Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Dr. Mike Spaulding: The Root & Rotten Fruit Of Replacement Theology

Transcript

Dr. Mike Spaulding: The Root & Rotten Fruit Of Replacement Theology · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

• 0:00
  Hey friends, family and Christ, thank you so much for tuning in and happy new year.
• 0:06
  We're going to be talking about a very important topic.
• 0:08
  This is not going to go away.
• 0:11
  There's a lot of spiritual warfare going on that's causing false teachings in the church
• 0:14
  to grow and we've got a lot of issues in the church generally, but antisemitism is a huge
• 0:20
  one.
• 0:21
  Replacement theology is massive.
• 0:24
  When I talk about that today, the strategy has been the same for millennia.
• 0:30
  The enemies of Yahweh have had no reason to change their plans.
• 0:34
  After all, they've worked so very well, right?
• 0:38
  So today we see a situation concerning Israel that we have not witnessed since Biblical times.
• 0:45
  Now not even during the reign of terror of the Third Reich, have we witnessed the outcry
• 0:50
  among the nations all directed toward Israel.
• 0:54
  Antisemitism has erupted with a new ferocity unparalleled in recent memory and it's off
• 1:00
  the church today.
• 1:01
  We're talking about a new book from Dr. Mike Spalding called Replacement Theology that's
• 1:06
  next.
• 1:10
  Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events, defending
• 1:18
  Biblical Christianity, no topic off limits.
• 1:23
  And now, here's your host, David Firazzo.
• 1:27
  All right.
• 1:28
  So welcome.
• 1:29
  I'm going to get right into this very important topic.
• 1:31
  This book is amazing.
• 1:33
  First of all, I want to introduce Mike Spalding.
• 1:35
  It's hard to believe he hasn't been on the podcast before and what we're changing that
• 1:39
  right now.
• 1:40
  So he is from Ohio.
• 1:42
  He was ordained to the ministry in 1998.
• 1:44
  He is the pastor of Calvary Chapel of Lima, Ohio.
• 1:47
  He's been there since 2005.
• 1:49
  He has authored over 25 books and he's married to his lovely wife, Kathy.
• 1:54
  Over 42 years, they've got four daughters, seven children and three great grandchildren.
• 2:01
  Mike, thank you so much for your time today.
• 2:02
  Good to see you, brother.
• 2:03
  Hi, David.
• 2:04
  Thank you so very much for having me on.
• 2:07
  It's a blessing.
• 2:08
  Thank you for writing this book on this topic that I wish we didn't have to talk about.
• 2:13
  And I wish the body of Christ was up to speed and everyone was had a sound Biblical worldview.
• 2:19
  But before we get into the book and it's on Amazon, by the way, friends, you can look
• 2:23
  up Mike Spalding on Amazon and all of his other books are there as well.
• 2:27
  His website, doctor Mike Spalding.com.
• 2:32
  Are you hosting the Soaring Eagle Radio program or are you still doing that?
• 2:38
  That's a podcast that I started 2016 or so, David and ran pretty hard for five, six
• 2:48
  years.
• 2:49
  I've taken a break from that and just dedicated my time to writing now.
• 2:54
  Okay.
• 2:55
  Well, this is important.
• 2:56
  So let's dive into this.
• 2:59
  Now you passed through a church.
• 3:00
  I don't know how you have time to do all the research, but praise God for this book.
• 3:05
  And I'm just going to be honest with you and I was going through this book.
• 3:08
  I was reading just the introduction, just the first couple of chapters.
• 3:12
  It really, just to be honest, it makes me angry.
• 3:15
  And I know, I wonder how God feels about the state of the church and maybe the ignorance
• 3:21
  about how the church, the Christian church should view Israel.
• 3:28
  And so replacement theology is a big issue.
• 3:31
  And the subtitle of your book is it's root fruit and consequences for Jewish people
• 3:36
  and the nation of Israel.
• 3:38
  And there's the cover right there.
• 3:40
  Again, friends, check it out.
