Latest / BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show / What Should I Buy? - Starter Track Cars

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What Should I Buy? - Starter Track Cars · BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show

0:00
Our panel of break fix petrolheads are back for another rousing
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what should I buy debate.
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Using unique shopping criteria, they are challenged to find our first
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time collector the best vehicle that will make their friends go.
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Where'd you get that?
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Or what the hell is wrong with you?
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At the next cars and coffee
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What's going on everybody this is brad aka the triple six I know this
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is the first time you're hearing that from me But that's my nickname around
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the track in the paddock and gtm with me as always is my co host eric.
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Hey His nickname of course is monty quattro We're coming at
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you with another episode here.
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This today's topic is what cars should I buy?
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Within the GTM community, the debate of which car should I buy never
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seems to fully end, whether it be what should I buy as my first track
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car, my backup car, my new daily, or I just want something different.
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The fury of this debate within our group will quiet from time to time,
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but during the slower months, someone will bring it up and the arguments
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resurrect themselves in full glory.
1:00
You're right, Brad.
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And granted, this question can be asked for various types of driving situations.
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I think we're not really interested in talking about minivans,
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SUVs, and anything like that.
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We really want to focus on spirited driving, autocross, and track days.
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We're going to focus on those guys that aren't looking and shopping for
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their second and third track car.
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They're really looking for their first one.
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But before we start, here's some top tips from various members to
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keep in mind when you're shopping for a new quote unquote sports car.
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So remember, Matt Y comes at us and he says, Never drive your heroes.
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And this one from our illustrious leader, Brad.
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Look around the paddock and start with what you see.
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Again, another gem from Matt Y.
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If you're not okay with me putting a boot in the door of your car, Then you've
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selected the wrong car and pearls of wisdom from Sam build versus buy, buy.
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So rather than rehash everything we've talked about on Slack for the 11 millionth
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time, what we've done is put together a list of kind of our top 10 cars from the
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plethora of options that exist out there.
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We're going to go through them and talk about why they're great starter
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track cars in no particular order, but we're going to go ahead and kick off
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with a fan favorite, BMW or the E 36.
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and the M threes.
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So Brad, what do you think about those?
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You see a lot of them around the paddock.
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I mean, they're, they're very popular.
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I think they're, they're very cheap to get into.
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They perform pretty well compared to other cars that are out
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there, I guess, for the money.
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I'd say they're not rare, but their setup is something
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that's hard to find these days.
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It's hard to find a rear wheel drive car with a manual transmission,
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which some people will argue is the ideal, you know, setup or attract.
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weapon.
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I think that's what one of the things that makes them very popular.
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The aftermarket form is really good.
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They're a mainstay at the track.
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I mean, they're very well balanced cars.
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They don't drive typically like a rear wheel drive car, like say an American
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car where they're, they've got tons of oversteer or anything like that.
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They're very balanced.
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They, they handle really predictably almost like a front wheel drive would
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think they're, they're solid cars.
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Having never owned one is easy for me to say.
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Uh, since you have actually owned one before, let's get your input on it.
3:13
Yeah.
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So I mentioned this in the, uh, the unaired pilot of our podcast, but you
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know, for me owning a BMW, it was like owning a boat, you know, the happiest
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days for me were the day I bought it.
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second happiest day was the day I got rid of it.
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And everything in between was an absolute nightmare.
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Now, that being said, I bought the car because I was, I was working on something
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else and it was down at the time.
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And I was really curious.
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A lot of my friends have E36s and they love them.
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And they, they speak very highly of those cars and everything you said.
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is 100 percent true.
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But what I came to realize though, to build a competitive E36, it
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becomes a very slippery slope.
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It's 30 year old German technology, which brings its own issues to light and
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parts availability, although very strong.
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You have to replace everything on those motors.
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They have valve cover issues, you know, water pump problems.
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You got all these specialty parts that you need to throw in there to
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make the car reliable on the weekend.
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Now, that being said, they're not expensive, but it starts to add
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up very quickly, much like a boat.
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I recommend them for people that want, like you said, a very well balanced
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car, something that's very forgiving.
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It's not a car that's going to correct your mistakes, but you're going
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to learn a lot from, from the E36.
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It's a very forgiving platform.
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So those are those are my notes on that car and the best way to fix your bmw
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e36 is with volkswagen parts 100 Yeah, so so that so there you go at prime
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example You bring that up and there's a backstory behind this and really it deals
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with the way The radiators bleed and all this kind of stuff and the way it was
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engineered One of our members mike can go into Much more detailed than I can
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on the missteps in engineering there.
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But yeah, I ended up fixing my car's, let's say, call it air pocket
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problems in the water cooling system, which those cars are notorious
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for by using VW parts, right?
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Because I didn't want to spend a jillion dollars on European, you know,
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S52 parts and all this kind of stuff.
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Because as we've always said, there's a M tax, especially with
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the M versions of the BMWs where just because it's got that badge.
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It costs 10 times the amount for, for whatever reason, again, it's a detractor,
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but you have to put it relative to a lot of other cars where let's say the
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Porsche tax is much higher or the AMG tax is much higher than the M taxes,
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depending on, you know, the year.
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So going down the line, there's the E36.
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And when we've just been, uh, waxing idiotic about for the last five minutes,
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now let's talk about his big brother.
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The newer, more powerful, some say more balanced, uh, E46.
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Personally, this is my favorite of the BMWs.
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I just, I think for looks wise, they just look amazing.
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Uh, and I think they're, they're great cars.
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Just, uh, to have on the street as well as the track, obviously they're,
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they're newer, uh, newer technology.
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So it may be a little bit better car creature comforts inside.
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Not that you need that for a track car, but some people that
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want to do a dual purpose, they may care about things like that.
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They're bigger.
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They're more powerful than the E36.
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Um, they've got fantastic power and handling and the last of the purpose built
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M cars, the S54, I think is what it was.
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The motor that came in those, uh, 340 some horsepower.
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straight six.
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Just great cars.
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And they've got huge aftermarket support as well.
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They've got some known failure points and known issues, especially with the M.
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Other than that, I think they're great cars.
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Another problem with them, though, is they're very hard to come by.
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Especially the M3s now they're because they're so desirable, especially the
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manual is very difficult to come by.
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Now you can get the SMG transmission, which is, it's very easy to actually,
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well, I don't want to say easy.
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If you're, if you're a DIYer, it may be easy for you, but parts aren't
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that expensive to do the swap because you don't need to change the trans.
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You just need to change some of the components with it.
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But what are your thoughts on the E46?
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I don't want to focus too much on the M cars.
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Although most of my experiences with the E46 M cars, the base
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E46 is, and I want to, I want to put this in a year perspective.
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If I remember correctly, and I'm not a BMW expert, the E46 chassis ran from
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2000 to 2005, 2006 ish timeframe versus the E36, which ran from 1993 to 1999.
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So it's a much newer car, much more modern technology.
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It's larger than the.
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36.
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It's heavier, but that's okay because it makes a lot more power, longer
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rev range, all that kind of stuff.
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I've been very fortunate to drive all sorts of different E46s.
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Bargain basement, a 330i is the way to go if you don't want to pay the M tax.
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Again, we mentioned that earlier.
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On the E46 platform.
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And as you're saying, the E46 N3s are getting harder and harder to find.
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They are more expensive to operate, but they do reward you when you've
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done the proper maintenance and the proper modifications to those cars.
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Big failure point is the rear subframe.
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They tend to crack, especially under load.
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A lot of guys have either already welded them, even on the street.
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This is an issue they've taken care of it.
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So there's going to be some buyer's guides you're going to have to look
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into to make sure that your E46 was properly maintained and a lot of the
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known issues were already taken care of.
