community and
• 1:15:44
  and and can be a moral guidance which you know and and and using
• 1:15:47
  religion as a as as as a control is very bad but using it as
• 1:15:51
  something that means we all we all have a common goal about
• 1:15:55
  common humanity and common decency in a common set of
• 1:15:57
  morals is is is the other side of that coin and that's a good
• 1:16:00
  one So I was going somewhere with this and I've I've lost
• 1:16:04
  track I went but it's it's still about the religious side of
• 1:16:07
  things what did you say you. You asked a question 100 years
• 1:16:11
  ago. It's probably not the day seeing
• 1:16:14
  Scrolls. The question was the doctor?
• 1:16:18
  Was Jesus good ending or their sex?
• 1:16:21
  Yeah, but then we moved, then we moved.
• 1:16:23
  But it's no, you said something when we were talking about
• 1:16:28
  whether Doctor Who's religious or not about gridlock.
• 1:16:33
  Ah, that's it. But in grit and and and I think
• 1:16:36
  it's very easy. And Russell's name isn't it.
• 1:16:38
  It's very easy. And I see comedians do it all
• 1:16:41
  the time and I've been guilty of it.
• 1:16:42
  It's very easy to take the piss out of religion.
• 1:16:44
  It's very easy to satirize. It's very easy to, you know, to
• 1:16:50
  knock down, you know, big institutions and all of that
• 1:16:53
  sort of thing. And I I think it's sometimes.
• 1:16:57
  Again, it's it's, it could be quite unkind and disrespectful.
• 1:16:59
  Now when you're knocking against something that's a prevailing
• 1:17:01
  wisdom, you know, it's, it's quite rebellious.
• 1:17:04
  But in this day and age, it's actually not that rebellious to
• 1:17:06
  not be religious. And I think it's easy to be glib
• 1:17:10
  about people who are and to be disrespectful in a way that I
• 1:17:13
  would have happily done 20 years ago.
• 1:17:14
  And I wouldn't know for all the reasons I've just explained
• 1:17:16
  about, you know, admiring some elements of of of of religious
• 1:17:21
  views. And what I what I think is so
• 1:17:23
  clever about that but in gridlock is that.
• 1:17:26
  He shows the power of that community, that that where they
• 1:17:29
  listen to the old rugged cross and they and they cry and they
• 1:17:32
  have that moment where everybody is brought together.
• 1:17:36
  It is beautiful. It is unifying.
• 1:17:39
  It shows the power where religion could be used for good,
• 1:17:42
  but also brilliantly acts as a metaphor for why they don't move
• 1:17:53
  it. It gives them comfort.
• 1:17:56
  It gives them solace, but it also is what paralyzes them.
• 1:18:01
  It traps them. And so that is a really clever
• 1:18:04
  writer because you go he's showing.
• 1:18:08
  And this is where a lot of modern criticism really gets,
• 1:18:11
  because some people might look at that and go he celebrates
• 1:18:14
  religion, I'm not religious, other people might go he's.
• 1:18:17
  He's showing religious to be a paralyzing force.
• 1:18:21
  I am religious. That's insulting.
• 1:18:22
  Now what he's doing as a clever it he's going both of those
• 1:18:25
  things are true. Yeah.
• 1:18:31
  Make if it were. And actually there are so many
• 1:18:33
  things in our life that are paradoxical.
• 1:18:35
  So many things that I believe you know instinctively, but that
• 1:18:39
  intellectually I know can't be that true.
• 1:18:42
  Because by my reason tells me that they can't.
• 1:18:45
  But my heart tells me something else and that's we must embrace
• 1:18:48
  those things. Because life is full of
• 1:18:50
  contradictions and if anyone thinks they've got the absolute
• 1:18:52
  answer, they're a potential despot and a good writer doesn't
• 1:18:56
  go. This is the one way and it's the
• 1:18:59
  only way. And if it's a, if it's a as a
• 1:19:01
  consumer you go, well, they're saying something that I don't
• 1:19:04
  agree with. Therefore this is wrong or it's
• 1:19:06
  offensive. No, it's it's anything that
• 1:19:08
  shows that the paradoxical nature of our.
• 1:19:11
  You know instinct in our intellect and and and the way
• 1:19:14
  that our society is formed is, is, is something that is working
• 1:19:18
  as a drama on on on a on a on a really thoughtful and
• 1:19:23
  intelligent and thought provoking level.
• 1:19:25
  And I I think that bit in in gridlock is is absolutely as
• 1:19:29
  extraordinary for that because it is, it is sympathetic and yet
• 1:19:34
  satirical. It it is human and yet
• 1:19:37
  intellectual at at at exactly the same time.
• 1:19:41
  But I don't think the sequence in last of the time it was is as
• 1:19:44
  clear. No, no, I mean it's interesting
• 1:19:50
  what what left out at me when we were watching it this time and
• 1:19:52
  bear in mind, you know we we have to talk through it so, so
• 1:19:57
  we missed some of the subtle. But what really hit home,
• 1:20:00
  because I got the subtitles on, is that at the end of that city
• 1:20:04
  sequence where he floats and is impervious to laser beams.
• 1:20:07
  You know and I love John Sims brilliant reaction where he's
• 1:20:10
  kind of scared it's the Doctor saying I forgive you and you go
• 1:20:16
  oh, that's what it's all about. It's not it's not the it's not
• 1:20:20
  the floaty floaty that's important here.
• 1:20:23
  It's the it's the it's the act of forgiveness.
• 1:20:27
  That's what Russell needed to get to and if he needs to get
• 1:20:31
  through that by a sort of as that's you know Easter Monday,
• 1:20:36
  then then so be it. But but as an as as an aesthetic
• 1:20:42
  it, it does sit awkwardly to me within the tone of what what I
• 1:20:47
  expect from from Doctor Who. I do go on.
• 1:20:51
  I don't know why people listen to a word I.
• 1:20:52
  Say, I am absolutely fascinated. Do not all of you do this?
• 1:20:57
  You do this every time you come on.
• 1:20:59
  Geez, I wouldn't censor a word, you know?
• 1:21:05
  And you'd think you'd think I was something.
• 1:21:07
  The amount I talk, you'd think I was somebody that liked the
• 1:21:09
  sound of their own voice and thought they had something
• 1:21:12
  worthwhile saying. I don't.
• 1:21:13
  I really don't. But I seem to have this
• 1:21:16
  compulsion to. Well, I just opened my mouth and
• 1:21:18
  it falls out. It's terrible.
• 1:21:19
  Oh God, it's awful. The thing is, people like to
• 1:21:23
  hear it. Well, I'm well, if only to go.