• 3:42
  And I just want to quote you and let you open up with your overall thoughts, Mike.
• 3:47
  We are at a pivotal point in history.
• 3:50
  How the church approaches Israel today will determine the impact it has on the earth in
• 3:56
  our day and until the return of Jesus.
• 4:00
  And a little, my heart kind of sinks a little bit just based on the dwindling support.
• 4:07
  It seems.
• 4:08
  But that's why we have to have these conversations and try to get this information out to the
• 4:12
  body of Christ.
• 4:13
  Go ahead and share your concerns and what caused you to write this book.
• 4:16
  I think I know the answer, but condense it for us.
• 4:19
  Please.
• 4:20
  Yeah.
• 4:21
  So being a, a cavalry chapel pastor, David, there are some cavalry chapels up there where
• 4:25
  you're at.
• 4:26
  So you know a little bit about us and one of our distinctives is that we see a difference
• 4:33
  between the church and Israel.
• 4:36
  So that difference really comes into stark contrast when you're talking about replacement
• 4:43
  theology replacement theology teaches in a, in a nutshell, that the new testament has
• 4:50
  replaced the old testament that the church has replaced Israel, that the Christians have
• 4:56
  replaced Jews that there is no literal fulfillment of a national restoration for Israel that there
• 5:05
  is no literal millennial reign of the Lord Jesus Christ upon the earth from Jerusalem,
• 5:12
  the church ages, the millennial.
• 5:14
  So cavalry chapels, me being a cavalry chapel pastor, I was educated and brought up on
• 5:21
  the scriptures that that my understanding it teaches a very different narrative than
• 5:29
  what we're finding in.
• 5:32
  And let me say this, David, I even have a page or two in the book where I'm telling my
• 5:38
  reformed brethren, listen, we're not enemies.
• 5:42
  We just disagree on this subject.
• 5:45
  And here's why I disagree.
• 5:47
  So the book is laid out in a way.
• 5:50
  I don't try to be plomical, I'm not writing pejoratively against my brethren, my brothers
• 5:59
  and sisters of other flavors I call them, but I'm making the case, listen, here's what
• 6:05
  you believe, and this is why you believe it.
• 6:07
  Here's what I believe the scripture is saying on the very same subject, we both can't be
• 6:11
  right in the same context.
• 6:13
  One of us is wrong.
• 6:15
  So I'm encouraging my brothers and sisters to take a look at what the scripture actually
• 6:19
  says concerning Israel, and I think when they do that, David, they're going to come to
• 6:24
  the same point of view, the same understanding of the scriptures that I have that you share.
• 6:31
  So let me ask you this before we dive into some of the points and some of the questions
• 6:35
  I had about the book specifically, I have a hard time understanding how they support
• 6:43
  their viewpoints, especially replacement theology, is there a certain passage of scripture
• 6:48
  that they either misinterpret or take out of context?
• 6:52
  It sounds like to me like there are several scriptures that they take and maybe they twist.
• 6:57
  Can you give us one or two of those?
• 6:58
  Because I've been reading the Bible since 1981, and that's when I bought my first Charles
• 7:04
  Rye Restudy Bible, the New American Standard in 1981, and I've been reading scriptures ever
• 7:10
  since, and this is kind of new to me in the last maybe five years.
• 7:15
  These teachings on Israel that I don't know how they get wrong.
• 7:20
  So what do they use to defend their position?
• 7:24
  So some of your viewers, your viewers are very educated, they're up to speed, they join
• 7:33
  your show and listen to you for a reason, so they've no doubt heard this, but what's happened
• 7:40
  in the church is that allegorization and spiritualization of texts has become the interpretive
• 7:51
  lens through which are reformed brethren approach any of the scriptures.
• 7:57
  And so what that means is when I say that Christians have replaced Jews, that the church
• 8:05
  has replaced Israel, they arrive at that conclusion based on an allegorization of texts,
• 8:15
  they believe a text says something that it actually does not.
