Latest / Career Relaunch® / Finding Where You Belong with Dorna Lakayan- CR103

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Finding Where You Belong with Dorna Lakayan- CR103 · Career Relaunch®

0:00
Dorna: It's not also easy to come from one
0:03
Dorna: country to another and to start over, to
0:06
Dorna: have no friends, have no family, have no
0:08
Dorna: support, have nothing to lean on, to start
0:13
Dorna: over. It's really challenging.
0:16
Joseph Liu: Welcome to the career relaunch podcast focused on
0:18
Joseph Liu: helping you successfully reinvent your career. My name
0:21
Joseph Liu: is Joseph Liu, and I'm here to help
0:23
Joseph Liu: you gain the clarity, confidence, and courage to
0:25
Joseph Liu: overcome the challenges of making changes to your
0:27
Joseph Liu: career so you can do more meaningful work
0:29
Joseph Liu: and enjoy your professional life. In each episode,
0:32
Joseph Liu: I feature people who have stepped off the
0:34
Joseph Liu: beaten path to reinvent their careers. We talk
0:36
Joseph Liu: through their unique personal journeys, the challenges they
0:38
Joseph Liu: overcame, and the lessons they learned along the
0:40
Joseph Liu: way to help you understand what it takes
0:42
Joseph Liu: to relaunch your own career. Today, my guest
0:45
Joseph Liu: will share her story of leaving Iran to
0:47
Joseph Liu: make multiple international moves as her career in
0:50
Joseph Liu: architecture and design evolved. We'll discuss the challenges
0:53
Joseph Liu: of penetrating new professional circles and the emotional
0:56
Joseph Liu: dynamics of running your own business. Afterwards, during
0:59
Joseph Liu: today's mental fuel, I'll share my thoughts on
1:02
Joseph Liu: what it takes to fit into a new
1:03
Joseph Liu: environment. Have you ever felt a bit out
1:12
Joseph Liu: of place in a job? Have you ever
1:14
Joseph Liu: been more like an outsider than an insider
1:16
Joseph Liu: at your company? Have you ever struggled to
1:18
Joseph Liu: fit in at your workplace? Today, I'm speaking
1:21
Joseph Liu: with Dorna Lakayan, an interior architect and furniture
1:25
Joseph Liu: designer with Persian and Norwegian roots who's made
1:27
Joseph Liu: a bit of a habit adapting to new
1:28
Joseph Liu: environments across her multiple international moves. She now
1:32
Joseph Liu: runs her own independent architectural firm, Studio La
1:35
Joseph Liu: Cayan, where she transforms houses into dream homes
1:38
Joseph Liu: and brand identities into memorable venues worldwide. Her
1:41
Joseph Liu: approach focuses on inhabitants being at the centerpiece
1:44
Joseph Liu: of a space, complementing habits and lifestyles through
1:47
Joseph Liu: mindful space design and visual harmony. Her philosophy
1:51
Joseph Liu: and approach center on the idea that a
1:53
Joseph Liu: good space creates space to feel, to think,
1:56
Joseph Liu: and to be you. Now, if her name
1:58
Joseph Liu: and voice sound familiar, it's because I featured
2:00
Joseph Liu: a voicemail she left for me in Episode
2:02
Joseph Liu: one zero two, where she shared a glimpse
2:04
Joseph Liu: into her own challenges around moving countries, changing
2:07
Joseph Liu: environments, and starting her own architectural firm. Her
2:10
Joseph Liu: honesty and transparency really struck me, and I
2:13
Joseph Liu: later reached out to her to see if
2:14
Joseph Liu: she might be willing to share more details
2:16
Joseph Liu: about her career journey on the show. If
2:18
Joseph Liu: you're someone out there who's ever had to
2:20
Joseph Liu: adapt to a new environment or deal with
2:22
Joseph Liu: the challenges of feeling like an outsider, I
2:24
Joseph Liu: think you'll find her perspectives to be very
2:26
Joseph Liu: relatable and helpful. You can get all the
2:29
Joseph Liu: show notes from today's conversation at career relaunch
2:31
Joseph Liu: dot net slash one zero three. Dorna spoke
2:34
Joseph Liu: with me from Amsterdam in the Netherlands. Hello,
2:39
Joseph Liu: Dorna. Welcome to the Career Relaunch podcast. It
2:42
Joseph Liu: is great to have you on the show.
2:44
Dorna: Hello, Josef. It's very nice to be here.
2:46
Dorna: Thank you for having me.
2:48
Joseph Liu: I am looking forward to talking with you
2:51
Joseph Liu: about a lot of your geographical transitions and
2:54
Joseph Liu: the ups and downs you've experienced along the
2:57
Joseph Liu: way, your recent decision to start your own
2:59
Joseph Liu: architectural firm. But I'd love to start by
3:01
Joseph Liu: just first getting a snapshot of your life
3:04
Joseph Liu: right now. What are you focused on both
3:07
Joseph Liu: personally and also professionally at this moment?
3:11
Dorna: For me, they are not really separated from
3:13
Dorna: each other. Maybe being a designer, I have
3:16
Dorna: always lived, eat, I don't know, breathe design
3:20
Dorna: because all of an attitude. So my life
3:22
Dorna: is designed and it's really intersectionally going forward
3:27
Dorna: together. But my focus these days mostly is,
3:30
Dorna: of course, establishing my life here in the
3:33
Dorna: new country, new city, finding new friends, new
3:38
Dorna: colleagues, I don't know, new collaborators, figuring out
3:42
Dorna: what's next.
3:43
Joseph Liu: You haven't always lived in Amsterdam. So let's
3:46
Joseph Liu: start at the beginning and move forward from
3:49
Joseph Liu: there. I'd like to actually go all the
3:50
Joseph Liu: way back to your childhood when you grew
3:53
Joseph Liu: up in Iran, which is where you're from.
3:56
Joseph Liu: What do you remember about your life in
3:58
Joseph Liu: Iran as a child?
4:01
Dorna: I think after coming to Europe, my biggest
4:04
Dorna: memory of Iran relates to the sun. So
4:08
Dorna: it was a very sunny part of the
4:12
Dorna: world, especially when you are a child. Maybe
4:14
Dorna: you are more curious, so you see more,
4:16
Dorna: you observe more. So I remember a lot
4:19
Dorna: of patterns, a lot of colors. We live
4:22
Dorna: in a part of the world that sun
4:24
Dorna: is available. So a lot of architecture and
4:27
Dorna: a lot of things are built around it.
4:30
Dorna: The shadows, the concept of actually shadowed spaces
4:35
Dorna: and sunny spaces, or light spaces. So there's
4:40
Dorna: a lot of things that, about the architecture.
4:43
Dorna: Of course, I remember, but then I come
4:45
Dorna: from a family that architecture was important or
4:49
Dorna: art was important. So maybe that's why most
4:52
Dorna: of my memories are around it as well.
4:54
Dorna: Or maybe I was just curious as a
4:56
Dorna: child to become an architect. I don't know.
4:59
Dorna: So
5:00
Joseph Liu: Were your parents also involved in some sort
5:03
Joseph Liu: of design or architectural industry?
5:06
Dorna: My dad is, civil engineer, and my mom
5:11
Dorna: is an artist or used to be. It
5:13
Dorna: was never her profession, but she was just
5:16
Dorna: into art. So she would paint and make
5:20
Dorna: a lot of things. As a child, I
5:22
Dorna: was a very, like, preserved child. I wouldn't
5:25
Dorna: show so much of my emotions. And to
5:28
Dorna: help me to show more as a child,
5:30
Dorna: my mom had taught me that I can
5:32
Dorna: create things and show things with creating stuff.
5:37
Dorna: So I had ended up, I don't know,
5:38
Dorna: suing and knitting and all of those little
5:43
Dorna: things that a child can do, painting and
5:45
Dorna: writing cards and notes and things like that.
5:48
Dorna: So that was my daily routine of creating.