• 1:21:26
  At least I'm not that guy. So, all right, well, I'll move
• 1:21:31
  on. I'll move on to Jason Thompson's
• 1:21:34
  comment which says I wish the reset switch hadn't been
• 1:21:39
  telegraphed right at the start of life of the terminals, but it
• 1:21:41
  was so obvious everything was going to be undone.
• 1:21:43
  Rather glaringly, the big reset at the end is treated like
• 1:21:46
  everything is fine and back to normal apart from the Jones
• 1:21:49
  family. But overlooks the fact that
• 1:21:51
  everything up to the activation of the paradox machine still
• 1:21:54
  happened. He's thought about this.
• 1:21:55
  So Howard Suction was PM assassinated.
• 1:21:58
  His cabinet? Oh, there's another part
• 1:22:01
  announced. The first contact with the
• 1:22:02
  Toclefane arranged the event. So most of the world still
• 1:22:05
  witnessed the Toclefane appearing and vaporizing the US
• 1:22:08
  president. Then Saxon declared himself the
• 1:22:10
  leader of the world and then apparently vanished.
• 1:22:13
  Big stuff to just ignore. Yes.
• 1:22:16
  So it means it's. Again, it's because he could
• 1:22:21
  have chosen any time to reset it to really.
• 1:22:23
  He could have come up with some baffle gap as to as to why.
• 1:22:26
  But he clearly chose that because of the impact it would
• 1:22:29
  have on our regulars. The regulars needed to have gone
• 1:22:32
  through what they went through. Bad news for Vivian Rook in it.
• 1:22:37
  She's still dead. The president's still dead.
• 1:22:41
  And you know, but I, you know, I think he'd gone to great pains
• 1:22:44
  to show that the politicians, you know, in televisual terms,
• 1:22:48
  deserve to die because they were, they were all people,
• 1:22:52
  opportunists. I can imagine Terence Dick's
• 1:22:57
  watching this going. I should write the target of
• 1:23:01
  this. There's a lot of threads
• 1:23:02
  hanging. I could do this in a paragraph.
• 1:23:05
  I don't think Terence would have approved of the reset.
• 1:23:10
  I don't know. That's just an instinctive
• 1:23:11
  response. It's difficult.
• 1:23:17
  It's difficult. Jason's, I mean, Jason makes a
• 1:23:20
  very convincing case, but I managed to sort of not mind
• 1:23:26
  because it makes again the impact it has on our regulars
• 1:23:31
  seems to sort of justify that positioning.
• 1:23:33
  And I can kind of in the same way that I can forget that the
• 1:23:36
  Scarrison appeared outside the Houses of Parliament.
• 1:23:39
  You know, you kind of go, I can, I I I.
• 1:23:43
  It's funny, isn't it? The things that we allow
• 1:23:45
  ourselves to live with. And again, sometimes it's
• 1:23:47
  entirely due to personal taste. I've been doing a lot on the
• 1:23:50
  Hinchcliff era recently, and purely objectively, a lot of the
• 1:23:53
  Hinchcliff era Episode Fours are unforgivable in terms of plot.
• 1:24:00
  But I forgive the Hinchcliff era almost everything because of the
• 1:24:04
  quality of the production and the the writing in terms of the
• 1:24:09
  language and the character and the tone in a way that I
• 1:24:13
  wouldn't in Errors I'm less naturally drawn to and I cannot
• 1:24:20
  justify that apart from to say that I can with that.
• 1:24:25
  And I dealt with that. I think we all have that bias
• 1:24:28
  about the errors that we love. Okay, I've got a interesting
• 1:24:33
  question here. James H asks.
• 1:24:36
  Is the glowing magic floating Doctor?
• 1:24:39
  And not to coy in the mutants, that's explaining why the Time
• 1:24:43
  laws actually sent the Doctor on that mission in the first place.
• 1:24:47
  Lovely, but no. But he's not unlike, is he?
• 1:24:52
  He's not unlike. Crash Dummy with the top of fame
• 1:24:57
  have been a better or worse replacement.
• 1:24:59
  Daleks and the other side of the time law Time War in series one.
• 1:25:04
  It's it's funny I'm I'm I'm sure I'm not betraying a confidence
• 1:25:07
  when I say this. I I remember Rob Sheerman saying
• 1:25:11
  to me that when you know the Daleks weren't going to be in
• 1:25:14
  Dalek he said you know cuz cuz that was yes as you alluded to
• 1:25:18
  the the the talk of fame were going to be the replacement for
• 1:25:21
  the Dalek. Russ said.
• 1:25:22
  You know, I've, I've come up with this monster and I've, I've
• 1:25:25
  done a drawing of it, Rob said. They show me this drawing and
• 1:25:28
  it's it's basically it's a circle you know, OK, because I,
• 1:25:36
  I I think the Chocolate Fain work because they are an adjunct
• 1:25:40
  to the master. I think you know that there's a
• 1:25:42
  reason the Chocolate Fain haven't come back is that I
• 1:25:45
  think they work within the context of that story.
• 1:25:50
  But I I don't think a a childish talking football thing and they
• 1:25:59
  may have had a different voice and personality and all that
• 1:26:01
  sort of thing in in Dalek. Look I'm I'm pleased with the
• 1:26:05
  way it turned out. Dalek needed to have a Dalek.
• 1:26:08
  Thank God it did. I'm I'm sure they'd have made it
• 1:26:12
  work. But I think the the way that
• 1:26:14
  we've got it, the way that we've got it is is the best way to
• 1:26:19
  have it. And I I don't feel the need to
• 1:26:23
  see the talk of fame again. They work within the context of
• 1:26:25
  that story. And I think if it had just been
• 1:26:28
  a talk of fame story, it's not a talk of fame story, it's a
• 1:26:31
  master story and the talk of fame are, you know, his, the
• 1:26:36
  things that that that sort of back him up.
• 1:26:39
  But I don't think it would have been strong enough that that
• 1:26:41
  that I don't think they're strong enough to work
• 1:26:45
  independently. Has a complete side note.
• 1:26:48
  I'm one chapter away from finishing Rob's target
• 1:26:52
  novelization of Dalek and it is magnificent.
• 1:26:58
  He's a he's a very clever, clever man.
• 1:27:00
  Honestly, anybody who hasn't go and read that book it it's the
• 1:27:05
  back stories of those guest characters are fleshed out.
• 1:27:09
  I'm going to use the word again with such economy and with that
• 1:27:14
  sort of dark. Dark humor of his That's
• 1:27:18
  brilliant. He's great.
• 1:27:20
  And of course, as we record this today, it's just been announced
• 1:27:22
  that we are getting target novels of the three specials hot
• 1:27:26
  on the heels of their television.
• 1:27:29
  I'm gonna have a book on my shelf called Giggle Great.