• 8:19
  Now this started, I'm sure that you are already aware of this, but allegorization and spiritualization
• 8:25
  of the text started with origin.
• 8:27
  So way back in the second century, origin determined that Christians should begin allegorizing
• 8:37
  certain texts and should not take them literally.
• 8:41
  So that's the point of departure for us is that we look at the scriptures and we take
• 8:49
  them literally.
• 8:50
  So it begins at a hermeneutical level of understanding the scriptures.
• 8:57
  And when you're going to say that, which is what reformed theology teaches, replacement
• 9:01
  theology teaches, that the Old Testament has to be interpreted through the lens of the
• 9:08
  New Testament, you've pretty much just silenced the voices of the prophets, you've silenced
• 9:15
  the Old Testament and you bring everything forward through the New.
• 9:20
  So if it's not specifically stated in the New, then it's just, what it ends up being
• 9:26
  David is it puts a straight jacket on the Old Testament and it really creates a canon
• 9:32
  within a canon.
• 9:33
  So the New Testament is supreme, the Old Testament is subservient to the New and that's simply
• 9:40
  not the case.
• 9:41
  And it creates grievous heirs and well, that's the book.
• 9:47
  Well you mentioned hermeneutics and one of the questions is, what are three major hermeneutical
• 9:52
  assumptions that are foundational for replacement theology?
• 9:57
  Yeah, and I've mentioned them just in passing very briefly, but the first one is that the
• 10:04
  New Testament has the interpretive priority over the mold.
• 10:11
  So that's the first one and then the second one is that non-literal fulfillment of the
• 10:22
  Old Testament concerning Israel is now applied to the church.
• 10:28
  So what the Old Testament says concerning Israel has now been applied to the church.
• 10:33
  It displaces Israel in the biblical narrative completely.
• 10:38
  And then the third hermeneutical foundation, I'll put it that way, hermeneutical foundation,
• 10:45
  it's an assumption that replacement theology makes is that it takes Israel as a type and
• 10:55
  takes that type and transfers it to the church.
• 10:59
  And that is one avenue by which replacement theology teaches that Israel was the church
• 11:07
  in the Old Testament.
• 11:08
  Now there's a reason that they do that to David and that is this, an assumption they make
• 11:15
  is that there is a covenant they call it the covenant of grace that is found in the
• 11:21
  Old Testament and it supersedes all other covenants.
• 11:25
  Now what this covenant of grace means is that there was only ever one people of God.
• 11:30
  Well that means that Israel was the church.
• 11:35
  If there's ever one, only ever one people of God, then that means that Israel was actually
• 11:40
  the church.
• 11:41
  Now people like Hodge and Lorraine Boatner, Walt Key, some of the big names Alice, I
• 11:53
  could go on with the names David, that's subscribed to Reform Theology, Replacement Theology.
• 12:00
  They made, they have made comments in all of their works that in a, you asked for a primary
• 12:06
  scripture.
• 12:07
  I think it's Acts 1738.
• 12:10
  It says, and this is a, a mistranslation of the text.
• 12:14
  In fact, they talk about, and this was Acts 7, folks will probably recognize that portion,
• 12:21
  that was a portion dealing with Steven's defense before the Sanhedrin when he rehearsed
• 12:27
  the history of Israel.
• 12:30
  Well they take that text and the word that they use there, the translation in the King James
• 12:36
  for Ecclesia is church, they translated it that way, and on that basis, Hodge and every
• 12:45
  other Reform Theologian that has come after him, has said that that proves that Israel
• 12:52
  was the church, because church was mentioned in Acts chapter 7, I think it's verse 38.
• 12:58
  But that's simply a mistranslation, it's congregation, assembly, called out ones, and
• 13:04
  the context is, is you can't get that, you can't get that translation from the text.
• 13:11
  So it's basically an assumption or a presupposition that's inserted, and then they're often
• 13:17
  running.
• 13:18
  Okay.
• 13:19
  Wow.
• 13:20
  Wow.
• 13:21
  I understand that a little bit now how they get there then.