5:52
Joseph Liu: In most cases on this show, we would
5:54
Joseph Liu: typically feature somebody who has a certain professional
5:58
Joseph Liu: background and then they switch sectors and they
6:00
Joseph Liu: maybe switch roles within a company. Now, in
6:02
Joseph Liu: your case, you from a very early start
6:05
Joseph Liu: wanted to become an architect. At what point
6:07
Joseph Liu: did you realize that and how did you
6:09
Joseph Liu: know you wanted to become an architect?
6:11
Dorna: Yeah. The thing is, I didn't have the
6:13
Dorna: title, so I didn't know what I want
6:15
Dorna: to become is an architect. That was the
6:18
Dorna: whole, but I knew that I love to
6:22
Dorna: create and I love to do things within
6:25
Dorna: the spaces. For many years, I had a
6:28
Dorna: title for myself. I called myself the psychologist
6:31
Dorna: of spaces because I really thought that I
6:34
Dorna: still believe that that you can change somebody's
6:38
Dorna: feelings, emotion, habits, a lot of things about
6:40
Dorna: how easy your life is by having a
6:43
Dorna: good space. And then as a child, I
6:45
Dorna: called myself psychologist at the space of course.
6:47
Dorna: But then my best friend's dad was an
6:50
Dorna: architect. And one evening I saw a book
6:54
Dorna: in their home, which is the drawing of,
6:56
Dorna: or a picture of the Frank Lloyd's, Wright's,
7:01
Dorna: waterfall house, the fountain house. And then when
7:03
Dorna: I saw that, this interaction between outside, inside
7:06
Dorna: was so interesting and how the waterfall had
7:09
Dorna: gone under that building and all of these
7:12
Dorna: beautiful things. So I went to his toilet
7:15
Dorna: and said, what should I do? What kind
7:17
Dorna: of profession should I have to be able
7:20
Dorna: to do this? And he said, you need
7:22
Dorna: to be an architect. That was the day
7:24
Dorna: I I realized I need to be an
7:27
Dorna: architect. You know?
7:29
Joseph Liu: For those people out there like me who
7:31
Joseph Liu: have never been to Iran, how would you
7:34
Joseph Liu: describe the overall professional scene in the city
7:37
Joseph Liu: where you grew up there?
7:40
Dorna: When I left Iran, I was quite young,
7:42
Dorna: so I was twenty four. So I can't
7:44
Dorna: really say much about the professional scene because
7:48
Dorna: I worked only a few years there. But
7:50
Dorna: generally speaking, architecture and civil engineering, which are
7:55
Dorna: the dominant jobs on the field, are quite
7:58
Dorna: masculine. So you don't see so many females
8:01
Dorna: on the we didn't. I don't know. Maybe
8:04
Dorna: now it has changed. All I remember was
8:07
Dorna: that you needed some sort of a support
8:09
Dorna: from somebody, but then that can also come
8:11
Dorna: from the fact that I was very young.
8:13
Dorna: So I needed mentors and people who would
8:16
Dorna: help me. Generally, Iran is a country full
8:20
Dorna: of architecture, and there's a big history and,
8:25
Dorna: like, a very rich history, about architecture in
8:28
Dorna: that part of the world. So you learn
8:32
Dorna: a lot, but it's not practiced that way,
8:34
Dorna: of course, anymore.
8:36
Joseph Liu: What ultimately led you to decide to leave
8:39
Joseph Liu: Iran behind?
8:42
Dorna: I don't think you make this decision in
8:44
Dorna: Iran. You kind of are growing with it,
8:48
Dorna: which is a kind of a sad part
8:50
Dorna: of the story because it's according to me,
8:52
Dorna: one of the best places to be. Due
8:54
Dorna: to the whole situation in that part, in
8:57
Dorna: the Middle East, with all the complication it
9:00
Dorna: has, I think as a child, if you
9:03
Dorna: have the ability to grow and learn and
9:07
Dorna: are curious enough to live, you are kind
9:09
Dorna: of encouraged to do it from a very
9:11
Dorna: young age. And that was the same for
9:13
Dorna: me. So I learned English when I was
9:15
Dorna: quite young. I started learning English at a
9:17
Dorna: very young age. And then before you know,
9:20
Dorna: when I felt like everything is settled and
9:23
Dorna: I am now an architect and I can
9:25
Dorna: take care of myself and everything, it was
9:27
Dorna: time to be curious and leave. So, you
9:30
Dorna: know, I cannot really say it was a
9:32
Dorna: decision made, but maybe it was, but it
9:35
Dorna: was also grown into me. So it's like
9:37
Dorna: a very complicated thing to say, but generally
9:40
Dorna: speaking comes out of curiosity to learn more
9:43
Dorna: and to see more. Because obviously I went
9:46
Dorna: to study. Yeah. That's how I left. The
9:48
Dorna: decision was not there if I'm going back
9:50
Dorna: or not.
9:51
Joseph Liu: What year was this?
9:53
Dorna: Two thousand and ten. That's when I left
9:56
Dorna: first time.
9:57
Joseph Liu: So this is not a political show, but
9:59
Joseph Liu: obviously at the time, things probably a bit
10:01
Joseph Liu: unstable, sanctions in place. And so I would
10:04
Joseph Liu: imagine
10:05
Dorna: And as a young person, like, of course,
10:07
Dorna: you have a future in front of you
10:09
Dorna: and you want to build and create, but
10:11
Dorna: you are also know that things are not
10:13
Dorna: going to get better and the opportunities are
10:16
Dorna: not going to rise. I already see a
10:19
Dorna: lot of friends who are there and like
10:22
Dorna: imagine the inflation rate and all of these
10:25
Dorna: things are affecting your carrier and your decisions
10:28
Dorna: and all of that. So taking risks is
10:31
Dorna: harder. Hope, maybe having a hopeful future is
10:35
Dorna: harder. In that sense, I think, of course,
10:38
Dorna: I don't regret that decision, but anyway, it's
10:41
Dorna: your hometown. So you have friends and family
10:44
Dorna: and memories. You will speak the language. It's
10:47
Dorna: a different thing.
10:52
Joseph Liu: Just to switch gears here and talk about
10:54
Joseph Liu: the next chapter of your career, where did
10:56
Joseph Liu: you go and how did you decide on
10:58
Joseph Liu: where to go next?
11:00
Dorna: First destination was, Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur, and that
11:04
Dorna: really just happened because I actually had got
11:08
Dorna: admission to study architecture in Oxford. And that
11:13
Dorna: day that I was supposed to get my
11:15
Dorna: ticket, I couldn't. And Oxford just said, oh,
11:18
Dorna: you're too late. And I was like, okay.
11:20
Dorna: Now what? And I had a friend who
11:23
Dorna: knew a few people in Malaysia, and he
11:26
Dorna: was just like, yeah. Why not go to
11:28
Dorna: Malaysia and see how it is? And I'm
11:29
Dorna: like, sure. Let's do that. And then I
11:32
Dorna: went to Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur. I went to
11:35
Dorna: the school, talked to a few people, liked
11:37
Dorna: it there, and I said, okay. I want
11:39
Dorna: to study more of architecture. And then I
11:42
Dorna: started actually interior architecture. And then after that,
11:46
Dorna: I worked a little bit. I worked at
11:47
Dorna: a school. I worked at an American company
11:50
Dorna: in design. And then while I was there,
11:53
Dorna: I decided that I don't want to stay
11:55
Dorna: there. It didn't feel like a place for
11:57
Dorna: me to want to build my future, like
12:00
Dorna: to call home. That's when I decided to
12:03
Dorna: move towards Europe and see what is Europe.
12:06
Joseph Liu: Now I know you mentioned you just kinda
12:08
Joseph Liu: had a friend and then you end up
12:10
Joseph Liu: moving over to Kuala Lumpur. But did you
12:13
Joseph Liu: have the means to just pick up and
12:15
Joseph Liu: just move to a new country? It seems
12:17
Joseph Liu: like a big leap to make. I guess
12:21
Joseph Liu: immigration wasn't an issue for you going into
12:24
Joseph Liu: Malaysia.