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This is where you get into that debate of build versus buy.
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And on the BMW side, if you're looking to graduate very quickly into something
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more competitive, like time trials or road racing or club racing, an organization
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like SCCA, the Sports Car Club of America, or NASA, which is the National
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Autosport Association, then buy something already done and all the big dollar
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items have already been taken care of.
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As well as the fact that the price point is really good because a race car is
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worth more in pieces than it is whole.
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And if you're looking to pick up somebody's last year car or car that you
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know They're done with because they're graduating out of you know, specky 46
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or onto another class It's a good time to pick up a car at very good value Next
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up on the list is one of our personal favorites, the Mark 4 Volkswagen.
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The Mark 4 Volkswagens spanned from 1998, if you start with the
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Beetle, all the way through 2006.
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The more common is 99 to 05.
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It's very difficult to find 98s and 06s, but that's going to be your Beetles,
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your Golfs, your Jettas, your Mark 1 TTs.
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They're all built on the same chassis.
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fourth generation Volkswagen chassis.
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It's a very unique chassis.
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It was a ground up redo.
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Whereas the marks one, two, and three were all evolutions of the mark one chassis.
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And then oddly enough, after the mark for the five, six, seven and seven and a half
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and so on are also all the same chassis.
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So the mark four stands alone.
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A lot of people don't like it because what VW tried to do was they got
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rid of the harshness of the early cars, made them a little bit more.
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Autobahn cruiser cars, which meant adding a lot of bushings, adding a lot
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of other things to smooth those cars out.
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But you have four engine packages to choose from, but two that are
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only really important at the track.
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That's the one eight turbo 20 valve and the 2.
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8 liter VR six.
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I recommend the 24 valve VR six for a million different
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reasons over the 12 valve.
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But realistically, if you're going to get in on a mark for
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a couple of recommendations.
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the Jetta because it's so cheap and it actually handles the best of the
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bunch because it maintains the c shape between the a and c pillars which is
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actually what that chassis needs in order to handle correctly because it
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was designed to be used for the beetle which also has that arch shape to it and
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the suspension and the way the chassis flexes it doesn't really work great.
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on the golf.
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That one personally handles the worst of the bunch, even though we all have them.
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The Jetta is better balanced, but the price point is really low on those cars
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versus a GTI where you'll pay three or four times as much for the same car that
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you can get in a four door sedan, which by the way, only weighs about 50 pounds
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difference between the GTI and the Jetta.
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So there's a lot to consider there.
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You can get into a 1.
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8 turbo Jetta.
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You don't need to get a GLI or anything special, 20th anniversary
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editions, and all this kind of stuff.
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Go buy yourself a thousand dollar Jetta with 150 K on it
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and run it till it explodes.
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But do the timing belt first.
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And we know somebody that's done just that bought a car on
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Friday and raced it on Saturday.
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A hundred percent.
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So Brad, what are some of the drawbacks being a mark four
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owner yourself for that platform?
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Well, let's see, I've owned, um, probably four Mark fours in at this point.
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And obviously for a track car, people say front wheel drive, not the way to go.
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I'm of the opinion that front wheel drive is fun wheel drive.
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But a lot of the gripes about front wheel drive is it understeers like a pig.
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You can't get them to turn.
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You can't get them to rotate.
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Take it from me as someone who constantly is, you know, oversteering
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and drifting out of Oak tree at.
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And even, uh, facing the wrong direction at pit race and turn
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one, those cars can definitely be made to oversteer and rotate.
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There, there's no problems about that at all.
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So that's some of the gripes about, um, parts they're old cars.
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Now, some of the distributors like ECS, there, there are still
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parts available, but sometimes they're hard to get expeditiously.
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I don't know.
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I, I don't, I like them.
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There's how many of them in the group, 10 in the group or something like that.
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There's, there's eight dedicated Mark four track cars right now.
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So, I mean, that's not our entire population, but there's a, you know,
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where we're own little tribe, uh, you know, the Mark four mafia, which
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we'll probably have everybody together on a future episode to talk about.
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Sing kumbaya about how much we love those cars, but there are some drawbacks
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to them and front wheel drive isn't for everybody, but I will say this.
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Front wheel drive is very forgiving on track but to go fast
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in a front wheel drive takes a special type of driving style.
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It is not for the faint of heart.
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You can have a lot of fun in a rear wheel drive but you can, you can do
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some really, really interesting things that a rear wheel drive can't in a, in
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a well prepared front wheel drive car.
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Before we move on though, there's one other failure point IV Volkswagen that
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we would be remiss if we, we did not.
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Tell our listeners about, Oh, how many axles have I had to replace owning my car?
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How many axles have you had to replace?
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Yeah.
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So that is, that is a huge drawback.
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And that is a drawback of almost every front wheel drive on track
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is the axles are the weak point.
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Now, if you go to our website and search mark for build, we have a build
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sheet going from stage one to stage four to kind of help guide you through
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building those cars, learning from all of our mistakes and wasted money.
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But axles are a big one.
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I cannot recommend enough.
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The axles provided through USRT, which is usually sideways
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rally team out of New Jersey.
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They're built in part and licensed through the drive shaft shop in North Carolina,
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and they're 500 horsepower drag axles.
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And once you upgrade to something like that, you don't have any
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issues with those cars anymore.
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Reason being most of the cheap Chinese axles that you get from,
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you know, advanced auto, they're designed to get you down the road at.
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65 miles an hour, 55, whatever your highway speed limit is.
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But when you're racing, there's a lot of pressure on the suspension, especially
14:07
front wheel drive, because it's doing the turning, the accelerating and the
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braking all on those front two wheels.
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Another failure point because of that is the wheel bearings,
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you know, stuff like that.
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And so once the CV start to go, the wheel bearings start to go with them.
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It becomes a whole kind of cascading effect there.
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The reason those drag axles are so good.
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Just, you know, we can talk about this in another episode in more detail.
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Inner CVs are from a Porsche and the outer CVs are from an Audi Quattro.
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So they're really overbuilt for that car, which is fantastic.
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And they can be rebuilt as we've, we've determined, we tore a boot in my car and
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I call a drive shaft shop and in, what was it a week, they had a replacement
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boot out to me so you can call them
14:50
and get, you damage something.
14:52
Yeah, exactly.
14:53
So what's next up on our list there, Brad?
14:55
Uh, we've got the MINI, which, when I was looking for track cars, it was
14:59
one of the ones on my short list.
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Why I say short list, it was actually probably 100 cars deep.
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Because anything that, you know, had a motor and a steering wheel and was not
15:05
a truck was on my list at one point.
15:07
The MINI Coopers, they're, they're like the GTIs.
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Some people think that they're, they're better.
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They're, they're better handling cars.
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The motors are, even though they're a little smaller, they're quite torque ier.
15:17
They're quirky little cars.
15:19
Uh, they're tons of fun to drive.
15:21
It's having the wheels all the way at the corners of the car.
15:24
I mean, I think that's a, that's a BMW specialty.
15:27
I mean, even the three series that they, that's how they just engineer the
15:30
vehicles and it lends them to be, to give a very good driving experience.
15:34
And let me specify, we're talking about the newer BMW owned, uh, mini Coopers,
15:39
not the old ones, not the rally champs that are impossible to find in the U S.
15:44
Um that I would have to wear his shoes because I don't fit in them
15:47
now We're talking about the newer more refined bmw owned mini coopers.
15:52
What are some of the drawbacks for them though?
15:54
So we have a build sheet for the r5x platform minis I believe i'm not
15:59
a mini expert, but we do have some mini experts in the club some of the
16:02
drawbacks Having instructed them and having driven a few of them on track,
16:07
mostly the supercharged minis versus the, the later turbocharged ones.