• 13:23
  But one thing I did not mention, I was looking at those who endorsed the book, I'm thinking,
• 13:28
  these are familiar names to our podcast, Mondo Gonzales, Dr. Nathan Jones, Carl Gallips,
• 13:36
  Cindy Woods, Pastor Tom Hughes, and others, great men of God, who we love their teaching
• 13:43
  and we're all on the same page when it comes to this.
• 13:47
  There's a word, before we get to that, I wanted to ask you, I've heard other people respond
• 13:53
  to this question, when you understand the blessings and the curses, so do they kind of
• 14:01
  grab onto the blessings and they kind of ignore the curses?
• 14:04
  The curses, like for a Deuteronomy, for example, how do they interpret or apply that, or
• 14:10
  do they just say, nope, that was for Israel in those days.
• 14:15
  It's not for us today.
• 14:16
  David, it makes absolutely no sense to me, but you're right, and that is something to
• 14:22
  pinpoint when you're in conversations with our brothers and sisters that disagree with
• 14:27
  us on this subject, is to ask them exactly how do you explain that the blessings are to
• 14:35
  the church's account, but not the curse, because listen, if Israel received those curses
• 14:44
  or the fruit of their behavior, which they did, they were judged.
• 14:50
  And if the church was Israel, and it is Israel today, then where is our judgment?
• 14:57
  Why aren't we being judged in the same manner and way that Israel was?
• 15:03
  Well, my experience is they don't have an explanation for that.
• 15:08
  So that's one of several weak points within the argument for replacement theology that
• 15:17
  we can use in our conversations, I would encourage people to do that, in fact, David.
• 15:22
  Okay, we're going to take a very brief pause, so much more to get to, but with Dr. Mike
• 15:26
  Spaulding, and you can go to his Amazon page, just look up Mike Spaulding for this and
• 15:31
  many, many other great books, and we'll be right back on World View Matters.
• 15:36
  Introducing the World View Matters Conference, coming to Green Bay, Wisconsin, May 1st and
• 15:41
  2nd, 2026.
• 15:43
  Here's some of the featured speakers, Ken Michael, Olivier Melnick, Tim Chafee, Mark
• 15:50
  and Amber Archer, Laura Perry Smalls, Dr. Jake Jacobs, Jay Seagard, Gary Cod, Scott
• 15:58
  Shera, and Elijah Abraham.
• 16:01
  That's the World View Matters Conference, May 1st and 2nd, 2026, Green Bay, Wisconsin.
• 16:07
  Okay, so much to get to, so I want to jump right into another question on this book,
• 16:12
  Replacement Theology, its root and fruit and consequences.
• 16:17
  There's a term you use, or terminology, metaphysical personalism.
• 16:22
  How does Replacement Theology use this belief to reject God's covenant promises to Israel?
• 16:29
  Metaphysical personalism, I haven't heard that before.
• 16:33
  Well, that's a phrase that I found in Dr. Michael Vlatch's writings, and I recall, David,
• 16:43
  that was from his book, How Does Jesus Fulfill the Old Testament?
• 16:48
  It's a very short book, very concise and highly recommend, but metaphysical personalism
• 16:55
  is the belief that the Old Testament realities or promises to Israel are somehow transformed
• 17:05
  or absorbed or dissolved in Christ.
• 17:09
  So they're no longer promises to Israel, but Christ has now fulfilled them for the church.
• 17:19
  When they do that, Replacement Theology believes that they're justified, it is justified,
• 17:27
  in discarding or eliminating God's covenant promises to Israel and co-opting them to the church,
• 17:34
  but I remind people that Jesus said, as Matthew recorded in chapter 5, verses 17 and 18,
• 17:42
  that he came to fulfill the law and the prophets, not to abolish.