12:25
Dorna: When I went to Malaysia, first of all,
12:26
Dorna: I was not thinking that I'm immigrating, you
12:28
Dorna: know, in my head. I was going on
12:30
Dorna: this trip to see what is happening. And
12:33
Dorna: then I ended up staying. Like, I was
12:35
Dorna: not even a student at the time. Right.
12:37
Dorna: So I went there and I went to
12:38
Dorna: school and I liked the school and I
12:40
Dorna: stayed the whole thing. Generally speaking, I always
12:43
Dorna: have been told in my life that I'm
12:44
Dorna: a very brave person. And up until a
12:47
Dorna: few years ago, I kept saying like, no,
12:48
Dorna: what's brave about me? I have started to
12:52
Dorna: realize maybe I am brave or braver than
12:55
Dorna: I think.
12:56
Joseph Liu: Yeah.
12:57
Dorna: Now it's funny for me when I think
12:59
Dorna: about it, what was I thinking? Like twenty
13:02
Dorna: three year old and then you just go
13:04
Dorna: somewhere and you are like, oh, this is
13:05
Dorna: cool. I want to learn. Oh, my God.
13:07
Dorna: Look at these buildings. Because being in Iran,
13:10
Dorna: of course, you have all of these historical
13:12
Dorna: sites and old arch the vernacular, and I
13:15
Dorna: don't know, clay architecture and colors and everything.
13:19
Dorna: And I was in Kuala Lumpur with skyscrapers
13:22
Dorna: and new modern technologies. And I don't know,
13:25
Dorna: like architects from Australia, America, Europe, everybody was
13:29
Dorna: in Kuala Lumpur building something. So it was
13:32
Dorna: really a new scene of architecture. And I
13:36
Dorna: was like this little kid who was in
13:37
Dorna: a candy store. He's like, oh my God,
13:41
Dorna: look at this and look at that and
13:42
Dorna: look at this. So it was fun.
13:48
Joseph Liu: Before we talk about your next move, you
13:50
Joseph Liu: mentioned that you didn't quite see your future
13:52
Joseph Liu: there. What was it about being there that
13:55
Joseph Liu: led you to believe that you didn't envision
13:58
Joseph Liu: yourself being there long term?
14:00
Dorna: I think it was mostly about the fact
14:02
Dorna: that maybe this is too extreme to say
14:04
Dorna: it this way, but I didn't feel safe
14:06
Dorna: as a citizen. And finally, for me, I
14:11
Dorna: know this is not an impression of a
14:12
Dorna: lot of people. Iran was very safer and
14:15
Dorna: more convenient to be at. And of course,
14:18
Dorna: this can come from the fact that I
14:19
Dorna: was an immigrant. So it's a different level.
14:23
Dorna: You look different. Whatever you do, you look
14:26
Dorna: different. And then of course, we all know
14:29
Dorna: being a woman, it's also another minority a
14:32
Dorna: little bit in our business, which is architecture,
14:34
Dorna: real estate, things like that. So I didn't
14:37
Dorna: really see myself building what I envisioned because
14:43
Dorna: I think especially at that time, I was
14:46
Dorna: seeing myself. Like, I wanted to be a
14:47
Dorna: Frank Lloyd Wright. You know? That's how I
14:50
Dorna: started the whole journey, and that was not
14:52
Dorna: happening there. I couldn't see that. I still
14:55
Dorna: was lacking some sort of trust in my
14:59
Dorna: surrounding or some sort of trust in what
15:03
Dorna: I want to build, and that was not
15:05
Dorna: there for me yet. And that can also
15:07
Dorna: come from the fact that I was a
15:08
Dorna: junior in Malaysia. Right? It's like you just
15:11
Dorna: graduated architecture school. You are, like, super young
15:15
Dorna: and
15:15
Joseph Liu: Yeah.
15:17
Dorna: Exactly.
15:18
Joseph Liu: That's interesting. I do think that sometimes in
15:20
Joseph Liu: our careers and I consider myself quite a
15:22
Joseph Liu: logical left brained individual, but sometimes you can
15:25
Joseph Liu: just kind of feel that nothing is really
15:29
Joseph Liu: going to progress where you're at. You can
15:31
Joseph Liu: just kind of feel it. You can kind
15:32
Joseph Liu: of tell that there's not really a future
15:34
Joseph Liu: for you in this location or this organization
15:37
Joseph Liu: or this sector, and you have to do
15:40
Joseph Liu: something about it. Otherwise you'll just stagnate.
15:43
Dorna: Finally, now every day, I'm trying so hard
15:47
Dorna: to go back to that because I think
15:50
Dorna: the older I got, the more I saw,
15:52
Dorna: the more wisdom came, the more doubt in
15:55
Dorna: my instinct also came with it. And then
15:59
Dorna: when you are young, your instinct are talking
16:02
Dorna: really loud and clear and you trust them
16:05
Dorna: and you go for it. And that's what
16:06
Dorna: everybody calls young and crazy. But I really
16:10
Dorna: now hope I can become young and crazy
16:12
Dorna: every day in my life. That would be
16:15
Dorna: fantastic. Right.
16:18
Joseph Liu: So speaking about another potentially young and crazy
16:21
Joseph Liu: move, you decide to move to Europe. Where
16:23
Joseph Liu: did you end up going and why did
16:25
Joseph Liu: you choose that destination?
16:28
Dorna: I went from, Kuala Lumpur, the city of
16:31
Dorna: never ending summer to Oslo, the part of
16:36
Dorna: the world that is well known for its
16:38
Dorna: lack of sunlight. Oslo was practically to do
16:43
Dorna: my master's. My destination was Europe that I
16:47
Dorna: knew the way to come to Europe for
16:50
Dorna: me in my head was to do my
16:51
Dorna: master's. And the main focus was, of course,
16:55
Dorna: architecture and design. This
16:56
Joseph Liu: was general design.
16:58
Dorna: Yeah. General design. Exactly. But of course, within
17:01
Dorna: space. So that's what I wanted to do.
17:04
Dorna: And then I sent applications to a few
17:07
Dorna: universities among which National Academy of the Art
17:10
Dorna: in Oslo gave me admission. And at the
17:14
Dorna: time, I had to choose, of course, between
17:16
Dorna: these universities when I got because I got
17:18
Dorna: admission from a few. And the question was,
17:21
Dorna: which is my destination? Like and I didn't
17:24
Dorna: really choose it based on the geography, but
17:26
Dorna: based on the school. I did some research,
17:29
Dorna: and National Academy of Arts where I was
17:32
Dorna: admission to do the master in design had
17:35
Dorna: the best workshops available in Europe. And me
17:38
Dorna: coming from this background in architecture where I
17:41
Dorna: had all the theory in my pocket could
17:45
Dorna: really advantage, have, like, benefit from, being somewhere
17:49
Dorna: where I can actually be hands on and
17:52
Dorna: create with my hands, not only with my
17:54
Dorna: brain. And that opportunity was hundred percent available
17:58
Dorna: in Oslo. I took that chance and I
18:01
Dorna: went there, and I can say it was
18:03
Dorna: one of the best experiences. Those two years
18:05
Dorna: and that school, I did a lot of
18:09
Dorna: hands on work, and I learned a lot
18:12
Dorna: about construction.
18:14
Joseph Liu: So it sounds like from an educational standpoint,
18:16
Joseph Liu: this was a really positive move in your
18:19
Joseph Liu: life.
18:20
Dorna: A hundred percent.
18:21
Joseph Liu: How would you describe how this move felt
18:25
Joseph Liu: compared to your move going from Iran to
18:28
Joseph Liu: Malaysia? Was it the same? Is this one
18:30
Joseph Liu: of those quite modular skills being able to
18:33
Joseph Liu: make an international move? Was it easier? Was
18:35
Joseph Liu: it harder? How did it compare?
18:38
Dorna: Iran was different from Malaysia. Malaysia was different
18:41
Dorna: from Norway. You know, every country has its
18:43
Dorna: own ups and downs and, difficulties and challenges.
18:47
Dorna: So I can't really put that on scale.