16:10
The short wheel base makes them feel really, really twitchy and
16:14
really unsettled versus a longer wheel base car like a Mark four or
16:20
something, like a, a Focus St or, or a Fiesta or something like that.
16:23
The mini's just so short that you just never feel settled down.
16:27
And actually that's a common theme I've had with.
16:30
Other BMWs, there's something about that extremity, that the
16:33
suspension geometry, that they just never feel like they're planted.
16:37
Like you would get with, you know, let's say if you've ever driven an
16:40
Audi Quattro, where it feels like it's just digging itself into the earth.
16:43
BMW engineering makes them overly complex.
16:47
And they're also prone to, you know, the seven plagues as we've
16:51
seen through one of our members.
16:53
I mean, they've caught on fire.
16:54
At the end of the day, there's not a lot of space.
16:58
To work under the hood on a mini and being a front wheel drive.
17:01
It's already compact to maximize the people space But working on a mini
17:06
is just exceptionally challenging and much like the beetles You you just
17:10
kind of throw your hands up and go service position equal motor out, right?
17:14
Because that's the only way you have any Space, but they are cheap.
17:18
They do share some components that you can borrow.
17:21
Let's say from a Miata, like wheels and tires and things like that.
17:26
Just, just don't buy the Enkeis cause they break.
17:28
Yeah.
17:29
So we've experienced that as well.
17:31
Operating a mini, if you, as long as you take care of some of the issues, I've
17:34
heard there's some seals that need to be taken care of, things like that, that
17:37
are on the build list that, uh, Steve and Spencer have put together for us.
17:40
Like every car, once it's all set up, you really don't have to worry about it much.
17:43
It's just down to breaks and.
17:46
Tires and they'll pretty much last you an entire season and the price point
17:50
on the mini is actually really good because they're getting older as well.
17:53
And I have heard that the motor mounts are a failure point on those cars as well.
17:57
I mean, we do those up front on the Volkswagen's because we know the stock
18:01
ones are just garbage again, right back to those very soft bushings to
18:04
try to make the cars drivable every day versus, you know, track use.
18:08
So coming up next is the.
18:11
The famous BRZ and FRS, the Burrs and the Furs twins, uh, that Subaru and Toyota
18:17
got together and put out a few years ago.
18:20
I love child.
18:21
They would be amazing cars if they had about a hundred more horsepower.
18:27
Not even that, if they had about 50 more horsepower.
18:30
I think they would be a blast to drive.
18:32
They're, they're supposed to be well balanced.
18:34
Their rear wheel drive, manual transmission.
18:37
Uh, they're very forgiving.
18:38
I guess that also lends to being a little bit lower horsepower.
18:41
They're very popular.
18:42
They're really popular with the kids.
18:44
They're not very expensive.
18:45
Brand new ones are low thirties and high twenties.
18:49
Um, they've got a huge aftermarket again, Toyota and Subaru, uh, kids love them.
18:53
Now I will say that I've heard a rumor, the new one coming out,
18:58
I don't know if it's 2021 or 2022 is going to have a turbo.
19:02
That might be something to keep an eye on.
19:04
I think they redesigned it.
19:06
The look also is quite similar to the new Supra.
19:08
So it's supposed to be like a baby Supra.
19:10
They're great little cars if they're well sorted as.
19:14
We've seen it, uh, certain race functions with one group, Emra.
19:18
Uh, they can be made super fast, allegedly in fairly stock trim.
19:23
Yeah, the jury's still out on that one, but, uh, to your, to your point.
19:28
Right.
19:28
So I think some of the downsides, the BRZ, you covered it in base trim.
19:33
The BRZ's engine is not going to excite you.
19:36
If any of our listeners are, are of a, of an older generation and ever,
19:39
they ever got an opportunity to drive a Porsche 944 in its base trim.
19:44
Uh, it's the same thing.
19:45
It's one of those cars that they handle fantastic.
19:48
They're quick and nimble.
19:50
But they just don't like the world on fire.
19:53
They don't make any good sounds.
19:54
They just, it's just kind of boring and mundane.
19:57
I hate to say, but you're right.
20:00
The price point is good, especially for a car that you can just go
20:02
buy off of the Toyota dealership or the Subaru dealership lot.
20:06
today for, you know, let's say sub 30, 000 and go have fun and do nothing to it.
20:11
Granted, I don't live far from IAG and I see plenty of those
20:14
cars out there being modified.
20:16
And I've gotten an opportunity to instruct in some modified BRZs and stock ones.
20:21
And I will say the modified ones, especially the supercharged
20:24
cars are light years better.
20:26
And that added, like you said, extra 50 horsepower makes.
20:29
All the difference in making that car exciting in the same way.
20:31
The nine 44 turbo really turned it up to 11 compared to the base, you
20:36
know, nine 24, nine 24 S and nine 40 fours that they were built on.
20:41
The other thing I will say, I have heard from some BRZ owners that when
20:45
you really start to push them, they tend to be a little bit fragile.
20:48
There's some parts in there that have to be upgraded, but
20:50
if you're just starting out.
20:52
Very forgiving car, much like the E36, much like a 944.
20:56
It's going to reward you.
20:57
You're going to have a lot of fun, but you probably will crave more as you go along.
21:02
And it's a Subaru motor underneath, uh, in both the, the, the Subaru and the Toyota.
21:08
And I believe that boxer motor traditionally have head gasket issues.
21:12
I believe, and I'm not a Subaru expert.
21:14
I know Sam knows more, and there's a bunch of other Subaru guys in the club.
21:17
I believe this is a different motor.
21:19
Then, uh, somebody online will correct my, my acronym here.
21:22
I think it's the EJ that's in like the WRXs and stuff.
21:25
This was actually a new motor from Subaru.
21:28
It has a Toyota valve train and Toyota ejection system on it.
21:32
So it is a, a cross platform between the two brands.
21:36
But yes, at the end of the day, the car, you know, whether you buy
21:39
it with a Scion badge, you buy it with Toyota badges, a GT86, or you
21:43
buy a BRZ, they're all the same.
21:45
So up next on the list, it looks like we jump.
21:48
Off the deep end into a pile of bratwurst and there's a porsche 996 on
21:53
this list So we're like wait a minute.
21:55
I thought we were talking about starter cars, right?
21:59
But the 996 actually makes the list because it is very much that it is
22:03
like the perfect starter porsche If you don't want a front engine Porsche,
22:08
like a nine 44 or nine 68 or something like that, the nine nine six is
22:12
really great value for the money and it wins out over the aging nine 44.
22:18
But there are some concerns with the nine nine six.
22:20
And I know you've looked into this car extensively, Brad.
22:22
So tell us about it.
22:24
The, uh, IMS bearing the intermediate shaft bearing is a huge fail point.
22:29
And.
22:30
I mean, not even just for the 996, for the 911, but also for the,
22:35
the Boxsters of the same year.
22:37
If that goes, I mean, you're putting 20 grand into a new motor.
22:40
People can buy these cars, uh, once you do, if it hasn't been
22:44
done already, make sure that that failure point is taken care of.
22:48
I can't imagine because it's a Porsche, Porsche parts, aftermarket parts and
22:52
stuff, even though they are there.
22:53
They're going to be quite pricey.
22:55
Just like with BMW, usually you pay the M tax with Mercedes.
22:58
You're going to pay the AMG tax.
22:59
If you've got an AMG model Porsches, you're going to pay the Porsche tax,
23:03
regardless of what Porsche model you have.
23:05
If you've got a little bit of money to burn, uh, and you're looking for something
23:09
There's tons of aftermarket support.
23:11
There's the Porsche Club of America is a club dedicated to Porsches.
23:16
Uh, you can get into their specific Porsche races and
23:19
huge, uh, support system there.
