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Marketing and the multi-affiliate model · Two in Twenty

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to 2 and 20, the news podcast from the team at White Marble Consulting.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host Kirsten Hastings, head of content at White Marble.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: In each episode, I will be joined by two industry experts to lift the lid on investment marketing issues, challenges, and industry trends.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Featuring in this episode are Mark Doyle, former late EVP of Strategic Marketing and Products at MetXus, and Twig Field, CEO and founder of White Marble.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Over the next 20 or so minutes, we will dive into the world of marketing and the multi-affiliate model.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Talk through the challenges and opportunities, not only from a brand perspective, but also a budget one, and whether it is possible to have a unified multi-affiliate culture.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: First and foremost, Mark, could you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and any realizations that have struck you since you've embarked on your new adventure?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Kirsten.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's great to be here with you and uh Twank.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate the uh invitation to talk about this.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think it's exciting topics.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, my career at Natixis was pretty much my entire professional career, which is probably fairly unusual.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was afforded great opportunity at the firm and this is the Natixis Investment Managers.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: As you mentioned, I concluded charge of strategic marketing and product along the way, did a variety of different roles, and uh, you know, really, I think my career sort of spoke to the great opportunities that can be afforded people in asset management.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Natixis Investment Managers, you know, is the sort of the uh distribution marketing arm of Natixis, sort of the parent entity.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: It is a multi-affiliate, as you mentioned, 20 plus um affiliates, a number of names that are very well known, most prominently probably uh you know Oakmark Harris, Loomis, AEW, Morova, a lot of fantastic managers uh as well in uh Europe.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: I've had a lot of experience with this topic, multi-affiliate marketing with brand.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people find it in the within a multi-affiliate to be challenging.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: I always looked at the opportunity, thought about how ways to turn it on its head.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And as far as, you know, since I sort of stepped into the next chapter of my career, you know, kind of any things that that I've realized, I think I just realized how great the industry really is.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: And when you when you're doing the work that the people do collectively within within the asset management industry, which is really, you know, kind of to um help people realize their dreams financially.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's a it's a lofty ambition, you know.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot that goes in into that, and also that it's an industry that is really built around strong, excellent people.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Twink Mark rattled off a lot of the very well-known names from from the Texas group.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that we're seeing more of that multi-affiliate model in the industry?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I do.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know that it necessarily has to be an operating model that is set out and explicitly calling itself an affiliate model.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think even you could say that some of the traditional asset managers have a sort of affiliate mindset.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think part of that is as the industry talks to being solution providers, you have to be able to have this sort of wing-to-wing capability within your business.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think obviously you see kind of acquisitions being made, and particularly in the sort of more uh maybe sort of private markets areas, for instance.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, I think we're definitely seeing the industry think about that way of talking about itself.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I you can see why, you know, from that from that example for maybe some of the bigger managers that need to be able to sort of provide full capabilities, but even to the point from the more affiliate level, the potentially the boutique level, where in an environment which is very heavily risk and regulatory dominant, and often these businesses are so investment-led in their thinking and their culture and their they want that independence to maintain that investment focus.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: Why wouldn't you port yourself into a bigger business that's gonna provide that infrastructure and ability to operate and maintain that focus?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, I think there are a couple of reasons why it works with both parties.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think again, in this very highly competitive market, low growth market, margin pressures, you know, you gotta you want to be really big and scaled, or you want to be really focused and sort of bring that sort of boutique lens.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so not caught in the middle.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's why that solution provider model and mindset of a multi-franchise, as well as that sort of boutique, makes sense.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really good point.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: In the past, it probably was easy to discern, hey, here's a group of multi-affiliates, right?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: But nowadays, I think people are sometimes quietly acquiring the pieces that make them more relevant, more viable, and sort of a solution-oriented marketplace.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's less easy nowadays than it was even, I think, five years ago to say, okay, that's a multi-affiliate.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think he makes some really good points.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: And to stay competitive, you know, people have to continue to put uh arrows in the quiver and you know, in and strengthen in these areas that make them competitive.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I I totally agree with you on that.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's um there's more out there than people realize.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe from that brand strategy point of view, bring it back to that sort of conundrum, then maybe that mindset, that way of talking about a business also makes them more credible when they have that deep specialism that they've brought in, whether it's named differently or not, that's able that authentic specialism and expertise that they're bringing in and providing clients access to, kind of makes it easier from a brand strategy perspective, if it's this dedicated team that they've brought in or nurtured.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just hard to suddenly go, oh, we've talked to you forever about all these things that we've done.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: But we we've sort of somehow missed the opportunity to tell you also about these hidden private markets capabilities.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I just I think you can really do some brand damage if you try and present capabilities that haven't necessarily been in your business for a long time.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously, as the market moves into those areas, you try and also grow into that space.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think you have to do something different and distinct and potentially buy that capability to be credible.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I totally agree.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes even it's just sort of like an incubation strategy may be you know important.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's tricky because if you've acquired an affiliate or a you know independent manager, you know, they'll they'll they're looking for probably immediate reward, right?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the interesting things I've always felt about the multi-affiliate is if you look at it through the two lenses, if you're the parent, you've acquired this talent for specific reasons.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: So you want to figure out how to monetize it.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you're the manager, you know, in a lot of ways as it relates to the brand, you are the brand, right?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're the brand to your existing client, you're the you're the brand to, you know, probably your your prospects as you as you cast a wider net, right?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: So there's always that tricky kind of balancing act in as to how do you sort of bring all that stuff together, you know, via brand.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: But but the this notion that you're you're uh referring to of there's there's more relevancy with more pieces, it's just how do you sort of articulate that in a way that doesn't look like, hey, we have one of those too, because you know, because that's usually, I think, can can sometimes confuse clients.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, you know, you're talking to me about this the whole time I've known you, but now you're introducing that.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or we're introducing that because we believe in the investment prowess of that.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: But then how do how does it weave together?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was it's an overused term, but what's the connective tissue, right?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that that's a really important piece.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: The good news is I think if you look at the marketplace, as more and more people get into this um mode of adding things on, whether it's acquisition or whatever, I think they're doing it with the client need top of mind, which is which is mission critical.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everything has to be through through the client need, through the client lens.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, I think you fail.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: What are the essentials that our our audience as investment marketers, what is it that they need to be particularly thinking about when it comes to looking at the brand strategy and hierarchy within a multi-affiliate strategy or structure?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think that that really the interesting thing about all this is if you look at the structure, in my experience, uh and then in watching sort of you know the landscape, I think sometimes it's it's easy to sort of collapse under the weight.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a daunting challenge, isn't it, when you think about how do you sort of bring these people, all of this stuff together as far as brand and as far as is marketing in general.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it's it's not sometimes you know the easiest task in the world.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I've always felt like you know, the best examples that you know I was involved with and some of the sort of success stories I've seen across across the industry, right?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: It really sort of pivots on the most important starting point is what's your objective?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: So if we stick with brand for a second, you know, there's any initiative is is tricky if you're trying to to bring to together build coalitions, trying to sort of um serve multiple objectives.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: But if you sort of step back and say, okay, really what is the objective?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: And with brand specifically, I like to call it like the big splash.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Are you trying to make the big splash?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and if you're trying to make a big splash, you certainly have to have that connective tissue.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Are you are you just going for not the big splash, but you're trying to sort of have some connectivity amongst some of these varied units?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think you also have to ask the question, is this is this going to be something that involves everybody, which is tricky, or is this something where, you know, maybe, maybe there's a way to start with the connective tissue where it's as basic as you know, connecting up thematically some things that and and figuring out how does some of the assets that that you have with the managers sit under a tent, if you will, with some thematic approach.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that that's probably the first point.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then and then really it's kind of client, client, client.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Through the lens of the client, if you're thinking multi-affiliate, to the to the end investor, or if it's whether it's B2B or B2C, the brand is not usually the parent entity.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: The brand is the affiliate or the independent manager.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: So there's that sort of conundrum about okay, they may know that there's a connection to a parent entity, or most likely they probably don't, right?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now, do you want to bring forward elements of the strength of the parent entity that you know causes the investor to have reassurance?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Does it even matter to them?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's sort of like you have to sort of figure out objectively how to look to the lens of the client.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I also think that I always would sort of say to folks, client is two levels.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Client is the end investor, the person, but then also you have your internal clients within the enterprise.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you you have the affiliates, you have your associates that you want to bring along the journey if you're doing brand, you're doing marketing.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly you have the folks above you within the hierarchy that uh, you know, we'll get to budgeting later.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: They're probably signing off on budgeting or making the the approval.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, everybody sort of has to put us get their stamp on on this stuff.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot involved with this.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I know there's a lot that I just said there, but I don't know, Twink, if you if there's stuff there that sort of resonates with you.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I really think sometimes people get lost in what's the objective, what are they trying to trying to accomplish?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because brand can be overwhelming, marketing can be overwhelming when you're trying to do it with all these constituencies.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think you know, being really clear on those objectives makes sure that you kind of bring in bringing that focus.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think actually taking your points around connectivity and the client perspective ultimately comes down to logic, doesn't it?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: Why does this affiliate belong within that business?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: And does it make sense to the mind of the client?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so that sense of belonging within that business and what are the what are the principles of the parent that make that such a good fit and make that such a good home so that they're gonna go on and flourish and deliver for those clients.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I think being really clear and in that connectivity and that logic is you know fundamental.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think though, just to sort of maybe challenge sort of where the brand power sits.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, certainly, you know, the strength of the investment boutique in terms of investment proposition is very specific and in its sort of brand reach and resonance.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I I think that you want to make sure you're really leveraging the strength of the brand of the overarching parent as well, or so what they're bringing.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I think again, the marriage of what the broader infrastructure and stability that the parent is bringing and how that's enabling that investment brand to flourish.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that for me is that hierarchy point, Kirsten, that you're asking about in terms of and how are you feeding one to the other?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: But I think a real clarity on the belonging and how that's going to continue to deliver for the client absolutely brings that connectivity logic objective point together.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: So there are uh quite a few opportunities and challenges that you've both touched on there.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: But what happens as Mark mentioned when it comes to budget?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have a single pot of money that needs to be split between several, many different affiliates depending on the size, how does that conversation work?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: How does that strategy get fulfilled so that you don't have some businesses feeling that they're being perhaps shortchanged?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Just a simple question there, Kirsten.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you can see how easily it gets sort of neutralized, actually, can't you?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think you know, when you've got really highly competitive businesses who are really focused on brand, particularly the last year or two and and and and actively now, how do you compete when you're having to show some love to a number of different brands and make sure that they are in the minds of the client?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe Mark, you can tell us how.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that that obviously can be thorny in a lot of ways.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: From my perspective, if there is something that is developed that kind of is the big tense, if you will, you know, I think it just comes down to an honest discussion with the with the affiliate about what it is that you're trying to accomplish and then how do they fit into it, right?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then if it comes down to sort of a monetary discussion, is there a shared part or is this something that's funded at the kind of like the parent company level that sort of cascades through in a multi-affiliate?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, being completely honest, how to be all things to all people and to sometimes factor folks in.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't have the panacea sort of solution to that, but I guess I've always looked at the multi-affiliate model as sort of the land of opportunity.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to figure out how to creatively get into it, including uh what your spend level is and and how you can kind of be creative with the spend level if it doesn't exist at a big investment level.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: One of the areas that we've been talking quite a bit to clients about during the course of 2023 is culture.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: So just in terms of that multi-affiliate model, can you have a single culture within these different affiliates or will they always be distinct from one another?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Mark, what was your experience?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: My experience with that was they have definitely have distinct cultures, you know, which really in a wonderful way connects up with their in investment prowess.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: So if you look at some firms, you can you can definitely see what makes them who they are.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And if there were ways to extract out elements of that culture, for instance, if you're trying to do uh, you know, a brand approach, we would always involve the affiliates.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's another good point about brand, the inclusivity and involvement when it comes to brand.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's important to have the voices of the affiliates and the independent money managers heard within the wider enterprise if you're doing that type of an initiative.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: And what invariably will come out would be these aspects, Kirsten, of the culture that you're talking about.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And some of those threads it could very nicely would tie into the bigger overarching sort of tent work that you might do on some brand.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think normally the philosophy in a multi-affiliate is you acquire again the talent, the investment prowess, these entities, and you want to let them be who they are.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: I was thinking about how there's much more management, I guess, of the culture that sits within these businesses, much better articulation now going on, you know, away from just describing what we do into much more how we operate as a team, as a collective, how we make decisions.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think having that again back to the clarity point, if you can bring that clarity as to sort of how you operate at the parent level and how you operate at the boutique level, I think you can then maybe draw out the synergies as to sort of why that should work well, because you're able to draw on each other's strengths or different tendencies.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think maybe it comes back to some of the things we were saying right at the beginning, is just being able to sort of set out a sort of stance as to kind of what you stand for and then how you can connect.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: Once you're able to articulate that, you're able to sort of really see how you connect and why you belong.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think whether that at a proposition level, at a brand level, at a culture level, I think it's about trying to find those sinews.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: But it does mean that the parent has to come with that view, that stance, that understanding of itself as to why you would operate well within our business, how we can make this that marriage that we talked about.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And finally, Mark, do you have any thoughts or tips about marketing in the multi-affiliate model that you would like to leave our audience with?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think we've hit on some of these, Kirsten.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: So really the objective setting, I would say client, client, client, and client again.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think one thing we haven't talked a lot about is sometimes you do need that external subject matter expertise, right?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: I would say no live partner or no-life vendor.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Know who you're partnering up with.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: I know it, you know, White Marble, you it's of paramount importance that you're with the clients that you're partnering with.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why you have a lot of respect in the industry.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think you want to partner up with people that understand what your objectives are, and they're actually going to get you to the endpoint that you need to get to.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the inclusively inclusivity and involvement, clients are external and clients internal.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think commit, you know, if if you commit to what you're doing, doesn't mean that this stuff has to live in perpetuity that you create, whether it be a marketing, you know, or a brand, but you want to um, you know, end up in a spot where where you're you know coming up with something I think that will resonate with with your clients and with your audience.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Twink, what about you?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's hard to disagree with Mark on that point, isn't it?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: I would say that.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, to I was thinking about to the client, client, client point that Mark mentioned.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: I do think the use of data to really help with your client segmentation and thinking about the service that they're getting so that you don't get caught in the trap of presenting them with nine different outlooks every quarter.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that instead, you know, you've got real focus on each segment, where their relationship sits with what brand, to Mark's point, and what type of content they're expecting from you, what point of the journey.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because it gets much more difficult.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: The greater number number of affiliates you've got within your business, the harder it is to really kind of maintain that control.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think by having your clients at the center, understanding them better to drive kind of more personalized journeys where those brands interact and reinforce each other rather than conflict.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that brings us to the end of this episode.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: My thanks to Mark and Twink for sharing their insights and expertise.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: If you have any questions about marketing in the multi-affiliate model or any other topic in this podcast, please do get in touch using the contact details in the description.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: You can subscribe through Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and Spotify.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: If there are any topics for investment marketers you would like 2 and 20 to cover, please do get in touch.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: You can also find episodes from our earlier podcast, Aim High, on Apple, Google and Spotify.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening, until next time.