18:50
Dorna: But, definitely, it was scarier for me to,
18:54
Dorna: this time, move. And one thing that was
18:58
Dorna: very apparent and immediately, tangible was difference in
19:03
Dorna: the culture. I came from a culture that
19:05
Dorna: was very giving and very social and very
19:09
Dorna: warm and open to a culture that was
19:11
Dorna: quite preserved, way colder than my hometown and
19:15
Dorna: things like that. So it was a challenge
19:17
Dorna: to figure out what's now or how. There
19:21
Dorna: are these unwritten rules, I said, or social,
19:26
Dorna: aspects that you have to learn or social
19:29
Dorna: codes that you have to crack. That was
19:31
Dorna: a challenge.
19:35
Joseph Liu: You've touched on this. And I wouldn't mind
19:38
Joseph Liu: going a little deeper into this because I
19:39
Joseph Liu: think it's a realistic consideration when you're moving
19:42
Joseph Liu: countries. You've talked about being a minority, both
19:46
Joseph Liu: first of all, as a female in a
19:48
Joseph Liu: quite male heavy industry, but also a minority
19:52
Joseph Liu: in the sense of being a minority as
19:54
Joseph Liu: an immigrant in Oslo. I was looking up
19:57
Joseph Liu: some stats on this and I was actually
19:59
Joseph Liu: surprised because I've been to Oslo before and
20:01
Joseph Liu: I had expected the immigration figures to be
20:03
Joseph Liu: lower, but immigrants make up about thirty five
20:07
Joseph Liu: percent of Oslo's population, give or take. And
20:09
Joseph Liu: as a comparison in London, which is where
20:11
Joseph Liu: I'm based, it's around the same. It's around
20:13
Joseph Liu: thirty eight percent. I would have expected a
20:15
Joseph Liu: slightly larger difference. New York City, it's about
20:18
Joseph Liu: thirty six percent. But at the same time,
20:20
Joseph Liu: regardless of whether it's thirty six percent or
20:22
Joseph Liu: half or ten percent, you still recognize that
20:24
Joseph Liu: you're an immigrant in a country and you
20:26
Joseph Liu: feel that. How much did that play into
20:30
Joseph Liu: your life there? Were there any issues or
20:31
Joseph Liu: challenges you faced either personally or professionally?
20:35
Dorna: I mean, hundred percent, they are issues and
20:37
Dorna: challenges. I mean, as I just said, like,
20:40
Dorna: there's this unwritten user manuals that you need
20:43
Dorna: to know, and nobody gives that user manual
20:46
Dorna: to you at the airport. You know, you
20:48
Dorna: just come in and you have to kind
20:49
Dorna: of crack the code yourself, and depends on
20:53
Dorna: how open you are to trying. That also
20:56
Dorna: takes a lot of courage. One aspect, of
20:59
Dorna: course, is the social aspect of the life
21:01
Dorna: in the Nordics, how you're gonna make new
21:03
Dorna: friends. Nordic people generally are more preserved in,
21:08
Dorna: letting people inside their inner circles. They are
21:11
Dorna: also like more concerned about social interactions. So
21:17
Dorna: it's harder to walk in Oslo and say
21:20
Dorna: hello, good morning to any stranger than it
21:23
Dorna: is in, anywhere else in the world. So
21:27
Dorna: those little things, especially for me coming from
21:30
Dorna: a culture where you see your neighbor and
21:31
Dorna: say, Hey, have a good day. You know,
21:34
Dorna: it was different things. So it was really
21:37
Dorna: challenging. I might say at times depressing. I
21:40
Dorna: was not used to this. I was not
21:42
Dorna: used to hiding and not saying anything and
21:46
Dorna: pretending that I don't see or things like
21:48
Dorna: that, so in social context. And in professional
21:52
Dorna: context, it even gets more challenging, especially after
21:56
Dorna: I graduated, because at school, everybody spoke English
22:00
Dorna: and it was a really international community and
22:03
Dorna: you could meet people and things. But then
22:06
Dorna: I started looking for jobs and the first
22:08
Dorna: advice I got was maybe you should consider
22:11
Dorna: changing your name. And I'm like, to do
22:14
Dorna: what? Because you come out of school and
22:19
Dorna: you think, oh, my skills matter, but somebody
22:22
Dorna: is telling me, no, your name matters. Of
22:26
Dorna: course, this is on debate, and also they
22:28
Dorna: are aware of the problem, and, they are
22:30
Dorna: addressing it in different channels and media. Then
22:34
Dorna: I realized, oh my god, I am an
22:36
Dorna: outsider.
22:41
Joseph Liu: Speaking of the professional world there then, what
22:44
Joseph Liu: were you doing at the time and what
22:46
Joseph Liu: sort of firm were you working for in
22:48
Joseph Liu: the architectural sector there after you had graduated
22:51
Joseph Liu: from the National Academy?
22:53
Dorna: I studied interior architecture and furniture design in
22:56
Dorna: the academy. So the plan was to do
22:59
Dorna: interior architecture, which is less also male dominant,
23:04
Dorna: industry. The thing is during my studies, I
23:08
Dorna: was an artist assistant. So I was helping
23:11
Dorna: an artist in Kielkochen to create sculptures and
23:14
Dorna: things like that. So she was very artistic,
23:17
Dorna: and, of course, I had the knowledge of
23:19
Dorna: construction, which together would be a really good
23:21
Dorna: teamwork. When I graduated, I still was working
23:25
Dorna: with hair. And I also found another part
23:28
Dorna: time job. I worked as a material scientist
23:32
Dorna: for, small product design company called Hoos. So
23:38
Dorna: my work was to research what new materials
23:41
Dorna: we can create to build products and furniture
23:45
Dorna: with, which was a very, very fun job.
23:48
Dorna: But, unfortunately, I could not keep any of
23:51
Dorna: these two if I wanted to stay in
23:54
Dorna: Oslo because I was, after all, an immigrant.
23:58
Dorna: And coming from the Middle East, I needed
24:01
Dorna: a visa. Ah. And for that, there were,
24:06
Dorna: rules and regulations. According to the rules, I
24:10
Dorna: needed a full time job or a job
24:12
Dorna: that was above eighty percent within my field
24:16
Dorna: of studies. So I ended up working as
24:19
Dorna: an interior architect in a firm that is
24:22
Dorna: one of the big firms in, Oslo, and
24:26
Dorna: I stayed there for a while. And then
24:29
Dorna: after three years in Metropolis, I quit. I
24:31
Dorna: went to Radius where I experienced a lot
24:35
Dorna: more fun working environment, and then Radius ended
24:40
Dorna: up to Studio La Cayan, which is, the
24:43
Dorna: small design studio I have today.
24:46
Joseph Liu: So let's talk about that transition. So it
24:48
Joseph Liu: sounds like you're working in various architectural capacities
24:52
Joseph Liu: in the interior architectural space Yeah. At Metropolis
24:55
Joseph Liu: and then eventually Radius Design. What were you
24:58
Joseph Liu: thinking at the time? Were you thinking you're
24:59
Joseph Liu: gonna just continue to work as an employee
25:01
Joseph Liu: at these companies? Or at what point did
25:03
Joseph Liu: you start to think, hey, I might wanna
25:05
Joseph Liu: do my own thing?
25:07
Dorna: Actually, I thought I will, work at Radius
25:09
Dorna: for a long time. That was in background
25:12
Dorna: when I started there. Like any other person,
25:15
Dorna: this corona event had a big impact on
25:21
Dorna: me as well, especially being in Oslo in
25:25
Dorna: winter, darkness, sitting home and working alone behind
25:29
Dorna: your computer with, no social interaction and things.
25:32
Dorna: You start thinking and rethinking your life a
25:34
Dorna: lot.
25:35
Joseph Liu: And this was twenty twenty to twenty twenty
25:37
Joseph Liu: one is when you were there.
25:38
Dorna: Yeah. Exactly. And then I had a chat
25:41
Dorna: with my best friend and we are walking
25:43
Dorna: and she said, but if you could do
25:46
Dorna: anything, like if you had the means to
25:48
Dorna: do anything you want to do, what would
25:50
Dorna: you do? And I said, oh, I wish
25:52
Dorna: then I would start my own studio. And
25:55
Dorna: then she's like, why don't you? And I'm
25:58
Dorna: like, well, I can't. And the whole thought
26:03
Dorna: began. So it was a corona wish list,
26:07
Dorna: let's say. Of course, I pursued it. I
26:10
Dorna: did some research. I saved money, you know,
26:13
Dorna: all of the ABCs of let's do this
26:16
Dorna: and let's be brave about it. And of
26:18
Dorna: course, I can fail or not.
26:23
Joseph Liu: What was appealing about the idea of starting
26:27
Joseph Liu: your own studio compared to working for an
26:30
Joseph Liu: established firm?
26:34
Dorna: The biggest thing was the freedom of having
26:39
Dorna: a vision. Everybody who is in design or
26:42
Dorna: architecture is also aware of the fact that,
26:47
Dorna: there are so many different signatures in design.
26:50
Dorna: And when you work in big firms, you
26:53
Dorna: kind of lose that, signature of your own.
26:57
Dorna: If you want to have that kind of
26:59
Dorna: vision and think in a very specific way
27:03
Dorna: or challenge some specific things, you need to
27:08
Dorna: either be very lucky or to kind of
27:13
Dorna: work with a very, very smaller team of
27:15
Dorna: people. And that's kind of what I decided
27:18
Dorna: to do, to change direction and work with
27:20
Dorna: a smaller team. It sounds like I'm one
27:23
Dorna: person, but in architecture, you are never one
27:25
Dorna: person. That's the whole thing. You always have
27:28
Dorna: a team. But of course, now I handpick
27:31
Dorna: that team.
27:32
Joseph Liu: And if you can go back in time
27:35
Joseph Liu: for a moment, Dorna, when you think back
27:38
Joseph Liu: to those early days of making that decision
27:42
Joseph Liu: to officially make the transition from employee to
27:45
Joseph Liu: entrepreneur, what excited you about it and what
27:48
Joseph Liu: scared you about branching off on your own?
27:51
Dorna: There were, of course, two things. One that,
27:54
Dorna: what if I can't what if I can't
27:57
Dorna: deliver? Because, okay, I knew I can do
27:59
Dorna: a project a to zed, and I know
28:01
Dorna: my abilities and everything and the skills, but
28:04
Dorna: I also knew it takes a lot to
28:06
Dorna: deliver a good project. And my colleagues at
28:10
Dorna: the firms I've been working with, they're working
28:12
Dorna: day and night to do that, and I
28:13
Dorna: was a part of that team doing it.
28:15
Dorna: And now I had to be that team
28:18
Dorna: myself, and then that was the scary part.
28:22
Dorna: And all of course, like anybody else, financial
28:26
Dorna: worries. I won't have a paycheck, but still
28:31
Dorna: have a rent and, you know, the whole
28:33
Dorna: bills to pay. So what if I cannot
28:36
Dorna: earn money? What would happen? But that is
28:40
Dorna: the day you learn that either you are
28:42
Dorna: brave to do it or you just have
28:44
Dorna: to leave it, you know? So I decided
28:46
Dorna: to just be brave and do it. Exciting?
28:52
Dorna: Oh, creating, I think, but that's always exciting
28:56
Dorna: for me. It doesn't really matter what team
28:59
Dorna: I am in. I think that the moment
29:01
Dorna: you tell me that there's a possibility that
29:03
Dorna: I can create, like, I'm above the skies
29:08
Dorna: all over. Creating is what drives the whole
29:14
Dorna: car.
29:17
Joseph Liu: Before we talk about some of the things
29:19
Joseph Liu: you've learned along the way of your career
29:21
Joseph Liu: journey, you did make one more change, which
29:24
Joseph Liu: is why you're not in Oslo doing this
29:26
Joseph Liu: interview and you're actually in Amsterdam. What prompted
29:30
Joseph Liu: you to make that move?
29:32
Dorna: Yes. I moved to Amsterdam. I think this
29:34
Dorna: decision was really about reinventing myself and not
29:40
Dorna: in as an architect only, but as a
29:42
Dorna: person. I spent a decade in Oslo, and
29:46
Dorna: I met fantastic people, and I built a
29:48
Dorna: lot of things there. And then, I also
29:51
Dorna: had a lot of opportunities to learn, I
29:54
Dorna: would say. But when I was successful a
29:58
Dorna: year ago there and I was looking at
30:00
Dorna: my future, I thought to myself, so is
30:03
Dorna: this it? Am I now happy and this
30:06
Dorna: is, like, where I want to be and
30:08
Dorna: who I want to be and what I
30:10
Dorna: want to have? I felt not. I felt
30:14
Dorna: I'm missing something. And then I started actually
30:18
Dorna: digging in and seeing what I want to
30:20
Dorna: do then about it. What is it that
30:23
Dorna: I want? I mean, of course, one thing
30:25
Dorna: also was about the weather conditions in Oslo.
30:27
Dorna: That's also another thing. And then that moment
30:30
Dorna: was the moment that I was like, okay.
30:32
Dorna: What where can I fit that part that
30:33
Dorna: is missing? And I needed a little bit
30:36
Dorna: of a bigger design theme and, braver design
30:41
Dorna: scene as well in my head, more open.
30:44
Dorna: That kinda led into Amsterdam.
30:48
Joseph Liu: I know that sometimes moving to a new
30:51
Joseph Liu: country can be a challenge, although you've now
30:54
Joseph Liu: tackled that a few times successfully. Yeah. Another
30:56
Joseph Liu: thing that can be a challenge is working
30:58
Joseph Liu: on your own. I know that you work
31:00
Joseph Liu: with a team, but starting your own business
31:02
Joseph Liu: on your own, having worked in already established
31:05
Joseph Liu: businesses, how has that transition been for you
31:09
Joseph Liu: to go from employee to business owner?
31:12
Dorna: Like, seriously, I'm not going to sugarcoat it.
31:15
Dorna: It's not easy.
31:17
Joseph Liu: What's the toughest thing about it?
31:20
Dorna: Some days, I feel like the toughest thing
31:22
Dorna: is waking up to nothing. There is no
31:26
Dorna: project. There is no potential project or potential
31:29
Dorna: collaborator or potential anything, but you still are
31:33
Dorna: so enthusiastic about doing it that you wake
31:36
Dorna: up and you hit something and you find
31:39
Dorna: something and you make a good day out
31:41
Dorna: of it. I think the challenge is to
31:43
Dorna: stay enthusiastic and that's easier said than done,
31:48
Dorna: seriously. I mean, now we talk about all
31:52
Dorna: of these moves and that I made and
31:54
Dorna: we call it successful, but it's not also
31:57
Dorna: easy to do that, to come from one
31:59
Dorna: country to another and to start over, to
32:02
Dorna: have no friend, have no family, have no
32:05
Dorna: support, have nothing to lean on, to start
32:09
Dorna: over, go out and be brave enough to
32:11
Dorna: just say, hey. My name is Dorna. You
32:14
Dorna: know? So and I want to be your
32:17
Dorna: friend or I want to work with you
32:19
Dorna: or any other sentence that comes after. Some
32:23
Dorna: cultures are more open. It makes it easier.
32:25
Dorna: Some cultures are not. It's really challenging to
32:29
Dorna: do it. And I cannot say that I'm
32:32
Dorna: successful, yet or not. I have a lot
32:35
Dorna: of successes. There is still a long, long,
32:39
Dorna: long way to go.
32:41
Joseph Liu: It does take a lot of energy to
32:43
Joseph Liu: start over and to rebuild, to reacclimate yourself
32:47
Joseph Liu: to a new culture and to find new
32:49
Joseph Liu: friends. How have you found the social scene
32:53
Joseph Liu: there? And also what I'm gonna describe as
32:56
Joseph Liu: the professional social scene where your ability to
33:00
Joseph Liu: network with other people in the industry, how
33:03
Joseph Liu: has that been for you there in Amsterdam?
33:05
Joseph Liu: How would you describe that scene as someone
33:07
Joseph Liu: from the outside?
33:09
Dorna: It is a very open scene. So it's
33:12
Dorna: a very welcoming scene, I would say, also.
33:15
Dorna: People look at my portfolio or my work
33:17
Dorna: or people talk to me. I get a
33:19
Dorna: lot of great comments about my work, which
33:22
Dorna: is very encouraging. But at the same time,
33:25
Dorna: of course, one goal is to be a
33:27
Dorna: part of a circle. One goal is to
33:29
Dorna: work in that circle. And to work in
33:32
Dorna: that circle, I still haven't figured out. It's
33:34
Dorna: like it's developing and it's getting better and
33:38
Dorna: better. I'm meeting more people, but to just
33:41
Dorna: go in and say hello, I have had
33:44
Dorna: a lot of success. They are really open
33:47
Dorna: to hear your story and to introduce you
33:51
Dorna: to the next person who might be interested
33:53
Dorna: in your story and things like like that.
33:54
Dorna: So that is developing, and I think it's
33:56
Dorna: just like a maze, like, or a puzzle.
33:59
Dorna: You have to just be patient and put
34:01
Dorna: more and more pieces to your future map.
34:05
Dorna: It's joyful, but it's also, as you said,
34:07
Dorna: tiring. It takes a lot of energy to
34:10
Dorna: find where to be, where to meet these
34:14
Dorna: people, to send a lot of emails. Not
34:18
Dorna: all of them reply. Like, not everybody reply.
34:23
Dorna: To call people and say, hey. I have
34:25
Dorna: sent you an email, by the way. All
34:29
Dorna: of those, things. It's really like, I say
34:32
Dorna: full more than a full time job just
34:35
Dorna: to socialize.
34:38
Joseph Liu: I know what you mean. I run my
34:39
Joseph Liu: own business, Dorna, as you know.
34:41
Dorna: And Yeah.
34:42
Joseph Liu: I think one of the most challenging things
34:45
Joseph Liu: that I sometimes struggle with is a lack
34:47
Joseph Liu: of a support system. I feel very alone
34:50
Joseph Liu: at times. And I'm wondering, do you feel
34:53
Joseph Liu: that? And, like, where do you turn for
34:56
Joseph Liu: support when you're feeling like your motivation isn't
34:59
Joseph Liu: where you want it to be?
35:01
Dorna: I listen to your podcast. But, seriously, I
35:10
Dorna: think that's what I can't because I also
35:13
Dorna: feel alone. I feel down. There are days
35:15
Dorna: that I'm like, oh my god. What did
35:17
Dorna: I do? Was it the right decision? There
35:19
Dorna: are days that I doubt myself. I doubt
35:22
Dorna: myself as a designer, you know, a lot
35:24
Dorna: of downs and downs because I always say
35:28
Dorna: we hear a lot of the stories of
35:30
Dorna: success. Yeah. In social media and here and
35:32
Dorna: there and there. Nobody tells what was it
35:36
Dorna: like to get there. And that's the part
35:40
Dorna: that is missing, and it's very difficult. There
35:43
Dorna: are down days, hundred percent, lonely days, hundred
35:45
Dorna: percent. And I haven't found really a good
35:48
Dorna: solution, but I mean it when I say
35:50
Dorna: I listen to other people who are going
35:53
Dorna: through the same thing or have done the
35:56
Dorna: same thing. And just that makes me feel
35:58
Dorna: like I'm not alone. People have done it,
36:02
Dorna: you know, Other people know.
36:06
Joseph Liu: Absolutely. I think just feeling like it's a
36:08
Joseph Liu: normal thing to go through can be comforting
36:11
Joseph Liu: and reassuring in and of itself.
36:13
Dorna: Hundred percent. Hundred percent.
36:15
Joseph Liu: The last thing I was hoping to talk
36:16
Joseph Liu: with you about was just a couple of
36:17
Joseph Liu: the lessons you've learned along the way of
36:19
Joseph Liu: your very interesting career change journey. And my
36:22
Joseph Liu: first question relates to what you alluded to
36:25
Joseph Liu: and have been talking about throughout this whole
36:27
Joseph Liu: conversation, which is going from being an outsider
36:29
Joseph Liu: to an insider, which is something that I
36:32
Joseph Liu: think we all struggle with. Not only when
36:34
Joseph Liu: you move to a different country, but also
36:36
Joseph Liu: even when you just shift into a new
36:38
Joseph Liu: industry or even are a new employee at
36:41
Joseph Liu: a new company. What have you learned about
36:44
Joseph Liu: what it takes to penetrate into these inner
36:47
Joseph Liu: circles?
36:49
Dorna: I think the biggest thing that I have
36:52
Dorna: learned, which I'm still learning, let's say, that
36:55
Dorna: way because it's hard to remember it all
36:58
Dorna: the time, is that nothing is personal. It's
37:03
Dorna: not about me that people don't reply their
37:06
Dorna: emails or it's not about me that today
37:08
Dorna: somebody doesn't smile or, you know, all of
37:11
Dorna: those things or somebody that doesn't look at
37:14
Dorna: your portfolio or somebody doesn't take your call
37:17
Dorna: or all of those things that happen every
37:19
Dorna: day. To stay positive is important, and I
37:24
Dorna: really know it's easier said than done because
37:28
Dorna: I struggle some days with it myself to
37:30
Dorna: remember that I have to stay positive, and
37:34
Dorna: it will get somewhere. But one has to
37:37
Dorna: just do it. To believe in yourself, as
37:40
Dorna: cliche as it is, to know that however
37:44
Dorna: it will end, you are investing in yourself.
37:50
Dorna: Even if not as a professional, as a
37:52
Dorna: person, this will definitely make something else out
37:56
Dorna: of you, and this is your journey. If
37:59
Dorna: you trust in that, something good will come
38:01
Dorna: out of it. I mean, one way or
38:03
Dorna: another, it has happened to me. And as
38:06
Dorna: I said, it is not all the starry
38:08
Dorna: nights. So
38:11
Joseph Liu: Right. Last question before we wrap up with
38:15
Joseph Liu: what you're focused on at this particular moment
38:17
Joseph Liu: and one of the projects that I find
38:18
Joseph Liu: very interesting, What have you learned about yourself
38:22
Joseph Liu: along the way of this career journey of
38:24
Joseph Liu: yours?
38:26
Dorna: Number one, I as I said, I think
38:28
Dorna: I learned I'm braver than I think. I
38:32
Dorna: generally think I learned to trust the fact
38:35
Dorna: that this shall pass, to trust that life
38:39
Dorna: goes on. And as long as I am
38:42
Dorna: enthusiastic about what I'm doing and I am
38:46
Dorna: excited about my future, opportunities will pop up.
38:51
Dorna: But I always thought I'm a very positive
38:54
Dorna: person, but being a positive person and having
38:57
Dorna: a drive to drive this positivity is two
39:01
Dorna: different things. And I could never think that
39:05
Dorna: I'm this strong, you know, that I can
39:09
Dorna: drive myself, regardless of anything and just believe
39:14
Dorna: in the fact that something good is out
39:17
Dorna: there. I think I learned that I can
39:20
Dorna: be way, way stronger and braver than I
39:23
Dorna: think, and I'm proud of that. It's like,
39:27
Dorna: Torna as a human being is better than
39:29
Dorna: I thought.
39:32
Joseph Liu: Well, that's a good place to wrap this
39:34
Joseph Liu: up, and I would like to just finish
39:36
Joseph Liu: up with something that you're focused on right
39:37
Joseph Liu: now. Can you tell me a little bit
39:39
Joseph Liu: more about, first of all, the type of
39:41
Joseph Liu: work that you're doing there at Studio Lacayane,
39:44
Joseph Liu: and I'd be especially interested to hear about
39:46
Joseph Liu: your YouTube series, Lacayane Loves.
39:49
Dorna: Loves. At the Studio Lacayane, we I am
39:53
Dorna: very much focused in, space design, and that
39:57
Dorna: means interior architecture practically in my field of
40:00
Dorna: work. So it's from space planning, making a
40:05
Dorna: good use of the space functionality, and then
40:09
Dorna: to, of course, aesthetics and moods and feels,
40:13
Dorna: materials, finishes, sometimes furniture design, all of those,
40:19
Dorna: lighting design. So whatever matters within the space
40:23
Dorna: that you use, it can be, office, it
40:26
Dorna: can be your residence, it can be a
40:28
Dorna: hotel, it can be a shop, doesn't really
40:31
Dorna: matter. As long as it is a space
40:34
Dorna: that is tangible, that is what we do
40:37
Dorna: or what I do. And the Lacanine Labs
40:40
Dorna: is something that I'm extremely excited about because,
40:44
Dorna: of course, I create a lot of things
40:46
Dorna: myself, but there's a lot of people in
40:48
Dorna: this world and there are a lot of
40:50
Dorna: fantastic designers and architects who are creating beautiful
40:53
Dorna: work. And I love them and I see
40:56
Dorna: them. And sometimes I just look at them
40:59
Dorna: and I admire their work and I'm like,
41:01
Dorna: see this beautiful thing they have created. And
41:05
Dorna: then I always felt like it's such a
41:07
Dorna: pity that I can never share it with
41:10
Dorna: other people. And I don't like this, trend
41:13
Dorna: on Instagram where people are just sharing other
41:15
Dorna: people's work and just saying that credit from
41:18
Dorna: this credit from that, you know?
41:20
Joseph Liu: Right. Yeah. I
41:20
Dorna: feel like there is more into it. There
41:22
Dorna: is, like, this beautiful thing that we can
41:25
Dorna: look at and talk about. And then I
41:28
Dorna: decided to create this, short series where I
41:31
Dorna: can very short, like in less than a
41:33
Dorna: minute, show some of the work of my
41:36
Dorna: fellow colleagues and say what I admire about
41:39
Dorna: them and then help other people maybe see
41:42
Dorna: it as well. Maybe they already are seeing
41:44
Dorna: it. I'm not sure, but if not, maybe
41:47
Dorna: I give them that eye or those glasses.
41:52
Joseph Liu: Very cool. I'm definitely gonna check that out
41:54
Joseph Liu: myself. If anybody who's listening to this wants
41:59
Joseph Liu: to learn more about you or the work
42:01
Joseph Liu: that you do, where can they go?
42:04
Dorna: Of course, I, lakayan. N o or dot
42:07
Dorna: com is available. You can check me out
42:09
Dorna: there, but I'm also on Instagram and on
42:11
Dorna: LinkedIn. Both are available on the website. So
42:16
Dorna: I would be happy to hear from people.
42:17
Dorna: And if they are in Amsterdam, I would
42:19
Dorna: be happy to have coffee.
42:21
Joseph Liu: Alright. Well, we'll definitely include all those handles
42:24
Joseph Liu: and links in the show notes and wanted
42:26
Joseph Liu: to thank you so much Dorna for telling
42:28
Joseph Liu: us more about your life as an architect
42:30
Joseph Liu: and your experiences of living in so many
42:32
Joseph Liu: places and also your recent decision to run
42:34
Joseph Liu: your own studio. So best of luck with
42:37
Joseph Liu: all your work. I would encourage people to
42:40
Joseph Liu: check out your design work on Instagram and
42:42
Joseph Liu: even just your banner image on LinkedIn, which
42:43
Joseph Liu: I told you when we first exchange messages,
42:44
Joseph Liu: isn't too far off from being my dream
42:45
Joseph Liu: home. So I may take you up at
42:47
Joseph Liu: some point on sketching out what my dream
42:49
Joseph Liu: home concept could be.
42:56
Dorna: It could be. Oh my God. That's going
42:57
Dorna: to be so much fun. I would love
42:59
Dorna: to do that.
43:00
Joseph Liu: Me too. One day.
43:02
Dorna: Thank you for wishing me luck. I really
43:04
Dorna: need love. I'm wishing luck for everyone who's
43:06
Dorna: listening because I know they are also some
43:10
Dorna: people probably who are starting or shifting in
43:12
Dorna: their careers. So good luck, everyone.
43:16
Joseph Liu: Well, thank you so much for coming on
43:17
Joseph Liu: to the show, Dorna.
43:18
Dorna: Of course. Pleasure.
43:23
Joseph Liu: So I hope you enjoyed hearing Dorna's perspectives
43:25
Joseph Liu: on the balance between instincts and logic, the
43:27
Joseph Liu: challenges of shifting countries, and the emotional dynamics
43:31
Joseph Liu: of working on your own. Now it's time
43:32
Joseph Liu: to wrap up with today's mental fuel where
43:34
Joseph Liu: I'm gonna share my own experiences adapting to
43:37
Joseph Liu: new environments. Before we get to today's mental
43:44
Joseph Liu: fuel, I wanted to thank Brand Yourself for
43:47
Joseph Liu: supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch Podcast.
43:50
Joseph Liu: Brand Yourself is an online reputation management service
43:53
Joseph Liu: that helps you control what people find when
43:55
Joseph Liu: they search for you online. To optimize, protect,
43:57
Joseph Liu: and improve your online presence, visit brand yourself
44:00
Joseph Liu: dot com and use promo code relaunch to
44:03
Joseph Liu: get fifty percent off a premium membership. This
44:07
Joseph Liu: is the part of the show called Mental
44:09
Joseph Liu: Fuel where I finish the show with a
44:10
Joseph Liu: brief personal story related to one of the
44:12
Joseph Liu: topics we covered today and wrap up with
44:14
Joseph Liu: a simple challenge to help you move forward
44:16
Joseph Liu: with your own career goals. So for today's
44:19
Joseph Liu: Mental Fuel, I want to pick up on
44:21
Joseph Liu: a theme that's come up today with Dorna
44:23
Joseph Liu: around adapting to new environments, navigating a different
44:27
Joseph Liu: culture, penetrating into seemingly impenetrable inner circles, or
44:32
Joseph Liu: just figuring out a way to fit in.
44:34
Joseph Liu: And in my own life and career, I
44:37
Joseph Liu: can definitely relate to many of the sentiments
44:40
Joseph Liu: Dorna shared both personally and professionally. In many
44:43
Joseph Liu: ways, for much of my life, I've felt
44:46
Joseph Liu: a bit like an outsider or at best
44:48
Joseph Liu: someone at the intersection of two very different
44:51
Joseph Liu: worlds never quite fully fitting into either. Just
44:56
Joseph Liu: to go way back in time, although I
44:59
Joseph Liu: was born in a small town in West
45:00
Joseph Liu: Virginia, my parents immigrated to the United States
45:04
Joseph Liu: from Taiwan only a few years before I
45:06
Joseph Liu: was born. And aside from my sister, I
45:08
Joseph Liu: was the only non caucasian student in my
45:11
Joseph Liu: entire elementary school. We were the only Asians
45:15
Joseph Liu: in our entire neighborhood. And when we later
45:17
Joseph Liu: moved to Missouri, I was one of only
45:20
Joseph Liu: a few minorities I could count on one
45:22
Joseph Liu: single hand amongst the over sixteen hundred students
45:26
Joseph Liu: in my high school there. On the one
45:29
Joseph Liu: hand, I grew up in a fully Taiwanese
45:31
Joseph Liu: household, eating noodles and dumplings and putting soy
45:35
Joseph Liu: sauce on pretty much everything I ate, taking
45:37
Joseph Liu: my shoes off when I entered any house,
45:40
Joseph Liu: and feeling rather soft spoken, borderline shy. But
45:45
Joseph Liu: on the other hand, when I stepped outside
45:47
Joseph Liu: of my house, the school cafeteria was full
45:50
Joseph Liu: of burgers, chili con carne, and nachos. My
45:54
Joseph Liu: friends never took their shoes off when entering
45:57
Joseph Liu: their houses. And the social culture, while very
46:00
Joseph Liu: friendly, also felt very extroverted and loud. While
46:05
Joseph Liu: I didn't necessarily feel like an outsider per
46:07
Joseph Liu: se because this is really all I knew
46:10
Joseph Liu: growing up, I certainly didn't feel like an
46:12
Joseph Liu: insider. And on the flip side, when I
46:14
Joseph Liu: visited Taiwan as a child and even now,
46:18
Joseph Liu: I feel much more American than Taiwanese. When
46:21
Joseph Liu: Taiwanese people see me there, including my extended
46:24
Joseph Liu: family, it's not uncommon for some of them
46:27
Joseph Liu: to comment on my appearance or my behavior
46:31
Joseph Liu: saying I look and behave like an outsider.