23:21
Those people know everything there is possibly to know about Porsches.
23:25
Now they tend to not like the 996 because of the looks.
23:29
I don't know why.
23:30
I think they're great looking cars.
23:31
They say they've got the, the egg drop headlights.
23:34
I don't see a problem with them.
23:35
I would, I would own a 996 if I could afford it right now.
23:37
And I think it was, it was also, uh.
23:39
Old guard versus new school adopting water cooling for the first time,
23:44
you know, a lot of those, the Porsche club racer guys, you know, they're
23:47
dedicated air cooled cars, right?
23:49
Oh, I gotta have my two seven RS.
23:51
I gotta have my nine, you know, my three, six twin spark, you know, all those,
23:55
those motors that they were classic, especially a lot of those guys are
23:58
still running vintage, but now time has, has progressed and you're seeing nine,
24:03
nine, six, nine, nine, seven, nine, nine ones, you know, GT twos, GT threes.
24:07
They're all water cooled 911s now, but the thing is in the 996 and the reason it's a
24:11
good starter car, if you want a different experience, a 911 is a completely
24:16
different driving experience because it's, you know, it's like throwing a hammer.
24:19
It's a front wheel drive with five reverse gears, right?
24:23
And one forward, but realistically it is bargain basement.
24:28
There was a period there.
24:29
You could get.
24:30
A 996, whether it had the IMS done or not for sub 15 K.
24:35
I mean, all day long.
24:37
I'm like cars.
24:37
com.
24:38
You'd see, Oh, 996, uh, 13, 000.
24:40
And I'm like, what?
24:42
So if that's your cup of tea, you know, that little bit of roll gray there,
24:47
or maybe sauerkraut in this case.
24:50
The, the, uh, the 996 is definitely the way to go, but again, do your
24:54
due diligence, as Brad said, talk to some people about those cars
24:58
first to figure out what's going on.
25:00
So what's next, Brad?
25:01
Next, we've got the Ford Mustang specifically.
25:05
We're going to focus on the 2014 and up the redesign, independent rear suspension,
25:10
you know, all that good stuff they've got.
25:12
Three motors, four motors, depending on if you go with the, the GT three
25:16
50 R or like a GT 500 or something to me, there's really only one motor.
25:20
It's, it's the coyote V8 or nothing at all.
25:23
You can take the turbo EcoBoost motor.
25:25
They're great little motors.
25:26
You can get a lot of power out of them.
25:29
But it sounds like a weed whacker going down the track.
25:31
I mean, if you have a Mustang, it shouldn't sound like that.
25:34
The V6 is another stout motor.
25:35
I don't know if they're still offering it with the V6, but
25:38
that was another good motor.
25:39
I had 300 something horsepower in a base car.
25:42
It's pretty, pretty good.
25:43
But for me, if you're going to own a Mustang, then you've got to have all of
25:46
the Mustang, which is all eight cylinders.
25:49
All the crowd control.
25:52
So having had the pleasure of instructing and driving several of these cars,
25:57
I'm really infatuated with them.
25:59
They're actually really, really good.
26:01
And it's, for me, it started almost before this car came out.
26:03
I got an opportunity to coach in some boss three Oh twos, the 2013s.
26:07
And the rumor has it though, the car was completely redesigned.
26:11
I have my speculations that the German division of Ford
26:13
was involved because it's.
26:14
Unlike anything else, the suspension was derived from the 302 and the 302 at
26:19
that time when I got in out of it for the first time on track, I was like,
26:23
this car is fantastic out of the box.
26:26
I could not believe how good the handling was that carried over to the
26:31
S five 50, which is that the current generation of Mustangs and the engine
26:36
choice is really up to you because.
26:38
As you've alluded to the mods are there and we have proof through several members
26:43
The four cylinder is fast, especially with that ford power pack, which is you
26:46
know, it doesn't void your warranty It's something they sold to boost the power
26:49
make it almost 300 at the rear wheels and the four cylinder screams It's a
26:53
lot more reliable than something like the focus rs, which has the same motor
26:58
We've seen nothing but problems with those cars and that's why obviously
27:00
they're not on this list And I think it's because of the packaging too.
27:03
I mean, the, the, that short nose, everything's compact in the Focus RS.
27:07
Um, there's, there's no room for it because the Mustang was designed for the
27:10
V8 or designed to at least house a V8.
27:13
There's so much more room in there.
27:15
Air probably flows better.
27:16
These are just my assumptions and conspiracy theories at this point, but
27:20
that's why that that's my personal belief as to why the Mustangs are more reliable.
27:26
And being an American car, like you said, has great aftermarket support wheels,
27:29
brakes, wings, you know, whatever, bling, whatever you want to put on there.
27:33
And that's great.
27:34
But downside to the Mustang is it is a bit heavy, especially when you're comparing
27:38
it to the Corvette, which I don't know why they try to compare themselves.
27:42
Cause It doesn't belong in that pony war, right?
27:44
It's Camaro and Mustang.
27:46
It's always been that way, but they try to reach and say, Oh, the Corvette.
27:49
And it does, it can perform and it can get out there and beat up on some
27:53
Corvettes, especially with the five Oh and the GT three 50, but it is heavy.
27:56
Do notice that when you drive it, the hood is kind of long.
27:59
So you have to get used to the perspective of looking out over
28:01
the front of the battleship.
28:04
But the thing is.
28:05
The weight balance is really good.
28:07
So the car is really predictable.
28:09
It's got a lot more intelligence in it.
28:11
The independent suspension is fantastic.
28:13
I will say the handling on the four cylinder is better than the
28:16
Coyote, just because it weighs probably half as much as the V8 does.
28:20
Right.
28:20
And I think the other big negative to having a Mustang track car is that you're
28:25
never allowed to go to cars and coffee.
28:27
Ever.
28:28
Yeah.
28:29
Sure.
28:29
You, you lose that right.
28:31
The second you sign on the dotted line, and we don't want to
28:33
just focus on the Mustang here.
28:35
As you brought up earlier, you alluded to the, the pony war.
28:39
There's also the Camaros and the, the challengers.
28:42
They're both in the same vein is the Mustang.
28:45
I think the Mustang wins on track.
28:48
Yeah.
28:49
A hundred percent.
28:50
If you read any road and track or car and driver article about
28:55
the comparison between the three and the Mustang is definitely the
28:58
better choice for the track car.
29:00
The Challenger is a better choice for the street.
29:03
It's a nice place to be, especially the redesigned interior and the newer ones.
29:08
I know the exterior of the car is the same, has been the
29:10
same for what, 200 years now?
29:12
It has not changed at all.
29:14
Uh, I think people used to pull ox carts with them.
29:17
Yeah, but the car itself is, it's, there's no need to change it.
29:21
Why change something that works?
29:23
Uh, they sell really well.
29:24
They're, they're really comfortable.
29:25
They're great.
29:26
So I would call them great just touring cars.
29:29
And the problem with the Camaro, which we're kind of avoiding talking about
29:32
here, the problem with the Camaro is, and I don't want to offend Brett, who we'll
29:35
have on, on a later episode, for sure.
29:38
The problem with the Camaro is it's heavy, just like the Mustang is,
29:40
but I think it's heavier even then.
29:43
And when you compare the package.
29:45
And the price to get like a one L E or a Z 28 or a ZL one or something like that.
29:50
You just go, I'm just going to go buy a Corvette, right?
29:53
Because it's the same power or like, but the Corvette is a better car.
29:58
And then like, you know, why do I want to drive around in a
30:00
Corvette that weighs as much as, you know, my wife's minivan, right?
30:04
So I can tell you why though, because I don't fit properly on a Corvette.
30:10
I fit in one of the, some of the most fun I've ever had on track.
30:14
Is riding shotgun in Brett's Camaro.
30:16
I will give you that.
30:17
I will give you that.
30:17
And that's actually the down, one of the downsides we forgot
30:19
to talk about in the BRZ.
30:21
It is a small cabin.
30:22
So for you, I don't think you'd be very comfortable in the BRZ, you know,
30:25
after a half hour stint, not with a helmet on for me, the Camaro, just
30:29
going back to wrap that thought up.
30:31
I always downvote that car because I have a hard time seeing out of it.
30:35
And it's not because I'm short.
30:37
It's just.
30:37
Because I feel like it's a chop top and the visibility, especially kind of
30:42
over your shoulder and the blind spots.
30:44
And it has those, those big hips and stuff.
30:46
It just, the belt line is a little too high in that car.
30:50
And I understand that's just, this is the way cars are being designed nowadays.
30:54
But in that car, especially the belt line, it's just, it's just too high.
30:58
There's not enough window space and you're right.
30:59
That's one of the criticisms you ask anybody that, that
31:02
does tests and reviews of them.
31:04
The first complaint is I can't see out of it.
31:06
And that translates to the track for those listening at home.
31:09
Visibility at the track is key.
31:11
You need to be able to see where you're going.
31:13
You need to be able to look across the A pillars and, and,
31:16
and look at the apex, right?
31:17
You need to be able to see behind you who's coming.
31:19
That's a big drawback to the Lotus Elise like Andrew just picked up.
31:22
You can't see out of those cars.
31:23
I mean, I have a hard time in the Audi with, uh, I have a TT and it's the same
31:27
thing with that really small back glass.
31:29
It makes it very difficult to see sometimes.
31:31
So you have to get really strategic.
31:32
But we'll, we'll park that for now.
31:34
We can talk about the pony wars at another time.
31:37
Now we're going back to front wheel drive and we're going to talk about
31:41
the Hondas, I mean, Hondas, Acuras.
31:43
I mean, we can lump in the Nissan Sentros and, and anything really small,
31:49
economical front wheel drive, small motor.
31:51
You do not need to make a lot of power to have fun at the track.
31:55
You need something that's going to be nimble and it's going to
31:58
be reliable where you're going to be able to find parts for it.
32:02
And the Honda is especially the, the, the nineties and early 2000s SIs,
32:06
in addition to the Acura Integras and everything are great options.
32:10
And also you can get the, the prelude.
32:13
If you want to be a little funky, you want something a little bit different.
32:15
We've got a couple of members that are.
32:17
Honda fanatics and they've got the preludes and stuff like that.
32:21
The big bore, the big bore Honda.
32:22
Yeah, the big bore Honda.
32:25
They're, they're great cars.
32:26
They're reliable.
32:27
I mean that you can run the, the heck out of them.
32:29
You can probably get four or five hours out of them.
32:34
Did full tilt, a wide open throttle.
32:37
And the, you just ask for more, they take a beating and they do not care.
32:42
They're very cheap to operate.
32:43
If anybody's ever seen fast and the furious, which we hope our
32:47
listeners have at least watched the first one, they'll know that the
32:50
aftermarket support for that is huge, especially if you want spoon engines.
32:54
Ryan to rob banks, you know, but yeah, they're, they're great cars.
33:00
They're, they don't have the luxurious factor of.
33:04
The mark fours really thin materials, really thin metal and
33:08
sheet metal and stuff like that.
33:10
Um, they don't have the fit and finish of some of those other cars, but
33:13
for a track car, who the hell cares?
33:14
Right.
33:15
And that's actually part of their beauty.
33:16
And part of the, the, is the simplicity and the lightness, right?
33:19
Uh, the, the, the Lotus mantra, add light, add lightness, but, uh, the
33:24
Honda's already start there, but the thing is, and I've had the pleasure of,
33:27
of running many Honda's and we have dinoed several of them and things like that.
33:32
The Honda's an interesting car because as you said, it will take a
33:36
beating and it really reminds me of the older Italian cars, you know,
33:40
those spaghetti powered motors that live their lives at 9, 000 RPM and
33:44
they're not happy if they're not there.
33:46
The Honda's are very similar.
33:47
They don't, they're not known for making powerful engines, you know,
33:50
and let's take the NSX's and, and all those things off the table.
33:53
Let's just talk about the four cylinders, right?
33:55
Anywhere from the 1500s to the, to the two liters, you know.
33:59
Discounting the bigger motors.
34:02
You look at the numbers and it's like 900 horsepower and 43 foot pounds of torque.
34:09
And torque is what you feel.
34:10
And that's usually the drawback.
34:12
The negative that people give about a Honda is it just
34:16
doesn't feel like it's moving.
34:17
But when in reality, you're looking at your exit speeds and because you can
34:21
keep it wound up because you can stay in the power band, as long as you're above
34:25
VTEC, you can actually go really fast.
34:27
And the cars are deceptively quick.
34:29
I will say, dynoing it, uh, we dynoed Matthew's Civic Si, he's got a 99, and off
34:35
VTEC, until VTEC kicked in, it made the same power, identical to a spec Miata 1.
34:42
6 liter, right, so dollar for dollar, the B16, And a one six miata made the same
34:47
power when vtec kicked in all of a sudden the torque curve just stayed the same
34:50
And the horsepower nearly doubled and it sounds like a completely different engine.
34:54
It's something to get used to Those are the type of cars.
34:57
You really have to scruff them.
34:58
You have to drive them really hard It all gets kind of obfuscated by those
35:03
torque numbers and all that kind of stuff But it doesn't mean you're not
35:06
going to have fun But again, if you're looking for cheap easy big parts, uh
35:11
aftermarket support the honda is a good choice It's a good recommendation.
35:15
All right, one of your personal favorites, Corvette.
35:20
But big asterisks is here, right?
35:23
It's kind of like the Volkswagen's.
35:25
There's one generation that's really a great starter car, and that's the C5.
35:31
The C5 being the, correct my, correct my years on those cars.
35:35
It's in the early 2000s, much like 97 to 2004.
35:40
There you go.
35:41
Okay.
35:41
So a lot of these cars, you're starting to realize they're overlapping here.
35:45
The 46 is the Corvettes, the Porsches.
35:47
We're talking about even the VWs.
35:48
They're all in a similar age range.
35:50
They're getting up there.
35:51
15 17 almost 20 years old.
35:53
They're really affordable.
35:54
They were good cars.
35:55
Then cars today are very different.
35:57
But the C five specifically again, very different than
36:00
the cars that came before it.
36:02
But also different than the cars that came after the C6 was a complete
36:05
redesign and everything's based on that.
36:07
The C4 carried over from the older generation, like
36:10
the C3s and stuff like that.
36:11
So to me, the five felt like a different chassis.
36:15
And I I've been very fortunate to spend time with the national Corvette
36:19
museum organization, the Corvette club and have ridden in various different
36:24
generations of Corvette on track.
36:26
And I always feel the most comfortable in the C5.
36:28
The C4 is kind of rides like a truck.
36:32
The C6 is super twitchy.
36:34
The C7, you feel like you're in a jet fighter.
36:36
It's a completely different experience.
36:37
The C5 is a driver's car.
36:39
It's got big horsepower, you know, for that time period, 400 torques.
36:45
And you don't need to do any mods to it because even now they're
36:48
talking about spec Corvette racing, which is all based on the C5.
36:51
So I look at it as big motor, big fun.
36:54
To clarify the Z06 is the one with the 400 horsepower.
37:00
In, in gobs of toric, if you get the, the lower model, uh, I say lower model, but
37:05
like a base C five, uh, with the target top, they're around 345 horsepower is
37:11
what they were advertised with the crank.
37:12
And then for the Z O six, you want 2002 to 2004 for the 405 horsepower.
37:19
The first of the 06 2001 had 385 horsepower, but you've always told me
37:24
with those American motors, throw a cam in there and an exhaust and all
37:28
of a sudden you got 100 horsepower.
37:29
Yeah, with the LS motors, they're very easy to mod.
37:33
The car is not very heavy.
37:34
I mean, so it's, it would not be hard.
37:36
You don't even really need all that power.
37:37
The power that comes with this is great, but they're I think
37:40
they're I think they're great cars.
37:41
They're a little more roomy than the newer vets It's still
37:45
90s chevrolet sitting in one.
37:47
So it's not a great place to be So you're rocketing down, you know the
37:50
back street of bir passing volkswagens and hondas and yeah, everything else
37:55
on this list Yeah, exactly, but it's to get to the point of cost of ownership.
38:00
They are A bit pricey to maintain the rear tires, the three 45s,
38:06
um, they've got a staggered setup.
38:07
So buying wheels for them, unless you get the same all around that
38:11
you've got to keep track of that.
38:13
So the expenses can start to add up for those cars, just maintenance
38:17
and everything like that.
38:18
Exactly.
38:19
And I think you're going to start to see what the spec Miata spec Miata with
38:23
this Corvette racing that's coming out.
38:26
You're going to see a lot of really interestingly, similarly, rather.
38:30
Prepared Corvettes.
38:32
And when people get out of the series after a year or two or three, because
38:35
that's usually kind of the length of a lot of those series, unless it's spec
38:38
Miata racing or spec E36, which now is, is actually kind of sun setting as well.
38:43
You're going to be able to pick up a spec Corvette for not a lot of money.
38:46
And those are going to be well prepared cars with log books sorted.
38:50
You want to go out and have fun.
38:52
Again, going back to what Sam said, when we quoted him, build versus buy, buy.
38:57
Next is the answer for 99.
38:59
9 percent of people out there.
39:02
All of this talk that we've been talking for, what, 45 minutes now?
39:05
It's all, it's all been for Nod because the answer has been right
39:08
there in front of us the whole time.
39:10
Oh man.
39:10
The Mazda Miata.
39:12
They have spec series and everything.
39:14
Uh, they, they, they're cheap.
39:15
I mean, you can get them, you can get the NAs for the bag of chips or something like
39:21
that, they're very well balanced cars.
39:23
They're very forgiving because they're low horsepower.
39:25
They don't, well, we've got a friend that loops it all the time, but that
39:28
may be his driving style versus.
39:31
But they're, they're great cars, tons of support.
39:33
Like, because there's a racing series, uh, they're, I mean, you can get tires
39:37
for them for 50 bucks, racing slicks.
39:40
Your goal is to go racing.
39:41
It's the best car.
39:42
The best thing about the Miata is being on track with other Miata's though.
39:46
When you're, if you're out on track in a Miata and you're at a DE event, for
39:50
example, where the, everybody's out there driving, whatever they brought.
39:54
You're going to be given a lot of point buys.
39:56
I'm not going to lie, but if you're out there doing spec racing, you
40:00
know, in the racing series, uh, then you're out there with everybody else.
40:04
You're all even playing field.
40:06
They're a ton of fun.
40:07
I've never been in one of the spec me out of races, but I've watched enough of them.
40:11
And why is that Brad?
40:12
Is there a reason why?
40:15
Uh, uh, no, I don't know.
40:17
I just haven't gotten into it.
40:18
I can't, I can't, I can't say why.
40:21
All right listeners, he's six foot four.
40:25
We're just gonna leave it there.
40:26
We're gonna leave it to your imagination.
40:28
I fit in some of the Miatas.
40:30
I do not fit in the originals.
40:31
The NB, I don't really fit.
40:34
But, why don't we talk about some of the other drawbacks other than the size.
40:38
Yeah, so I've been really fortunate.
40:40
I've driven all four generations of the Miata.
40:43
I will say this.
40:44
It's the early cars do not impress, right?
40:48
Especially the one sixes.
40:50
If you're looking at a spec car fully prepared with all the goodies and
40:53
bells and whistles, as long as it's not a cheater motor, you're looking
40:56
at somewhere between a hundred and a hundred and four wheel horsepower.
40:59
That is nothing to write home about.
41:01
And that's 104 people, not 140 104.
41:06
The other thing is the Miatas are.
41:08
Are now 30 years old, right?
41:09
They came out in 1990, probably in Japan, actually a little bit
41:12
earlier that probably 89, but still they're getting up there, they're
41:15
getting a little long in the tooth.
41:17
So don't expect big numbers, but it's a car actually modeled after the Lotus
41:21
Elan, if you really go back in time.
41:23
And so it has that simplicity.
41:25
It has that lightness and that 104 horsepower wheel horsepower, you'd
41:29
be amazed what you can do with that.
41:32
Because it really forces you to grow as a driver.
41:34
And so you end up driving that Miata at the absolute limit.
41:37
I mean, a lot of guys run 9 tenths, 10 tenths.
41:41
I run it 11.
41:42
But in your Miata, all of a sudden you're cranking up to 13 because you
41:46
have to overdrive it in some cases to really squeeze out every drip.
41:51
of blood out of that turnip.
41:52
That being said, when you graduate from Emiata as something else, you
41:56
just graduated jet fighter school because you get in any other car
42:00
and you're going to be fast, but you have to have the patience.
42:03
You can't expect it to be fast right away because it isn't, it's a momentum car.
42:07
Now every car has momentum.
42:08
I can hear people buzzing in my ear.
42:11
But it's one of those things where it's all about carrying speed and maximizing
42:15
your exit speed on every corner.
42:16
If I had to pick a Miata for myself, I really like the nc, which
42:22
is the third generation Miatas.
42:23
Those came out in 2005 to 2013.
42:27
There's actually an NC one and an NC two.
42:29
They did a, a split in there.
42:30
It's bigger, it's more comfortable.
42:32
It also has a two liter 16 valve instead of the, you know, you know the
42:36
smaller motors from the early days.
42:38
It's a much more rewarding car because it makes 140 horsepower ish.
42:43
I'm going to add that in there, but the NDs for me, the current ones are
42:48
too small because they've gone back to making them the size of the NANBs, but
42:54
Of the new generation, I'd have to pick the Fiat 124 just because I can get
42:59
it with a turbo and I can chip it and make double the horsepower immediately.
43:03
It is a different power plant.
43:04
It's not a Mazda power plant.
43:05
It's a Fiat Abarth multi air, uh, engine from the 500 Abarth.
43:10
So that's nice.
43:11
I also like the fact that the 124 is bigger, but I still, I call it a Fiata.
43:16
So it still lives in that Miata category, but you're going to spend a lot more for
43:19
a new Miata versus go on racing junk.
43:22
com.
43:23
Type in the word Miata, and there's probably a hundred of them to choose
43:25
from right now that you can get into that are fully sorted and fully prepared.
43:29
That's another car I would argue, if you're, if you're really destined on
43:33
going racing, just buy one already done, it's not worth building one from scratch.
43:38
But if you're looking at doing some DEs, driving it on the street, you know, to
43:42
throw the top down and have a good time, or do some autocross, you know, some, some
43:46
spirited driving, the Miata is the all around, probably best package on the list.
43:51
So with that being said, you know, not to wax poetic about the Miata
43:55
that much more, because the people that know, know, and the people that
43:58
don't are going to buy one soon.
43:59
So are there any honorable mentions on this list, Brad?
44:03
There are.
44:04
I don't know why there are, because all these cars that I'm looking
44:07
at here are turds, but there are some honorable mentions out there.
44:10
I mean, we briefly mentioned the Porsche 944.
44:13
Okay, sell me, sell me one, sell me why.
44:17
Okay, well, so the 944 was one of these weird cross pollination
44:22
projects where there's rumors, you know, some, some Porsche purists
44:25
have, are now arguing that the 944 was always supposed to be a Porsche.
44:30
And if you're in the VW VAG family, then you go, no, it was designed by
44:35
VW, much like the 914, and Porsche stole it from us and said, no, we're
44:38
going to slap our badge on and go to There's so many crossover parts
44:42
between like a Marco and rabbit.
44:43
And, uh, and an Audi truck and like in the 944, it's not even funny, right?
44:48
Because the, the part numbers, it's like, Oh, that's a door handle off
44:51
a rabbit, you know, stuff like that.
44:53
It makes it cheap, which is good because if you know how to cross
44:57
match the parts, you don't have to pay the Porsche tax because you can
45:00
buy the equivalent Volkswagen part, bolt it right up and you're done.
45:03
Also, if you're talking about it being cheap.
45:05
You're not talking about the turbo one then.
45:08
Correct.
45:09
Correct.
45:09
You're talking about the NAs.
45:11
Correct.
45:11
Now we already said we're comparing it to the BRZ, right?
45:14
So non turbo, normally aspirated, does motors run forever?
45:18
They're relatively bulletproof.
45:19
There's a couple of years there, 2.
45:21
5, 2.
45:21
7.
45:22
There's a rumored three liter in there.
45:24
I.
45:25
I would lean that towards the 968, don't, don't, don't
45:27
quote me on any of this stuff.
45:28
There is a 16 valve version in a normally aspirated car, all that kind of stuff.
45:32
But the Porsche 944 was one of, at the time, Porsche's highest
45:37
selling cars because it was more affordable than the 911.
45:41
It was more aerodynamic than the 911, you know, stuff like that.
45:44
And people could just get into it.
45:45
It was the every man Porsche, much like the Ferrari 308.
45:49
Was the every man's Ferrari.
45:50
That's why there's so many of those cars, despite the popularity from
45:53
Magnum PI and all that kind of stuff.
45:55
So tell me why you don't like it.
45:57
What's in the con column here.
45:59
I, I personally don't like the turbos, I guess, because I've
46:03
heard, well, one, they're expensive.
46:04
They're expensive to get into expensive.
46:06
They're hard to find.
46:07
They aren't very reliable and this is all purely hearsay.
46:10
I mean, I've got zero experience with them personally.
46:13
I prefer the lines and the look of the nine 24.
46:17
Hmm, but it's either a 9 44 NA or a 9 24.
46:21
The first thing I would do to it, other than painted it guards red, is to do
46:24
a motor swap and put a one at in it.
46:27
. or lss, right?
46:28
Like, no, no.
46:30
I'm, I'm gonna stick with the, the Volkswagen.
46:32
I'm gonna stick with the one at, or maybe a two liter if I want
46:34
to get a little saucy with it.
46:35
Mm-hmm.
46:36
or even a VR six.
46:37
You put any of those motors in it done?
46:39
Yeah, I, I'm sure it has.
46:41
I don't know, I just, I don't know.
46:43
I'm just not a fan for me.
46:45
I mean, the 944 is an icon, right?
46:47
I mean, they came out when I was a kid.
46:50
It's it's a car.
46:51
You know, you just see him everywhere.
46:52
I mean, you don't see him as much anymore, but it's an icon,
46:54
but it really hasn't aged.
46:56
Well, right?
46:57
I think owning and operating a 944.
46:59
Unless you're really willing to work on it yourself.
47:01
And we have a Porsche master mechanic, uh, in our group, who's told us
47:04
horror stories about these cars.
47:06
They do have head gasket issues.
47:08
Like you mentioned, because of the way the engine's constructed
47:10
and all this kind of stuff.
47:11
You need to be able to turn wrenches on those cars because there are still.
47:15
Uh mechanics out there paying off their mortgages on 944s because they've been
47:19
doing that since the 80s Um, so it's really important you get, you know,
47:24
kind of get your knuckles dirty and work on those your yourself I will again.
47:29
It's another car building from a base 944 is an expensive endeavor, right?
47:34
Getting all those high quality parts, taking care of all the mistakes, taking,
47:38
you know, doing 30 years of evolution.
47:41
Let somebody like, let somebody else's wallet have taken care of that.
47:44
Again, go to racing junk, find one that's already built.
47:46
Here's one we often forget.
47:48
And actually one of our members just picked one of these up.
47:50
It's the Nissan 350 Z the first generation, 2003 to whatever year.
47:55
And, and don't forget it's brother, the, the, the G a 35 and the G 37.
48:00
That is correct.
48:01
I like the Z it is 15 plus years old.
48:04
Now the prices have come way down on these cars.
48:07
The VQ motor, despite being a Renault engine that comes out
48:10
of a like run of the mill sedan, it's actually a very strong motor.
48:13
Renault is pretty well known for building very good high
48:18
performance engines in formula one and rally and things like that.
48:21
So I'm not saying that the street cars are as good, but the VQ is proven to be
48:27
a strong motor, much like the two JZ, much like the one eight turbo, the R
48:30
six and stuff like that, where you can mod them and they will take a beating.
48:34
And just keep going the handling on the 350z because I've had the pleasure of,
48:38
of instructing in a few of these cars.
48:40
They're super neutral, very forgiving.
48:44
And I've run in some that are modified and some that are almost bone stock.
48:48
And they're just, I couldn't believe how good they were and how
48:51
rewarding the driving experience was.
48:53
I kind of, I always had this stigma in my head of like, Oh
48:56
my God, it's like a 300 ZX from.
48:59
You know, just after the early Z cars had gone away.
49:02
The first time I got in a new Z, I was like, man, this is really cool.
49:06
But it's often a car that is just, again, overlooked.
49:09
It's forgotten.
49:10
And I would put it right up there with a proper mods.
49:13
It's just as good as like an E46.
49:16
So what do you think, Brad?
49:17
Uh, I don't fit.
49:19
So it's not on my list, but that's why I mentioned the G35 and G37s, because
49:24
I think they're, they're nice places to be, they're nice cars, they're bigger,
49:28
uh, obviously, uh, because it's got the infinity, that's more their, their street
49:31
touring car, uh, and I, it's pretty much the same car underneath, I'm sure
49:36
there are some minor differences, but basically they're the same car, it's
49:40
harder to find one in a manual, but they are out there, uh, the 350Z, if I fit
49:45
better, I, I'd be more But because I don't, and the same with the 944, I just,
49:50
I don't think I fit properly in them.
49:52
And it's just a problem that I have.
49:54
Uh, we'll talk about it at a later episode, but it's just, it's very
49:58
hard to find vehicles that are fun to drive that I actually fit in.
50:02
So I, I think you'll agree with me though.
50:04
You can pick a VQ out of all the cars going around track.
50:08
It has a very distinct sound to it.
50:10
It's not a bad sound.
50:11
You put an exhaust on a Z, you're, it's going to.
50:13
It's going to be pleasure to your ears if you're into slightly louder cars.
50:18
But I think the drawback for the Z is because there aren't
50:21
very many of them as DE cars.
50:23
There are lots of drift Z cars and Z cars built for other
50:27
disciplines, drag racing, etc.
50:29
You're going to be a bit of a pioneer when it comes to road racing.
50:33
So it means the aftermarket scene and the parts, and I'm going through this
50:37
with Portia Al right now, who we're going to have on the show at a later date
50:40
where he's like, so what am I targeting?
50:43
What should I be looking for?
50:44
I'm having, I'm kind of reaching here to find these things that for you guys
50:48
with BMWs and VWs and minis and all this stuff, you guys can get those parts
50:52
tomorrow and I'm like, yeah, so he's going to have to dig and do a little
50:55
homework, but he's starting to chip away at it and it's becoming easier.
50:58
So.
50:58
He's a bit of a pioneer, especially for us to say, Hey,
51:01
this is how you build a Z card.
51:02
And he's going to do a write up on that.
51:04
Well, if you're looking to buy one, be careful of the, what I call the
51:08
showy cars or the stance bro cars, because they've got all the wrong mods.
51:12
You're going to spend a lot of money to undo stuff, bring the camber back,
51:15
raise the car up, you know, get rid of the 10, you know, all these kinds of
51:18
things that are completely unnecessary at the track, by the way, airbags.
51:22
It's not a good suspension plan for road racing.
51:25
I've also heard rumors that the Zs are prone to have transmission problems.
51:28
There is an upgraded transmission for those.
51:31
And I know Matthew always tells me the joke is that the transes are so
51:35
bad in the Z cars that Nissan was just giving new ones and telling
51:38
people to throw the old ones away.
51:40
They weren't even doing core charges.
51:41
That being said, you know, it's 15 years later, so they've made modifications.
51:45
There's some updates to those, those cars to take care of the drivetrain issues.
51:49
Do your research, you know, dive into that kind of stuff before
51:52
going whole hog on a 350z.
51:54
So what's left?
51:56
Well, we've already touched on it a little bit earlier, but the final recommendation
52:01
we have is basically anything front wheel drive, a condo box sedan.
52:05
Our example would be a neon.
52:07
I mean, there was an entire racing series dedicated to the neon.
52:11
Uh, it's cheap, just like the Volkswagens out there.
52:15
Yeah, really inexpensive.
52:16
They got huge aftermarket support, especially because there
52:18
was a racing series for them.
52:20
They've got decent power.
52:22
They're a little torque here than the Hondas.
52:24
They're they're fun.
52:25
They're fun.
52:25
Little cars.
52:26
I don't think there's racing series for them anymore.
52:29
Um, but if you go on racing junk, I'm sure you can find a
52:31
ton of those cars out there.
52:33
Especially because there's no racing series.
52:36
I mean, we're talking about the original the the first gen, uh, neons There's
52:40
also the second gen neons which the srt4.
52:44
It's still a neon even though it's srt4.
52:47
It is still a neon But that's the big downside but those cars are
52:51
turbo cars turbo four cylinders.
52:53
They came out of the box with 300 horsepower.
52:56
I think 200 something on horsepower.
52:58
Very easily moddable.
52:59
You can get big power out of those cars.
53:01
More power means more responsibility and more things start to break.
53:05
Um, so you're mindful of that.
53:07
And then the downside is it's an eon.
53:11
So, and to your point, right, I have time trials.
53:15
For a couple seasons against, uh, through with SS c c A and every time I went,
53:19
there was always a neon in the group.
53:21
And one of the guys I was targeting in the, in the higher classes was
53:24
actually running a World Challenge neon.
53:26
And I was really surprised how much effort it took to chase that car
53:31
down, especially the, the s r T four.
53:33
I mean, they're making, well, I think we were limited to like
53:36
320 or 330 wheel horsepower.
53:39
And getting those kind of numbers out of an s r t Fort Neon was like, Okay.
53:44
Sure.
53:44
Let me just, let me just turn the dial and we're ready to go.
53:48
That being said, it's not a bad handling car.
53:50
It's another car you can dial in with, you know, lift throttle oversteer, just
53:53
like the Volkswagen's and stuff like that.
53:55
But yeah, to your point, I mean, there's a lot of jokes about the neon.
53:58
And again, it's why it's on our honorable mention list
54:01
because it's often overlooked.
54:02
It's a.
54:03
Cheap car to get into a cheap car to maintain.
54:06
There is some sharing there with it's a DSM platform or engine platform.
54:11
So you've got some of that Mitsubishi crossover, especially in the early cars.
54:14
If you can get a 16 valve sport, that's a, that's an Eclipse motor.
54:17
So it's a lot better than the run of the mill base Chrysler engine that
54:20
was, that was put in those cars.
54:21
The SRT four actually is overbuilt.
54:24
The block is the same as a mini.
54:26
If I remember correctly, somebody told me that, which is actually.
54:29
This is a Peugeot 206 or something like that.
54:31
So it's a European block and then everybody puts their head
54:34
on it and the turbo of choice and all that kind of stuff.
54:37
But again, it's not a car to kind of just turn your nose at if you're looking for
54:41
a starter car to get in on track use.
54:44
In order to widen your net.
54:46
We recommend a bunch of different websites if you want to look for some of the cars
54:50
that we've already talked about, or if you just want to see what else is out there.
54:53
I mean, there's tons of people racing cars.
54:56
Uh, and then when they race them, they get bored with them as you know, we all do.
55:00
Uh, and then they sell them.
55:02
Uh, so racing junk is a great place to look.
55:04
Um, there's also, uh, bring a trailer.
55:07
Uh, I think bring a trailer has a lot more of the.
55:11
I guess collector cars.
55:13
So that's Queens.
55:14
Yeah, the prices are going to be all over the map on that site.
55:19
Um, you can go either way.
55:20
Um, but based on some of our member experiences, you can often bring
55:25
unforeseen problems with some of these cars, as you said, these
55:30
garage Queens that may not be set up properly for for driving.
55:33
They're just weekend warriors, I guess.
55:37
And finally, I think, you know, one of my go tos is always cars.
55:40
com.
55:40
I mean, I'm not here to plug or advertise any one of these sites, but these are the
55:43
tools you have at your disposal to find an entry level, you know, a track car,
55:48
autocross car, you know, B road bomber.
55:51
I'm with you though.
55:54
I go back and forth, right?
55:55
I have fantasies.
55:55
I'm going to build one.
55:56
I'm going to buy one.
55:57
It all depends on the mood.
55:58
But I think these three websites you recommended are really,
56:01
really strong in that category.
56:03
And remember your mileage may vary.
56:05
So it's really, it's really going to be different for everybody.
56:08
And I will throw something out there.
56:09
You know, if you look hard enough on bring a trailer, you might
56:12
be able to pick up a painless Esperanto full on TT one race car.
56:16
So for not a lot of money and a parking in your garage, you never work on it,
56:21
but that's an episode for another day.
56:23
So.
56:24
In full disclosure, I just have to add this as we wrap up, our high level
56:28
assessment of all the cars on this list is really based on our members
56:32
and our owner and owner experiences.
56:34
We urge you to do your own research and fact check everything before
56:38
committing to any one of these vehicles.
56:39
GTM and Brad and I specifically, we're not responsible for your satisfaction,
56:44
your happiness, or your overall track performance, you know, winning
56:48
trophies, all that kind of stuff.
56:49
That's that's up to you with whatever vehicle you choose.
56:52
So make sure to visit, you know, vehicle specific online forums and or owners clubs
56:56
for highly detailed firsthand information on any vehicle you might be interested.
57:00
So with that, peace.
57:04
Peace.
57:09
So there you have it.
57:10
He broke it.
57:11
I fixed it.
57:12
Until next time, always remember, if you can take it apart without
57:15
breaking it, you can surely fix it.
57:17
From all of us at GTM, If you like what you heard and want to learn more about
57:22
GTM, be sure to check us out at www.
57:25
gtmotorsports.
57:27
org.
57:27
You can also find us on Instagram at GrandTouringMotorsports.
57:31
Also, if you want to get involved or have suggestions for future shows, you can
57:34
call or text us at 202 630 1770 or send us an email at crewchief at gtmotorsports.
57:42
org.
57:42
We'd love to hear from you.
57:43
Hey listeners, Crew Chief Eric here.
57:45
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57:48
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57:49
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57:51
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