Latest / Follow the Leighder / Peyote Politics: US Policy and Native Religion | Dr. Lisa Barnett

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Peyote Politics: US Policy and Native Religion | Dr. Lisa Barnett · Follow the Leighder

• Leigh/@followtheleighder: Howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leighder. I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and y'all, I went down south and I brought us a great guest today. We have Dr. Lisa Barnett. Dr. Barnett, thank you for being here. Welcome. Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Thank you. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Folks, Dr. Lisa Barnett is the associate professor of religious history at Phillips Theological Seminary in Tulsa, Oklahoma. She has personally taught me. We did a class, actually a couple of classes actually. ⁓ But the main one that I lean on heavily now in my writing is your history and religious class. That is your focus. When we talk about American history in... Dr. Barnett's lens. It is also this heavy lens of how did the religion affect the religious landscape, the different denominations, the leaders. And of course, you wrote this awesome book and we just as we followers listeners, we learned that I did not get the accurate cover. But this is her book Peyote Politics. That's her correct book. She wrote a book on Peyote Politics to talk about exactly what the title is the the politics of Peyote, which was ⁓ used in indigenous worship. And I wanted to bring that more to light because there is quite a bit about indigenous worship that American citizens just don't know. So before we get into the material of the book, can you talk to us about your upbringing in Oklahoma? How did you get into religious history, indigenous history? Who are you? Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yeah, yeah. So I actually grew up in a small town in north central Oklahoma called Blackwell up in K County ⁓ surrounded by the Tonkawah and the Ponca and then in another county over the Osage and the Oto, Missouri. And so several, you know, tribal affiliations around where I grew up. And ⁓ after a of teaching high school speech and debate and that got me down to Texas, I decided to step away from that career thinking I was going to be called to ministry. So I went to Bright Divinity School. But it was there that I really sort of fell in love back in love with the Academy again and particularly the religious history classes that I was taking. And so I went ahead and got ordained in the Christian Church Disciples of Christ but I really I was feeling more that my ministry call wasn't to parish ministry but was to the Academy. So I went back and got another master's degree to help me try to get into graduate school programs and it was during that degree at Bright that I got to cross over and take some history classes with masters and PhD level students at TCU in Fort Worth because Bright sits on their campus as well. And so when I was applying, ⁓ since I already sort of had an in, I applied just to the US history program at TCU. And that's where I also decided to diversify my academic portfolio with just doing history and not necessarily religious history so that I could combine. the two. And I think that was where, and that was where I was doing an independent study with another TCU history person while we were in our doctoral program, but we were taking a class with a professor at Bright and we read a book by George Tinker and he made mention of the Native American church up near his home in Pawhuska. Leigh/@followtheleighder: No, I... ⁓ Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: And I'm like, wait, I grew up one county over from there. I took Oklahoma history. Why have I never heard of the Native American church? And so that then became the basis for my master's thesis at Bright, which actually ends up being chapter six in this book. And then I took it to the dissertation level and just kept expanding and expanding with more and more information ⁓ to produce what now is my first monograph. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and it's a very well done book. ⁓ And folks, I'm really excited to bring this topic forward. I also want to just touch on, you said that you grew up near the Osage. And for my listeners, I want to connect that Osage. If y'all remember about a year two ago, there was a movie called The Killers of the Flower Moon. ⁓ And it very much centered on the Osage and white settlers, oil, property, land rights. ⁓ So this... ⁓ again trying to expand and connect everything and ⁓ but this Native American church like you said a lot of folks haven't heard of it especially because is it just one umbrella what what is it? Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Mm-hmm. ⁓ Yeah, so it encompasses the practice of peyoteism in a variety of different forms. Some Christian syncretism in some aspects. But it becomes the sort of umbrella term when it gets incorporated by the state of Oklahoma first of all in 1918 to protect the religious freedom. of peyotist in Oklahoma to use it. And then as more more states and the federal government are still trying to suppress the practice, it picks up chapters among various tribes. And then it becomes sort of the ⁓ North American peyote church instead of just the Oklahoma peyote church. And so now you have chapters. So you would have the Comanche chapter, the Osage chapter, the Oto, Missouri chapter, you know, of the church. So yeah, Native American Church is this legal terminology for incorporation that encompasses all of the different tribal peyote practicing churches on their lands. Leigh/@followtheleighder: it. So that's a great segue. What is this peyote? Peyote politics that you wrote your book on and I read and here's the tab tab. What is peyote? What is it? Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Right, peyote is a small ⁓ spineless cactus. There's a natural growth region in southern Texas from kind of the Rio Grande areas where it's prominent, but also into northern Mexico in the desert there. The tops of the cactus, the little button tops, are harvested, they're cut off, not the whole cactus, but the tops are cut off. and they are ⁓ dried and ingested as part of this ceremony ⁓ or made into a tea. really is, I want to preface, it is a sacred medicine by all indigenous peoples. It is recognized as a sacred medicine for healing and it then becomes part of a ritual practice healing, for individual healing, for communal healing, when ⁓ ceremonies need to be called together within the U.S. and how it's celebrated. And at different times during this all-night ritual that goes from sundown to sunup, there is the ingestion of these dried buttons sitting in front of a fire with drumming and hymns singing in the language of the people hosting. And it's this mild hallucinogen experience. Actually, it's more what people say, synesthesia, where you sort of hear colors, the senses are sort of mixed up so that when you're seeing the fire, you also then get to hear the fire speaking to you. You hear creators speaking through the fire. So it's not an addictive drug. ⁓ And I do want to preface that. There's no evidence ever of any addiction. and no deaths ever recorded from the ingestion of peyote, but it is this mild sort of hallucinogenic agent that helps individuals get in touch with creator during a specific ceremony. And part of that ritual practice of peyote-ism as a religion is also there's an ethical way to follow, right? If you do peyote, you don't do alcohol. if you practice peyoteism you don't do drugs, right? So there's this sort of moral teaching as well along what they call the peyote road. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and thank you because, ⁓ yeah, it definitely gets, I've heard some demonization of it, of, it says intense is, you know, a lot of like maybe even tying it to ayahuasca or, and then some people say, no, it's more like tobacco. And so there's just a lot of confusion on what it is. And you talk about how it's used for spiritual practices. It is a sacred use. When, Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: So for the people that are practicing peyoteism, is it typically these chapters that are in South Texas and New Mexico or is there trade going on or how has it expanded? Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Right, so it actually started with indigenous people in Mexico ⁓ that had a ⁓ ritual peyote hunt every year where they would gather at an outdoor all-night dance and a ceremony that particularly with the Wicholli people that springs up but then it's an elder who interprets then from the ingestion of peyote some of the visions for the people. Tribes like the Comanche and the Kiowa, of course, are familiar and go down into Mexico early in their history and they bring peyote back across what becomes the U.S. into their own, at that time sadly, reservation system. And once it hits the U.S. reservation system, the ceremony transforms tremendously from an outdoor all-night dancing to an indoor, in the teepee, where Indian agents on the reservation can't see what you're doing. Right? So, and it moves into a very contemplative ceremony for hearing creator speak and not just to the roadman who organizes the ceremony, but anyone sitting in the circle can ingest the peyote and get a word from creator. So very sort of egalitarian, which is why a lot of people have framed it as a new American religion that comes over probably in the mid-19th century, mid to latter part of the 19th century. We don't really know when because we know it's first noticed like around 1880, which is the start of the time frame on my book by white Indian agents. And they start reporting then that they're hearing word about this new ceremony. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, thank you for clarifying that. One of the things that ⁓ I'm glad you brought up reservations and indigenous history too, because ⁓ very early on and listeners, followers, we talk about this quite a bit. Early on, a lot of folks came to the United States to make it a Christian nation, but they couldn't decide on what that meant. There were also ⁓ Jewish immigrants and there were Muslim slaves. There was a lot. And then of course, you're the indigenous. ⁓ So there was never a monolithic United States Christian definition is what I'm trying to say that the Heritage Foundation likes to say. They're like, ⁓ it's our heritage. And I'm like, which one? Whose? ⁓ But ⁓ how does, before we get too deep into the specifics of peyote politics, ⁓ how was religion suppressed or how did white European settlers impact indigenous faith, spiritualities? Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Right. Right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: from colonialism to, I guess, maybe, 1850s or so. Because that's, I needed to give you an end date. Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Right, right. Yeah, that's a great question because, no, no, ⁓ because by the time... latter part of the 19th century that peyoteism gets discovered by a lot of these Indian agents and the missionaries then who are serving on those reservations. It's the Office of Indian Affairs, now the Bureau of Indian Affairs. By 1883 they've implemented a religious crimes code on the reservation to suppress things like the sweat lodge, the giveaway ceremony, any of the dancing ceremonies, and out of that That's how we got current-day powwows in order to continue the dance as part of ceremonies. They transformed some of those into more secular practices in order to keep dancing. So by 1883, the Office of Indian Affairs is already trying to stamp out religion. You followed up with the ghost dance and wounded knee massacre, right, that has taken place. And the ghost dance kind of goes underground and it comes down to Oklahoma even to a lot of the reservations and that kind of the ghost dance and peyote ism are happening sort of at the same time in Oklahoma. ⁓ And so Indian agents and missionaries particularly because by then you have grants peace policy that has broken up the reservation system and assign different denominational groups. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ and it's... Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: to oversee in order to educate and to civilize Native Americans and to try to bring them into citizenship status because remember at this time they're not citizens of the United States. That doesn't happen officially until 1924. Leigh/@followtheleighder: which is wild when you consider that Native Americans have served in every war. I mean, they have given. Yeah, so 1924 is when Peyote was relaxed. Sorry, I'm writing down the sentence. Zip, okay. Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Exactly. No, that's when Native Americans got citizenship status. Between 1880 and 1937 particularly, ⁓ which is where I sort of cut off the history of the book, there are these state efforts, there are federal congressional efforts to try to secularize this religious practice in order to ban it. And so they try to frame it as, well, it's an intoxicant, right? And we'll treat it like alcohol and try to ban it because this is during prohibition, right? That's not working. Then they say, well, thanks to the Harrison, know, Narcotics Act and the Food and Drug Act, well, its effects are just like opium and cocaine and marijuana. So it's like a drug and we can try to ban it like that. And at least until 1970, They're unsuccessful in getting any federal legislation passed to criminalize it as a narcotic. It happens in 1970, thank you Nixon's war on drugs, Following the drug culture of the 1960s when a lot of whites start going down to the natural growth region peyote fields in Texas and harvesting trying to use it as a recreational drug outside of the ceremonial practice and that's when it starts catching the attention of the federal government again in the 20th century and that's when it gets declared and put on the schedule one narcotic list when it has no chemical properties related to being a schedule one. Leigh/@followtheleighder: No, no, and like you said, if there's never been deaths, if you don't get violent, like if it's not a public health or safety issue, ⁓ it's really clear that this is discrimination. Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Right. Yeah. It is. And it goes back to the early missionaries who are on the reservations and they're saying, ⁓ well this all-night ceremony that typically happens on Saturday night, well they're not going to want to come to church on Sunday morning to our church, right? And so Christian missionaries are feeling very threatened by this practice. And on the reservation, lot of Native Americans are not going to the Western doctors now that are being brought to the reservations because they're using their own sacred medicine of peyote for healing. And so there's this tension between Western culture trying to be this hegemonic force upon Native Americans. Even when some of the ceremonies implement some Christian elements to it, there's still this threat. by Western culture that we can't compete. And this all-night ceremony is going to make them too tired to go work their fields or care for their crops, right? This sort of Protestant work ethic kind of comes into it as well. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ absolutely. And which is, you bring up distrust of Western doctors. Like why would you? And you know, especially when we look at women and the sterilization of women. I mean, like, why would you trust a Western white male doctor to come onto your lands after everything? It's really like, sometimes when I'm reading history and I come across something like that, I'm like, the goal of the, like, I can't believe I, but. Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yeah. ⁓ Why? Right. Right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: deliberate, it was intentional and I'm very thankful that you are writing books like this to help show the audiences that, you know, they didn't just fade away, it wasn't just like some bad, it was, this was a deliberate systemic strategic effort by our state government in combination with the military and Christianity to silence it. It was a cultural physical genocide and especially you're talking about Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: you know especially this drug not drug this plant excuse me like you said it was meant to be out outside in celebration and movement and expression and and now you have changed the cultural practice to a contemplative static Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Okay. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: so many ways that the US state has eaten away the cultural dignity or attempted to. And yet, like you say, ⁓ practices persist because they're integral to the community. ⁓ talk about the Native American church and that large umbrella, and we talk about the ⁓ of peyote it seems like peyote is almost becoming like a... ⁓ Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Mm-hmm. Thank Leigh/@followtheleighder: like the face or like it's becoming widespread even with communities that aren't regionally grow that ⁓ almost for more of what it represents. Is that a fair statement? it has peyote become sort of a rallying thing for indigenous spiritualities to or what, how is it playing in their advocacy? Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yeah. Yeah, because ⁓ once folks like Quana Parker from the Comanche and the Kiowa people bring it over from Mexico and introduce it into the U.S. in the latter part of the 19th century, it does become its own indigenous religious practice, something for that community. ⁓ It's the Kiowa Comanche that early on invite what we know to be the first white person to witness the ceremony and anthropophysically from the Smithsonian who is living among the Kiowa Comanche named James Mooney and he is the one who first starts to document this religious practice. He's hoping to write a work on it. He ends up getting invested in this practice of protecting it so much so that when the federal government starts to target it to try to eliminate it, He's also going before Congress testifying for religious freedom for indigenous peoples. and calling out some of the opponents, even Native American opponents from the Society of American Indians, ⁓ who their sole concern is citizenship. And they too are coming, you know, allowing the propaganda of this barbaric superstitious practice, right, to sort of influence how they want to treat Native American peyotes. And so there's even a split within the Society of Native American Indians there. ⁓ But Mooney ends up putting himself on the line in front of the congressional hearing, particularly in 1918. and ends up losing his field work, gets called back to Washington never to be able to finish his work writing on peyote. But he's still in touch with the Native American Church. He helps them organize and incorporate in 1918 as a legal entity. And he still sends them, I love it, when he's in Washington DC, he's still writing to peyote leaders in Oklahoma with clippings from the paper. This denomination claims to be the only church, and look at this one. one claims to be the only church among whites. Why, you know, they don't know what they're talking about really. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right, right, the Mooney and needing to navigate against the Christian missionaries or the very influential organizations, ⁓ what, was there any, you mentioned earlier that there might have been some Christian components in their ceremonies that they may have adopted. ⁓ Can you speak a little bit about that? Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ gosh, Yeah. As it starts in what is now southwest Oklahoma with the Kiowa, Comanche, the Arapaho, it's very much indigenous with songs through the ceremony in language and stuff like that. As it moves a little further north in Oklahoma around 1818, there's a Caddo Delaware medicine man named John Wilson who picks up peyote, but his own Catholicism helps him modify the ceremony, the altar where the peyote cactus, the buttons and stuff rest on it, gets elongated to form a cross. ⁓ He also adds some new songs and bands ⁓ some of the the role of tobacco, it kind of gets reduced in the ceremony and some Christian symbols start to appear. And that becomes known as the Big Moon Ceremony. That's different from the Half Moon Ceremony of the Kiowa Comanche that is still just indigenous. As it further spreads up the northern plains, once it gets to ⁓ the Nebraska area, the Winnebago's, John Rave and Albert Hensley modify it even more in a cross-moon or a crossfire ceremony ⁓ that's heavily Christian. Now you get Christian sermons being preached, Christian hymns being sung, as well as peyote songs. And on the altar with peyote is an open Bible because peyote will help you interpret God's Word, right? So it's very Christian. And then it goes further out west ⁓ to Utah, the Utes and stuff, still maintaining to the Navajo some of the Christian elements. So there's a lot of syncism. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And that's particularly that brings up a point when you were researching and something I learned from Dr. Dellinger actually was that when we look at who is writing the documents of yesterday, what was it like to parse out the motivations by some of the white researchers you read and maybe the research you had from indigenous people? Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yeah, it was really interesting because first of all I started with some of the earlier secondary work which were written by anthropologists. Mooney didn't get to finish his work. But Omer Stewart and some others came along afterwards who did have connections with peyotists in Oklahoma and elsewhere and got a lot of anecdotal stories that they shared. The problem with some of those earlier anthropological works is they were focused mainly on the ritual and the ceremony trying to translate that for white people. And I was more interested in the history of how we got to the Native American Church and this new American religion that is introduced on the continent. And so that's where then you read, of course, all of the Indian agent reports that get submitted every year to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. And you start to get a sense that they're noticing something and they're unhappy with something. But what really set this apart was the fact that in the. state constitutional debates in Oklahoma, in congressional hearings that were held, Native Americans were showing up to testify and their testimonies are recorded in government documents, as well as newspaper articles, know, reporters who are there who are covering and suddenly now you have indigenous voices from peyotus who are speaking that's preserved in the historical record and I really relied on those voices. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Barnett, one of the things you talk about in your book is obviously the pushback your fundamentalist ⁓ However, the Native American church is also emerging along with the social gospel movement. Is there a connection or relationship between the Native American church and social gospel or how did they play in that time? Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yeah, it's really interesting because you did have certain missionaries who were definitely opposed to the practice, but you also had this group of white folks called the Friends of the Lake Mohawk Conference, right? Who these are a group of well-meaning sort of socially progressive Christians at the time, but still very paternalistic towards Native Americans. And so they're looking at ways that they can increase opportunities for Native Americans to work their way into modern society. Again the focus is really sort of on citizenship status ⁓ and they're not as favorable to the peyote practice as one would expect from a socially progressive sort of Christian standpoint because they're not they're totally missing the idea of religious sovereignty for native peoples at that time. So just like some of the more fundamentalist missionaries, sort of the same thing coming out of the white progressive ⁓ social gospel faction. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Why, you know, when we talk about culture and establishing, Americanizing, there is a connection, like you said, they thought that because they stayed up on Saturdays doing their ceremonies, they wouldn't be able to make it to church. And then you also brought up that Protestant work ethic. Can you share a little bit for the audience how Christianity, Protestant Christianity, ⁓ how it was used and shaped in boarding schools? Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yeah. Yeah, and that's the thing. Of course, when students were ⁓ sent away, usually removed from their home and taken to boarding schools, ⁓ they're being indoctrinated into what someone has already determined to be American culture. ⁓ which includes a Christian component to it and more often than not a Protestant Christian component, depending upon the school. But the whole trying to prepare them for vocational careers. The women are taught sewing and cooking. The men are taught a trade, blacksmithing and farming and things like that to try to introduce them into an American society deemed American by the whites. It's interesting that peyote actually a lot of the students who come back to a reservation setting from the boarding school a lot of them come back with ⁓ tuberculosis consumption diseases from being crowded in those boarding schools and they come back and they actually find some physical healing from peyote. And that then sets up some of the problem between the Society of American Indians whose leadership is boarding school educated, who now are kind of calling some of the political shots, versus those who come back from the boarding schools and take up now this indigenous religious practice. And so that too is also a divide. And again, creates more barriers with the society of American Indians who have favored themselves in politically right with ⁓ the dominant culture. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ And that's what's fascinating is I know in my line being from the South, like if you go back, I do have an indigenous woman and I think, I can begin see her journey and how she married a white man, moved to Texas, started calling herself white and everybody was white, her children. And I think about that, ⁓ you know. what that must have been like particularly because she was doing all of that in the middle of the the trail of tears like she could see that had she not made that decision she would be one of those women and we had that conversation did did she marry for love probably not did she even like the guy he's probably an annoying white guy sorry no offense guys but but i mean the You have your outright genocide, your loss of life, and then you have this loss of religion and culture, and then you have blatant loss of access to healthcare. I mean, the privilege that a white woman could have in those days to that. And I like your point how you bring up that first wave of political Native American leaders, but they were able to access those powers because of the boarding school education. And so it's all tampered so that everyone fits in this box. ⁓ And I can imagine how frustrating that would be to be the leaders who finally have an opportunity to do something, but you've been Americanized. Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yeah. right. video. Right. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ There's just so much grief and loss and thank you for taking the time to explain all of that. Can you talk about in that same vein of what folks had to do in order to survive, in order to have certain laws passed, you talk about clothing and how clothing made a difference, attire. ⁓ Can you talk about how that impacted peyote politics? Just simply different clothing. Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: ⁓ huh. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, the latter part of chapter five in the book talks about this sartorial sort of component, if you will, of dressing for success in the white man's world of law and politics. ⁓ Relying on some other studies that have been done talking about the use of clothing as a form of political identity. Leigh/@followtheleighder: That's funny. I have, you know what? I live by it at Interforce Base 2. I'll text you later this week if we also have exercises. And then we know. Things are really bad, Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yes. I can stay a little past two of need be. I'm going to go back to that dressing for success stuff here. Yeah. Why don't you re-ask the question and then I'll kind of get into it now that the Jets have passed over here. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ yeah, yeah, and I can re-ask the question too. ⁓ You know, we've talked so much about the different ways that people have had to survive in the face of white American patriarchal supremacy. And one of the things that you talk about in your book is clothing and how in order for Native American communities to advance their peyote politics for them to use it, they had to dress a certain way. Can you talk about that? Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yeah, that comes at the end of chapter five, ⁓ Dressing for Success in the White Men's World of Law and Politics, ⁓ relying on some secondary sources how the use of clothing is a form of political identity. And what kept popping up was the reports of Indian agents noting how many native peoples were dressed Citizens Dress was the phrase or citizens clothing versus the blanket Indian sort of rhetoric. And so a lot of peyotus, particularly Quanah Parker, you know in Cash, Oklahoma is wearing the native attire. But when he shows up in 1907 to testify before the Oklahoma Constitutional Convention, he and the other peyotus are all dressed in suit and tie. right? The white man's clothing where they're adopting that. And then there's this point where a the one of the members of the Society of American Indians who is vitally opposed to the use of peyote. Her name is Gertrude Bonin. She also called herself ⁓ Cikala Shaw, Yankton Sioux, educated at Carlisle, plays the violin, missionary among the Utes later on, but she is opposed to peyote. When she goes out to speak, she dresses, and her correspondence, her words, in an Indian costume, right? She dresses for how white people are expecting a Native American to show up when they come talk. And so she shows up in 1918 at the congressional hearings dressed in her quote costume. The Washington Times has her picture plastered on and this is what gets James Mooney in trouble because when he's testifying, he's saying she doesn't even know what her identity is. She's Northern Plains, but the dress that she's wearing is Southern Plains. The belt that she has on is a man's belt, not a woman's belt from a different tribal affiliation. And it might be that the fan that she's holding might be a peyote fan. So she is just kind of thrown together this dress expecting that this performative identity, right, for whites. And that again is what got Mooney in trouble. there's also a race to ⁓ Christian citizen that also goes along with this citizen's clothing and citizen's dress that starts cropping up a lot more in the rhetoric. That's going to be another book ⁓ for more research. Leigh/@followtheleighder: or an end. Yeah. Well, and And I'm glad you bring that up is the performative and especially when you've been indoctrinated, right? You've been, and it's ⁓ just the whole story, right? Children taken from their communities, indoctrinated in a world completely different. And then those children grow up and then start to ⁓ exploit. because now, and then they're walking into worlds, there's just so, it's just so messy. It's heartbreaking. because like as you're saying all and describing ⁓ think about ⁓ the division, because you have the Society American Indians. also ⁓ then you have the state, you have the Bureau. You have different churches, ⁓ not churches, sorry. ⁓ Confederacies is probably a bit right. You some groups starting to develop allegiances. ⁓ Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I wrote it down but now I can't read my own handwriting. That's okay. Can you share with us a little bit about Oklahoma? Like a lot of Native American news information comes out of this. Your book is printed by OU Press, Oklahoma University Press. What is that history of indigenous people in Oklahoma? Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yes. Yeah, Oklahoma, you know, was originally part of the carving out of what was supposed to be Indian territory. It becomes Oklahoma and then there's a part of Kansas. And that was as a result of the 1830 Indian Removal Act for the five Southeast tribes to relocate from their ancestral homelands to Indian territory. It was supposed to be for perpetuity eternally, right? You know, go west of the Mississippi and you can have this land. And then we know that didn't last long and it started getting carved up. and then Kansas had their territory and other tribes from the Great Lakes regions, from out west, from Texas, from the northern plains, get pushed into what was originally Indian territory for the five southeast tribes and those reservations get broken up and the land broken up even further to accommodate now I think what we have 39 tribal affiliations in what is the state of Oklahoma. And so it becomes sort of these. It's not necessarily the heart of Indian country, but with the broad representation of native tribes that are here. And certainly in peyoteism, it is the heart of peyoteism as a religious practice in Indian country because it comes from Mexico up to Oklahoma. And that American religion starts here and then spreads further north and further west. So that was one of the reasons why the University of Oklahoma was so interested because because of the centrality of the religious practice in Oklahoma. As well as, I will say, one of the big ⁓ supporters of peyote even though he was not a peyotus native American but he was an elected member of Congress in the early 20th century Robert Owen who was Cherokee was one of the reasons why congressional legislation also failed because he was like even though I'm not a peyotus I support their religious sovereign right to practice this religion. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And again, I want to circle back, y'all, no debts. There is no public health or safety issue with this that we know of. And yet here we are with some, you know, like alcoholism at its time too. ⁓ You've talked about how those who follow peyotism, peyotism, peyoteism? Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Exactly. Yeah. Yes. ⁓ Peyote or Peyote, Peyoteism I call the religious practice, much like Methodism, know, Presbyterianism, yeah. ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: Okay. Yeah. Okay. But you talk about how it's a very specific belief system that uses this plant ⁓ for purposes and that they don't use alcohol and drugs. ⁓ what, I mean, we've seen so much about the introduction of alcohol to Native Americans, smallpox, there's just been so many things, genocide, and then going back to it. ⁓ Were there any instances of like the reverse? Like were Native Americans introducing ⁓ white folk to peyote at all or any of these ceremonies or was it very much the the big the big threat consuming everything in its path or like Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: and Yeah. Right, so Mooney was the first anthropologist to be invited and then others in the early 20th century got invited to the ceremony primarily so that they could write about it in order to protect the right for the Native American church members to practice the use of peyoteism. It is still an indigenous ceremony. Now, because it's on the Schedule I drug list, it is highly regulated and you have to have a membership card into the Native American church, right, to use it. Although if you are invited into the ceremony, you can still partake even. if you're a white person, but you have to have an invitation. It's not just you see that a ceremony because it doesn't happen every Saturday night. It's only called for on special ⁓ need basis. And you have to have the invitation to get in, ⁓ which is why not everyone can be a member of this church. ⁓ But it's also if you're a Ponca and you're down in Lawton, Oklahoma and the Comanche are having a peyote ceremony, you can go without the invitation. It's that sort of crossing borders within tribal affiliations, but not within white. And again, the history with white colonialism and hegemony wanting to dominate. ⁓ We got to trust you first. ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right, of course. And on that basis of trust, I absolutely know it's just promoting that a bunch of white folk go and do this. It is simply trying to talk about the politics of how someone's sacred religious artifact, I don't know, ⁓ is made challenging. It's inaccessible for the people that are using it. And again, no public health issue. ⁓ Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Right, yeah, no. Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Which is like kind of like always, ⁓ I'm up here in Montana. We have a very libertarian approach of just like, hey, if it doesn't hurt anyone else, you do it. and very strange to... ⁓ Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yeah, that's right. Right. Well, I actually write about one of the court cases, Montana versus Big Sheep, in the book, as well as, you know, ⁓ early on on the Crowe Reservation, right? ⁓ Big Sheep was one of the first to actually frame his lawyer into this religious identity, right? That this is a religious practice, right? That is protected by the First Amendment. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Although Oklahoma peyotes were also claiming that, that case was one of the more successful ones early on to kind of claim a religious identity. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and it's certainly an interesting time in the US ⁓ with a lot of the rise of Christian nationalism. I talk about that quite a bit. ⁓ From your knowledge or from your network, how have you seen Christian nationalism impact ⁓ Oklahoma or national ⁓ indigenous beliefs, practices? Have you seen that or heard of challenges? Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yeah, I mean. You always have Christian nationalist. I mean, there's someone I think in Texas that's spouting, you know, we should deport Native Americans, you know. I mean, there's always that sort of stuff. But in terms of ⁓ the religious practice, I will say, you know, one of one of the things that it's made it much more difficult to try to push back on getting peyote removed from the schedule one drug list. because currently that means that Native Americans who are incarcerated can't have religious practices for them because it's a drug. Also, the supply of peyote now with climate change And with ⁓ commercial agribusiness plowing up some of the natural growth region in South Texas, it's limited to about four counties now where the supply can grow. And again, it's highly regulated. The peyoteros who grow it have to have a license from the state of Texas. You have to have paperwork to go to Texas and have it cross state lines. But because it's on the Schedule I drug, while it still grows freely in the desert of northern Mexico, you can't bring it across the international border because that's drug trafficking right now. And so part of this Christian nationalism identity is Native Americans are trying to get it removed from the Schedule I drug list, but it's just impossible right now in the current political climate, I think, to make any inroads there. Leigh/@followtheleighder: hope that the next progressive person will recognize federal decriminalization of marijuana and then also pay it because it's it sounds like it's just a nightmare and so yeah just decriminalize all of it and and and ⁓ not all of it there's some things i wish that we should not bring in but well okay i am just floored i feel like i could talk to you all about this Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yes. Yes. Yeah, right, yeah, You Leigh/@followtheleighder: And because there's just waiting everything is like one more. ⁓ but then what about this? But we got to wrap it up, folks. We got to wrap up this conversation. Dr. Barnett, please tell us how can we find your book? How can we learn more about either peyote politics or just you in general? Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yeah, yeah. So, ⁓ OU Press ⁓ carries the book. You can order it from there. Of course, you do have to pay some of the shipping costs that come with that. ⁓ Or sometimes you get, yeah, that might have been a pre-order ⁓ from the press. That came from the press. You need to call the press. You can also get it off Amazon, Barnes & Noble, any of your other, you know, bookstore sites probably will have it. ⁓ It is in hard back right now. Hardcover only. It's not paperback yet. It usually takes a couple years to cycle. So that's why it's like a $45 cost with the book. ⁓ But ⁓ OU Press also has a little authors thing ⁓ about me that has upcoming speaking engagements. But of course you can find me on the Phillips Theological Seminary faculty directory website. My CV is constantly kind of updated and stuff there. ⁓ But that's how you can get the book. And I try to get out at least in Oklahoma and Kansas and the area doing some public speaking events. ⁓ And so folks, you know, want to have me come talk. They can, you know, at least reach out via my email on the Phillips Theological Seminary Faculty Directory website. And we can talk about a Zoom option or, you know, an in-person option if possible. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, I was even thinking, again, another thing we could have talked about, but your relationship with the, ⁓ my gosh, it's out in Washington. I just draw a blank on it. ⁓ Council, it's through the Disciples of Christ denomination. Council's... Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: in. I'm a trustee for the Disciples of Christ Historical Society. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Historical society and but you helped to get our relationship the the and I'll edit this out This is fine, but I just wanted to ask like are you what is it's out in Washington? And I cannot remember it's the indigenous Yeah Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: ⁓ no, no, Washington State, sorry. I am ⁓ co-moderator for the Center for Indigenous Ministries associated with the Disciples of Christ. We're actually currently working on creating some ⁓ standing rules to try to become an affiliated ministry under the umbrella of the ⁓ General Minister and President. with the disciples, but to have some more denominational recognition to transform just from Yakama Christian Mission now to the Center for Indigenous Ministries. So we, the Center for Indigenous Ministries, every year does a winter talk event where we invite folks to come to learn more about the Christian doctrine of discovery that still impacts indigenous justice issues today. ⁓ And so yeah, I've ⁓ My co-moderator Crow Eddie is up in Nova Scotia, Mi'kmaq, and we do some really cool work, I think, for justice issues for indigeneity broadly defined. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, well, and thank you. ⁓ And definitely as it gets closer to the winter, if you want to come back and promote that, I know some folks would really be interested in hearing about doctrine of discovery and having such a wonderful engaged conversation, not just with Christians in the room, but as well as Indigenous. All right, folks, Peyote Politics, do you mind holding up your book for the cover? She got the pretty cover. I did not. ⁓ Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: Yeah. Yeah. No. Sure, yeah. Because this cover, I want to say something about this cover. This is artwork by the Citizen Potawatomi artist named Woody Crumbo who... Documents Through Painting has documented peyote ceremonies. And so this is a peyote ceremony painting by Woody Crumbo that hangs out in the Gilcrease Museum here in Tulsa. And the OU Press got permission from the Crumbo family to use this painting for their cover. Yeah. So yeah, that's what's so cool about it, which is why you need to call the press. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, I will. Yes, I will. Alrighty. Well, Dr. Barnett, is there anything else you'd to say before we wrap up? ⁓ Dr. Lisa Barnett, 'Peyote Politics' Author: No, this has just been fascinating. Lee, thank you for the opportunity to really kind of talk about my book and again to emphasize peyote as a sacred medicine with no addictive drug-related properties at all, which is why I think our conversation about including it as a religious practice in the landscape of American religious history is so very, very important to not just ⁓ talk about Christianity but to include some of these ⁓ Native American practices as well in that landscape. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Absolutely folks, that is Peyote Politics with Dr. Lisa Barnett, again, the Associate Professor of Religious History, Phillips Theological Seminary down in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Thank you, Dr. Barnett, so much for joining me. And folks, that's it, that's a wrap. What did you think? Make sure, I wanna hear it, let it know in the comments. Would you like to hear more about this, deeper dives? Let's do it. Otherwise, like, follow, subscribe, you know the drill. And I'll see you next time. Follow the Leighder. see ya. Bye bye. And stop.