• 17:47
  What that means is that Jesus will fulfill every messianic promise, every role, every picture
• 17:55
  seen in the festivals of the mosaic covenant, and every eschatological promise that he made to his
• 18:03
  people Israel. What this gets to, David, this gets to the point of God spoke, he spoke clearly,
• 18:12
  and he meant what he said, and that has bearing on our understanding of God's covenant promises,
• 18:18
  whether it's the Abrahamic or the Davidic, because an oath, and I have a whole chapter devoted
• 18:25
  to this in the book, David, on the covenants of God, and the importance of the oath that God
• 18:33
  speak or spoke to his people, we do not have the freedom, the right to change the reference,
• 18:44
  who God spoke, his promises to, and oath is an oath, and especially in the unconditional
• 18:53
  covenants such as the Abrahamic and the Davidic, God spoke a certain thing and he spoke it to a
• 19:00
  certain man and his seed, which is a whole another conversation, and he will fulfill his oath to his
• 19:10
  people. Otherwise, I've made this comment, I can't count how many times, David, in the context of
• 19:17
  this conversation, if God does not fulfill his promises to his people Israel, which he spoke
• 19:27
  to on what basis do we have any belief or assurance that he will fulfill the promises of everlasting
• 19:35
  life that he has committed to us through Christ? Yeah, we can talk about that word ever-lasting
• 19:41
  when it comes to covenants, and I know you dive into that in the book as well. You also talk about
• 19:46
  Palestine, and I want to go there in a minute and talk about Palestine and Palestinians, but before
• 19:52
  we do that, you say anti-Semitism was evident in the early Church Father's writings. Can you give us
• 20:00
  a few quick examples? Yes, yeah. So it goes all the way back to Justin Martyr Ignatius of Antioch,
• 20:09
  Ironaeus, Tertulean, Origin, the Council of Nyssey. So this goes back to the very early years
• 20:17
  of the Church when these beliefs and attitudes began to emerge in the early Church Father,
• 20:24
  the disciples of the disciples, in other words, I call them. They began to emerge casting blame
• 20:33
  for the crucifixion of Christ squarely upon the Jews and saying because they did this heinous act,
• 20:40
  and they are not worthy of being included in God's everlasting covenants, or they are not worthy
• 20:49
  of eternal life. They were just cast off. And of course, all of that came to fruition
• 20:54
  during the Reformation period. Martin Luther, he started well, but he finished horribly.
• 20:59
  And he was one of the worst anti-Semites that the Church has ever seen. And I'm sure you know
• 21:07
  this and probably your viewers as well. Luther's writings, especially toward the Jews, were the
• 21:15
  basis for Hitler's actions toward the Jews. He used Martin Luther as a cover to justify
• 21:24
  the final solution as he called it toward the Jews. And probably duped some of the Church
• 21:28
  at that time because I think only one third of the German Church actually stood against
• 21:33
  and resisted Hitler, Dietrich Bonhoffer, and others, sadly. And I'd be fascinating to find out
• 21:40
  in America where we're at as far as the support for Israel and versus anti-Semitism.
• 21:46
  Are we at a third? You know, that's for speculation. But let's talk about chapter 5 briefly
• 21:51
  on what and where is Palestine? And who are the Palestinians? You hear this on the news all the time.
• 21:58
  And there's so much confusion about this. But before we do that, Mike, on page 114 right before
• 22:03
  that, there's some very important points that you just went through some history. And so matter
• 22:08
  who is in control of Gaza, there's the same result. You write, when Gaza and West Bank were part
• 22:16
  of the Ottoman Empire, Arabs murdered Jews in Israel. When Gaza and the West Bank were part of
• 22:22
  the British Empire, Arabs murdered Jews in Israel. When Egypt controlled Gaza and Jordan controlled
• 22:29
  the West Bank, Arabs murdered Jews in Israel, the only thing that's changed is Arabs now call
• 22:35
  themselves Palestinians while they murdered Jews in Israel. And Gaza has been a hot bit that's
• 22:43
  been in the news for a long time. So we're running out of time, but just give us some bullet points on
• 22:49
  the history of Palestine and Palestinians, please. Yeah. Yeah. So Palestine has never existed.