46:35
Joseph Liu: Interestingly, for much of my career, I also
46:37
Joseph Liu: often felt like an outlier. In medical school,
46:40
Joseph Liu: I never fully felt like I fit in
46:43
Joseph Liu: because of my creative and business interests. When
46:45
Joseph Liu: I eventually moved into the corporate world, I
46:48
Joseph Liu: felt like a bit of an outsider because
46:50
Joseph Liu: of my more science based education. When I
46:53
Joseph Liu: later worked in a large corporation in the
46:55
Joseph Liu: Bay Area. I'll never forget in one of
46:58
Joseph Liu: the retail trainings when they asked everyone in
47:00
Joseph Liu: my cohort to raise our hands if we
47:03
Joseph Liu: regularly bought clothes at Walmart, I was the
47:06
Joseph Liu: only one who raised my hand, probably because
47:09
Joseph Liu: I was one of the few employees there
47:11
Joseph Liu: who had come from a more blue collar
47:13
Joseph Liu: background. And of course, when I moved to
47:16
Joseph Liu: the UK in my marketing jobs, I was
47:19
Joseph Liu: one of the only non Brits on my
47:21
Joseph Liu: team. Now I never really minded being an
47:26
Joseph Liu: outlier. I feel like a big part of
47:29
Joseph Liu: who I am is driven by the diverse
47:33
Joseph Liu: experiences I've had culturally, geographically, and professionally. But
47:38
Joseph Liu: I'd be lying if I said I didn't
47:41
Joseph Liu: occasionally catch myself envying those people out there
47:45
Joseph Liu: who just followed more linear paths where their
47:48
Joseph Liu: environments were more stable, where they more naturally
47:51
Joseph Liu: fit in, or where they didn't have to
47:54
Joseph Liu: try and figure out the culture because that's
47:56
Joseph Liu: been their culture for so long. What I
48:00
Joseph Liu: try to do when I'm struggling to fit
48:01
Joseph Liu: in or if I'm feeling ungrounded is to
48:05
Joseph Liu: latch onto points of stability. I try to
48:08
Joseph Liu: do things that create familiarity and comfort when
48:10
Joseph Liu: I find myself in unfamiliar, uncomfortable environments. And
48:15
Joseph Liu: I anchor onto things that have consistently allowed
48:17
Joseph Liu: me to feel grounded in three ways. First,
48:21
Joseph Liu: finding even one person who embodies the characteristics
48:24
Joseph Liu: of people I've gravitated toward and felt comfortable
48:27
Joseph Liu: around in my life. People who are kind,
48:31
Joseph Liu: honest, self reflective, proactive, and pleasant conversationalists. I
48:37
Joseph Liu: try to spend more time with these types
48:39
Joseph Liu: of people I click with. And sometimes it
48:42
Joseph Liu: just takes one person to provide me with
48:45
Joseph Liu: a sense of belonging. Second, engaging in activities
48:50
Joseph Liu: that bring me joy, feel like me, and
48:52
Joseph Liu: are a big part of who I am.
48:54
Joseph Liu: These are typically things like running and exercise,
48:58
Joseph Liu: browsing through a food market, which is something
49:00
Joseph Liu: I've always enjoyed, or hobbies like photography. And
49:04
Joseph Liu: finally, since this is a podcast focused on
49:07
Joseph Liu: career change in professional environments, whenever I've made
49:11
Joseph Liu: a pivot into a new role, organization, or
49:13
Joseph Liu: location where a completely different and new skill
49:16
Joseph Liu: set or scope of knowledge is required, I've
49:19
Joseph Liu: tried to lean into transferable skills that have
49:22
Joseph Liu: served me well in my career to help
49:24
Joseph Liu: me feel like less of an imposter. These
49:27
Joseph Liu: include things like my branding and marketing functional
49:30
Joseph Liu: expertise, or even soft skills like being collaborative,
49:35
Joseph Liu: respectful, and organized, or these days my comfort
49:38
Joseph Liu: with public speaking. If you find yourself in
49:43
Joseph Liu: the midst of a career or life transition
49:47
Joseph Liu: that's left you feeling a bit out of
49:49
Joseph Liu: place, is there an anchor point you could
49:52
Joseph Liu: identify from your own life that's consistently allowed
49:56
Joseph Liu: you to recalibrate and reground yourself effectively? I
50:02
Joseph Liu: get that you may never feel truly at
50:04
Joseph Liu: home when you're in a new environment. To
50:06
Joseph Liu: this day, even after being in the UK
50:09
Joseph Liu: for nearly fifteen years, I still don't always
50:12
Joseph Liu: feel like it's home. I still struggle with
50:15
Joseph Liu: the social dynamics here. I still struggle to
50:17
Joseph Liu: make good friends. And I still feel like
50:20
Joseph Liu: many of my strongest, most effortless bonds and
50:24
Joseph Liu: connections are those I made in the US
50:26
Joseph Liu: before moving here. But sometimes, especially when you're
50:31
Joseph Liu: feeling like you're in an environment that is
50:35
Joseph Liu: uncertain, unfamiliar, or unsettling, sometimes all it takes
50:40
Joseph Liu: are one or two points of familiarity to
50:44
Joseph Liu: stabilize you so you can feel grounded enough
50:47
Joseph Liu: to focus on the task at hand, to
50:49
Joseph Liu: keep moving forward, and to address the key
50:52
Joseph Liu: priorities in your career that really matter. This
50:56
Joseph Liu: takes me to a quote from Albert Einstein.
50:59
Joseph Liu: In the midst of difficulty lies opportunity. Find
51:03
Joseph Liu: your center and use that as your anchor.
51:08
Joseph Liu: So my challenge to you, if you're feeling
51:10
Joseph Liu: like your career is in a state of
51:12
Joseph Liu: upheaval, uncertainty, or unfamiliarity, is to find an
51:16
Joseph Liu: anchor point that's consistently served you well, kept
51:20
Joseph Liu: you grounded, or just helped you feel more
51:22
Joseph Liu: in control. Identify one activity, skill set, person,
51:27
Joseph Liu: or place you can reconnect with regularly to
51:31
Joseph Liu: create that sense of familiarity that serves as
51:33
Joseph Liu: a source of comfort, confidence, and certainty as
51:37
Joseph Liu: you face those professional and personal challenges around
51:40
Joseph Liu: you. If you have some thoughts or a
51:42
Joseph Liu: question about career transitions you'd like to share,
51:45
Joseph Liu: I'd welcome you leaving me a voice mail
51:47
Joseph Liu: with your thoughts at career relaunch dot net
51:49
Joseph Liu: slash one zero three, where you can also
51:51
Joseph Liu: find a summary of my chat with Dorna
51:53
Joseph Liu: and learn more about her. Again, that's career
51:55
Joseph Liu: relaunch dot net slash one zero three. And
51:58
Joseph Liu: if you enjoyed this conversation, I'd appreciate you
52:01
Joseph Liu: leaving a five star review on Spotify or
52:03
Joseph Liu: Apple Podcasts. That's also the best way to
52:05
Joseph Liu: support the show and help other professionals relaunching
52:08
Joseph Liu: their careers to find this podcast. Be sure
52:11
Joseph Liu: to follow the show so new Career Relaunch
52:13
Joseph Liu: Podcast episodes automatically show up in your podcast
52:16
Joseph Liu: feed the moment they get released. Thanks so
52:19
Joseph Liu: much for being a part of the Career
52:20
Joseph Liu: Relaunch community, and a special thanks again to
52:23
Joseph Liu: Dorna Laqayan for sharing her story with us
52:25
Joseph Liu: today from Amsterdam. This episode was mixed by
52:28
Joseph Liu: Liam McKenzie, and the Career Relaunch theme song
52:30
Joseph Liu: was written and performed by Electrocardiogram. I'm Joseph