• 1:27:34
  Okay. Let me sort of cherry pick some
• 1:27:37
  of the others. Otherwise you will never go to
• 1:27:39
  bed. Well, no, I don't mind.
• 1:27:40
  I've got that. But I can understand if you
• 1:27:41
  wanna keep it shorter but don't do it on my account.
• 1:27:44
  I'm at home on my own and I'm happier doing this than I
• 1:27:49
  probably would be doing anything else.
• 1:27:52
  Charming man? Jim Allenby asks.
• 1:27:55
  At the time. There was wild speculation about
• 1:27:57
  who picked up the ring at the end.
• 1:27:58
  It turned out to be Missus Miss Trefuses.
• 1:28:01
  A prison guard. Nothing exciting at all.
• 1:28:04
  But who did you think had picked up?
• 1:28:05
  Who did? You picked up the ring.
• 1:28:09
  Well, I mean, I I do. You know what?
• 1:28:12
  I I wondered if it mattered and if it was just a nice visual you
• 1:28:17
  know the red the red nail varnish and the you know next
• 1:28:23
  time we saw the master it would just be alluded you know one of
• 1:28:26
  one of my acolytes risky but but then I but then I thought about
• 1:28:29
  it and thought no they're going to they're not going to ignore
• 1:28:32
  that they they they will bring that in but I I had no idea but
• 1:28:39
  but I kind of like the mystery it's it's great isn't it that
• 1:28:41
  that even the hand had some a sort of talking point because of
• 1:28:45
  of the of the of the rosy red. There was a suggestion, wasn't
• 1:28:51
  it was an idea that it might have been.
• 1:28:53
  I think we entertained the idea. It might have been Lucy and that
• 1:28:58
  you know maybe what she'd done. She'd done deliberately and I
• 1:29:01
  think and and I wouldn't have been surprised if it was that I
• 1:29:04
  was quite pleasantly surprised that it wasn't because I think
• 1:29:06
  that's that that was better for her, her ending.
• 1:29:12
  But I I don't know what I expected.
• 1:29:15
  But there was there was no way it could ever be something
• 1:29:18
  hugely satisfying, because there was no way it was going to make
• 1:29:20
  any sense beyond, oh, it's that random person we've never seen
• 1:29:23
  before. Because, I mean, I heard all the
• 1:29:25
  usual names doing the rounds. The Ronnie.
• 1:29:28
  You know, everybody always wants everything.
• 1:29:30
  To be the Ronnie, the Sarah Jane Adventures.
• 1:29:37
  The people went, it's the Ronnie and you go, no, it's somebody
• 1:29:39
  called Ronnie, you fucking morons.
• 1:29:42
  Honestly, if Jinx Monsoon turns out to be the wrong name after
• 1:29:45
  one, I'll be like I'm on board. If if who does Jinx Monsoon?
• 1:29:50
  Yes, yes, that would be funny. The only person that could out
• 1:29:55
  camp Kate. Omara.
• 1:29:57
  Do you know I've never seen Jinx Monsoon in anything?
• 1:30:01
  But I hugely talented. But I think.
• 1:30:04
  I think Jinx Monsoon has a fabulous name.
• 1:30:08
  But. That season of RuPaul does stand
• 1:30:10
  out. Let's surprise you that I've
• 1:30:14
  never seen an episode of RuPaul's Drag Race.
• 1:30:17
  Not at all. It's fun, but I'm.
• 1:30:23
  I'm looking forward to to be. And you know, I bet you in a
• 1:30:27
  year's time I'll go. Well, of course, I've always
• 1:30:29
  been a massive fan of the work of Jigs Monsoon.
• 1:30:35
  Daniel Knight asked. What a war, isn't it right?
• 1:30:38
  Why do fans? Bitch about Jody stopped being
• 1:30:42
  sidelined in the time of his children and yet don't seem so
• 1:30:44
  involved with the tenant is sidelined and then the and then
• 1:30:47
  dogified in this well let's leave away the the antagonistic
• 1:30:55
  phraseology. I mean I don't bitch about, I
• 1:31:01
  don't say I try not to say anything no I don't say anything
• 1:31:04
  negative on online. So my my views on I know that
• 1:31:09
  that this wasn't the suggestion here my my views on the time was
• 1:31:14
  children are unrecorded. But I will posit this that that
• 1:31:27
  well one. I think it's more elegantly
• 1:31:28
  worked into the to the plotting and the the writing and we
• 1:31:35
  talked about how the exposition works a little bit more better,
• 1:31:38
  a little bit better. And also it's not to facilitate
• 1:31:45
  a 15 minute monologue about the back story.
• 1:31:50
  Essentially you know the equivalent of holiday snaps of
• 1:31:54
  you know a new invention of continuity.
• 1:31:59
  But, but I do. I do take you know, I do take
• 1:32:03
  the I I I think that the comparison is not an unfair one
• 1:32:10
  that's being drawn and going well.
• 1:32:11
  If you you know if you don't like one, you, you, if you are a
• 1:32:15
  fan of Russell T Davis, and if you're one of the people.
• 1:32:18
  You were just saying it that celebrates Russell T Davis and
• 1:32:22
  disparages Chris Jibnell. You have to acknowledge that
• 1:32:26
  that there is a similarity, a similarity in what they've done
• 1:32:29
  in both of those things. So.
• 1:32:31
  We did acknowledge that while we were watching it as well, didn't
• 1:32:34
  we? That it was an odd choice to
• 1:32:35
  Yeah, but I was What's the name of the tweeter?
• 1:32:37
  Sorry. It's Daniel Knight.
• 1:32:40
  No, sorry. Yeah.
• 1:32:41
  Daniel Knight Yes. So So I I'm getting from the the
• 1:32:45
  sort of phraseology that Daniel is a is a fan of Chris Jim and
• 1:32:49
  Jody Whittaker and and has felt slightly slighted by the tenor
• 1:32:53
  of the criticism of that and is and is defending his particular.
• 1:32:58
  And I think and I think it's not it's not unfair of him to do so
• 1:33:03
  and I'm sorry that that he feels that you know a lot of the
• 1:33:08
  conversation out there has has has kind of been a dig at as
• 1:33:12
  either a story or an era or whatever that that he
• 1:33:15
  particularly likes and that there might be a little bit of
• 1:33:18
  double standarding in there. I I do think that it does.
• 1:33:24
  We've said this in the episode that it does seem a bit of an
• 1:33:27
  odd choice to remove your very popular lead actor from such a
• 1:33:32
  vital episode to to such a big proportion.
• 1:33:37
  And if you're gonna, if you're gonna criticize you know the the
• 1:33:41
  masters holiday steps, you've got to criticize W the the the
• 1:33:45
  house doctor. But why do people bitch about
• 1:33:50
  one and not the other. It's it's it's it's probably
• 1:33:57
  because because we we love what we love and we don't like what
• 1:34:02
  we like and we try to intellectualize it sometimes and
• 1:34:05
  again often it's it's just a matter of taste.
• 1:34:08
  But if if I was forced to defend Russell T Davis's writing over
• 1:34:14
  Chris Chibnall's writing, I would say I, I, I I think it is
• 1:34:18
  more artfully deployed when Russell does it and the action
• 1:34:23
  doesn't just kind of stop and and also there are emotional
• 1:34:29
  consequences for it. The whole strange thing about
• 1:34:32
  the time, this children thing is that the doctor essentially goes
• 1:34:35
  through all of that and then goes oh, you know that seismic
• 1:34:39
  rewriting of the show's DNA hasn't affected me, essentially
• 1:34:43
  does. Isn't that the conclusion drawn
• 1:34:44
  at the end It's kind of Oh yeah, I'm still who I am and you go
• 1:34:47
  then, then that seems an awful lot of effort to go to to have
• 1:34:51
  to make no emotional journey whatsoever.
• 1:34:54
  Whereas I think with with Russell it's sort of deployed
• 1:34:57
  for a for a a reason of of the emotional arc of the character
• 1:35:01
  that I think is more successful. It's very interesting.
• 1:35:04
  It is fair in both cases. The show runners in the very
• 1:35:10
  next season finale. Johnny Zen gave us 2 David
• 1:35:15
  Tennants to make up for it, and the Vanquishers gave us three
• 1:35:18
  Jody Whittakers to make up for it.
• 1:35:20
  Yeah, they were saving them up. Okay, here he is.
• 1:35:27
  He's always got a comment for you.
• 1:35:29
  Johnny Morris, Johnny Morris. My main disappointment with Last
• 1:35:34
  of the Time was that we only got one song.
• 1:35:37
  Should the whole thing have been a Dennis Potter style musical?
• 1:35:41
  Well I mean as I said I love having music in Doctor Who.
• 1:35:46
  I love a music. Do you know I I quite like, I
• 1:35:49
  like it when you go on YouTube and people have done Doctor Who
• 1:35:52
  montages to songs and things like that.
• 1:35:54
  I love all of that. I I love, I like, I mean I'm a
• 1:35:57
  big fan of Dennis Potter but I I I like, I like the bit in in the
• 1:36:02
  last episode of The Prisoner where they got everybody down to
• 1:36:04
  all you need is love. I think.
• 1:36:07
  I think having a a popular track and juxtaposing it with the
• 1:36:12
  insanity of Doctor Who is is I'm I'm happy to see more of that
• 1:36:18
  sort of thing. I mean because they're quite
• 1:36:21
  often in sort of casualty in Holby City they'll have a a sad
• 1:36:24
  montage where they to a drippy song well which I which I think
• 1:36:27
  is a bit you know morkish and a bit twee but but to have but to
• 1:36:31
  have a a a a sort of crazy song you know underscoring bizarre
• 1:36:38
  situations. Dr. Allows you to do that and
• 1:36:42
  and yeah, more a musical episode of a musical episode's almost
• 1:36:46
  become a cliche now but. Eat my hat.
• 1:36:48
  If there is not a musical episode in that first year to
• 1:36:51
  get what, I'll say something, yeah.
• 1:36:53
  Let's revisit this conversation. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:36:56
  It's almost a cliche now, but I mean, maybe the thing to do
• 1:37:01
  instead of doing a musical episode, is to do an episode
• 1:37:03
  where there's no dialogue, but it's all entirely like a pop
• 1:37:06
  video where it's all just underscored by by music and it's
• 1:37:11
  all the load of set pieces. That would be a challenge.
• 1:37:13
  That would be more of a challenge than a musical
• 1:37:15
  episode. Now I think that's the next
• 1:37:17
  step. More of a comment here, but I
• 1:37:20
  think it's one we both agree with.
• 1:37:22
  Mark Donaldson says Sims Master is the first time that Doctor
• 1:37:26
  Who remembers. What the character was meant to
• 1:37:29
  be the dark contrast to the Doctor.
• 1:37:31
  Where Tennant is a charming ladies man, SIM is a cruel
• 1:37:34
  misogynist. Where Tennant is fizzing with
• 1:37:36
  energy, SIM is manic and unpredictable.
• 1:37:40
  I agree with that. I agree with that.
• 1:37:42
  I think that's a really eloquent summation.
• 1:37:46
  Oh, there's a there's a ranking question here.
• 1:37:48
  So many brilliant moments, says Daniel Romsley.
• 1:37:52
  But Martha's exit and 15 satellites scene are just the
• 1:37:55
  best. In terms of Sims performances,
• 1:37:58
  do we prefer the urbane, sophisticated master of this
• 1:38:01
  finale, the Mad Dog Homeless master in The End of Time, or
• 1:38:05
  the spiteful Delgado Light Master in The Doctor Falls?
• 1:38:09
  See, I don't think he does do urbane and sophisticated in
• 1:38:13
  this. Which is, which is, which is why
• 1:38:15
  I'm slight, which is why it's it's.
• 1:38:18
  It's slightly nonplussed me in in places even though there's
• 1:38:21
  nothing wrong with the performance.
• 1:38:24
  I think he works as the really feral you know, homeless
• 1:38:31
  homeless chic master vibe later and and I and I love the the the
• 1:38:37
  face the the the sort of double act with Missy.
• 1:38:40
  That's where I I think John SIM works best for me.
• 1:38:45
  Okie Dokie? The British alien asked.
• 1:38:47
  What is it saying about the Tony Blair era?
• 1:38:50
  Well, I mean, we we touched on this as well.
• 1:38:52
  It's it's not. I think it's not an accident
• 1:38:56
  that you have this, you know, smiley, slick media operator of
• 1:39:04
  a politician who turns out to be, you know, not all he seems.
• 1:39:09
  You know, Russell's very good at that sort of thing, and I think
• 1:39:11
  Doctor Who should do that sort of thing.
• 1:39:13
  But I think it does it better best when it does it with that
• 1:39:16
  kind of cheeky, cheeky, subversive tone that Russell
• 1:39:20
  does, that when it does it, when it's very earnest and sort of
• 1:39:24
  wags its finger or tries to make a point.
• 1:39:26
  I think Doctor Who absolutely must have social comment in it,
• 1:39:30
  but it has to be the social comment of a sort of naughty
• 1:39:33
  graffiti rather than a leaflet. I like this simmering anger, and
• 1:39:39
  some of that as well. Do you remember the speech that
• 1:39:41
  Ann Reed had at the end of years and years?
• 1:39:44
  The what? Sorry.
• 1:39:45
  The speech that Ann Reed had in it, Yeah, amazing.
• 1:39:48
  Beware the where the clowns. But yeah and yes maybe I've
• 1:39:53
  actually slightly undersold rustling there is because yes,
• 1:39:56
  he always he has. There's a cheekiness to to a lot
• 1:40:00
  of his subversiveness But yes, let us not ignore the fact that
• 1:40:05
  it is also very very angry. But again I think it's a
• 1:40:08
  testament to how that he does it because anger is a turn off.
• 1:40:12
  So it's it's digestible anger. It is anger disguised or it's
• 1:40:18
  there's a spoonful of. Scampishness to help the the
• 1:40:22
  anger go down, do you know what I mean?
• 1:40:23
  Because because if something is overly preachy, overly earnest
• 1:40:27
  or to cross, then you're that that that hampers you getting
• 1:40:32
  your message across. Whereas if if if you do it with
• 1:40:36
  a sense of verve and satire and, you know, sort of cheekiness,
• 1:40:45
  it's it's it subversiveness, it's I think it's much more
• 1:40:51
  effective. What?
• 1:40:52
  What always makes me laugh and it doesn't make me feel smart,
• 1:40:55
  is when people miss the joke. So when the Slovene turned out
• 1:40:59
  to be, you know, political windbags and people, they're
• 1:41:03
  just farting aliens. They're terrible.
• 1:41:04
  I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, OK let's see.
• 1:41:13
  Estee O Double R That's a mouthful.
• 1:41:16
  I was never really on board with.
• 1:41:18
  Martha's crush. Some episodes it felt shoehorned
• 1:41:21
  in. Therefore her second exit felt a
• 1:41:23
  bit odd. She more or less said.
• 1:41:25
  You didn't realize we've got a massive crush on you, so I'm
• 1:41:27
  leaving you because you don't see me that way.
• 1:41:30
  I didn't read it that way, no. But I do understand what is the
• 1:41:34
  estate double O you know unease with the with the dynamic
• 1:41:45
  because it it is a you know it is a it is a hard one for the
• 1:41:50
  character if you're introduced as automatically you have to not
• 1:41:54
  be a carbon copy of Rose. So of course they they change
• 1:41:57
  the dynamic up and go well it's a it's an unrequited you know
• 1:42:01
  the doctor still moving over Rosen and Martha's whole vibe is
• 1:42:04
  that she's wanted to be noticed isn't that's that's a that's a
• 1:42:07
  real that's a really disadvantageous thing to me but
• 1:42:10
  you totally understand why that's the next dynamic that the
• 1:42:14
  show needs But I can understand why it doesn't work for some
• 1:42:23
  people because you know she's heavily compromised by what is
• 1:42:27
  what has gone before and what it needs to be reacting against and
• 1:42:33
  and and it does mean poor old Martha suffers a a a little bit
• 1:42:38
  because it's it's not a very attractive character trait to be
• 1:42:42
  the the the the unnoticed one is it you know.
• 1:42:46
  And he does say she's brilliant and all of those things that the
• 1:42:49
  Doctor says to his companion, but it isn't the same
• 1:42:52
  relationship he had with both Rose and Donna.
• 1:42:54
  Maybe that's why. Yeah, Well, yeah, cuz again,
• 1:42:59
  when Donna comes in, whoever it was gonna be the next companion,
• 1:43:03
  you have to go. Well, we've done the one that
• 1:43:04
  they both love each other and can't say anything.
• 1:43:07
  We've done the one where she loves him and he doesn't notice.
• 1:43:09
  So what do we do? Oh well, they're just mates and.
• 1:43:12
  And and you are well, great, yeah.
• 1:43:15
  And that, that, and that's much that's immediately Much more
• 1:43:17
  fun. It's more fun and what I love
• 1:43:20
  about the Doctor, Donna, Donna is she doesn't really believe in
• 1:43:24
  herself and he's always telling her, you know you're brilliant
• 1:43:28
  and and that just got me on board with her straight away
• 1:43:30
  that she's always got those doubts about herself and he just
• 1:43:34
  and the other very clever thing about Donna is that she's awful
• 1:43:38
  but. Again, we said this and we take
• 1:43:42
  such a good writer to go, Yeah, she's awful, but she's great,
• 1:43:46
  yeah. Well, I'll tell you what, I'm
• 1:43:48
  going to round this off with two comments, one very negative and
• 1:43:53
  one very positive. OK?
• 1:43:56
  Just so how divisive this episode can be.
• 1:43:58
  So you've got half a dead Raven on your head and half a dead
• 1:44:02
  dove on your head. You're being the equal forces of
• 1:44:05
  light and darkness. Here we go.
• 1:44:07
  So the Lord Reverend Cole. Ingenious Mo.
• 1:44:11
  Great names here. I really hated it.
• 1:44:14
  The shriveled Dr. Messiah Dr. was just silly.
• 1:44:18
  I was never a fan of Martha and the whole get everyone saying
• 1:44:20
  the doctor thing was embarrassing.
• 1:44:23
  It really is the worst of Russell T Davis.
• 1:44:26
  Gosh well. I can thank you, but I don't
• 1:44:31
  agree with you. I I no, but I can see why.
• 1:44:34
  I can see why it would provoke that reaction.
• 1:44:36
  I think particularly the the everybody chanting the doctor
• 1:44:39
  thing if if if you're not, if you're not dialed into sort of
• 1:44:43
  the tone of of what that's after.
• 1:44:47
  I can absolutely see why you might think that's sort of
• 1:44:51
  pretty mawkish and horrible, but it works for me because of what
• 1:44:55
  he's driving at, what we've we've talked about before to a
• 1:44:59
  certain extent. But I can understand if you're,
• 1:45:02
  if you're not, if you're not plugged into that, why, why it
• 1:45:06
  would be a real turn off. I get.
• 1:45:08
  I get that. And then Jackson Reese, who's a
• 1:45:11
  wonderful podcaster. I love his podcaster to help TV.
• 1:45:16
  It says lots of the Time Lord stretched everything Doctor Who
• 1:45:19
  could be and was when it aired. I absolutely loved it.
• 1:45:23
  It's always a special story for me.
• 1:45:25
  I wish you got into more detail there, cuz I'd like to hear
• 1:45:28
  that. Yeah.
• 1:45:30
  Well. But we can say it's doing new
• 1:45:32
  things, isn't it? And new things are gonna be
• 1:45:35
  divisive. Bold, yeah.
• 1:45:37
  And of course, you know when you're building on a success,
• 1:45:42
  you have to build on what's gone before, but also do different
• 1:45:44
  from what's gone before. And that's always gonna be
• 1:45:47
  slightly jarring, because when you like something, you sort of
• 1:45:51
  want it to be like it was when you liked it.
• 1:45:54
  But of course, if it does that, it gets repetitive and boring
• 1:45:56
  and familiarity breeds contempt. So it has to do something
• 1:45:59
  different. But because it's different and
• 1:46:01
  then doesn't necessarily feel quite right, which is why it's
• 1:46:04
  always rewarding to come back and revisit this stuff when
• 1:46:08
  you're freed of the shackles of of the expectations of the time
• 1:46:11
  and the momentum of the time. And you can just watch your
• 1:46:13
  story, sort of on its own terms, and really enjoy it, you know?
• 1:46:17
  What I love about the Rossi Davis era is it really.
• 1:46:21
  Some of it really looks back at what Doctor Who did before and
• 1:46:25
  updates it a bit. You know, based on the siege,
• 1:46:27
  impossible planet, you know, things like that.
• 1:46:30
  But at the same time it completely catapults it into the
• 1:46:34
  modern age and does fresh and interesting things.
• 1:46:37
  I'll just put one example out of a hat asking that question.
• 1:46:41
  A companion has left with the Doctor.
• 1:46:44
  What questions are asked from the family and friends left
• 1:46:47
  behind we even thought of in 26 seasons before?
• 1:46:51
  Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah.
• 1:46:54
  The fact that Francie really hates him.
• 1:46:58
  And Sylvia, yeah, yeah. She Well, we'll find out.
• 1:47:05
  Well, okay. Our last task then, is to
• 1:47:08
  Another thing is going to be too difficult.
• 1:47:10
  Choose three recommendations for the two episodes, yeah.
• 1:47:15
  Why don't you go first. I think that overall feel of
• 1:47:23
  urban thriller that it is given by the director and of course
• 1:47:28
  that's prompted by the script but I think so that sort of city
• 1:47:35
  underground sharp suits you know machine guns on the streets Jack
• 1:47:40
  booted police people stuff happening in politics the sort
• 1:47:43
  of it's it's like a sort of scifi episode of Spooks and I
• 1:47:47
  think that that that that fits so well within Doctor Who and
• 1:47:51
  yet is never quite been done like that within Doctor Who.
• 1:47:54
  And I think it fits that story. And it's the first thing I think
• 1:47:57
  of when I think of that story, is that kind of atmosphere given
• 1:48:00
  to it by the director. And it's a really nice feeling
• 1:48:06
  that the story has. It's a lovely tone that the
• 1:48:09
  story has that I think really suits the script as well.
• 1:48:13
  Then my first thing is I sent you a message saying I think
• 1:48:16
  Rusty Davis is the master of the penultimate episode Cliffhanger
• 1:48:22
  Bad Wolf. You've got the Daleks scared cuz
• 1:48:25
  the Doctor's coming. In Army of Ghosts, you've got
• 1:48:29
  the side or promise of the sidemen and the Daleks And in
• 1:48:32
  the Stolen Earth, well, who's David Tennant going to be next
• 1:48:35
  week? You know, he absolutely is
• 1:48:37
  brilliant. But I think my favorite, and the
• 1:48:39
  one I watched again and again in the lead up to the last episode
• 1:48:43
  is this one. I think the whole set piece from
• 1:48:46
  when he says here comes the drums, the the balls come down,
• 1:48:49
  they stop murdering everybody. The Doctor's been tortured.
• 1:48:53
  Martha's on her own. It's so climactic, It's so
• 1:48:57
  exciting. I think he just knows how to
• 1:49:01
  generate that feeling of excitement in people and to get
• 1:49:05
  back next week. So that's my first.
• 1:49:09
  I think that's a very, very good choice.
• 1:49:11
  I'm also going to choose a sequence and it's everything
• 1:49:14
  that happens between and including The Master on the
• 1:49:19
  television saying every Doctor and then turning the teddy
• 1:49:25
  around and seeing the stick of dynamite and then then pulling
• 1:49:30
  away under that that the hail of gunfire and ending up in the the
• 1:49:35
  underpass underneath the bridge. That whole sequence of the
• 1:49:39
  explosion. Martha telling them I don't
• 1:49:41
  care. I'm going to you know I'm going
• 1:49:42
  to go and get my family that the heroic moment of of of Martha's
• 1:49:48
  dad and with Francine yelling at him the and I'm sorry that the
• 1:49:53
  the the sexy mysterious lady doing her take aim, fire and all
• 1:49:59
  of that. All that whole sequence I think
• 1:50:03
  is every moment from the bit, the bit of silence when they
• 1:50:06
  pull up and it's what's gonna happen.
• 1:50:08
  It's, you know, so from the sound, the music, the shooting
• 1:50:12
  of it, the acting, the aesthetic, the pacing,
• 1:50:15
  everything about that sequence, when I'm watching the episode, I
• 1:50:18
  look forward to that bit coming up, and I thoroughly enjoy every
• 1:50:22
  second of it when it happens. Every frame was considered,
• 1:50:26
  doesn't it? In that editing suite?
• 1:50:28
  Yeah, absolutely cracky. My second one is gonna be Lucy
• 1:50:33
  Saxon, cuz I think it's really hard to be a character that
• 1:50:38
  compelling with that little dialogue.
• 1:50:43
  And the idea of giving the Master a wife is enticing
• 1:50:47
  anyway, but there's sort of very creepy, dark undertones.
• 1:50:52
  They had the bruise on her eye and like I said, my eye was just
• 1:50:56
  constantly drawn to her in every single scene.
• 1:50:59
  And the fact that she gets the fire, the gun at the end as well
• 1:51:03
  is a nice part. She's just a brilliant,
• 1:51:05
  brilliant character. Well plays.
• 1:51:07
  That's not supposedly well written.
• 1:51:08
  But she doesn't get a lot to say.
• 1:51:10
  No, she's it's it's she's really good.
• 1:51:13
  Yeah. I mean there's the scope there
• 1:51:15
  in the script, but it takes a, it takes a good actress.
• 1:51:18
  And I, you know you wonder how much they saw of that in the
• 1:51:21
  edit. It went, my God, she's doing
• 1:51:22
  some great stuff here let's let's pop this in.
• 1:51:24
  Let's pop that, you know, because I suspect if you read
• 1:51:28
  the script and look to how many lines she's got, you go, Christ,
• 1:51:32
  there's nothing here. But of course it it can be
• 1:51:37
  layered into the script instead. But also it means that the
• 1:51:42
  actress has obviously turned up and done a lot of work and
• 1:51:47
  definitely deserves the screen time that she gets and puts in
• 1:51:51
  some makes them really interesting and as you say,
• 1:51:54
  quite alarming in places choices.
• 1:51:56
  Weird moment where she dances at the end of the sound of robots
• 1:52:00
  as everybody's being killed. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:52:03
  I wanna know what's going on in her head at that point.
• 1:52:06
  Well done, Alexandra Moen. It's a very good piece of work.
• 1:52:13
  Yeah, well, I mean I'm support for choice, cuz this is my last
• 1:52:16
  one is I love Vivian Rook, Nicola Maccauliffe.
• 1:52:26
  I think I will choose her actually, because I think she's
• 1:52:33
  brilliant and it's a it's a real master class in you know what to
• 1:52:38
  do with a very limited it's it's a beautifully written part and
• 1:52:41
  it's it's not a small part. It's just it's condensed and
• 1:52:44
  obviously it's a good enough part to get a a very good
• 1:52:47
  actress to do it. I was going to choose that that
• 1:52:49
  piece of music the all the strange, strange creatures,
• 1:52:52
  because I love that and as I say, I, I, I I play it a lot and
• 1:52:56
  pretend to be a Doctor Who because I'm a child.
• 1:52:58
  But I'm I'm drawn this time. I'm drawn to to to to Vivian
• 1:53:03
  Rook because I think because of the way that that the
• 1:53:08
  interactions that she has go through every, every tone in
• 1:53:13
  such a small space stuff. The breezy she's oh, she's a
• 1:53:16
  breezy, larger than life character.
• 1:53:18
  She's going to be fun. Oh God no.
• 1:53:19
  She's doing the conspiracy secret stuff.
• 1:53:23
  Oh, that's quite exciting. That's new there.
• 1:53:25
  Oh, she's absolutely terrified. And she's saying the threat of
• 1:53:28
  the master. Oh, and then she gets a sort of
• 1:53:30
  slightly dark comedy death. It's all there and yet, and it
• 1:53:35
  all works together. So it's a it's a testament to
• 1:53:38
  how many different things you can do within the, you know, the
• 1:53:42
  context of Doctor Who. And and it's still all weirdly
• 1:53:45
  fit together because the fact that some of these shows have
• 1:53:49
  this broad range of things going on and they don't come across as
• 1:53:54
  a total mess shows a real control of of of tone and tempo.
• 1:54:00
  And I think again, you'd only notice this if it was bad.
• 1:54:03
  So the fact that all this stuff happens and we don't notice it
• 1:54:06
  unless we're really thinking about it and talking at great
• 1:54:09
  length about it shows so much of the work that is done on some of
• 1:54:13
  these shows. Because making good television
• 1:54:14
  is hard, especially when it's good television.
• 1:54:17
  It's asking a lot more if it's the people making it than most
• 1:54:20
  television, the the we, you know, I think we sometimes take
• 1:54:27
  for granted just how cleverly some of this stuff is, is is
• 1:54:33
  pulled off and I think that's a great, that's a great example of
• 1:54:37
  it. So yeah, Vivian Rook and and
• 1:54:39
  that that, you know all all the different things that that just
• 1:54:43
  one thread gives us. And I always forget that you see
• 1:54:48
  her again when she's recorded. That message, it's always a
• 1:54:51
  surprise to me. Well, she even gets a comedy
• 1:54:53
  death as well. That's so much.
• 1:54:57
  Let's not. Let's not forget how many times
• 1:54:58
  she's exploited that scream. Great.
• 1:55:01
  Good for her. And yeah, and she's she's good.
• 1:55:03
  She's good Value Nicola Mccauliff.
• 1:55:05
  And by brief meeting with her as anything to go by, she's a good
• 1:55:08
  egg. Get the impression she doesn't
• 1:55:11
  need the work in those conventions, however, that she
• 1:55:13
  just loves coming along and telling her stories.
• 1:55:17
  I'm very generous. She's very generous with
• 1:55:19
  everybody, with her time. Good.
• 1:55:23
  Yeah. And she was excellent in this
• 1:55:24
  stage play I saw with her and Julian Glover and Sheila Reed.
• 1:55:28
  I mean, what a triumvirate of talent, yeah?
• 1:55:32
  Then for my last one, I'm going to choose Martha's exit.
• 1:55:37
  Yeah, because I think it is a, I think Russell Davis.
• 1:55:41
  We talked about this in Season 2, the sort of long game with
• 1:55:44
  the Doctor and Rose. And you know the punishment
• 1:55:48
  stroke pay off at the end of that.
• 1:55:50
  And I think he's doing the same thing here.
• 1:55:52
  And I think he knows he's going to cheese some people off in
• 1:55:56
  scenes in the Shakespeare code and things like that where the
• 1:55:58
  doctors in the bed alongside Martha completely dismissing
• 1:56:01
  her, you know, and she's giving him moon eyes.
• 1:56:06
  But Martha does turn a corner halfway through the season where
• 1:56:09
  she just goes, you know, I've had enough of this and I'm, I'm,
• 1:56:11
  I'm off and he's like, no, I'm giving you a key and and that's
• 1:56:14
  sort of moment where. He's really acknowledging her.
• 1:56:18
  Then we get human nature and the family of blood, which plays on
• 1:56:21
  the whole thing of unrequired love in a whole new way and
• 1:56:24
  brilliantly. And then we're sort of leading
• 1:56:27
  into this, where she really comes into her own and decides
• 1:56:31
  that her family is actually more important than anything.
• 1:56:36
  And so many of these companion endings, I think, are so
• 1:56:40
  overblown. Or I'm not not sure how to feel
• 1:56:44
  about them. I don't know how to feel about
• 1:56:47
  Amy and Rory going back into the past and the Doctor not being
• 1:56:51
  able to visit them when they could probably just go to
• 1:56:53
  another town. I'm not sure how to feel about
• 1:56:57
  Clara Roswald traveling around time and space cheating death in
• 1:57:01
  a diner with the woman at the end of time.
• 1:57:04
  And I'm certainly not sure how to feel about Bill Potts
• 1:57:09
  traveling time and space with her lesbian puddle lover.
• 1:57:12
  I don't. I don't think about any of that
• 1:57:15
  stuff. It's just all such weird
• 1:57:16
  endings. I know the the Rose ending broke
• 1:57:20
  my heart. The Donner ending broke my
• 1:57:22
  heart, and Ossie Davis is the person to do that.
• 1:57:25
  But this is the one which is just really positive and subtle
• 1:57:30
  and and usually written very real.
• 1:57:34
  As I said, I've used it in my life to sort of demonstrate
• 1:57:38
  somebody get out of that relationship.
• 1:57:41
  It really, really moves me and I.
• 1:57:42
  What's baffling is it shows you how much I kind of matured as a
• 1:57:46
  TV watcher because I found it a bit dull at the time and now I
• 1:57:50
  just think it's really celebratory.
• 1:57:51
  The way she sort of walks out the tile is with a head held
• 1:57:54
  high, having coming out of that season as a better person.
• 1:57:58
  And you know, it's very different from when Graham and
• 1:58:02
  Ryan decide to go Revolution of the Daleks.
• 1:58:05
  It almost just feels like, well, we've had enough.
• 1:58:06
  We're off. Yeah, and Dan in in power of the
• 1:58:09
  Doctor, and I did love all those characters, but he just like,
• 1:58:12
  you know, I had one dangerous scrape.
• 1:58:15
  So I'm off, despite the fact that I've been having dangerous
• 1:58:17
  scrapes ever since I've stepped into the TARDIS.
• 1:58:20
  None of it his. His is entirely I'm going on
• 1:58:23
  tour. But none of it rings true.
• 1:58:27
  And Graham and Ryan are very much We've decided not to renew
• 1:58:30
  our contracts because we were being underused.
• 1:58:34
  I didn't lose my Grahams. Do you know what?
• 1:58:36
  I would like to keep traveling, but he's my grandson.
• 1:58:39
  I'm going to go with him. I didn't really like that.
• 1:58:41
  But yeah, so this is my favorite, and I think it's worth
• 1:58:45
  celebrating for all of those reasons.
• 1:58:47
  It's a great scene and I think your advocacy is is on the money
• 1:58:52
  there. I I completely buy that and I
• 1:58:54
  yeah, quite right as it is. It's it's it's great and it's
• 1:58:57
  it's refreshing and it's original and it's it's it's it's
• 1:59:01
  it's a good version of of of how to have a companion exiting.
• 1:59:06
  Well, yeah, bang on. The station now.
• 1:59:09
  I'd love to unpick with you what you think about all those other
• 1:59:11
  bizarre endings. But not today.
• 1:59:15
  Yeah, we. Well, we will.
• 1:59:17
  We will, I'm sure, yes, visit those.
• 1:59:20
  I'm not sure how I feel about them to be honest.
• 1:59:23
  I mean I I feel that the the, the, the Clara one and the Bill
• 1:59:29
  one are essentially the same The the the person is died but is
• 1:59:34
  miraculously sort of resurrected.
• 1:59:36
  But as a compromised version you know they can't go back to their
• 1:59:40
  own life because of the price that has been paid for the
• 1:59:43
  resurrection and so they end up traveling through space and time
• 1:59:49
  with a certain Suffolk undertone of a of a character they've
• 1:59:56
  encountered. So there's there's a lot of
• 1:59:58
  similarity and I in in in a set up that I'm find slightly
• 2:00:04
  unsatisfying as a as a resolution anyway and and have
• 2:00:08
  that happen twice seems a bit you know I don't I don't buy the
• 2:00:13
  oh I'm relieved my favorite character.
• 2:00:16
  Isn't actually dead if what it means is they aren't human
• 2:00:19
  anymore, don't have a heartbeat, and can't do any of the nice
• 2:00:22
  things that we do as humans. It means that the much loved
• 2:00:25
  actress, you know, lives to perform that character another
• 2:00:30
  day. But the the reality of the for
• 2:00:32
  the actual character is I'm not a person anymore.
• 2:00:37
  Seems to me an odd, tonally an odd victory.
• 2:00:41
  And there's just so only so many times I can accept.
• 2:00:45
  This beloved character is dead. Oh, no way they're not.
• 2:00:50
  That's why I just stop believing anybody's dead.
• 2:00:53
  Yes, indeed. It's an act of diminishing
• 2:00:56
  returns, unfortunately. And in fact, when Clara died in
• 2:01:01
  the Raven one, I thought, well, I know she's gonna come.
• 2:01:03
  I know she's gonna come back. Seen that cover of Doctor Who
• 2:01:06
  magazine where she was dressed up as the waitress.
• 2:01:08
  And that hadn't happened yet. In fact, you know what I'll very
• 2:01:13
  quickly say in the woman Who fell to Earth when Grace died
• 2:01:17
  and we had the funeral and that Coda and I was like, oh okay,
• 2:01:20
  we're doing something different now.
• 2:01:22
  People stay dead in this version of Doctor Who whereas I because
• 2:01:28
  because all of the posters and all the publicity said, well
• 2:01:31
  these are the new companions and this is the new Doctor and you
• 2:01:34
  go, well who's the one person that, well she's toast isn't she
• 2:01:39
  You know she's she's not been announced as a as a regular
• 2:01:43
  character. And she did appear in the last
• 2:01:46
  one as a ghost. You know, Toby, this has been an
• 2:01:55
  epic. For our recording.
• 2:01:58
  Well, I'm sorry about that for a 90 minute.
• 2:02:04
  So sorry. I'm so sorry.
• 2:02:06
  You dare apologize. It has been an absolute treasure
• 2:02:09
  as ever. Well, I hope your listeners
• 2:02:11
  enjoy it. I can almost guarantee that they
• 2:02:14
  will, and I'm hoping the thing we mentioned within the
• 2:02:18
  recording that you will pop back.
• 2:02:20
  I know you have already covered Midnight, but I'm sure we can
• 2:02:23
  unearth something. Treasures as we go through it.
• 2:02:27
  It's quite possibly my favorite, David said.
• 2:02:32
  An era story, Yeah. So I turned left, actually.
• 2:02:37
  Well, that's yes, it's hard for me to choose a favorite, cuz
• 2:02:43
  there's so much that's that's good.
• 2:02:45
  But yeah. And at the time I think I was
• 2:02:49
  that run of two and four to school reunion to go in the
• 2:02:53
  fireplace to me just seen oh so but actually and and whereas
• 2:02:57
  Midnight the first time I you know I thought it was
• 2:03:00
  interesting and curious but I thought it's not really like an
• 2:03:03
  episode of Doc 2. Midnight is one that as every
• 2:03:06
  time I've come back to it I've I've enjoyed it more and more
• 2:03:10
  and more and more. It's one that's really grown on
• 2:03:13
  me and it's I think it's probably one of my favorites
• 2:03:18
  too. But I I do like all the season
• 2:03:20
  finales as well and human nature and family blood.
• 2:03:23
  But no, Midnight is is very, very special.
• 2:03:26
  Perfectly convinced that Lindsay Coulson's character is the
• 2:03:29
  biggest monster in the entire series?
• 2:03:32
  Oh. She terrifies me.
• 2:03:35
  Oh, she's so good. And that that brilliant piece of
• 2:03:37
  acting when she says I knew it was her, but then then then at
• 2:03:42
  least looks a little bit ashamed as well.
• 2:03:45
  So I. Wanted to ring someone's neck,
• 2:03:48
  you know, Reach into the telly more.
• 2:03:50
  So good. So good.
• 2:03:52
  Well, we'll unpick that in the future.
• 2:03:55
  I just need to say thank you so much for your time again.
• 2:03:58
  You're an absolute, Jim. Thanks for having me.