• 22:56
  It's a name that the Romans gave to what was known then as Syria. It was part of Southern Syria.
• 23:07
  The Romans gave that name, Palestinian, to that area. And it was really a slap in the face to
• 23:14
  the Jewish people. And they did it on purpose. The Romans did that intentionally. So there's never been
• 23:21
  any nation that any people, language, culture, religion that was known as Palestine.
• 23:30
  Palestinians simply are Arab Muslims. And that's why I included that as a reminder,
• 23:36
  prefacing that chapter was to draw people's attention to the fact that there's never been a Palestinian
• 23:44
  people. It's always been Arab Muslims. Now it could be Arab Muslims from Egypt, from Syria,
• 23:50
  from Lebanon, but they were Arab Muslims nonetheless. And this is a, and if you go back, David,
• 23:58
  the research that I found a lot of the Palestinian leadership in the organizations who claimed
• 24:07
  to be representing the Palestinians in their, in their candid moments, they'll, they have said clearly
• 24:16
  that Palestine and the Palestinian people is simply a tool that we use to leverage international
• 24:26
  support against Israel. Now these kinds of quotes, this is not coming from Americans who support
• 24:35
  Israel is not coming from the Israeli government. It comes from those own leaders within the so-called
• 24:42
  Palestinian organizations. They admit candidly that it's merely propaganda meant to, well,
• 24:54
  it's a war is what it is, David. It's a war against Israel and they use this propaganda as a tool
• 25:01
  in that war. And yeah, underlying this whole thing is the spiritual battle. There's spiritual
• 25:06
  war for the devil. Obviously he's been, since Genesis 315, he's been against Jews. He's now against
• 25:12
  the Jews and Christians. But let's go to, you go to chapter 15. And by the way, before we get
• 25:21
  there though, you know, it's the love of many has grown cold. I understand how that's prophetic,
• 25:26
  but maybe we shouldn't go there yet. I did, I did want to ask you about the two-state solution
• 25:31
  because you say it is a waste of time. I believe that. And, you know, can you explain? We have
• 25:38
  some newer and maybe younger in the faith viewers or listeners. So explain why two-state solution
• 25:43
  could be here in the news all the time. Why is that a waste of time, Mike? Yeah. One word, David,
• 25:48
  Gaza. That was a two-state solution. Israel was leveraged into giving that land back,
• 25:58
  and they did. They withdrew. They even destroyed the settlements that were there. They withdrew.
• 26:03
  They uprooted cemeteries. I mean, they completely withdrew. And look what happened. Billions
• 26:12
  and billions and billions of dollars poured into Gaza for the last couple of decades.
• 26:20
  And it was all used for underground tunnels, infrastructure, weaponry,
• 26:27
  Hamas was fortified. It was a standing army right on Israel's border. And people think, well,
• 26:37
  this all came to a head October the 7th of 2023. And that's simply not true.
• 26:43
  Hamas for years has been firing rockets and mortars and bombs into Israel indiscriminately
• 26:52
  with little to no response from Israel. So two-state solution is just nonsense. It will never work
• 27:00
  because that's not the goal of the Islamists. Yeah, and we need to pray for wisdom for our president,
• 27:07
  President Trump, who is a supporter of Israel, but he also talks about the two-state solution,
• 27:12
  or he did in the past. We'll see what plays out. But yeah, we definitely need to pray for God's
• 27:18
  will to be done and for God to give wisdom to our leaders and our government. And the church in
• 27:23
  America that we will somehow get better informed, biblically, and stand for Israel. I know we were
• 27:31
  just going to scratch the surface, Mike, but friends, the book, Replacement Theology, you can get
• 27:35
  on Amazon or you can go to drmikespalding.com. Brother, thank you for your time,
• 27:41
  Lord willing, we'll do this again very soon. Let's do, David. God bless you, brother.
• 27:46
  Thank you, sir. All right, friends, thank you for sharing the podcast. We appreciate your support
• 27:50
  and prayers. God bless you, and as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter.