Latest / Mythmakers / Did Peter Jackson Get It Right? - The Fellowship of the Ring Movie Reconsidered

Transcript

Did Peter Jackson Get It Right? - The Fellowship of the Ring Movie Reconsidered · Mythmakers

• 0:00
  Hello everybody and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
• 0:12
  creators brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and I'm an
• 0:19
  author and director of the Centre. And today I'm joined by Jacob Renica. Jacob why don't you introduce
• 0:26
  yourself. Hi thanks Julia thank you so much for having me. My name is Jacob Renica and I work
• 0:34
  kind of in the intersection of education and storytelling. My kind of educational background
• 0:41
  is bachelor's degree in ancient near eastern studies master in comparative, master's degree in
• 0:48
  comparative religion and a PhD in religion. So looking at different storytelling strategies
• 0:59
  of different religious texts ancient mythology and traditions and even contemporary texts and
• 1:06
  traditions and creating essentially kind of creating dialogues between different stories,
• 1:13
  different authors, different ideas including J.R.R. Tolkien. Yeah and actually today we're going to
• 1:19
  do a really deep dive into the films the Peter Jackson films of Lord of the Rings because we're
• 1:27
  we're now 20 years on or more from when they began filming when they the first film came out
• 1:37
  and anybody who follows this on the internet will see there's been quite a lot of chatter about
• 1:42
  the difference between the films and the books and we thought we would devote some quality time
• 1:49
  to looking at the choices that the script writers that's Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh and Philippa Boynes
• 1:57
  the choices they made when they were adapting and and to think through what that meant for those
• 2:03
  films and I suppose we're also thinking if future filmmakers are going to come along and have
• 2:08
  another go which they probably will at some point maybe as a mini series or whatever these days
• 2:15
  what you might do differently this time round and Jacob as well as those wonderful list of
• 2:22
  qualifications he gave he also qualifies as being a fan of Tolkien so it is also two fans talking
• 2:30
  to each other so first of all we're going to look of course at the fellowship of the ring I don't
• 2:37
  know about you Jacob but actually of the three films this is my favorite are you yeah it's tough
• 2:44
  it's tough to say yeah it's tough it's it's tough to say because it's really you know all one
• 2:49
  continuous story in my mind it's just one long you're one 11 and a half plus hour
• 2:55
  and narrative I love the beginning I so I love fellowship yeah yeah it's it is it is it is a lot
• 3:00
  more your pastoral you're kind of eased into the story um whereas if you kind of start with two
• 3:06
  towers or turn of the king then things are a lot darker and heavier so it is a nice kind of
• 3:11
  stroll into the world of middle earth so I do appreciate it for that I think I like it most because
• 3:16
  it feels as though it got the book best you know it really did live up to what I was hoping for
• 3:26
  um but anyway it's just a personal choice that's the one that if if anyone was saying which is
• 3:30
  my desert island one that's the one I'd take I'd also better point out that Jacob and I are both
• 3:37
  people who watch the extended edition so if we refer to scenes you haven't yet watched people
• 3:44
  that may be because you're watching the theatrical cuts but anyway so but let's go on so first of all
• 3:50
  let's look at before they even actually started filming anything what do you think about some of
• 3:58
  the changes that were made in fellowship of the ring particularly in terms of casting what strikes
• 4:05
  me most is the decision to make Frodo really young whereas in the novel he's in his 50s
• 4:13
  right yeah it's yeah that's it's interesting choice so I'm maybe kind of backing up a little bit my
• 4:20
  first exposure to uh Lord of the Rings was the film was the Peter Jackson cool that's interesting
• 4:26
  so you'll be a different way around to me yeah yes yeah exactly so yeah and then from different
• 4:30
  people that I've spoken with right so I'm and so I'm in in in in some senses you know not
• 4:35
  appear it's not pure enough I'm not a I'm not a pure blood uh no no I'm sorry I'm not
• 4:45
  intellectually pure blood I guess when it comes to Tolkien's world it's somewhat considered but
• 4:49
  it was it was my entry point so that was essentially I only think of Frodo that was my initial
• 4:58
  exposure to Frodo was Elijah Wood as you know a I don't know he's kind of in the film seems to be a
• 5:06
  early 20s or so kind of Frodo so it makes sense to me and at the time when I saw it when it came out
• 5:12
  I was in my very early 20s so I connected with him so it was easy for me to see myself in Frodo
• 5:20
  because of the similarity in age and I'm sure that was absolutely a marketing and storytelling
• 5:28
  strategy from the Hollywood end of things for which audiences you're trying to attract how do you
• 5:33
  make it as successful as possible to as broad of an audience as possible so having a main character
• 5:38
  whose age is is right in there you're going to pull in younger audiences as well as the older
• 5:43
  audiences where most of the cast is you know are more adult right that they're you know 40 30 40 50
• 5:51
  year old that's easy but how do you get a younger audience age down some of your characters so yeah
• 5:56
  I think it's it was a natural and I think an inevitable choice um and I'm I'm fine with it because it
• 6:03
  got me into Lord of the Rings I do appreciate the difference what so yeah so Julia what do you
• 6:07
  see is that so maybe some of the differences in his character by shifting his age in the film to
• 6:15
  yeah it does shift everything because if you re if you re run it and say put Martin Freeman in
• 6:22
  as Frodo instead because Martin Freeman was more age appropriate for the Hobbit it's still a really
• 6:31
  good casting um but in the book Frodo has a certain authority and maturity um that he doesn't
• 6:40
  in the films the films are a coming of age story I can get make arguments for why it's appropriate
• 6:48
  so I always think of Frodo in particular as very much a first world war recruit you know someone
• 6:55
  too young who's asked to sacrifice his life for everybody else so that element definitely works
• 7:01
  and there's also the argument that Hobbits at 50 are not as old as us lot at 50 because of the
• 7:09
  they've got a longer lifespan I don't think it's a mistake I can see exactly why it was done
• 7:14
  but it is an area where another go at the film it would give the next generation of filmmakers
• 7:23
  a different place to go if they wanted and that would be really interesting um it makes the Hobbits
• 7:29
  less at less idiotic less what idiot that's a bit too strong less um
• 7:35
  brand bugs just yeah it makes them a bit more sort of sorted if it's a slightly older
• 7:41
  group who are going I think yeah so if you see oh go ahead and that's going to say there is a little bit
• 7:48
  they do seem completely clueless in a way which I think is beyond the clueless they are
• 7:54
  little people in a big world but they play up the humor and the fact that they don't quite
• 7:59
  make the right calls at some time which isn't quite the same as the book yeah I was just thinking
• 8:06
  when you were saying you know casting somebody who's more age appropriate and how that would
• 8:10
  provide a different angle for filmmakers and storytellers in the you know film visually
• 8:17
  and in terms of kind of tropes you could have you know photos journey as midlife crisis right
• 8:24
  essentially that's a very different take on why you're going out on this journey and what you're
• 8:29
  having to prove to yourself right what you're trying to understand about life it's kind of a
• 8:34
  looking back you know kind of a retrospective where have I been what have I done with my life and
• 8:37
  what do I actually want to be now that I'm part way along and I'm now on the downhill slope
• 8:43
  what do I really want to be doing and so seeing the journey of the ring as kind of yeah
• 8:49
  him taking his life into his own hands instead of sitting complacent in the shire and then kind of
• 8:55
  being thrust in in one sense but then also choosing to enter into like the last half of his life
• 9:02
  into this this you know life changing and world changing adventure so yeah that's a completely
• 9:07
  different angle from the coming of age you know where it's just kind of this continual you know kind
• 9:12
  of upward trajectory to then coming up completely fully a well-rounded realized adult so now
• 9:18
  if you start there at the adult starting point rather than the you know somebody fighting the
• 9:23
  inevitable decline into you know mediocrity complacency uh so I that that's a completely there so
• 9:31
  I think that's fascinating and I would love I would love to see uh somebody have that take
• 9:35
  yeah the danger would be feel a bit too similar to I mean because that's really the hobbit is
• 9:39
  like that isn't it he's um yeah right um but I think looking at it from the positive side what
• 9:45
  that casting choice did do is it you Frodo is beautiful he's got the beautiful in a it's like
• 9:52
  angelic almost isn't he he's big blue eyes there's a beauty to him which I don't think
• 9:57
  there's quite a few jokes in the actual book about the fact that he's put on a bit of weight
• 10:02
  you know there's you need to get in shape um so it has a there is a difference there's just a
• 10:08
  difference feeling from Frodo the film version from Frodo the the book version but it does mean that
• 10:14
  there is a different I mean it's always good if there's new pleasures when you go to the book or
• 10:20
  go to the film I mean I think this gives us two bites of the cherry we can have one version of the
• 10:25
  story which is the film and another which is the the book version okay so um going into the actual
• 10:33
  um the way the script is written before we talk about the sort of structure of it but the the
• 10:41
  register and the diction do you think they captured in how they approached the script the right
• 10:47
  sort of talking-esque language you're a language expert yeah yeah that's a good question again
• 10:52
  because my first exposure to the to the world of talk talking in middle earth is the films so
• 10:59
  as I'm reading it it's hard for me to divorce the voice inside my head from the different actors
• 11:06
  who were portraying those those voices um but yeah it is it is really interesting right with the
• 11:14
  difference so I think one of the things that works well is having yeah different yeah diction for
• 11:21
  different areas of the shire right so oh yeah so you can see we have these different instead of
• 11:27
  just you know saying you know we're just going to have randomly chosen different kind of a
• 11:33
  hodgepodge of different you know British addictions used by the different different characters
• 11:41
  that you can that can actually be in your favor if you kind of consider different areas of the
• 11:47
  shire as you know being different kind of linguistic areas where they're they're staying in the same
• 11:54
  place they're not moving around and so of course they're going to develop a certain you know cadence
• 11:59
  and different different styles of speaking so in that sense I think it does I I didn't when I was
• 12:05
  first watching the films I didn't see that but now in retrospect I know that could have been a
• 12:11
  accident of casting that actually could upon reflection prove to be fortuitous in saying that the
• 12:21
  shire isn't a monolithic culture right that or the you know that these are people who have
• 12:28
  geographically interconnected but distinct areas so maybe I might be giving them too much credit
• 12:36
  for what they're doing but I'm happy to do so well if you watch the make you off which is one of
• 12:40
  the pleasures of the extended edition is I think Billy Boyd says it was almost like it is an
• 12:46
  accident of casting in that sense in that he's Scottish and so the tukes get to be Scottish even
• 12:51
  the name tukes feels that it should be could be you know sounds good and there was a slight
• 12:59
  problem about just it's not then it's not very big the shire so to have mildly different accents
• 13:05
  within a short space I suppose might be a bit funny really right there's a couple of in the hobbits
• 13:16
  obviously you've got Dominic Moynihan who's a Brit so he's accents fine and there are a couple
• 13:22
  of times when just a few tiny moments as a British person when Elijah Wood drops it is right at
• 13:28
  the beginning when he says to Gandalf you've only just arrived the accent isn't quite there and
• 13:33
  that's a shame because it jails yeah and then there's the Sam accent is kind of Mama's
• 13:40
  which is that it's fine it's fine yeah it's fine but the funniest of all the accents is of
• 13:48
  course Boromir because Sean Bean just does Sean Bean and Sean Bean is speaking his natural
• 13:56
  northern accent but nobody else seems to do so but the most delightful thing has happened since
• 14:05
  Andy Circus read the Lord of the Rings the entirety of it is that he has given everybody in
• 14:12
  Gondor a Sean Bean accent it's brilliant wow they should have everybody in Gondor should have
• 14:18
  gone that way so yeah I think on the whole saying it's a cast from many different English speaking
• 14:26
  places and also some of the actors are not first language English speakers I think they did pretty
• 14:35
  well and the actual rhythm of what they wrote and how it was some of the lines are really beautiful
• 14:44
  and it is very well I think they've got a good ear the script writers okay so in the Fellowship
• 14:51
  of the Ring what are your perfect moments yeah so in terms of like visual imagery right so in
• 15:00
  film right the visuals are what are our primary and the sound scape right behind it so you know
• 15:09
  Howard Shore's score is inseparable from the visuals right they're all kind of working together
• 15:16
  in concert to provide this kind of overwhelming soaring perceptive experience so for one of those
• 15:26
  I think for me is Erigorne's introduction right the first time you see him that image
• 15:37
  you know just like the illumination from the little bowl of the pipes are then illuminating his
• 15:41
  face in this shadow and you know the hood and in the the dark corner and just the sound of the
• 15:49
  fire right kind of like crackling to life and the light so the illuminating his face is just
• 15:56
  yeah striking haunting almost right and especially for somebody who didn't know who wasn't
• 16:04
  familiar with the story going in it was it provided there's ambiguity there right so I didn't know
• 16:11
  going in exactly what the character was going to do or what the character was going to be so
• 16:19
  that that was it was it was kind of awe inspiring with perhaps some ominous quality to it and I
• 16:28
  couldn't you know you didn't know exactly what to take because of course you're you're looking at
• 16:32
  this the camera is looking at it kind of from the hobbit's perspective right they don't know who
• 16:36
  this character is right so you're kind of seeing it as they see this shadowy figure in the corner
• 16:43
  who's just kind of creepily staring at them so I thought they they captured that well but you know
• 16:49
  on on rewatching and knowing this character I still think it's incredible character introduction
• 16:56
  for somebody who's coming from the darkness and then in a sense is going to be illuminated right
• 17:02
  who's going to step into the full light in this like dazzling brilliance so yeah it's great how about
• 17:09
  yeah yeah that is that's my that's my moment of all the films and it's actually based on a line in
• 17:14
  the book about the embers catching his eyes in the when he lights his pipe so Tolkien provided the
• 17:20
  camera angle on that one so as you pick that one I think for me the ballrog sequence is one of those
• 17:28
  where the acting the visuals the tension the drama the music everything is like a perfect
• 17:36
  set where both the book and the film are meshed and it just feels really really good
• 17:44
  yeah yeah that's it's striking yeah it's it's striking do you have any what before we talk about
• 17:49
  the bigger structure things are there any moments for you which are fails no I have I have a I have
• 17:55
  a few more perfect moments okay you'll still allow me yeah yeah so again with with with
• 18:02
  Eric Warren I think they do so much and I can't like Vigo Mortensen is just you know impeccable I
• 18:09
  can't imagine anyone else there yeah exactly which is right which yes I which could have been
• 18:19
  divine intervention I don't know but he so you just how the and one of the things that I think
• 18:26
  yeah then we talk about you know because some maybe some of the changes in characters a little bit
• 18:30
  further down in our conversation but you know when when he's when Eric Warren is singing part of
• 18:37
  the lay of luthian right about barren and luthian just kind of you know kind of like humming singing
• 18:41
  that softly as he's taking the hobbits right they're stopping and Frodo asks him you know what do
• 18:47
  you what are you singing and you know he's he's explaining the story and then you know Frodo asks
• 18:53
  him you know what happens to this you know it's this elf maiden who gives herself you know to this
• 18:58
  human man and he just says you know she she died and just like that moment kind of capturing the
• 19:05
  melancholy of aragorn as a character and kind of caught between different worlds himself
• 19:13
  I think that sets the tone really well and builds his his character in in a in a very
• 19:20
  uh not just visual but like auditory way and you just kind of get a sense of feel for it so
• 19:26
  anyway that's that was something I just I've seen just to put that in brackets I think that's a
• 19:33
  wasn't in the theatrical cut I don't think oh okay yeah yeah yeah yeah I think you're right
• 19:38
  I mean I I've there's a long time since I saw the original version yeah it's been so long for me too
• 19:43
  um okay so is there anything where you think it doesn't quite work
• 19:53
  yeah we'll get hate mail probably for this but I know I know let's be critics yeah yeah yeah
• 19:59
  it's from the script point of view as opposed to that sort of primarily yeah yeah yeah yeah so
• 20:05
  something that's difficult is the wizard's duel um between uh Gandalf and Saruman um so one of the
• 20:16
  things so the things that does does well and doesn't do right so that's kind of that's not
• 20:20
  something that you're really seeing depicted in the books is the like the full on you know a
• 20:25
  wizard's duels is different right from you could have gone well you you know it's coming out
• 20:31
  at the same time that uh Harry Potter films right so they're in generally the same time so different
• 20:38
  approaches to magic right depicting magic I think they're too interesting kind of foils right so
• 20:43
  um Harry Potter the world of Harry Potter magic is a tool that people use right to accomplish certain
• 20:51
  ends and so a wizard's duel is going to be this kind of gun fight battle with magic being used uh
• 20:58
  as as as a weapon and the kind of the precise weapon or maybe even just throwing everything you know
• 21:05
  throw it all against the wall and see what sticks it hope that you'll find some one of the spells
• 21:11
  that you've memorized by that point has can can do some sort of damage um but with Tolkien his magic
• 21:18
  here is kind of baked into the world uh in the sense that magic to me it seems that magic is more
• 21:25
  of a tone than it is a tool for to for Tolkien so it kind of pervades the world itself um and so
• 21:34
  I don't know you there isn't kind of a clear description of how magic works in Tolkien's world
• 21:43
  it's just kind of the supernatural force almost kind of like more star wars
• 21:48
  ask in this something that's kind of pervasive and there's some way to tap into it but
• 21:54
  that's not Tolkien isn't concerned about explaining the magic he's just taking that as a given that
• 21:58
  the magic magic exists magic is uh and that's you know embodied in the elves and just like their
• 22:05
  demeanor so like the elves are magic kind of just walking in that embodiment of Tolkien's view of
• 22:10
  magic and so this wizard's duel kind of come back to that that you know it's seen is it's not a
• 22:16
  shoot-em-up gunfight um like you do have in Harry Potter with wands as essentially your projectile
• 22:25
  weapons but there's something the you know there's there's a force that they're dealing with they're
• 22:30
  kind of almost fighting with ideas and ideals uh which I find really fascinating um but how do you
• 22:39
  depict that visually especially with two actors who are not you know I don't think either of them
• 22:47
  would have described themselves as action heroes or action actors um so you're you're left kind of
• 22:55
  and so I think they instead of showing you projectile CGI braze beams of light shooting at each
• 23:02
  other you have kind of you know they're they're they're using force that you're kind of left to
• 23:07
  the imagination to like what exactly is happening there so and so I think conceptually that that works
• 23:14
  I like that approach but visually it is difficult when you have older actors uh and they're trying
• 23:20
  to depict some sort of fierce kind of physical competition uh it's hard it's hard to capture that
• 23:27
  so there's some moments that are difficult to take seriously especially in light of contemporary
• 23:34
  filmmaking uh and action sequences so that's one it's a it's a mixed it's a mixed bag for me that
• 23:42
  sometimes it's easy to take me out of the film experience I can see I can see why it was done
• 23:51
  because it's trying to what is it's action uh speed things up you know but it's also a sense of
• 23:59
  I think in the book it's it's really much um the doors are closed and you've got to stay here
• 24:05
  tough there isn't uh he's constrained but not in the way that it happens in sort of a physical
• 24:13
  battle it's more the spider speak you know the web closes that's more the feel yeah I hadn't thought
• 24:22
  about that really um you're right it is quite odd to have magic used in more of a replacement for
• 24:28
  a punch-up um there are a couple of times in the book where of course Gandalf does use magic in a
• 24:36
  more showy showy way you know like lighting lighting a flame but he always he always says it costs
• 24:43
  and he doesn't want to do it he's very reluctant so there's a bit of a step outside yeah oh it's
• 24:51
  interesting I have to think about that I'm not sure I hadn't really he hadn't bothered me before
• 24:56
  but now I'm going to think about it um for me the one of the uh scenes that doesn't work it's in the
• 25:05
  extended edition um and it did get cut from the main thing is as the approach moria um Gandalf
• 25:14
  takes Frodo aside and basically says look out um Boram is going to try and take the ring and it's
• 25:19
  one of the scenes where there's bit too much bit too much exposition and I think that's probably
• 25:25
  why it was cut from the theatrical edition um we know we get it um and so it's also just feels a
• 25:34
  bit odd bit jarring that that scene um so I pleat I think that was one of the ones that perhaps
• 25:40
  didn't need to go back in the extended edition and there's another scene which jars um for me which
• 25:48
  is the one when um they're on weather top and arrogant says I'm going to go off and look for
• 25:57
  black riders basically and Frodo drops off to sleep and the other three hobbit start cooking
• 26:03
  uh and Frodo wakes up and says what are you doing yeah that is not in the book they're a bit more
• 26:09
  they know that they're being pursued they know that they're in danger in fact I think um Frodo
• 26:15
  and maria is or is it fit in anyway Frodo and they're with arrogant searching and then see
• 26:25
  the black riders moving about and fear they've been spotted it's much more they're much more
• 26:30
  sensible much more aware that it's a life and death situation and that's one of the changes to make
• 26:35
  the the hobbits a bit more um I was saying they they sometimes come across as being a little bit idiotic
• 26:43
  that's one of the moments um and you can see that maybe that's in order to show the distance they
• 26:50
  go because they're they they're the guys frying up sausages in the face of danger and then they
• 26:56
  become the heroes and the the you know heroes of the battle it's a journey thing but me I just think
• 27:03
  really I think um I'm not going to listen I have problems with that scene okay so on the whole
• 27:11
  uh not that many problems with many scenes so that's too bad the only there's some visually there's
• 27:16
  some I mean with CGI they're working as difficult with casting different actors who size-wise
• 27:23
  are in relation to each other different so I think they did a great job with what they had to do
• 27:28
  right so you know John Reese Davies is a dwarf who is not my my my exposure and you know first love
• 27:37
  for him was in the Indiana Jones film he's right so it's on him yeah he is right he's and so
• 27:42
  let's have them I think right having having to depict these people who are normally tall and you
• 27:48
  know in the hobbits right when they're in scenes with you know humans uh and wizards and elves and
• 27:55
  and sometimes you know just because of the constraints of computer generated imagery it's super
• 28:03
  you know imposing different people into different scenes sometimes it does seem a little a
• 28:08
  a little off you can you can tell that there is one actually there together yeah after the council
• 28:13
  of everyone there's one moment where it's that yeah that bit I think probably the CGI was just
• 28:18
  attached behind there is a feel of it's like two people sort of two two layers of people anyway
• 28:23
  I mean tiny mind but that's we're being finicky aren't we here if that's the worst point then yeah
• 28:31
  oh yeah I mean it needs our favorite films we should we should say that okay so let's talk
• 28:38
  about the sort of the larger script decisions now um and there's the issue of pacing and cuts
• 28:46
  so let's start with where it starts for those of you I'm sure you all know if you read the books
• 28:52
  it starts with a long prologue concerning hobbits um by Tolkien which you don't actually have to read
• 28:59
  you can skip to the first chapter and then it goes into a quite a slow build up to the party
• 29:07
  and in the film you of course get the montage of the history of the ring with um
• 29:15
  colladriel cakeblancet with the voiceover explaining quite a long setup actually in terms of film time
• 29:24
  so what do you think of that particular script decision to um not start in the show in fact but you
• 29:30
  start the prologue with the history of the ring good choice bad choice um I think from a
• 29:39
  a filmmaking a filmmaking perspective and keeping in mind the audience that it was a good
• 29:45
  it I think it was a good decision to appeal to as large of an audience as as possible right so you're
• 29:50
  setting the table you're kind of building the frame that the story is going to sit inside um you
• 29:56
  know of course that's so there's different audiences uh are interested in different parts of the
• 30:03
  story and so like in the books one of the within rearrangement of of scenes and things right so pulling
• 30:08
  that section from the council of l-ron so that's when the hobbits first learn of this so uh we're in
• 30:16
  so in in the books we're more in the from the perspective of the hobbits as they're so we're
• 30:21
  learning things as the hobbits are learning them as they go along right so we're just as much
• 30:26
  in the dark as they are and these things are a revelation so we know why they're making the
• 30:30
  decisions that they're making they make sense whereas if you put it against that larger backdrop
• 30:36
  from the outset then you're not going on the same journey that they are you're kind of in the
• 30:43
  third person kind of omniscient narrator setting you have the information before the characters
• 30:49
  have it so you're not going to empathize as deeply with the characters um because you're judging
• 30:56
  them based on the bigger picture and why they're doing something why they're not doing something
• 31:01
  and you can judge them in a different way than you could if you were actually learning the
• 31:04
  information at the same time so i understand from from a filmmaking perspective it makes complete
• 31:09
  sense i think it's a good i think it's a good decision to get the audience up to speed um because
• 31:14
  it's a different type of film than like a discovery film so um for instance you know just a
• 31:19
  a recent one uh that is kind of like discovering as you go uh uh you know Christopher Nolan uh
• 31:27
  films uh tenet i don't know if you saw no tenet okay so his a lot of his are kind of like puzzle box
• 31:33
  stories right so you're never given an explanation that that that from the outset
• 31:38
  part of the joy um of those movies is kind of working through the labyrinth that he's creating
• 31:44
  and discovering what is actually happening and then it kind of becomes self-referential and
• 31:49
  you're having to then go back and rewatch the films having this you know revelation of information
• 31:54
  and seeing it again so that's that's one type of you know cinematic um audience experiences
• 32:00
  learning about these ideas as you go learning facts learning about characters other people
• 32:07
  as the main character is or setting everything up or a lot of it you know giving a big you know
• 32:12
  large amount of background at the beginning so i think uh i think with the type of film the
• 32:16
  the sort of audience that they needed to appeal to putting that sort of prologue a historical
• 32:20
  prologue uh works well there yeah i agree i think yeah i think it became a very popular
• 32:30
  tool that's been copied in other films since so it may be that um in a way we've almost become
• 32:39
  too used to it but actually i think what it did do is it it it kept the audience so it promises
• 32:46
  this is actually big battles this is actually big bad is this is great beauty um whereas some people
• 32:54
  I know have been defeated by the book because it does take a while it feels quite childish because
• 32:59
  it was started life as a bit more in the theme of the hobby it took Tolkien a while to make his
• 33:05
  mind up that he was actually making an adult book and so there is an elements of the more childish
• 33:13
  childlike world which if you don't hang in there you could mistake for being the tone of the film so
• 33:20
  i think it was a very good choice and we don't we're not expecting the book and the film to be
• 33:25
  the same product it's one of the ones where yeah good decision i think okay what about um the the
• 33:34
  cuts that were made in order to i think they were made really for pacing and and just so that you
• 33:41
  don't you know you've got to get in uh in and out of a theater within a reasonable length of time
• 33:46
  so the major cuts are of course um tom bomberdale and the barrow downs which is like a connected
• 33:56
  set of incidents it happens in the old forest between leaving the shire and arriving at brie and
• 34:04
  the prancing pony um there's also what else is cut there's um quite a there's quite a lot in the
• 34:15
  shire that's cut things like the visit to farmer maggot is cut um there's quite a lot of the
• 34:23
  journey is only just touched on um i bet they did quite well with the journey actually but there's
• 34:29
  a whole series of events before they get to moria um which they they don't do in full that they
• 34:39
  just sort of they cut they they touch on the crebine and they climb up the mountain but that
• 34:44
  sequence is more extended um but i think probably in terms of people listening to this the big ones
• 34:50
  are missing out on the uh yeah missing out on tom bomberdale what's your view on that
• 34:59
  yeah so i yeah again having seen the films first i had no idea that tom bomberdale was i think so
• 35:04
  when i first read the book i was very surprised on who who was who was this character who just
• 35:11
  keeps his rhyming uh and kind of bouncing along uh and the yeah so i i mean i i think it's
• 35:21
  i think it works well works fine for creating a story for a film that if there were things
• 35:25
  that you needed to cut i suppose that's something that you could do without if the
• 35:31
  main thrust of the story is following Frodo and his journey and the you know kind of the
• 35:37
  the the fellowship itself um then tom bomberdale doesn't really play a a huge role in their individual
• 35:45
  transformation so if you're we're more concerned about the character transformation and character arcs
• 35:50
  sure it absolutely plays a part in that development but cinematically yeah that the your
• 35:57
  i i think i think it was a wise a wise choice to kind of condense things there so yeah i was i was
• 36:04
  less sad to see tom bomberdale go than the barrow down bits yeah and you can't the thing is you can't
• 36:10
  do one without the other but the thing that's particularly good about the barrow down is it's where
• 36:14
  they get their swords from they don't you know a carregal isn't just by chance carrying a load of
• 36:19
  swords around right um and also it links to the past so there's an element of the the world building
• 36:28
  this is and you know in the day where somebody does a mini series Lord of the Rings you know in the
• 36:33
  future this is i'd really be interested to see what someone does with this on a larger canvas where
• 36:39
  they don't have to worry about packing it all into three hours or two hours um because i think it
• 36:45
  particularly the barrow down we really spooky the mist and the confusion uh that would be great
• 36:53
  i'd love to see that yeah yeah yeah absolutely and i think yeah so Peter and what i would love to see
• 36:58
  Peter Jackson take on that because he started you know his career in film was beginning with kind
• 37:05
  of horror films so i bet he would be you know uniquely qualified to kind of catch that because some
• 37:12
  of the some of the scenes that he does the scary scenes are very scary uh they're they are terror
• 37:20
  scenes right it's horror yeah so i'd love to see that too but i i think i agree with you that it's
• 37:27
  you know it's it's it's the thing that has to go um and it and he's discussed briefly at
• 37:35
  the council of Elrond and they basically say if you give him the ring he'll forget about it he's
• 37:40
  not a safe pair of hands he has no power over him but he has no power over the ring so he is
• 37:45
  completely separate um from it's from its fate and it is about the ring this this story so
• 37:52
  yeah i think that's a good choice um another thing that's missing is the songs and the poems
• 37:59
  so they do get some of them in but not as many as Tolkien has are you happy with that um
• 38:07
  um yeah i mean the the the poems are delightful and moving uh in in the in the books and so
• 38:19
  you know because like you said you know that there's a different experiences the film experiences
• 38:23
  different so in terms of you know some of the extended poetry that you have there that is really
• 38:30
  melancholy that captures the you know kind of pervasive sadness uh that exists in this world
• 38:38
  uh of middle earth that's going to be hard to keep you know the attention if you're wanting to attract
• 38:43
  a broad audience uh you know your younger audience is not going to want to sit through uh you know
• 38:50
  recitation of uh you know eldish poetry they're going to that's there yeah and then it's not going to
• 38:57
  come at first it gets wheeled out right right so younger audiences yeah the the the cow jumping over
• 39:03
  the moon uh the extended point there there's a line do you remember they so great uh i love i love
• 39:10
  i love that just what what Tolkien does with you know with it with a traditional kind of you know
• 39:15
  you know english uh rhyme and just kind of spinning it out and doing some really fun things with it
• 39:21
  yeah so it would be a different film i mean if if you're looking at again if you're recasting
• 39:25
  Frodo as in his fifties then i think you could include if your target audiences kind of shifted
• 39:33
  dem- you're the demographic is shifted to uh firm adult uh audience then including some of those
• 39:39
  the those poems uh i think would would be a delight to include and i think you know compelling
• 39:46
  for an older audience yeah yeah because the reason he puts on the ring in the book in um
• 39:52
  or granting ponies because he's very awkwardly singing a song then he gets a bit carried away
• 39:58
  and and so it's actually funny but terrible it's it's got one of those um is a particular tone
• 40:05
  that Tolkien has uh which i would be lovely to see that i because in i can obviously that
• 40:12
  these choices are made because they've got to make cuts somewhere but the way that the reason he
• 40:18
  puts on the ring is sort of Pippin's fault um in in in the novel it's Pippin starts to say something
• 40:26
  Frodo decides he's got to add a distraction gets up on the table and starts singing which is
• 40:30
  like the worst thing he could do i think it's hilarious anyway um so there is yeah uh just pointing
• 40:38
  out some areas which a future script writer can have a go at um so coming towards so much we could
• 40:46
  discuss but coming towards the end of what we're going to talk about on the first ship of the ring
• 40:51
  i think one of the biggest things there were two things really i wanted to talk about one is
• 40:56
  the swapping of characters um and the other is how how places are imagined and personified
• 41:06
  so on the swapping of the characters there's a big change which is in the book um after Frodo is injured
• 41:13
  the elf who comes to help is in fact an uh a man called oh i don't know a man an elf uh
• 41:21
  called Glorfindel who's a very uh sort of from the old lineage who's a friend of arrogant
• 41:27
  and in the film memorably you get our win coming so Jacob have that what can think of that
• 41:37
  change i think it's yeah and again from the uh so that wasn't something initially seeing it first
• 41:43
  that i noticed until i read the book and i saw that it was a different there's a different person so
• 41:47
  from the the story that the filmmakers wanted to tell her what they wanted to emphasize
• 41:52
  it makes it makes complete sense to me because you wanted to have our win as a larger part in the story
• 42:02
  of the film than she was uh in the book and so Glorfindel doesn't show up later in the books right so it's
• 42:11
  kind of we're further later in two towers and uh and return to the king um so if you have a character
• 42:18
  so one of the tip for screenwriting is if you can combine two characters do because you're
• 42:26
  able to have that one character do more um and carry more narrative weight um rather than splitting it
• 42:34
  up and having just kind of proliferating uh characters because in filmmaking it's an art of
• 42:41
  kind of simplification right minimalism maybe not simplification but minimalism right you're
• 42:46
  trying to get the the the greatest impact out of the fewest amount of lines out of character choices
• 42:53
  out of scenes you're trying to get as much as possible into each scene um so it so it makes sense
• 42:58
  from um from a filmmaking perspective uh to combine those characters and let our win kind of save
• 43:04
  the day there because that's our introduction to her is as this you know active uh character um so
• 43:13
  i think you're able to maybe have patience later uh with her as she's kind of mostly in the rest
• 43:22
  the other two films is mostly just kind of sitting around and pining and is sad for most of the
• 43:28
  rest of the film yeah at least gives her a well a better rounded character we know that she can
• 43:34
  write a horse really fast and she can be heroic she's just choosing to sit around and read
• 43:39
  elf poetry and pine over arrogant and and kind of wrestle with that so i so i like that for what
• 43:47
  it does for her as a character and streamlining the story what do you think i think it's an improvement
• 43:53
  so i think one of the problems that lord the rings is the passiveness of well with the honourable
• 43:58
  exception of erwin who will get to a non um yeah there's not much roles and you are as a modern
• 44:06
  filmmaker going going to be saying where can we leave her open up the chinks and this is a really
• 44:12
  good one yeah i they did actually think and making her active all the way through but they rode back
• 44:18
  from that um in this i think they even filmed her being um helm steep helm steep yeah in our yeah
• 44:25
  armor i think there are photos of her uh in armor and then i think due to in part due to fan
• 44:33
  kind of uh pushback on that they'll be real back a bit so it would definitely be for those
• 44:39
  of you who are about to write the next version of this i think it's definitely the the kind of
• 44:44
  thing to do more of without without breaking the spirit of the of the book i noticed it on the new
• 44:52
  amazon series they've also made um collateral the young collateral into very much a warrior
• 44:57
  even that teams the trailer she's you know very badass um right right but i think that 20 years on
• 45:07
  they wouldn't have been forced to row back from putting her in a more active role so yeah
• 45:12
  so the final thing i wanted to ask you about Jacob is the the places because i think that in many
• 45:19
  ways those films are defined by what each place feels like so you go from the shower which is green
• 45:26
  and rural like countryside where i live um to um the muddy road then to uh the kind of
• 45:39
  alpine feel of it's a sort of italian eight stroke or alpine feel of rivendale
• 45:49
  then you got the mountain you got more here with the dark mines then you've got
• 45:54
  uh lotlorian with its silvery sort of tones and blues then you've got the great river and
• 46:03
  my favorite of all the argonath the statues of the argonath what did you feel about that version
• 46:10
  of how they realize the book well um uh i was amazed that it was all shot in the same
• 46:20
  physical place right so who zealand has all of those different uh different climbs right those
• 46:27
  different uh different types of settings um so i'm eager to make a pilgrimage there
• 46:33
  at some at some point um so it's yeah i thought yeah again visually they did an incredible job
• 46:41
  differentiating the different areas again with not just the terrain but also yeah the kind of color
• 46:46
  palette for each of those right so um yeah uh you know lotlorian uh looks different visually
• 46:55
  than rivendale that's right that's what i like i don't likelorian i think it's too dark it's too
• 47:03
  too twilight yeah in the book described as silver and gold right right i would have loved
• 47:10
  you know the elinol flowers i think they need to turn the lights on
• 47:15
  exactly yeah and i can see why they did that right so they're compressing they're you know
• 47:19
  compressing time right so if you you know you you think as an audience member essentially you're
• 47:26
  you think that maybe this took a few days maybe maybe a week uh but it was a pretty fast week
• 47:33
  whereas yeah in the book these things are spanning over and right when when they stay in uh
• 47:38
  right in uh forced lorian uh and lothlorian they're you know the moon is different from you know
• 47:46
  when they when they go into uh the forest then when they come out of it there's some
• 47:52
  immeasurable amount of time has passed in there um so i think you know as a film they're trying
• 47:58
  to say that they're only basically staying they're sleeping over at having a sleepover
• 48:04
  in lothlorian and then they're uh moving on so it is dark i would have loved to have seen
• 48:09
  in the books that's one of the things that Tolkien does best um is in his nature writing right his
• 48:15
  description of the natural world is my most recent reread which i just finished of the month ago or so
• 48:23
  just that was one of the things that stood out to me um this time uh was just his his prose
• 48:29
  specifically about nature and so how he describes that forest and you're right like the silver
• 48:35
  and golds and the you know just the leaves and i can't know i i can't even paraphrase it because
• 48:41
  it's sacrilege to do so like how how beautiful the phrases um that he uses it how clearly
• 48:48
  perceptive Tolkien as a person was to the surrounding world and nature uh in general so he in a sense
• 48:56
  is able to kind of reenchant the ordinary world um through his description of these you know
• 49:04
  elvish forests uh that definitely had uh you know an impact on me and my perception as i was
• 49:11
  listening uh to this to his words as i'm out in nature you know on on a on a walk with with my little
• 49:20
  almost two-year-old child i'm looking at the world differently right and i'm seeing it as magic
• 49:26
  and so yeah i think you definitely lost that in the film setting it at night you can't see the beauty
• 49:34
  there's kind of an evening kind of twilight beauty of sorts but yeah that was symbolic isn't it i
• 49:39
  mean i can see why they chose to do that but it was just the place where sometimes they picked a
• 49:45
  landscape where it was better than my imagination but my imagination of lorian is better than what
• 49:51
  they did he felt too much like being in a studio there wasn't enough fresh air um so it's again
• 49:58
  we're thinking about possibilities for future adaptations that's one place where i think you could
• 50:03
  really have a go at doing a different take uh and then surprise the soul and enchant the soul yeah
• 50:11
  and differentiate that from Rivendell because they're different right they're different kind of
• 50:15
  elvish cultures in a sense so i thought the Rivendell the set design was that was good phenomenal
• 50:23
  that's really good um but doing that same sort of treatment in right our other forest uh in our
• 50:30
  other kind of elvish miniature kingdom but yeah kind of develop that and give it the same sort of care
• 50:38
  that you did to Rivendell i would like to see that there's probably people shouting at us you know
• 50:42
  when they're listening to that that's my favorite scene anyway it's just personal place these these
• 50:47
  are these beautiful it's beautiful if i want a nighttime forest yeah great love it i would go there
• 50:52
  i would stay the night there i would stay more nights there than one yeah on the cushions under the tree
• 50:58
  right yeah i'm not up with tree that looks a bit i'm a bit worried about rolling off the edge so um
• 51:04
  Jacob we've done a quite a deep dive into fellowship with the ring and i always finished the
• 51:10
  podcast by asking my guest where in all the world is the best place for something and as we've
• 51:15
  talked about John Reese Davis and the dwarves um where do you think in all the all the fancy worlds
• 51:22
  is the best place to be a dwarf um we're talking here obviously of the folkloric um dwarf characters
• 51:30
  like Gimli and you know his um brethren elsewhere yeah i would say i would have to say
• 51:38
  Narnia um in part because there's such a variety of characters and creatures there that are active
• 51:47
  that i i feel like dwarves don't seem as much as outsiders as they do say in lord of the rings right so
• 51:55
  for when in a world that only has where kind of men and elves that are kind of the same stature
• 52:03
  are kind of given the focus um that you know hobbits and dwarves are kind of seen as lesser right
• 52:10
  they're kind of played up for comedic relief um whereas in narnia you have if you have talking
• 52:16
  animals right uh a person who's a different shape in size than a you know homo erectus like
• 52:24
  isn't that that's that doesn't that doesn't seem out of place uh it just seems like another character
• 52:30
  alongside this this beautiful variety of creatures and characters with different personalities
• 52:36
  and rich cultures so i think if if i was a dwarf um i think i would uh enjoy the world more and
• 52:43
  probably feel feel more at home and be happier in narnia than even similar possible yeah i i actually
• 52:52
  totally agree i i've been struggling to think of somewhere better i don't i think of lots of
• 52:58
  faces i wouldn't like to be one there's actually many more of those i don't want to work down a
• 53:04
  mine singing hi ho hi ho that's really off that's really off the agenda um and as you say very often
• 53:13
  wolves aren't given the respects just it's just a size difference get over it right and i think
• 53:18
  narnia does get over it so i agree with you on that thank you so much Jacob we'll be back to talk
• 53:23
  about the two towers next but thank you very much for listening thank you for having me
• 53:29
  thanks for listening to myth makers podcast brought to you by the oxford center for fantasy
• 53:39
  visit oxfordcenterforfantasy.org to join in the fun find out about our online courses in person
• 53:46
  stays in oxford plus visit our shop for great gifts tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find
• 53:54
  your favorite podcasts worldwide